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Climate Change: We Have the Solutions. So What's Stopping Us? · Atmosphere with Emily Gracey

• Emily Gracey: We don't need miracles. We don't need to break the laws of physics. We don't need to invent new gadgets that don't exist today. We've kind of got it if we want to. Climate change can feel like one of those problems that is simply too big, too global, too political, too far gone for any one of us to actually make a difference. Jonathan Foley has very little patience for that. So I really get kind of irritated when people think like, my actions don't matter. I'm like, Yes, they do. And enormously, and they sure matter when you give up without even trying. That's the worst thing you can do. You just hand it a big And if you're waiting for the hopeful part of this conversation, well, his version of hope might be a little different than what you're expecting. Those intention, I often think the best place to be is somewhere between despair and hope. Hope is a verb. It isn't a noun. It isn't just a thing you go get on a shelf. You have to do it. Because fully isn't promising that everything's gonna be okay. I am not optimistic, but I am hopeful. He's saying that a better world is still possible, but somebody has to actually build it. Knowing full well you may fail. Today on Atmosphere Climate Scientist Dr. Jonathan Foley will tell us why we already have many of the tools we need to tackle climate change. Why he thinks doomerism may be just as dangerous as denial. And why our generation has a responsibility to get off the sidelines and leave something better behind. You know what? At the end of the day, the world doesn't give a damn how we feel, it matters what we do. I'm Meteorologist Emily Gracie, and this is Atmosphere, a podcast where science becomes conversation. Each week I sit down with the experts behind the forecasts, the research, and the headlines to explore not just the science, but the human stories behind it. Through natural curiosity, we're making science more understandable, more relatable, and hopefully bringing a little more comfort in how we experience the world around us. Dr. Jonathan Foley is the executive director of Project Drawdown, an organization that focuses on not just explaining the problem of climate change, but identifying the solutions we already have and figuring out how to put them to work. And Jonathan's background is pretty remarkable. He actually started out in atmospheric science. He has a PhD in the field, although, as he was quick to tell me, don't ask him for a forecast. He went on to become one of the world's most highly cited environmental scientists, publishing more than 130 peer reviewed papers on climate change, ecosystems, food systems, and sustainability. He spent decades in academia, leading major environmental research programs at the University of Wisconsin and the University of Minnesota, and later served as executive director of the California Academy of Sciences. Today, he leads Project Drawdown. The organization grew out of the best selling book, Drawdown, which brought together roughly a hundred technologies and practices that could help address climate change. Jonathan joined after the book was published and helped turn the project into what he calls a think and do tank, focused on finding the most effective climate solutions and getting that information into the hands of people who can actually use it. And because the science and technology around climate solutions are cool. Constantly changing, Project Drawdown has moved well beyond the book. There's now the Drawdown Explorer, a free online tool that tracks climate solutions and brings the data down from the global level to what's happening in individual countries, states, and even cities. And this fall, they're launching Drawdown Learn, a series of free short educational videos designed for everyone from high school students to people who are already working in climate. basically a crash course in climate change and climate solutions without having to go back to grad school. Which brings us to something Jonathan is particularly good at. Taking really complicated science and making it understandable. He's spoken at TED and hundreds of venues around the world, written for publications including National Geographic, The New York Times, and Scientific American, and has even won an award specifically for climate science communication. And that's where our conversation begins. How to talk about science in a way that people actually want to hear. You have a very academic background. So at what point along the way did you realize that you were a good communicator, that people outside of the field were understanding what you were saying and that it was engaging? Well, I don't know. I'm still working on it. But I grew up really admiring like Carl Sagan and you know, Jacques Cousteau and later, you know, people like Jane Goodall and others, people who are really adept at kind of bringing science to life. And they didn't have to water down the science, they could just explain it well. And that's what got me Really hooked as a little kid. I always knew I wanted to be a scientist. And I think it's in part thanks to folks like that. And I don't know what happens to us when we start going to college and grad school to be a scientist. We kind of lose that inner eight-year-old. I try really hard not to lose that person and who, you know, got me interested in this stuff in the first place. And I used to tell my students that too, like, do not, do not, do not let people like me as professors beat that, you know, inner inner eight-year-old out of your heart and out of your mind. Like, you know, don't Get cold to science. Don't forget it's wonder, the fact that even as a child, you know, people are fascinated by this stuff and you understand it pretty well. So figure out a way to talk about that with other people too and just, you know, pass it along. Also, it helps, I think, for me is that I worked in a whole bunch of different fields. While my core training was in atmospheric science, I was working with like ecologists who studied forest and people who studied the oceans and people who studied lots of weird things on planet earth. And I tried to figure out how to learn some of their science too. And so, you know, and I'm pretty dumb, you know. So I have to like think through it really carefully myself. I'm like, you know, hmm, you know, that sounds really complicated. Can I simplify it down to something really, really, really simple so I can understand it from a different field of science? And if I could do that to for myself, then maybe it'll help me explain to other folks too. But it's basically because, you know, There's