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The Power of Personal Impact · Unlocking Vulnerability

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Unlocking Vulnerability, the podcast that explores what vulnerability
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Speaker 1: really looks like in everyday life. I'm Helen, and in
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Speaker 1: each episode, I'm joined by a different guest who'll bring
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Speaker 1: their unique insight and perspectives from across the vulnerability space.
0:20
Speaker 1: We'll discuss the realities behind vulnerability and what it takes
0:24
Speaker 1: to respond when people need additional support. We're glad to
0:28
Speaker 1: have you here, so grab a cup of tea and
0:30
Speaker 1: let's get started. Welcome back to Unlocking Vulnerability with me,
0:36
Speaker 1: Helen Pettifer. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Michael Reeve,
0:40
Speaker 1: who is the DDSN Chair in the Equality, Diversity, Inclusion
0:44
Speaker 1: team at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust. Hello, Michael.
0:49
Speaker 1: It's wonderful to have you on the podcast today.
0:51
Speaker 2: Hi, Helen. Good afternoon. Thank you for providing me the
0:55
Speaker 2: opportunity to come and have a chat with you.
0:57
Speaker 1: Oh, no, you're really welcome. I'm really looking forward to
0:59
Speaker 1: our conversation today. I've got my tissue ready because I
1:02
Speaker 1: know that we're... When we first chatted, I got a
1:04
Speaker 1: little bit emotional. I think the listeners are prepared for
1:08
Speaker 1: my emotional thoughts there. So before we get into what
1:12
Speaker 1: we want to talk about today, do you want to
1:14
Speaker 1: give a brief introduction to yourself?
1:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, no problem.
1:18
Speaker 3: So like Helen said, my name is Michael Reeve and
1:22
Speaker 3: I am somebody that's lived my life with albinism. and
1:26
Speaker 3: a symptom of that albinism is a severe sight impairment.
1:29
Speaker 3: I've had success in sport, I've faced challenges and now
1:34
Speaker 3: I work for the University Hospitals of Leicester where my
1:38
Speaker 3: specific focus.
1:38
Speaker 2: Is on inclusion and belonging and ensuring that.
1:41
Speaker 3: Every colleague has a voice and feels like that voice
1:43
Speaker 3: has meaning and brings power.
1:45
Speaker 1: Brilliant and you're doing amazing work there so and I
1:48
Speaker 1: know that you've got a lot of interesting and powerful
1:51
Speaker 1: things that you want to share with the listeners today
1:53
Speaker 1: so I'm interested to get to get stuck into that.
1:57
Speaker 1: So is there an action or something somebody has said
2:01
Speaker 1: to you that changed your perception of disability?
2:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
2:07
Speaker 3: So I think probably the time that I look back
2:09
Speaker 3: most on in my life where that interaction probably had
2:13
Speaker 3: the biggest impact was being sat in a school assembly
2:16
Speaker 3: and a lady called Avril Lennox and Jill Stidiver came
2:20
Speaker 3: to talk to the school about the youth games, which
2:23
Speaker 3: was taking place at Loughborough University. and after Avril had
2:27
Speaker 3: kind of given the overview of what the games were
2:29
Speaker 3: about Jill very specifically spoke to children and pupils at
2:34
Speaker 3: the school that had disabilities and spoke about how we
2:38
Speaker 3: could take part and how we could bring value and
2:40
Speaker 3: how this competition was not only open to us but
2:43
Speaker 3: it really wanted us to take part and I think
2:46
Speaker 3: that was probably one of the first times that somebody
2:50
Speaker 3: had spoken directly to me, rather than seeing an impairment
2:54
Speaker 3: and speaking about the impairment, that impairment wasn't, you know,
2:58
Speaker 3: it was irrelevant. It was, if you have an impairment,
3:01
Speaker 3: we want you to come and take part. We want
3:03
Speaker 3: you to be a part of this fantastic event. So
3:05
Speaker 3: I think that's probably one of the big points in
3:09
Speaker 3: my life where my perception of disability and my perception
3:13
Speaker 3: of my own impairment really shifted and changed.
3:18
Speaker 1: Amazing. So so what what did that lead to then?
3:21
Speaker 1: So obviously that that took you to two different places
3:25
Speaker 1: and different different sort of outputs for your life.
3:28
Speaker 2: Yeah.
3:29
Speaker 3: So I think I think it's important to kind of
3:31
Speaker 3: capture before that interaction with Jill and Avril. You know,
3:35
Speaker 3: I was born into a family of seven brothers and sisters. So,
3:39
Speaker 3: you know, my younger years and being a young child,
3:42
Speaker 3: there was always somebody around to kind of support me
3:44
Speaker 3: without knowing they were supporting me. There was kind of
3:47
Speaker 3: always somebody around to get into trouble with. So in
3:51
Speaker 3: my very young years, I didn't really know I had
3:53
Speaker 3: a difference. I didn't really know that I had an impairment.
3:57
Speaker 3: And then when I moved into school, sadly, that experience changed.
4:02
Speaker 3: And it was very quickly made apparent to me that
4:04
Speaker 3: actually I was different. And it was the children and
4:08
Speaker 3: the environment of school that taught me I was different
4:10
Speaker 3: before anything or anyone else did. And through that lens,
4:14
Speaker 3: I think, you know, unintentionally, the school wanted to protect me.
4:17
Speaker 3: They wanted to keep me safe. And unintentionally, more often
4:21
Speaker 3: than not, that resulted in me missing out on lots
4:24
Speaker 3: of opportunities through thinking that I wasn't able to do it.
