Latest / Connect Call / EP16 - Family as a System: Keys to Lasting Recovery with Kelli Grant

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EP16 - Family as a System: Keys to Lasting Recovery with Kelli Grant · Connect Call

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hannah Brett with Connect Call, just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks one for more options.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Hannah, we spoke about a year ago and you were amazing at helping my son's journey with his mental health and addiction.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, kind of like those zoom calls that we were starting out with where my ex couldn't find time to talk.
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it lides are just being lived, right?
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids are getting older.
0:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got some in college.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got some now having babies, you know.
0:34
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, but everybody's very, very concerned, you know, about their little brother.
0:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are again, he's desperately meeting treatment.
0:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I'm coming back to you to kind of talk to you about policemen again.
0:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, it's Hannah Brett with another episode of Connect Call, where I often say that I do not have a clinical background, but I do have a PhD in picking up
1:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, great kind of love that that area.
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have Kelly Grant on this episode of Connect call.
1:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I I've only been doing this for three months Kelly so because of that I get very nervous and I I feel like I haven't really expressed enough that the people that I brought on this show I've not only connected with over the years I've collected over the years and and I've truly loved a majority of you guys you being definitely
1:32
[SPEAKER_02]: If people don't know Kelly and Hannah, I'm sorry for that, but Kelly and I have have come up together since the beginning.
1:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I met Kelly Grant when she was working at admissions at Talbot Recovery in Atlanta.
1:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I was doing marketing.
1:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I looked at this little cute blonde debuton at the time saying, what would we have in common and realized.
1:54
[SPEAKER_02]: everything, everything, except for movies, but that Kelly has not only been an amazing friend over the years, but she has been an amazing colleague and confident on in the work that we do.
2:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Kelly, I'm just going to read a little bit about your bio, brings more than two decades of clinical and leadership experience to her role as co-CEO of Prospect Hill.
2:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Her background spans IOP HP and residential treatment giving her a deep practical understanding of the full continuum of care for behavioral health care, known for her ability to build genuine collaborative relationships.
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: She emphasizes clear communication, ethical decision making, and ensuring that clients and families feel supported throughout the treatment process.
2:37
[SPEAKER_02]: nobody does it better than Kelly Grant everybody.
2:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say that.
2:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Over the years, Kelly liked myself.
2:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Now she's a big old CEO, she's big time, but back in the disay, Kelly, she still does, but Kelly and I would be, you know, those, those people on the other end of the phone, right?
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And
2:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to joke with kelp not joke, but through the years I think what I've learned is you sometimes have to have better boundaries with the callers because they can really just a lot of times people that are calling us have never gone to a therapist or spoken to anybody about what's going on.
3:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they can really just tell you everything.
3:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And there is nobody better or has more compassion on the other end of the phone than you Kelly.
3:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And you still do.
3:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, even as a CEO, you're still taking those calls daily and spending hours talking to clients and families.
3:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I thought there was going to be nobody better to really discuss this topic that I touched on through all the episodes, but really want to dive into, especially with Kelly today, which is really the family piece.
3:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know this from personal and professional experience, and I can say this enough, you know, when a family member loved one is identified, the identified patient right who needs some more clinical supervision, some help going to treatment a lot of times.
4:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I think parents and families think it's like college or anything else where they're just, they'll do their, you know, they'll invest in the process and learn about the program and resources and paying and everything.
4:16
[SPEAKER_02]: But they think as soon as they get that person right into treatment, we are, we're good.
4:20
[SPEAKER_02]: We're done.
4:21
[SPEAKER_02]: We're done.
4:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, like my mother used to say, now I can sleep at night.
4:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that I know Hannah's safe, I can sleep at night.
4:28
[SPEAKER_02]: What made the difference in my treatment as my mom also knew that the work was now beginning for her as well.
4:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
4:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's really no, you know, a lot of people have outcome studies and all this science and evidence to what works and what doesn't work.
4:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And across the board, I will say, and I'm sure you'll agree, Kelly, that the cases are the people that seem to do.
4:52
[SPEAKER_02]: better with healing with their mental health and addiction are really those where the family is invested and the loved ones in that household are invested in the process not only with their help but the help for themselves so that you know everyone's kind of changing right.
5:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Kelly.
5:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.
5:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.
5:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so welcome.
5:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's just kick right off into it and start with some basic questions.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think
5:26
[SPEAKER_02]: When I think of this question of like, you know, family's thinking the hardest part is just getting someone into treatment.
5:32
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many misconceptions with that.
5:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll first start with this, you know, a lot of times and I'm sure you can relate to this and I need all listeners viewers to hear this.
5:41
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times I will just, I'll have a mom who will say, hey, my son Johnny.
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: He's finally agreed to go to treatment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we need to act fast.
5:51
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to get him in because he's finally agreeing today, right?
5:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I often then say to that mother, that's typical of what we find when Johnny knows the jig is up.
6:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Johnny's run out of substances possibly to abuse or he's coming off of something, right?
6:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's the thing, until that family is somewhat
6:12
[SPEAKER_02]: prepared or like that's half the battle just getting them through the door.
6:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's the real work is them when they get through that door and the phone starts to ring right so what do you think are just like in your opinion like an experience the biggest misconceptions families have with their role in this beginning this recovery process for mental health and addiction like
6:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the biggest misconception is something you hit on a minute ago about the family's being done.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So the biggest misconception is that the treatment is just something that's going to be done for their loved one rather than something that the entire family system needs to participate in.
6:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
6:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning admission to a treatment center, great first step, incredible first step, beautiful first step, it's not the finish line.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the person goes to treatment to change and to learn and to regulate their emotions and to have healthier coping skills.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: and for them to learn how to set boundaries.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But if the family's not growing alongside with them doing those exact same things, having a parallel process, then that loved one comes home to the same environment that contributed to that struggle in the first place.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
7:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, rarely is recovery, whether it be mental health, addiction, eating disorders doesn't matter.
7:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Rarely is that an individual process.
7:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a family process.
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's the biggest misconception is our job here is done.
7:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we got Hannah into treatment.
7:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So now let's look at experts fixer.
7:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go and vacate.
7:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we'll be here to welcome her home with open arms.
7:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're down.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We're on break.
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: We're on holiday.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I say holiday.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you have a red telephone booth?
7:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say holiday.
7:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm reporting live from the UK.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody.
8:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But I am can have coffee from the UK, but I am I will.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: We're in our national Kelly.
8:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want you to be our close.
8:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Dominations.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: on this podcast, can I call?
8:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And although I have 28 subscribers, hopefully 29, I'm one of those.
8:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
8:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Guys, hit subscribe on, subscribe now, how to Spotify YouTube.
8:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I learned that we are being watched or listened to in China, in Germany, Mexico.
8:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just, I'm hitting some, I'm hitting, I'm all over the world.
8:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like Mel Robbins at this point.
8:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so here's here's a great example.
8:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I always give families when moms are spent.
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say a mom was rushing to get junior in and just kind of be done.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I immediately say great.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: We get them in the door tomorrow.
8:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Your phone starts to ring.
8:53
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you going to do?
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the mom says, well, why do they have the phone?
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: You should just take the phone away.
8:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, well, that's not real life, is it, right?
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we're going to start working these skills and changing these little, making these little shifts right now.
9:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Which, by the way, when I say these shifts out loud, they seem so little, but why I think this family piece and we're going to get into it is so important is as difficult as it is for the patient, the client,
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: build new coping skills to reprogram their brain and doing something different than they normally do.
9:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It is just as hard for those family members.
9:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody serves the purpose.
9:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone has a role, right?
9:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're asking everyone to change, right?
9:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, um, why do you think
9:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm going to answer this too, but why do you think that families think their job is done once a family member goes to treatment?
9:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I know they're just exhausted, but why do you think that they're done?
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're exhausted, you took my word, because they are exhausted.
9:59
[SPEAKER_00]: These families have been living in crisis for years, decades, some of them, right?
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: They've been trying to keep everyone's safe.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They've been trying to,
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: manage consequences.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: They've been trying to survive.
10:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So when they're loved one finally inner treatment, it's understandable that they would feel relief.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the challenge is when relief is mistaken for resolution.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Kelly, I like that.
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you, you feel and you deserve to feel relief.
10:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell I just actually was on the phone with a mom this morning who son is on on his way to treatment today after years, probably about like 15 years to be honest.
10:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I said to her, I hope you get so much deserved or in our tonight.
10:48
[SPEAKER_00]: knowing that he's safe, knowing that you don't have to be anxious for that phone call, in the middle of the night, whether it's a hospital, police, him, whatever, right?
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So so it's understandable and they deserve to feel relief.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think that relief too often gets, gets misunderstood, like I said for resolution.
11:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And treatment really is an opportunity for
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: to experience healing in the family and just to begin their own work.
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think we need to honor these families and let them have that minute.
11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like for her it'll be today while he's on the plane and then once we get him have that minute to just be relieved.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to tell my family it's too hard of like no we need to start your work and if you don't do this and he's going to come home and it's going to be the exact same vicious cycle right?
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Give him that minute
11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: while at the same time educating them of like now, now we've got a template so that I'm feeling can happen.
11:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I'm sure you'll agree.
11:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Nine times over ten, if not ten out of ten, I will always prefer the client to come in, who's worked with a family interventionist already.
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I say family interventionist, that's an interventionist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No interventionist is just talking to the client and the patient,
12:10
[SPEAKER_02]: to bring them into treatment and not getting family educated and on board.
12:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, again, I think I always like to use my mom as a really good example because my mom knew nothing about addiction.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She knew nothing about mental health.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody loved their kid more than my mom loved me, but she, the smartest thing that she ever realized right out the gate was like, wait a minute, I can't mom my way through this, you know,
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[SPEAKER_02]: me momming her hasn't worked thus far.
12:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe I need to change some things that I'm saying and doing to help Hannah go after and and do the work herself.
12:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think at the beginning, you know, when she had the sleep in the rest, it was just innate that she realized, how can I ask my kid to go to a meeting and ask for a number if I can't even do that myself?
13:01
[SPEAKER_02]: or how can I ask my kid to, oh, you're uncomfortable.
13:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Go talk to a counselor and me not do it myself.
13:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, I say to parents all the time and I say to families, no, this isn't your fault, right?
13:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody's fault.
13:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the genetics get involved.
13:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, some of the molding and parenting can get into it where it becomes
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[SPEAKER_02]: you know, unless everybody changes and it, that's where I think, you know, I don't understand why families don't want to change.
13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: The only reason I feel like they don't want to do the work or change is because a lot of times people don't want to have to look at themselves and their peace in this.
13:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, shame is very powerful.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to go off in all these tangents, but one of the things I always think about about families today, no shame to these parents, but there's a lot of gentle parenting going on.
13:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And what we talk about with that is, you know, these are parents who are raised maybe with more structure, more discipline, and now they're like, we're not going to do that to our kid.
14:05
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not spanking our kid.
14:06
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to, you know, punish our kid.
14:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And what ends up happening is,
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It translates to, well, we can't handle our kid being uncomfortable, because that makes us really uncomfortable, right?
14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the next question in something, I'm gonna give a great example, is I had a female client.
14:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, she happened to be diagnosis borderline.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this was a client over the years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is her Emma, she'd go into treatment.
14:33
[SPEAKER_02]: She would, I used to love this kid, actually.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: She used to get everyone together to make a huge announcement that she was running from treatment.
14:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and everyone was concerned including her parents.
14:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And she would run, and within five minutes she'd call mom, she would call dad.