so much to learn and I'm pretty dumb. I just have to figure it out for myself first. So I'll just share with other people afterward. And maybe that helps. That's so funny that you say that because I have noticed this trend of really good science communicators being a little self deprecating. So maybe that's part of the puzzle of being a good communicator. You know, you never want to be the smartest person in the room. I want to be the dumbest person in the room. So I can learn from everybody else. And that's kind of fun and absorbing different bits and pieces from other fields. But often what slows that down is being clear. Like, I don't know how many times I've tried to understand a different field. listening to somebody give an academic talk. And I'm like, I don't know what the hell you just said. Can I buy you a beer though and talk about it? And then usually at you know, with a beer or over lunch or whatever, I'm like, talk to me like I'm your idiot cousin or something that, you know, or whatever. Or I'm I'm somebody at Thanksgiving who isn't in your field. Just tell me in plain English what you do, please. And okay. And they just say it. I'm like, please write like that. What you just said was perfect. You know, pretend you're talking to your mom. Now explain it. and anyway, so I think there's a lot of good examples like that, but I think we have to kind of get out of the mindset of let's make it more complicated and use buzzwords. And often that just obscures what's happening. It doesn't illuminate it. Mm-hmm. Fully agree. okay. Well, while I have such a well-rounded, smart slash dumb person to quiz right now. I'm gonna can I ask you some questions for our audience? Cause I also my audience is a little bit of everything. We have a lot of meteorologists that listen, climate scientists, but also just a lot of like people who are interested in science and just curious people. And I'm just gonna ask questions that I want to know because I think they want to know the same thing. One of those being like where we stand right now, because as we talked about, this is such a a fluid field constantly changing. Where are we at right now when it comes to like Biggest hurdles, biggest problems. You know, if you if we all listen just to like the news outlets and to climate activists and to politicians, it's very skewed to only hearing bad news because bad news happens to be super viral in our communication channels right now. Bad news spreads like wildfire on cable and on the internet, period, and social media, AI too. So first thing I think we have to remember is everything we're hearing about climate change is heavily it's not that it's not true, but it's very selectively biased towards, you know, the worst news is the stuff you hear the most. It just gets a bigger megaphone in our media right now. But there is some really good news on the other side of the street that doesn't get a lot of attention. And now I think they're both kind of intention. remember Charles Dickens said this too. It's the best of times. It was the worst of times. And history's always like that. There's always some combination of things going to hell and things getting better. And here we are again at that moment of history with climate change. Some things are getting worse. The planet is definitely getting warmer every year on average. And that impact is starting to show up in pretty scary ways. I don't think I need to stress that too much, but with the fires and extreme events we're seeing and the steady rise of global temperatures. We have been expecting this for decades. None of it is a surprise, but it's kind of wild to see it play out in the real world, not just on a computer screen now. So that's the bad news. The good news is we have all the solutions we need to stop climate change here today. more are coming, more are getting cheaper, more are getting better. But we already have pretty much what we need to stop climate change. We just have to scale it. We don't need miracles. We don't need to Break the laws of physics. We don't need to invent new gadgets that don't exist today. We've kind of got it, if we want to. So right now we have a choice. Now, some things are proceeding really rapidly, like solar, wind, battery storage, those are all growing faster than anybody ever predicted. And they keep beating the forecast like every year. Even if we raise the ambition level in the forecast and look really optimistically. Those technologies still seem to beat even the most optimistic forecast year upon year. So that's kind of amazing. We're seeing, you know, faster, cheaper, better technology curves in renewable energy and energy storage, heat pumps, and outside the United States, anyway, even electric vehicles. So those things are doing really pretty well. Other sectors, not so much. we're not doing enough in industry. We're not doing enough in agriculture and land use. Those are areas where we're still sliding backward. And it's also very unevenly spread out around the world. Some countries are already lowering their emissions, including this one. A lot of people don't realize that, but the United States actually peaked its greenhouse gas pollution levels back in 2007, so almost 20 years ago. And they've been going down pretty steadily ever since through the Obama administration, through the first Trump administration, the Biden administration, and so far. looks like through the second Trump administration. Despite what you hear on the news, you can't see the atmosphere doesn't know who's president. It just keeps going down. Because markets and technology are way more important than policy right now in terms of changing how we use energy. So we're not burning as much coal. Even if Trump wants to bring it back, we're not going to burn more coal. It's too expensive. We're not going to do that. So that's not going to really happen. We switched through natural gas and now increasingly to renewables. And so the electricity sector in the US is plummeting emissions right now, which is really good. That could change with things like AI, with heat pumps, with more electric vehicles. Demand for electricity could go back up again, probably will. But overall, the US is lowering its emissions. So is Europe, so is Japan and other countries. So we have about 40 countries that are cutting their emissions. China's peaked their emissions. They've hit probably the peak that they'll ever have. And they're starting maybe to go down too. And they're the biggest economy in the world in terms of emissions right now. So there are some positive trends, but they're not big enough yet. They're not evenly spread across the world. And so there's an old expression, you know, the future arrives unevenly around the