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The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living · Building the Best You

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: At its root, I think ambition is neutral and natural.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's simply a desire for more life, a wish to unfold.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I define it.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you define it that way, when you think about it, that's inherent in every living thing on the planet, right?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: From our plant babies to our human babies, all of ourselves have this desire for more life.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So how could that be bad or wrong?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: But we live in a world where some folks experience an ambition penalty.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a woman, a person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability, our ambition is often seen as a detractor.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the research was done in the gender binary, but they found that ambitious men and women enter the workforce with the same levels of ambition.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then men are rewarded for theirs.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Women, it's seen as a detractor.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So then we water it down, right?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was so much complexity around this word.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to level set it, redefine it, and show another way to be in relationship with it.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think so much of what we've seen around ambition has been really dysfunctional.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we look at all the tropes and in the media and even in movies and things like that, we see a lot of sort of this voracious desire to succeed and the cost of that.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I believe that there's a way to be ambitious and it to be a really nutritive, generative, beautiful thing.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the House of German podcast, where wellness starts within.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: The House of German is a lifestyle brand empowering women to live all in through material design and personal wellness.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: We are a destination for women ready to reimagine what is possible in their homes and lives and then create it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are honored to have you join us on our mission to empower one million women to live all in.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Gene Collins, and I invite you to become inspired by this week's guest.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the House of Germar podcast.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Gene Collins, and today's guest is an honor.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have to tell you, this woman is so amazing.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Amina Altai.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: She is the author of The Ambition Trap.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so excited because one of the things I do on all my shows, as you know, if you follow me, is I always ask my guests to recommend a book that has impacted them either personally or professionally.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And her book was recommended to me by one of my guests, and I had never heard of it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went and I bought her book and I started reading.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then we got connected.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And her book is amazing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to show it to the people for YouTube, The Ambition Trap.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Folks, this is a great one.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And Amina, your story is so inspiring.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Your book is amazing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so excited to dig in.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm delighted.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a pleasure.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we are both doing the big headphones today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: We are rocking the bigger.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, yeah, don't mind the nerdy look, but it is what is working today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we can actually hear ourselves and the sound will come out the best.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, this is not exactly the glam look, but but it's the best for recording.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I thank you.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have a book.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: But before we talk about your book, there was a journey to the book, which I think is really important for people.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind sharing your journey at a high level that got you to even be an entrepreneur, a coach, all the things that you are now?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll take you back to the origin story.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I started my career in marketing and brand management, and I loved it in the beginning.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm the child of immigrants and was taught to kind of, you know, keep your head down, work really hard, have the great on-paper life.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Everything will be great.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: But six years into my marketing career, I was so boundaryless and codependent and not taking care of myself and overworking that I burned out and I developed two autoimmune diseases.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm telling it in the synthesized, sanitized version.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: It actually happened in a very dramatic fashion where I was driving to a client for a regular Friday meeting, and I get a call from my doctor, and she says, Amina, if you don't go to the hospital now instead of going to your client, you will be days away from multiple organ failure.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was my stop moment because what 28-year-old gets a call like that, right?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the moment that I was like, wow, okay, I really have to radically reimagine my life and my relationships to success and all the things.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, I went on my eat pray love year to kind of learn all these different modalities to feel better in my own life.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I studied everything from coaching to nutrition to mindfulness to somatics.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of a several year journey, I was just like, I need to teach other people this because this work has saved my life.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And long story short, I've been an executive coach now for the last 10 years.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, hindsight is 2020.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel so lucky to have had that moment so that I could be here right now.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, folks, when you read her book, she does give all kinds of details.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as I was reading her book, I was like, oh my goodness, what it's it's wild.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because you don't, I was like, obviously, you're still alive.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I know it had a happy ending.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're still alive.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: But as you're reading it, I'm like, oh my goodness.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I personally, as being someone who came from the marketing and advertising world, came from corporate America, came from that fast-paced life.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I feel you.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know what I know what it's like to have that run and that rush and that client and that working 80 hours a week.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was like, it took me right back there the way you describe it in your book.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so many women can relate.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so much of your book is about that and ambition.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So before we get into your book, how did you decide you even wanted to write a book in the first place?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was something that I knew that I always wanted to do, especially since I became a coach.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really interesting because in 2019, I was working on an entirely different book proposal and I had an entirely different agent.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then in March of 2020, at the beginning of the pandemic, my agent calls and says, Hey, Amina, I can't take a risk on a new author.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: This book, you know, won't come to be.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we part ways.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being so devastated and crying for like three days.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of those three days of tears, I remember having this moment where I just knew so clearly, I was like, the work is still becoming.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what it's supposed to be yet.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: There will be a book, just the work is still maturing.