Latest / Entrepreneur Odyssey / Arjun Sen walked away from a VP role at Papa John's the day after 9/11
Transcript
- Tejneet Selhi: Hello everybody, welcome back to the Entrepreneur Odyssey. I'm your host Tejneet Selly and this is the show where we sit down with founders who've actually done the hard yards so you don't have to learn every single lesson the painful way. Before we dive into today's episode, a quick shout out to our sponsor AI Efficacy who help their clients gain efficiencies and grow their businesses through smart and personalized workflows. Check them out at ai-efficacy.com. Now onto today's guest. He spent 30 years helping some of the world's most recognizable brands, Think McDonald's, Chipotle, Coca-Cola, Walgreens, and many, many more. He's helped them understand not what they sell, but how they make people feel. He was the VP of Marketing and Operations at Papa John's, where his team built the online ordering system that now generates over a billion dollars a year. He's a keynote speaker, an author, a podcast host himself, and his life story was actually the inspiration for a 2004 Amazon Prime film, I Want to Talk. I'm genuinely excited for this conversation. Arjun Sen, welcome to the Entrepreneur Odyssey. Lovely to have you with us. Arjun: Truly my pleasure. Really excited to be here. Tejneet Selhi: Excellent. because I understand that you left Papa John's pretty much cold turkey and you had a big career. You did so well. And I just wanted to understand why you stopped and what happened. Arjun: It's you know, it feels like just yesterday, it was day after 9-11, and I was spending time with my daughter. She was eight years old, and all of a sudden I realized I did not know her. And if I have to do a very honest self-performance appraisal as a dad, I could not give myself even a zero on a scale of zero to ten. And so I really felt that. If there's one job I do right, I need to be a dad. So I quit. And there was no plan. And the moment I left, two things happened. One, I realized a lot of the love I was getting was functional because people who would earlier always be at my office, I couldn't get through. And again, it was my building the relationships that way. I took responsibility. But the second something amazing happened a few years later as I started the consulting company. I called it initially it was called Arjun Zen Inc., then we were called it Restaurant Marketing Group. And now we were trying to get outside the restaurants. And we were coming up with very structured names like strategic consulting group, like square, circle, triangles. And my little Tejneet Selhi: You Arjun: daughter, she was at that time, I think 13. She and a friend said, okay, what happens if we give you a name? Free pizzas? I'm like, done. Ten minutes later, they come up with a name where they write it on the board, Zen Mango. I'm like, really a Tejneet Selhi: Peace. Arjun: bad name. She said, no, no, hear me out. Zen is superiority, reflections, and also la you rhymes with the last name Sen, Mango, the world's coolest fruit. And you know, that's the time it dawned on me: wow, one, this could grow. Second, most of us adults put so many layers and constraints in our feelings. And these kids came and taught us that core feelings come from deep inside. And I think for the last twenty-five years, I've been appreciating Zen Mango and learning more about the feelings around it, how it was created. But that was an amazing lesson. Glad you took me back there. Tejneet Selhi: absolutely, because I love that. That was actually going to be one of my next questions. How did you land on the name Zem Mango? And I love it. I love that your daughter and her friend actually helped to create that name. And I think they did a great job, personally. It's a great name. Arjun: Thank you. Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: So one of the things you mentioned during our pre-chat was the only place you and I will be called by a number is in a restaurant or in a prison. That hit me. That really touched me. What is it costing brands to treat customers like a number, in your opinion? Arjun: You know, so to me I really feel that There are two kinds of businesses. One is transactional. You know, big major brands who have an obscene amount of marketing dollars can afford it. Like they can every week get the new set of customers and they have the budgets. There's nothing wrong about it if you have the money. But on the other side, if you are not that big business, you really have to connect to the heart of the guest. And that's the part where that personalization. Like I'll give you a very goofy example every Wednesday. One of my BFFs and myself, we meet at a breakfast place. The most non-assuming place. But you know why I go there? Every time I go there, the server remembers I like water without ice and will bring me a glass of water without ice. Like 6:55 a.m., it makes my day. They know my name, they know what I like, and it takes the small things, and that is the part where In any business, doesn't matter, B2B, B2C, anywhere, your customer decides at the end of an interaction experience whether to come back or not. It's just like a date. At the end of a date, you decide whether to go out with that person, with that person sitting in front of you. Life