4:28
Speaker 3: And the intent was never to deprive me of opportunities.
4:30
Speaker 3: It was always to, you know, do what they thought
4:33
Speaker 3: was best for me. And I think that what changed
4:37
Speaker 3: that day was, like I said, you know, initially, But
4:39
Speaker 3: rather than talking about the impairment and the barriers that
4:42
Speaker 3: come with that, Jill spoke directly to the impairment and said,
4:45
Speaker 3: you know, we still want you.
4:46
Speaker 2: That's not a problem. It's not a barrier.
4:49
Speaker 3: So it was my first experience of my impairment not
4:53
Speaker 3: being an obstacle and actually my impairment being my gateway
4:57
Speaker 3: into something. Um, so I went to the, I went
5:00
Speaker 3: to the youth games, you know, I, you know, I
5:01
Speaker 3: hadn't really had much experience swimming. Um, but I went along, um,
5:06
Speaker 3: Jill had spoken directly to me and I wanted to
5:08
Speaker 3: be a part of that. I wanted to be in
5:10
Speaker 3: an environment where I knew they wanted me. And I,
5:13
Speaker 3: I remember clear as anything, I jumped into that pool
5:16
Speaker 3: and I got to the other end. Um, and when
5:18
Speaker 3: I got out of the pool, um, Jill described me
5:20
Speaker 3: as a dying duck. Um, that was my technique. Um,
5:24
Speaker 3: But Jill said, Michael, you know, you may not have
5:27
Speaker 3: the best technique, but I see determination and I see
5:30
Speaker 3: a young man that wants to do well.
5:32
Speaker 2: And I'd love for you to join our club.
5:35
Speaker 3: And again, that speaking directly to me, I'd love you
5:39
Speaker 3: to join our club. I'd never been fortunate enough to
5:42
Speaker 3: be picked first in football or picked first in PE
5:45
Speaker 3: or be able to play for the school rugby team.
5:48
Speaker 3: So this was a real change for me and it
5:51
Speaker 3: really spoke to me and actually helped it gave me
5:53
Speaker 3: something to focus on. Um, that wasn't a barrier that
5:56
Speaker 3: wasn't an obstacle and that wasn't a limitation and very
6:00
Speaker 3: quickly through swimming. I mean, the first experience I had, um,
6:03
Speaker 3: of going to swimming, you know, I'd spent a school,
6:06
Speaker 3: a school, um, and I spent an experience in school
6:09
Speaker 3: where I was the child that was different. Um, and
6:13
Speaker 3: I was made to feel that way and I was
6:14
Speaker 3: treated that way. So my, my own concept of myself
6:18
Speaker 3: was disabled, was limited. Um, And I walked onto a poolside, Helen,
6:23
Speaker 3: and when I walked onto that poolside at Jules Deliver's
6:27
Speaker 3: Swimming Club at Desford, I was welcomed by athletes from
6:32
Speaker 3: such a variety of walks of life. All had different needs,
6:36
Speaker 3: all had different impairments, but one thing united them. They
6:40
Speaker 3: all got into that water and they all swam. They
6:42
Speaker 3: all enjoyed it and they all got that same satisfaction
6:45
Speaker 3: and reward. And it was, you know, it was an
6:48
Speaker 3: ego death for me because I, I'd only ever been
6:50
Speaker 3: taught that I can't do things, I couldn't do this.
6:53
Speaker 2: And actually, it was the first time.
6:55
Speaker 3: I'd seen people with much more complex needs than myself
6:58
Speaker 3: achieving so much more than I ever believed possible for myself.
7:02
Speaker 3: And that belief never came from what I taught myself.
7:05
Speaker 3: It was a consequence of all that wanting to keep
7:09
Speaker 3: me safe, all of those opportunities.
7:11
Speaker 2: That I missed.
7:13
Speaker 3: I didn't know it, but it was subconsciously having an
7:15
Speaker 3: effect on me. And I'd adopted an attitude which was
7:18
Speaker 3: very much I can't, I'm unable to, that's not safe.
7:23
Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, the, the.
7:24
Speaker 3: Pool, the, the, the relationship that I built with those
7:27
Speaker 3: athletes and the relationship that I built in the pool,
7:29
Speaker 3: the only way I can describe it is the pool
7:31
Speaker 3: was the first place where my impairment really didn't matter. Um,
7:36
Speaker 3: it wasn't, it was not even, you know, and it
7:38
Speaker 3: was never something that presented barriers or challenges.
7:40
Speaker 2: Um, and that really empowered me.
7:44
Speaker 3: Um, and it was one of the first spaces where
7:46
Speaker 3: I became successful.
7:47
Speaker 2: Um, I was wanted, I was valued.
7:50
Speaker 3: So my determination and my commitment to the sport grew.
7:53
Speaker 3: And not only did my commitment to the sport grow,
7:56
Speaker 3: but the identity that I started to understand about myself
8:00
Speaker 3: grew alongside that sport. And what I hadn't realised is
8:04
Speaker 3: very quickly I was becoming a role model to those
8:06
Speaker 3: younger people, those new swimmers that were coming in, those
8:09
Speaker 3: people that were still in primary education where their opportunities
8:13
Speaker 3: were being limited unintentionally. And I was able to give
8:17
Speaker 3: them support, give them advice and support their families alongside Jill,
8:21
Speaker 3: because the work that Jill has done, you know, is
8:23
Speaker 3: simply incredible. But I'd very quickly built, you know, success
8:28
Speaker 3: through sport. But I'd also built, you know, like I say,
8:31
Speaker 3: that ability to be able to go and speak to
8:33
Speaker 3: young people and feel like that I was able to.
