Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Wife of Neighbor: SIXTH SENSE SCREAMS "KEEP KOHBERGER AWAY"

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Wife of Neighbor: SIXTH SENSE SCREAMS "KEEP KOHBERGER AWAY" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:04
Speaker 1: We are outside the crime scene behind us, the home
0:08
Speaker 1: where these four beautiful college students were murdered. All around
0:15
Speaker 1: us here at the crime scene in Idaho, people are coming,
0:19
Speaker 1: even in the rain, in the freezing temperatures, behind me
0:24
Speaker 1: to lay more flowers at the home where four beautiful
0:30
Speaker 1: University of Idaho students were murdered. Right behind me, the
0:35
Speaker 1: parking lot. We're out here really early in the morning.
0:38
Speaker 1: Typically there are throngs of newscasters and reporters all camped out,
0:44
Speaker 1: but I think the rain has scared them away, but
0:49
Speaker 1: not the people who are coming to pay their respects
0:55
Speaker 1: to those four students. Behind me, the morning shift of
0:59
Speaker 1: a twenty for our guard service that is protecting the home.
1:03
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you, from what I've seen a lot
1:06
Speaker 1: of reporters and oh gosh, crime aficionados, I believe that
1:13
Speaker 1: they would get right up on the house and try
1:15
Speaker 1: to get in the house if they could. So it's
1:17
Speaker 1: a good thing that that guard is there. Don't worry.
1:21
Speaker 1: We've been ringing them coffee throughout because it's phrasing here.
1:25
Speaker 1: Last night, again, we drove the route that Koburger drove
1:32
Speaker 1: leaving here. We followed his escape route determined by when
1:37
Speaker 1: he turned on his phone when he left the crime scene.
1:41
Speaker 1: It's really hard driving. We took a video of it.
1:44
Speaker 1: The roads are so bad. No one would take that
1:49
Speaker 1: route in their right mind. It's pitch dark, it was
1:54
Speaker 1: raining at the time. Nobody would take that hour plus
1:58
Speaker 1: route home when they could get home and just about
2:00
Speaker 1: ten minutes. Not only that, we go to his apartment
2:07
Speaker 1: and end up meeting and interviewing several of his neighbors,
2:12
Speaker 1: who as of this moment, had not spoken before. I
2:16
Speaker 1: mean it, say Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you
2:19
Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation in serious
2:21
Speaker 1: X one eleven. First of all, take a listen to
2:24
Speaker 1: our friends at NBC Brian Cooeburger again in court, the
2:27
Speaker 1: families of his victims are still looking for answers about
2:30
Speaker 1: a motive. Already for an emotional con the lawyer for
2:33
Speaker 1: Keiley gonzalves his family saying Koburger didn't know Kayley or
2:36
Speaker 1: Maddie Mugan as far as they know, I don't know
2:39
Speaker 1: of anybody that did know him. All those girls were social,
2:42
Speaker 1: they were involved in the college. They were working hard,
2:46
Speaker 1: waitressing and doing different things. So the idea that he
2:49
Speaker 1: may have ran across their paths. I don't think it's uncommon,
2:53
Speaker 1: the attorney, saying that Gonzalves family has been in frequent
2:56
Speaker 1: contact with investigators as they looked to build their case
2:59
Speaker 1: against Koburg. Well, anything that we have we can, we
3:02
Speaker 1: send over to the Moscow Police departments in court for
3:05
Speaker 1: a as it is called status hearing, is a typical hearing.
3:11
Speaker 1: We are just now waiting for that warrant to be unsealed.
3:16
Speaker 1: You know how long it to get the problem cause
3:18
Speaker 1: weren't for arrest us sealed. Well, now it may be
3:21
Speaker 1: up to two months or longer before we get the
3:24
Speaker 1: warrant to search his apartment with me an all star
3:27
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we're learning out here
3:30
Speaker 1: in Moscow, Idaho. First, I want to go to Cheryl McCollum,
3:34
Speaker 1: forensic expert and founder the Cold Case Research Institute. She
3:37
Speaker 1: saw also the star of Zone seven, a new hit podcast. Cheryl,
3:43
Speaker 1: I've got to tell you and everybody else what we
3:45
Speaker 1: learned from multiple neighbors last night. All right, listen to this.
3:50
Speaker 1: First of all, none of them want to be identified
3:55
Speaker 1: or connected to Coburger. They don't want to be called
3:57
Speaker 1: his friend, his acquaintance in anything. We learned that Coburger's
4:03
Speaker 1: father came all the way to Moscow earlier and helped
4:07
Speaker 1: Coburger move into his apartment there at Steptoe Village. We
4:11
Speaker 1: also learned that his father, who seemed like a really
4:14
Speaker 1: nice guy according to the neighbor, asked the neighbor to
4:20
Speaker 1: be friends with Coburger. It's like me arranging a play
4:23
Speaker 1: date from my twins when they're three years old. He
4:27
Speaker 1: asked him to be friends with Coburger and said it's
4:30
Speaker 1: really hard for his son to meet people or to
4:33
Speaker 1: meet friends. We learned that the FEDS took loads of
4:38
Speaker 1: stuff out of Coburger's apartment. We learned that inside Coburger's
4:43
Speaker 1: apartment it was very, very sparse, not a lot of
4:47
Speaker 1: stuff in there at all. We also learned that Coburger's
4:52
Speaker 1: apartment is right on top of a little child's apartment.
4:55
Speaker 1: There were a lot of children there in the apartment
4:58
Speaker 1: complex share and it was kind of quite a dichotomy
5:02
Speaker 1: to know an alleged mass killer was sharing a wall
5:07
Speaker 1: with a child. There are a lot of children in
5:09
Speaker 1: the apartment. We also learned something very unusual. I'll get
5:13
Speaker 1: Karen start to weigh in on this. So, while the
5:16
Speaker 1: neighbor was making friends with Coburger, as Coburger's father had
5:19
Speaker 1: asked him to do, at one point he was going
5:22
Speaker 1: to invite him over to dinner, and his wife said, don't.
