Latest / Project Podcast / Levelling up and lessons from major projects, with Baroness Valentine

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Levelling up and lessons from major projects, with Baroness Valentine · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by the Chartered
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Body for the Project Profession. This episode is part of our
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series of Senior Leader Interviews hosted by APM Chief
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Executive Professor Adam Morrison.
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This time, Adam is speaking to Baroness Valentine, having
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started out working in Corporate finance in the city in the
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1980s. In recent years, Baroness
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Valentine has had what she describes as a portfolio career.
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Her current roles include Chair of Heathrow, Southern Railway
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and Co Director of Place at Business in the Community.
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As of 2005, she also sits in the House of Lords as a crossbench
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member, with the current focus on levelling up.
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She was also formally on the boards of both Crossrail and
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HS2. Listen on to here Adam and
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Baroness Valentine discuss what she took from her time in the
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City into her later career, why the UK struggles to commit to
1:00
long term infrastructure plans, and whether the business
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environment in general has become more inclusive.
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I'm delighted to be here today with the APM Podcast and to
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welcome today's guest Baroness Valentine.
1:16
Welcome. Hello.
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I'd like to start by asking you to tell us a bit about your
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career, if I may, from your days in the city, right through to
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your advocacy and charity roles and and of course the award of
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your peerage in 2005. I started in in corporate
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finance in the 80s. It must have been.
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I was the first female and corporate finance department of
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bearings. I then went and did a
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regeneration project in Blackburn and Darwin, a
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completely different field. Then came back to work for BBC
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student company leading on planning and finance.
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Then went to work for the London First I think which is a
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campaign group for London and then well and then sort of
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started a portfolio career during the 2000.
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So I've done National Lottery Commissioner, Peabody Housing
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Trust and at the moment I'm doing two days a week on
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levelling up essentially in sort of forgotten towns running OK,
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but I was on Crossrail and HS two boards.
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For the purposes of this conversation I am currently on
2:23
Value and Index Property Income Trust.
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I'm obviously in the Lords as you mentioned I'm chairman or
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something called Heathrow Southern Railway and I just
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stopped being vice chair of UCL. So how you can make sense of all
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that, I don't know. I do sometimes reflect on it and
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think, well, why did it end up being like this?
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Yes, a lot of twists and turns though I was really interested
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that you you you went, particularly when you were
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describing your move from the city through to to the
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regeneration work that you kind of described it as being
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completely different. I'm I'm, I've had a few twists
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and turns in my own career not quite as many as as you.
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But what I've found is that sometimes it's the most
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unexpected things that you pick up in one aspect of your career
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that are really relevant to another aspect, probably in a
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way that was really unexpected. And I wonder whether you found
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that in your move from the city into regeneration that there
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were things that were really valuable that you've learned in
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the city that helped you in that regeneration work.
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The twists and turns are partly because I thought of myself as
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an equal to all the men around me and I was expecting ambitious
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things of myself and that was until much later on, not not
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really how other people saw me. So that has caused some of the
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twists and turns in terms of skill sets from different
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things. Funnily enough, the corporate
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finance side of things taught me, I mean there's all arrogance
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to investment banks doing corporate finance.
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And what you do is you you pull in as you know all the brokers
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and the whoever, the company and the accountants etcetera and and
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you basically orchestrate what they all do against a very sharp
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deadline typically of a issue of shares or takeover or whatever
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it is. And that taught me some some
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lessons which I've applied ever since I guess um which is I now
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and really have forever Carole stakeholders in one form or
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another to do things. And the other thing is it taught
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me about hard deadlines and in the public sector and the
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charity sector there doesn't seem to be as as clear and
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understanding of our deadline normally because there there
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isn't a real deadline. And the other thing for
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corporate finance is you absolutely don't talk about, you
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know, if you've got a thank you for going on, you obviously
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don't say it to party. You know I'm, I'm acting for
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blah and they're taking over blah.