is not perfect. We are humans, we make mistakes. But if the connection is to the heart, people go above and beyond to forgive you and maintain the relationship. And that's what brands are missing is. not going that extra yard and choosing convenience, efficiency over connecting, pausing, lots of dollars are going out of the door. Tejneet Selhi: That's, yeah, I think that's such great advice, honestly. And you're right, you can do that in any single industry. It doesn't matter, right? So you had mentioned to me that you actually spent a night in a retirement home before giving a keynote there. Most consultants would just show up and speak. What made you do that? Arjun: So this is a little preamble story to say. Tejneet Selhi: Please. Arjun: During my Papa John's days, I was getting ready for this big promotion. And my boss, who was a very kind person, very supportive of me, I thought it's a done deal. I even had pre planned how to spend the money. But but only on that day when I met him, he went on, we talked about everything, and finally he said very casually, You're not getting promoted. And the reason was that you have got a little arrogant. Earlier you would be in the restaurant, in competitive brands, now you think you know everything. More than that, what I'm worried about is the culture that you're changing in the organization, that people who look up to you as the leader are changing following you. I was mad. Like I even must have done a few foot stomping before I left. And I came outside from the car called a headhunter. Okay, I'm done. But you know that night it dawned on me if I trusted my boss every day, maybe today I should trust him too. Next morning I went first thing early to the restaurant, not as a leader, but just as a To observe and play the game there, I realized what I was missing. And that's the part where I realized you cannot fake it. It's all about you have to be the customer, think like the customer, feel, and then you act. And that had stayed in me all through that that no faking. And that's the part where when that example that you gave me, that retirement home called me, it was part of the contract. I had to stay a night because I can't talk about what it feels like. Till I felt it. And this was one of those extreme cases where a simple thing I learned that if from this house where I am, if I have to go to a retirement home, there are rules. I can only take two five by seven pictures. Tejneet Selhi: you Arjun: It's not easy for me to choose. And there Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Arjun: were so many micro elements, it just dawned on me. And next day, when I went into their boardroom talking to the board, I said, How many of you spent the night? And nobody did. So I explained. And that was But you know, in life, when we become smarty pants, life comes back and teaches us. I thought I was very smart when I taught all these people. Tejneet Selhi: Mm-hmm. Arjun: I came back home and a bigger life lesson was waiting for me. We were doing some work in the master bedroom. My wife and myself, we chose that night to sleep in the guest bedroom. What happens in the guest bedroom is the master bedroom bed moves to the guest bedroom. And we have never slept there. And our guest bedroom bed, if you are at the corner, you fall off. But if you're in the middle, it's the most romantic bed because my wife and myself, we were Tejneet Selhi: Thank you. Arjun: shh close to each other, staring at each other's face. Tejneet Selhi: You Arjun: And that moment realized when guests have come over, they have not had the best night there. So we changed the bed, wrote notes to every person, family member who had come over. We have a new and improved bread, come over, we had a laugh. But that's what I've learned is whether it is the company you work for, or anywhere you are, even as a consultant, or even any home experience, be think, feel, act, no faking. Tejneet Selhi: Yes, no faking it because if you do fake it, I think a lot of people can see through it. Right? Arjun: Yeah. People are smart. Yeah. Tejneet Selhi: are smart. I think there's so much to be said about just authenticity. Just being authentic and trying your hardest. I'm gonna, with my customers, I'm gonna start putting myself in their shoes because I think that's such great advice. Arjun: I want to add something you said which is very important. It hit me hard. Is customers are smart. Okay. In today's world, a customer does not have to confront you and me. Okay. If you and I together are consulting, the customer may just say, Good, fine. To me, that is a numb customer. Okay. I really want the customer to share their feeling. I want to get inside the customer's mind. At the end Of a project working with you and me, what do you feel? And that feeling is very important because that numb customer, we always sometimes we take that as a false positive, it's not. Fine is a one word. If I put in, let's say, together, six months with a client, we deserve more than a fine. If we get just one word, that's a numb customer, I've lost the customer. Tejneet Selhi: They're emotionally disengaged, right? Yeah. Arjun: Yeah. Beautiful words. Beautiful words. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. And you never want that from a customer. You'd almost rather them be angry than, like you say, fine. Arjun: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tejneet Selhi: Gosh, yeah. Such... Yeah, again, great advice. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about where you think brand strategy is heading in the light of AI, right? As, you know, AI is transforming how brands communicate with customers. Does that excite you or worry you from a feelings business perspective? Arjun: So to me the first thing is we are getting all enamored about AI, but the bigger changes that's happening which AI can help us we are missing. If you look at the world is changing at a rate which we are not used to. My iPhone in three years is getting so obsolete that I cannot use the old version. Second, if you look at the gaps between generations are getting so strong. I was looking at that video the other day, is how people in different generations talk nonverbally. My generation Rolling the window was this way. This generation is this way. My generation, I took a picture this way. The new generation, the picture is this way, taking a selfie. So if you look at as the world is changing, which means so fast, and the divides are getting stronger, the commonality is still the feelings and the human side. That's the part where to me AI is that tool which I really feel. Is a blessing that has fallen on us. We needed it more than ever before. Because if you look at AI and you create a job description for AI, and to me, in any job description, it is what you will do and what you won't do. So AI's role as a marketing person is not to tell me what I do, it's to tell me how I do it better, faster. More effectively. But the thinking and the feeling has to come from me. In that retirement home scenario, AI is not going to go and spend the night there. If I asked AI, what does it feel to spend the night? AI will give an answer, but that would not have the human feeling that I felt. But if I take my feelings and work with AI, It will help me see the dimensions and everything else. That's the power I feel that, you know, let's not fight whether we need AI or not. Let's look at it's here to stay. Okay. When it's here to stay, Tejneet Selhi: They sound cool. Arjun: there will be two groups of people: one who will move Tejneet Selhi: and Arjun: on and one he'll stay back and fall behind. Okay. And so the whole question to me is very simple. Look at by saying, What are you doing? Your code does not change. How can AI help you do that better, faster, more effectively? In fact, even help you measure and then embrace and learn. Because how I was using AI, if you ask me two weeks back versus now, is evolving. This is a constant evolving. And I have a smirk on my face because I've never been this excited about work. Because now I have this most amazing assistant. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Arjun: Who listens to me hundred percent. That's the dangerous thing. The other day I asked Tejneet Selhi: you Arjun: it to take a picture that we had and I said, create a PNG. Then I realized save as a PNG and create as a PNG is two different things for AI. Okay. It created total different I'm no, then I said no, it's like having that tool that is hundred percent aligned with us is a powerful tool. Tejneet Selhi: incredibly powerful, incredibly powerful. And you mentioned that you're using AI, what you said, as an assistant just now, but what other ways is Zenmango using AI today? Arjun: You know, anything we do, when you start looking at layers of feelings, at the end there's a core feeling. To me, one of the things what I've realized is that AI's weakness is if it's a there's a hole in a data, AI does not raise its hand by saying there's a hole. AI fills it, which sometimes can be very dangerous. But the other side of it is AI can go through. and help us understand the underlying drivers which sometimes we miss. In my world, I feel seeing the unseen makes amazing insights and strategy forward inevitable and easy. If three of us are sitting there and we find that one amazing insight, which nobody is seeing. All of us together will find a solution. That's the easy path. And that's one of the things as we start going through, is to see underlying dimensions that we are missing, opportunities we are missing. So to me, that's the part we're getting the complete picture as you start going through. That becomes huge as you start going through. And that's one of the things I've learned looking at a lot of prompts, everything else is one of the amazing prompts is blind spot. Because My vision is this way, okay. We as humans are not meant to see behind us, okay? But the world is three sixty degrees. So that's one of the things, even if as a layman, you know, if you are starting, just know it's never too late. As you start on any tool you use, if just you start putting your work and ask the question, what are the blind spots and why? That itself is a great place to start giving you. You still will have to solve for it. AI can't solve it for you because AI can't be you. But giving you what you're missing, that's huge. Tejneet Selhi: What are the blind spots and why? I knew this was going to be a great conversation, Arjun. Arjun: No, no, think for a second, just for a second. Having that non-judgmental person who always pushes you to perfection. We won't ever be perfect as humans, but that non-judg like if if you and I work together and every time I found your blind spots, you'll get irritated with me. Tejneet Selhi: Right, right, I guess so. Yeah? Arjun: You should. Like that Arjun is a pain in the backside again. But when AI does that, I just take it with a smile. Like it's just like that non judgmental Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Arjun: way it brings to me, who I Tejneet Selhi: Hmm. Arjun: can whoosh any time I want is a very powerful tool. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like you're manifesting that you and I are gonna work together, Arjun, which I'm all for because you have so much knowledge and wisdom, which is amazing. But I want to go on to, well... 20 years of fighting, right? So your life story inspired a film, I Want to Talk Now, which is on Amazon Prime, and I really recommend everyone watches it. Without giving too much away for anyone who hasn't seen it, what is the unquit mindset and where did it come from? Arjun: To me there was no plan. Let's be honest, okay. Put yourself to be my best friend and you are with me thirty four years old. when being very lucky to get run at highest possible speed in the corporate world. Felt invincible. Decent attitude. Arrogance. Sorry. In that world, all of a sudden f in a meeting started throwing up blood. I'm in the hospital, two days of inaction. Sat in the wheelchair for a first time to realize total loss of control. To go to a restroom or a toilet, I have to raise my hand. Cannot close my door. Okay. And when the doctors come and say you have less than hundred days to live, it got me. Okay. Like because to me, I think corporate word, I knew how to have challenges, solved for challenges. I had a plan B, plan C. Here there was no plan A. Okay. But what I learned was when it was dark, my three year old daughter that time came and asked me three questions. Are you dying? No, first of all, what is death? Are you dying? And of course I lied to her. Okay. I felt if you die, you can lie. Okay. Sorry. Tejneet Selhi: You Arjun: But the third question was very important because that was her main question. If you die, who will dance with me at my wedding? And you know, in the business world and in life, if you as a human being lock into the purpose and you really want to get there. I'm going to bet everything, every dollar I have, that nobody can stop you. Will you get there? Maybe Tejneet Selhi: you Arjun: not, but you'll get somewhere. And that became Tejneet Selhi: you Arjun: the whole thing was earlier I was asking the question: can I get myself cancer free? Of course I can't. Now I reframed. Is there a cancer hospital somewhere that has a better treatment? Yes. Can I make an effort to get there? Of course, yes. Two yeses in a world of darkness, put light in. And that's the whole unquick journey is what I felt was once I start the tur lights of yes on, people stand in lines to come and help you. Like no exaggeration. My house became this is nineteen ninety-six, no internet. My house became a medical records headquarters. Friends were sending medical records to different hospitals. I was just putting things on a board and bringing tea to everyone. That's my role. The energy changed when I that's unquit all through is Quit or not quit is a choice and we make the choice. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, I really, first of all, I mean, you've been through so much, so, so much, and I love your attitude, and I... Yeah, I'm so inspired by you. I can't tell you But what do you say to founders then who are? Really struggling, you struggling to get clients in the door and What they're trying they don't want to quit but what they're trying right now is not necessarily working. Have you had? Tines in your founder journey where things haven't worked and have you had to pivot? Arjun: Of course, like the question is how many times? Yeah. And and that's the part Tejneet Selhi: How many times? Well, there we go, yes. Arjun: where you know as a micro consultant for both of us, as we start, there are times The pipeline looks a perfect zero. It is the reality. I want to be truthful. Because to me, Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Arjun: and a zero cannot be spun anywhere. Anywhere you look at the zero, it's still a zero. That's the you like with a six or a nine, I can spin it. A six, I can make it a nine. Zero is always a zero. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Arjun: But what I've realized is How you see yourself gets you through those days. I look at two things. One, the historic origin who has gone through every adversity. Did he come out the best way? No, but he always comes out. And then I also look at that there's a person on this planet who has challenges so much bigger who would love to take my challenge. Why not be grateful about that? And that's the part where when I'm starting from zero, there's a person who has maybe two billion dollar debt for his company. Okay. And right away it puts me in a perspective that I'm so far ahead of that person, which means my rule number one is pause, pause, pause. Second, appreciate people. Because it's the people who got me here. And then also I've learned is asking for help is a strength. And