8:36
Speaker 2: Have an impact.
8:38
Speaker 3: So that one interaction changed the trajectory of my life.
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Speaker 3: You know, school may have presented challenges and barriers to
8:46
Speaker 3: But the pool presented opportunity and belonging. So I don't
8:51
Speaker 3: know what direction I would have gone in had I
8:55
Speaker 3: not had that interaction.
8:57
Speaker 2: Fortunately, I did.
8:58
Speaker 3: And my career through sport was overwhelmingly successful. Sadly, in 2013,
9:05
Speaker 3: I was involved in quite a serious car accident. So
9:09
Speaker 3: I broke my neck, my arm, my leg, my ribs,
9:12
Speaker 3: had a bleed on the brain. And pretty much overnight,
9:17
Speaker 3: I'd had my entire career taken away from me. I
9:21
Speaker 3: was studying a degree in sport and exercise science taken
9:25
Speaker 3: away from me. All of the networks and support mechanisms
9:29
Speaker 3: I built within sport were gone. And I spent a
9:33
Speaker 3: long time wondering where my place now was. Sadly, the
9:38
Speaker 3: recovery from the accident was around nine months later. And
9:41
Speaker 3: for those nine months, I didn't swim. And sadly, the
9:44
Speaker 3: rest of the world didn't wait. They got faster. And
9:47
Speaker 3: the possibility of ever reaching that same attainment again was unlikely.
9:51
Speaker 3: So I was faced with a real um dilemma um
9:56
Speaker 3: everything I knew that you know the life plan that
9:58
Speaker 3: I'd built had all been taken away um and I
10:01
Speaker 3: didn't really know where I'd belonged I'd never really had
10:04
Speaker 3: to consider um a career outside sport the thought of
10:07
Speaker 3: returning to sport in a non-competitive way was a torment
10:12
Speaker 3: and that was a really really dark time in my
10:14
Speaker 3: life um I didn't know where I belonged I didn't
10:16
Speaker 3: know where I went next and ultimately I I didn't have.
10:19
Speaker 2: That light at the end of the tunnel.
10:22
Speaker 3: So life was difficult for a number of months and,
10:25
Speaker 3: you know, went into a number of years. And fortunately,
10:29
Speaker 3: Jill reappeared in my life and Jill came to visit me.
10:33
Speaker 3: She said, you know, Michael, we can spend our time
10:36
Speaker 3: now focusing on the fact that you can't swim anymore.
10:40
Speaker 3: Or we can spend our time focusing on the 10,000
10:43
Speaker 3: things that swimming has taught you and focus on doing
10:46
Speaker 3: those things really, really well. And that was that catalyst again.
10:50
Speaker 3: Jill had seen beyond my impairment. Jill hadn't seen work
10:52
Speaker 3: as a limitation. Jill had seen actually what swimming has
10:56
Speaker 3: given you, gives you value to bring to organisations. And
11:01
Speaker 3: that conversation, again, gave me the confidence to go and
11:04
Speaker 3: navigate employment. And initially, those employments were difficult. I worked
11:09
Speaker 3: for smaller organisations where I was, you know, the only
11:12
Speaker 3: employee that had a disability. I didn't know what support
11:15
Speaker 3: was available. The organisation didn't know what support was available.
11:20
Speaker 3: And those first couple of experiences of employment ended fairly quickly. Fortunately,
11:26
Speaker 3: I was given an opportunity within the NHS and I'm
11:30
Speaker 3: not naive that everyone has the same experience as me.
11:34
Speaker 3: But my experience in the NHS has been overwhelmingly positive
11:38
Speaker 3: from day one. It was made obvious to me that
11:41
Speaker 3: doors were open if I needed support.
11:43
Speaker 2: I didn't have to hide any element of my identity.
11:47
Speaker 3: And in fact, on one of the first days of induction,
11:51
Speaker 3: one of the practice education sisters said, one of the
11:54
Speaker 3: most important things for us at UHL is that every
11:57
Speaker 3: colleague can bring their authentic self to work. And again,
12:02
Speaker 3: being told that I can bring Michael to work, that
12:05
Speaker 3: I don't need to pretend that I can't see anything,
12:07
Speaker 3: that I don't need to pretend that that light isn't
12:11
Speaker 3: really bothering me. It was hugely powerful and it gave
12:15
Speaker 3: me the confidence to start that employment on the front foot.
12:21
Speaker 3: I was supported with reasonable adjustments from day one.
12:25
Speaker 2: My ward manager, Barry.
12:26
Speaker 3: Fogarty, was an absolute champion of inclusive leadership.
12:33
Speaker 2: From day one, made me feel at ease.
12:35
Speaker 3: From day one, made it abundantly obvious that his door
12:38
Speaker 3: was always open. And any challenge that I faced was
12:41
Speaker 3: a challenge that we'd navigate together. Again, absolute confidence to
12:45
Speaker 3: I belong here.
12:46
Speaker 2: I should be here.
12:48
Speaker 3: And through that experience, I've been fortunate enough to grow into,
12:53
Speaker 3: you know, unique roles. I was the first non-registrant at
12:56
Speaker 3: UHL to be invited onto the Chief Nurse Fellowship Programme,
13:01
Speaker 3: where I was given the opportunity to specifically focus on
13:04
Speaker 3: inclusion and how the trust supports that agenda for both
13:07
Speaker 3: patients and colleagues. And I was awarded the Chief Nursing
13:12
Speaker 3: Officer of England Award for.