5:25
Speaker 1: There's just something about him. I don't know what it is.
5:28
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I don't want him around. I
5:32
Speaker 1: find that and so much more of what the neighbor
5:34
Speaker 1: told me to be very very interesting, maybe even probitive
5:39
Speaker 1: as it comes to proving the case. Okay, Cheryl will
5:41
Speaker 1: call him jump in this shrive Nobody number one. We
5:44
Speaker 1: watched his dad answer questions for him to read police officer.
5:50
Speaker 1: The fact that his dad would say, hey, make friends
5:53
Speaker 1: with my son, be his buddy when his son is
5:56
Speaker 1: nearly thirty tells you that his dad slutely knows his
6:01
Speaker 1: son is not somebody that can navigate socially in this
6:05
Speaker 1: world by himself. He's proven it over and over and over.
6:09
Speaker 1: This is gonna again be a shock to nobody that
6:13
Speaker 1: this guy in social studies is awkward and doesn't know
6:16
Speaker 1: how to move about as a grown man. He also
6:21
Speaker 1: shares an office with two people that are also in
6:23
Speaker 1: the PhD program. I think they are going to be critical.
6:27
Speaker 1: I think his students are going to be critical. I
6:30
Speaker 1: think fellow classmates are going to be critical. We also
6:33
Speaker 1: heard from the woman that went on the date with him.
6:35
Speaker 1: Is said again she couldn't put her finger on it.
6:37
Speaker 1: She just wanted him away from her. Everybody that spends
6:42
Speaker 1: any amount of time with this man gets that gut feeling.
6:46
Speaker 1: You know. Another interesting thing the neighbor said was the
6:50
Speaker 1: father was super nice and he the neighbor believes the
6:54
Speaker 1: father and mother had no idea that Coburner could be
6:58
Speaker 1: a killer, that they only see him through the lens
7:01
Speaker 1: and being their son. But it's very clear to me.
7:03
Speaker 1: Karen starting joining me, renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan.
7:08
Speaker 1: She's at Karen Stark dot com. Karen is spelled with
7:12
Speaker 1: a sea. By the way, Karen, what do you make
7:15
Speaker 1: daddy trying to set up playdates for Terry Burger? Well,
7:18
Speaker 1: that's that's an arrested development, Nancy. I mean, as you said,
7:22
Speaker 1: it was something you did with your three year old
7:25
Speaker 1: son or daughter, and that makes sense to me. Is
7:29
Speaker 1: an introverted guy. And so many people interview talked about
7:35
Speaker 1: the fact that being was strange that they could pick
7:38
Speaker 1: up something and people do you do when you're around somebody.
7:44
Speaker 1: It's very weird that you here. He was out going.
7:48
Speaker 1: People will say, oh, he's a good neighbor, but you
7:51
Speaker 1: don't hear when it comes to killer. This kind of
7:54
Speaker 1: a teller that I mean, think about it. He was stalking.
7:57
Speaker 1: He was able to just be their own over and
8:00
Speaker 1: over again. He would drive it now very much to himself,
8:04
Speaker 1: as it is when you're in a PhD program, and
8:07
Speaker 1: you know, when you're in graduate school, you've got to
8:10
Speaker 1: spend so much time reading, studying, and that's perfect for him. Well,
8:15
Speaker 1: another thing that I found out, guys, and I'm going
8:18
Speaker 1: to go to special guests joining us Laura Ingles with
8:21
Speaker 1: a senior correspondent with Fox News Channel, Laura, we found
8:25
Speaker 1: out from speaking yesterday. We went all over Moscow and
8:29
Speaker 1: we spoke with students in the criminal justice program, the
8:33
Speaker 1: same program Coburger was in, and they're very upset and
8:39
Speaker 1: they pointed out something really critical that I didn't think
8:42
Speaker 1: about earlier. They said the day that the bodies were
8:47
Speaker 1: found here behind me, that an all school email went out,
8:52
Speaker 1: including to Coburger, stating there has been there have been
8:57
Speaker 1: homicided just off campus. WSU students excuse me, Eitherham University
9:02
Speaker 1: students are believed to be safe, WSU students believed to
9:08
Speaker 1: be safe. Classes are going to resume. They also said
9:14
Speaker 1: that the students that were afraid to come back to
9:17
Speaker 1: campus would be docked. In other words, it would be
9:22
Speaker 1: like missing class. You had to come back in person
9:26
Speaker 1: to campus. What do you think about that, Laura Angle,
9:30
Speaker 1: You know that you can only imagine opening that email,
9:33
Speaker 1: and you know, of course then we learned I think
9:36
Speaker 1: it was days later. You know, there was some attraction
9:38
Speaker 1: there from the place of you know, well, maybe there is.
9:40
Speaker 1: Obviously there is somebody still out there. But one of
9:43
Speaker 1: the things you mentioned talking to the neighbors where he
9:47
Speaker 1: lived in Washington, there was another neighbor that just this
9:51
Speaker 1: week came out and said to in published reports, said
9:55
Speaker 1: that Coburger came out right out to the murders and
9:58
Speaker 1: that time friend that you're talking about when email one
10:00
Speaker 1: out and so yeah, it seems like they have no leads.
10:05
Speaker 1: It seems like it's a crime of passion talking to
10:08
Speaker 1: one of these neighbors in his parking lot. And it
10:10
Speaker 1: reminds me of the arsonists. That goes back to check
10:14
Speaker 1: on the fire. Oh yeah, that's the whole thing, Laura Angel,
10:18
Speaker 1: to go back and look at your handiwork and get
10:20
Speaker 1: gratification from seeing what you've done. Yeah, Nancy, Yeah, go ahead.