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Whereas whereas the government has a very different
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understanding of absolute secrecy like that.
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You can reflect it on the challenges of being one of the,
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well, I think the only woman you were saying in in in some parts
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of your career. Do you think we've got better
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now as a, well, I'm thinking of the project profession, but
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probably the world of business more broadly.
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And what more do you think we still need to do to really make
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this a truly inclusive business environment?
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Yes, definitely got better. I mean I didn't know that I'm
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minded until I got to a 5050 male female environment in on
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London first. It was such a relief to not have
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to talk about male subjects all the time.
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So you know in in in bearings it was sort of shooting and fishing
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and in in Blackburn you know it was sort of you've got to do The
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Dirty job for it to be a real job etcetera In in BC it was
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golfing I suppose but in in London first at last I managed
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to sort of you could move between subjects to have
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conversations about rather than sort of stuck in in the ruts
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that have very male violent give you so.
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So what have we got to learn. I was on a panel talking to a
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load of young people in round old city roundabout who would
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techies young techies. And there are there are group of
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us oldies talking about it must have been a women's celebration
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day or something talking about barriers to work and none of the
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youngsters in the audience understood what we were talking
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about and they were also under 30 getting on with stuff.
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My, my daughter worked for a tech company actually around
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there and they had a policy of automatically having average
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male salaries the same as average female salaries.
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No matter who they brought in whatever.
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They would always average it out across the two sexes, which
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which I think is probably not good policy.
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But I think some of the tech startup type things are
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innovative on this stuff and sometimes a bit clunky.
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But I thought it was great that they were doing it and that they
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understood, understood this. Your world feels a bit more
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staid and traditional, I suppose if you think of sort of railways
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and and construction and that sort of side of things, it all
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still feels a bit male. You know you haven't got
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somebody Network Rail female or Transport for London who's
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female leading it. The the The funny thing was some
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environment. So I'm not talking about those
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two, but is when they're very male, they don't understand how
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bad they look. If you're female.
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We were talking earlier about the pictures on the wall, you
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know, if, if all the pictures are of men, if you go into a
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training centre and you're female, you know, obviously
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that's not quite working. Ditto ethnic minorities.
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Obviously if all your pictures are white people that doesn't
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resonate everywhere. So I think role models are are
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very important. It was interesting in your
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reflections there on particular sectors, you know, the kind of
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the gender balance in different sectors.
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One of the things I excites me about the project profession is
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that, you know, whilst it started in kind of telecoms,
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infrastructure, construction and so on, it's really broadened out
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now to be kind of a truly kind of pan sector profession.
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And what's really interesting is, you know, we've now got some
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sectors, uh, you know, education being a good example, where
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actually you get a gender skewed the other way.
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And I'm, I'm hoping that as a whole that helps to kind of
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balance things out across the profession.
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But you're absolutely right, there's certain sectors where
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there's definitely much more more to be done.
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One of the things I've been reflecting on, which is whether
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the project profession actually has a bit of an image problem.
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Because in my, in my mind, before I got involved with a PM,
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I always kind of had this idea that I don't know, project
8:38
managers are all about kind of Gantt charts and templates and,
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you know, telling people what to do and, you know, probably
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limited to certain sectors. And, you know, my eyes have been
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opened really. And so I do wonder whether
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they're particularly leaders when they're really
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organisations are not particularly aware of the
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project profession. I wonder whether they just think
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it's a really technical kind of administration type thing rather
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than something that really adds value in terms of delivery,
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particularly strategy delivery, you know?
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In business 11 is basically doing project and programme
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management all the time of what happened level you're operating
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with. One probably doesn't think of it
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as a sort of profession whilst doing it.