14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: manipulate, get this whole thing going, and they would cave every time and bring her home because God forbid their daughter was on the street.
14:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Or their son, right?
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember we were working with a family interventionist at the time who was case managing this family.
15:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was on a Zoom call with these parents.
15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was happening again.
15:09
[SPEAKER_02]: This young woman was with us.
15:10
[SPEAKER_02]: She is about to leave.
15:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And we said, guys, this has happened before.
15:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do this just a little
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: All we're going to ask baby steps, tiny shift, which will make a huge difference, we hope, but just trust us.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: All we need you to do is when she runs, just give us like three hours.
15:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Just don't pick up the phone for three hours, okay?
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all, even in hour, try that, right?
15:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember the first time she ran, they couldn't do it.
15:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the second time she ran, we were like, trust us, just don't pick up the phone, you know?
15:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Just something different will happen because of that.
15:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And because they didn't pick up that phone, the best thing happened.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She immediately called the treatment team at the treatment center and said, first,
15:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And second, I have nowhere to go, I guess I'm coming back.
16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was beautiful, like I could not have written it better.
16:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I'm talking about.
16:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, for families just to assume this work, like, you know, and families are like, we sent them there for 30 days.
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are they not fixed, like, you know?
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you guys can't even shift yourselves a little bit.
16:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's all, everyone has to do that work.
16:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, everyone's a part of getting,
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: this individual and your family better, I think.
16:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a win-win no matter what.
16:33
[SPEAKER_02]: My mother didn't have addiction.
16:35
[SPEAKER_02]: My mother wasn't struggling.
16:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, she did struggle with some anxiety and depression and didn't felt like her daughter could be medicated and didn't want to take medicine herself, but that's a British thing.
16:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think I feel like all you're doing is making your family and you guys better.
16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nothing, nothings, but, you know, why do you feel that these families
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I say to families a lot of times.
17:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not because you haven't been loving them enough, right?
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's for a lack of love, exactly.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Asking you to love them less, we're asking you to love them differently.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not tough love, everybody.
17:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's loving differently.
17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all we're doing.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: differently.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's loving with with healthier boundaries.
17:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's it's it's like most of these families, they've been loving the best way they know how.
17:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's often so much generational trauma.
17:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is incredibly difficult and challenging because you're asking people to do things different than the way they've been doing it for decades and the way their parents did it, and the way their grandparents did it.
17:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So on and so forth.
17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're trying to shift
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: a system that has been loving in an unhealthy, with the best of intentions, but in a way that wasn't serving anyone.
17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's really hard to do because these families have been loving in a way that actually shows up as rescuing, as overcompensating, they're trying to avoid conflict and ultimately they're sacrificing their own well-being.
18:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but those, those behaviors, they come from a place of fear, not from a place of bad intention.
18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what I tell families all the time, and not asking you to love her less.
18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking you to love her differently, and it, it actually wore my heart when you were telling the story about the, the young lady who would leave, um, one of my favorite jobs was,
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: probably 10 years ago now.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was a clinical case manager for a young adult unit in a bitreat and center.
18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with the young adult population, it comes a lot of exactly what you're describing.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And we weren't unlocked facilities.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We couldn't keep kids against her will, right?
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but we we knew this young man was probably going to leave and so I gave the family heads up and I said, if he leaves, I will call you.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to let him have his phone when he leaves.
19:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to stay on the phone with me.
19:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: While he's calling you and we are going to know that the treatment team.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: the counselor, the counselor assistant, they are going to be behind him in a car talking to him, right, helping him understand why he needs to come back with them in a very loving way, but he's going to be blowing you up, blowing your phone, get me out of here.
19:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a pillow, the food socks, all these things.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They're giving me Taco Bell once a week.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I take talk about any change.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I can get it.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But um, but that was a thing.
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew that that those parents, no judgment, right?
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But those parents, it would have been impossible for them not to pick up the phone.
19:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just said, we are going to stay on the phone and you're going to tell me when he's calling and we're going to process, how does that make you feel right now?
19:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: What can you control?
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What can we do?
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Long story long, um, the the
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: did get in the car, this went on for quite some time in the movie, so summarizing.
20:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was an example of I'm not asking you to love and less, I'm asking you to love them different.
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
20:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:13
[SPEAKER_02]: When I think of that, I think of, you know, to this day, when I say the Lord's prayer in an AA meeting, I say, lead me not into Penn Station, because instead of temptation.
20:25
[SPEAKER_02]: because one of my worst three lapses as a kid in treatment I was on a day pass was in Penn Station and why it was such an important day for me was I had six months of sobriety I was finally going it was my second round of treatment my mom said hey we're gonna try it their way now not your way and when I asked how long I was staying she said how long is a piece of string because we're gonna listen to them and not you and I remember it six months sober and I was going to visit a friend of mine in Long Island and I was taking
20:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And a tack of the body snatchers came over me, which I call it where I was like, I'm just going to have a drink.
21:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be fine.
21:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I went into a bar and I had two or three drinks and it was like clockwork for me.
21:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I drank and then immediately called my mom from a pay phone because that's all we had at the time.
21:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And because I had no more money and I just called her and I said, Mom, I drank, I had no money.
21:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in Penn Station, mind you in New York City.
21:20
[SPEAKER_02]: My mother is living in the UK.
21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And my mother, thank God she was doing the family work, goes like this very simply.
21:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Hannah, I am so sorry that you are struggling right now and I'm really sorry that you have made the choice to drink, but unfortunately there's nothing I can do there's nothing where I can help you you're going to need to reach out to those who can really help you with the treatment center.
21:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So hang up the phone, give them a call, and we'll talk later.
21:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Click.
21:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I can only imagine how hard it was for your right to say that.
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: God bless her.
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's beautiful.
21:55
[SPEAKER_00]: In exactly what you needed to hear.
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
21:58
[SPEAKER_00]: As a mom, like,
21:59
[SPEAKER_00]: being able to sit that.
22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: No one she hung up the phone.
22:03
[SPEAKER_02]: She was shaking.
22:04
[SPEAKER_02]: She was crying.
22:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me don't get over on.
22:05
[SPEAKER_02]: She was still talking to the treatment center like that family.
22:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they were reassuring her they can come get me.
22:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But what immediately happened for me that day was two things.
22:15
[SPEAKER_02]: One, I go.
22:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Holy shit, my mom's brain's been hijacked.
22:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, where I'm manipulating unintentionally, I guess.
22:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, why who's she listening to now?
22:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, my work is not working.
22:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing happened immediately, I called the treatment center and I asked for help.
22:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And she kept with that verbage.
22:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime I had a bad day, she's like, so sorry.
22:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get off the phone and talk to somebody who actually
22:42
[SPEAKER_02]: gets where you're at, which isn't me, and I tell you what, you talk to them and I'm going to go to a meeting and talk to somebody myself.
22:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Another mom who's going through what I'm going through, right?
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And she didn't do it perfectly.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: No parent does, but what it taught me right away was they she wasn't going to rescue me.
23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, I have to stress the reason my mom did all this
23:08
[SPEAKER_02]: you know and and that's that's what I say to families it's it's kind of like also you know if your kid doesn't want to go to school you don't like negotiate with them right and I think it's it's just going back to you know.
23:25
[SPEAKER_02]: It's as simple as your way is not working, so let's try something different, you know, and I remember and you remember Dr. Michael Fisherman who worked at Talbot many years ago, he taught me something very valuable because he was very passionate about the young adults and he said the biggest misconception families have is I need to get my son or daughter so they don't live on the streets.
23:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to pick them up so they're not on the streets and going to a really, you know, dark place in their head of what's going to happen on the streets, right?
23:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, if you look up any statistics, any like, track any cases, the majority of kids that are overdosing are passing away are, are at their parents house, they're not on the streets, you know?