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really instrumental because in 2020, at the height of the social justice uprisings, I ended up coaching a handful of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I very clearly state that my book is not about cancel culture.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other thing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it really sort of elucidated a lot of the patterns around ambition that I'd seen in my life and my clients' lives.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just happening in this sort of boiling point, pressure point moment.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just put together this framework on ambition.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then for two years, I was just teaching it behind the scenes to my clients.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then one client looks at me in 2022 and says, Where's your book?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: You need a book.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, So funny, you should ask.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have one.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then she was like, a dear friend of mine that used to be a Buddhist meditation teacher just became an agent.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the two of you will be obsessed with each other.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: She was right.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: We like, we met, we hit it off, we worked on the proposal together, we took it to market, we sold the book in the first week.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I share this story because I think it's so important.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: When the timing isn't right, you push, you force, it doesn't unfold.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: When the timing is right, when the work is where it's supposed to be, it flows.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's just a such a great example of that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, a perfect example of that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of us, especially in the entrepreneur space, we've been there.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have these ideas, and we just want with like our whole heart and soul for it to take off.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then it doesn't.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And learning to let go as an entrepreneur and as a spiritual person, learning to let go and just trust the universe, God, whatever you want to call it.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just trusting that process is so hard.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's all hard for me.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, like to me, that's the hardest part of this all manifesting and creating your life.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So hard to just let go.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I love to hear stories like yours that just remind us there is a reason behind everything that we do.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we may not know it now, but it's always revealed.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, always.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take you from the time that you sold your book until it went out to market?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, almost three years.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I started working on the new proposal in May of 2022.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't finish the proposal until August.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then we we really chose to take the book to market in September because it's kind of a sort of a slow period in publishing over the summer.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we took it to market right after Labor Day.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It sold the beginning of September.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I officially started writing in November.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then the book came out May 13, 2025.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So two and a half years of real rigorous writing, but three years in the process.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Which is also a reminder to people.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be patient.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So patient.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I remember saying to my agent and my editor when they gave me the timeline for publication, I was like, Oh, I could do this in a year.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: You sure you don't want to move it up?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, no, no, we could.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, don't worry, there's a long queue and all the things.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so grateful now that I had that extra time because I needed it.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, first of all, as a first-time author, I did not know how to write a book.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I've written so much, you know, short form content, white papers, blog posts, all the things.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things my editor always says to me is like, nobody knows how to write a book because every book is different.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I really didn't know how to write a book.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to learn that in the process.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about putting forth your thought leadership and your teachings, but you're learning a whole new way of communicating.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I needed that time.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you need the time to find your voice within your book.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so your book, you have to go buy her book because you have stories, you have examples, you have examples from clients, you have actual exercises, and you have chapter summaries, which I just have to tell you for someone like myself, I do not consider myself ADHD and I love to read, but nothing is better than a chapter summary when you're talking about personal growth.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So kudos to you.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Cause it doesn't always start out that way that this is the format.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: The chapter summary is incredible.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I I needed that too, right?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like to put the period on the end of the sentence.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so just to be like, wait, what did I learn?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how my brain works as well.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad it resonated.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it so did.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so practical.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing's better than a practical book with examples.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious how you felt.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things for me is like as a coach, right?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and I coach a lot of like highly ambitious, highly successful women, and we live so much in our heads and we can intellectualize things so much.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was very important to me that the book was filled with exercises so we could take it from the head and really embody it.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it becomes this new neural pathway that's just a default setting for us versus an idea that we've just let stay in the intellectual realm.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you talk about mindset, you talk about how does your body feel, you talk about so many things.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about this later.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about happiness versus contentment, like things that really make you go inward.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just here are your practical steps.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, here is ambition.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you fall on the side of ambition?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are you in the painful ambition part or are you in the purposeful ambitious part?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where are you?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So ambition.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what's so ironic about this is when your book came to me, which is why I believe like the universe is everything.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're speaking all the time.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you just be quiet and listen, so when I was told about your book by Lee Burgess, one of our guests, the day before I had been at dinner with a girlfriend and we had a debate about the word ambition.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, when she told me about your book, and this woman is, you know, we were both executives.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I worked for her for years.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: She worked in corporate America for 35 years, you know, ran a team, like huge executive.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a whole debate about the word ambition.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a meaning of ambition.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she went on to like stake in the ground.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a negative term, on and on and on.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm letting her go and go and go.