13:14
Speaker 2: Some of that work.
13:16
Speaker 3: And I suppose where I'm trying to get to is
13:18
Speaker 3: when we believe in people and when we give them
13:21
Speaker 3: ideas and perspectives that they've never seen possible for themselves,
13:25
Speaker 3: you can be that catalyst. And, you know, I draw
13:29
Speaker 3: my success right back to that day in assembly at
13:32
Speaker 3: Abington High School when Jill Stidiver and Admiral Lennox stood
13:36
Speaker 3: upon that stage and spoke directly to me. And now,
13:39
Speaker 3: I'm running a successful reasonable adjustment clinic at one of
13:42
Speaker 3: the most complex healthcare organisations in the United Kingdom, supporting
13:47
Speaker 3: colleagues every month to receive reasonable adjustments, which will allow
13:52
Speaker 3: them to feel the same way.
13:54
Speaker 2: That I did when I joined UHL.
13:56
Speaker 3: So never underestimate the power of personal impact.
14:01
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much, Michael. And I
14:04
Speaker 1: loved it. You finished on that sentence, you know, the
14:07
Speaker 1: power of personal impact, because, I mean, that's what we've
14:10
Speaker 1: called the whole episode today, because it's, yeah, just one interaction,
14:13
Speaker 1: one comment, one action, one kind word can really make
14:18
Speaker 1: a difference, can't it? And I know that I shared
14:20
Speaker 1: with you the story of my son. I know that
14:24
Speaker 1: some of the listeners are familiar with my son, Daniel.
14:27
Speaker 1: He was born with a very rare learning disability. He
14:33
Speaker 1: has complex needs. And I remember... being in Guy's hospital
14:37
Speaker 1: when he was nine months old, you know, being told
14:39
Speaker 1: that he's never going to walk, he's never going to talk,
14:41
Speaker 1: he's never going to achieve anything. And I just remember
14:44
Speaker 1: coming out and going, over my dead body, is that
14:46
Speaker 1: going to happen? You know, and then from just from
14:49
Speaker 1: that moment, you know, that was where, you know, I
14:51
Speaker 1: just was advocating for him all the time. And, you know,
14:54
Speaker 1: and just needs for a lot of people, they just
14:57
Speaker 1: need one person just to see something in them to
15:02
Speaker 1: sort of, yeah. This is where I cry. The listeners
15:06
Speaker 1: are always used to this. But yeah, you know, that
15:09
Speaker 1: personal impact is powerful.
15:12
Speaker 2: It really is.
15:13
Speaker 3: You know, the example that you share is really, really
15:15
Speaker 3: powerful because, you know, for many reasons, we're told, you know,
15:20
Speaker 3: that we trust what we're told by professionals, so doctors,
15:25
Speaker 3: you know, teachers, educators. And when that messaging isn't right,
15:29
Speaker 3: the impact that that can have if someone doesn't have
15:31
Speaker 3: that advocate or that one person that wants to fight
15:34
Speaker 3: their corner. And it's not about, you know, any individual
15:37
Speaker 3: not wanting to or not feeling like it's their role.
15:40
Speaker 3: Sometimes people simply don't understand that there are, you know,
15:45
Speaker 3: these things are.
15:45
Speaker 2: Not always to be true.
15:47
Speaker 3: You know, you were told, you know, your son was
15:50
Speaker 3: never going to do X, Y and B. And through
15:53
Speaker 3: your advocacy, your determination and you, you know, you, you
15:59
Speaker 3: sharing that with your.
16:00
Speaker 2: Son through your love and through.
16:02
Speaker 3: Your determination, we've moved beyond any expectation that was initially
16:08
Speaker 3: set out. And it's the power of that, that, you know,
16:13
Speaker 3: it could have been the other way. It could have been, okay, well,
16:15
Speaker 3: that's what, you know, that's what the professionals have told me.
16:19
Speaker 2: That is the reality. And that's a terrifying prospect.
16:22
Speaker 3: And that's why I always say, you know, it's not about,
16:26
Speaker 3: anyone having any specific role, you know, it's not about
16:29
Speaker 3: being a mum to this person or a sister to
16:31
Speaker 3: this person or a brother, just being a colleague, a friend,
16:35
Speaker 3: an active bystander, you have the potential to really change
16:38
Speaker 3: the trajectory of that person's hour, day, or even life.
16:43
Speaker 3: Because I don't suppose the day that Jill and Avril
16:45
Speaker 3: stood upon that stage in Abington High School, that they
16:50
Speaker 3: would ever change the trajectory of my life like they did.
16:53
Speaker 3: And I suppose the day you walked out that hospital
16:55
Speaker 3: and had all those, you know, absolutely not, that's not
16:59
Speaker 3: going to happen.
17:00
Speaker 2: You know, you still had that, you know, you still
17:02
Speaker 2: didn't know.
17:03
Speaker 3: Actually how much power that attitude was going to bring
17:06
Speaker 3: in terms of the destination you were heading. Um, and that's,
17:10
Speaker 3: that's the key thing. Like it's in those, those interaction moments.
17:14
Speaker 3: We don't know the value that they will have for someone,
17:18
Speaker 3: no matter how insurmountable it may seem to us. Um,
17:23
Speaker 3: And I'm sure we'll naturally move on to this, but
17:25
Speaker 3: that's also like the flip side of that coin. You know,
17:28
Speaker 3: for every power of personal impact we can have, there's
17:32
Speaker 3: that negative element. You know, one person has the potential to,
17:36
Speaker 3: you know, change the trajectory of someone's beliefs, understanding, self-worth, identity.