world. You know, if the future is already here, it's just even unevenly distributed. I think it's the expression. And I think that's what we're seeing in climate change, some glimmering signals of good things happening, but we need to double down on those and really accelerate them like crazy because right now, net net, we're not getting it done. How long does it take CO two levels to catch up to emissions? Like if our emissions are going down, like when do we start to see that in the atmosphere? Well, global emissions are still steady and it's just still increasing a little bit. So the US, Europe, our emissions are down. China's, which is the biggest emitter of all right now, about 25% of the world's emissions are just China, maybe closer to 30%. So that's a huge part of the equation. That's just peaking now. But then there are countries like India, Indonesia and others, they're still rapidly going up. So you add it all together, the world's emissions are basically flat and going up, but maybe a teeny weeny little bit over the last couple of years. hopefully they'll start to level off and then bend down pretty soon. So the US emissions are going down, but the atmosphere doesn't care. It just mixes it up with everybody else's emissions in the air. And we have one just big global picture. But I that's why I'm just saying underneath the global picture, we see some countries are getting ahead of the curve while others are just hitting it and others are still behind. And that's why it's so uneven right now. And we need to get everybody into the face where all countries have all emissions going down as fast as possible. And we're still a long ways from that. So let's say you're one person in the United States and you feel kind of hopeless and you know, you want to take some individual actions, but you don't feel like they're gonna make a difference. Can we talk about some stuff that individuals can do that actually do make a difference? Well, yeah, of course. you know, there's this false debate out there of, you know, well, we need systems change, not individual change. Like, what do you think the systems are made of? We're all part of systems thinking recognizes that systems are organized. At many different scales from the family and household level to the neighborhood to the city to the county to the state to the world, whatever. And we're all connected through trade, through media, through culture, through economics, through voting and policy, through community, through all these different things. So I really get kind of irritated when people think like, my actions don't matter. I'm like, yes, they do, and enormously, and they sure matter when you give up without even trying. That's the worst thing you can do. You just hand it a big Fat wind to Exxon and the oil producers and those guys when you just sit down and say, I can't do anything. Of course you can. So get involved. Get do some things. Now it turns out that we have a lot of different ways we can show up in the world, of course. And one of my great colleagues, woman named Kim Nicholas at Lund University in Sweden, she's a professor there at Lund in Sweden. she used to be a student of mine years ago and her master's degree, but then she won and got her PhD at Stanford, is just wickedly smart, amazing person. She created a kind of a guide toward individual climate action that's really grounded in the research, but also is really friendly and really respects people as individuals and realizes everybody's a little different and how they can show up in the world. So we we actually teamed up with her to create a web version of this called Shift. So if you go to jointheshift.earth. Kind cute. jointheshift.earth is the website. It shows you basically how we all have our own kind of superpowers when it comes to climate change. In some countries, you know, how you vote is a really important way to contribute to climate change, not just for national elections, but even locally. Things like, you know, the zoning board, who decides where solar panels can be built or not, or, you know, your towns deciding whether to get a charging station near that intersection or not. Those are some of the things you can get really, really involved with, even if the beltway level politics seem a little broken right now. And there's still a lot to do with your vote nationally, statewide, and locally. So please, please, please do that. But also as an investor. And most people don't think of themselves as an investor, but a lot of people have a bank account. A lot of people might have an IRA or 401k. And so you're giving that money to a bank or to an investment firm to manage for you. But How are they using that money when you aren't looking? Are they in turn loading it to fossil fuel producers to drill for more oil and gas? Are they helping to enable things like further climate change? You have a choice. You can say, I don't like that bank doing that. I'm going to put my money into the other bank down the street. Or I don't like that 401k or that IRA. I'm going to change it and find one that makes sure that my money never gets in the hands of fossil fuel producers. Those instruments exist. And so Shift shows you some resources to find out like, hey, where's my bank account? Where's my IRA? Can I move that money around? That could have a big impact and at no cost to you at all. We also, of course, as a consumer, things like, you know, do I have to fly everywhere? maybe I can kind of cut down on my flying. Do I eat a lot of red meat, which is a big climate polluter? Do I waste a lot of food? Do I have really inefficient things at home? And has a nice checklist of things you can kind of look at that way too over time. And anyway, so check out, yeah, join the shift. It's super fun. You can log in and create a little account there if you want to, or just be an anonymous guest, up to you. And it gives you dozens of ideas of things you can do, but it's tailor made to like where you live, your lifestyle, what you're up to. And I really, really encourage people to check it out. And also to see there's so many other people just like us out there who want to do the right thing too and are kind of struggling to figure out what to do next. And I don't know about you, but I think it's really good to find a little community there. Like, you know, hey, wow, there are other people who care about this like I do, who are struggling a little bit and that's okay. Nobody has to be perfect. We just have to keep trying. And so I think it's a really great resource that way too, to kind of fit, you know, form a community of people who seem to give a damn about this and who are recognizing sometimes this can be hard to make these choices and to feel informed, but