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you do know that that word is in my target audience definition.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, my target audience definition is that I help ambitious women at a crossroads.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, so I don't look at it like it's a negative word.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we had this whole debate.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I heard about your book.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is perfect.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am meant to read your book to understand more.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can we?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, want to send her my book.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, can I get an email address just you know over a little audio book to her?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's so I was like, it's such an interesting content because I had never thought before I had this debate with her.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what do you mean, ambition?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you are a high power female executive.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: You you don't think ambition is good.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think you got to where you are?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So so big.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So so many questions about you.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Can we start with this concept that ambition is neutral and natural?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, like you, a lot of folks either feel that ambition is a negative thing and a drawback, or it's a positive thing.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was socializing the book, people kind of inevitably fell into two camps.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Camp A was I'm really ambitious, but then ambition has been expensive, and that was my story.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or camp B was, I've seen this really negative experience of ambition.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I renounce it altogether, I reject it.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think another way it's possible and necessary.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So at its root, I think ambition is neutral and natural.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's simply a desire for more life, a wish to unfold.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I define it.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you define it that way, when you think about it, that's inherent in every living thing on the planet, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: From our plant babies to our human babies, all of our cells have this desire for more life.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So how could that be bad or wrong?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But we live in a world where some folks experience an ambition penalty.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a woman, a person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability, our ambition is often seen as a detractor.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the research was done in the gender binary, but they found that ambitious men and women enter the workforce with the same levels of ambition.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then men are rewarded for theirs.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Women, it's seen as a detractor.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So then we water it down, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was so much complexity around this word.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to level set it, redefine it, and show another way to be in relationship with it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think so much of what we've seen around ambition has been really dysfunctional.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we look at all the tropes and in the media and even in movies and things like that, we see a lot of sort of this voracious desire to succeed and the cost of that.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I believe that there's a way to be ambitious and it to be a really nutritive, generative, beautiful thing.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Which is so true.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then you define different types of ambition.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have painful ambition and we have purposeful ambition.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about those two.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because painful ambition, I was like, oh, I I can totally relate to that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I hadn't really thought of purposeful ambition the way that you frame it up.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So though I think ambition is neutral and natural, there's two orientations for our ambition.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is painful ambition.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when our ambition is driven by a core wound.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there are five core wounds, and let me tell you all about them.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So there's rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And core wounds are a very human rite of passage.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the initial injury of the psyche that happens in our formative years.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it happens in our families, even if you have the most amazing parents.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it happens on the playground or vicariously through watching other folks.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we all have these initial injuries of the psyche.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: One of mine is rejection, the other is betrayal.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of those wounds, we wear a corresponding mask.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have a rejection wound, the mask you wear is avoidance.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a betrayal wound, the mask you wears control.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And most of us build our ambition upon those core wounds and masks.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's painful ambition because we're seeking everything outside of ourselves to heal a wound that is actually on the inside.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many examples of this in the media.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like one example that I talk about in the book because it was so present when I was writing the book was Sam Bankman-Fried and the infamous FTX scandal.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember this?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a wild story to me.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild for so many reasons.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So Sam Bankman-Fried was hailed the boy wonder of crypto because he amassed wealth nearly faster than anybody in history.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he raised a ton of venture money.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sequoia was like a big backer for him.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember this story so clearly because he was in this pitch meeting with Sequoia Capital, which is like a really illustrious venture fund to be, you know, a part of.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he's in the, he's in the meeting and he's playing League of Legends.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just remember reading this article being like, if any woman rolled up to that room and played League of Legends, do you think that we would get our slice of the 2.7% of VC funding?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: No way, right?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: But they were super impressed with his irreverence.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they were like, here's a check.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, he builds this business on risky trading practices that aren't exactly legal in the US.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, you know, people catch wind of the fact that he's siphoning consumer funds for personal use, files for bankruptcy, ends up in jail, the whole thing.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, he's lost$1.7 billion in venture funding and$8.6 billion of consumer funds.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's such a classic example of painful ambition, right?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So much pain on the inside that we're trying to amass more and more and more and more.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately there's this crash and burn.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, long story short, that's painful ambition.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And purposeful ambition is when our ambition, when we've looked at those core wounds, we're no longer coming from that place.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, it's connected to our purpose, to our deeper why, to our truth.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, which is important.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you also talk about passion and purpose, which was something I had actually never thought about because I am where I am today, because I had a coach who challenged me to be like, what are you passionate about?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I have no interests.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I am a single mom and a vice president of sales, and I am so boring, and I don't have any passions.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was sort of, well, you know, you're about to turn 50.