when I ask you for help, if you say no, I take that with a gratitude because you responded. Any response, I am grateful to. And once you go into that mindset, and now I'm getting tactical. Okay, my request is: if you are a founder, you're facing the zero, you may say, Arjun, you're doing all the BS. I'm saying, Sir, ma'am, I have a request to you. Can you go? every day and commit make a commitment that every day you'll reach out to three people. Share, ask for help, but finish with what one thing I can do for you. And that changes the energy. Okay. Even if that person cannot do anything for you, but if you leave doing something, you feel good. And feeling good is that energy recharge that you need because it's a long journey. And the game is a stop to me means nothing. You can still take a U-turn, there's no dead ends. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. Yeah. That's again, great advice. Arjun: Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about marketing because obviously that is what Zenmango does. question. You told me actually that marketing became your greatest superpower in a very personal fight. What did you mean by that? Arjun: So if you look at at the core of marketing, Is two very simple concepts. People do not buy what they are not aware of. If I have something in my hand, will you buy it? No, because you don't know what I have in my hand. Okay. And the second is even if I know what you are offering, you walk in as a generic one of many, which is ignored. Once you become one of few, you're noticed, but you're still ignored, which means you have to differentiate to be the one of one. So if you walk in anywhere as a consultant, as an entrepreneur, you show people what you do and you demonstrate how you are different and unique, people will pull a chair for you by saying, please don't go, let's talk the project. Can you start now? Okay. Because with a one-of-one, search stops here. So that's the concept I thought was my living, but I did not understand the word living. Because now when I'm in my doctor days, I realize that once I walk into my doctor's office, I become a folder. The doctor picks up the folder, looks at me, and says, Aren, I'm like Arjun Sen. And at the end of the session, when he or she puts the folder back, I realized. That generic potato, tomato, or a banana in a store. We pick them up, drop them back, not even realize the potato has a feeling. Okay. So I didn't want to be the generic potato or tomato anymore. So I started practicing with my daughter. My daughter is my partner in crime. She was 15 that time. How do I brand myself with my doctors? So this could be the cheesiest, goofiest thing you have ever heard. I do not do this outside. Only with my doctors, but I'm sharing with you as a secret. Okay. And to all of you who are listening. So my doctor now walks in and says, Arhun Sen. I said, no, no, no. It's R June Sen, sixth month of the year, June, put an R before. R June. And sane means sanity. I was married to a shrink, survived the marriage, but the head twitch is nearly gone. And some of the doctors Tejneet Selhi: You Arjun: picks the R June part, some pick the sanity part. Some will walk next date by saying our June, sixth month art, they don't forget. Some will walk in as if I'm a teenager or a five-year-old. Hey, do the head twitch. For branding, I will do the head twitch because that's my perception. I practice my head twitch. It's like scoring a goal right there. It works. KPI. Six out of ten doctors on an average. give me their cell phone numbers, which is absolutely impossible to get in this country. everything we are talking about is glorified BS unless it's connected to a purpose. The moment it's connected to a purpose, it becomes gold. So my KPI is I want reach contact with my doctors, then to recognize me as a human being, exactly the way a brand does. So you know, I'm so glad you took me into this because that's what I've realized that branding to a purpose works. You have to not stop till you get to the purpose. Okay. So anywhere you walk in, you are a brand. Okay. And the reason I say you're a brand, because it's not who you are, it's the perception of who you are that moves you forward or doesn't move you forward. Which simply means any one of you who are listening, watching this, my request to you is. This is the biggest thing I've learned in branding. Your brand core importance value is the perception of what you can do. Proven by the perception of what you have done. Very important. You cannot say I can do all these things. It has to be a perception in my mind. The proof has to be my perception of what you can do. And who manages the perception is you. And one of the things I've realized is that if you take this and connect to the no-faking everything, before any big presentation, everything I would present to myself on a Zoom call. I would watch it. And I would see what is the perception, where is Arjun coming across not convincing? Like there are times I don't believe in myself. Simple question. If I don't believe in myself, why should you? You shouldn't. And that's the reason my request is watch yourself on Zoom or anything over and over again. Walk in only when you are ready to hire yourself. Only then should you walk in because otherwise you're not prepared