they're doing it together. How do you suggest people who want to talk about climate change, have strong feelings about it, but aren't confident or don't want to face any sort of divisive people who don't want to have like a combative conversation? Cause it can be, you know, like a polarizing topic with some. So how do you suggest like we have conversations without it becoming fueled by anger? You know what's really kind of a shame, I think, anyway, is In any given topic, climate change, you know, the national debt, you know, your favorite football team or whatever, there are some real jerks out there on either side of any issue. There's like, you know, any given topic, there's five percent of people who are just complete jerks over on this side and maybe another five percent over there. And they just want to tear us all apart, even the ninety percent of the middle who could get along just fine, even with mild disagreements sometimes. So my my advice is don't listen to the extreme edges of any conversation because they want to scare you, they want to divide you, and either they get some kind of weird psychological kick out of being kind of a jerk, or it's a business model. There's a trillion dollar industry now of social media, AI bots, cable news, talk radio, and social media that is deliberately trying to tear us apart. Our media ecosystem, our political ecosystem, and some of our activism ecosystem is designed to scare us and divide us for money. That's what pisses me off the most. And it's whatever topic there is, you'll find it. It's everywhere. It's the single, in my opinion, anyway, the biggest problem we have because it makes it hard to solve other problems. But the reality on climate change is most Americans agree on it. Like 90% of Americans roughly believe to some extent or another that climate change is probably real. Take the 90% and it's a win. You don't have to debate the 10%. Like, forget those guys. You know, don't worry about it. You get like 90% of people saying, huh, something's going on with the weather and with climate. About 70% of Americans are kind of freaked out about it. Like, whoa, this is really weird. I'm kind of scared, but I don't know what to do. But here's the weird paradox. Even though the vast majority of Americans are aware of it, believe in it, are kind of freaked out at some level, it is not. not not not the top issue facing Americans at all. no poll ever, no Gallup poll, for example, has ever shown more than about 2% or 3% of Americans listing any environmental issue as their top concern. So it's a background concern, people are more or less agreeing on like something's going on. I'm a little freaked out, but in the meantime, I've got to pay my bills. I have concerns about my kids' school. I'm worried about healthcare. I'm worried about the inflation. I'm worried about my community or whatever. You know, kind of kitchen table issues always come first. So let's talk about those. That's where the climate community goes off the rails. We think in two ways. We think it's more polarized than it actually is. People agree more than we think they do. And second, even though maybe you and I are in the two percent of Americans who think climate change is like the top issue we face. Just forgetting that the other 98% are smart too is kind of wrong. I think instead of saying, hey, let's try to drag that 98% to be like us, I say, screw it out, give up. Go meet them where they are. The first art of communication is understanding the audience. Who are they? Why do they what are you concerned about and how can I help you? So that's how I approach climate change is let let's meet people where they are, be respectful. And, you know, try to understand the concerns people have about the world, not just climate change. And you'll hear people concerned about jobs and about health and about communities. And what I like to do is then say, hey, you know what would really help for the things you care about are these I don't even call them climate solutions. They're things like renewable energy that keeps gas prices low because you don't need as much. It's things like retrofitting homes so your winter bills aren't so crippling when you're struggling to pay for daycare and in prescription drugs. And now you get a big heating bill in the winter that can help you with that. It's things like building cleaner air in your community. It's things like having stronger jobs, stronger communities, and so on. So meeting people where they are, talking about the benefits of climate action without being polarizing. One example, I mean, sorry to ramble on here, but like I used to live in San Francisco and then Through a weird series of accidents, I found myself in a really rural part of Minnesota that voted heavily for Donald Trump. So I couldn't quite imagine a more kind of ends of the spectrum places to live within about a year or two, one of the most liberal places in the country and a fairly conservative part of the country. I found it easier to talk about climate change in the conservative part of the country, to be honest. At least the way I do it, because I wasn't talking about radical stuff. I was talking about like, hey, how do we create jobs, improve? The cost of living and improve our communities. And everyone I met's like, yeah. Okay, tell me more. But you have to approach it with respect and realize, you know, these people who you think you disagree with, you probably don't on things that matter. You know, they love their kids too. They want to have a good town that's thriving. They want to live in a place that's giving back to the future, building a better world for our kids. of course we have a lot in common. So let's remember that and don't let the the Jack Jackals in the corner divide us, because we're actually not as divided as we think. Yeah, it is interesting. I've experienced the same thing. And so I the amount of misinformation I've seen and heard come out of climate activists is alarming to me because if that's the voice, if that's the the front page here of what we're trying to accomplish, that's problematic. Yeah, it's kind of weird. you know, I'll try to give the benefit of the doubt and think some of that's well intended, but it sure as hell doesn't have a good impact. it's scaring people often with information that isn't actually accurate. It's kind of weird. Like, you know, twenty years ago, 10 years ago, people worked in climate change were used to climate deniers. The people like this isn't happening, it's all big hoax, blah, blah, blah. Well, they don't have a leg to stand on. People can look outdoors and see, like, holy cow, this is happening. I you know, that that argument that it's all just a a conspiracy cahoots of scientists