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: No time like the present to find some passions here.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And now I feel like I have so many passions and so many interests, I have a hard time keeping myself like in the guardrails of life.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you made me really think about something really interesting where you talked about passion versus purpose.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love you to talk about that.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that kind of show up, whether it was in your coaching or your own life, that you noticed the difference between the two?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you're such a passionate person because it points to aliveness, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you're like the guardrails are like all over the place.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a beautiful thing because you're so alive.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a distinction between passion and purpose, but a lot of the times, especially in the coaching space, those things are conflated, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, find your passion and purpose as if it's one thing.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, passion by nature is fickle.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is meant to change.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not stable, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I saw this in my own life.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I am the consummate multi-hyphenate.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am what they call a geriatric millennial, you know, one of one of the first years of millennial.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think true to my millennial nature, I am the multi-hyphenate.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I noticed throughout my life I was so passionate about all these different things, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: At one point, I went to nutrition school, business background, goes to nutrition school, was a spin teacher for a little bit on the side.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just a I get passionate about all these different things, but it's constantly changing because it's supposed to.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're meant to be these sparks of light and joy and these like ignition points for moments in our lives, but it's not stable.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not meant to anchor to it.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Purpose, however, is that more stable piece, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, purpose, I love the definition from Stephen Cope that it's to bring forth the best that is within you.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a bit more of a North Star, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a singular North Star.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: In the book, I talk about the constellation of purpose because I think the idea of one singular North Star is super tricky.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But those things work hand in hand, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So though we might be passionate about these certain things, and those could be breadcrumbs for our purpose, which is bringing forth the best that is within us, we don't want to anchor to the passion because it is going to change all the time.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you talked about, and you just did it and it's in your book too, that purpose can evolve and move.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel I know for myself when I got fired from my job and like had to figure out who in the world I was and had no passions, had no interests, definitely had no purpose, had no sense of self.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: The task of figuring out my purpose is so overwhelming that for most people it is the stop sign of life, like right there because it's so daunting.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I often talk to people and when I interview people that have been in similar situations, we talk about how your purpose is just like the journey.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: It can evolve and grow, and it doesn't diminish the value of your purpose at that point in time.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking like I am one purpose, one being, one thing.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't figure out that one reason why I'm on the planet and living right now, I'm not doing anything good.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love that you reiterated that in your book and you just did it here.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Which is important.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so with you, right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves to figure out this singular thing that's gonna fit us for a lifetime.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But as humans, we're evolutionary beings, we're always evolving.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there's through lines, right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like in my marketing career, I worked a lot in the wellness space.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I care about growth and development, which is a through line for coaching, right?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: But you can see the evolution of my career.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not been this like static thing.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think sometimes, though, there's a beautiful magic thread.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be stable.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, it can evolve and grow.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone asks you, where do you feel you are on your purpose right now for you personally?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: It almost sounds trite to say it.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I feel bad, but yeah, I think that's uh probably a little mindset thing I need to get over.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel very squarely in my dharma.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel like I am here doing what I'm supposed to do, that I'm in my gifts.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that there's not growth edges for me.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that there's not places where I can get deeper on the court with my gifts.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely true.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I really do feel like I'm serving in the way that I'm supposed to serve.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's beautiful.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so you mentioned the word gifts, and that makes me think about something else in your book, which talked about like I might not get this right, but it's like your gifts of excellence, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or understanding like your core genius, let's say.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you have what you call the three E's with an exercise that goes with the three E's, by the way.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you all have to read the book to do the exercise.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: But can you talk about that three E's?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I felt like you explained that really well to give some perspective on trying to understand where your strengths are.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe we can go back to this, but I'm super curious.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear about your purpose.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I want to I want to hear how you're feeling at it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll answer that before we talk about the E's for you.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to say, what's so ironic from our purpose perspective?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So smidge of background, I worked in corporate America 22 years, advertising sales, ran a sales team, got fired January 2020, was a single mom.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a single mom my daughter's entire life.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I got divorced when I was six months pregnant.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Was a single mom, vice president of sales, and that was all I did.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got fired, and it was right before COVID and right before I turned 50.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And talk about a stop sign moment.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea who I was.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a second Saturn return, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like no idea.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I worked with a coach and we kind of was like, Well, I I don't really have any passions, but I have one thing that interests me.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I bought a house and done this construction, and I was like, So this house thing is like, I'm interested in this the design, the house, construction, buildings, home.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is kind of cool.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, maybe I'll become a real estate agent.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I quickly was like, no, I'm not doing that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: There are too many of those.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I decided I loved interior design.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I dove two feet into interior design, started my own business, went back to school.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like that was my purpose.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, my purpose is to design beautiful spaces to help people feel better about their environments, to then in turn help them about themselves.