Latest / Pit Talk / Christian Horner has been sacked, but what's next for Red Bull Racing and Max Verstappen?

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Christian Horner has been sacked, but what's next for Red Bull Racing and Max Verstappen? · Pit Talk

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, brought to you by Shannon's.
0:03
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Christian Horner has been sacked as CEO
0:06
Speaker 1: and team principal of Red Bull Racing after two decades
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Speaker 1: in the job, in a seismic day for Formula One,
0:13
Speaker 1: just when it was meant to be taking a break.
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Speaker 1: To my name's Michael Lobonado. It's great to have your
0:16
Speaker 1: company and the company of my co host. He's put
0:19
Speaker 1: his empty Red Bull can outside the front of his door.
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Speaker 2: It's Matt Clayton, straight into the recycling. No use for that, Nimo,
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Speaker 2: Michael Vice. Everything comes to an end red Bull cans
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Speaker 2: and a Red Bull Formula one team principles apparently. But look,
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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I think maybe for
0:34
Speaker 2: the last out of twelve to eighteen months, the fact
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Speaker 2: that this has happened is maybe not a surprise, but
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Speaker 2: I think maybe the timing of it is a surprise,
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Speaker 2: and I'm sure we'll cover that in the next twenty
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Speaker 2: minutes or so.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a it's not so much a
0:45
Speaker 1: question of why, although obviously the question of why is
0:47
Speaker 1: still to be resolved, but we can fill in a
0:49
Speaker 1: lot of those blanks. The question of why now is
0:51
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult, but that leads us into
0:55
Speaker 1: what I think is almost most remarkable about this news
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Speaker 1: is just how hard to see coming despite the fact
1:01
Speaker 1: that Horner clearly has had a lot of internal enemies
1:03
Speaker 1: at the team. The speculation of a Maxisappen's future will
1:06
Speaker 1: touch on all of this, but it's very rare in
1:09
Speaker 1: Formula one for there to be any secrets when it
1:12
Speaker 1: comes to news. The last genuinely big secret I can
1:14
Speaker 1: think of was Nico Rosberg's retirement. Yes, that's because he
1:17
Speaker 1: announced it himself when he decided, and that was in person,
1:21
Speaker 1: in public. He didn't really have to tell anyone beforehand.
1:24
Speaker 1: This was a genuine shock out of the blue. There
1:26
Speaker 1: was no warning that this was coming.
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Speaker 2: No, because I don't think there's been anything particularly on
1:31
Speaker 2: track that's been so significant in the short term that
1:35
Speaker 2: makes you think, well, that is the final tipping point.
1:38
Speaker 2: So it goes back to the why of this decision.
1:40
Speaker 2: We know what's happened now, but is it a performance
1:43
Speaker 2: related tipping point? What's the urgency for this? Because it
1:46
Speaker 2: strikes me as being a little bit odd. You know,
1:49
Speaker 2: we've not made it to the mid season break, yet
1:51
Speaker 2: that seems like it would be a more sensible period
1:53
Speaker 2: to perhaps make a change like this. But the key
1:56
Speaker 2: thing for me is we're so deep into twenty twenty
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Speaker 2: five now, the second half of this season. We know
2:01
Speaker 2: it's not half of a calendar year. It goes very
2:03
Speaker 2: very quickly with all the back to backs. We've got
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Speaker 2: a completely new look Formula one coming up in twenty
2:08
Speaker 2: twenty six, and one of the biggest players in the
2:12
Speaker 2: sport over two distinct periods over two decades is now
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Speaker 2: out the door at a time of enormous uncertainty in
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Speaker 2: the sport, let alone within that team. And I think
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Speaker 2: that's the significant part of this. The timing and why
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Speaker 2: now is the most interesting part, as opposed to why
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Speaker 2: he's actually gone in the first place.
2:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like, I mean, we can kind we
2:32
Speaker 1: can describe perhaps two trigger points for this decision being made.
2:36
Speaker 1: One we can infer quite easily because we've known for
2:40
Speaker 1: the last well essentially since Dietrich Matters has died in
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, which created the power vacuum that created
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Speaker 1: all the factional warfare that we've been enjoying or braced
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Speaker 1: for for the last couple of years. Is that Horner's
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Speaker 1: counted the backing of the time majority ownership of Red
2:55
Speaker 1: Bull in his corner, and that's kind of been his
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Speaker 1: trump card. That's been the thing that's protected him against
3:00
Speaker 1: all the pressure from inside and also a semi externally
3:04
Speaker 1: from the staff and camp from else with staff in particular.
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Speaker 1: We can only assume now that that has evaporated that
3:10
Speaker 1: what the culbination of situations, the combinations and motivations to
3:14
Speaker 1: remove him from his post have now overcome that support
3:17
Speaker 1: have been enough for that support to waiver or fade
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Speaker 1: away and motivate the change. So we know that, But
3:23
Speaker 1: it's the culmination of all those other little things that
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Speaker 1: I think are interesting, and I think if we want
3:29
Speaker 1: to try and deduce some of the reasons or where
3:32
Speaker 1: these reasons are coming from, we have to go back
3:34
Speaker 1: to that timing. As you say, it's sort of like
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Speaker 1: the timing of right now is has to be quite specific.
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Speaker 1: Right because it was anything to do with a controversy
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Speaker 1: he brings to the team by personality, by the investigation
3:46
Speaker 1: to him last year, you would have done it last year.
