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Murder In Moscow: How Bryan Kohberger’s Mental Health Could Shape His Legal Future (8/26/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to spin back up to Moscow,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about Brian Koberger and the
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: mental health diagnosis that was revealed during the buildup towards
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the trial, and that's being talked about once again. And obviously,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: it has relevance considering what's going on with Lindsay Clancy
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and the discussion around mental health. So today, we have
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: an article from Newsweek and the headlines. how Brian Kohlberger's
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: diagnosis could impact possible trial and sentencing. Well, it's not
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: going to impact the trial, that's for sure. As far
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: as sentencing goes, they tried to use those conditions as
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: mitigating factors so that the judge would remove the death penalty.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: And Judge Hippler wasn't having it. And I don't think
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: that Kohlberger is going to be successful this time around either.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: This man knew exactly what he was doing. And he
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: carried out his plans... almost to perfection. And if it
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: wasn't for that knife sheath, this might be a whole
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: different conversation. This article was authored by Kalita Rockman. Brian
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's mental health disorders could be a factor if he
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: succeeds in withdrawing his guilty plea and going to trial
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: for the murders of four University of Idaho students, experts,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: told Newsweek. Yeah, I don't buy it, sorry. Much to
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: do about nothing. Kohlberger, 31, pleaded guilty to the fatal
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: stabbings of Kaylee Gonsalves, Ethan Chapin, Zanna Kernodle, and Madison
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Mogan in July of last year, just weeks before he
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: was set to go to trial for the murders at
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a rental home near the university's campus in Moscow, Idaho,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: in November of 2022. He's serving four consecutive life sentences.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Should've threw his ass directly in a volcano, because this
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: son of a bitch is as guilty as the day
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: is long. And I don't want to hear shit about
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: his mental condition. Go get fucked. Save that shit for
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Lindsey Clancy. Because that narrative has already been tried here,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and it's already went down in flames. So it might
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: have something to do with mitigation if it goes to
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a new trial, but I don't think so. I think
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: that when we're talking about somebody like Brian Kohlberger, somebody
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: that was as locked in as he was when it
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: comes to school, etc., you're going to have a hard
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: time convincing a jury that he was suffering some kind
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: of psychosis. Oh, he's crazy, there's no doubt. But being
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: crazy is not the same as being criminally insane. Prosecutors
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: have yet to respond to the filing, but Idaho Attorney
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: General Raul R. Labrador said in a statement that his
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: office was ready to do whatever necessary to ensure justice
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: was carried out. Well, cool, great. Make sure this rotten
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: son of a bitch never leaves jail. Let's start there. Now,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: newly unsealed court filings provide details of the neuropsychological evaluation
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that Kohlberger underwent following his arrest. We talked about this
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: at the time. We had the court documents talking about it.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: So it's not like it was just unveiled. Now we
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: have a little bit more depth and some more context.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: But if you read the court filings, Brian Kohlberger's team
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: made these arguments and they were completely and utterly rejected
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: by the judge. Kohlberger's attorneys had him examined by a
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: clinical neuropsychologist, Dr. Rachel Lohr, who diagnosed him with autism
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: spectrum disorder, which his attorney cited in an unsuccessful bid
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: to get the death penalty removed as a possible punishment.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Nemo Rachmani, a former federal prosecutor who is now president
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  Speaker 1: of law firm West Coast Trial Lawyers, told Newsweek that
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the diagnosis alone are unlikely to persuade a judge to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: now set aside Kohlberger's guilty plea. Yeah, no shit. They're
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: not setting anything aside. Brian Koberger has no chance to
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: win when it comes to, oh, my mental conditions. Sorry, buddy.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: You're not a well-to-do woman from Massachusetts. That only works there,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: not in Idaho. Now, if you want to get away
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: with a crime, seems to me that Massachusetts is the
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: place to do it. What an absolute circus and shitshow.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: But he said that they could become relevant if he
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: argues that they prevented him from fully understanding the consequences
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: of his plea. If Kohlberger can convince the court that
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: his attorneys misled him, or that he didn't understand the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: consequences of his guilty plea because of his diagnosis, then
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: they may be relevant to withdrawal, he said. But he
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: understood how to take tests. He understood how to process
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: a crime scene. He understood how to go to college.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Save that shit for somebody else. Look, there's a legitimate
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: cause involved. for concern when somebody has real psychological issues.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: But what we're talking about here is absolute bullshit. The
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: dude is on the spectrum. That's it. He's not a
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: full-on autist, right? Just read the court documents for yourself.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: According to the report, Orr met with Koberger on six
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: separate occasions to interview and evaluate him between October of
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: 2024 and January of 2025. She diagnosed him with autism
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: spectrum disorder level 1 without accompanying intellectual or language impairment.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: That's the most important part.