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: My platform was all about wellness within.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it really felt like my purpose until I wrote a book, until I started podcasting, until I started getting back into speaking, until I got certified as a mindset coach.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, oh wait, my journey and my purpose is like spinning a little bit here.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And now, like you, I feel very grounded in my purpose.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I really think my purpose is to empower ambitious women to live all in and figure out how to become designers of their own lives in any way I can help them do that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: But like you, who knows where that's gonna go?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I always said to people when I had to walk from interior design, interior design is so powerful.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: You work with people for two years, you redesign their home, you create a different environment, you change the quality of their lives, and that is such a gift.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt so purposeful in that gift.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then when I moved to coaching and speaking and writing, I was like, oh, but the audience just got way bigger.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the ability to help so many more women find their way just felt so much more aligned.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of pivoted and followed that.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you just keep following it.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like as long as it's hitting your heart, yeah, you'll you'll find it.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like I see the through line, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're helping people cultivate a sense of aliveness, whether it's in their homes, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Home is root chakra for a lot of people.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when that feels good, then we can blossom, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're doing the same thing through your coaching, through your speaking, through your podcast.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I totally see why you and Lee Burgess are like same as like from the design to the mindset.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Also, we are you get us into dogs.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: We want to have a sanctuary and save all these animals.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I if you buy the land, I am in there.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I buy the land, you're there.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Totally so aligned.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I love that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Also, as soon as I sat down, I looked at your background and I was like, how beautifully curated.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, it's such a ping.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's such an obvious thing.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it and it's real, folks.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is actually, yeah, no, this is actually my office.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: My first thought was like, anybody that picks wallpaper is just amazing.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love wallpaper.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have wallpaper everywhere.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have wallpaper on the ceiling in my bedroom.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So cool.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Why not?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: We look up when we lay down, right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and there's a home wellness thing.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: What's the first thing you look at when you open your eyes?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And what is that telling your body about your own wellness and just getting people to really think about themselves first in their lives and how are they talking to themselves?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: What are they seeing?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: What are their senses?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Gorgeous.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Gorgeous.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great question.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now you were asking me about the three E's.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my um mentors is Gay Hendricks, or he's really inspired my work.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's such a wonderful thinker.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he came up with the term zones of genius.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I came across his work nine or 10 years ago.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just so inspired by this concept, this idea that we each have a zone of genius that we're just off the charts amazing around.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I sort of kind of riffed on that and developed my own version of it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And really the idea that when all of us is owning our zone of genius, we're really democratizing it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's so important because I think it's connected to ambition, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: We live in a world where we think like only certain people can be brilliant, only certain people can be genius.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And how that manifests in workplaces is as the toxic genius, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: The one person that like has really great ideas but treats people so badly, but we're like, we got to keep them around because they're the idea factory or they're the rainmaker, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: But when we realize that each and every one of us has genius, and our job is to show up in that and as a collaborative, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And kind of bring together the fabric of our genius to shift culture.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's such an empowering thing.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So in the book, there's a framework called the three E's, and it stands for exceptional, excellent, and eh.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So exceptional is where we're genius, just off the charts, amazing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's our innateness.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean we don't have to work at the thing, but it means that there's a level of innateness there.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a child that came to the planet as a musical virtuoso, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's natural aptitude, but they hone the gift.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then our excellence, and this is where most of us spend our lives, and that makes me sad, but also it's a form of privilege to only live in our genius.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: But our excellence is a space that we're practiced, polished, and really proficient.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually where we've clocked our 10,000 hours, what we've gone to school for, what we've made other people a ton of money for, right?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So my marketing career, probably your sales career.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the eh, the space that we're average at, average to below average.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Our brain just wasn't designed for that space.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the coolest, I love the eh space.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people feel like, you know, a little squeamish about it, but I love it because what it tells me is our brain was really made for something and really not made for something else.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much power in releasing that thing.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you can step more into your genius and hand off the eh thing that is somebody else's genius.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it can be so empowering to really understand those three areas.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you can even do that as a team, you can do that as a family.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the goal is to move closer to spending as much time in that zone of genius, that zone of exceptional as possible over our lifetimes.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Which is so important.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw the parallel as an entrepreneur because I think one of the keys to success as an entrepreneur, and you can tell me if you've had the same experience, is learning to let go of the eh part and hire in the eh.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like recognizing a team in corporate America works best because the people in the team provide different skill sets that they bring to the table.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in my opinion, the most powerful leaders are the ones that are not trying to be the best at everything in the room.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're the ones that are the best at their best at their genius, and they're really good at finding the people that complement them to raise the boat.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that in corporate America is very often the work we spend as leaders, trying to build those teams.