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CJP #97: Rodgon the Artist and Youpie Toons · Coconut Justice

• Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hey, what's good? Rodgon the artist and Youp from Youpie Toons are coming on the channel so we can collaborate on a conversation about 2D animation, the future of it, and how we can get through some of the challenging parts of being a 2D animator and a 2D artist just in general. How we can come together and help each other through some of those tough parts. This is my conversation with Rodgon the artist and Youp from Youpie Toons. Before we get into it, remember to go to CoconutJustice.com to get you some clothes that I think would look good on you. Let's go. This is probably gonna end up being one of my favorite episodes ever because we have two of the people that when I wanna have friends in the room with me when I am drawing or animating or anything, it's these two guys that I go to. Rodgon the artist, is here. And you from you tunes Hi Rodgon The Artist: How's it going? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Good. First off, I wanted to after what was it a couple weeks ago, you guys were on back-to-back episodes. And then when I went onto social media, I saw that you guys had started interacting with each other. So I'm a connector, I connect. And so welcome both of you and understand that you guys are my heroes. Rodgon The Artist: Thanks man. Youp: Thank you. Rodgon The Artist: Glad to know we're making a difference. Those baldies have to stick together. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Especially these days. It just seems like it seems like being a 2D artist, you're you're overlooked a lot. And then you sit there and you draw and you're working on your craft and you're posting it on social media and people get mad at you because you're feeding the AI systems and all this Youp: Ha. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): stuff. You know what I mean? There's no there's no winning. Youp: I I recently started sorry, go ahead. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, I mean it's just cycles, right? It's just cycles. Like people are going to enjoy the new thing until the new thing is boring. And then what's the next thing? Are we gonna revert back to a more creative thing like 2D animation, or are we gonna go with the next step up and make like a holodeck? You know, like w what is what is like the process of creativity? Like where are we like aiming for as a society? Because if we stay stagnant. And we don't change things. That's not the whole concept of art in general. Like we've evolved art forms to create more, more complicated ways to create things. In a way, we are getting that, but we are getting a lot of the things that we have done to get here stripped away. You know? the i essentially making it so that people that got to do comic books and stuff like that for a living once now Don't get to pass that job on because somebody else can just just do it with a prompt. You know, y that job is not necessarily dead because the people that are already a legacy in that already have a boot in the door will always have some sort of like coveting to them. But new people are with the ones that are gonna suffer. The ones that have to compete with the technology when they're still beginners. the ones that are going to have to rely on using AI as a reference and then tracing over it hoping that people don't realize it, as opposed to taking the time and being able to nurture their skills to be able to get to where they need to. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: That's my thought. Youp: No, it's fascinating you said that because I had some people, some I guess children, send me their illustrations and like, look, I drew this and I'm and I'm like, amazing. Did you feed it in AI at all? Because I can tell. And like, yeah, I I I sketched it and I put it into AI and I and I finished it. And instead of being like brrrr, right? Be like, Hey, have you tried rendering it yourself? And that kid said, Wait, you can render without a computer? I'm like, Yeah, that's that's the origin of the word. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: Like you used to render things with paper and pencil. Yes, the old and they were like, Whoa Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That's it. That's the old school term. Youp: So the the kid hasn't sent me an updated version yet because they probably realized, this is hard. This is really hard. Rodgon The Artist: Shortcuts are built into our society now. Everything has a shortcut. Everything has a fast track. Or it doesn't. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yep. Rodgon The Artist: Because it's subjective. You can draw a stick figure and make that a whole like a whole career. You can like odd ones out. That dude is amazing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: He just like a little blobby guy. Like it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: literally the easiest character you can ever think of. And he made a whole entire production like out of it. Like he's like sold on targeting stuff like that. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. You just have to find the things and the people that will be have a calling to what you're creating. The more you have knowledge, the more skills you have, the more people that will like your stuff or have the ability to. Same thing with social media. If you do not show your stuff to social media, I hate social media. Don't all those people are eyes. They're eyes on you. And it only takes a couple to give you an opportunity. So it's not about making the money on social media. It's about getting eyes enough that gives you a possibility to even be seen by anyone. Right? But if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And as an artist, what's the ultimate goal? Rodgon The Artist: It's to be seen. Your ego calls for that. You're Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: literally ego-based creatures. Like, like if you don't allow yourself to be like, I'm the fucking shit. Once in a while, at least inside, even if you're not projecting it, inside you gotta be like, hmm, shoulder mustache inside. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm that dude. Rodgon The Artist: You know, like you have to, otherwise, who else is gonna believe in you? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. What the conversation that we were having right before I hit record was, you know, I'm old enough. I have lived through the transition from Disney traditional animating on paper. And then moving on to the Pixar and the 3D, and I was explaining to you guys like to me, I I'm a bit of a traditionalist. Whether we're talking baseball, I want the pictures to hit. If we're talking art, if you're calling yourself an artist, maybe just maybe you should be able to draw. And then when I when when everything started moving to 3D, I know a ton of 3D guys, people. That can't draw a lick. And I'm like, that's I kind of lean with the old school animators and I'm like, y'all cheating. Like Rodgon The Artist: I gotta I gotta step out for the the two like the five minutes. I'll be right back. I'm so sorry. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Go for it. Rodgon The Artist: I'll be back. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Go for it. So Yupe, Youp: I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you've been you've been you've been talking to a lot of these old school animators. What do they have to say? Youp: It's actually really, really fascinating. like in in the span of like three, four months, I basically got the opportunity to just chat with some of like my heroes who I've seen at the end credits, right? Like, you know, and talking to them, I always asked kind of the same question because a lot of these animators who who I look up to, their first films were like The Fox and the Hound. The Black Cauldron, right? They took over from the Nine Old Men. They took over from that and took it into the Disney Renaissance, Dom Bluth, like that area. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: like Dom Bluth in that area. And I love Rodg's dog. He's not she's now in the podcast or we should ask we have to Yeah and subtitles Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to translate I'm gonna have to translate barks. Youp: Rodgon's dog. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That bark means I want treats. Youp: Yeah. Or she maybe the dog's also an artist that has something to say about about tools and stuff. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: but about I I spoke to one line art artist who was the final cleanup artist for films like Little Mermaid, Dave Woodman. And Dave Woodman comes from the traditional like paper and pencil and cleanup, like full cleanup. And if you look back even further, the Disney line art. was all done by hand right and then xerox came which was with the one on one dalmatians when they stopped using the ink lines and just used the animators lines they thought that was a shortcut there was like the portrayal of Disney films will never be the same again Disney himself hated the Xerox process and if you if you look at Snow White not Snow White Sleeping if you look at Sleeping Beauty and 101 Dalmatians you can't believe they were back to back like Sleeping Beauty did not make its money back and The only way they could continue making movies to survive was 101 Dalmatian, which was the Xerox, which was cheating. Then Xerox got better, right? Until you couldn't even tell anymore. And then computers came, which was also Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: a form of which they they don't call it cheating, but they were like, Wow, this is way easier than the way I did it. It's not even fair. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: Like how can you compete? in a way you can say the line art quality is lost, but in some other way people love now one hundred and one Dalmatians raw pencil lines. They love it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Youp: So I I I asked some of the Disney like people, and they actually not some of them are like, I don't touch it, I don't understand it. Which I but some even were like, it's just another thing. They're they're old enough, they've seen so many changes, like the computer, 3D, that this is just another thing. And maybe my generation is like my generation, I'm 30, right? Just turned 30. We kind of I I I remember the Disney Renaissance, like the Tarzan and stuff as I saw in theaters Mulan. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: then immediately Pixar and then everything's three D now. great. Great. Okay. Cool. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah he yeah. After Titan AE, everything was like Youp: Yeah, everything was and which is a shame because I I I loved I actually loved Home in the Range and I loved the Princess and the Frog and then poof gone. but I never thought of three D as a replacement of it or a replacement of a skill. I just thought it was a different thing. So a lot of animators told me, well, there'll be now animation AI, which is his own genre, but there will still be two D hand-drawn Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: and there'll still be traditional 3D animation. There was like I I personally think, this is my opinion based on what I talked, this whole talk of b replacing is ludicrous because people are still doing stop motion. And it three and three D existed, Leica's still doing it. So it's not about Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Think of this now that you say that, think of this too. Like when movies came out, they're I still go to stage plays. Youp: I still go to concerts and and and it Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And there's MP threes all over the place. Youp: yeah, so like i i if I think of it okay, fine if a AI is here to stay, which it is, let it just be its own genre. Let people enjoy that genre, because I I'm not arrogant to say you shouldn't enjoy that. People are gonna enjoy what they're gonna enjoy. But for me, I'd rather spend my valuable time on Earth watching things done traditionally because time I don't know, like would you rather watch an AI animated film or film made by hands? Or would you rather watch or go to an art show where people did drawings like Rodgon, like he actually drew them Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: or someone who prompted them? I think the answer's kinda obvious. but that's just me. And that actually shocked me because I thought all the Disney veterans would be like, AI is a betrayal, AI is this. Not one of them had that opinion. Well some of them didn't trust it, but most of them were just like I've seen it all. I I've seen it all kinda like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: Guy at the bar, like I seen it all kid, like that kind of stuff. Also I wanna point out, Carlos, that I did sh I told Rod I told Rodgung I shaved my mustache and my beard so we wouldn't look too alike. Cause we're both we both have the same black shirt. I even put on headphones. Rodgon The Artist: Hey, hey, we're taking over. Hey. It worked for like, you know, Zoe De Chanel and you know, all those, you know, like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, you guys remember when Eminem was up on stage and he had he had all the blonde, died Youp: Ha ha. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): blonde guys come out while he was performing? That's you guys. Rodgon The Artist: Hey, we gotta build a we gotta build a movement, the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Well the real Rodgon The Artist: curly haired glasses, bald guy movement. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm gonna go shave my head. Rodgon The Artist: You gotta Youp: Next time we all do this together you also have to be black shirt classes involved. But then it's just like But then we should probably Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, that's right. That's right. Youp: have our names like titled so people can tell who who we are. Like little name tags. Rodgon The Artist: No, it has to be like we are this. Like we have to come up with like a persona and then just be like, we are this. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): We are disgruntled to the artism. Rodgon The Artist: What's the acronym for that? Youp: This I don't know. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): DTA. D T A. We're DTA. Rodgon The Artist: We are DTA. But you just gotta make sure that it's not like some weird organization already, okay? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. No DTFs, we're DTA. Youp: Ha ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: So where are you guys talking? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. it again, like You can leverage whatever you want. I I can't tell if it there's some AI content that I do like watching. Some of my friends are leveraging AI to deliver Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the stories. They don't have a budget for real actors. They don't they can't draw with a damn. Da da da. You know, you can stack up all the excuses for using whatever. For me, the if your story is trash, I don't really want to watch it. You know, I talked to I talked to Youp: That's fair. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a lot of my LA friends and they're like, now with AI there's gonna be so much trash and I was like, Did you did you name a shitty movie? Like Rotten Tomatoes is full of terrible movies. What is that? Showgirls that that like that that movie was so weird. So it didn't it wouldn't matter if you shot it live action, if you Rodgon The Artist: The thing is th there's so many sides to that argument. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): did AI, whatever. If it's a trash storyline, I don't really want to watch it either way. Rodgon The Artist: But it it there's so many like caveats to that like to that like whole thing. At what point is it okay to remove people that have studied all that throughout their lives to replace them with something that can create something similar, but will never be able to be recreated by the person that is making it? Right? At one point it's It would take one generation to make everybody incompetent. in the whole world of art. It would take us back generations in one single generation for people to just stop Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that's true. Rodgon The Artist: pursuing the act of being creative and then, you know, that Youp: N no. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Especially with Rodgon The Artist: it's saying reload site for reconnect, move closer to your route. Well, I don't know why it's saying that. Do I click reload? Youp: You go it looks good over here. Rodgon The Artist: Okay. All right. If it goes good here, then I don't think there's a problem. Youp: N no, you hit the nail on the head for me because you said like it takes one generation. Like we all know the joke that when Rome fell no one remembered how to make cement roads. So everyone just lived with lived with sh crappy shitty roads until So you're right, because like it like if you think about like I'm I'm come over from an animation background, right? Like they'll only learned Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: how to do proper Disney animation in the the thirties and forties. That's not that long ago. So if if everyone just like stops you like animating that way, we're gonna like look around and go, is there anyone who can still do this without being connected to the internet? And if the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: answer is no, that's a huge loss. A huge loss. not just to like Rodgon The Artist: You you already have people that can't draw outside of digital stuff. Give a pen, give some watercolor, Youp: I was one of those. Yep. Rodgon The Artist: they don't know what to do with it. They don't know how they don't know how to create a blur without having like the Gaussian blur tool. You know, like they don't know how to create contrast without a slider. It's like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: they'll literally instead of adjusting the drawing, they'll just take a picture and adjust it before they post it. It's it's like The more that the crucial skills are removed, the more you don't get to be creative. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. And the more you let someone else do your craft, the less control you have over it. Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: See, for us that have already had training in this, it's a gold mine to us. Right? Because there will very likely not be generations behind us that study or try as hard as we did to make it manually happen. It just won't be. Like the competition that will arise in five, ten years with everyone creating and using AI as assistants, even not just creating all their stuff with with the with the actual. AI, but using it as what I think would be useful as the rest of your studio outside of the creative part. Right? If you're a one-man person studio like me, I'm a single person managing thousands and thousands of things. I'm just like half the time. You Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: know, like reminder, pop up, pop up, pop up, pop up, pop up. I'm like, something like AI an II assistant that's not creating my artwork, but posting it for me, sending emails for invoices, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: all that crap that's already like that I don't have access to unless I pay someone for. That's the stuff that is useful for us. If you want to retain the concept of creativity to be natural to you, you can still use artificial intelligence, just don't use it to recreate your artwork. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. If you call yourself an animator, why are you letting someone else animate? Youp: Yeah, well I that's funny. I I I recently joined the lawless wasteland of TikTok and that's a whole different beast. but I actually had like someone with like one point three million followers making AI animated stuff look at my stuff and go, like you can do this in Blender, I'll I'll give it a try. And I'm like this is like the complete opposite s like, you know, but still I'm like, you know what? He built a following. He's giving people joy. He doesn't do what I do, but like if we can like inspire each other, like, hey, have you now that you've done so much AI animation, have you tried maybe drawing that character? Have you tried maybe modeling it? Like so you have complete Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: ownership of it? It like what I hope and I want your opinion, Rodgard. But like if AI could be a gateway tool to start actually practicing the art that you're generating. That would be cool. But I wonder if that just takes too much effort and goes against the quick prompt. You know what I mean? Like like s like I was lucky enough to grow Yeah? Rodgon The Artist: Unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't think humans work like that. You cannot show a human what they can do and then force them to work twenty years to get there. They'll never wait. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Everybody's Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: a one marshmallow kid. You know that experiment where they put a one marshmallow and and they tell the kid, don't eat it, and you get two. Every fucking cat eats it. Every kid eats the one marshmallow. Right? Very few kids wait for the second one so they can get two. So everyone in this society is a one marshmallow kid. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: unfortunately, telling a kid person, hey, If you sit there and draw, I already have this happen with teaching all the time. Sit there and draw circles for a week. Circles until you get really good circles. And that just translates to everything in your are getting better. You'll just have like a really miraculous like my god, I can actually draw things now. But people won't do it. Because it's boring to them. Youp: devil's about to say like it concerns me because if you draw circles that's really not great content, right? But like if you if you're genera you're not gonna get a million subscribers drawing circles, but you you could generating AI and this is what my concern is with children. Like I I bet more kids are generating AI art than actually animating or drawing. Like I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Youp: curious. I'm I I I I don't know. I don't hang out with a lot of kids, obviously, but like I can imagine that the tools are there. And what would you rather do? Open up Bridgeman or learn sea dance, right? It's about I think it's like people like Rodgon who's like really championing how fun it is to learn. Like I I I was about to say, Rodgon, I've been following your art channel for a while. And if I whenever I'm animating something and I have to do something on a stupid angle, I look I lo I look at your stuff, I'm like, right. so I have to I I have to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's what I'm saying, dude. Youp: thank you for that. Like you've you've made some things very easy for me to turn And move, so I appreciate that. Rodgon The Artist: I think the the b the biggest problem that people have is that they forget that the end post wherever you want to end up is gonna shift every time you get there. Right? You're gonna get to you're gonna be, my god, I wanna work for Disney. You're gonna get there. If you really wanna, you're gonna get there. And then what? It shifts. So that joy you get is momentarily there. It's Very, very, very like fleeting. You know what's always there? It's the journey. The journey, the stress, the frustration, the happiness that comes when something clicks, all that stuff. That's the art career. Everything else is just little milestones you get along the way, and you hit a lot Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: of them. If you keep on doing art, just push on or doing art, follow every single opportunity you get, and then. Be smart about it, be a moron, and be like, you only need to learn of art. You need money. You need to be able to make money with your art. Otherwise, you'll starve to death. Okay? Money Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: is actually necessary in this, and people forget that. A lot of people forget that. So it's not just being an artist, it's not just being creative, it's not just loving it and not wanting to stop. It's also being able to financially be able to find a niche that fulfills some things. and somewhere to be able to make money with it. Because if that niche is not there, you're just doing it as a hobby. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And even even your hobby, y you're spending time doing this thing. Turn your art, turn You have to fall in love with the process of drawing. Whether you have an iPad, whether you have a piece of paper, or you have a wall, a cave wall, whatever it is that you're looking at, you have to fall in love with the process. Otherwise, Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you're just money hungry and you're trying to cut corners and all the things and all the things. It's not going to be as fulfilling. The same way, the same way you can go to a restaurant or you can stay home and cook and eat. And for some reason the things that like I grow my own vegetables, I cook my own food, all that thing, and I feel like such a boss when I make dinner. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Because I've fallen in love with the process of drawing. I've fallen in love with the process of cooking. Youp: Yeah. And this is what I Rodgon The Artist: It doesn't matter if it takes longer. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I don't care. I don't care. I don't I don't care. Like Rodgon The Artist: Is because the end result is my thing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): my drawings. You should see my my my sketchbook is is full of terrible drawings. But I have some pages where I'm just killing it. I love it. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: And this is what I wanted to like ask you guys, because we talk about you have to love the art journey, right? I had my my brother's like daughter came and she saw me draw and I'm and she asked like how long does it take? I'm like the you can't really ask that. But like at this Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Don't know. Youp: at the same time You're like when I look back at the times I drew, there was a lot of social things I sacrificed. There was a lot of like acceptance that I like y I didn't like what I was doing or my art. You have to go fight through that, right, to get to the other side. So my my question to that is it like you almost have to accept that in like a monk fashion. Like I am willing to suffer for this 'cause I care about it. And that's not a very alluring thing for young kids to hear. Like, I don't wanna suffer. I wanna just have stuff and do stuff and get there quickly, get the reward quickly. So like, I don't know. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Listen, even even if you Rodgon The Artist: Suffering is does it have to be suffering? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Well, the struggle, the struggle and the suffering, I think, are is the same thing. But the same way, the same way, if you are trading stocks, you there's a learning curve to it. Youp: Exactly. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And there's suffering to that too. Cause if if there's a stock that you go in on and it plummets, I know a lot of people that have taken things into their own hands because they have lost everything. Rodgon The Artist: No. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So it doesn't matter what you do, whatever it is that makes you tick, whatever it is that makes you smile, whatever it is that makes you tap into the happiest you that there is, there's going to be struggle to it. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Even if you just wanna sit around watching TV all day, you're gonna struggle when you have a heart attack. Youp: That's actually kind of uplifting. But I want your opinion, Rodgung, because like I I personally don't see me personally, I don't see it as like suffering. Like I'm not like dying. I'm I'm safe, you know, I'm doing what I love to do. But you have to also be allowed to feel rejection to not be where you wanna be, which is in a way, you know, difficult for like is it difficult, right? But that's with anything. But what do you feel? Rodgon The Artist: Haven't te taught people for about I think it's like 14, 15 years now. the one thing that most people struggle with the most is self criticism. They don't know how to tell themselves they did something wrong without feeling bad. You're learning. Like you gotta always remember you're you're you're if you're young, if you're like under 30, you're still a child. Right? In the world of art, like you're gonna be growing, it's not like a maturity level. Right. If you started when you were a kid, you probably didn't even start trying to learn properly until way later in life. So it's not like you have an advantage over anyone else. Right? Or if you started late, you don't have a disadvantage. Because once you start taking this thing seriously, you increase your abilities really quickly, really, really fast. And if you're in a state of mind where you are focused on learning instead of just having fun like most young people, you end up getting really good results really quickly. Now, should you suffer? No. If you s if you suffer drawing, don't do it. It's not the job for you. It's just not Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, it's not. Rodgon The Artist: I have yet in my life sat there and been like, it was a bad day. I drew today. Never in my life. That has never happened. But I also am a person I'm a person that can draw like 16 hours a day. Like without any issues. Just then go about it and then go back and be like, man, I wanna draw some more. You know, it it's because it's every time I sit there and I draw, I'm learning. Whenever I'm teaching, I'm learning at the same time. I'm proving to myself that I know a topic. Right? If I know a topic enough, I can move on to the next topic. Do I know that? Yeah? Okay, the next one. And then until I can't. And if I can't, and I find the barrier and I find a part where I'm like, I can't explain this. I know what to focus on for a week. What to fill a whole sketchbook with. Because I know that drilling, muscle memory, dexterity, and all and everything that I want to do from memory, because I don't want to have to look at a reference every time. You know, I have to drill it into my brain so much. And I'm a slow learner. So it takes much more for me to do that. I have to draw ten times more than other people. But I like drawing. Right. So it's it's not a chore for me. Me sitting here I think last month I ended up switching to digital a couple months ago and I ended up doing one page a day for each layer. I ended up doing like three hundred pages that And and that was just from streams. Just from simple lessons. Just from like, here's how you draw a leg. This draw an arm. This how do this, and then just listening to music and just just Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: but the more I draw, the more I feel like it's just flowing. At at this point it's there's no struggle. It took about three years of just purely extrictly dedicating it to teaching. Took Youp: Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: three years to understand it completely. Like I can explain to you from the beginning from the very, very core of it. Like the very basic lines you need to know all the way to how to develop depth and perspective and ten fifteen different depths of like levels of depth. It's crazy. It's super fun. Youp: It it becomes really fun when you accept you're the perpetual student as well. Rodgon The Artist: yeah. Youp: because th Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Youp: that's what I'm so excited about because I'm I just started my lessons with Mike Bolvani and he and he I I animated something for him and I showed it to him, he's like, Hmm, not bad and he f pulls up his paper, pulls his phone, I would do it like this in a few simple strokes and I'm just like and I just completely crumble, like, my god, it's but it's inspiring. It made me wanted to go back and do it again. And like I think it's incredibly inspiring to look at people and go, Man, they're so good, because you you understand how many hours did it take for them to get there? That's so inspiring. It's like a heavy lifter, right? Something I'm not, but like, you know, you when you when I'm assuming when you're in a gym and you see someone with giant muscles, they're like, Man, that's dedication. I respect that. I don't know, it was it was humbling to see like an old school animator like who worked on Little Mermaid, just kind of take my character and be like, No, this is where it needs to be. Or like where you could take it. I'm like, that's the coolest. It's just the coolest. Rodgon The Artist: I still think it would be a dream to be a teacher at Cal Arts one day. That'd be amazing. Youp: I I would support that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): If Cal Arts is paying attention, that's a smart move. Rodgon The Artist: That would be I'll miss it. Youp: Cowards. No, but good teachers make a difference. Like they like but not even that, if they have like like you, Rodgon, joy in what they're doing. 'Cause if it's dry and academic, you're like a swipe, but if someone screams joy at what they're doing, it's infectious. It's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: really infectious. Rodgon The Artist: And then you you you connect it and then you go like a sort of hear it and then you go and you go my life you draw a goddamn circle, you go and then you show it it like it makes people excited. Like you give a little slight dopamine hit by just allowing yourself to just almost draw and talk to people like if you were drunk. A little bit. Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: as an educator, as a person that you are online all the time, I have to think about like you were talking about my persona, right? So the Rodgon persona came from me being super shy, super shy before. I couldn't I couldn't hold a conversation or eye contact with people. But I wanted to do this. I wanted to be an educator. I wanted to be online. I wanted to like show my face and I saw these people online and I was like, I wanna be one of them. I can't Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: even hold the proper phrase on a comp like in the screen. I'd look at the camera and be like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hehehehe Youp: Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: You know? It took years of practicing and just doing it or just going online and just literally throwing myself into the den of the wolves and just doing it over and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And be ready. Rodgon The Artist: over and over and over. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And be ready. You better have some thick skin if you do this. Be ready. Be ready. Rodgon The Artist: Don't look at the YouTube comments if you can avoid it. The first year you do it. After after that go ahead and watch them. You'll laugh a little bit. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Do not do not Yeah, yeah, yeah. Youp: it feels great where I'm like I post something I'm proud of and then I get comments like I won I won why do you still do this and not use AI? I'm like, yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question. Doesn't make me feel good. Thanks for sharing, that I could have saved a lot of time. Yeah. But it was time well spent. Like, you know, like I wouldn't change it any other way. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Like I tell all my friends, you're a solar flare away from having to draw on paper anyway. Rodgon The Artist: the thing is it it makes me kinda sad though for the new generation of kids. Like they honestly don't get excited to sit there and draw on their notebooks. They just don't. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Generally speaking, there's there's a few young ones out there that are Rodgon The Artist: But I mean, there might still be some, but they're like they think that if they don't have an iPad they can't Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. But yeah, that it's dwindling. Rodgon The Artist: draw, they can't I don't have my iPad, I can't have this, I don't can't do it. How am I gonna share it? You know, like it's it's Youp: I wanna ask you that Rodgon The Artist: all about other people's opinions. And I've noticed that more and more and more as the generations get younger, like it's just much more about the attention that other people will see about their art, their opinions about their people. It's like not about you, no. Like, do you think the people will like it if I do this? Mm-hmm. Who cares? But why do you post if you don't care? Because I'm not doing it for them. To this day, I don't do my artwork for anyone else other than me. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I'm doing it trying to get better and show you guys. Rodgon The Artist: I might be delusional and stuff, but I still think that my artwork should be for me, strictly for me, with my intent, my purpose, and if my jobs with my clients or my projects. Don't align with that, I I've been known to exit them just because it just doesn't align with what I want to do. Because you do enough of those and you end up in the box. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: You allow enough projects that you don't like to come into your you know your sphere, take up your time, take up your creativity, your mind shifts to that shape. And you never come back. It just doesn't. Once comfort sits in and you stop pushing your own things more and more and more and try your hardest to make it happen. You never pass that barrier that goes from being broke to actually making a living. There's never that barrier. You always go, it's not working. hobby. hobby. hobby. When you could have just pushed a little more and just open up a whole bubble of just like possibilities for yourself. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, and Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: just again, just if you're a one-man team, that's a tough one for me. Like honestly, it's a tough one to like. Because if you're just a single person, you don't have support, you don't have tech, you don't have teachers, you don't have anything, it's hard to justify not allowing and giving people like yay, go do your creative thing with the tools you have at your disposal. You know, it it's it's hard. It's really hard for me to just be like, shut down every single one of those concepts because some people just don't have access to things. But they have access to that. They might not have access to printing presses and like, you know, like A lot of things, but they have access to that. Which again, it's like it's just like I would never do it. But if my five year old niece was like, I wanna make a comic, I don't know if I would be like, Why don't you just do this to see what it would look like? I think the problem comes when it starts being a professional thing, right? Like when people start trying to profit from it. Because it's a collective of Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Or when you try to Rodgon The Artist: art that's creating this stuff. It's not just individual thing that's creating it, it's like a collective of all the artwork, all the places that collected that like. thing. So that's that's where the issue comes, right? Because if it was just a filter that did that, I don't think people would have an issue. Right, like the Pixar filters and stuff like that. They don't care about those. They thrive on those. The Ghibli picture for like filters, they don't care. But when it comes down to it stealing artwork from other people that isn't studios, then people start caring. Youp: Hmm. Yeah, good point. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: You know what I mean? Because he like I'm pretty sure the Ghibli guy was not very happy that they did a filter with his like styling. No, he was not. Youp: No, I don't think he was smiling. No. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: But I'm pretty sure the Pixar people were. Youp: Well well, I wanted to ask this again, because you were talking about being excited about teaching and getting people to be like, Hey, try it this way, don't go for the easy route. Look what I'm doing, look how much fun it is, look up the wording of teaching or like learning something. but what I've learned, especially through Instagram, I've only done it recently, is most of it is just performative. Like if you have showmanship, right, to show how do you present your work, how do you present yourself, make it exciting. Like I bet if I sat like we like you said, like Hey guys, open up Blender and animate. You have to be loud. You have to be like it's almost like you're in a room and you have to somehow get like a little like soapbox and stand on top and be you know, Rodgon The Artist: Mm. Youp: be genuine and be excited about it. But my question is and I I see you already, where does Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, yeah. Youp: the authenticity stop and the showmanship and the you know what I mean? Like how do you maintain authenticity? Rodgon The Artist: talk to the audience as if I was talking to myself when I was young. The way that I would understand things, that's the way I talk to them. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: I literally imagine I'm talking to little rod that did no no sh and just be like, dude, this is what you do. You like you know how to do this simple thing. This is how you do this. You twitch piece, it's subtle, it's not this, it's not extreme. Like all the sh stuff that I struggled with, that's the stuff that I explained to myself when I was younger. Like I'm not I don't have a certain demographic. I'm not thinking of like a 10-year-old or five-year-old or anybody. I'm literally talking to myself. And knowing that I was a very, very, very like lost artist at first. Like I had no idea what I was doing. But I loved Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: doing it. For some reason, I was terrible at at 18. I started at 18, like white graduating right out of col high school. Then I just signed up to art school without any skills. without an even knowing the difference between animation and graphic design. They had to tell Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: me like I was like the one with the characters. yeah, this one. Cool. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: Right? I saw that everybody was way better at drawing. I was terrified of showing, but I'm terribly confused. Lo that is the other thing, like if I see that you're way better than me, It's not gonna happen for long. At all, like I'll do it with a smile and ask you a lot of questions, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's kind of touching the competition in there. Rodgon The Artist: but I'm gonna close that gap. Youp: Ha ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: You know, so like having those sort of like a little bit of guidance, a little bit of inspiration here and there from the people that you are friends with, like learning and learning and not getting stagnant. Right? That's the trick. If you can learn give yourself intervals. You can do it daily if you wanted to. Draw learn something new every day, artwise. One new thing. Write it in a notebook. Boom. One new thing. eyes are like this. Noses are like this. Pants bend like this. This is this, anything. One. That means that every year you're gonna have 365 new things to draw from. And then they compound. Everything compounds into each other. There's gonna be a point where you've drawn so many leaves that you can draw a tree or a bush. You draw enough branches, now you can draw really cool trees. You know, you draw enough people, you can draw crowds. It happens, but you it takes time. And you gotta really like this. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And let me chime in because what you said at the beginning of this is very important. And I think that art teachers need to realize what you just said. You talk to your audience as if it's young Rodgon. There are some teachers, some art teachers out here, they kind of they kind of teach like they just want to their ego stroke. Youp: yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): just do like this, or just do like that. And you're like, Yeah, but how did you get to that point? And that's that's one of the things that I have for as long as I've known Rodgone, dude. You have been Johnny on the spot when it comes to the way you teach and my brain j I mean, every time I watch you drawing, my brain and you are like holding hands and like skipping in the sun. You know what I mean? Cause you make so much sense. And there's some other folks out there that's you're just like, you're doing this for the ego. Rodgon The Artist: I like to think that if a teacher has to be like, Whoa, that's how Mr Loomis did it. This is how Mr. Blible did it. Like, do you not know how you how how you would do it? Can you explain it how Mr. Ble would do it? No? okay. Can I ask Mr. Loomis to he have his number? 'Cause you're clearly not Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: helping me at all here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Like when you still when you do not understand something and you have to refer to somebody else's knowledge, it becomes really difficult to be a teacher effectively. Because you're just playing telephone. Eventually that knowledge will break. Eventually the circles or whatever is not explained well enough and then the next generation doesn't understand it. I never grasped the concept of the Loomis method until way later. Like way later in life. Like and then by the time I understood it, I didn't need it. Like by the time I understood what the concepts were with the Loomis method, I I didn't need it anymore. I had enough knowledge about drawing a phase that all those were relevant. So it was just like, mm beginner level classes, absolutely not. For people that want to do portraits, like realism, that's a really, really good one. But I think there's a couple of other methods that are way better. And not even Youp: Yes. Rodgon The Artist: calling mine out. Just in general there's So many, many, many, many, many more easy ways to learn how to do that stuff. Youp: It's the same with animation because you just said like, that's how Mr. Loomis does it. I posted something and someone said, Actually a walk cycle is six frames. I'm like, said who? Like like you see my work, my character is walking, I can clearly use four. Or when he's running, right? And so and I and I've tried to tell people, like, if you want to learn an anime, don't look at like how like Richard Williams did it and copy his templates and now you're an animator. No, you have to look at like real life yourself. Study movement, slow it down. So once you understand, the when the shif the center of gravity shifts, the leg does this and the bones stick out here, and then it becomes so exciting, and then you're animating. You're not copying something. well, you just said was really cool, Rodgon, why I had to chime in. That was really cool that you said. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: It's true, it's true. Like you don't want to copy other people, you want to be like, cool, that's how they did it. Look at real life and determine yourself how you would do it. That's that's what I think. Rodgon The Artist: It's kinda like being an athlete, in my opinion, right? There's gonna be a thousand athletes in the in the league. Thousands. But how many are we membered? Right? How many go to that hall of fame? And that's what your ego as an artist should be going and striving for. Because when you start doing art, you don't you don't do art to just be complacent and do brochures for people. You never, ever in the life of drawing has ever anyone just wanted to grow up and be a brochure creator for like real estate companies. No one does. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: We take those jobs as placeholders. While we're working on the skills to be able to build what we want. Because we want to be known for a creative side, but we don't want to be subjected to being starving. So a lot of the times there's creative jobs that are needed, right? But that's not where we want to end up. Every single person that I've ever met that has any sense of creativity has been wanting to be seen at a gallery, they want to show off their stuff at festivals, they want to do comp. They want to do freestyle stuff on the walls and the street. You know, there's always going to be some way, but they want to be seen. And even if they're anonymous online, they still want their artwork to be recognized. Everyone's ego is there. They just don't want to they think they have to be passive about it. And that's the one part. It's like, well, I'm just gonna charge $50 because you know, I'm just a new person. Like, hell no, you're the best artist in the world. You haven't proved it yet, but a thousand. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Charge two hundred. Rodgon The Artist: Maybe maybe you have to be like rational, you know? You have to be on like understand that it has to be a rational thing. You have to understand the market and you have to understand how you're making money. But be ego-driven. Allow yourself to be like un understand that you're fucking awesome for being able to do things like this. Like just being able to recreate an illusion with your hand and some scribbles. That if you can create characters, even if it's like not necessarily like animation quality, it's still awesome. You're telling stories, you're bringing and printing thoughts out. You know how how how awesome Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And like you Rodgon The Artist: is that? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and like you say it, like i i even if you draw just a little bit, you draw more than the majority of the population. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You have you have a talent that not a lot of people are are focused on. And now even more Rodgon The Artist: I guess Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): now, because you have all these people leaning into AI to make their illustrations and stuff like that. Like Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, it's a skill that's gonna get lost really soon. Which if you develop it now, you're gonna be like in a really good spot. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, everything like take a look, everything looks alike. Everything looks alike. Rodgon The Artist: Hmm. yeah. go to any in any restaurant, all the menus look so terribly perfect. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: I I I'd never thought it'd come to that, but graphic design has become perfect. And it's just like, ew. Like I Give me like a really weird menu or like a typo. Like give me something. Like I don't want the picture to align in the menu for some reason. Like I want some imperfection. You know, like and it's it's gonna come to that, like also like with artwork, imperfections are gonna be the watermark of human traits. Right? And if it's not in any way, shape or form off, you're going to have the illusion of or people are gonna assume it's an AI thing. If you're the more skilled you become, the less validation you're gonna have because you're going to be compared or be like, that's AI. If you get magnificent, let's say that you become the best illustrator in the world and you can bust out amazing things, just like, just one stroke. AI. AI. Nah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I have people that I have people that that have told me that story where their stuff is really good and people assume it's AI and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Rodgon The Artist: I get comments like that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Not my hard work. Rodgon The Artist: when all the time in the short s like videos that I do, they're just like drawing faces. It's like no one can draw faces like we can say hi. Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You're Arodgun is looking dead in the camera. Youp: Well AI well he rock gun could be an AI generated. It could be a whole thing, right? Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He might be. He might be. He's got the perfect bald head. Rodgon The Artist: I'm actually a baby with the AI filters. Youp: Too smooth. It's it's too smooth. Heads too smooth, AI. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: It's gonna get to that point. It's it's I I'm I'm like waiting for that tipping point. You know, like I'm waiting for that tipping point where it becomes like irrelevant to be an artist for a slight minute in history where everybody gets bored of it again. And then be creative people are needed again. Like I said, it's gonna be one generation that ruins it for generations to come if they s if they do not focus on maintaining those skills. The people that will maintain those skills are the people that wanna be tattoo artists, the people that wanna be like any in any way, shape or form illustrators outside of, you know, the the real world, like muralists and stuff like that, that are gonna require hand drawn illustration skills. And they're gonna be way much more coveted. You're gonna actually be able to make Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: a living on doing that. Because there's gonna be such less demand for that. Well, not demand, less skill set. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And how much how many times have you guys been on social media? How many times have you guys been on social media and you see some dude cutting wood to make a a bookcase or something? There's something fascinating about watching someone do something. And every time I watch you guys, Rodgon The Artist: I think it makes you think that you can do it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm watching you guys because I know what I'm looking at, right? And I know what I'm looking for. And I'll pick something that, you know, if Rodgon is like, today I'm gonna draw eyes, I'm gonna be watching TV drawing eyes. Youp: It it the process becomes the art. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. I'm not I'm not prompting eyes. I'm and same thing like I had Blender open not too long ago, like just an hour or two ago on this thing here. And that's Youp: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): because I I go and I watch you and and and you know I pick up a little thing or two, and then even if I don't release it, I don't do everything just to release, I do everything to learn. Youp: I I I hope to make more longer videos, Carlos, for like step by step. I just haven't found the time. But I'm really glad to hear that that I'm at least making it ac accessible because some people are just like Blender's too complicated. It's too complicated if you want to learn all of it. But if you just want if you just use it for the one thing you need, man. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that's that's what I tell people. Don't worry about the tool. Pick a project and start chipping away and only learn what you need to deliver that project. And at the end of the project, you're gonna be good at that thing. Rodgon The Artist: It takes a Youp: Absolutely. Rodgon The Artist: lot of knowledge of a lot of things to be good at anything. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Get used to it, people. You can't just be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: a good drawer. You can't just be a good modeler. You can't you have to be good at many things. Even the concept of being good at shortcuts, to be able to get things done quicker, file management, things things like that that nobody thinks about. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Right. Making sure that you have enough storage in your computer so your files and everything don't get corrupted eventually. Transfer. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Why do you think it was a big deal when Adobe announced that they have automatic layer naming? They they released that like not even six months ago. You can there's a button and it'll go through and it and it it Youp: Are the are the names correct? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it it like names things like green circle and things like that, like super generic stuff. It doesn't go through and say, you know, button this or however many strokes. Youp: okay. Okay, that's not bad. Rodgon The Artist: so so they're bogging out the whole computer. My computer system can barely run those programs because it's running an AI system to name my layer based on what it thinks I drew. And my computer's so slow because of that. Thanks Adobe. Thank you. How can how could I ever live without that? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And everyone was celebrating that because they don't wanna name their layers. Rodgon The Artist: Thanks for making it load in thirty seven extra seconds because I can do that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Dear God. Youp: But but but that's a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): But those are the those are the shortcuts that we're talking about. Like, you know, I I don't know about you guys, but I in my career I've been handed a Photoshop file and it literally said layer seven five three. So that means that there's seven Rodgon The Artist: I used to work in production. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): hundred and fifty two other layers that I'm gonna have to go around and lit and rename. Rodgon The Artist: I used to work in production where you had to do separation of colors from people's incredibly complicated illustrations, which be a nightmare sometimes. And then people would send you like little JPEGs, like little tiny JPEGs and expect it to be printed like the size of a building. And like, but but I saved it as an AI file. I can if if it can fix that part of a c can AI fix that? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Can you do graphic design on this Word document? Rodgon The Artist: It's not the right file size. It's changing it will not just changing the end of it doesn't change it. It just save it in another file doesn't mean it's that file system. Stop it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He Rodgon The Artist: Like to this day it's the most frustrating thing in the world. Like you ask them to send you a PNG and then they send you a Photoshop file named PNG. And stuff Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: like that, it's just like Youp: When I was in marketing, let's just say I had hair once and it's it's all gone now because of like I've got hey, can you can I can you give me your logo of your company? Here it is. the can I have the actual logo? No, that's the logo. no. It's horrible. Rodgon The Artist: And then you're like, it's gonna cost you a couple thousand dollars to recreate your whole marketing package. What Youp: I have to recreate it from scratch, yeah. Rodgon The Artist: do you mean? It's already there. I have it on my Facebook already. It's already on my Instagrams. This is the only thing the artist sent me. It's the only thing Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: the artist sent me. It's always some grumpy old man too. Like it's like, sorry, Kramps. Like I we we need to have you understand what a vector program is. Vector art. Your printers will need it. I printed it home. Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Those are the things. Those are the things. You have to get under the hood and see how everything works. So you know what the difference between a EPS and a PNG are. And you understand what goes where. Rodgon The Artist: Until you get to the point in your career where you're not doing art for other people. AK later on in your career, it's gonna happen. If you keep on pushing, you're gonna be able to generate income with your stuff. Learn everything you can from every art job you will ever have in order to be able to use those skills to profit from yourself once you have enough confidence and skills. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And experience. Rodgon The Artist: Uh-huh. Youp: Yeah. And you said something v fascinating. Like even just learning one thing is a lot of work. Like for an animator or anyone, right? You need to learn proper draftsmanship, timing, gravity, design, color, editing, direction, writing. So like y i as long as you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Primary primary action, secondary motion. Youp: Se second well, even now I'm getting into grants and funding and it's just like it's like it's like a whole other Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): die Rodgon The Artist: yeah. Youp: So like I I guess like to to your point, to be a one man show, a one man band, you're like what you're posting is only like the iceberg of what we're actually doing in the background. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's just the commercials. Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: yeah. Then people have no idea. Like Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: they really don't. Like I I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. No. Rodgon The Artist: might seem like a chill channel that's just like streaming one or two hours a day, but I'm streaming one or two hours a day on two, three different platforms and then doing like, you know, talks like this. I have like graduation talks with a lot of people that like come to me and ask me to talk to their graduating students. You know, like then between that and running a whole school. It's it's it's a lot. So but again, it's work like what what what is that that one Instagram post that keeps on going around every couple months? what a beauty to be tired from the job that you once wished for. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): preach. What Rodgon The Artist: Right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a blessing. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, Youp: Yes. Rodgon The Artist: what a what a blessing to be tired from the one thing you wish for once. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That you love. Rodgon The Artist: you know, like so no matter how busy the days are, I'm not doing it for anyone else. Right? I can work 20 hours, but it's for me. I'm not working twenty hours to please a company where that's gonna maybe give me a bonus and two weeks off at the end of the year. Right. I I I f I found myself feeling really, really I worked production for twenty years. Like twenty years of working my ass off making people millions of dollars with the artwork that I was making. And at the end of the day I would always be like, Why am I not ending up in a positive position at the end of the year, even though I'm making these people so much? I'm just begging for Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: a bonus. Youp: Where's my boat? Huh. Rodgon The Artist: here's a here's a USB drive at the end of the year. It's a good quality one. It has our logo. Crap like that. Youp: Amazon gift card? Two hundred bucks though. thanks. I just made you thousands of dollars from a thing I designed. Thanks a lot for the Amazon gift card. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Go ahead and take the last two hours of the day off. You're welcome. Rodgon The Artist: Anyone that's going to go into the creative world, be mindful. Companies are not necessarily there for you. They're there to profit from your skills. They're Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yep. Rodgon The Artist: not there for you. They're not your family. Okay? They will replace you if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yep. They're not your buddies. Rodgon The Artist: they don't need you. If you get too expensive, you get essentially a raise out of a job. So that's the Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: unfortunate situation that happens with a lot of creatives. They get a lot of really good skills, but then They the upper end people don't value that. So that you end up being replaced with somebody that costs less, that has less skills, but enough for them to be fulfilled. So don't feel so loyal to the companies that you are working with if they don't treat you well. And make sure that you are always looking for your best interest. Because at the end of the day, nobody else is. And you need to do it for yourself a lot more. Especially if you choose this world as a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And the last thing you want to do, and I speak from I speak from personal experience, the last thing you want to do is wake up at 50 years old and look around and see that one, you don't qualify for anything anymore. Nobody's Youp: Yes, okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): giving you a job because you're older now. They don't want to, they don't want you to be hanging out for 10 years and then you retire on. Not just that, but in your twenties they're gonna take advantage of you because you're you know, you're full of gusto and all that good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Full of gusto. And you're gonna go and you're gonna work. I did this. You're gonna work a hundred Youp: yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): hours a week just to prove Rodgon The Artist: One of the worst terrible things I ever heard from a hiring manager was like, Well, if you don't accept our terms, we'll we have a thousand other kids that will do the graphic price. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And they know it. Yeah. And they treat you as such. Rodgon The Artist: Like, how badly do you want to work for us? And when Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: I heard that from when I went to Birdbank my first time to search for jobs and stuff like that, I heard that from one of the higher managers, like it's like, what is this? Like, are you signing up to be enslaved? And then just because it's really cool Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is this a cult? Rodgon The Artist: studio, you get to like treat people like this model of Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mystery people Yeah. Youp: I I Rodgon The Artist: trash? Youp: I that's the f fascinating thing you said that because like of course I started my career like throwing myself at the assignment and my bosses, you know, doing everything, staying up late, weekends didn't matter, I wanted to prove myself. Turned out great. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Youp: I'm joking. But like now I was able to pivot and do my own thing because it put it pushed me. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Remember he said he used to have hair. Youp: But w what what is so like interesting now is like when you start like working for yourself, you decide what your morals are. How to treat your team because you I there was one thing that really bothered me when I was in big corporations. I had people like because I was an art director for things, I had people come to me saying, You cannot be on your project. I haven't had a project in three months. I'm gonna get fired. And like the reason that was happening because AI was coming in, replacing all the illustrators and the I w watched my entire team disappear and like. so that was dreadful to see. But like when you're doing your own company, you get to decide if pe if I'm fortunate enough to work with other people. They're not just cogs in a machine. You don't have to be a big conglomerate. You don't have to be a big dictator to start something that you believe in. I think that's also a really exciting thing about working for yourself. You determine how you work with people and how you build your ecosystem. that's why I love like people who s started their own businesses doing their art and they stuck true to themselves. They didn't grow too big for their bridges. They still r treated their team with respect. That's also like that comes that also comes with it, I think. Because you don't wanna become the thing you walked away from. That's the thing I've learned. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Unfortunately, a lot of people learn Youp: Mm. Rodgon The Artist: that has that's how you make money. So they adopt the same traits that they learn from other people making, because that's Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's what they've been taught. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: what they get taught by working for them. The only way that I can benefit is by taking advantage of someone else. This is the most apparent version of this, and this is why sometimes I'm very, very upset with tattoo studios, is because they do this a lot. A lot of them are known to take advantage of their apprentices, make them do hard whirling work and stuff like that without teaching them how to do the proper things unless they fulfill some sort of hardship, which is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: a terrible way to treat your next generation of like people. If you want them to be good, don't make them go through the same stuff you did. Take the hardships you took, swallow that shit, and then teach people how to do it easier. Right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Why do you have to make someone suffer? When you did, you already did it. W why does anyone else have to go through? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. You hate gatekeeper everybody hates gatekeepers, so why are you gonna turn into a gatekeeper? Rodgon The Artist: Because you went through it. Because most of the time because you do you do what the previous generation did Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's time to change. It's time to change that. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: and that is just Youp: Some people think that's how you learn. Like that you learn by being in the trenches, right? You learn by suffering. And then that's how I got to be where I am. Like a lot of them have no emotional capabilities or understanding that you're as a per like as a director or a leader in a project, you can either make that person really happy for their life or just miserable. And I've been situations where I've been on dream projects and projects where I'm like, you don't care what you're doing. You don't care about the client. You don't care about anything except your wallet. And when you begin to see the difference and you begin to see where your own values are, it's it's a learning experience, I guess, for anyone that's just starting out, it's a learning experience. Like you're gonna see some ugly shit and it's a really inspiring shit. And no one's gonna tell you how to run your business or your art studio or whatever or your film. Cause I've had lots of like experience with filmmakers who was like, it's my film. Meh Everyone just meh you know, like that that's that's great. You know that's a big cigar. but it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): My film, see. Youp: so much more inspiring to be around people like this is what I'm doing. learn from me so you can do your own thing and then hopefully we get to collaborate together. That's kind of the artistic environment that's really being pushed right now. That I find really exciting, just that camaraderie, right? Rodgon The Artist: Y you know something that's really weird that Youp: What? Rodgon The Artist: I have noticed as well though. I see in my whole entire life, I have collaborated maybe three, four times with groups and maybe four or five times with people. Never a pleasant experience. Youp: Really? Rodgon The Artist: Never. Absolutely. the unfortunate part is that if I don't see someone doing as much as me and working as hard as Youp: I see. Rodgon The Artist: me. I feel like I'm just getting taken advantage of. Right? So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, I can see that. Youp: I see. Yeah. Okay, I see you. Rodgon The Artist: I I don't if I go into a collaboration with someone and I see them just coasting while I'm trying my hardest to make something happen. Yeah, we're gonna succeed most likely because I'm gonna make it happen. But I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: not seeing you put your work in. Like, and the part that you guys have to be careful about is when someone approaches you with the business side. Right. There will be people that if they see your skills, they'll be like, I can take care of this. Give me half your money. I'll do it. All for that shit. No, don't don't don't Youp: Don't don't split your IP. Don't split your IP. Rodgon The Artist: split your revenue. Once you start making money, don't split your revenue. Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: It's just not worth it. It's worth like honestly, at first it's worth doing twice as much for half the money, but it have it, it'll all be yours. And then just slowly grow into your business, then take on partners that you then later have to account for. That are taking a Youp: Yeah, yeah, yeah, ho ho, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: lot of money out of you. from things that you have already created. So just be very mindful of that. You're gonna get a lot of people that approach you trying to benefit from what you do. What you create Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): be careful because a lot of those people are your friends. I've been stuck Rodgon The Artist: yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): in that I've been stuck in that dilemma where really good friends of mine Youp: I think every creative has. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and we're we're years into a project and then you look around you're like, why the fuck is it that it's only me doing things? Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: Yeah, that happens. I think I think that's because that well, when you're an artist, you usually want to do art with your friends, right? With your with the people you get along with. But I've actually learned it's actually you almost have to be like, yeah, friendly, of course, with your colleagues, but they're colleagues first. Like respect their time. You Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: have to respect theirs. Like with a buddy, it's much more simple, like, I'm tired. Can you take over for me? Sure thing, buddy. Right? Then it just becomes a s a thing. but I think that's just a part of the learning process of collaborating with other people. You learn who is good for the collaboration and who is not. You you you figure out who your people are. It it like that's the thing with collaborations too. It's not you're not gonna find your team and that's the team you're gonna work with the rest of life. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you pay you pick up people like, you know. Some people are like, Well, that was experience, I'll never work with that person again. But that's part of the game, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: right? If you want to collaborate Rodgon The Artist: It's like a marriage. Youp: or don't Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Pri sometimes even more important than a marriage. Rodgon The Artist: e even worse because legal paperwork is double. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Youp: Yes, yes. But but I think it's all part of the th like like not th I might you might disagree with me, but I think that's part of it. Like you learn to work you learn that some people have different working habits than you or different e different expectations, right? As Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: well. And as long as you don't be like I'm never working with people again because that I that I think you're Roger's smiling Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: like I'm one of those people. Rodgon The Artist: I decided a while back that unless anything is incredibly beneficial towards me, I'm not working with other people. Unless it Youp: Interesting. Rodgon The Artist: benefits me greatly, like at least like a good 70-30 type of split, I'm not doing things with other people. Unless I absolutely need to. Like unless I'm going broke and I can't find any other way to do things, I will not do that. Mostly just out of pure spite about like going back into the production. Youp: I see. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: But more so than anything, it's more like now I know my value, I know what I can do with my time. Right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: So if that time is not being maximized, I don't have no use of other people. Like very rarely do I find people that are actually Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Especially if it doesn't click with your ultimate goals. Youp: Yeah, if it doesn't make sense Rodgon The Artist: And I Youp: for you, yeah. Rodgon The Artist: I have catered everything to being a one person thing because I haven't trusted someone else in a very long time when it comes down to business. Right. So everything is manageable within one person. The moment that I start taking biting more than I can chew, and I need to buy get employees, I need to get partners, I need to get stuff like that, things just get very complex. And there's a possibility for fallouts and breakthroughs and people like, you know, losing interest, not following through, whatever. So I'm a control freak. When it comes down to this little world that I've created for myself, it's a weird, really rare occurrence to be able to get to where I am with what I do. I just draw my sketchbook Youp: No, yeah. Yep. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: and for some reason I make a living. Crazy. Youp: No, it's that's Rodgon The Artist: Crazy. No one everyone said it could not be done, kids. Youp: Ha ha ha. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And here we are. Rodgon The Artist: But I'm making a living in decent like just drawing and teaching people drawing in my sketchbook and filling up sketchbooks every month. That's what I like doing, and that's what I've loved doing ever since I started drawing, not finishing artwork. I don't want to finish the illustration. I just want to come up with the idea. You know? Like a couple and then just if someone wanted to finish it, I'd be like, here, take it, go for it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Show me what it comes up with later. You know? So See that that's my point of view on art though. Like like other people get different like you know, joy from different parts of it. For me, it's about the actual like native creative process, not from references, no imagination. What can you come up with with the most simple things and then move on to the next? And that's it. Like that I draw thousands of drawings every month. I don't remember any of them. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): For real. Rodgon The Artist: I better not have more than one kid because otherwise I'm gonna forget one at the park. I swear to God. Youp: Ha ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: It's like I I'm sure I had one more. Youp: Well that's the thing about like un unfortunately with animation is you need a team. You can make animations videos Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: by yourself, but then they'll just be shorts. If you want to make anything longer, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: you need a team. So in a way I kinda Rodgon The Artist: Enough shorts become a long. enough shorts become a long s thing. It's gonna take a while. It would take a Youp: It does no no no there are no absolutely, absolutely. Rodgon The Artist: long time. But Youp: But then yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: but then all your chips are in one thing if it doesn't work out, poopity poop, right? Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: So in my opinion, the way that I always thought that if I pursued a job in animation, if I were to go like I gotta make it into the world of animation, I've never pursued it. But in my brain, it was it would be like this: spend six months coming up with an intro trailer to anything I feel like. Like a little Youp: Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: anime trailer. Like one really good example is the walkfu trailer. Walk Foo. I never skipped that damn intro. It's so good. Minute and a half of animation. And then you pitch the concept, not as a not for you to be the job. I don't want to be an animator. I want to be the directive creator of this project. I came up with this project. I already know how to animate, so can direct other people how to do it the way that I want it. Give me a team, give me a budget, this idea is yours to make a billion dollars. And then I would just pitch that until it's sold. Someone will buy it because they're starving for creative process. They're starving for original content. Like, not kidding. They're starving for it. They don't Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: know what to do with some remakes nowadays. So it's about Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So many. Rodgon The Artist: being able to do that, have a product you can pitch and sell, and then just spreading the word of it as you are creating it. Akay, all the social media presence gets built as you're developing everything. Right? You Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: could do it on your own, but you can't pursue it as a job, as an animator. You gotta pursue it as a essentially you're pitching stories. You're pitching Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: ideas. You're not the animator part. The animation part just comes once. You need to show proof that you can do it. After that, it becomes a matter of finding someone that's willing to give you money for a team to be able to do it for them. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: That's how I would approach it. Instead of applying Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There's Rodgon The Artist: for jobs and going like a million like job interviews and building a portfolio for every single job that you ever apply for and then going through the I'd be like, here's here's a way to make money, guys. Like, let's talk. Just send me to your marketing department, whoever's in charge of buying this shit. Here's here's an intro trailer. And if it's good enough, okay. So your skills speak for you. Not your credentials, not your school, your skills. If you're an animator and you want to animate, I heard this in CTN maybe like in 2008 from one of the people that presented. I can't I think it was Will Eisner. I think it was like one of like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: I don't know many people in animation. I think it was him. But he was he said the same thing. He was like, Lock yourself up with a group of six people for six months, create something beautiful, invent. Youp: yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Just go out and just sell it. It stops being creating and then becomes selling. Once you have a product, you can all focus on selling it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There's animation studios on YouTube like Has Been Hotel and there's another one where they it was a group of folks. They went and they started streaming together and they were working on the project and all of a sudden Amazon bought them. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Yeah, Youp: Yep. But Rodgon The Artist: that's gonna happen more and more. And if you like Youp: If you're building the ship in front of everybody, everybody will come to watch you build it, right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: Like like like Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: even like on Thursday, I'm gonna do a live stream with Mike where he's gonna be animating on paper live in front of people. it's gonna be so fun. And I'm just gonna be there geeking out and being no, on Instagram. On Instagram, on Instagram. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Can't wait to see this dude. Is it gonna be on YouTube or or Instagram? Okay. Okay. Youp: But but that's exactly it. As long as you show people you're productive, people will want to give you money because people will see opportunity. Right? Like Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: like there's businessmen, there's artists. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And they're connected. Youp: Yeah, yeah, they're always connected. Like usually. Well Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: yeah. But it's just a fascinating way to just get people excited because before you're I'm I don't know, I'm not but before I would assume if people made a product they had to get a test audience for it, blah blah blah blah. Instagram is your test audience. YouTube is your test audience. You get to figure out people like and you don't have to spend a dime. And it's wonderful. It's wonderful. Rodgon The Artist: Well yeah, people like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And these studios Rodgon The Artist: us like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): are waiting for you to show up with a gang of people watching you anyway. They're not gonna they're not gonna give you the time of day. The first question they're gonna ask you is what's your what's your audience look? Youp: Yes, what's your follow them account? Yep. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's it. Rodgon The Artist: think they would even care. If you're sending your stuff to the studios or like to be like reviewed to see if it's even profitable for them, I don't Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): pitch. Rodgon The Artist: think they give a shit if you followers or a certain amount. Like they just want the idea to be conceptually viable for money. Like if you send them an intro, like a little animation sample, and you send them a marketing sample of what products might actually be, how marketing could actually sell more stuff how they can profit more and more and more off of your idea. How is it that they can make millions off of what you're submitting right there? And get them excited enough with the trailer to be able to buy it. That's it. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): My question is this. Rodgon The Artist: it's not about like I don't want a job from a studio. I just want your money. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. But my question is this, since you did all that legwork and you're coming up with the brainstorms and you're coming up with the product, you're coming up with a marketing approach, why not just jump on YouTube and do it, leverage it. Rodgon The Artist: Most of the time because people don't have the money to be able to market their things properly. Right? It takes a lot of ad revenue to be able to bring in money through ad revenue. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: if unless you spend a certain amount, you don't get the views you need to make it back. So and a lot of people do not understand that. And they because they see like investing in ads, they're like, well, this is going into lost revenue because yeah, because you don't end up going past a certain way a certain amount of that you're spending to be able to generate income from it. And if people do not understand that, they just waste their money. They're literally just throwing their money on to meta for no reason. Just like here, here's a thousand. here's two thousand. nothing sold. nothing got new. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I know Rodgon sells I know Rodgon does buy ad ad buys and stuff because you you have a school, you have all these things going, but what's your stance? I I've been noticing artists buying ads and stuff on Instagram. What's your guys' stance on that? Rodgon The Artist: Well, the I mean you have to just know when, who to try to like market. If you just throw it into the void, odds are you're not gonna get anything. But if you start marketing directly towards certain specific audiences, I'm very, very lucky that I have enough people in my social media, that essentially any story I post gets thousands and thousands of views. Right? Just I just post anything and instantly add to a thousand people. I don't have to pay anything. Right. Now, people that don't have access to that, they need to use things like marketing ads because otherwise they will not be seen. You can throw the best idea into the void when you're a new person, you don't have any like followers, you don't have many. Even if you have like a thousand, you might not have that much interaction, right? So you end up in a situation where you want to need to be seen. So you need to find the avenues that are going to allow you to do that. For a while, TikTok was beautiful for that. It was beautiful because it was the only website or a streaming service that allowed you to literally show to unrestricted amounts of people and just anything that you posted immediately to everybody. And depending on that liking of the first ten minutes, that would depend on if you went viable or like to the for you cage or whatever. Nowadays it's exactly the same as Instagram and I don't know what the hell they changed, but it's exactly the same. Right? People get the same amount of likes, the same amount of Interaction, it's it's exactly the same. It's just another one of those like companies. but as more things come out, we have to just be actively knowing that we have to jump on them as soon as possible. If you can be one of the first people on the platform and you become the face of the platform for the art or for the animation side or for whatever side, then that's your platform. You keep on doing that there. You know If you manage to get a platform that brings in enough people that gets enough eyes, you're gonna have opportunities. It's just gonna happen. And that's what you're aiming for a lot of the times. Like even if you're building something like an emission, opportunities when it comes down to funding, when it comes down to like having a network buy you out, like even hiring opportunities. Maybe just like get offered a job because they see your trailer and they're like, fuck, that's amazing. You're like, we want to. Scout this guy. We need a good animator for Disney. I I don't really know how people get hired in the animation industry. Never pursued it. Again, never pursued that side of things. Never really enjoyed the act of drawing over and over the same things, but I never pursued it. But I can only assume that if you somebody sees something amazing or something really cool, it's going to be picked up by someone. To me, it seems a lot like the sports industry. Like if someone sees some measure of talent, it doesn't take long for someone to try to benefit. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. You has anyone approached you at all over your your animation that you're working on? Yeah. Youp: yeah. that that was the one thing that was a very big shock to my system was to be someone who didn't post because I was too afraid to post the posting and then getting seen all of a sudden by not only my heroes but people who are making their own films. Like, hey, I have I just got funding for my film. When are you available? And even yeah, and even like I'm doing some tests right now for for for people like like stuff. So like I yes, I still have to figure out and navigate the like add revenue stuff, but right Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: now I just today I actually just become an ambassador for Blackwing. So I'll try and see how that works. Right. Like set like I'll be like, look at this pencil and you know do that whole thing and seeing how does this landscape work because I'm really learning it for the first time. but what I've noticed with how I got that Blackwing thing and now I'm trying for like Wacom or Q1, right? Is to show off the tools you're using and be proud of the tools. Because then brands will look at like, we like your drawing, but we also like you. that was the thing that that I got. Like people there was always the thing like, hey, we love your art, but always the second thing or even the first thing was, You're so inspiring or you make me want to draw. Like people don't even like look at my art as much anymore as much as the feeling they get from just someone who enjoys art, who loves the smell of pencils, you know what I mean? Or the sound. I think Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: I think if you were if you just present yourself as an approachable person, you are also an approachable brand to collaborate with. So that's kind of what I'm navigating very slowly. I'm no way an expert or have done it for a while, but it's an interesting world and it's fascinating. Rodgon The Artist: It's kinda fun to take a road that's not paved, right? Like Youp: Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: having to be the first person to go through that path. Especially maybe not the first person general Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Exciting. Rodgon The Artist: to go through it, but for you, if you don't have guidance, it is the first time you go through it. So you're Youp: yeah. Rodgon The Artist: probably gonna end up going through your journey in certain justice like by yourself. So it's like you're paving your own path. So don't be afraid to you know, understand there's gonna be rough parts along the way. Youp: I'm expecting it. Well, even now, my inbox is filled with people who want to either get me collaborating with AI stuff. Like, we'll pay you a thousand dollars if you do this. like like insane numbers because they have the money, right? And I'm like, I I don't want to I don't feel comfortable with that because I that's not the art I make. Have you seen the art I make? I don't make 3D stuff. I do but even then I've had people be like, hey, I've made this AI app. Give me your money and I'll take care of all your problems for. Like like that kind of stuff. So like I'm also learning that if you're in the spotlight you're gonna attract, you know, some mosquitoes I guess who wanna be Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: who wanna benefit off you. so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: that that's also a learning curve I find if you're in that spotlight. It's navigating through. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And young artists, don't be out here all thirsty. Don't don't drop your underwear for just everybody. Rodgon The Artist: No Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's just Youp: gonna have that tattooed somewhere. Don't drop your underwear for just anyone. Rodgon The Artist: It's it's really tough to find the people like to to get away from the desperation of wanting to make it so badly that you're willing to sacrifice a lot of what you are w wanting to become. Youp: Yes. Rodgon The Artist: And that's a trap that we fall into a lot. Like if you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: charge too little, you're not seeing as a serious person, so no one serious is gonna hire you. Right? You'd be surprised how often people get dismissed because they charge too little. Like, you're only charging me this much. Why are you only charging me this much? Supposed to be like 10 times that. Like it's not, it's not something that's gonna help your career. You are essentially supposed to be seen as the best artist to the client whilst trying to stay humble in your community. You know, like every client should think you're the shit. But every Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: single artist that meets you or fellow colleague should think of you as the most awesome human being they've ever met. Right? So that's the duality that you have to run. You have to make sure that everyone understands that you are confident in your artwork so that they think that you are at the shit, but not cocky enough where they are deterring themselves from working with you. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: And that's the fine line that gets you to extra success. Yeah, you have to be kind of like a cultist type of a charmer. Telling you. I'm telling you, black shirts, curly mustache, glasses. We just walk around with our Youp: I know I'm just ready. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: our drawing pads. Youp: What? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: That's our calling. It's like the blue man group. The moose the moustache group. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: Just watch everyone's Instagram profile just be black shirts bald. Or just everyone just like conform conform. Rodgon The Artist: The super serious thing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that's what I I'm gonna use I'm gonna use the AI to give myself a a bald haircut. The thumbnail the thumbnail for this video is gonna be all of us bald. Youp: Ha Rodgon The Artist: We just gotta give you a bald cap, man. Just gotta ya Gaya a little bald Youp: Your ballcat Rodgon The Artist: cap and you're good. Youp: Yeah. Actually that was a question I wanted for you, Rodgon, because I'm kind of navigating this like personally and like when you're building up your brand or your little following or fan club, like the sense of responsibility that kind of comes with that, right? Like to always give not your best, but like to always give like I don't want to say the wrong thing, I don't want to lead people astray. Like the how did you when you were starting out, did you feel that at all? Like how can I give people the best advice so they can just get started? Rodgon The Artist: When I started I didn't care. When I started I I knew that I just needed to create content. Because if Youp: Okay. Rodgon The Artist: I did not just sit there and create content, I would never s sit down and actually do it. I can think of the perfect video for a month and never do it. Because then I'll be like, it's not perfect. or I can just create things. Just create, create, create, create, create, create, find somewhere where I find comfort, like seeing different types of formats. Like my first videos that I ever created were like all over the place. Like sped videos, talk through videos, like so many different things because I didn't know where I wanted to kind of land in the educational side of things. And I ended up loving streaming. Like is the one thing that I I just love talking into the void. Right. And like so it's like Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: I just talk to nothing. Like it's kind of weird. But it's really real therapeutic to me. It took a while for me to get there. Right? Like at first, if you think about it too much, you're not gonna do it. You're gonna talk yourself out of it. You're gonna get too nervous. And when you failed 10 times at doing the thing right, you might be like, I'm not meant for this. Push. Just keep doing it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Keep doing it. Rodgon The Artist: Right? Like nothing, nothing is built without a little humiliation and a little bit of effort. Right? There that's the entry fee. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hey, let me tell you when I first started I s I Rodgon The Artist: That's the entry fee to ninety percent of things up. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I was trying to stream on Twitch and I didn't really know what to say. And so people were like, people were like, you remind me of Bob Ross. Cause I didn't I was quiet. I was just like, we're gonna do a new friendly cloud. Youp: Yeah. that's great. I'd watch that. No, I tried live streaming too, like animating it. but animating it so slow and so s like I'm drawing the same foot a million times. I'm just like, How am I gonna make this entertaining to draw the same thing over and over again? So I fell in Rodgon The Artist: You don't make it about the drawing. Youp: that's what I'm about to say. You you make about your struggle and what you're thinking and your process of it. That's how I did it. What do you how did you do it? Yeah? Rodgon The Artist: In my opinion, doing it about like a ten, fifteen minute talk about how your day was and your struggle about being creative every day, like a journal. Like a journal entry every day, sit down, animate a little bit. Don't have to finish it. Just sit there and animate with people as you talk about your day. Make it, hey guys, we're gonna animate a little. Let's talk a little bit about my day. And then just talk about a topic. You do that for ten times, you have like the basis of a podcast. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): People fall in love with you. Youp: tried it a couple of times but I really take inspiration from you because you do it a lot. So like I I look at you, I'm like, man, he's just like he just does it. So I just I I take inspiration from that. I'll try do more of the live stream. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): But again, remember the part where he said he's been doing it for fourteen, fifteen years. Youp: But I have AI. I can just like I have an advantage. Rodgon The Artist: Just take one of my old videos, be like change his face is bald, just put my Youp: My face on it. Rodgon The Artist: his face on it, and then just there you go man. We got UP the artist. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Claude, write a script. Claude, write a script about a struggling artist trying to animate. Youp: So So I couldn't resist. I don't do that, but I couldn't resist saying that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hilarious. Youp: but yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, but no, the streaming thing, you just you just get in there and the short the shortcut is pretend like the camera is your friend. And I know that that sounds cliche, but imagine you're on a FaceTime call and with one of your favorite people and just explain to them what you're doing. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Everything you're doing. Like you need to really be like, I'm picking up a pencil because of this. because that fills the space. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I remember talking about, you know, I'd be drawing and I know that my hand sometimes just doesn't want to get out of its own way. And so I talk about busting through that wall to make my hand in the put my hand in the position because if I'm struggling with it, I know someone else is. You Rodgon The Artist: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): know. And misery loves company. Rodgon The Artist: yeah. yeah. Youp: Yeah, I tried to make little videos on like a blender or drawing, but man, if I was a teenager and I saw that, I would have been so happy. It's just like giving yourself the the keys that a younger version of yourself needed. Like that's really what I've kind of grown to really think. Like what would have I have liked to have known about Blender if I was just starting out? Rodgon The Artist: That is the best formula to learn, like to teaching other people. Because then it keeps you interested in it too. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And the talking part comes easy. Eventually it comes easy. Rodgon The Artist: Alright, you stop Youp: I hope so. Rodgon The Artist: being scared and like terrified of the mumbling or anything like that. Youp: Ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: You know, you're like like like like like like like like mmm mm mmm mmm mmm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: I'm I'm a big I'm a big like like I'm a big I'm a big Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: one of that, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. But what happens Rodgon The Artist: Everybody has their mana, right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): is you wanna fix that? Edit your video. Go through and like manually edit your video. That'll you'll get so tired, you're gonna be like, if I just change the way I talk, this is gonna make everything so much more efficient. Youp: Let's also edit myself with hair. That will also be better. You know, just this just change the whole thing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): But it has to be like it done in Blender. You have to do it in Blender. Youp: Blonde. Yeah. Like the Lion King mane. Rodgon The Artist: No, I'm in the wind. Tot behandles. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): People be like, wait a minute, that's AI. Rodgon The Artist: Faders will say it's AI. Make my mustache wave in the wind. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: actually Rodgon The Artist: Getting carried by birds. Youp: I have a question I because I'm kinda geeking out still talking to you, Rodgon. I'm still kinda like Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Youp: I still want to know some things, but one thing I want to know really is because this is what I struggle with, and that is finding time to not draw or work, finding time to go outside and socialize and have a life outside. I struggle Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ugh. Good luck. Youp: with I struggle with that because I'm always like I should be drawing. I should be drawing, I should be doing this, I'm not drawing, what am I doing? And like yeah, I feel guilty even like I can't I don't play video games anymore. I used to love civilizations, I stopped that. Every time I watch a movie, it's it's a movie that inspires me or animates me. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: So do you have anything like any wisdom, monk wisdom on the mountain where you can help someone? Rodgon The Artist: a person that suffers terribly from social anxiety. Like I'm terribly Youp: yeah, me too. Rodgon The Artist: social anxiety is like it's scripting to me. I just as a matter of fact I just ordered groceries in instead of walking the 10 minutes to the store because I just I couldn't find myself the the will to go out and actually socialize. But Youp: Yes. Rodgon The Artist: at the same time there is you know like a need to go out and socialize because you need to experience things as an artist. You can't just be inside your house. You have to go out and live your life And if you don't live your life, you don't get to imagine things, you don't get to envision things unless you do it from references. And that's limited, that's boring. You know, you can look at and see somebody go to Amsterdam. Yeah, that's fun, Or you could go do it. And then the difference is not really different than the experience of seeing things visually, but living the experience is what makes you inspired, makes you want to do it more, wants to make you like explore more of the world. Now Doing it social is never something that's been really my strong point. But I do try to find little situations like that force me to go out of the house and be social. I joined the pool league just so that I have to go out and be around people at least once a week. Youp: Wait, there are other people in the pool with you? How do you do that? Rodgon The Artist: pooly, like billiards, like eight ball, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Billiards. Youp: sorry, I thought okay, sorry, billiards, got it, got it, got Rodgon The Artist: nine ball, stuff like that. Like so billiards. So I joined one of those leagues so that I have to go around other people. At least once a week I have to get out of house. And it forces me to do it. And it's fun and it's like I see the same people, so it becomes less of a problem for me. but honestly, if I didn't have to, I wouldn't. I I'm so I'm obsessed with what I do. To me This is the biggest joy that I can get. I don't like going out with people. Having other people around means a bunch of things to me. It means I have to make sure that what I say is not gonna offend you. I gotta Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: make sure that what I do is not gonna upset you. I have to make sure that what I say is even relevant to what you are with like who you are, and probably not. Because the things I do are very so offset from what normal people my age do. that I don't have anything to talk about with people. If I'm like, hey, did you see that other SpongeBob episode? It was really well animated and they had that really cool squash and stretch moment, didn't they? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They could be like, no mom is Rodgon The Artist: The fuck it's like it's like give me the fucking beer, man. Just stick out on with us fucking cartoons. Like I I don't really have much in common with people in general, unless I see other creative people. And even then I find it really difficult sometimes to even be seen outside of just being the teacher. Right? Like instead Youp: I understand, yeah. Rodgon The Artist: of just being like, hey, another person you can draw with, like and chill with and be creative, it's like, teach me this. well, how do you do this? Youp: huh. Rodgon The Artist: So I end up in a weird situation where I don't really see they don't see me as a colleague. And people that I want to work with get intimidated because I have too much of a following. Or they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: get seen and they think I'm gonna overshadow them. Nobody wants me on their like design teams because I will be better designers than them. So they they don't want someone that's gonna be better than them. So you end up in a weird little category of your own. And that's always been the place I thrive in. Youp: Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I mean Rodgon The Artist: But to me Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I mean Rodgon The Artist: it to me it's like, you I don't have to deal with people. you cancel plans on me? Youp: Yeah, that's the best feeling. I get to be in bed longer. Rodgon The Artist: Like the only one I tolerate Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: is my fiance. And that's it. Like everyone else Youp: So bit Rodgon The Artist: it's just like Youp: It's not the answer I expected, but it kinda makes me feel not so ashamed that I'm alone a lot. 