10:25
Speaker 1: That's so typical of a pillar they do that. They
10:28
Speaker 1: go back when they're there, they try to take a sivenere,
10:31
Speaker 1: but they like to go back because they relived the
10:34
Speaker 1: excitement that they felt while it was happening. I also
10:38
Speaker 1: wonder did he go back because he realized that he
10:41
Speaker 1: dropped that sheep and the knife and was trying to
10:44
Speaker 1: figure out if there was a way that he could
10:46
Speaker 1: get back inside, you know, thinking about another thing that
10:50
Speaker 1: another neighbor told us that Coburger came around and was saying, hey,
10:56
Speaker 1: I heard police don't have any leads. They know what happened,
11:00
Speaker 1: and what have you heard, And just like you just said,
11:04
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, staying, wow, it's like it's a crime of passion.
11:07
Speaker 1: That was too a different neighbor. So he was out
11:10
Speaker 1: talking about it with people, but when it would get
11:12
Speaker 1: brought up in class, he'd clam up, Oh hey, Laura Ingle,
11:16
Speaker 1: I learned something else. You know. Let me throw this
11:18
Speaker 1: to Dale Carson with me high profile lawyer joining us
11:22
Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville. Former FBI agent and cop in Miami,
11:25
Speaker 1: author of a rest Proof Yourself Dale. Another thing we learned,
11:30
Speaker 1: and this was after we canvass multiple students at the
11:33
Speaker 1: school that they are not allowed to talk about the
11:39
Speaker 1: murders in class, in the criminology classes. They're not allowed
11:43
Speaker 1: to even bring it up. They will be asked to
11:45
Speaker 1: leave if they bring it up in class, and they've
11:48
Speaker 1: been told that it's a legal problem if they talk
11:52
Speaker 1: about it, which of course it's not. These are students
11:56
Speaker 1: at sw or students there at w Yes WSU. That's ridiculous.
12:03
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how it really is. It's
12:06
Speaker 1: a it's a violation of the pretty much speech and
12:10
Speaker 1: that should be a concern to any higher learning institution. Well,
12:14
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, are they afraid? Are the fact is
12:17
Speaker 1: the faculty afraid that they're gonna be accused of basically
12:23
Speaker 1: schooling a serial killer? Well they did? I mean, is
12:26
Speaker 1: that what they're worried about? Well they certainly. No. No,
12:29
Speaker 1: I disagree with you on that deal. I disagree with
12:31
Speaker 1: you because that would be like saying you go to
12:33
Speaker 1: law school and you run out and you commit torts
12:36
Speaker 1: because you went to a civil procedure, or you are
12:40
Speaker 1: a violent criminal because you had criminal law. That's that's crazy.
12:45
Speaker 1: That's crazy. Talk deal Carson, all right, well, it is
12:49
Speaker 1: a fact. Though you're gonna take that lying down. You're
12:52
Speaker 1: gonna take what I just said lying down. I wouldn't.
12:55
Speaker 1: I'd fight back, but go ahead. I believe that they intend,
12:59
Speaker 1: not intentionally, but they certainly did provide the level of
13:02
Speaker 1: information that appears on TV and NCIS and other programs
13:07
Speaker 1: that provide information to potential killers. And we all worry
13:11
Speaker 1: about this. We worry about getting on national news and
13:14
Speaker 1: talking about evidence acquisition, how they do it, all of
13:18
Speaker 1: these things, because it prepares evil people to address those issues.
13:22
Speaker 1: The only thing that protects us is the fact that
13:26
Speaker 1: they're gonna do it anyway, because there's something driving them
13:29
Speaker 1: that's very deep in their souls. So it's not like
13:32
Speaker 1: they're not going to do it. And clearly individuals who
13:35
Speaker 1: have never engaged in this behavior before make mistakes, as
13:39
Speaker 1: we're now seeing here. Nancy. When you talked about that
13:43
Speaker 1: edict going out for the students, that was at University
13:45
Speaker 1: of Idaho. When I was talking to the students, it
13:48
Speaker 1: was I was told the ones at WSU. We're told
13:52
Speaker 1: they cannot talk about Coburg or right, right, and they
13:54
Speaker 1: can't talk about the case, and they can't talk about
13:57
Speaker 1: any theory or anything like that. And I mean it's
14:00
Speaker 1: it's a real stretch. I mean, you could accuse any
14:03
Speaker 1: professor or anyone implanting those thoughts and a killer or
14:11
Speaker 1: for instance, what about this. I studied domestic relations in
14:15
Speaker 1: law school. So if I go and shoot up my house,
14:19
Speaker 1: do I then it's my teacher responsible for that? No,
14:24
Speaker 1: of course not. That's just way too attenuated. There's not
14:28
Speaker 1: annexus between the crimes crime stories with Nancy Grace. But
14:45
Speaker 1: I want to tell you what else we learned last night.
14:48
Speaker 1: We learned that a lot of people would see Coburger,
14:52
Speaker 1: but only walking in and out. He never wants from
14:56
Speaker 1: anybody we talked to. Was spotted bringing a woman a
15:00
Speaker 1: girlfriend into the apartment or even walking with them in
15:05
Speaker 1: the car with them. Never Okay. Chris mcdonnah joining me
15:09
Speaker 1: from the Cold Case Foundation. He's the director, former side,
15:12
Speaker 1: former homicide detective, and host of the interview Room. What
15:16
Speaker 1: do you make of that, Chris? Not surprising fancy. We
15:20
Speaker 1: know this individual obviously has very difficult time creating relationships.
15:29
Speaker 1: The fact that there's no obvious relationship also makes us
15:36
Speaker 1: think about, Okay, is there a sexual component to this.