17:42
Speaker 2: And the example I use of this is, you know, a.
17:46
Speaker 3: Colleague or an employee that has additional needs, disability, long-term
17:50
Speaker 3: health condition, can go into an environment and be supported
17:54
Speaker 3: by a manager like Barry Fogarty, who makes it abundantly
17:57
Speaker 3: clear from day one that the support is there. I
18:01
Speaker 3: am here to help you remove barriers. This isn't too
18:04
Speaker 3: much issue. And in that circumstance, an employee is likely
18:09
Speaker 3: to thrive. An individual is likely to go above and
18:12
Speaker 3: beyond because that support is so positive. Or you can
18:18
Speaker 3: have a manager who, that sees things very rigid.
18:21
Speaker 2: No, we've not done things that way. We're not going
18:22
Speaker 2: to change it.
18:24
Speaker 3: You need to adapt to our systems. Nothing about that
18:28
Speaker 3: individual's impairment has changed, but their experience of work has
18:33
Speaker 3: significantly changed. And the only thing that's changed is one
18:36
Speaker 3: relationship that exists within that environment, and that's the relationship
18:40
Speaker 3: between the manager. So for every Barry Fogarty and Jill
18:45
Speaker 3: Stidivar moment that we can have, there is those moments
18:48
Speaker 3: where a colleague may be left feeling, you know, in complete,
18:52
Speaker 3: you know, shock or disarray. And I'm someone that has
18:56
Speaker 3: ADHD alongside albinism and a sight impairment. And one of
19:01
Speaker 3: the things that comes alongside that ADHD is something called
19:03
Speaker 3: rejection sensitive dysphoria. And I suppose the best way to
19:07
Speaker 3: really describe what RSD is, is when I have a
19:11
Speaker 3: positive interaction with people, it's almost a euphoric interaction. That's
19:16
Speaker 3: that dopamine, that's that, you know, what my brain's been craving.
19:22
Speaker 3: When I have a neutral interaction with someone, that is
19:25
Speaker 3: a negative interaction. My brain interprets that interaction as they
19:30
Speaker 3: might not like me, you know, it will re-analyse every
19:33
Speaker 3: word of the conversation, overthink. And then if I have
19:36
Speaker 3: a negative interaction with someone, that can be debilitating. That
19:40
Speaker 3: can be really, you know, quite a profound impact in
19:44
Speaker 3: terms of you start to pick yourself apart and you
19:48
Speaker 3: start to examine... every element of everything you've done that
19:52
Speaker 3: day every interaction, every tone every perceived microaggression and I
20:01
Speaker 3: know the intent is never that but sometimes the impact
20:05
Speaker 3: that we have in an interaction is so powerful and
20:08
Speaker 3: so profound either way that we should all strive 100%
20:11
Speaker 3: of the time to ensure that our interactions are overwhelmingly
20:15
Speaker 3: positive and are overwhelmingly supportive.
20:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, completely agree. I can imagine that many of the
20:23
Speaker 1: listeners today are probably thinking, as you were talking about
20:26
Speaker 1: the positive impact, they were probably thinking of somebody in
20:29
Speaker 1: their life or throughout their life that has probably just
20:32
Speaker 1: said that passing kind comment or done something that's uplifted
20:36
Speaker 1: them and potentially changed the trajectory of their life. But then,
20:40
Speaker 1: of course, when you're talking about that, potentially that negative
20:43
Speaker 1: comment or that sort of, like you say, it might
20:47
Speaker 1: not have been with a negative intent, but the delivery
20:52
Speaker 1: of it or the timing of it or even just
20:54
Speaker 1: the structure of what they have done or said has
20:58
Speaker 1: then potentially had that negative impact. They're really lasting as well.
21:02
Speaker 1: And I know that I speak to many adults who
21:05
Speaker 1: were potentially bullied at primary school and secondary school in
21:09
Speaker 1: you know, they're in their 40s and 50s and they
21:12
Speaker 1: can still remember every element of that. It's lasting, you know,
21:16
Speaker 1: it really is. It's impactful.
21:21
Speaker 3: A hundred percent. And it's, you know, it's exactly the same.
21:24
Speaker 3: Like you say, I can remember those very dark days
21:27
Speaker 3: at school. But I remember that day Jill and Avril
21:30
Speaker 3: stood up. It's those moments, it's those interactions that, like
21:33
Speaker 3: you say, become ingrained on us.
21:36
Speaker 2: And to somewhat, you know, I feel.
21:39
Speaker 3: You know, my experience was what it was, but actually
21:41
Speaker 3: having that experience has made me so much wiser in
21:45
Speaker 3: knowledge in terms of what I want to achieve from
21:47
Speaker 3: my life. And that's to ensure that everyone has equitable
21:50
Speaker 3: access to education. Everyone has equitable access to work. Everyone
21:55
Speaker 3: has equitable access to services. And I think that if
21:58
Speaker 3: I hadn't have had that experience and I hadn't have
22:01
Speaker 3: faced the barriers myself, and I hadn't have been empowered
22:04
Speaker 3: by Jill, and I hadn't have had the opportunities through sport,
22:07
Speaker 3: and I hadn't have had the accident, then my perspective
22:11
Speaker 3: on how we create equitable solutions would.
22:14
Speaker 2: Be somewhat different.
22:16
Speaker 3: So as much as it haunts me is the wrong word,
22:20
Speaker 3: but as much as my past definitely makes me shiver
22:24
Speaker 3: on occasions in terms of some of the experiences that
22:26
Speaker 3: I've had to endure, it also gives me confidence that I...