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and,
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Go on.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was just going to say, I mean, exactly what you're describing, but they, they make parents make these mistakes.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're trying to reduce, yeah, well, they're terrified, but they're trying to reduce immediate pain instead of promoting long-term healing right so they just want that immediate pain to stop right and by doing so.
24:40
[SPEAKER_00]: long-term healing can't happen.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of like what we say, somebody said to me when I was in treatment, and we can say it to families too, stop playing the trailer of the movie, play the whole movie out.
24:51
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because I say to a family like, I've never heard that.
24:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, things have got a few of those things.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So I also said, I was telling the story, the other week we were talking about during treatment.
25:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know if I was gay straight what I was,
25:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, finding love in all the wrong places, so I was dating a guy in treatment and dating a woman, I think, in treatment.
25:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember the CEO at the time, Bruce, for you very busy.
25:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I was very busy looking for love in all the wrong places and Bruce, this kind of a CEO who made such an impact in my life, pulled me into the office and he goes, you know, Anna, I always say the guys need to stick with the guys and the girls need to stick with the girls.
25:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what the fuck to do with you, just look at the floor.
25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but I don't even know how to say that's work.
25:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But so I think, you know, and I will say for my own experience and I've seen this unfortunately where parents have rescued their kid from treatment or pulled them out for many reasons.
25:52
[SPEAKER_02]: One, they don't want their child uncomfortable and sometimes I hate saying it, they don't know what to do when their kid starts to get better and they don't know what their role is anymore.
26:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've come up across that as well, but I just feel that, you know, I think it's it's like anything else I feel that unfortunately the stigma of mental health and addiction is still live and true where we do not look at the severity of it in the urgency of it.
26:21
[SPEAKER_02]: and needing to change as much as we would with like a physical ailment, which is so unfortunate.
26:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're Kelly and I definitely can agree, and at least my voice has gotten lower because of it, is many times we're telling families to love differently, to do this differently, and we're fighting for this kid's survival in a way more than their family is, and there's something that's either, they don't want to look at how they've contributed, they don't want to look at their childhood.
26:49
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't, you know, I remember we would have my old treatment center, we would have a family weekend, and the CEO purposely would stock the bar, and I used to say, why are you stocking the bar?
27:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, because I do an exercise.
27:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to see when the parents are there the first night and they're meeting all the other parents who's having a drink.
27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: No shame, but the next day we asked them.
27:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So you met so and so and so and so were you having a drink to do that.
27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were like, yeah, we had a drink right.
27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So see that you needed, you know, you needed a little, little something, right?
27:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we're asking our kid, ask for a number, make a relationship.
27:24
[SPEAKER_02]: We're taking away the will be without an image.
27:26
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
27:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so I think I think where, and unfortunately in all the treatment centers I've worked, there's only been one that has mandated family involvement.
27:40
[SPEAKER_02]: If you do not stay involved as a family, we will discharge the client, which I think is amazing.
27:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Say that question again, if you could erase one misconception, like what's like one thing that everyone thinks family involvement isn't it's not.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: that family therapy is about assigning blame.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's good.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like who's fault is this?
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the reason I, you made me, if not for, right?
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So they feel like they're going to be attacked.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I, in family therapy, we're not looking for villains, we're looking for patterns.
28:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: because when you can interrupt those patterns, you can allow for people to respond differently.
28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think people are understandably, um,
28:49
[SPEAKER_00]: scared.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes, these family members to be fair, they have been absolutely berated by their loved one.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: They have been told you are a piece of shit parent.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Spam, not always, it's not always, not always.
29:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But often, as in people are, are impaired, are not, you know, operating from a healthy stable brain.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: They are
29:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do we do that to?
29:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We do it to the people who love us, right?
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's something to be set for unconditional love.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, I'm a big believer.
29:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I say this to my kids all the time hurt people hurt people.
29:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So when someone's hurting on the inside, they need other, they, they, they need to to spread that pain to share that pain.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're going to come at the people that they know are still going to be by them at the end of the day.
29:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And so these family members have been told these stories about how horrible they are and how this is their fault.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you would have just done this, then this would have happened to me if you would have done this.
29:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're scared.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think when families can stop,
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: feeling like they have to defend themselves and just start being curious.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Then real healing can happen.
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's not about assigning blame.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just looking for the patterns so that we can all, as a family system, change how we move forward and change how we respond to one another.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: and not love less, love differently.
30:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I always like to talk on the show that not everybody has those resources to go to treatment, not everybody is able to get a family interventionist.
30:31
[SPEAKER_02]: But I will say today, and maybe you can talk a little bit about this.
30:36
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you offer families that maybe are low cost or no cost?
30:41
[SPEAKER_02]: like family support, zoom, a lot of people think of just Alan on, now there's parent and family support meetings.
30:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And for a lot of treatment programs, that's an open forum for anybody to jump on and you don't have to be a patient.
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the most important thing fame was can do regardless of resources is build a support system.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: be around people who you can relate to that can relate to you because oftentimes families have been living in just as much isolation as their loved one has, right?
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, there's something you'd be said for the white picket fence where they don't talk about it and off from the outside, their life looks great.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: What they post on social media and everything.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't oppose that stuff.
31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't post the meltdowns.
31:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't post the fights.
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't post that.
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so families become incredibly isolated and the biggest gift they can give themselves is to find a group of people that they can relate to.
31:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So to your point, whether that's Alonan, Naranan, families and anonymous or just other support groups that don't have to necessarily be associated with any kind of of 12 step fellowship, but just.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: healing happens so much faster.
31:55
[SPEAKER_00]: When you realize you're not the only one living in that experience and you can let those walls come down and you're not afraid of being judged or shamed or that people are going to look at you as a bad parent or a bad spouse or a bad kid, right?
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And just educating
32:17
[SPEAKER_00]: especially on, you know, mental health and addiction.
32:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just a matter of will power is, you know, everybody in our industry talks about you can't just pull yourself up by your bootstraps like it's it's much deeper and harder and and just nuanced than that.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So and complicated it and they're complicated.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: but how do you support someone without enabling them?
32:44
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you let someone experience natural consequences instead of rescuing them?
32:51
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you stop walking on eggshells because you're trying to avoid
32:57
[SPEAKER_00]: conflict right and and learning that whether it be to your point some some families they don't have the resources to go to like a prospect hill right we're doing intensive family therapy and we're doing the psychological education and we're doing
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, the integration, but there's so many resources out there, there's so many free support groups, there's so much literature, there's books you can read, there's online support groups, I think it's just being willing to do something different.
33:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
33:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, and I see this time and time again when I'm on the phone with parents and they get mad at me when I say this.
33:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the truth.
33:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, you're making this so much more complicated than it needs to be.
33:38
[SPEAKER_02]: All I'm asking you to do, and these are for the parents who maybe their child is not in treatment yet or loved one, but they have a therapist, right?
33:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Or their kid, and I go, here's a thought.
33:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't we just follow what the therapist is recommending to start, right?
33:56
[SPEAKER_02]: They were like, how tragic and sad it was that their kidney to treat when I go, that's not tragic and sad.
34:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Traject and sad is when this kid isn't being intervened on, right?
34:08
[SPEAKER_02]: What we're doing and what you're doing is giving your child an opportunity and your family and opportunity to become the best versions of yourself.
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I am giving your unborn grandchildren an opportunity for being born into a family system and breaking as much healthier right right it's you know when
34:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, it is an opportunity and I only wish, you know, I was 27 when I went to treatment.
34:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I only wish somebody had intervened on me as a kid because it would have saved so many years of struggle.
34:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And so many years of self-medicating.
34:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm here to say it.
34:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so true.
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: still like under construction, mental health addiction, all of it, nobody graduates, right?
34:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You just have to kind of still keep at it and just take care of yourself.