15:39
Speaker 1: We're talking a lot about looking for them, but we're
15:45
Speaker 1: missing what we would call in the investigative process signature,
15:50
Speaker 1: and that would be the behavior that goes beyond the
15:52
Speaker 1: actions necessary to successfully commit this climb. We're seeing a
15:57
Speaker 1: lot of signature after it's come to the play here,
16:02
Speaker 1: and the fact that the university is maybe trying to
16:07
Speaker 1: quash that actually is detrimental to the investigation and quite
16:12
Speaker 1: frankly plays into the hand of the perpetrator. Guys, so
16:16
Speaker 1: much as happening fast and furious. Now criminalists all over
16:20
Speaker 1: are analyzing Koburger's quote amateur mistakes. I'm calling him a
16:26
Speaker 1: text book criminologist Cheryl McCollum, because when I say textbook,
16:32
Speaker 1: I mean he read a lot of books about criminology,
16:35
Speaker 1: about committing crimes. And I really do believe at this
16:39
Speaker 1: juncture until we find out something else that as I
16:43
Speaker 1: mentioned before in You and I discussed, he just wasn't
16:47
Speaker 1: getting enough of a thrill from reading about it and
16:50
Speaker 1: talking about it and talking to criminals and actually having
16:54
Speaker 1: students write essays. Oh, Kelly, remember last night. We also
16:58
Speaker 1: learned that there were shared docs where Coburger reportedly was
17:04
Speaker 1: having people write about the perfect crime and reading that.
17:11
Speaker 1: So I think, Cheryl, and again I'm a JD, not
17:14
Speaker 1: an MD, that it was no longer fulfilling him and
17:19
Speaker 1: he actually had to try and commit the perfect crime
17:22
Speaker 1: very well. Be you're talking about seven years. This is
17:25
Speaker 1: what he concentrated on at a higher educational level. Seven
17:29
Speaker 1: years he has studied. So to me, there's two points
17:33
Speaker 1: I want to make. One, you can read all the
17:35
Speaker 1: books you won't do on parenting, but until that baby's
17:39
Speaker 1: putting your arms and you're taken home by yourself, you've
17:41
Speaker 1: got no idea what you're in for. And that's just
17:44
Speaker 1: the fact. You study all you want, But that doesn't
17:47
Speaker 1: make you sleep, deprive, that doesn't make you fearful of
17:50
Speaker 1: sis and different things that are not really applicable until
17:53
Speaker 1: that baby's with you. The same as going to be
17:55
Speaker 1: for him. He had no idea of the sound, the force,
18:00
Speaker 1: the you know, the dog got in his way. Ethan
18:03
Speaker 1: woke up all of these factors that came to be
18:06
Speaker 1: that he did not count on or plan for it.
18:09
Speaker 1: Is a very different thing when you put something in
18:12
Speaker 1: action versus reading it in a book. Well, it's like
18:16
Speaker 1: a carpenter who forgets to put his hammer back in out.
18:21
Speaker 1: You know you can't do something like that, which you
18:23
Speaker 1: obviously did. And Cheryl, I call you magic Cheryl now
18:26
Speaker 1: because you really do understand the dynamic here in a
18:30
Speaker 1: way that I have frankly never heard before, which is
18:33
Speaker 1: the bacon of cake syndrome, where you have read the
18:36
Speaker 1: recipe but you can't really put a cake together unless
18:38
Speaker 1: you really know what you're doing, and you're a baker.
18:41
Speaker 1: And that's what's happened in this case. That's right going on, Nancy,
18:46
Speaker 1: there's a second thing going on. Everybody right now is
18:48
Speaker 1: talking about doctor Ramslin. Well, let me tell you something.
18:51
Speaker 1: How much time have I spent in Sunday school and
18:54
Speaker 1: in church? And there's a book sealed with how you're
18:57
Speaker 1: supposed to be I know the playbook. I know what's
19:00
Speaker 1: supposed to happen, But it has to be in me
19:03
Speaker 1: whether or not I'm going to be a good person. Hey, guys,
19:06
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on. We've compared the murders to making
19:10
Speaker 1: a cake, to raising a babe, to a carpenter and
19:14
Speaker 1: now we somehow drag in the Bible. But I'm hearing
19:17
Speaker 1: in my ear Laura Ingle has breaking knees, Senior correspondent
19:22
Speaker 1: fox Knews Channel, Laura, tell me what you know. Well,
19:26
Speaker 1: there is the thought here that this may not have
19:30
Speaker 1: been his first time. Right, We've all wondered could he
19:33
Speaker 1: have committed this crime allegedly on his first try, And
19:38
Speaker 1: so because of that, everybody has wondered has he done
19:41
Speaker 1: this before? It is being looked at. I have spoken
19:44
Speaker 1: to federal and local law enforcement here on the East
19:47
Speaker 1: coast in Pennsylvania and Washington that are looking at that.
19:52
Speaker 1: We know that there they are double checking and circling
19:56
Speaker 1: back where are the cold cases where there are no suspects.
19:59
Speaker 1: Now that he has been arrested, he's been fingerprinted, presumably
20:02
Speaker 1: in Coodus. They are double checking that, and we don't
20:06
Speaker 1: have any hits yet, but we are looking in to
20:10
Speaker 1: that and it could be a small crime, it could
20:12
Speaker 1: be a large crime. But it is definitely something that
20:15
Speaker 1: is going on right now as we speak, and we're
20:18
Speaker 1: waiting for any kind of hit, not just in the
20:22
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania area, but probably in Washington state as well. And
20:26
Speaker 1: I know can it be a virtual crime? Could it
20:29
Speaker 1: have been on his computers that have been seized where
20:32
Speaker 1: he gets on games and bills people to see how
20:36
Speaker 1: that actually works out? And the software writers certainly are
20:40
Speaker 1: not going to know all the ins and outs of
20:41
Speaker 1: bathing that way. Well, you know what I do know
20:44
Speaker 1: from the neighbors that the fans sees a ton of
20:48
Speaker 1: stuff out of Coburger's apartment. Guys, I know. The thing
20:52
Speaker 1: we learned last night is that the County jail here
20:56
Speaker 1: where he's being held as called the County Hotel. I
21:00
Speaker 1: call it camp Flower because I've learned that they offer
21:05
Speaker 1: the soothing music to wake the inmates up, that they
21:10
Speaker 1: order pizza sometimes for the inmates, that they have outdoor time.