or something, it's just not credible. But now we have this rise of this other kind of argument of climate doomerism, like you know, these people who seem to revel in spreading this message that we're all doomed, you know, and I know better. I'm the scientists are lying to you. They're not telling you the truth. I have insider knowledge that tells us we're doomed, doomed. I tell you, you know. I'm like, first of all, have you ever met a scientist? Like, do you think they can are capable of shutting up about their work? Absolutely not. They would love to tell everybody about what they're doing. There's no scientific Conspiracy. They're just not capable of it. Have you been have you been to a faculty meeting? I mean, like, come on. If you think we're pulling off a grand conspiracy in the world, I've got news for you. ain't happening. So, you know, first of all, like that's not true. But I think there's this weird, I'm getting attention, I feel smarter and smugger than other people by kind of telling, you know, you're naive by even trying. Let's just give up and revel in misery and doomerism. Gotta ticks me off because it's scientifically and morally bankrupt. You know, it's not scientifically correct. We still have choices about what the world's going to look like in the future. Don't take away my agency, damn it. But also it's just morally bankrupt. Like, wow, you're giving up on everyone who will ever live after you before you even tried. Thank God your parents and grandparents weren't such cowards. Because every time in history has faced challenges before, and in the past at least, people stood up to meet them. And thank goodness, because we wouldn't be here if it weren't for people like that. So I I think everyone who's already given up and reveling in doomerism should take a hard look at their ancestors who would be really ashamed of them right now. And so, you know, how dare you give up when we've handed you the world on a silver platter and you just cowered in the corner and, you know, said, you know, I I don't even want to try. I don't know. You can tell it kind of ticks me off. I think it's just, you know, scientifically and morally completely bankrupt to just do go do that. But it's really common. On social media, probably because it spreads well in the algorithms, but also it makes people feel kind of puffed up and important when otherwise nobody'd be paying attention to them. I'm not sure. But we definitely need to kind of look beyond the Doomerisms. And and they've been around since like forever. You know, the end is nigh kind of stuff. But what we have here is a challenge, but we also have an opportunity to meet that challenge and build a world that's better than anything we've ever seen before. I'm going through door number two, Alex. You know, I want the better world. That's the one I'm gonna work for. And I think most people want to. Okay. So let's say we're headed into that door. Are there parts of our system that we do need to kind of not necessarily give up on, but maybe pivot like certain things where like that's the damage is done. We need to pivot. I'm thinking like sea level rise and like infrastructure where we can't go back. We need to like change the way that we're doing things in order to deal what's already happening. Yeah, I mean, there's no way to avoid all of the impacts of climate change, because as you point out, a lot of them are here now. And some like sea level rise are going to continue for a while, no matter what we do. So unfortunately, some of the damage is already here. The question is how much worse do we let it get? and I don't want it to get any worse. You don't either. So that's why we, you know, let's stop at, you know, can we stop the world warming at one and a half degrees? Well, that's probably out the window now. But what about 1.6, 1.7, 2, 2.1? Every de you know, tenth of a degree we can work on to stop climate change a little bit sooner, or even delay it into the future a little bit longer means human lives are better. It means, you know, the world's a little better. Another species might still be here with us. And as long as there's whales on this planet, as long as there are redwoods still on this planet, as long as there are children on this planet, I'm not giving out. And so even if we pass those kind of thresholds that people defined as the Paris accords of like, you know, will the world be one degree, two degrees, three degrees, you know, whatever, sooner is better, less damage is better. So that's what we're kind of fighting for now is like, you know, how do we kind of stop as much damage as possible? And in the process, build systems that actually can still lead to an overall better world. Yes, there's damage, but we're also looking at a world for the first time in history where we could also eradicate hunger. We could have 100% literacy. We could have zero poverty. We could have energy systems that don't pollute. We could have food systems that give land back to nature. We could have a world that's pretty bloody amazing actually. Even with some damages from climate change, there's still a world out there that's better than any world we've ever seen before if we go out and fight for it and go build it. But it's not going to happen on its own. Realistically If we did all those things, do you think we could be looking at a better planet in fifty years? absolutely. it's possible. No guarantees. That's the you know, no the future isn't written. It's up to us to write it. But yes, I honestly do believe, in fact, I emphatically believe that a better world than any generation has seen before is still in reach if we want it. It's not a perfect world. It is a world that has already warmed, maybe one and a half, two degrees. It's a world where we have lost some species. It's a world that'll have a higher sea level rise point than we have seen before, of course. So that it will be somewhat damaged in some places. At the same time, though, it could be a world where we build a different kind of economy, where everybody gets to thrive, not just the few. It's a world where we don't have to damage the planet and the future to live well today. It's a world where everyone could have basic energy, water, and food. It's a world where everyone could have, you know, elimination of poverty and infectious disease. This world where literacy and education could be available to everyone. we're the first generations in human history that could even imagine that world. And I think we have the responsibility to try to build it. But if you think back, you know, going back thousands of years, no people in history have had it as good as we do now in terms of the opportunities we have in front of us. So now what we need now. Is the