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So yes I think you know as as I started I I I'd sort of
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pigeonholed it into railways when you asked me the question
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but I'm I'm I'm well aware of the need for the expertise daily
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from everybody really. Some bits of the civil service
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have got this really well honed. Some bits are in terms of what I
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want out of the civil service it's often not well homed but
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but the charity sector this this bizarre thing about having to
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have impact evaluation. But it it appears to me to be a
9:54
substitute for the fact that people haven't really said this
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is my objective. You know this will happen if
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I've if I've done it but the way that both the charity sector and
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the public sector use sort of KPI's it's sort of box ticking I
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suppose is what I'm trying to say and because they use the box
10:14
ticking they failed to do the the big picture objective.
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So there's something in that space.
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Understand exactly what you mean.
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I was having a conversation actually just yesterday and I
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put four statistics up on the screen about what percentage of
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projects have been successful over the past.
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I think it was the past five years.
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Um. And I asked people you know
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which statistic they thought was right and it went from kind of
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nought .5% of projects are successful right through to 30%.
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None of them particularly optimistic I should say.
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And the reality was they were all correct because it depended
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on how you determined what we meant by project success.
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Because some of those statistics were, were really saying
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actually if you deliver your project on time within budget to
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the required specification, then that's that's the measure of
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access. But others were, you know,
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exactly to the point that you're you're saying we're saying, well
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actually that's that's only part of the job.
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You only really know if it's been successful, if you realise
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the benefits. And that might be 10 years after
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you've finished the actual core delivery if you like.
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So I think that vision, I suppose, of what what we mean by
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success is not consistently understood in in my opinion.
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No, I mean I have this very much on on the levelling network I'm
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doing in the towns around around the UK at the moment because
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clearly if you're tackling deprivation you're not going to
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sort that out overnight and yet you don't want an excuse for you
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know spending lots of time researching or just twiddling
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your thumbs in the in the 25 years while you wait for the for
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the deprivation measure to actually change sustainably.
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So. So we we tend to do milestones
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along the way that we think will impact the the deprivation
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statistic and then sort of check them every year.
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So when we were campaigning on Crossrail when I was at at
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London first, our objective obviously was to get Crossrail,
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but we would have getting it through Parliament as you know,
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one objective or whatever it is each year we would have a a
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milestone objective so that you genuinely are making progress,
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you hope. Well, let's talk about some of
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the specific areas that you, you've kind of, you know,
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touched on as as you've been giving your responses so far.
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So let's let's maybe start with Crossrail.
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I think you sat on the border Cross Rail from 2019 to 2020 and
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this was a project that you know, experienced widely
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publicised delays, cost overruns.
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But actually despite all of that, if you ask people now the
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Elizabeth lines there, you know what do they think of it?
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It was really credited both for the end product but also for the
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successful turn around and the grand opening and so on.
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I just wondered what your insights and reflections were
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from your time on the Crossrail board and and that kind of
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almost 180° turn around there? So I think you know big
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infrastructure projects that that disrupt people and spend a
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lot of money look like white elephants I suppose as you run
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into them. I mean the the time that I was
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on the Crossrail board. So I came in after all that
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trouble with cost overruns and it wasn't finished and all that
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things. So we were a new board came in
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in it was it 2019, you said I was there and when I left it was
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because the the Crossrail went in underneath Transport for
13:27
London, so it was brought much more under the Transport for
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London umbrella. So the the line and the stations
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were pretty much built by the time I arrived.
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There were thousands and thousands of snagging issues and
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of course the suspicion that all the consultants working on it
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are just trying to do more work because that's how they get
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paid. So they're just going to find
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another snag and recommend how you deal with it and blah blah
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blah blah. My perception about that was
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that unless Transport for London really started pulling Crossrail
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into Transport for London, they would never get.
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They were going to keep going round in circles because it was
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never in Crossrail's interest to hand over to TF LA Station that
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might have something wrong with it, you know?
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So Crossrail wanted to make sure they've they've dotted all the
14:21
eyes across all the teeth From Transport for London's
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perspective, they didn't want to take on the headache of an
14:27
additional line and station that they had to manage.
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So at the time, it looked like a headache from TFL's perspective
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and no real incentive to complete on the Crossrail side,
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even though allegedly there there was.