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Speaker 1: If it was about performance, you would surely wait till
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Speaker 1: the end of the year, or at a minimum the
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Speaker 1: mid season break, because this season says so much time
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Speaker 1: to play out. We don't know if fred Boo can
3:57
Speaker 1: turn this year around or potentially next year when we
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Speaker 1: know whether or not the gamble's Christian Horner has made
4:03
Speaker 1: on strategizing for Red Bull's new future will pay off,
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Speaker 1: or whether the engine will be no good, in which
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Speaker 1: case you can draw a line under it. The timing
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Speaker 1: for this to me, Matt suggests that it must be
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Speaker 1: Verstappen related because it's the only significant Red Bull news
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Speaker 1: item that has been rocking the team for the last
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Speaker 1: month now.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there's one of two ways you
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Speaker 2: can look at this. It's like, could this be a
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Speaker 2: case of the Verstapen camp saying, well, if he doesn't go,
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Speaker 2: then we will and we know that there's offers out
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Speaker 2: there with Mercedes, Or is the reason that Christian Horner
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Speaker 2: has gone is because they already know that Max Vstappen
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Speaker 2: has already gone, which is a completely different conversation for
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Speaker 2: that team going forward for twenty twenty six. It's always
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Speaker 2: going it's already going to be a big difference with
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Speaker 2: no Christian Horner at the helm. But could you imagine
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Speaker 2: a red Bull racing right now with no Horner running
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Speaker 2: it and no Vastapan driving for it. What's the stat
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Speaker 2: I think vastapan'scored ninety seven percent of that team poids
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Speaker 2: this year or some You know, you may as well
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Speaker 2: just enter one car, as Sir Jepero is intimated they did.
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Speaker 2: But to my mind, it's got to be one of
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Speaker 2: those two things, because there's nothing significant that's happened to
5:05
Speaker 2: perhaps accelerate this story in the recent past. But you
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Speaker 2: mentioned something earlier about the death of Detric Matterships in
5:12
Speaker 2: October twenty twenty two, and you know, once there was
5:15
Speaker 2: a respectable period of moarning for something like this, there's
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Speaker 2: always going to be a power struggle going on behind
5:20
Speaker 2: the scenes. I do wonder if this decision was inevitable
5:24
Speaker 2: from quite a long while ago. But the fact that
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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three they won all but one race,
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Speaker 2: and in twenty twenty four they won the World Championship
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Speaker 2: kind of backed their way into it after the first
5:32
Speaker 2: half of the season was so good. But they won
5:34
Speaker 2: the championship nonetheless, so the end justified the means. You know,
5:38
Speaker 2: you still come out of those two seasons with two
5:40
Speaker 2: drivers championships and one constructors title. I wonder, now finally
5:45
Speaker 2: some of the issues that maybe were prevalent at the
5:47
Speaker 2: end of twenty twenty two have come home to roost,
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Speaker 2: because you can look at these points tables now and
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Speaker 2: they're clearly not winning either the championship this year. Was
5:54
Speaker 2: this just the inevitable outcome of what happened at the
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Speaker 2: end of twenty twenty two and we've just moved this,
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Speaker 2: you know, move the goalposts on this because they kept
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Speaker 2: winning for a while until they didn't. I wonder if
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Speaker 2: that's part of this too.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's important to recognize, isn't it that this
6:08
Speaker 1: team was run in a relatively unusual way by Formula
6:12
Speaker 1: One stands all the teams are quite different now because
6:15
Speaker 1: they're huge structures with different ownerships and all that kind
6:18
Speaker 1: of thing. But Dietrich Mattershits ensured this team was funded
6:21
Speaker 1: very well, that had everything it needed, but never really
6:23
Speaker 1: intervened in the running of It was in the background
6:25
Speaker 1: and users required of and around driver signings and things
6:28
Speaker 1: like that. But really it was the team that Christian
6:30
Speaker 1: Horner was allowed to run as he saw fit with
6:32
Speaker 1: a relatively long leash via Helbert Marco, the motorsport advisor,
6:37
Speaker 1: essentially liaised between Red Bull the business and Red Bull's
6:40
Speaker 1: Formula One team, but that obviously couldn't continue after Matterschitz's
6:44
Speaker 1: death because he was no longer there, to put it frankly,
6:47
Speaker 1: and it also changed the way Red Bull operated. It's
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Speaker 1: now obviously much less centered around one figure. It operates
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Speaker 1: more conventionally with a variety of different chief executives. The
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Speaker 1: ownership or the forty nine percent ownerships passed down to
7:00
Speaker 1: Gratituate's son, but I don't think he really has any
7:03
Speaker 1: executive control over the company, or at least not in
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Speaker 1: the Formula one sense. So just by virtue of that
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Speaker 1: top down direction, changing the way that Christian Horna was
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Speaker 1: allowed to run the team as his own team was
7:15
Speaker 1: always going to change because it isn't his team. At
7:17
Speaker 1: the end of the day, he's the team brinctal, he's
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Speaker 1: the CEO, but he doesn't own it, and inevitably there
7:21
Speaker 1: were going to be people trying to fill those spaces.
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Speaker 1: And it does seem like Matt that for the last
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Speaker 1: three years, I suppose two years since that time, Horner
7:29
Speaker 1: had largely won his own way. He runs a lot
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Speaker 1: of the team, not just the team now as well,
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Speaker 1: but a lot of the technical enterprises power trains has
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Speaker 1: been started in that time. But he runs that exerts
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Speaker 1: a lot of control at racing bulls now as well.
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Speaker 1: It's much more an arm of red bull racing, I
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Speaker 1: suppose than it was in the past. And as a result,
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Speaker 1: you know, you talk about how these decisions he's made
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Speaker 1: are coming home to roost, it really does feel like
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Speaker 1: a lot of them are on his shoulders. Were he
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Speaker 1: made that have now sort of spiraled out of control
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Speaker 1: and come back to bite him. You know, realities had
8:05
Speaker 1: to hit eventually.
