Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Healing a World Divided | a conversation with Amy Julia Becker

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Healing a World Divided | a conversation with Amy Julia Becker · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hi friends, welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new here, we're so glad you've joined us.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Here at Simply Wholehearted, we are sharing our journey as we discover how to better love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even though you might be surrounded by a world of half-heartedness, we hope to inspire you to living wholeheartedly as our friends share their stories and simple ideas of how they practice reach over perfection in their everyday.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Besides getting to hear from today's guests, I'm going to answer more of your anti grain questions and share some meaningful minute inspiration.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you keep listening after our conversation.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are diving into the conversation of race and privilege.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: If those terms make you want to skip this conversation, can I encourage you to stay just a little longer?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Amy Julia has done a brave work, and I strongly believe a movement can be birthed from her work to begin a conversation just like the one we're having within the body of Christ.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before you jump to conclusions, let me frame this core of this message with a quote from White Picket Fences.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Amy Julia writes, If I start to see people who seem radically different from me as those who instead are radically similar to me, needy, broken, with the potential for beauty and joy and glory, then love could begin to connect us, and fear would not be able to divide us.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was just telling Ashley, we haven't trick-or-treated in five years because there was uh a loss in the family, and then there was youth hunting, and then we traveled, and so there's all these reasons why.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I have kids around the same age, um, almost 12, 11, 8.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were thrilled.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: We went to a friend's neighborhood that my that my kids deemed, oh, this is where the rich people live because they were handing out King Size candy bars.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, they might be onto something.
• 2:18
  unknown: That's crazy.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and like sodas and lacroix and Pop Tarts.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't go to house tails for LaCroix.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, hello, I'm here.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is so funny.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was, it was really funny.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: They did have a blast.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was honestly the most perfect temperature we could have asked for.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't snowing, it wasn't hot, you know, it was just good.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So and you guys are are northeast, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Connecticut.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're Connecticut, and it actually was the mildest Halloween I can remember in terms of just them being out there.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, actually, one of my daughters, like her shoes started hurting her.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: She put on flip-flops and was fine.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was like 55.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: She was yeah, my son, my youngest, he uh he was the talk of the evening because he was a Native American and he was barefoot.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: So which interestingly enough, I know, I know.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone was like, I know, irresponsible mother right here.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know what was so funny, and I think this is ironic given the conversation.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: It came up are were the Indians, Native Americans, the good guys or the bad guys?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, how about that?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and fright in there, right?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, well, it depends on the situation.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because he also has, you know, the Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, you know, stuff.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so Amy Julia, please tell me, how do I thoughtfully answer that question?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I squirmed.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I hinned and hawed, I said something, but probably not as well said as it could be.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think like it's so good.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even to find out like why he's asking that question is really kind of a cool thing.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like where what has he learned that has given him a reason to ask that question?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so good to be able to complicate our narratives for our kids in in the same way that like I look back and I have a history of where my family came to America um in the 1600s.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and the history has already always been told that like our family members were massacred by Native Americans.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, and one and one of them survived.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I just did like a little digging because I'm like, I've always heard this as like we were the good guys, they were the bad guys, and we survived, you know.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like it's more complicated than that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, on the one hand, this member of the family who came to America was fleeing religious persecution in England, like that's why he came, because he would have died if he stayed.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he was like a refugee in that regard, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but then obviously the people who arrived here were like pushing out people who'd been here for a lot longer, yeah, and no regard for that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: But there was a time of relative peace, and the Native Americans used that time kind of wisely in some ways to be like, okay, they're not going to expect us, we're going to attack, killed a number of people who are, you know, my distant relatives.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and a couple of them survived and they continued on.