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: But when you get to become an entrepreneur or a solopreneur, it's like, oh my goodness, now I'm like everybody on the boat here.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I am the entire team.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for myself when I started my business, I was kind of drowning because I couldn't identify the eh.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I had to be good at all of it.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to be a successful entrepreneur, that means I need to be good at all these things.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't willing until I failed a little bit to ask for help.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that and recognize like you're good at what you do and go and do that and shine as an entrepreneur and then let other people help you in the ways that you're not.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not failure.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's super empowering.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Especially as a woman.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's a tough one as a woman, too.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have clients that kind of fall into two camps.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: One, they sort of like struggle to hire out the eh, they know what it is, but it's, you know, asking for help, that's a really big thing.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or they refuse to be eh at anything and they make themselves excellent, even at the eh areas.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I have to pry it away from their little hands and be like, no, we're gonna work on this thing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to know that we're not alone.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many of us that struggle with so many of these things, and you do a really good job of that in your book of making everyone feel.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think is your genius, right?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: My genius is is really seeing other people's.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I feel really grateful.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a sort of a summation of a couple of gifts of like I'm very good at listening and sort of ingesting information, even what's not said.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so then very quickly I can kind of put together what other people's geniuses and how we can leverage that to for their highest yield contribution.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I'll leave it at that.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's super powerful.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's why people hire a coach.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: They can't see what they can't see.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't see that stuff for myself, which is why I'm always being coached, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the value of the mirror.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say to everybody, I recorded some videos for Instagram just today.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have a coach.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone needs a coach.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Don't think you're above coaching.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone needs a coach because we all need that mirror.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: We need that reflection.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much we don't see about ourselves.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And when the coach can make that connection for you, the aha moment happens so much faster.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can move forward because someone else has pointed out something that you innately know you just can't necessarily pull it out of yourself.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: What I always say to my clients, too.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you could absolutely get there alone, right?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But it's faster and more enjoyable together.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about contentment for a minute.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do it.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is an interesting concept.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a whole section of the book that's about ambition and contentment.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so funny because when I bring this up or when other people will bring this up, there's almost like this short circuiting moment where they're like, how could ambition and contentment sit side by side, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because ambition is about more, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: But in our redefinition of it, we can see how they sit side by side.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So contentment from Eastern traditions loosely translates into English as unconditional wholeness or the knowledge of enough.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this idea, regardless of what's happening around me, I have this internal stability, this unconditional wholeness, this knowledge of enough that I am enough.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: So regardless of the achievements and the accolades, I am stable, I'm good.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that I don't want more.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that I don't want to keep growing, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about actually resting on our laurels.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being good and stable as we express that desire for more growth.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: So growth is not a negative thing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost a peace.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost an acceptance of that.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're not letting that drive your life.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, right?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because with the core wounds, when we're living from them, it's this desire for more and like it's never enough.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't know why it's never enough.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: But once you've addressed the core wounds, we can have more of that unconditional wholeness, that knowledge of enough.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're coming from that more stable place.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in the book, yes, we talked about growth being a part of it.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about how, you know, a lot of us think ambition is more for more's sake all the time.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: The more money, the more power.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think ambition goes in cycles, like a perennial flower.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this seedling of desire.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to grow.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we nurture that inner and outer environment.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we have this beautiful growth period in the sun.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then the seasons change and the petals fall off and we wind down and go back underground.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that ground is fallow until it's nurtured enough that we can rise again.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So growth is part of it, rest is part of it, recovery is part of it, contentment is part of it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about the stretch all the time.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which is important too, because you need the rest.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: You need the down, you need the peace, you need the calm.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be you know, painful ambition, as you describe it, makes me think like I started this off by saying as I was reading your book, and I can vision you and going to the client and driving from the city and rushing.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, ha ha ha ha ha.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel the anxiety.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: I feel my shoulders dry as I feel the anxiety and the stress of that life because there wasn't any peace and there wasn't any calm and there wasn't any rest in that cycle.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, and there was no awareness of myself, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: No awareness of my pain and my wounds, and no awareness of anything really.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn the most about yourself while writing the book?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that's so important is that we're always becoming because I think sometimes we can see a framework like this and weaponize it against ourselves of like, oh, I'm naughty.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I fell into painful ambition again, right?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're always kind of jockeying back and forth, especially when we have a next level of becoming.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what I noticed about myself was so I have a betrayal wound.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So control was coming up a lot.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a process that is real out of control, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so few things in our life that we can actually control, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the color of our hair, the color of the car we choose, whatever.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Even so.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't control a process like this.