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Speaker 2: I do like it how you refer to all of
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Speaker 2: those things in the present tense. And I'm not blaming
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Speaker 2: you for that, because we're just so used to Christian
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Speaker 2: hornerbeg sononymous with running all of these things, and we
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Speaker 2: know we now have to go with the oh, he
8:17
Speaker 2: ran those things past tense, so we have to get
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Speaker 2: our tenses right, which is a strange thing to say,
8:21
Speaker 2: but I guess what you're saying before in terms of
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Speaker 2: this one man in the situation, one person having so
8:27
Speaker 2: much influence and so much control. This is a throwback
8:30
Speaker 2: to the era in which he came up, because you know,
8:32
Speaker 2: he's been Rebels team only team principal from two thousand
8:35
Speaker 2: and five onwards. And you look at Formula one two
8:38
Speaker 2: thousand and five, when he came in as a team principal,
8:40
Speaker 2: he was barely at he thirties, and a lot of
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Speaker 2: the old dogs that were team principals at that point
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Speaker 2: really didn't take him or the team particularly seriously because
8:48
Speaker 2: you had big, big names and big personalities and really
8:52
Speaker 2: fearsome people running these teams like Ron Dennis and Jean
8:55
Speaker 2: Todd and Sir Frank Williams and that real old guard
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Speaker 2: of Formula one Horneer looked like the kids who was
9:00
Speaker 2: a work experience at that time really didn't fit in
9:03
Speaker 2: the team was not really taken seriously at all. It
9:07
Speaker 2: looked like they were just there to move some cans
9:08
Speaker 2: and have a good time basically. And it's what's interesting
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Speaker 2: is that he has now become the big dog that
9:14
Speaker 2: they were. But you're running a team. Sorry, he ran
9:18
Speaker 2: a team past, Yes, he ran a team in a
9:21
Speaker 2: very very sort of two thousand and five to ten way.
9:24
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty five, where Formula one has become much
9:28
Speaker 2: much bigger, much more corporate the structures of these leadership groups.
9:32
Speaker 2: It's not just one person calling the shots in just
9:34
Speaker 2: about any one of these. They report to boards, they
9:36
Speaker 2: have a lot of underlings to them. He was still
9:38
Speaker 2: running the team in an old school way, So it's
9:41
Speaker 2: funny he was so anti establishment and the team was
9:44
Speaker 2: anti establishment when he came in, and they became the
9:47
Speaker 2: establishment in a lot of respects. They became the outlier
9:50
Speaker 2: because they were run differently to everybody else. It was
9:53
Speaker 2: the same way in two thousand and five. It's just
9:55
Speaker 2: a different type of different, isn't it.
9:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it is interesting to think about the way
9:59
Speaker 1: different teams are run and how this has contributed to
10:02
Speaker 1: Christian or a feeling perhaps like he's been backed into
10:04
Speaker 1: a corner because there's not really any other teams that
10:06
Speaker 1: are run like this. Sore a graphic earlier today. I
10:10
Speaker 1: wish I'd saved it so I could tell you about it.
10:12
Speaker 1: But it's essentially comparing how many victories, first of all,
10:15
Speaker 1: and championships, and then how many team principles Red Bull
10:17
Speaker 1: Racing and Ferrari have had in two thousand and five,
10:20
Speaker 1: and unsurprisingly, there are many more team principles on the
10:23
Speaker 1: Ferrari side, but many more victories and titles on the
10:25
Speaker 1: Red Bull Racing side, because it is historically a method
10:28
Speaker 1: that has worked. But because of the nature of Formula
10:31
Speaker 1: One teams and the F one business, the idea of
10:34
Speaker 1: having an owner operator is pretty fanciful because there's not
10:38
Speaker 1: very many people who can simply own and then have
10:41
Speaker 1: the expertise to run a team. Total Wolf's the only
10:42
Speaker 1: one who gets closer and Stirdy a third of the
10:45
Speaker 1: Mercedes team, but even he styles himself less as an
10:48
Speaker 1: active team principle and more as a like a supervisor
10:52
Speaker 1: if you like, of the entire team. You don't see
10:54
Speaker 1: him on the pitwall making decisions. An example where's Christian
10:56
Speaker 1: Houno is always very active on the pitwall right in
10:59
Speaker 1: the middle of everything continues to go through him in
11:02
Speaker 1: a way that I think is slightly different to Toto Wolf.
11:05
Speaker 1: I think Christian Norlan was actually asked about this recently,
11:07
Speaker 1: kind of likened it to the way Aston Martin now
11:10
Speaker 1: runs with Andy Cowe. But I don't see that many
11:12
Speaker 1: similarities there because the shadow of Lawrence Stroll just simply
11:16
Speaker 1: looms so large over that team that I don't think
11:19
Speaker 1: it ever could be so I do wonder whether a
11:21
Speaker 1: success was that idea has been and as lauded as
11:24
Speaker 1: that idea is as well, there's a real in Formula one,
11:27
Speaker 1: almost a longing for those days where someone would really
11:31
Speaker 1: went through one person. I'm just not convinced Formula one
11:35
Speaker 1: today and it's grown so much as well as sport
11:36
Speaker 1: in the last five years, as have the teams can
11:39
Speaker 1: be run in that way, and perhaps that's part of
11:41
Speaker 1: what we're seeing here.
11:42
Speaker 2: Well. I think this is going to be part of
11:43
Speaker 2: Christian Horner's legacy, and I think he's going to be
11:47
Speaker 2: the last person to run a team like this. I
11:51
Speaker 2: don't see in the future of Formula one that there's
11:53
Speaker 2: going to be anyone that comes in that has that
11:55
Speaker 2: amount of longevity power influence over so many areas of
12:00
Speaker 2: the business. I think he is the last of the
12:02
Speaker 2: dinosaurs in that respect. I don't think we're ever going
12:05
Speaker 2: to see this again. And the fact that he was
12:07
Speaker 2: able to do this for so long in a Formula
12:10
Speaker 2: one world that's changed multiple times over those twenty years
12:14
Speaker 2: is hugely commendable when you look at the success they've
12:16
Speaker 2: had and the graphic that I haven't seen this, but
12:18
Speaker 2: I can absolutely imagine what it's going to look like
12:20
Speaker 2: in terms of team principles versus championships one. It's a
12:24
Speaker 2: very very uneven graph, But I think he is the
12:26
Speaker 2: last person that's ever going to run a team like this,
12:29
Speaker 2: And the fact that he was able to do it
12:30
Speaker 2: for so long and have these two really distinct periods
12:34
Speaker 2: of success, the Sebastian Vastal era the Maxistapan Area era,
12:38
Speaker 2: a lot of winning in between. I just don't think
12:40
Speaker 2: we're ever going to see this again. And for all
12:42
Speaker 2: of the achievements and the stats that I'm sure we're
12:44
Speaker 2: going to go into, that might be the greatest legacy
12:47
Speaker 2: in that I just don't see in the future, given
12:49
Speaker 2: in what formula one is now, that one person in
12:52
Speaker 2: one team can have their fingerprints on so many aspects
12:54
Speaker 2: of the business.
12:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, I mean, it's easy to compare
12:57
Speaker 1: with McLaren because mclaran's doing so well at the moment,
12:59
Speaker 1: but it struck me the other day in conversation that
13:02
Speaker 1: McLaren fields best set up. And again it's so easy
13:05
Speaker 1: to say that when they're winning titles, but you have
13:07
Speaker 1: Zach Brown playing the very high profile political figure who
13:12
Speaker 1: goes out there and also cops that he's in the
13:14
Speaker 1: position to cop flak on behalf of the team as
13:16
Speaker 1: the CEO, but then doesn't have to go and run
13:19
Speaker 1: the team, having taken that damage in some cases, or
13:23
Speaker 1: having spent the day being on the offensive making jokes
13:26
Speaker 1: a Christian Harner's expense or whatever you have. Andrea Stella
13:29
Speaker 1: the engineer's brain, the man who's come up through the team,
13:31
Speaker 1: who's worked with the people actually running it. Two very
13:36
Speaker 1: different characters in the way they present and the way
13:38
Speaker 1: they operate in the paddock and external to the paddock.
13:40
Speaker 1: But that feels like a better balance now considering the
13:44
Speaker 1: pressures and expectations on a single team principle or CEO
13:48
Speaker 1: character if you like.
13:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, agretted and the other part of the McLaren story
13:51
Speaker 2: here as well. There's a bit of the Mattershit's angle
13:53
Speaker 2: in this. In the Bahrony sovereign fund that pumps so
13:56
Speaker 2: much money into McLaren, they largely provide the money and
13:59
Speaker 2: get out of the way and employ people to do
14:01
Speaker 2: the job. And I think that was one of the
14:02
Speaker 2: great strengths of Red Bull during the Mattershit's ownership, was
14:05
Speaker 2: that they were never wanting for anything but he never
14:10
Speaker 2: wanted to be involved in the way the team was
14:11
Speaker 2: being run. And I think in the McLaren thing, it's
14:13
Speaker 2: not the same obviously, but it's a similar setup in
14:16
Speaker 2: that the money and the resources provided and then you
14:20
Speaker 2: employ the experts in their fields to get on with
14:22
Speaker 2: the business of winning. And that's what we've seen now.
14:25
Speaker 2: And then you look at the the job's become too
14:28
Speaker 2: big now for our person, you know, the Brown Stellar
14:30
Speaker 2: double act. It's a really interesting dynamic between those two
14:34
Speaker 2: because I think each of them is strong where the
14:36
Speaker 2: other isn't. And there's you know, Stella's got the engineer's
14:39
Speaker 2: touch and maybe the more granular approach and Zach Brown
14:42
Speaker 2: is you more big picture sponsorship, marketing, overall overarching view
14:47
Speaker 2: of how our team should be run. I mean, Recentcy
14:50
Speaker 2: advises everything and we can look at the results and say, well,
14:52
Speaker 2: aren't they doing a good job? But I think they
14:54
Speaker 2: were doing a good job from the moment they became
14:56
Speaker 2: a double act. I think now the points table is
14:58
Speaker 2: just starting to reflect that maybe this is the way
15:01
Speaker 2: to run a Formula One team. And you know the
15:04
Speaker 2: old saying about inimitation being the greatest form of flattery.
15:06
Speaker 2: I think a lot of teams will look, with the
15:08
Speaker 2: exception possibly Ferrari because I've just going to do Ferrari things.
15:10
Speaker 2: But you'll see a lot of other teams will look
15:12
Speaker 2: at the way McLaren's running and try and find their
15:15
Speaker 2: equivalents in those positions because it's clearly the right recipe
15:18
Speaker 2: at the moment. It also probably brings into more focus
15:22
Speaker 2: that the Red Bull way was a way of the past,
15:25
Speaker 2: and while it had its reasons to be successful because
15:27
Speaker 2: it had Adrian Newey, and it had Sebastian Battle, and
15:30
Speaker 2: it had Max Forstapan, there's a time limit on this
15:33
Speaker 2: sort of thing, and I think it's being phased out
15:34
Speaker 2: as a way to run a Formula One team in
15:36
Speaker 2: twenty twenty.
15:37
Speaker 1: Five, undeniably one hundred and twenty four race victories, fourteen championships,
15:40
Speaker 1: that's six constructors, eight drivers titles is his legacy in
15:44
Speaker 1: It's funny I was thinking this morning. Red Bull statistics
15:47
Speaker 1: as one of the great Formula One teams are his statistics.