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it was just interesting to like even look back on that story and be like, there's not a simple way to tell this story.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like and I think that's when this has come up with my kids, which has been through the like little house on the prairie books.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: It has been them being like, wait a second, it doesn't seem right for the this family that we're getting to know through these books to like keep pushing the Native Americans off their land, but how can these people who we think are so great be doing that?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and those have been good conversations in terms of like, yeah, human beings are complicated.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have, I think I said to Marilee, like, we have meanness in our hearts and we have kindness in our hearts.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And like, what are we gonna let win?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And how are we gonna do that?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and how are we gonna not see our life right now or our history in terms of like these just really rigid categories of good and bad, but let them like messy and complicated and acknowledge all that.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that's good.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is good.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, we have the by the shores of Silver Lake and our CD player in the car that we're listening to.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So as they're traveling, you know, westward expansion and all that sort of stuff.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think these are, yeah, maybe that's why some of those topics are coming up and yeah, that would make sense.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: The conversation.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I know, you know, some people are like, oh, you don't even read those books.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think as long as they are prompts for our kids to actually think through our history, and if we can guide them in doing that in a way that is nuanced and um honoring of all the people who were involved and like recognizing that people made bad choices and mistakes and did great things, you know.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's who we are and how we continue to be.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that can be really positive.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because like you, my we do actually we're like part of the Mayflower Society on my side of the family.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they legitimately were some of the first who faced those obstacles, but also face some amazing victories through that, but it's not clean cut, you know, all positive heroics.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's heroics, maybe, but sometimes to the detriment of you know others, you know, like a grief legacy.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So oh man, that's that's so interesting.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's such a I don't know, I think fascinating that it's hard.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it just needs to be let it be complicated.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's hard is when like I always heard the stories of because of course I'm white and the history is told a certain way, but like it's all this big adventure.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like we expanded West and we did all these things and the railroad, and you're like, Yay, that's awesome.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: But then on the other side, all the people that got displaced and destroyed, and and so I think it's really hard to tell a complex story and not and like you said, not villainize anyone.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard because when my eyes started getting becoming open to all of it, I was like, Well, I'm just done with America, like America's awful.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that you go there for a minute, and I'm like, well, no, no, no, no, no.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that America's awful.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it's a lot.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's that we're all a bunch of humans.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's made up of humans who are complex, and again, and like you said, we have the propensity for good and we have it for evil, and both, and both happen in the same life in the same lifetime, you know, in our own hearts.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just a whole bunch of individuals doing a whole bunch of things.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's just complex.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to hold all of it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's like um I went to the new African-American History Museum in Washington, DC.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the first things you walk through one room that is kind of pre-history um in terms of just Africa and trade with Europe.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you walk into kind of the when the American story starts, there's a big statue of Thomas Jefferson, and on the wall behind are like the words that he wrote of like, we believe that all men are created equal.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then in front of that, there are 600 and something bricks making a wall, each of them with the name of one of his slaves.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really powerful because it's holding this human being, like this image of a human being, this wall of you know power and oppression, and this wall of like freedom and like beautiful ideals all together.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very complicated, but also it's really um, I thought really was really well done in terms of we're not going to write him out of the history, but we're also not going to whitewash the history and pretend that all he was about were these ideals that we continue to really want to hold on to.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I don't know, that to me was a similar thing as what you were just saying in terms of okay, there's good and there's evil, and there are things to hold on to, and there are things to really lament, and there are other things to be so grateful for, and that's true for us, like in a very personal way, especially as white Americans, I think, and then also um on these like broader historical levels.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and then you bring like Christianity into it in terms of both this like religion of freedom and grief.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Also the amount of like oppression that has kind of you know, and and it's it's really it's really complicated, but I hope what that means is it's ultimately like humbling, yeah, and we get to a place of saying, we need some help, we want this to be better.