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think it's a deeply spiritual assignment, but I noticed that my desire for control was coming up a lot.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I just had to sit with my inner child and be like, where do you feel like you can't trust folks, right?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where you're gonna feel like you're gonna be let down.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: What do you need, inner child, so that you can release control and show up more fully?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just a constant exercise for me.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of funny.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm writing the book on the ambition trap.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm almost falling in every day.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I just have to keep watching it and doing my tools, you know.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I am the same thing happened to me when I wrote my book.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I talk about finding your best self.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I went through a phase where I was like suffering from depression and I'll be in the car, just crying.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, how can I be writing a book about living my best life and finding my best self when here I am in the car crying for no apparent reason because I'd like slipped into the state of depression.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so even for all of us, it ebbs and it flows.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we are the people that we look to coach and help because we are we are them at certain points in time.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't figured it all out.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a journey.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what makes us great teachers, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if you have known the struggle and had a front row seat to the struggle, it's like then you're called to share on this thing as you learn the next step, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: None of us has all the answers, but if we're one or two steps ahead and we can impart some wisdom, great, let's soften the learning curve for folks.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, what has it been like to promote the book?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful question.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so many.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like my brain like pinged in about 65 different directions.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so many things.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a former marketer, you know, I put together my marketing plan and I started taking action on that last November.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: So my book came out May 13th.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And a big part of my strategy was I wanted to, I work with a lot of ERGs, employee resource groups, because I'm an executive and leadership coach.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, okay, I'll just go to all these ERGs and they'll buy a hundred of my books.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll hit my numbers.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Off she sails into the sunset.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the beginning of the year with the executive orders, there was a lot of dismantling of the ERGs.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so so many of them could not buy my books.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: But so that whole strategy like went poof.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, okay, she's got to find another way, right?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a really interesting mindset moment for me because there was a moment where I was like, I could really make myself the victim here and be like, well, that didn't work.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, but I was like, I refuse.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I put my soul into this book.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It will have its moment in the sun.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I will find another strategy.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I took more of a community-based approach and it's been so lovely.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: So as a result of that, from May to end of June, I lined up about 25 different community events and talks.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it nourished me more than anything.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like as a chronic illness girly, I was a little worried.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, am I gonna have the energy for this?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like to be in at 25 different events back to back across the country.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: How's this gonna go?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: But because, and I wonder if you had this experience too, when you're writing the book, you're kind of by yourself.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're in a bit of a tower where you're not getting much feedback.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally the book was out in the world and I was getting feedback and it nourished me so much.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, all of this to say, like life, the journey's been a bit up and down, but the feeling that I'm left with is just like the most nourishment and love.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel like an experience of love.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I am sure you have met people that have touched your heart, and you're like, wow, I wouldn't have met them without the book.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, a hundred percent.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And just the questions that they ask, you know, questions I hadn't thought about.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I thought about a little bit, but one of the questions I get over and over again is you know, as a parent, I really want to prevent my child from falling in the ambition trap or coming from painful ambition.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I do that?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that just every time makes me so delighted that there's all these parents wanting to chart a better course for future generations.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's just really beautiful to hear those questions and be in those rooms.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: That is so amazing.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you have Maria Shriver quoting the big on the front of your book about it.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And like she's like the, I think we call it the forward.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: She's not the introduction, she's the foreword of the book.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, can we just talk for one second?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's that like?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: She is just queen, total star.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, like, right, she's such goals in how she moves through the world and how she carries herself and how she amplifies voices.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she to me is just absolutely magical.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still a pinch me moment.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I can't believe that Maria Shriver knows my work, likes my work, promotes my work.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: At one point, she did a video and was like, My friend Amina.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh my god, are we friends?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, okay, cool.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: She's incredible.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely amazing.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: She is so aspirational and just such an incredible entrepreneur and wellness and does so many good things for society.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: To even have that person endorse what is your baby and your body of work and your vision and your platform and your way of living is like, whoa.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, it's a pinching moment.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me kind of shy.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I can't believe it.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I feel really blessed and really lucky.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: She is just goals in the world and doing such beautiful things.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't think of a better role model to endorse the work.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also good, it also helps other people because it shows, you know, not to say that you're not a nobody.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're not a nobody, you're a somebody in the world, right?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: But someone like you who has a passion, has a purpose, writes a book that like truly comes from the heart, you have real value to help women.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are on such a purpose-driven mission that you can navigate your way to get there and to get your voice out and have it be seen by Maria Schreiber.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's such a beautiful reminder for people listening, right?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you are deeply in service, when you're committed to the work, when you care about integrity, people will notice.