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Because you've got all that baggage of all the consultants
14:43
and contractors working for you that they're in.
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They're not. I don't know how you would you
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would know better than me how to incentivise properly in that
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sort of situation. But but government does seem to
14:54
get itself into position where one just hires loads and I've
14:57
got nothing against consultants. Please don't take it to this but
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as loads of people and and then doesn't really know how to
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control them. The other thing I remember
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clearly from that era was we had a risk register.
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But I was, I was looking at risk registers and thinking actually
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are these real, You know, there's 500 risks.
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Yeah. Does anybody ever really think
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about them? So I'm always keen on on risk,
15:21
risk registers, whatever you want to call the strategic risk
15:24
register of sort of 5:00-ish risks that you actually can sort
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of touch and feel and get your head around.
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And in Crossroads guys, they had a risk register roughly of that
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type. I gonna have an 100 items
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whatever. And but it wasn't connected to
15:43
network rails risk register and TFL's risk register and I said
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for goodness for goodness sake you know this is your trains are
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going to come out and go on to Network Rail tracks and they've
15:55
got to come out and you know tear on these things and these
15:59
risks need to be aligned anyway that did happen but it didn't
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seem to be obvious to people that that needed to happen which
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I found odd but the other thing is we we did have Network Rail
16:13
coming in updating us monthly or by multi remember but we we
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weren't good but saying actually because this sort of risk
16:22
register thing wasn't clear what is the information we we want
16:26
you to give. So all they would do is come up
16:28
come up and say you know we've we've done some work with some
16:30
concrete on platform on reading or whatever it is.
16:33
You know, we've done our homework here.
16:34
Here's what we've done as opposed to, you know, this is
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what we we need to be doing by when.
16:40
This is what's working. This is not what's not working.
16:43
That's really insightful. Thank you and and and a couple
16:46
of things for those people listening to to to this podcast.
16:49
So we APM has partnered with both Crossrail and with HS2 to
16:53
to produce learning legacy type documents.
16:55
They're available on the app and website and for people who are
16:57
interested in knowing more about some of the lessons learned on
17:00
those two projects of which there have been many, then you
17:04
you, you, you can obviously access those.
17:06
But I wanted to just pick up on one thing you said if if if I
17:08
may by Baroness Valentine which was you talked about some of the
17:12
kind of contractors who might be in the supply chain where
17:15
there's almost no incentive to kind of do a good job if you
17:19
like or not. Well, not no incentive, maybe
17:21
not not lots of incentives to do a good job because actually you
17:25
don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.
17:27
And for the project goes on longer, that's obviously good
17:29
because that's where your income comes from.
17:31
But I think there's also another issue, which is if something's
17:34
going wrong, what's the incentive to call it out and say
17:37
that it's going wrong early on because that might also get you
17:41
kind of booted off the project, especially if it's, you know, in
17:44
your area. And all of those things kind of
17:46
fall into this category of what I think of a strategic
17:49
misrepresentation where right the way through the supply chain
17:53
you might for different reasons, you've got people who are not
17:56
being totally transparent about what the reality of the
17:59
situation is. So those making the strategic
18:02
decisions might have the risk register and everything in front
18:05
of them like you've just described, but that's not
18:07
necessarily giving an accurate picture of what's going on.
18:11
That was allegedly very true across rail before before I got
18:15
on the board. So it's as you will know the the
18:18
there was a sort of flare up with it when it was alleged to
18:22
be ready and then and then it was two years away and and that
18:25
was absolutely alleged to be an issue that the that the issues
18:28
at mid level were ground level were not being surfaced to the
18:31
top And I think that's poor line management.
18:34
That's just that just is poor line management.
18:39
Well, I think I'm not meaning to blame anyone.
18:41
I think of all the people I work with on these things are are are
18:44
generally very good and generally trying trying to do a
18:49
good job. We're a PM, the only chartered
18:54
membership organisation for the project profession.