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just have to see that we're moving forward in a story, like the the ideals were great, they just weren't fully applied and they weren't fully realized, and it's just the same way if you look at scripture, like the ideal is not fully realized yet, but God is moving us forward you know, throughout history towards ideal, and then of course an ultimate, the ultimate, but then and the same thing I think in our history as even just Americans is that the ideals were set forth, we just haven't fully lived into them yet, and so we have to keep pushing for it.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: We can't stop and say, Oh, we we're good, we're we're satisfied because we're not, it's not finished, and so we need to keep pushing as the people of privilege to keep, I think, pushing forward.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I um I agree, and I think the other thing that I really have felt as a person of privilege though is that uh for me one of the problems of being especially a white person of privilege is thinking, okay, I see the problem and I'm gonna go fix it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of instead of really listening and humbly admitting my sense of powerlessness in the face of the problem.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that ultimately, I mean, for me, it goes back to um, you know, Micah 6.8, like to love mercy and to do justice and to walk humbly with my God.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like I've sometimes been loving mercy and doing justice, but like forgetting the humility part, which is to say, a lot of this is gonna be me learning, a lot of this is gonna be listening.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's gonna be small steps that feel almost inconsequential, but might ultimately be a part of um some real change.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, that's just the other thing that comes to mind as you talk about it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think the humble part it it requires us to own up to the mistakes, even if it's of our forefathers, and to acknowledge and apologize and and take you know, even ownership like of our own mistakes because we were uneducated or just had no idea, didn't have perspective yet to know what we're we're speaking into.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And even to see what still is as far as you know, um and I think some of this goes into defining the terms.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was gonna ask you to define when we talk about privilege because that is such a trigger word for people.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but to uh just as individuals, as you're saying, have the humility to see it and to recognize that I mean because it the the tendency is to go, oh, I'm not participating in that, I'm not I'm not racist or I'm not whatever, but to look to be able to look at the bigger picture of just systems that are in place and things like that and recognize that they are there.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um anyway, I I wanted to ask you to um because I've heard you kind of redefine it a little bit in a way that I thought was helpful, and I think it maybe it was a phrase your husband was using to explain to people what you do.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um that I think makes it more palatable for people to to you know able to see it and own it and go, Oh, okay, I kind of see where you're going.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you say privilege, it sometimes shuts people down.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So can you just talk about that a little bit?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I have found that um privilege is a word that it just raises a lot of um defensiveness or either it raises shame and guilt, or people thinking that that's what it's supposed to raise, you know, and none of those things are positive, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Who wants to feel defensive, ashamed, or guilty um in just from a word being spoken?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: My husband, when he has been describing to people what I've been working on, has been saying um she's written a book about social advantages, uh unearned social advantages, just the way that she was born that allowed her to have a leg up in various aspects of life that some other people don't have.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is a helpful definition.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think about it actually in three different ways.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like a legal definition of privilege where voting rights are probably the easiest way to think of that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you're turned 18, you have the privilege of voting.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Before then, you can't.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not something you earn, you just turn 18.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um you just become suddenly.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be, I mean, the history of voting rights in terms of you know, property-owning white men have the privilege of voting.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: But then we now use that word um privilege to mean social advantages, not just legal advantages.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So even if it might be, you know, legal, legally, everyone, you know, is invited to this country club.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Only white people or predominantly, predominantly white people are there.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why is that?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And what social advantages does that bring?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because hey, if I'm at the country club with the guy who's the head of the company, then I might actually have advantages in the workplace that have nothing to do with me being a better lawyer or doctor or whomever, but just that I'm actually like sitting around at the pool.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, like those, so that's just one little example of something which doesn't really have to do with the law, but it does have to do with how these things can work themselves out socially.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: But then people also use the word privilege to mean wealth and affluence.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And certainly some of those other social advantages can line up with wealth and affluence, but you can also be a person who is a person of color or who you know has a disability or et cetera, and be wealthy.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so that can make privilege either feel like more like this overlapping, somebody called it a web recently, where you know, or a Venn diagram.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I also think though, I think there's like a deeper privilege that when we talk about um all these social advantages that we're like neglecting, like we basically all want to know that even though we haven't earned it, we are loved and that we can love other people.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that actually is a privilege we have, but it's the privilege of being human.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like a privilege that all of us share.