21:16
Speaker 1: They have access to the library, which of course they
21:19
Speaker 1: should for their legal preparation. But it sounds like a
21:23
Speaker 1: pretty sweet deal. There are about forty two was at
21:27
Speaker 1: forty two or forty seven Kelly inmates at the County jail.
21:31
Speaker 1: He's one of them. But it sounds like a pretty cushy,
21:35
Speaker 1: pretty cushy jail to me, and kind of like, you know,
21:39
Speaker 1: a bigger version of the Mayberry Jail. And I'm not
21:41
Speaker 1: knocking it because where I grew up, it was the
21:44
Speaker 1: same way. But if and when he is convicted and
21:48
Speaker 1: goes into the state system, it's a whole another ball game.
21:52
Speaker 1: I want to talk more about the parking lot we
21:55
Speaker 1: saw last night outside of Coburger's place. There is just
21:59
Speaker 1: really no way that the neighbors couldn't have seen the
22:04
Speaker 1: white and lawn try it's part white in front of
22:06
Speaker 1: his apartment every single night. But I asked a neighbor,
22:11
Speaker 1: and I was afraid the neighbor is going to get
22:12
Speaker 1: mad at me. But the neighbor said, yeah, we saw it,
22:15
Speaker 1: but we just didn't put it together. I guess you
22:19
Speaker 1: see what you want to see, and you know what
22:21
Speaker 1: you want to know. I've seen that so many times.
22:24
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Oh, absolutely, And you know, Nancy, they want
22:27
Speaker 1: to feel safe. They don't want to believe that there's
22:30
Speaker 1: a murderer mass murder living one wall from them. They
22:34
Speaker 1: don't probably think like law enforcement to say they're searching
22:38
Speaker 1: for that car. A lot of times when something has
22:40
Speaker 1: always been there, like you know your neighbor's red truck
22:44
Speaker 1: or greenviewick, you're not ever looking at it again. It's
22:47
Speaker 1: just like when you look at your watch. You're not
22:49
Speaker 1: really looking for what time it is. You're looking for
22:51
Speaker 1: what time it's not because you're supposed to be somewhere
22:53
Speaker 1: at a certain time. They weren't looking for something that's
22:56
Speaker 1: always been there. Now we've learned that the search want
22:59
Speaker 1: for the apartment for Coburger's apartment has been sealed, and
23:03
Speaker 1: it's likely going to stay sealed, according to the judge,
23:06
Speaker 1: for about the next two months. Now, I wonder where
23:09
Speaker 1: the two months timeline came from. And it's sealed over
23:13
Speaker 1: quote serious and imminent threat. It also says premature public
23:18
Speaker 1: disclosure could threaten law enforcement, the integrity of the investigation,
23:23
Speaker 1: and public safety. Now, the judge also has a caveat
23:28
Speaker 1: that says it could be lifted earlier, but it's going
23:31
Speaker 1: to be at least two months. Who has any ideal,
23:35
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, why the search warrant for Coburger's apartment has
23:39
Speaker 1: been sealed? Yeah, that document that was published and we've
23:43
Speaker 1: was put out on December thirtieth, and just what you read,
23:47
Speaker 1: I mean, they've got it sealed. But they did make
23:48
Speaker 1: the judgment of caveats that it could be unfealed prior
23:53
Speaker 1: if there was reason but for right now. They want
23:56
Speaker 1: to hold the integrity just like we've seen for these
23:58
Speaker 1: last seven weeks, why they wanted to keep the information
24:01
Speaker 1: that probabill cause sealed up. So I'm super curious. I mean,
24:06
Speaker 1: we're talking about Brian Coberger's apartment, and we've often talked
24:09
Speaker 1: about the white Alantra, and when we were in Pennsylvania
24:14
Speaker 1: after his arrest, we drove around looking for lots to
24:18
Speaker 1: you know, maybe police lots where that car is probably
24:21
Speaker 1: held in a garage somewhere. But with the reporting that
24:23
Speaker 1: we've done covering crime stories as we have, we know
24:25
Speaker 1: about m back technology, about the new technologies that are
24:30
Speaker 1: used to pull out fibers and hairs and any kind
24:34
Speaker 1: of trace of DNA in a vehicle. So if there
24:38
Speaker 1: is that kind of information that's out yet we don't know,
24:41
Speaker 1: that could be something that we could be looking for.
24:43
Speaker 1: That's what I'm looking for as we moved down the road,
24:46
Speaker 1: when we look at the evidence from the car and
24:49
Speaker 1: from his home, which is going to be a huge
24:52
Speaker 1: list of items. You know, that's interesting what Laura Ingle
24:54
Speaker 1: just said, foxny's correspondent joining us in is being theorized.
24:59
Speaker 1: And I think it's correct that there is very likely
25:02
Speaker 1: more DNA evidence that we don't know about because it's
25:06
Speaker 1: most likely being processed right now. So we talk about
25:09
Speaker 1: an in fact. They're amazing. Cheryl McCollum describe what an
25:14
Speaker 1: im fact can do. It can extract DNA off items
25:18
Speaker 1: like a rock or a rope or clothing at a
25:21
Speaker 1: level that a bugle swab just cannot do. And Nancy,
25:25
Speaker 1: I can guarantee you they already have DNA off there
25:29
Speaker 1: because the killer he would have had to grab them
25:32
Speaker 1: on their bedclothes and hold them down. He touched the
25:35
Speaker 1: bed sheet. They have more DNA. There's no doubt in
25:38
Speaker 1: my mind. I sure hope. So Cheryl, go ahead, Dale,
25:40
Speaker 1: it's certainly in the car and that's where that can
25:43
Speaker 1: really payoff because clearly he tried to clean the car.