courage to do what's right and to go build that better future. Even if it's not perfect, it could still be a better world. And certainly a much worse world is also a possibility. I often talk about this as like kind of a race between two futures. Like people ask me all the time, what's the future going to be like? I'm like, I don't know. And nor does anybody else. Anybody who confidently tells you they can predict the future is lying. But I do know we have a choice. And at one end of the spectrum is a world that's really shitty. Awful, terrible world, we could have that. There's a lot of forces pulling us that way. We also at the other end of the spectrum have a world that's pretty bloody magnificent and amazing and really cool. So what do you want? Star Trek or Mad Max? and probably everything in between. So that's up to us, up to all of us to make our choice and make our stand and see which world we end up with. But I want to remind ourselves that a really good one is also possible. but it doesn't happen by default. It will only happen if we build it. Where does your motivation come from? Well, along those same lines, I I think a lot about history. I think a lot about the flow of people through history and the generations that have struggled and fought and bled and some died so that we could inherit a better world. Generation upon generation have always had that kind of handshake. the next generation to say, you know, we're gonna do our best today so that you can live better tomorrow. And call me corny. maybe I am. I love corny. Yeah, I'm pretty corny about like, you know, I still believe that that was the American dream. The American dream isn't to go win, you know, win the lottery ticket and get rich in Vegas or on cryptocurrency or some crap like that and get rich fast without working very hard. That's not the American dream. That's the American nightmare to me. The American dream is like live a good life Invest in your community, invest in the future, and try to make sure the next generation lives better than you. I think every generation before us tried their best to do that. Some did it magnificently well, standing up to fascism, you know, creating, you know, the middle class of America, inventing things like public health, public education, creating a world that previous generations couldn't have even imagined. And we're the inheritors of all that sacrifice, all that work, all that vision. And what to me motivates me is like I will not let my ancestors down. And I don't want to let my kids down either. And say, like, you know, don't we have a moral obligation to kind of follow that unwritten commandment of leave a better world than you yourself received? And if we don't have that moral compass, then we're never gonna get anywhere. Do you ever get exhausted though? Like, how do you how do you re-energize yourself when it gets kind of maybe feeling hopeless or exhausting doing the work. yeah. I mean, the people talk about that a lot, of course. And I think it's good to acknowledge our feelings about, you know, yeah, th this can be pretty, pretty heavy sometimes. There's, you know, you can have days are where you're gonna lose and days where you're gonna win. and I think, you know, just keeping those intention, I often think the best place to be is somewhere between despair and hope. on one hand, like you can look to your left to say, wow, that's really horrible. But then over here, maybe you'd be inspired by what could possibly be. And I think, you know, one extreme or the other is you're lost in Lala land of happy go-lucky stories, but not motivated to change much, or you crash into total despair and nihilism. I'd like to think of that as some, you know, maybe the tightrope in between those two places, somewhere between those two worlds. is kind of where I tend to sit. A lot of people ask, like, you know, well, what gives you hope or whatever? And is I really encourage your listeners and viewers to check out a writer, a brilliant, brilliant writer named Rebecca Solnet. she wrote a book once called Hope in the Dark. And it reminds us that hope is a verb. It isn't a noun, it isn't just a thing you go get on a shelf. You have to do it. Hope is different than optimism. Optimism is a noun, it's just a thing you can be or have. Optimism kind of believes in the invisible hand of the market or technology or somebody else will make the world okay, even if I don't do anything. That's optimism, just blind belief somehow it'll all turn out okay. I am not optimistic, but I am hopeful. Hopeful means like I have agency to make the world better. And even if we fail, I'm still going to be hopeful because hope means you will give your heart, your time, your soul, everything you are, even in the possibility of building a better world, knowing. Full well, you may fail, but hope is like love. You have to do it. It isn't just something you have. like maybe faith too. It's just, you know, it's a practice, not not a characteristic. So I mean that sounds a little heady, but I I do find even in times of kind of like grim reality checks, still maintaining a bit of hope, but like a yes, this is shit, but a better world is still possible. That's what hope is, acknowledging that things can be pretty rough and you may not win. But there's at least the possibility with some effort we can make things better. And you know what? At the end of the day, the world doesn't give a damn how we feel. It matters what we do. So I I I do appreciate a lot of people talking about climate grief and anxiety and all this stuff. But you know, like the people storming the beaches in Normandy didn't talk about that. They just did it. Thank God. And so I think we also need to grow a bit more backbone in our generations. Yes, acknowledge your feelings and all that. But at the end of the day, we'll be judged on what we do, not how we felt about it. Did we stop and make a better world? Or do we kind of just feel bad and say, I can't today because I don't feel up to it? Like, well, that's fine, but you know, the world needs us to act, not to just to feel. Thank God, dear parents didn't just be crippled by anxiety. Otherwise, none of us would be here today. So we need to acknowledge those feelings and inspire something out of them, of course, and process them. But at the same time, we have to do, otherwise, it's all for naught. You know, stop making it about ourselves and make it about, you know, our responsibility to the world and to act. And so that's what motivates me more than my own feelings is like I feel a duty to do these things. I think we all have that moral duty, but somehow we've forgotten it and we've become very inwardly focused about how we feel. And that can kind of cripple us not to rise to our