18:57
When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
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support you need to make an impact delivering better
19:03
projects with better outcomes. Plus you'll access exclusive
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training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
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Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
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apm.org.uk, Because when projects succeed, society
19:19
benefits. Can we move on to to business in
19:24
the community because you mentioned that as well earlier
19:26
on ahead of this kind of conversation.
19:28
I, I, I, I wouldn't have a a look on the website and and I
19:31
really like the focus on kind of green and sustainability and and
19:36
so on and combining that with the kind of the business side of
19:38
things, it was obviously very strong within business in the
19:42
community. I don't see that as strongly in
19:44
every business. Do you think businesses have got
19:47
a lot to learn from business in the community?
19:49
You know, why do you think not everybody has got that razor
19:52
sharp focus on on green, the business in the community's got?
19:57
When you get down to people who are really struggling with cost
19:59
of living and things like that, whether you're being green is
20:02
secondary to to whether you can eat for the day.
20:04
So at business security, one of the things we're just newly
20:08
doing is as a community climate fund.
20:11
Which is trying to help communities move to net zero and
20:15
we're trying to be innovative about different ways of doing
20:18
that. But it but it's really simplest,
20:20
it would be putting solar panels on a on a community building or
20:25
doing allotments to get local food production, whatever.
20:29
But you can see perfectly well why there's residents don't have
20:32
it as priority and that connects quite closely to SME's.
20:36
And so SME's likewise probably don't largely have it as a
20:41
priority because they sort of don't have the luxury of
20:44
thinking about it. If you then talk about larger
20:48
companies, I guess you need to look through to the investors.
20:52
I'm not sure whether the city and their investors is is quite
20:58
a sharp edged as they could be on on this green stuff and we
21:02
wish you the green bond in in UCL which was which was
21:06
interesting but but there's a question I guess as an investor
21:10
are you prepared to take a slightly lower dividend or
21:14
interest rate for something being green and and most
21:19
companies aren't having that sort of conversation with their
21:23
investors and that would be interesting.
21:25
So if you're not in that space, you're basically looking at
21:28
technology which is is green or satisfying regulation or or
21:34
stuff you can do that doesn't cost.
21:37
You kind of touched on levelling up as well.
21:38
I know this is something that's really close to your heart.
21:41
I wonder if you might tell me what you see as the main
21:43
challenges in rebalancing wealth and opportunity across the UK.
21:49
I don't know whether the aim is to whether whether a credible
21:54
aim is to rebalance the economy and it does play into the
21:57
question about London's role in the in the UK but and I'm very
22:01
anti any suggestion that London should be levelled down but so I
22:05
think if you're looking at a bunch of difficult places there
22:09
there must be loads of around the UK.
22:11
It's probably 1000 from the sort of thing I do, which is to go in
22:17
and try and get local stakeholders to buy into a a
22:22
route map where where they with some help from others, can
22:26
actually identify where they want to get to and start work on
22:30
getting turning around a tower. So Blackpool I did a lot of work
22:33
in, so setting an agenda for action and then actually
22:36
implementing it. I would love the levelling up
22:39
department to work better with what I do.
22:43
I I don't need a lot from them. I just need to strategic
22:46
engagement and a bit of match funding for some of the stuff we
22:50
do. They throw millions at places
22:53
but but actually in the early days we're just trying to get
22:56
people aligned to a common agenda.
22:58
You don't need a lot of money at that front end but actually it's
23:01
sometimes counterproductive to put in money before you've got
23:04
the trust built locally. But so I think places need to
23:09
have the right dynamic to start levelling up and sometimes
23:13
you've got weak councils and sometimes you've got weak
23:18
business, sometimes the communities are at war with each
23:21
other, whatever. So it for me it feels like a
23:24
constant ambition but going with the grain of where it's possible
23:31
and and being smart about going in and supporting other
23:35
Manchester combined authority if they if they if they're starting
23:38
to move in the right direction, getting behind them and really
23:42
helping make that happen. So it's a very difficult
23:46
question now you level up a country and as any government of
23:51
the future will be thinking about.