15:50
Speaker 1: He is the only team residents, the only guy's ever
15:52
Speaker 1: run it. They are his stats. So his legacy is
15:55
Speaker 1: enormous as much as the way he's bowed out it's
15:58
Speaker 1: sort of been a bit of a peatre out, not
16:00
Speaker 1: only through a declining sense of competitiveness at the team,
16:03
Speaker 1: but also this sort of ungracious or somewhat undignified exit
16:07
Speaker 1: or press release exits are never very satisfying it. That's
16:10
Speaker 1: part of it, but undoubtedly as a significant legacy. We'll
16:12
Speaker 1: talk a little bit later on about how that might
16:14
Speaker 1: be applied to formulae later. Obviously, everyone wants to know
16:17
Speaker 1: where this intersects with Maxwistappan, which has been the news
16:20
Speaker 1: story of the last month, particularly the last week or two,
16:23
Speaker 1: rumors that he could affect from the team that he
16:27
Speaker 1: is talking tom Besides, it's less of a rumor. Mercedes
16:29
Speaker 1: has said that they are talking to his management. The
16:31
Speaker 1: rumor is the significance of that. But we talked on
16:34
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier that this seems to be a
16:37
Speaker 1: case of either the verstap in camp saying it's it's
16:40
Speaker 1: essentially us or him, or saying we are already gone,
16:44
Speaker 1: and Horner essentially carrying the can for that. But I
16:46
Speaker 1: think what's interesting, Mattter is if we do look at
16:48
Speaker 1: the way Horner has run the team to get to
16:51
Speaker 1: this point, particularly in the last was a decade now really,
16:55
Speaker 1: or if you want to just say the seven years
16:56
Speaker 1: since Daniel Ricardo left, although these moves are already been
16:59
Speaker 1: put in place, then this is a team that has
17:01
Speaker 1: become increasingly centered on Max Verstappan to the point where
17:05
Speaker 1: no other driver can even score in this team. Seven
17:07
Speaker 1: points for Yuki Sinda, so fard to see it one
17:09
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty something. I think for Max it's sort
17:12
Speaker 1: of ironic that it feels like that set up that,
17:15
Speaker 1: as you say, did reap great rewards, you know, one
17:18
Speaker 1: championships with that configuration, appears to be significant in Horner's
17:22
Speaker 1: downfall massively.
17:23
Speaker 2: So when you think of the amount of times that
17:25
Speaker 2: Max would do something that was shall we say, borderline
17:28
Speaker 2: or perhaps just you know, completely wrong or the wrong
17:30
Speaker 2: thing to do. Like Horner was the great enabler, and
17:34
Speaker 2: he allowed for Stappan to perhaps get away or deflect
17:37
Speaker 2: some of the scrutiny or the criticism that was going
17:41
Speaker 2: to go against for Staffan because of various things he
17:43
Speaker 2: did on track or set off track. But it was
17:45
Speaker 2: very much the playbook he used with Sebastian Vattle as well.
17:47
Speaker 2: He was always in Sam's corner and you know you look,
17:49
Speaker 2: at the end of the day with Sebastian Vettel in
17:51
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, the car was no good, so he left.
17:54
Speaker 2: And Formula One drivers are fickled with these sorts of
17:56
Speaker 2: things because they will go where the performance is. And
18:00
Speaker 2: so as relates to your previous question about Max Verstappan,
18:04
Speaker 2: we don't have a crystal ball for this particular episode,
18:06
Speaker 2: but if I was going to dust mine off, I
18:09
Speaker 2: would almost guarantee that this ensures that Max is going
18:13
Speaker 2: to stay for the rest of this for next season,
18:16
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty six, because what he now becomes is
18:19
Speaker 2: the most coveted asset on the driver market whenever he
18:22
Speaker 2: decides he wants to be in that market. Given you've
18:24
Speaker 2: got this brand new formula and reset for twenty twenty six,
18:27
Speaker 2: would it not behoove for Stappen in his camp to
18:30
Speaker 2: see what it is that Red Bull have got with
18:32
Speaker 2: new leadership and a new power traded and new formula
18:35
Speaker 2: and maybe this is the roadmap back to the top again,
18:38
Speaker 2: because if it's made pretty clear early in the twenty
18:41
Speaker 2: twenty six season, that's not the way to go. He
18:44
Speaker 2: has the status in the sport that he could phone
18:46
Speaker 2: any team principle for whichever team it is hits the
18:48
Speaker 2: ground running the fastest at the start of next year
18:51
Speaker 2: and say I'd like to come and drive for you.
18:53
Speaker 2: Let's make this happen, and you know that it would.
18:56
Speaker 2: So I would think in the short term it would
18:58
Speaker 2: probably guarantee that he stays. Now, I could be completely
19:01
Speaker 2: wrong by the top of this podcast is but I
19:02
Speaker 2: think this is going to be more likely that he
19:05
Speaker 2: stays for the short term and then holds all the
19:07
Speaker 2: power for the longer term once we get twenty twenty
19:10
Speaker 2: six and how this brand new formula plays out, and
19:13
Speaker 2: history is a guide with these sorts of things. I mean,
19:15
Speaker 2: you were in the sport at this point. You think
19:18
Speaker 2: back to twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, the large last
19:21
Speaker 2: rule change of this significance that we had. Red Bull
19:23
Speaker 2: won the final nine races of twenty thirteen, they won
19:26
Speaker 2: four championships in a row with Sebastian Vattle, and then
19:29
Speaker 2: we got to twenty fourteen and they were absolutely hopeless
19:31
Speaker 2: and Mercedes basically wiped the floor with everybody for years
19:34
Speaker 2: after years after years, and they weren't particularly good in
19:36
Speaker 2: twenty twelve and thirteen. So on, really big regulation changes
19:40
Speaker 2: the balance of power. It doesn't just slightly shift, it
19:43
Speaker 2: can completely be turned upside down. And I would imagine
19:46
Speaker 2: that Vastapan has got he could go wherever he wants
19:49
Speaker 2: to once he reads the tea leads as to who's
19:51
Speaker 2: good and who's not. And I think short term this
19:53
Speaker 2: probably keeps him where he is, but longer term perhaps not.