25:47
Speaker 1: There's evidence of that fact from Pennsylvania, and so there's
25:52
Speaker 1: a reason you try to intensely clean your car. There's
25:55
Speaker 1: a reason for that. And with these new sophisticated things
25:57
Speaker 1: which we are cerentially a vacuum cleaner, are really good
26:00
Speaker 1: filter in it you extract all that data or that
26:05
Speaker 1: DNA from their carpets or wherever the hell else it
26:08
Speaker 1: is because there's little doubt. As Cheryl said, you know,
26:11
Speaker 1: there's plenty of DNA, it just takes a minute to
26:14
Speaker 1: find it all. And of course the initial emphasis was
26:17
Speaker 1: on identifying the guy and arresting him to make sure
26:20
Speaker 1: he didn't kill somebody else or get away. And so
26:24
Speaker 1: they've accomplished that. Now they can take all the time
26:26
Speaker 1: they want in order to solidify the case against Stoneburger
26:31
Speaker 1: in a way that makes it evident that he's going
26:33
Speaker 1: to suffer the depth penalty. And that's called the Bardole method.
26:37
Speaker 1: Go ahead, because I'm really thinking about the car and
26:40
Speaker 1: where the trace evidence could be inside the car. And
26:43
Speaker 1: when I circle back to you, Cheryl, I want to
26:45
Speaker 1: hear more detailed description of how an emvact works when
26:49
Speaker 1: it comes to a car, specifically, do they have to
26:52
Speaker 1: cut the carpet out? Do they have to cut out
26:53
Speaker 1: the upholstery? Upholstery? But Chris mcdonnaugh, back to what you
26:58
Speaker 1: were saying, go ahead. So it's called the Bardole method, Nancy,
27:02
Speaker 1: And yeah, you can also get you can also get
27:06
Speaker 1: DNA touch DNA from jewelry on any of the victims.
27:10
Speaker 1: Let's say the suspect you had an interaction during the
27:14
Speaker 1: struggle where if he touched even items they were wearing,
27:19
Speaker 1: that method through the MVAC can pull that touch DNA
27:23
Speaker 1: off of that. Yeah, I keep thinking about the car,
27:25
Speaker 1: but in reality, right behind me is a treasure trove
27:29
Speaker 1: of evidence. And Cheryl McCollum, you and I were going
27:33
Speaker 1: back and forth yesterday off air about all the red
27:37
Speaker 1: sticky seals across the front door where obvious. It's like evidence.
27:42
Speaker 1: When you seal evidence, say DNA. You take a buhicle
27:45
Speaker 1: squab swab and you put it in an envelope and
27:48
Speaker 1: you send it to the crime lab. You seal it.
27:51
Speaker 1: Don't you remember how royals years ago would put lax
27:55
Speaker 1: on an envelope and they put their seal with their
27:58
Speaker 1: initial or whatever their mascot would be there, and if
28:02
Speaker 1: that were broken, then the recipient would know someone had
28:06
Speaker 1: read the message or even replaced it. Same thing with
28:10
Speaker 1: crime scene evidence. You close it up in an envelope,
28:14
Speaker 1: a brown manilla envelope, and you put tape over it
28:17
Speaker 1: and you sign on the tape or around the tape
28:21
Speaker 1: your name, your rank, and the date and time when
28:26
Speaker 1: it's opened up. It is then recorded who, what time
28:30
Speaker 1: and when it was opened up. And then after the
28:32
Speaker 1: testing is done, it's actually resealed again. Same thing with
28:37
Speaker 1: this house right behind me. The front door is covered
28:41
Speaker 1: with red tape horizontally placed on the door to show
28:46
Speaker 1: if anyone else has entered and broken the tape. It's
28:50
Speaker 1: really important because they may be going back in there
28:54
Speaker 1: because we've seen the lights right Sydney. We see the
28:57
Speaker 1: light go on and off in that bottom right room,
29:01
Speaker 1: so somebody has been in there for whatever reason. Go ahead,
29:05
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Well, that's exactly what they've done. They're going
29:08
Speaker 1: to maintain the integrity so that the prosecution and the
29:11
Speaker 1: defense knows exactly who came in and out of that
29:15
Speaker 1: house on what day and what time, and then they'll
29:18
Speaker 1: be able to show the corresponding evidence to show the
29:21
Speaker 1: reason they went in the house again and what they
29:23
Speaker 1: were able to retrieve. Now getting back to the imbat
29:26
Speaker 1: and the bargo message as well. This machine looks like
29:30
Speaker 1: a very miniature like carpet cleaner, like a steam cleaner,
29:35
Speaker 1: and it shoots down the solution that's exact same time
29:38
Speaker 1: that it sucked it back up on this cotton filter
29:41
Speaker 1: so that it can be then developed into a full
29:45
Speaker 1: profile of the person's DNA. Then they take that profile obviously,
29:50
Speaker 1: and they put it into CODIS and they do it
29:52
Speaker 1: in the ancestry if they need to. And in this case,
29:56
Speaker 1: my gut feeling is they use the private lab like
29:58
Speaker 1: off Frum to do the profile because it was done
30:01
Speaker 1: so fast, and like Dale said, now they're not in
30:05
Speaker 1: a hurry. They don't have to rush with the sheets
30:07
Speaker 1: or the clothing, or the jewelry or even the dog's
30:10
Speaker 1: collar for that matter. Anything they believe that this killer touched,
30:15
Speaker 1: they can potentially get DNA off of it. You know,
30:18
Speaker 1: you said Athram, I agree, and there's absolutely nothing wrong
30:22
Speaker 1: with the state crime labs. But sometimes some private DNA
30:27
Speaker 1: analysts such as Autham or paramind nano labs, they specialize
30:34
Speaker 1: in degraded DNA, mixed DNA, DNA that has mud in it,
30:39
Speaker 1: that has other particles in it other than the DNA
30:43
Speaker 1: they're looking for. That's their specialty, and they're not overloaded
30:48
Speaker 1: like state crime labs. They can do it more quickly.