22:31
Speaker 3: I have value to bring and that I am able
22:35
Speaker 3: to empathise with some of the experiences you are facing.
22:39
Speaker 1: Absolutely and one of the quotes that I kind of
22:43
Speaker 1: live by I guess is probably a good term for
22:47
Speaker 1: it is it's from Steve Jobs where he talks about
22:51
Speaker 1: you can't connect the dots looking forward you can only
22:54
Speaker 1: connect them looking back and I kind of often come
22:57
Speaker 1: back to that and I think You know, I had
22:59
Speaker 1: to go through all of these difficult situations and really
23:01
Speaker 1: challenging times throughout my life to get me here to
23:06
Speaker 1: be doing the work that I'm doing. So I think
23:09
Speaker 1: you probably just alluded to that as well, that actually
23:11
Speaker 1: you had to go through all of that to be
23:13
Speaker 1: in the place at the time now where you are
23:16
Speaker 1: really making a difference.
23:18
Speaker 2: Exactly that.
23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know that when we did catch up to
23:24
Speaker 1: sort of talk about this episode, And you were talking
23:27
Speaker 1: about mosquitoes. And I found that incredibly interesting with regards
23:31
Speaker 1: sort of that analogy of the mosquito bite. And I
23:36
Speaker 1: think actually the listeners will gain a lot from that today.
23:39
Speaker 1: So are you happy to sort of share that with that?
23:43
Speaker 1: Because it's so important.
23:46
Speaker 3: So this is kind of my way of explaining, you know,
23:50
Speaker 3: that not everybody arrives to work at the same point. And,
23:54
Speaker 3: you know, it's a little bit like imagining a glass.
23:57
Speaker 3: We all assume that, you know, let's say every little
24:00
Speaker 3: bit of stress or every barrier or every negative interaction
24:03
Speaker 3: we encounter, a little bit more water is added to
24:06
Speaker 3: our glass. There's a common misconception that everybody gets to
24:10
Speaker 3: work and their glasses are empty.
24:13
Speaker 2: And for some people, that's not the case.
24:15
Speaker 3: So for one person, they may get up, they may
24:17
Speaker 3: not face barriers. They may find getting into work relatively easy.
24:22
Speaker 3: They get to work and their glass has no water
24:24
Speaker 3: in it. Somebody else may wake up who has children
24:27
Speaker 3: with additional needs, managing their own health conditions and supporting
24:31
Speaker 3: a loved one that has a different health condition. So
24:35
Speaker 3: by the time that person gets to work, they may
24:38
Speaker 3: have faced stresses around supporting people at home, They may
24:43
Speaker 3: have faced barriers leaving the house and getting into work.
24:47
Speaker 3: They may have faced access issues, you know, even just
24:49
Speaker 3: getting to work. So by the time some people get
24:52
Speaker 3: to work, actually their glass is three quarters full. And
24:58
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is this is where we
24:59
Speaker 3: bring in the mosquito kind of analogy is if you
25:02
Speaker 3: imagine that, you know, we go into work on a
25:06
Speaker 3: Tuesday morning and we're having a little bit of a
25:08
Speaker 3: laugh and joke and we say a comment to one
25:10
Speaker 3: colleague and all of a sudden, that colleague really bites
25:13
Speaker 3: back or gets particularly frustrated with us. And the comment was,
25:17
Speaker 3: you know, it was lighthearted. It wasn't intended to kind
25:20
Speaker 3: of cause harm. Well, imagine you're on holiday. When we
25:24
Speaker 3: go on holiday, you know, one mosquito bite, it's irritating.
25:29
Speaker 2: But we kind of brush it off and we carry on.
25:31
Speaker 3: And two mosquito bites, you know, an hour later is irritating.
25:36
Speaker 3: But for some people, you know, they go on holiday
25:38
Speaker 3: and from the minute they get off the plane to
25:40
Speaker 3: the minute they get on the plane, They are constantly
25:42
Speaker 3: being bitten by mosquitoes. And that is what some people's
25:47
Speaker 3: experience of coming to work is like. By the time
25:50
Speaker 3: they get through the door, their glasses three quarters full
25:53
Speaker 3: because they face numerous barriers and challenges just getting into work.
25:56
Speaker 3: And they faced lots and lots of different mosquito bites
26:00
Speaker 3: by unwittingly, unknowingly, insensitive comments about them, their impairment, their appearance.
26:08
Speaker 3: And by the time your lighthearted comment reaches them, that
26:11
Speaker 3: isn't their first mosquito bite of the day.
26:14
Speaker 2: That's their thousandth.
26:15
Speaker 3: And that's why on that thousandth bite, you've caught the
26:18
Speaker 3: short end of it. And I think it's really important
26:20
Speaker 3: to capture that both those elements that not everybody gets
26:23
Speaker 3: to work with an empty glass. Some people have faced
26:26
Speaker 3: significant challenges and barriers before even getting through the door.
26:31
Speaker 3: And some people will get stung by a mosquito every
26:35
Speaker 3: once in a while. And some people will get stung
26:37
Speaker 3: every second of every day. And you can imagine those
26:41
Speaker 3: two experiences when they come together can be quite disorientating,
26:46
Speaker 3: disempowering and leave you feeling like you don't belong.
26:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, powerful, powerful analogies there, Michael. Thank you. Thank you
26:55
Speaker 1: for sharing them. And it was interesting as well that
26:57
Speaker 1: you then shared that actually, yeah, you might then be
27:00
Speaker 1: on the receiving end of actually that person's frustration, anger,
27:07
Speaker 1: all of that. So we can often misinterpret that behaviour
27:11
Speaker 1: as aggressive, confrontational, you know, and I'm thinking this with
27:16
Speaker 1: my customer service hat on, that actually, you know, customer
27:19
Speaker 1: service agents might be sort of presented with a, you know,
27:22
Speaker 1: a customer who's incredibly angry and frustrated or distressed and
27:27
Speaker 1: they perceive that behaviour as, you know, very confrontational. It's very,
27:31
Speaker 1: you know, aggressive. They don't need to be like that.
27:32
Speaker 1: I'm just going to terminate the call.
27:36
Speaker 3: And then that adds to that frustration because, you know,
27:39
Speaker 3: let's use that customer service experience as an example. You know,
27:43
Speaker 3: simply asking someone to explain what barriers they face may
27:47
Speaker 3: seem perfectly harmless to us as, you know, the customer
27:50
Speaker 3: service advisor. But actually, what we don't realise is that
27:54
Speaker 3: person has already had to explain to six other organisations
27:58
Speaker 3: in that one day what barriers they're facing and then
28:01
Speaker 3: re-explain because they've needed to be put through to the
28:03
Speaker 3: right department and then being cut off in the process
28:07
Speaker 3: and then being told that they're not going to continue
28:10
Speaker 3: this call because their tone seems aggressive. So by the time,
28:14
Speaker 3: you know, we get onto the phone and we ask
28:15
Speaker 3: that question again, it's that explosion. And like you say,
28:18
Speaker 3: sometimes that can be perceived as confrontational. But actually, when
28:23
Speaker 3: we look a little bit deeper and we ask a
28:25
Speaker 3: few more deeper questions in terms of, well, what could
28:28
Speaker 3: have happened in that person's day, which has generated that response,
28:32
Speaker 3: because it's very rarely a single issue that's resulted in
28:37
Speaker 3: that kind of interaction.
28:39
Speaker 1: Completely agree. And that's where that power of that personal
28:42
Speaker 1: impact is, you know, your next response as that person
28:46
Speaker 1: on the end of the phone to that individual, you know, if,
28:50
Speaker 1: if you then go down the route of a, you know, kind, compassionate,
28:53
Speaker 1: empathetic response and an approach and, you know, you'll have
28:58
Speaker 1: that positive impact. And then, of course, obviously, then if
29:01
Speaker 1: you go, nope, that's it, you know, you're out of
29:06
Speaker 1: warnings now, I'm going to terminate the call, you know,
29:10
Speaker 1: call back when you're calm, ultimately, you know, you can
29:15
Speaker 1: really see those two approaches and how they land.
29:21
Speaker 3: And, you know, let's say we go with the second
29:24
Speaker 3: and the cordles get terminated.
29:26
Speaker 2: It results in a pretty negative ending.
29:29
Speaker 3: The impact then on that individual is that bill may
29:32
Speaker 3: not get paid now. They may then get a negative
29:36
Speaker 3: marker on their credit file.
29:38
Speaker 2: They may not. then fall onto financial.
29:41
Speaker 3: Hard times and all because one interaction has left them
29:45
Speaker 3: feeling completely disenfranchised with a service which is supposed to
29:50
Speaker 3: support them. And I think sometimes there's so much power
29:54
Speaker 3: in just acknowledging that people face challenges, you know, If
29:57
Speaker 3: you are, you know, and it's never nice to be
30:00
Speaker 3: on the receiving end, but if you are on that
30:02
Speaker 3: receiving end, simply acknowledging, sorry, madam, sorry, sir, I know
30:07
Speaker 3: today may be particularly challenging. I know this phone call
30:10
Speaker 3: may not have been easier and I know that this
30:13
Speaker 3: may have been a frustrating experience up till now, but
30:16
Speaker 3: I want to support you.
30:17
Speaker 2: I want to get this resolved for you.
30:20
Speaker 3: That brings power because that client or customer now feels like,
30:27
Speaker 3: this person is hearing me, this person isn't trying to
30:31
Speaker 3: penalise me or terminate my call.
30:35
Speaker 2: And that brings value.
30:36
Speaker 3: And that's how, you know, those collaborative, you know, interactions build,
30:40
Speaker 3: because then with that customer's consent, we can leave a
30:43
Speaker 3: note on the file that says, next time we call
30:46
Speaker 3: this customer, can we do X, Y and B, which
30:49
Speaker 3: will alleviate some of the barriers which created the negative
30:54
Speaker 3: outburst initially. So it's building those positive relationships will then
30:58
Speaker 3: have a huge impact on the individual, but actually a
31:03
Speaker 3: huge impact on those customer service advisors, because nobody likes
31:07
Speaker 3: to be shouted at. Everybody likes to come away from
31:09
Speaker 3: a customer service phone call, like they've supported and helped
31:13
Speaker 3: their customer.
31:14
Speaker 2: So. Yeah.
31:16
Speaker 1: And the benefit to the organization as well is actually, yeah,
31:19
Speaker 1: you've got a customer that is going to pay the bill.
31:21
Speaker 1: They're going to start the sort of the repayment plan
31:23
Speaker 1: or whatever, but, And they're going to then advocate and
31:26
Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, say, you know, this is
31:28
Speaker 1: a great company to engage with.