19:57
Speaker 1: So let me put this you there, because let's assume,
20:00
Speaker 1: and this is us making an assumption because there is
20:02
Speaker 1: so little information about this situation. Conveniently, there are two
20:05
Speaker 1: weekends off for middle one, so there'll be a while
20:06
Speaker 1: before questions can be put in firston to many of
20:08
Speaker 1: the key players. But let's assume that this has been
20:12
Speaker 1: a result of essentially pressure from the Vestapen camp saying
20:16
Speaker 1: we don't like Haunt the way Horn's running things. If
20:17
Speaker 1: he doesn't go, then we're out. And Red Bull's acquiesce
20:20
Speaker 1: to that decision that puts a lot of power into
20:23
Speaker 1: vestap In camp's hands pretty explicitly right, that you have
20:26
Speaker 1: the power to decide who the team principle is or
20:28
Speaker 1: who it is not, at least in this case. And
20:30
Speaker 1: there are rumors as well that they're not particularly impressed
20:33
Speaker 1: with the leader of the technical department, Pierre Wasche since
20:36
Speaker 1: he's elevated to the top job at the expense of
20:38
Speaker 1: Adrian Nuey, and who knows what that means for him,
20:40
Speaker 1: considering Christian Horna was one of his big backers, and
20:43
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. But then, after all of this,
20:46
Speaker 1: after the fact that the Vestapen camp has potentially dictated
20:49
Speaker 1: the identity of the team principal, perhaps other people. Obviously
20:52
Speaker 1: Helbert Marco's status is somewhat elevated by this as well,
20:56
Speaker 1: considering he's a verstapin camp. If he then leaves next year,
21:00
Speaker 1: what was the point of all of this nowithstanding that, okay,
21:02
Speaker 1: maybe Christian Horner's style of team principalship has run its
21:05
Speaker 1: course and for the last eighteen months a lot of
21:07
Speaker 1: people have left under the leadership of Christian Horner. Doesn't
21:10
Speaker 1: that just debase the entire organization further that you've made
21:13
Speaker 1: so many decisions based on someone who may well leave it,
21:15
Speaker 1: about who decide to leave it about six months time.
21:18
Speaker 2: Yes, it does. But there's also the red Bull playbook
21:21
Speaker 2: in that, as we were talking about before, there's always
21:23
Speaker 2: been this element that when they have the prize driver asset,
21:27
Speaker 2: which they did with Vattle and they do with Verstappen.
21:30
Speaker 2: They will do every single thing to keep that particular
21:33
Speaker 2: person on side because they are difference makers. Like seb
21:36
Speaker 2: was absolutely brilliant, and that iteration of Formula One cars
21:38
Speaker 2: have won four championships. Perhaps a little bit more limited
21:41
Speaker 2: on a wider scale, but at the time, with the
21:43
Speaker 2: equipment that was available, he was the man for four
21:46
Speaker 2: straight years. I think what Vastappen has done in the
21:49
Speaker 2: past eighteen months, and we've talked about this, probably puts
21:52
Speaker 2: his career historically into a better light. Because it's one
21:55
Speaker 2: thing to win and be a kingpin when you've got
21:58
Speaker 2: the best car on the greed. It's another thing entirely
22:00
Speaker 2: to do it when you don't. And from the middle
22:03
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, and you mean, you look at
22:04
Speaker 2: what he's done this year, the fact that he's even
22:06
Speaker 2: third in the Driver's Championship and he's managed to win
22:08
Speaker 2: some races. I can't think of as a very very
22:12
Speaker 2: short list of other drivers who could do what he
22:14
Speaker 2: has done this year, probably a list of exactly zero.
22:17
Speaker 2: I think he's absolutely fantastic this year. So when there
22:20
Speaker 2: is a chance to accumulate power and wield that power
22:23
Speaker 2: as you see fit. Why wouldn't you take it if
22:26
Speaker 2: you were part of his camp and you know it
22:28
Speaker 2: means you hold all the cards and the other thing
22:31
Speaker 2: with Max, of course, he's achieved so much success so
22:34
Speaker 2: young that he now gets to right the back end
22:36
Speaker 2: of his story.
22:37
Speaker 1: Now.
22:37
Speaker 2: Do we expect him to be running around in Formula
22:39
Speaker 2: one at forty three like Fernando a lotso? Absolutely not.
22:42
Speaker 2: But it still feels to me that he's at the
22:44
Speaker 2: age and stage of his career with enough runway left
22:48
Speaker 2: that he can dictate this final chapter and as to
22:51
Speaker 2: where that is and being on the right horse at
22:53
Speaker 2: the right time with this huge regulation reset for twenty
22:55
Speaker 2: twenty six, do you use all that power to stay
22:58
Speaker 2: where you are and have a team that's completely bent
23:01
Speaker 2: to your will? A little bit of sort of Michael
23:03
Speaker 2: Schumacher era Ferrari perhaps in that, Or do you look
23:06
Speaker 2: at what's coming along in twenty twenty six and go, oh,
23:09
Speaker 2: these guys have got it very very right, whether that
23:11
Speaker 2: be Mercedes or somebody else, And then you have this
23:14
Speaker 2: second chapter of your career winning somewhere else in a
23:17
Speaker 2: different set of circumstances. I think we always look at
23:19
Speaker 2: these drivers and writers in motor GP differently. If they're
23:22
Speaker 2: able to win several times with different manufacturers in different forms,
23:26
Speaker 2: I think it elevates a driver in the status of Wow,
23:29
Speaker 2: this guy really was quite something because it wasn't a
23:32
Speaker 2: specific team in a specific set of circumstances that enabled
23:35
Speaker 2: them to win. I just think that right now the
23:37
Speaker 2: Vestap and camp has all the cards they can determine
23:39
Speaker 2: where this goes. But I don't think we're going to
23:42
Speaker 2: get a shorter term move on this. I think it
23:43
Speaker 2: might be slightly longer term.