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  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: That's the most important part. No intellectual or language impairment.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Cuz understood exactly what he was doing when he murdered
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: those kids and he understood what he was doing when
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: he accepted that plea. Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder which she
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: noted he was in partial remission for obsessive compulsive disorder, avoidance,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: restrictive food intake disorder. So all of that stuff led
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: him to kill people? Give me a break. Sorry, not
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: buying it. We all have mental health issues. Doesn't mean
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: we're going out to kill people. Doesn't mean we're strangling
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: our children. Orr's report also lists additional diagnosis that Kohlberger
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: had met the criteria for in the past, including developmental
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: coordination disorder, doesn't mean shit, Got to college, right? Got
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: to graduate school. Was about to become a criminal profiler.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: So save it. Anorexia nervosa, unspecified depressive disorder, and opioid
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: use disorder. Bro, who isn't depressed? I mean, come on.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Have you taken a look at the state of the world?
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: My patience is running real thin when it comes to
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: shit like this. If these people are criminally insane, then
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: what about somebody like Gary Ridgeway? What about Lori Vallow?
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: She wasn't even there when the kids were killed. She
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: was found not mentally competent to stand trial for a
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: little while. So should Lori Vallow get the same treatment
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that Brian Koberger gets? Or that Lindsay Clancy gets? Something
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: to sit with. Rachmani said it's unlikely that Kohlberger will
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: be successful in his bid to withdraw his guilty plea.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: But even if he is, his diagnosis would not be
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: relevant at trial. Autism, ADHD, OCD, and Afrid are not
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: relevant to whether Kohlberger committed the murders or any other
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: elements of the crimes. So they won't come into the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: guilt phase of the trial even if Kohlberger is permitted
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to withdraw his plea, he said. Yeah, it's only about mitigation.
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  Speaker 1: That's the only time that this stuff matters.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Mitigation.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Mitigation. This rotten son of a bitch knew exactly what
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: he was doing, okay? He planned it, premeditated it, and
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: then carried it out. So save the bullshit. I think
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: he has had a hard time adjusting in custody. That
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: gives him greater incentive to withdraw his plea and ask
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: for a trial, she said. Levinson said if it happens,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: she would expect prosecutors would seek to use any and
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: all evaluations in a trial of him on the underlying murder.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Because Koberger accepted a plea deal, that took the death
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: penalty off the table, his diagnosis were not a major
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: issue at sentencing. But that could change if he was
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: allowed to withdraw his plea, be convicted after a trial,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: and then face a new sentence, including the possibility of
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: the death penalty. That's where it could play. Let's be
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: very clear. Mitigation is the penalty phase. It has nothing
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: to do with the trial part. Just the mitigation of
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: the penalty. And that's a whole different conversation, right? I'm
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: willing to listen at least, but let's not confuse the two.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: His mental health, his special needs, or any disabilities may
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: be mitigating factors at sentencing that the jurors can consider
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: in deciding whether to sentence him to life or death,
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  Speaker 1: Rahmani said, but this will only be relevant if he
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: withdraws his plea and after he is found guilty. Right,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: so right now it really means nothing, right? We're getting
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the information and that's good. We need to have as
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: much information as possible. But in the grand scheme of things,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: his mental state is not something new. We've known about this.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: And in my opinion, it's certainly not going to be enough.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: The plea. Before Koberger accepted the plea deal, his attorney
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: had asked a judge to remove the death penalty as
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: a possible punishment, citing his autism diagnosis. They argued that
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: executing someone with autism would constitute cruel and unusual punishment
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: under the Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. What constitutional
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: rights did those kids have? Oh, that's right, none. Because
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: this dirty, rotten son of a bitch crept into their
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: house in the middle of the night like a fucking
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: coward and killed them. So please, save the bullshit. When
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: it comes to Brian Kohlberger, my patience has worn thin.