enough. Tejneet Selhi: I think that's again, so important to watch yourself back and know your strengths and your weaknesses. Because sometimes I think you forget your strengths when Arjun: Totally. Tejneet Selhi: all you're focusing on is your weaknesses or how hard something is, right? And talking of podcasts, you're on season 10 of your podcast. You've got the film. There's a new book in the works, I understand, on the feeling business. Where does Zen Mango go from here? Where would you like to take the business and... know, along with all the other things that you're doing. Arjun: I don't know. But this is what I know. What I do in the present. With all my heart, will open future paths. Okay. All I know is, you know, with everything else that has gone on in life, that every day is a blessing. I wake up jumping out of bed excited. I go to bed having an amazing day and feeling grateful. But I also feel that's the part where some people think strategically ahead. I have some plans, but I usually find that life makes bigger plans for me. So personally, I really feel that. Personally, with every client in every business, if you can focus on vowing that person now with your authenticity, and that's the word you use quite a few times. I think you know audience members should write that word down, like authenticity. And I also want to say add to what you talked about earlier was customers can see through it. So no fake. Customers can see through it. So if you put your heart into what you're doing now, opportunities have to open up. Tejneet Selhi: Yes, 100%. 100%. Such, such great advice and words. Firstly, You know, we haven't even talked about too much about your founder journey or really Zen Mango, but if you were giving any advice to somebody going into business now or who is maybe six months or 12 months in, what advice would you give them? Arjun: I would ask them to write down two things. One, whatever you're doing, it will come across very rude, but pardon me for that. The world does not need another solution till you establish why you. Very important. And once you lock that in, then the second part is a good sentence. The first one I was worried about, but the second one you would like is. As you see the hill hill in front of you, you know the somebody somewhere someday will climb it. Why not me now here? Why not? Like to me, that's the part where we just watch all these amazing, you know, Superman videos, this, you know, founders videos, this that come on. Your story is amazing, mine is amazing, everybody's story is amazing. So seeing that and believing that somebody and that I really believe, somebody will figure it out. I'm not asking for perfect. Somebody will figure it out. Give yourself the chance. Tejneet Selhi: Absolutely, absolutely, even through the hard days, just know that what you have is valuable. Arjun: Absolutely. Tejneet Selhi: And last question, if somebody wants to work with you at Zenmango, how do they get in contact? Arjun: So it's Arjun at Zenmango.com. Zenmango, the two words my daughter gave me, zenmango.com. I want to thank you on behalf of the self-appointed president of your fan club. Tejneet Selhi: Thank you. Arjun: what drives you to keep doing these. Tejneet Selhi: Honestly, it's the, I love speaking to people. I actually really enjoy the interview process. I've done radio for community radio for many years, which I love doing. But I love getting to know people. And I have a genuine curiosity. to learn about people, why they do the things they do, why they went into business. And then also, selfishly, I want to learn from people like yourself so I can implement strategies into my business. And then hopefully, for the listeners, they can also learn as well. So there's a few reasons as to why I love this. Arjun: But you know, word you said, I was nearly sure you will say that one word, is Tejneet Selhi: Which is... Arjun: genuine. And that's the part where for somebody authenticity is very important and there's no faking. This effort has to be genuine. And I really am so glad because you just demonstrated even in doing the podcast, that's not your core business. Okay, you're doing that additional for all of us. It's authenticity and genuine. Like if you're not authentic, not genuine, please don't do a podcast. Like please don't. But if you are, follow this rule. Thank you. Tejneet Selhi: Thank so much Arjun, I really appreciate that. And this has been one of those conversations I'm going to be thinking about for a long, long time. The idea that we're all in the feeling business and the gap between how a brand makes you feel and what you expect, that's where revenue lives. I think every founder listening to this needs to sit with that. If you want to find Arjun and learn more about Zenmango, head to zenmango.com. And if you want to catch the film about his story, I Want To Talk is on Amazon Prime right now. Links will be in the show notes. Arjun, thank you again. I'm going to use the word genuinely again because it's been a genuinely brilliant conversation. And of course to our listeners, if this episode gave you something useful, share it with one of another founder who needs to hear it. And that's how we grow this thing. I'm Tejneet Selly, this is the Entrepreneur Odyssey and until next week, keep building.