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's interesting because I see people sort of referencing my work without attribution and things like that, but it doesn't make me upset because I'm just used, people feel the difference integrity versus lack of integrity.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And people will always notice when you're in integrity.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're being vulnerable and coming from the heart, which you are in your book as well.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: You share your stories.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is on your bucket list here?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: What else do you want to do, personally or professionally?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it's so funny with you just reflecting back, just what a star Maria Shriver is and what she does with all of her resources, it just kind of lit this spark in me where I was like, I want to be more resourced so that I can do more things like Maria Shriver.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to be donating more money to research.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be, you know, more of the multi-hyphenate.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just ignited a bit of a spark, actually.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you would ask me this question last week, because a lot of people have been asking me, like, what's next?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, I'm in the underground phrase phase of my ambition, right?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I just birthed the whole thing.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had a peak, right?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm back underground resting.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what you just asked me and what you just reflected, I'm like, oh, more of that.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I can see that for you.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: You have incredible energy and light.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you too, sister.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's so wonderful to want to give back and help.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't want to exclude men in all of this because the ambition job applies to men.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: But your book for women need help.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't always like women just need help.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you started out your book talking about that, talking about what happens in corporations, how women's lights get pushed down, like women women that are of diversity, but like women need help.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think being a light to help raise women in any capacity is really important, not to exclude you men in the world, but I think women need help.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so I've taken so much of your time.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I have two last questions.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: One is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to make sure you communicate about your book, your work, yourself, your business?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we, I mean, maybe it's worth putting like a period on the end of the sentence about, you know, in the book, I'm not asking anybody to be less ambitious or to renounce their ambition.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the title is a bit of a bait and switch, right?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying, oh, ambition's a trap, right?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the way that we know it is a trap.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what I want people to do is sort of find their harmonious relationship with ambition.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm never asking anybody to be less ambitious or to renounce their ambition.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm inviting them to be in the right relationship with it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's just a period I want to put on the end of the sentence.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: I will leave it at that.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right, my last question.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Book.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: I ask all my guests to recommend a book that has impacted them personally or professionally, that has changed their lives that they think the listeners should read, other than your own, which will be linked in the show notes along with everywhere to find you and get you and follow you and all those things.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: What book would book or books?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Many people can't do one.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you said that because like two popped up and I was like, how do I choose?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um thankfully, you already had Lee Burgess on the podcast.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I would have recommended her book.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: But two new ones that just came out.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: So Minda Hart's new book called Talk to Me Nice.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's about love languages at the workplace and how we can better communicate with each other.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: She's amazing.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, I like that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then Amber Ray, who is like, you know, Instagram famous thought leader, comes up with all this beautiful poetry and is big on journaling, has a new book out called Lovable.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I loved this book because it was about I'm someone who uh got divorced in the last couple of years.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was about how she made this really hard decision to leave this marriage that looked great on paper but was not true to her soul, and then ends up finding the love of her life.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just about relationships, because I think sometimes you can get pigeonholed in that context.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's about choosing yourself, whether it's at work, in friendship or relationships.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so vulnerable.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I highly recommend.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she was a guest on your podcast.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: That launched, I think this week, last week, the very like one or the other.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're so good at your research.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: She was just a guest on your show, right?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you mentioned her name, I was like, oh, I know that.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know that woman.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that is also such an important book and such an important topic.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I do have lots of guests that talk about, in fact, we had one earlier this morning that talked about divorce and learning to love you.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about the divorce, it's anywhere in life.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it aligns with so much of what you talk about in your book, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Finding you, learning to love you, and learning to find your positive traits, learning to find your contentment, learning to find the vocabulary.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Which is one last comment, everybody.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like your book did an excellent job giving people vocabulary to describe emotions, to describe a process that they might not have and might not be familiar with, and a reframing way to look at some words that might be used in a different context.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna leave it at that.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that beautiful reflection.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you, everyone, so much for listening.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, it's such a pleasure, truly.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's an honor.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Your book is a gift.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, Ambition Trap.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna link it in the show notes.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I thank you and I will follow you.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to staying connected, and I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: You too.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for another episode of the House of Germard Podcast, where wellness starts within.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate you being a part of our community and hope you felt inspired and motivated by our guest.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please write us a review and share it with friends.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Building our reach on YouTube and Apple Podcasts will help us get closer to our mission to empower one million women to live all in.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow us on Instagram at House of Germar and sign up to be a part of our monthly inspiration newsletter through our website, houseofgermar.com.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you or someone you know would be a good guest on the show, please reach out to us at podcast at houseofger.com.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: This has been the House of Germar Production with your host, Gene Collins.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining our house.