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The dedictions, the only disease that people don't show up at your door with a casserole.
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Because again, there's so much shame, there's so much stigma.
35:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, an honor and a privilege for someone to call me in need.
35:11
[SPEAKER_02]: My hope is that they will
35:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen to the suggestions and the resources that we're offering, you know what I mean?
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and when we talk, you know, to talk about how we can't heal it for somebody else, I think it's just as important though for them to know while you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't heal it for somebody else.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You absolutely have the power to change how you respond to it.
35:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, for families, that is everything.
35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So you cannot control any of that.
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: to change how you respond when you show up differently when you create an environment that allows for systemic changes to happen.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the greatest gift you can give your loved one.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's hard, right?
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's easy.
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Every one would do it.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: If this was easy, this podcast wouldn't be happening right now.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So we honest, if it was easy, treatment centers wouldn't need to exist and what therapy wouldn't need to exist.
36:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but you know, you would be doing it, you know, and all would be doing it.
36:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And you just have to, the greatest gift you can give your loved one is to not sacrifice yourself for them, but to become the healthiest version of yourself for them.
36:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And so much easier said than done.
36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
36:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when I have a family who comes into treatment and they're automatically just really focused on their their kids therapy per week or the ones family therapy starting or really just focus on their kids treatment and and we flip the script and say we'll.
36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we ask that you start to maybe be open to seeing somebody like when things like that start to happen in those conversations it's important you know because what we're trying to do is treatment providers is like what Kelly saying is you can't save anybody protect anybody and baby sit your child or lock them in the basement and think that nothing bad will happen.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: All you can do for yourself is to do the work on yourself and also practice on how you react to all of it.
37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And because if you react differently, then the results will be different as well, I think.
37:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
37:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, Kel.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Hannah.
37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I am very grateful.
37:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Please everybody tune in.
37:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at the show notes.
37:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Kelly is a co-founder CEO of a brilliant amazing treatment center in St. Kroy called Prospect Hill.
37:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't speak enough about it.
37:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It truly is individualized amazing.
37:38
[SPEAKER_02]: amazing treatment with amazing providers, and so, and Kelly's doing the good work.
37:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, you are welcome, Anna, I'm going to correct you because I'm not the co-founder.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I co-founder.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But we do have to amazing co-founders.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what Dr. Lindsey Wagner is in her psychologist who's brilliant.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure she'll watch this episode of that.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Kelly's just pretending that she started the world.
38:06
[SPEAKER_02]: She's amazing.
38:08
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I will say there are few people, Kelly, that, um,
38:12
[SPEAKER_02]: that I have met in this industry that I don't need to see a facility or have an experience where they can just look at me and say, this is good, good work being done, and I will, for men saying that I believe it to be true and that is true.
38:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And so everybody's very lucky to ever work with you and have people like you in this industry.
38:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
38:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, right back at you.
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we keep our circle small because I'm very blessed.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't talk to anybody in my life.
38:41
[SPEAKER_00]: No, absolutely, just each other.
38:43
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, thank you, Hannah.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for everything you do for so many.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Hannah only likes talking about other people.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm giving another people praise.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: She's right now, she's going to be going to go.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I got stop talking, Kelly, stop talking.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't cut, don't in.
38:58
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why, you know, you are
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: beyond kind and generous and knowledgeable and you give so many ships and that's what makes you you and you have absolutely touched so many family members, so many individuals you have saved families because you do care so much so thank you.
39:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm funny, everybody.
39:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't see a lot of that on this, but I am funny.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But, all right, funny.
39:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again, please tune in next week and subscribe to us on Apple Spotify and YouTube new episodes come out every Thursday.
39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again.
39:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
39:38
[SPEAKER_02]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for informational and educational purposes only and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.
39:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical health professional or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
39:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
40:01
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider or emergency services in your area.
40:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
40:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
40:20
[SPEAKER_02]: We're here to support you every step of the way.