31:30
Speaker 3: And when your company gets that right, then you get
31:32
Speaker 3: to unlock the purple pound and the purple pound runs
31:34
Speaker 3: into how many billions now. So, you know, if you
31:38
Speaker 3: start to create positive experiences for customers with vulnerabilities, disabilities
31:42
Speaker 3: or long-term health conditions, then you are going to become
31:46
Speaker 3: the beacon for those people where they know that their
31:49
Speaker 3: support is tailored to them and actually... They've got an
31:52
Speaker 3: organisation that is understanding and empathetic to their needs.
31:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, completely agree. Oh, it's always powerful when I have
32:01
Speaker 1: these conversations with you, Michael. I just come away sort
32:03
Speaker 1: of just feeling really sort of uplifted and eager to
32:07
Speaker 1: go out and sort of keep doing what I'm doing
32:10
Speaker 1: and sort of keep trying to make that impact. So
32:13
Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of people listening today
32:15
Speaker 1: just sort of thinking, yes, I'm raring to go and
32:18
Speaker 1: I want to make a difference and I want to
32:19
Speaker 1: be that person. person who does that personal impact what
32:23
Speaker 1: would you what would you say to the people today
32:26
Speaker 1: listening you know how can they go out there and
32:28
Speaker 1: be that person of personal impact that.
32:30
Speaker 3: Power yeah so I think I think the luxury that
32:35
Speaker 3: we've all got is we all have absolutely the potential
32:38
Speaker 3: um to have that impact on somebody um with every
32:41
Speaker 3: interaction we have um and the even greater luxury to
32:44
Speaker 3: that is There is no special course or degree that
32:47
Speaker 3: is needed for that initial power and that initial impact.
32:50
Speaker 2: I think the key thing I can ask.
32:54
Speaker 3: All of your listeners today is to see beyond someone's impairment,
32:59
Speaker 3: see beyond an assumption that you may not have created
33:03
Speaker 3: yourself but has been imparted on you. Look beyond any
33:07
Speaker 3: of that and look to that individual. And if you can,
33:11
Speaker 3: be the first person that tells them they can. because
33:13
Speaker 3: I can almost guarantee you people that have had vulnerabilities
33:16
Speaker 3: and disabilities and long-term health conditions, they're too often and
33:20
Speaker 3: too used to hearing, you can't, you can't, you can't.
33:24
Speaker 3: You being the person to tell them they can is
33:27
Speaker 3: going to have so much power. And being that colleague,
33:31
Speaker 3: being that customer service advisor, being that friend, being that
33:36
Speaker 3: family member that is approachable, that is understanding is, is, is,
33:42
Speaker 3: Simply one of the biggest messages I can ask all
33:45
Speaker 3: of your listeners today to do.
33:46
Speaker 2: Be kind and be willing to learn and be inclusive.
33:52
Speaker 1: Love that. Absolutely love that. Powerful, powerful words to end
33:56
Speaker 1: the episode on. So my last thought was going to say,
34:00
Speaker 1: are there any final thoughts that you want to share?
34:02
Speaker 1: But I don't know whether that's summed up everything you
34:04
Speaker 1: want to share or is there anything, any other pearls
34:07
Speaker 1: of wisdom that you do want to share with the
34:09
Speaker 1: listeners today?
34:10
Speaker 3: So for that personal impact, be kind, be willing to learn,
34:16
Speaker 3: be inclusive.
34:18
Speaker 2: For an organisation, I'll simply leave you with this message.
34:21
Speaker 3: If you're looking at your disability data and wondering why
34:24
Speaker 3: people aren't disclosing, or if you're looking at your disability
34:27
Speaker 3: data and wondering why so many customers with disabilities are
34:29
Speaker 3: making complaints, I will simply leave you with one message.
34:34
Speaker 3: If you always do what you've always done, you'll always
34:36
Speaker 3: get what you've always got. Something must change. for those
34:40
Speaker 3: experiences to change. And that is the power that you
34:44
Speaker 3: have as an organisation.
34:45
Speaker 2: Fabulous.
34:47
Speaker 1: Absolutely fabulous. And that will be impactful for colleagues and
34:51
Speaker 1: customers and ultimately society at large. That's what we want
34:55
Speaker 1: to improve the lives of everyone in society, don't we?
34:58
Speaker 1: Especially those, yeah, who are disabled. Yeah.
35:02
Speaker 2: Amazing.
35:03
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Michael. I knew that we were
35:05
Speaker 1: going to have a fantastic discussion today. So Thank you
35:08
Speaker 1: so much for joining me. It's been absolutely powerful. So
35:12
Speaker 1: thank you.
35:13
Speaker 3: No, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for sharing
35:16
Speaker 3: some of your own experiences about your son. And like
35:19
Speaker 3: I say, thanks for having me on. And thank you
35:22
Speaker 3: for all the fantastic work that you're doing. It's been
35:25
Speaker 3: a privilege, you know, to continue our relationship since meeting
35:28
Speaker 3: last year.
35:28
Speaker 2: And, you know, I admire the work you're doing. So
35:31
Speaker 2: thank you.
35:32
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining
35:35
Speaker 1: us for this episode of Unlocking Vulnerability. If today's conversation
35:39
Speaker 1: has resonated with you, please feel free to share it
35:42
Speaker 1: with others who may find it useful. You'll find more
35:45
Speaker 1: episodes like this by searching Unlocking Vulnerability wherever you listen
35:49
Speaker 1: to podcasts. If this episode has left you with questions
35:53
Speaker 1: about any aspect of consumer vulnerability, I regularly host free
35:57
Speaker 1: Q & A sessions on Zoom where you're welcome to
36:00
Speaker 1: join the conversation. You can find out more at HelenPettiford.com.
36:05
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening and please take care.