23:45
Speaker 1: There's one other difference I think between Better leaving the
23:48
Speaker 1: team and Verstap and threatening or perhaps having decided to
23:52
Speaker 1: leave the team, and that is when Vette left, it
23:54
Speaker 1: was still a time that Red Bull seemed to genuinely
23:57
Speaker 1: believe in its driver program and its candidates. Because, of
24:00
Speaker 1: course Daniel Ricardo had just been elevated to the team
24:03
Speaker 1: and proved a stern challenge for Sebastianville and obviously turned
24:06
Speaker 1: out to be really quite a good driver at Red
24:07
Speaker 1: Bull Racing, and obviously behind him eventually came well. Daniel
24:11
Speaker 1: Kiveat is probably less remembered, but max forstaffened inevitably turned up,
24:15
Speaker 1: and so that flow was still happening. I want to
24:18
Speaker 1: turn our attention to the future of the team now
24:20
Speaker 1: because it's now all Laura Meckia has problem as CEO
24:24
Speaker 1: and team principle to manage whatever's left of the circumstances here.
24:28
Speaker 1: But one of the problems is that the team feels
24:31
Speaker 1: much less secure if a if a post for staff
24:35
Speaker 1: in future is to come to pass, and it will eventually,
24:36
Speaker 1: whether or not it's in the coming years or he
24:38
Speaker 1: just retires it into twenty eight, it's going to turn
24:40
Speaker 1: up eventually. The problem of performance from the second car
24:43
Speaker 1: at the moment occupied by Yuki Sonoda is significant. The
24:46
Speaker 1: problem of how much the team can have confidence in
24:49
Speaker 1: the drivers at racing bulls is a problem now Isac
24:52
Speaker 1: Hatch is doing quite well, but Yuki Sounoda is doing
24:54
Speaker 1: quite well to start of the year as well. Liam
24:56
Speaker 1: Lawson's already been turfed out from Red Bull Racing. Then
24:58
Speaker 1: we add the question about it's going to be quite
25:00
Speaker 1: a big set of circumstances are going to put you
25:02
Speaker 1: well the power unit program. There are lots of rumors
25:05
Speaker 1: about power unit programs No one knows how well or
25:07
Speaker 1: badly they're doing, because it's impossible to but there are
25:09
Speaker 1: a lot of rumors that it's a little bit behind
25:11
Speaker 1: the curve, and certainly Christian Orna had been talking down expectations.
25:14
Speaker 1: It'll be up to Laura meche is to manage those
25:16
Speaker 1: next year in an era of significant change, and with
25:19
Speaker 1: a team that's depleted of some pretty significant chiefs from
25:22
Speaker 1: the last two decades. It's a pretty big job to
25:27
Speaker 1: take on, isn't it That there's a lot on mechey
25:30
Speaker 1: has played And I was a little bit surprised to
25:31
Speaker 1: find out this morning when Red Bull completed it's half
25:35
Speaker 1: of the announcement that he will be in exactly the
25:37
Speaker 1: same role as CEO and team principal.
25:40
Speaker 2: Massive massive shoes to feel. And also from a position
25:43
Speaker 2: of I wouldn't say you're expected to fail given the
25:46
Speaker 2: circumstances that you inherit this in. But if this thing
25:50
Speaker 2: is even neutral, let alone a success, that's almost going
25:52
Speaker 2: to be a surprise, because you think there's going to
25:54
Speaker 2: be some sort of perhaps downturn or ramifications from this.
25:58
Speaker 2: It really is a very very difficult role, and if
26:00
Speaker 2: you're Laurel meck is, you're hardly going to say no,
26:02
Speaker 2: let's be perfectly honest when the phone rings. But that's
26:05
Speaker 2: a seriously, seriously tough task because the other factor you
26:08
Speaker 2: just mentioned them before is that Rebel Racing effectively becomes
26:11
Speaker 2: a fully fledged works team in its own right because
26:14
Speaker 2: they're going to be producing their own engine in house.
26:16
Speaker 2: They've always been an engine customer. That's a big leap
26:19
Speaker 2: for a company that's never done this before, let alone,
26:22
Speaker 2: you know, a business like RedBull Racing is so well
26:24
Speaker 2: established over these twenty years, but this is a different
26:28
Speaker 2: task that they're undertaking as a startup, with a new
26:31
Speaker 2: set of rules, with a lot of up people and uncertainty.
26:34
Speaker 2: So look, it's it's a massive challenge. And what's interesting
26:37
Speaker 2: we were talking off air before we started here in
26:39
Speaker 2: that a lot of people who are relatively new to
26:41
Speaker 2: Formula one would only know Red Bull as being a
26:44
Speaker 2: championship contending drivers and constructors championship contending outfit over the
26:49
Speaker 2: past fifteen years, because that's what they've mostly been. And
26:52
Speaker 2: then even in the years where things were a bit down,
26:54
Speaker 2: like say twenty fourteen that we mentioned before, the only
26:57
Speaker 2: other driver and team to win races in that Mercedes
26:59
Speaker 2: dominated twenty fourteen new formula was three race wins v.
27:02
Speaker 2: Daniel Ricardo for Red Bull Racing. For our win a race,
27:05
Speaker 2: nobody else fired a shot, So we've only ever known
27:07
Speaker 2: him as being a successful team. You forget that for
27:10
Speaker 2: the first five years of their existence, they might snag
27:12
Speaker 2: a podium here or there, but they were in the
27:14
Speaker 2: hunt for absolutely nothing from two thousand and five up
27:16
Speaker 2: until two thousand and nine. So maybe we need to
27:20
Speaker 2: reframe our expectations for what Red Bull Racing might be
27:23
Speaker 2: in this new formula, which is not something we've had
27:25
Speaker 2: to countenance for a really long time now.
27:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it is now completely new red Bull Racing.
27:30
Speaker 1: As we said, Christian Hornand was the only team prince
27:32
Speaker 1: all they had a lot of the staff we've talked
27:34
Speaker 1: in recent in the rescent eighteen months are the only
27:37
Speaker 1: people who have ever filled those positions of the team.