30:51
Speaker 1: So I think that's what's happening. And as I always say,
30:54
Speaker 1: and you'll love this care and start when you don't
30:56
Speaker 1: know a horse, look at his track record. If this
30:59
Speaker 1: guy left his sheath from the murder weapon beside a
31:04
Speaker 1: victim on the bed. What else did he do? What
31:08
Speaker 1: other mistakes did he make? Beside that? The fact that
31:13
Speaker 1: his cell phone was cut off en route to the
31:16
Speaker 1: crime scene and then turned on on that lonely dirt road,
31:21
Speaker 1: bumpy dirt road in the middle of and I he
31:23
Speaker 1: turns it back on. That's an omission. It's not actively
31:27
Speaker 1: doing something, but it's if it's out of character, Like
31:32
Speaker 1: if he, like myself, leave my phone on all the
31:35
Speaker 1: time and I charge it at night, turned on, I
31:38
Speaker 1: leave it on all the time, and then at that
31:41
Speaker 1: particular moment he turns it off. That's uncharacteristic, and that
31:46
Speaker 1: omission proves something here in Stark. Yeah, Nancy, for we
31:50
Speaker 1: kept talking about you know he's a student, and you
31:54
Speaker 1: know he's studying this. You have to get into graduate school,
31:57
Speaker 1: you have to be so and first such a smart by.
32:00
Speaker 1: He made so many stupid mistakes and didn't really take
32:06
Speaker 1: it through clearly when I had this image that he
32:09
Speaker 1: kept rehearsing in his mind. But even the fact that
32:14
Speaker 1: he's surrounded by blood, right, how is he going to
32:17
Speaker 1: get all of that out of his car? It's gutty
32:20
Speaker 1: bit on his clothes somewhere, on his shoes, on the
32:24
Speaker 1: gas pedal on it's there he left the seat. I
32:28
Speaker 1: mean he made he didn't think of small details that
32:34
Speaker 1: you would have assumed he was sure about and careful
32:37
Speaker 1: of that time stories with Nancy Grace to Dale Carson.
32:55
Speaker 1: It was either Dale or Chris mcdonna that first brought
32:59
Speaker 1: up the idea on the killer having a quote layer
33:02
Speaker 1: behind the house, and we went up there and examined
33:06
Speaker 1: so many spots where the killer could have sat and
33:09
Speaker 1: looked right in to the bedroom windows of the girls.
33:14
Speaker 1: Do you think anybody on the panel that he wore
33:19
Speaker 1: a protective outfit and then discarded the clothes on his
33:23
Speaker 1: escape route, or would he be stupid enough to take
33:26
Speaker 1: the clothes home and try to wash them? Jump in Chris,
33:29
Speaker 1: I think he came prepared for that evening and after
33:34
Speaker 1: the incident. I believe he did discard those items in
33:40
Speaker 1: various locations, which is consistent with the idea of he
33:47
Speaker 1: had a fantasy purpose here. What that is we don't
33:52
Speaker 1: know yet, but he was very consistent and you know
33:57
Speaker 1: the overkill after the scene. What he did you know
34:01
Speaker 1: when he left? To your point show, I'm going to
34:05
Speaker 1: be really surprised if they find those particular items in
34:09
Speaker 1: the house, with the exception of the knife, What about
34:12
Speaker 1: the shoes? What about the shoes, Chris, I'm going to
34:15
Speaker 1: be surprised, I think, Cheryl, will you jump in here.
34:19
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really surprising if he
34:23
Speaker 1: still has no shoes. But it's possible, but I'm not
34:29
Speaker 1: going with it yet. Agree or disagree, Dale Carson. I've
34:31
Speaker 1: handled a number of these cases, and typically the individual
34:35
Speaker 1: is wearing a jumpsuit and takes all of that clothing
34:38
Speaker 1: off and throws it in a dump truck. And we
34:40
Speaker 1: have a significant period of time between the time that
34:43
Speaker 1: that white car was at least identified to the public
34:46
Speaker 1: and the actual killing. So there's plenty of opportunity for
34:50
Speaker 1: those things to be in a dump somewhere, but it's
34:52
Speaker 1: going to be too difficult to find them in the dump,
34:55
Speaker 1: so they're not going to do that sort of processing.
34:58
Speaker 1: But the idea that he kept stuff, you know, that's
35:01
Speaker 1: certainly consistent with serial killers, but I don't know that
35:04
Speaker 1: it's consistent here because, as one of your other guests,
35:07
Speaker 1: Joseph says, you know, if there's a fracture in that night,
35:11
Speaker 1: that's still in one of the bones in the body.
35:13
Speaker 1: They can find that fracture and connect the two together.
35:16
Speaker 1: He can't be that dumb, although I will say anyone
35:20
Speaker 1: with any sense would have left his phone on and
35:23
Speaker 1: back at his apartment and that way you have no
35:25
Speaker 1: condant you guys. I want to circle back to why
35:28
Speaker 1: there is a serious threat damage and premature public disclosure
35:34
Speaker 1: of this a warrant, This warrant could threaten law enforcement.
35:39
Speaker 1: Why could they possibly put that those words in the
35:43
Speaker 1: judge's decision to seal the search want for Coburger's apartment?
35:49
Speaker 1: Why would they do that? Cheryl McCollum, Nancy Billy. Time
35:52
Speaker 1: I've heard of that happening is if somebody has connections
35:54
Speaker 1: to gain or drug activity. Now I do know that
35:58
Speaker 1: he's had a past addiction to heroin. If he got
36:01
Speaker 1: back on some type of drug and was meeting somebody,
36:05
Speaker 1: you know, different locations, and again his phone will tell that,
36:08
Speaker 1: his activity will tell that, his bank account will tell that.