23:54
You obviously are a a huge advocate for for London as well.
23:58
You mentioned that in there you know you don't want no
24:00
suggestion at all of 11 debt levelling down London and I'm
24:04
just reflecting on your your time running London first
24:08
obviously now called Business London which advocated for still
24:12
advocates for London as a business hub.
24:14
There is that view that that we're quite London centric as a
24:17
country and that's a kind of barrier to economic growth in
24:20
other places. What do you say to those kind of
24:23
people who have that, who have that view?
24:25
Are they right? Yes, Um, we've got power bases
24:31
in London, which are the City, the government and to a lesser
24:35
extent probably higher education.
24:38
I'm always disappointed when ministers and civil servants say
24:42
they're coming up to Sheffield or Blackpool or whatever and
24:46
they they cancel because in their eyes something more
24:49
important has come up. And that just to me says such a
24:52
lot about the attitude. So, you know, if you're going
24:56
out to somewhere that really values your turning up and
25:02
cares, you know, about work stuff, then that needs to be far
25:05
better respected than thinking that a minister suddenly, I
25:09
don't know, the Secretary of State called you into a meeting.
25:12
The Secretary of State should be told I've already got a meeting
25:14
up in Blackpool though I'm not coming but that's you know that
25:18
that would be that's not the way it works.
25:21
So if I were thinking about UK long term I would definitely
25:26
seek to move probably government out of London in some way.
25:31
They're always theoretically doing that.
25:32
I think devolution is the much the strongest lever for doing
25:37
that. So I think the combined
25:38
authorities, the mayoral things is is is a good, good direction
25:43
of travel and and both parties are really heading in that
25:45
direction. Let's talk a bit about securing
25:49
government backing for projects at the moment.
25:52
Sometimes we see projects getting approved which are, I
25:56
don't know, maybe pet projects or vanity projects or ones that
25:59
are politically expedient rather than necessarily always the
26:02
right projects and programmes that will be, you know, the best
26:05
for society long term. Why do you think that kind of
26:09
thing happens, and and what do you think government could or
26:12
should do about it? Well, I I mean I hoped the
26:17
National Infrastructure Commission was going to be, um,
26:20
helpful on this. I mean we seemed to be so bad at
26:22
committing to long term plans and infrastructure plans in this
26:26
country. I have to go across across
26:29
parliaments. So you know you need to be 20
26:32
years. In fact my the chief executive
26:34
of Heathrow Southern Railway was in was in Berlin two days ago
26:39
and just talking about how the Germans do to who of course have
26:42
a much clearer plan which has the disadvantage of if you can't
26:45
change it very easily. So I'm probably mindless that
26:51
the wrong projects are done. So I think if there are
26:54
infrastructure projects which have some benefit and have
26:59
little disc benefit, I mean not not enough are done by thinking
27:03
about the wider wider social environmental impact which which
27:07
I hope the treasury is beginning to get better at but but but you
27:12
know who who is 1 to judge what are what are right and the wrong
27:15
project is but but I do think we desperately need a long term
27:19
direction of travel and and and I'm thinking particularly of the
27:22
airport stuff so. So you know we set up the
27:25
Airports Commission to decide what we were doing, but then
27:27
we've essentially not been doing what it recommended for 10 years
27:32
now or whatever it is. So we just seem to be incapable
27:37
of taking that long view. I when you when people talk
27:40
about restructuring the Lords and the and the Commons, I would
27:44
be quite interested in some relationship between the Lords
27:47
and the Commons where where the Lords sort of owned the longer
27:51
term plan. So so you could have some 20
27:55
year plans on housing, education, whatever which will
27:58
need to go across parliaments and and somehow the Lords could
28:02
be the conscience of that where where the Commons is doing all
28:05
the political infighting and you know their their day-to-day
28:09
stuff. That would seem to me to be a
28:12
helpful role for the Lords. Yeah, it's really interesting
28:16
idea. I've never thought about that
28:17
before, but it does make sense because obviously you've got
28:19
more continuity in in in that house.