27:39
Speaker 1: This is a new Red Bull Racing now. And the
27:41
Speaker 1: final one I want to put you out is that
27:42
Speaker 1: this is also a new year for Christian Horner. For
27:44
Speaker 1: two decades doing the same thing since he was thirty one,
27:46
Speaker 1: I think it was. If he's fifty one now, it
27:50
Speaker 1: must be a little bit frightening for him. I guess
27:52
Speaker 1: shouldn't fel too sympathetic. He's quite wealthy as a result
27:54
Speaker 1: of all this. But what do you think he's going
27:57
Speaker 1: to do next? This is a question I've been wondering
27:59
Speaker 1: all more since since that happened last night. And I'm
28:03
Speaker 1: not convinced, not one hundred percent convinced we will see
28:06
Speaker 1: him in a similar role in Formula one. But I'm
28:08
Speaker 1: also not convinced that we won't see him in Formula one.
28:11
Speaker 2: No. I mean, you could be slightly disingenuous here and say, well,
28:14
Speaker 2: our PA need a team principle about every three months,
28:16
Speaker 2: so he could possibly, you know, he could wait ten
28:18
Speaker 2: minutes and that job might come up again, So you
28:20
Speaker 2: have to wonder with that. I think the you know,
28:23
Speaker 2: a lot of people have been drawing a line between
28:26
Speaker 2: Horner and Ferrari, given that he was approached previously, and
28:29
Speaker 2: it was you know, Horner who pretty much said that
28:31
Speaker 2: you should go and talk to Fred Vassa, who'd be
28:32
Speaker 2: a good guy to do it. So I know there's
28:35
Speaker 2: been some uncertainty with Vassa's role and the fact that
28:37
Speaker 2: Ferrari has been a little bit disappointing in the Italian
28:39
Speaker 2: presses rattling xabers as they tend to, but I wouldn't
28:43
Speaker 2: be surprised. I don't think. Look first thing first, I
28:45
Speaker 2: don't think he's going to jump at anything. He's not
28:47
Speaker 2: a guy who needs to be employed tomorrow. Let's be
28:49
Speaker 2: perfectly honest. But you mentioned it before. He's fifty one
28:52
Speaker 2: and in Formula one senior management terms, there's a lot
28:56
Speaker 2: left for him to do. I don't think his energy
28:59
Speaker 2: and the ability to lead, I don't think that's going
29:02
Speaker 2: to go to waste. He's going to end up somewhere.
29:04
Speaker 2: But a slightly cheeky thought, imagine him in Stefano Dominicali's role,
29:09
Speaker 2: actually running Formula one rather than running one of the
29:11
Speaker 2: ten teams. Now, that would be interesting, wouldn't it.
29:14
Speaker 1: That would be very interesting. I don't know if Toto
29:16
Speaker 1: Wolf would like it. For one, I think there might
29:18
Speaker 1: be a couple of people who may not love it.
29:20
Speaker 1: But you know, he does certainly have the expedition there.
29:22
Speaker 1: We're rumors now thinking back in the Bernie Eckleston days.
29:26
Speaker 1: One day he would replace Bernie, wasn't it? Because they
29:28
Speaker 1: get along and they probably think in a similar way,
29:31
Speaker 1: and I think that's quite a good pick. I'm not convinced,
29:34
Speaker 1: my I'm not convinced everyone thinks it's a good poe.
29:36
Speaker 1: But I can see it happening. I can see it working,
29:38
Speaker 1: and I can see him enjoying that, and I think
29:40
Speaker 1: Formula probably get something out of that as well.
29:42
Speaker 2: But I also think he would actually do a pretty
29:44
Speaker 2: good job. Yeah, roll, I mean, you take a lot
29:45
Speaker 2: of them. You know, it's very hard to separate the
29:47
Speaker 2: politics from the person in this situation. And yes, there
29:50
Speaker 2: are some I was going to say some sores, but
29:52
Speaker 2: more some gaping wounds with some of these other principles
29:55
Speaker 2: that he would possibly be running over the top of there.
29:58
Speaker 2: But in terms of the leadership skills and what he
30:01
Speaker 2: would need to bring to the role and the energy
30:03
Speaker 2: of moving Formula one into its post twenty thirty future
30:06
Speaker 2: or whatever that's going to be, he certainly will qualify
30:09
Speaker 2: for a job like That's just a matter of whether
30:11
Speaker 2: he would want to do it.
30:12
Speaker 1: I guess yes. And it would give Formula one a
30:14
Speaker 1: chance to use one of its favorite phrases, poacher turned gamekeeper.
30:17
Speaker 1: Ah Yes, just be wary look out for that one.
30:22
Speaker 1: It will be very interesting, no doubt, a lot of
30:24
Speaker 1: change still to come and a lot still to learn
30:26
Speaker 1: about this move in the next couple of weeks. The
30:28
Speaker 1: Belgian Grand Prix not until the end of the month,
30:30
Speaker 1: so expect plenty of rumor and speculation to swirl unless
30:34
Speaker 1: and until someone decides to fill us in in whatever
30:38
Speaker 1: manner they choose, whether that be a driver or perhaps
30:41
Speaker 1: Horner himself if he has kept some receipts on his
30:43
Speaker 1: way out of Milton Keynes. But that's all the time
30:46
Speaker 1: we have for pit Talk today. You can subscribe to
30:47
Speaker 1: Pittalk wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and you can
30:50
Speaker 1: leave us a rating and a review as well, and
30:52
Speaker 1: a reminder. This weekend is a Supercars towns will five
30:54
Speaker 1: hundred with Friday's race at three forty pm and races
30:56
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30:59
Speaker 1: can catch the German Motorcycle Grand Prix with lights out
31:01
Speaker 1: at ten pm Sunday, and you can keep up to
31:03
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31:06
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31:09
Speaker 1: and me Michael Lomonado, Thanks very much for your company
31:11
Speaker 1: and we'll catch you next week.