36:10
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they were afraid that this person may
36:13
Speaker 1: have some type of retaliation toward law enforcement, if they
36:16
Speaker 1: think law enforcement is going to make a connection and
36:19
Speaker 1: come after them as a secondary maneuver. Well, it could
36:22
Speaker 1: be novel investigative techniques as well. I'm not sure what
36:26
Speaker 1: you mean by novel investigative techniques, but I will tell
36:30
Speaker 1: you this, they're playing it really smartly because they did
36:34
Speaker 1: not release that PCF of David that talked about DM
36:39
Speaker 1: identifying Coburger or in other words, not him by name,
36:44
Speaker 1: but could describe him to an extent. They did not
36:47
Speaker 1: release that until he was in jail to make sure
36:51
Speaker 1: he couldn't come back and kill her kill DM. They
36:55
Speaker 1: also stated or put it out there that DM and
37:00
Speaker 1: the f the other roommates he made it. They made
37:03
Speaker 1: it very clear they were on the first floor. For
37:06
Speaker 1: in fact, they were on the second. At least DM
37:08
Speaker 1: was on the second floor with the ability to watch
37:11
Speaker 1: the killer leave. So they kept that a secret until
37:16
Speaker 1: after he was behind bars. And I'm wondering if a
37:19
Speaker 1: similar strategy is not being employed with a search warrant
37:23
Speaker 1: for his apartment. Laura, what was next? Well, circling back
37:27
Speaker 1: to what you mentioned about the search warrants on page
37:30
Speaker 1: two and talking about why these search warrants would be sealed,
37:35
Speaker 1: they also mentioned the personal privacy that b item two
37:38
Speaker 1: on the search warrants the personal privacy interests of the witness,
37:41
Speaker 1: victims and victims families named in the application filed in
37:44
Speaker 1: this cause also supports sealing the documents filed in this matter.
37:49
Speaker 1: So's it's an impact on law enforcement in public safety,
37:52
Speaker 1: but also about the personal privacy. And as we have
37:55
Speaker 1: seen with the other victims families, we've heard from the
37:59
Speaker 1: Gonzalvaes family quite a bit. As we know, Ethan Chapin's
38:03
Speaker 1: family members just basically broke their silence speaking about the
38:07
Speaker 1: case in a Facebook page, the mother talking about on
38:12
Speaker 1: an update saying that anything that they have had for
38:16
Speaker 1: Ethan is now frozen with the defense. The family of
38:20
Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin going on to say for us, it involved
38:23
Speaker 1: two vehicles, ease belonging, and a nice set of golf clubs.
38:28
Speaker 1: They've met with, prosecutors, handled media inquiries, managed, grieved, talked,
38:32
Speaker 1: and continued to try to process what they call their
38:35
Speaker 1: new normal. So there is who knows what in those
38:39
Speaker 1: search warrants that they want to keep private from all
38:42
Speaker 1: of us as they continue to process these multiple crime scenes.
38:47
Speaker 1: And I also want to mention I was asking about
38:50
Speaker 1: the University of Idaho earlier. We know that classes have
38:53
Speaker 1: resumed Ethan was a triplet. His brother and sister, Maisie
38:57
Speaker 1: and Hunter returned to the campus of University of Idaho
39:00
Speaker 1: this week. That could be another reason why you know,
39:03
Speaker 1: people are being very careful with them. They're going back
39:05
Speaker 1: to their classes. Can you imagine these three children, these siblings,
39:09
Speaker 1: these triplets, chose this college. I spoke to the family
39:13
Speaker 1: spokesperson for Ethan Chapan this week. They said, these three
39:17
Speaker 1: chose University of Idaho to be together. They wanted to
39:20
Speaker 1: learn together, they wanted to have the college experience together,
39:24
Speaker 1: and now two are returning without their brother this week.
39:27
Speaker 1: Laura Engel, that just broke my heart. And then Ethan's
39:32
Speaker 1: family posted a picture of the triplets when they were
39:34
Speaker 1: young and just heartbreaking to me. Multiple bombshells emerging from
39:42
Speaker 1: the hearing and that was held at the courthouse. It
39:45
Speaker 1: was called a status conference, but this is what emerged.
39:48
Speaker 1: Coburger's preliminary hearing, where we will hear more evidence, has
39:53
Speaker 1: been set for June twenty six at nine am. We
39:58
Speaker 1: all know that Coburger was in for his status hearing
40:01
Speaker 1: in an orange T shirt and he told the court
40:04
Speaker 1: he waived his right to a speedy trial. That is significant.
40:10
Speaker 1: Under our constitution, you can demand a speedy trial. You
40:13
Speaker 1: don't have to stay in jail for a year before
40:16
Speaker 1: your trial goes to a jury. If a speedy trial
40:20
Speaker 1: is demanded, the state has to gather its evidence and
40:23
Speaker 1: try you in that grand jury term, which is usually
40:26
Speaker 1: two months and one other. In other words, your trial
40:30
Speaker 1: will go down within four to six months if you
40:34
Speaker 1: file a speedy trial demand. We know that preliminary preliminary
40:38
Speaker 1: hearing is set. I'm surprised they're not using a grand
40:41
Speaker 1: jury instead of a preliminary hearing because the state will
40:44
Speaker 1: have to show part of its case to the defense
40:48
Speaker 1: at a preliminary hearing where a grand jury is conducted
40:51
Speaker 1: in secret. Right now, we expect the arrest, I mean
40:55
Speaker 1: the search warrants for Coburger's apartment to be released on
40:58
Speaker 1: March one. We're hoping they were released before then. Behind me,
41:05
Speaker 1: even in the rain and it's really cold out here,
41:09
Speaker 1: people are continuing to come and leave flowers in memory
41:14
Speaker 1: of the four victims that died right behind us, and
41:20
Speaker 1: we will do the same. Nancy Gray's comes story signing
41:24
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,