'Cause I feel you know what I mean? Rodgon The Artist: Look, I I I find comfort in the streams that I have because I talk to people. I socialize with people. I have people that come in all the time, my mods Youp: Right. Rodgon The Artist: and everybody they like they come in and I see them recurrent enough. I see my mods and people online much more than I see my family. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: Right? So I friends, colleagues, whatever you want to call them, you know, at the end of the day, it's people that I see every day. So I don't feel alone. I don't feel Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: alone because I'm socializing. I'm just doing it in my terms. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: I don't to see you in person to be able to be cool with you and be like, dude, what happened? That's the part that drains me, having to gauge Youp: Yes. Rodgon The Artist: responses to see if you're even interested in what I'm saying. You know? Do I even want to be here? I'd rather be eating some pizza. You know, like it like as you grow older, you stop caring so much about what other people's opinions are, and you stop being like, Well, is this even beneficial to me? It's me Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: sitting here and among all these people in this room. at all beneficial to me. What am I doing? Like I that's what I find myself with groups of people and my friends that I used to love just spending time with. Nowadays I'm like, I could be drawing. I could have my sketchbook and draw. I don't have to just sit here and look at other people's kids and listen to your guys' griping. Like to me it becomes a chore to be around people. It becomes Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: freedom like it becomes honestly just the most like sigh of relief when I just get to be by myself and not do anything except Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And art is a very singular thing anyway. Like if we were all hanging out together and Raghan had his his paper out, the two of us aren't gonna reach out and grab the pencil and move it with him. Even even in a even in a crowd, art is still a very lonely thing if you think about it. Youp: Yes, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Breaking away from it is healthy. Going out and having a girlfriend is very disruptive to the art. Rodgon The Artist: Having relationships has always been a setback in most of the pro like the progression of my career. That is actually not untrue statement. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: your focus deters from the obsession needed to be able to succeed. And if that obsession Youp: I I've also Rodgon The Artist: isn't fed through like my fiance right now is a beautiful woman, mostly because she constantly feeds my ego. She goes, You can't fail. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. As opposed to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Rodgon The Artist: other people before that I've dated who are like, Why are you spending so much time doing it? Like you why why why are you not doing this? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You like drawing more than you like hanging out with me? Rodgon The Artist: Why are you not doing that? Why don't we go drinking? I'm like, because I don't like to drink and it's a waste of money, and I'd rather sit here and drop to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: get better. So I get when point I can do what I want. Ugh That's so boring. my god. Find yourself someone that actually loves what you do and is fascinated by what you do as a creative person. That's Youp: That helps. Rodgon The Artist: what you need as a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's big one. That's a big one. Rodgon The Artist: If you wanna keep on going. If you find one person that's complains about what you do, you're never gonna succeed in this because you're always gonna have a person that puts their foot in the door, stopping you from doing it when you need to. And it takes a lot of sacrifice. Youp: It's it's it's a weird thing. It does. It but for me, like and I'm still figuring out my career in life, right, as we kinda all are. But like sometimes I wonder, do I want to be a father in the future? Do I want to have children? And when I was younger, I'm like, Yeah, of course. But now that I'm getting older, I'm like, Man, I like drawing without a baby in the background crying. Like like like I maybe I would love to be a father one day. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's only gonna get worse, my guy. Youp: Like I have two cats over there and I can't even handle them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is like I'm still figuring out where my passion and my I I don't want to say purpose 'cause that's so like literal, I guess, but like where do I want to f put my time in that I wanna do that it hasn't been conditioned of me what my life needs to look like? Do I need to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: have the four children, the white picket fans? Rodgon The Artist: Uh-huh. Youp: You know, like that that you know, like that's I I don't know what to say to that, but like I guess for me right now with myself, I love what I do so much that I still have that in the back of my head, what I've been taught growing up. You should be outside, you should be with friends, you should be in public, you should it's not healthy to be inside drawing all day. Like my parents Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): As a kid, yeah. As a kid, yeah, because you need people skills. Youp: no, of course, I mean, but I have you've never I'm one of those people that's always like, groups of people, and I would sit in the recess like doodling, or like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: and I've never grown out of that. so I've had lots of friends like, Why didn't you come to my thing? I invited you like six times, where were you? I'm like, I was drawing feet. Ha ha like you know, is it's it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Youp: it's not a it's so it's so hard. At least for me it was very hard. Rodgon The Artist: Well you you mentioned the whole concept of not having kids because you were pursuing the whole concept of drawing for a living. That's the same thing I did. I I helped myself from have being able to have a child and have like family like other people because if I wanted to do that, it would be such a difficult situation to be able to pursue a creative world. As a matter of fact, like to this day, like I didn't a couple of years back I decided to move to Tijuana instead of living in San Diego so that I could afford rent easier, so that I could actually just do it without worries of Having to survive. Right? If you don't have to worry about surviving, you can actually thrive as an artist. But if you're constantly worrying about, like, my God, I'm barely Youp: Rent. Rodgon The Artist: making rent, I'm barely making this, I have to do this, I have to, I have to, I have to, I have to, you never give yourself a breathing Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): The American dream. Rodgon The Artist: time to be able to actually build. You're just maintaining. So Youp: It it's very hard. It's very hard to be creative if you're constantly like looking at your bank account. It's it's incredibly Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: hard. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, so people that go and like look for work in LA and they think that living in Burbank is gonna get you that job, it's gonna be really difficult to live in Burbank prices, LA prices, Hollywood prices, and then at the same time be able to make enough money from that animation the job to be able to actually be able to build anything. Sooner than you think. Twenty years went by, you built nothing for yourself, you lit pay to paycheck, you did a cool job for someone else. But you don't have anything to show for it. And then you just become one of those extra disposable people that just ends up becoming a survival job. Even though you were probably excellent at your work for twenty years. And that's the tr that's that's the part where most people just fail. Like they end up getting a good job in an animation in place for a while. Let's say ten years. Right? Maybe you're like a storyboard artist or something. And then they let you go. Then you're too expensive to be hired at any other studio. Youp: Yep. Rodgon The Artist: And then what do you do? Wasted 10 years giving it to a company? Yeah, maybe they took care of you for the same 10 years, but what else? What now? Youp: I've really learned that by like Disney, what Disney does not not this is a blanket statement, but f when I speak to, like I have yet to meet someone who was able to retire comfortably working for big studios. It doesn't really happen. It Rodgon The Artist: It doesn't happen anymore. Youp: it doesn't happen. Like the old days Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): The CEO might be the only one. Rodgon The Artist: Maybe the art directors, maybe project managers, maybe, maybe. Youp: like may maybe Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I know I know art directors, I know animation directors. They they they live a good life, but Youp: Even they're struggling. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Even they struggle. Youp: even they struggle. Like I just find it fascinating that like again, like these artists that made I'm just picking up movie like the Disney Renaissance, right? Like a Little Mermaid, right? That they made these films that basically propelled Disney into the stratosphere, right? Like and a lot of you talk to a lot of those artists and they're like, Yeah, they paid me in overtime with drawings. And you're like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: fascinating. So like It used to be my dream to always work for these companies, but as I'm talking to more people who worked for these companies, I'm like, is that the path I want? Like, is there something else? Right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So the question for me, from me to you is why is it that you want to work with them? Do you want to do you wanna beef up your resume? Do you wanna Rodgon The Artist: Nastasia. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): work on their projects? Do you just wanna live in California? Youp: No, for me it's knowledge because before the Disney animation was taught mentorship. So if you wanted to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Youp: l learn like the nine old men, you had to go to Cal Arts Disney. I went Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: to I went on Instagram, befriended Mike Polvani who learned from Dale Bear, who learned from the nine old men, and I'm getting that education now and I don't have to spend a well, because I'm f doing money stuff and like funding my own thing, but like you don't have to spend a million not a million, but like a couple thousand to get the that knowledge. The knowledge is available through other oops, my can or through other means. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: It's it's fascinating how it how in the in s in internet kinda has connected us because before, how do you connect these how do you connect with these people? It had to be through Disney. It had to be through it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: it's really a fascinating time in that in that regard. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): hang out with Grodgon. That's how that's where I get my education from. Youp: I'm still I'm I'm still trying to be like mm-hmm, yeah, cool. Hey, how's it going? Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. Youp: Like Yeah, you're Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Not me, I let it fly. Rodgard knows, I'm like Youp: But but l but again back to like knowledge. Like I think before, I could only learn to animate this way if you worked at this studio or this university. Now you have people like Rodgung and other people teaching. And it's it's just much more like not the knowledge is not gate kept as much anymore, right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And explain to me when you reached out to some of these more traditional artists, the the Disney folks, were they excited to hear from you or do were they like, get away from Youp: W Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): me, kid? Youp: actually they all reached out to me. I didn't I I own I I I reached out Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): shit, even better. Youp: to Joey Caps because he is my favorite animation director because he worked on The Day the Earth Blew Up, which I'm a with the movie that revived my passion for 2D. But a lot of them a lot he's good, right? But a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It was a good one. I watched it because of you. Yeah. Youp: lot of them were like, well, first of all, the one question was like, What are you doing? Like, like you know how much work this is? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, all right, well. Don't burn out. It's kind of like that. And eventually a rapport would come. But really I would just be flipping on paper and I get an animator like that I've looked up to that's animated my childhood character, be like, thumbs up. Like even Ralph Baxey, who I adore, like messaged me sometimes being like, Keep up the good work. I'm like, I guess I'm doing something right with my life for a change, right? but I guess my my point is is like if you show what you're passionate about the people who love the same thing you love will no may perhaps notice you because it's the same shared passion. Like even if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: they don't like it or like view it or comment on it, they may just see it and it's just a connection thing. that that's how I've like I of course I geek out when a a a hero of mine likes my stuff, but you can't let that get to your head. You have Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: to be like, no, keep humble, keep learning, you're still just a student, right? That's how I've been going about it. But Yeah. And plus these like these veterans are just so good. Like anything they do is just like you you you look up. Yeah? Rodgon The Artist: I often find that if you look up too much to someone, you end up not ever reaching their Youp: Yeah, I've heard that too. Rodgon The Artist: So i there there's a very fine line between putting someone on a pedestal and then making them seem like they're unattainable. I unfortunately am on the other side of things. I'm like, I will catch up to you. It might take me ten years. But I I'm counting on you. Ten years from now, I it will surpass you. Like like in my brain, I'm just like, Youp: I love that. I love that so much. Rodgon The Artist: I'm like I'm like two years away from Scott Campbell. I'm like Five years away from Germany. I'm like in my brain, I'm like, yeah, if I keep it at this rate, I might be able to like surpass this person at this level at this time and this the year, da da. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Rodgon The Artist: like I very rarely get starstruck by people. Instead of I see it as like an inspiring thing, I'm like, phew, they're so much better than me. Youp: Yes, precisely. Rodgon The Artist: I have a new goal. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: Yes. Yes. You want to absorb them. So Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: you just have their skills and this turn into your own stuff. It's just it's funny because in the animation world it's like blasphemous to say I'm gonna be as good as Milt Cole because he's just like blah blah blah. Animation is weird. It's all about like apprenticeship and mentorship and it's it's it's yeah, it's it's a it's a strange Rodgon The Artist: Really? Youp: yeah, at l at least at least from what I'm gathering from. Like in the in in in the traditional animation you start as an in betweener. And worked your way up, right? Rodgon The Artist: I'd be a Sith. I'd take out my my master, Youp: Yeah man. Rodgon The Artist: I'd be like, Sir Youp: I am the master now. Rodgon The Artist: I am the dark side. Youp: Hopefully I can I can I can achieve your level of confidence someday. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: That's awesome though. Rodgon The Artist: You will, you will. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Man, you're well Youp: minute. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): on your path. You're well on your you're well on your way. I Youp: Well see. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): always tell yo I always tell young folks, the best thing that you can do is have your own projects. Because that way if someone comes to you and says, Hey, I have this idea that I want to work with or work with you on, are you available? You say, Yeah, I'm available. It's gonna cost you, I don't know, five thousand dollars a week. And if they say, Wow, that's expensive, then you say, Okay, well come back when you have a five thousand dollars a week. I'm gonna be working on my projects. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Youp: It's leverage. It's lever sorry. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: It's it's your ego, it's your know how, it's your business Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: savvy. Again, you have to be much more than just a good drawer. Youp: Y yeah, you have to almost be like not to be too like whatever technical about it, but almost like you you have stuff going on. You're not desperate for the first thing that comes your way. You have option. And once Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Exactly. Exactly. Youp: people see that, like, then they want you even more. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: that's basically even be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Or or the clarity, the clarity of you need to put cash on the table Youp: Ha ha. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): to take my attention away from what I have going on right now. Artists need to get used to that. Rodgon The Artist: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You need to have your own things going. You need to be busy so people understand. If you need my eyeballs to come up off this paper, you need to give me green paper. And and and be staunch about it. You have to be staunch. Yeah, Rodgon The Artist: Be apologetic about it. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): because all this stuff about starving artists and all that stuff, I don't know about you, but I'm tired of hearing those stories. Youp: I really appreciate you. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): We're the ones that are we're the ones that are bringing the talents. Why are we the ones that are struggling? Rodgon The Artist: I think that term is not necessarily something we should eliminate. Because it has to be left for the people that don't pursue the marketing side of art. Right? You have to understand that it's part of it. It's not a separate entity. Art is being able to sell it and be able to push it to other people. Regardless of the way it is, it could be stickers, it could be t-shirts, it could be comics, it could be posters, it could be real estate brochures, yeah. Any of those things, but you're selling. You have to sell. You have to learn to sell. If you don't sell, it's just a hobby. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Did you guys see that that there's a post that was going on going around on Instagram and it said the shortcut to becoming rich, you take a painting and you you make a beautiful painting and then you put a price tag of two million dollars on it. That way, if someone buys it, you have two million dollars. If no one buys it, at least you still have a two million dollar painting hanging on your wall. Rodgon The Artist: Appreciated asset. No, as an artist you can probably do that. I don't know exactly the tax code situation. You know, I don't know what a billion dollar banana canvas is like right off. But I think I can at least pull like three or four of off before tax season. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Youp: man. Rodgon The Artist: yeah, I'll I'll even say it's second hand and evaluate it at ten percent of what that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. We have financing Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): available. Rodgon The Artist: Like I want that escalate. I'll trade you this canvas with a banana. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: And you give me a hundred thousand in return. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's really good tape. Youp: Yeah. But it's just so cool to talk to like people like you guys, because you guys are just you guys have so much like again, like I I wasn't marketing before, I had a good career there, but like entertainment, art, that's something for the first time I had confidence to step into. And it it does take a a a a certain level of confidence or even delusion to to hop over to a field where everyone tells you, you're not gonna make any money with that. Like all my life people told me you don't go into 2D animation, Pixar, blah blah blah. And now with AI, people are even more like, Why are you pursuing this? So it's almost like you have to just pursue it because you believe in it. But do you guys have any like opinions about that? Like pursuing something in spite of other people's better judgment? Okay. Rodgon The Artist: You have to be delusional about it. You Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: just have to delusionally believe that it's something you're gonna Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. If you don't Youp: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): believe your bullshit, how do you expect anyone else to believe your bullshit? Rodgon The Artist: No, I'm not n he's not wrong at all. Why would it Youp: I I know but the way he said it was really funny. Rodgon The Artist: it's it's one of those things where it's like why do they matter? Do they pay your bills? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Like this is the part of the delusion. This is part of the delusion. Rodgon The Artist: If they pay your bills, their opinion matters. If they don't if their opinion if they don't pay your bills, their loot then amendments don't matter at all. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Like it doesn't matter. Like y I wanna do this because I wanna do this. It's like someone telling you, like, why are you roller skating? Because I like it. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: it doesn't have to be much more than that. I don't have to give you a reason why I want to pursue the things I want to pursue. I'm a grown Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: ass man. If I was a child, maybe. Maybe. But as a grown ass man, I don't have to answer anybody. Just do the things you love. And that's how life becomes bearable. If you're constantly never being never doing the things Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: you like, you're always doing what other people expect of you. You never pursue the things you want fulfilled. Like you're never gonna be fulfilled. You're always gonna be like, well what if I did that? What if I ever did that? Well, you know, Youp: Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: I was kind of good at that, but I never did it. And regret kills you faster than any disease. Youp: That was my fear when I was turning 25. I'm like, have I committed to my dream yet? No, 27, 28, and 29. I was like, okay, now I'm actually gonna do it because I was terrified of waking up to being older and being like, I didn't do anything I wanted to do because I was afraid, and I did it only for other people. That that was that was for me when I woke up in a cold sweat. I'm like, I need to do it now. It's either now or I or I'm giving up and I'm just gonna, I don't know. what's a common job these days? I don't know. Basket weaving, I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah. And once you go into survival mode, it becomes Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Bagging groceries. Rodgon The Artist: Once you enter comfortable survival mode you never leave. Most people quit art because of that. They have to pay bills, they have to they have to pay loans. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There's a saying. There's a saying. There's a saying. If you have a Youp: Say that again, sorry, say that again. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): plan B, chances are you'll take it. Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There's no plan B. There's no plan B. Youp: There was many a times when a big a big paycheck stole all my attention I haven't drawn in three years. You know what I mean? Like it it does it does it's very tempting. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. I had a whole career where I where I barely drew anything. barely do anything. And then when people saw that I could draw a little bit, then they're like, hey, can you help us with this concept? Da da da da. You know? And then I started working when I started doing contracting work and stuff, I started working illustration into literally everything I was doing because I wanted to get better. Youp: It it just means the world to hear from people like you guys like it's never too late to start. You don't have to be a breakout star at nineteen. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, no, no. It's never too late. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: not at all. As long as you enjoy it, you already won life. Just enjoy what you're doing and you won life. Enjoy the journey. Like that's the whole purpose. That's the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And this is the cool thing. Rodgon The Artist: fine purpose, right? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And this is the cool thing if you just say, screw it, I'm gonna do it. You at the end of this project, once you're done, you're gonna be an expert at the process of doing this thing that you just got done doing. Youp: I don't think so. And the reason I say maybe my specific project, but the moment I'll be done, I'll be like, There's a better way to do it and I need to get better at drawing. So like I'll never f I understand. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. But the way, but the way you're doing it now, you're perfecting, right? And then you Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, you refine, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): can always build off of that. But Rodgon The Artist: you refine, you refine, refine. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): at the end of this process, I would love to have you back on because I have a ton of questions for you. And I'm an old guy. Youp: I'll you will see, yeah. We ha we were we might the film might be finished in a year and a half, depending on how much funding we get and how many animators we can get on board to help out. if it was just me, it might take longer than a year, but it's no longer just me. my my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's awesome. Youp: Mike's helping out, he's animating, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Youp: it's gonna be it's gonna be good. But what you were you were about to say something, Rodgon. Wha what what you what were you gonna say? Rodgon The Artist: that was bad. I don't remember. Youp: nothing. I just you were about to say you opened your mouth, Mike, what wisdom do you have to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: ADHD brain man. I have to fight myself Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's a killer. Rodgon The Artist: from interrupting people and at the same time my thoughts just go like whee. Youp: Hehehehe Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That happens all the time. That's why I had to start writing things down. I'm like, remember to ask. Yeah. Youp: Yeah. man. But this was good for me because like I've been also like again, like struggling with like confidence and being good with stand behind your work. And when I see someone Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: like you, Rogdan, like sh draw something and be like, This is how I do it, and you're unapologetic about like this is how I did it. I'm good. I know I'll improve, but I'm proud. And here you guys have the tools to do it as well. That is like a drinking water in a desert. You know what I mean? To Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Youp: see something like that genuine. Is what the kind of content I would love to see more of. Right? but yeah, that's just my my little spiel there. I love your stuff. Rodgon The Artist: Thanks, brother. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You guys should collab. Go ahead and bring down the internet. Youp: I I I'm I don't know Rod Gunn is I I don't think he's he's like Batman, he works alone. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He's cool. Hey, he's cool if he no, no, no. He's cool if you if you reach out to him and he's in Rodgon The Artist: I'm cool if people pull their way. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the studio, he's cool as hell. Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, i if people actually do their part of the work, I don't have any issues. It's just that most people that come up to me are people that are trying to benefit for the most part just from they want me to do work since I'm really Youp: All the work? Rodgon The Artist: quick. They're like, well it's only gonna take you twenty minutes and then I can try to sell it to everybody And then I'm like, huh, sure. Youp: Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: And like there's gonna be a lot of people that approach you like that. Well, if only one percent of your people bought your thing, huh like it's it's it's you hear it all the goddamn time. And the more people you end up having, well, it's only half a percentage that would need to buy my product from you and then well Seriously, it's just like Like if I started trying to charge everybody for everything I ever did, then you know, I never would have made it where I am. I I like to think of myself as like public broadcasting television. You know, just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I wasn't even talking like that. I was talking Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: free to everybody and then just don't bring your bullshit, you don't get blown. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I was talking when you guys are live streaming, you guys tap in with each other on Instagram and shit like that. Hey, Rodgung, I was thinking about this. D da da da d and then Rodgung came Rodgon The Artist: You find it Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): by. I was thinking about that. You know? It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be it just, you know. Rodgon The Artist: Tag me in some stories, man. Youp: Listen, I'm o I I will because I'll I would this this will be my way of doing it. It's been like I'm working on something, my anatomy stinks, why? You know? Hey. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Youp: help me out. Because here's the thing, like I wish I could just draw and just get good at drawing, but I have to animate it. I have to make it move. So I only have time for a d a d a drawing in an hour and I have to move on because I have to make thirty frickin' Rodgon The Artist: Right, right, right. Youp: drawings a day. Like so I'm I'm like I'm not even able to concentrate on my one drawing. So any any help would be great. Rodgon The Artist: Well do I we'll we'll talk about it. Just send me a DM. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That's it. We're about to break the internet, you guys. Youp: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Should we wrap up? You guys want to talk about anything else? Rodgon The Artist: No, I think I'm good. I do have a meeting in though by like twelve minutes, so it would be nice to have some time for that. Youp: Good, then we can wrap up Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): okay. Yeah. Let's wrap up then. Youp: wrap up, but again I want to say thank you because the my production's ramping up a bit. I'm getting a bit nervous over things, so talking to people like you is really like comforting because it's like you guys know what the grind is like, you stuck to your guns. It's it's inspiring. So thank you. Rodgon The Artist: You're building. Be proud of yourself. Be proud Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: of what you've doing and be proud of where you're going. Don't doubt Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: yourself so much. Just know that again it's on paved road. Unless you have somebody that did something before you and gave you a guidance. You're doing this mostly just w Google in a little bit of effort, you know? So just give give give yourself a break sometimes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Pocket full of Disney animators wouldn't hurt. Rodgon The Artist: If frustration happens, if things don't work out the way that you expect them, don't deter yourself from doing and pushing through. Right? And then just just keep going. Like there there is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No. You're killing it, dude. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: a little rainbow at the end of it. And it Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Rodgon The Artist: ends up being really, really nice when things just facilitate and you're able to just use your actual creativity in the way you want, as opposed to how they tell you to do it. Yeah. Youp: Understood. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: Like once you get to that point, then I think you already Youp: Thank you, I really appreciate it. This was a this was a little therapeutic for me, so I appreciate it. It was like a it was nice. I really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, I meo Rodgon The Artist: Yeah, d reach out anytime, man. Anytime you Anytime. I honestly I mean it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Youp: Anyti Anytime Okay. I appreciate that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He's not kidding. He's not kidding. Rodgers is shit, dude. Youp: No, I I bet you yeah, I know. But yeah, if you want to I'll send you a message like later this week and we'll just chat. Rodgon The Artist: Sounds good? Youp: But again, like I I I gotta go as well, but I really appreciate just the the knowledge you guys have and sharing it and just like it like keeping things together. Yeah. Really appreciate it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Together, my guy. Together. This industry, this industry can be rough. but the people in the system are actually very remarkable people. Youp: I'm seeing that too. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: We look out for each other. Like we like it might not be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And and we look up for each other. Yeah. Rodgon The Artist: like even the same industry or whatever, but anytime that you find a creative group of people that are like you need to just look out for them and they'll look out for you. Like I found that throughout my whole life. Most of the jobs, most of the gigs, most of the career opportunities I've ever had is because of other people that liked me, that enjoyed being around me, that did not hate me. Right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ho ho ho ho Rodgon The Artist: So, you know, just know that it doesn't matter what industry it is, take care of the people around you, be a good person, be generous when you can and let your ego fly, man. Because otherwise no one sees it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No one sees it. And with that, everybody, we're out.