28:22
Just one final question before we probably need to wrap up.
28:25
Sometimes when I talk to senior civil servants, occasionally
28:29
politicians as well, they talked to me about the fact that
28:31
sometimes trying to get the right projects approved is
28:35
really, really difficult because either they're going to cost too
28:38
much money, they're not going to be completed within their
28:40
political tenure. Maybe they've described the
28:43
situation where they kind of almost are not completely
28:47
transparent about the full complexity or full cost or how
28:50
long the project's going to take up front.
28:53
Because they say, uh, it's much easier to get a project approved
28:57
by going for something simpler and then and then to go through
29:01
the change control process once a project is already approved.
29:05
And that's an easier way of getting to the end game.
29:08
And and of course, that just ends up costing the public purse
29:11
a lot more because, you know, because we're not being clear
29:14
about costs and things from the outset and it takes longer.
29:17
And then we end up with all of this, you know, stuff in the
29:19
media about projects failing because they're late and so on.
29:22
I mean, that feels to me like a, a really wrong way to go about
29:27
things. I mean, is that a genuine
29:28
problem, do you think? Or or is it just something that
29:31
happens occasionally? I mean I haven't thought about
29:34
it quite that way, but when certainly what I see is, is
29:37
projects going in that cost 2 billion which you know probably
29:40
common sense would tell you cost 5 billion.
29:43
I mean I I think the Treasury must be quite quite aware of
29:47
this sort of issue. I I was thinking earlier about
29:51
the the Department of Transport and Treasury and in managing
29:56
projects like Crossrail or HS2 because I I always think the
30:00
client really has to bear the brunt of the project doesn't
30:03
work. So it's all very well saying HS2
30:05
or Crossrail have failed but actually the governance going
30:10
back up the chain is failing and you know it's all it's very easy
30:15
again to beat up government departments but I think because
30:20
no one quite has the authority to to be the client probably you
30:25
know you've got the Treasury looking over your shoulder if
30:27
you're the DfT so you never feel like you're quite in charge and
30:33
it's something around that we we did it just two I think where I
30:37
think that the the risks on a project we're doing would looked
30:40
at 9 times before they were authorised and we actually
30:45
worked out that we were building risk in by doing that process
30:48
rather than reducing risk. So there's something about that
30:54
whole process which which is very unhealthy.
30:57
I think the Infrastructure Projects Authority, you know
31:00
there's there's been attempts to to to to deal with these things
31:04
better, but they're thought of as processes, whereas actually
31:08
the sort of accountability that needs to be sorted out probably
31:13
why you've got a strong lead. I think Michael Gove is a strong
31:16
leader on on on levelling up. You can then sort of hold the
31:20
Fort a bit better, but mostly things aren't strongly led to
31:24
the minister changes, Secretary of State changes, etcetera.
31:29
So I don't. I don't know what the solution
31:31
is, I'm afraid. OK.
31:33
Well, yeah, it's good to hear your reflections on that.
31:35
But Baroness Valentine, thank you very much for your time.
31:38
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
31:40
I've enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for joining us for
31:48
this episode of the APM Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget
31:51
to subscribe. Leave us a review, but why not
31:54
contact us with your feedback at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk?
32:00
For more on levelling up, check out the resources published by
32:03
APM as part of its Future Lives and Landscapes campaign, which
32:07
seeks to raise awareness of the social value of projects by
32:10
highlighting the many benefits they create for people and
32:13
communities, and by helping practitioners and organisations
32:16
incorporate benefits into projects to shape the future
32:19
economic, social and physical landscape of the UK.
32:23
To find out more such future lives and landscapes at
32:26
apm.org.uk or see the link in the episode description.
32:31
That's it from us for today. Thanks for listening.