best selves. And so I hope that's something we can kind of navigate a little bit. But that's just my my personal take on it. No, I like that because it's it it makes me think It's like a parent thing, grow up and just do it, you know. Well, I mean a little bit. You know, I think the world could use a little tough love sometimes. Like, Yes, I know you're sad, I know this sucks, but you know what? we gotta get up and off the mat and do this stuff because the people are counting on you. And you know, why run up the white flag when the world's on fire? I think we had to get in there and pick up a shovel, you know, get to work, please. We need everybody. And so you know, the one hand, you know, respecting you know, how difficult this can feel sometimes. But at the end of the day, it isn't your feelings don't matter to anybody else but you. They only matter what you do. And I think we had to start thinking about how other people are feeling, not just ourselves. And how other people maybe don't have the same agency and the same opportunity and the same privilege. so many of the people I know who are crippled with climate anxiety right now are some of the most privileged people on the planet. They're not actually on the front lines. of climate change usually. So that's why I'm kind of like scratching my head about that. Like, well, but you could help people who are really in a life or death situation about climate change. And so I want to just I think it'd be good for us to kind of step up and see if we can hear the call to be the best version of ourselves, to kind of step up as a couple of generations to say, Hey, I want history to look back in this time and be really proud of us. Say, you know, their backs were against the wall, but they stood taller than ever. And confronted this challenge and ended up building a better world for all of us for the future. That's what I'd like us to do. And I think we're still a long ways from doing that right now. okay. Well, I often feel like my tool is communication, like you, a little bit of a different form, but in the media, because we do have a lot of like broadcast meteorologists that listen to this, digital meteorologists. I wanna know what you see the media. or science communicators doing wrong and what you see them doing right. That's actually been really effective. Well, gosh, I mean such a great variety of people who are doing science communication, but I I love, love, love. and I think, you know, a lot of people recognize that kind of broadcast meteorologists are really on the front lines of being great science communication professionals out there. They're they're really kind of the people that you know we run into every day. it's sad that, you know, kind of broadcast television and things like this seem to be kind of fading a little bit to getting onto our phones, but people are adapting, people are trying out other venues and things, including podcasts and other things. I think food and weather are the things that people can relate to a lot. We talk about them every day. We kind of encounter them every day. It's not Republican weather versus Democrat weather. It's just the weather. We're all affected by it. We all see it every day. We all experience it. It's something we can all talk about. It's similar to food. It's something we talk about three times a day. And everybody eats everybody loves delicious food. People tie it to their culture, their region. And that can also transcend politics sometimes. So I think those kind of everyday things are really important and an opportunity to connect to people at a human level. that's a little different than just a dry lecture about greenhouse gases or something. So I think yeah, meteorologists are heroes in terms of this whole universe of science communication. And they're trusted for the most part, which I really appreciate. More than Congress, more than a lot of other people. It doesn't always feel like it. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. But you know. So for I was the head of a science museum for a little while in a previous chapter of my career. And one of the things I was astonished by is how much people really have a high opinion of scientists were pretty, you know, pretty well respected, although it's going down a little bit, actually pretty highly. Doctors used to be, but that's gone down a little bit too. But meteorologists were really high, but also things like parks and museums and kind of part of our civic culture. That doesn't appear to be about politics or business. Those seem to be divide, you know, AI data centers and politics and stuff are really divisive, but the weather, we're all in that one. So I think meteorologists have a special opportunity to kind of be the ambassadors of good science to everyday folks. You're trusted, you have to learn how to explain this stuff really well and clearly. most of the, you know, kind of meteorologists I know in broadcast or print or whatever are amazingly good communicators and awfully, you know. charismatic folks. Otherwise they wouldn't be very good at what they do. And yeah, I think that's really great. It's one of the few fields of science that gets in everybody's living room every day. that's that and maybe medicine are about the only ones that really get that kind of attention. So I I love that. But have you seen anybody, not necessarily meteorologists, but like the media tell stories poorly or do things on digital that are actually really effective. Yeah, I mean, it's a mixed bag to be sure. as we move to more and more social media, for example, this is just my personal opinion, but I think there are some extremely effective science communicators who use social media. There's a guy in the Netherlands who has a little Instagram page called Fork Ranger, and he's does incredibly good work on talking about the links between food and climate change and the environment. And he uses these amazing little stop action animations with Lego bricks kind of showing here's the area of rainforest clear to create a hamburger or whatever. And he does it with little Lego bricks and it's like super engaging, fun, clear. And I happen to know that the science study that is underlying all of it is actually pretty damn accurate. He does his research really well. But it's also fun and engaging and a really popular little website or I'm sorry social media account. So I really like that one. There's a guy named Simon Clark who has a YouTube channel, also on Instagram. Who has a PhD in atmospheric physics and he does a really good job of explaining sometimes weird esoteric things around climate change incredibly well. And then we have, you know, kind of the usual suspects in climate science, like Catherine Hayho, Michael