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  Speaker 1: But Judge Stephen Hippler sided with prosecutors who argued that
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: under the U.S. Supreme Court precedent, the only mental disability
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: that precludes imposition of the death penalty is an intellectual disability.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger was diagnosed with autism without accompanying intellectual impairment. Not
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: only has defendant failed to show that AS is equivalent
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  Speaker 1: to an intellectual disability for death penalty exemption purposes, he
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: has not shown there is a national consensus that against
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: subjecting individuals with ASD to capital punishment, Hipler wrote in
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  Speaker 1: an order. ASD may be mitigating factor to be weighed
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: against the aggravating factors in determining if defendant should receive
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  Speaker 1: the death penalty, but it's not a death penalty disqualifier, 100%.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: That's an argument that would be had once we got
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to the penalty stage, and obviously that didn't happen. Dr.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Ty Milton, Assistant Professor of Psychology and Counseling, and Director
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: of Psychology at Mid-American Christian University, told Newsweek that the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: evaluations Kohlberger underwent were extensive and thorough. But while the
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: diagnoses are clinically significant, they should not be construed as
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: justifying violent behavior or implying that an individual is incapable
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: of comprehending his or her situation, he said. Yeah? Maybe
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: they should use a little bit of that shade in Massachusetts.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: The combination of the disorders is more informative than studying
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: any single diagnosis separately, Milton said. Autism may cause rigidity
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: and social processing difficulties. OCD may encourage repetitive or inflexible
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: thought patterns. And ADHD may impair executive control and impulsiveness.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: These qualities may influence how an individual handles pressure, conflict, uncertainty,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and emotionally charged decision-making. He cautioned against drawing direct links
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: between diagnosis and criminal behavior. The majority of people with autism, ADHD, OCD, depression,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: or eating disorders do not act violently, Milton said. What
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: behavioral science may investigate is if the failure linked with
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: these illnesses influenced his individual cognitive flexibility, emotional regulation, interpersonal awareness,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: coping mechanisms, perception of pressure, or decision-making abilities. Oh, save it.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Regarding Kohlberger's effort to revoke the plea, Milton said the
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: key question is whether his disorders affected his judgment during
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the plea negotiations. Oh yeah, sure they did. That would
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: be convenient, huh?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Did these conditions influence how Brian handled pressure, digested alternatives,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: talked with others, or made critical decisions under stress? The
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: current examination provides grounds to investigate these problems, Milton said.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Another one of those, huh? There are a lot of
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: people out there that fall in love with these fucking criminals,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: and I just don't get it. Look, you can be
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: fair without riding somebody's jock. You can be fair without
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: glazing them. But I think some people have forgotten that.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: However, these findings... do not demonstrate that his diagnosis influenced
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: his decisions. Idaho prosecutors expected to respond to Kohlberger's petition
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: for post-conviction relief in the coming days. Under Idaho law,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the state generally has 30 days after a post-conviction application
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: is docketed to file an answer or seek dismissal, though
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the court can extend that deadline. Since Kohlberger's petition was
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: filed on July 27th, a response could come by late August.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: After reviewing the filings, Judge Stephen Hippler will decide whether
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to dismiss the petition or allow the case to move
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: forward to additional proceedings, such as an evidentiary hearing. So
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I don't think that they're going to be successful trying
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to get Koberger to get this plea knocked off the books.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: But weirder things have happened. So we'll keep an eye
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: on things. And when the prosecution responds, we'll get that
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: added to the catalog. All the information that goes with
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box.