Mann. I do try to do stuff on the more solutions end of the spectrum. There are people who are, you know, really know the science and explain it really well and are trying to use things like social media and other channels to to spread the word out there. So I think that's great. There are also some great climate journalists and others who I think are doing a good job as on maybe on Substack or in a podcast that are pretty good right now. So I love that stuff for sure. I'm not such a big fan of Instagram influencer types though, who don't really do their homework. There are a lot of those who are kind of, you know, the formula seems to be, you know, look at me. I'm in a really cute outfit and some exotic location and I have feelings about climate change. Great. Gets a lot of likes, but I think it's more, you know, is it, but that could be about anything. And a lot of times I just see stuff that like, wow, the, you know, the science behind what you just said is complete nonsense. And you could have spent five minutes doing a little more research or get a science advisor. And I know I and other scientists have been waving, you know, at these folks for years saying, hey, if you ever need help, just ask. There are tons of scientists and science communicators who'd be very happy to offer for free kind of science advising to people who have big followings on social. I've yet to get a phone call from any of them or an email, not one. So I I kind of I think there's like anything, there's kind of a lot of phonies who are using climate to kind of build their own personal brand and then watch them pivot into fashion or whatever the heck they do. That happens a lot. And I think that's kind of frustrating. And then there are the real people and like a who really are committed, who are doing a great job of communicating science. I find it pretty obvious within 30 seconds who's who. but I wish the larger media consuming public had a better choice. Well, we'll put those in the show notes, all of those people that you mentioned, so that people can link to that and find them easily and hopefully build their following. One other I should mention I really enjoy too is somebody called I think her handle is it's the garbage queen. Just look for garbage queen. Does a really good and has a really good science background, but it's also really engaging on social too, which is really fun and kind of brings out like unique perspective. But also she does a really nice job of mentioning, you know, we actually still have solutions out here. It's all, you know, I I love it when people aren't just gaming the algorithm to get maximum exposure for their personal brand and profit later. because the Doomers, they know that they know when they push that button, they get more likes. Than if you just talk calmly about solutions. If you scream into the microphone and you know, scare people, that's one way to go viral. The other way is to, you know, be super fashionable and be more of a lifestyle brand or something. That's another way. So I find those to be kind of irritating. But the calm but funny, engaging people who actually bother to do the homework and say, Hey, you know, I respect this audience. I'm gonna tell you what's going on, but also offer some opportunities and solutions. I think those are the folks who are doing the great work. And the good news is there are a lot of those, but there's a lot of phonies out there too. And I just wish we could kind of sort it out better. It is very tempting. As somebody who's attempting to make money at this as a full-time job, it is tempting to try to get clicks and get likes that way. And in a world where we're all everybody self-employed, you know, it it stinks that the digital space rewards that Yeah. I kind of that's kind of sucks. Yeah. I I I I understand like the temptation and you know, getting the likes and getting the views and stuff is is helpful for folks. But at the end of the day, is it really serving our bigger needs? Not always. Well, Dr. Jonathan Fully, is there anything else you want to add about Project Drawdown or the new videos coming out? Well, gosh, I'll I'll speaking of clicks and likes, I would encourage folks, if they don't mind though, to go to our website, drawdown dot org and just check it out. Everything's free. We're not asking for your money or anything like that. but if you want to make a donation, great, go ahead. But more importantly is to just maybe follow us on social, LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Instagram, wherever. And but also we have a great newsletter, which really tries to keep people up to date on what we're doing, but also what's going on in the field. And that's free and very easy to subscribe to. So yeah, just ask people to kind of help us spread the word. We don't have big PR budgets or marketing spend to help spread the word. We do r really rely on folks helping us. kind of get the word out there. So if your listeners want to help us do that, that'd be really appreciated. Awesome. Well thank you so much for your time today and for educating our audience. Well thank you for the chance and appreciate it and look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you to Dr. Jonathan Foley for joining me on this episode of Atmosphere. You can learn more about Project Drawdown, explore the climate solutions Jonathan talked about today at drawdown.org. Keep an eye out for those educational videos which will be coming soon. And we mentioned several social media accounts and other resources during this conversation. Those are all linked in the show notes for this episode. If today's episode sparked any questions, or if you just want to talk about weather and climate, You can connect with me on Facebook, Meteorologist Emily Gracie, or follow along on Instagram, Atmosphere Podcast. Are you a scientist with some exciting new research you want highlighted? Let me know. You may be featured on an episode of Atmosphere. For those who like to go beyond the audio, I'm also publishing deeper dives, episode recaps, and extra content every week on Substack. If that sounds like your sort of thing, I'd love for you to subscribe and join the community there. Atmosphere is a production of Mike Burst, produced and edited by me, Emily Gracie. And if you're looking for even more weather updates, check out Weekly Weather Brief. It's a fast-paced rundown of the week's top weather and science stories that I co-host with fellow meteorologist Karen Jerriman. New episodes drop every Friday on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts to keep you informed heading into the weekend. I'm Meteorologist Emily Gracie. Thanks for taking the time to slow down, stay curious. Then explore the atmosphere.