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if we could cut through these other definitions of privilege, like the social advantage stuff, and instead of defining ourselves according to groups and putting up walls and barriers, we could get to that common human experience of like, I don't deserve the um the opportunity to love people and to be loved by them.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I get it anyway.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and obviously going back to the love we receive from God um at the core of our beings, like I do think that um our kind of human privilege can cut us off from that sense of the privilege of caring for one another and being cared for by one another and by God.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: If we realize that in the end, we're we we are completely undeserving and yet created for the very purpose to be loved and then to live that out.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really, really good.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: What for you, and I know that you talk about this in some of your your books and your writing and or this book in particular, White Picket Fences, but what was the catalyst for you to begin the conversation?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's you know, it is one that's starting to happen.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, you know, like Ashley alluded to, it feels a little, you know, it ruffles people's feathers and it puts people on edge and it's kind of tricky to talk about.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes I'm the last person in the world to be talking about it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that when I talk, you know, to my friends who who are a different race or ethnicity backgrounds, and they, you know, are in the stores in my neighborhood or close by, you know, they they actually do have a totally different experience that's worth talking about and asking about.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then I feel like it's it stops there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm like, what else can I do about it?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: How else can I talk about this?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to be part of the catalyst that changes it?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so just yeah, kind of curious to know what you know, what we can do, but also what started this um why you felt called to and compelled to talk about this.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I it's it's funny.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: I started off writing a very safe book, which was a book about reading books out loud to my children.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I was not about privilege at all.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as I was writing that book, I started thinking about the experience of my own childhood, which in my mind was really idyllic and like perfect.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I grew up in this uh lovely southern town that was functionally segregated.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And as I looked back on that as an adult, I started to see that the beauty and like safety and comfort of my childhood was somewhat dependent upon an economy that meant there was a whole group of people, all African Americans, who were living on the edge of poverty, even though in many cases they were working very, very hard and who had not been given the same educational or certainly job opportunities that I had.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I started to think about that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: I also noticed as I was writing about, well, one of the chapters in this book was noticing that the books I was reading to my kids, this wasn't true of my own books, but the books I was reading to my kids were almost, well, were entirely uh books with white characters because I was reading books that had been written read to me as a child.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started this exploration of children's literature and recognizing that that had been a problem for a long time.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just that I hadn't uh thought to look for books with people of color.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: It was that they didn't, not they didn't exist at all, but they did not exist in easy, easily accessible ways.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: So as I was writing this book about children's books, I started like kind of tripping my way into my own childhood, my own past, and this topic of privilege and recognizing the ways that like this is showing up even on my kids' bookshelves.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like it feels like this is something that's out there and that yeah, I can like do a little thinking about and maybe I'll talk about it, but it started to make me realize like, oh no, this is like very much relevant to my own life and my own home.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, also recognizing that the white people who I know um do feel either defensive or distanced from it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe there's a place and a need for a conversation and a gentle invitation into this really challenging topic because what I see out there are a lot of books that are um telling people by white people, telling other white people, here's what you need to learn, instead of here's what I've learned, and I want to invite you into that however you want to come.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: So telling a story instead of teaching a lesson, I thought would just be helpful in again trying to start a conversation and begin that sense of awareness, asking questions, and then ultimately, if as they did for me, asking those questions and raising that awareness leads to a sense of I want this to be different for me and for other people.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then asking the question of, okay, so how do I respond?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I respond faithfully, with gratitude, with grief, with repentance, with prayer, and ultimately with loving action in the world.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: So all of those things were what led from a book about children's books.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, what a leap.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, you also asked just like, what can we do?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: kind of question.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like what you know, and I do think having those conversations is a beginning.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and asking the questions, and just even like especially for people who are in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: families, like with our children, talking about the news, um, talking about race, like doing things like you know, taking our kids to museums, changing the books that are on the bookshelf, whether that's as an adult or as kids, um, looking at the where we're getting our news.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: So all of those things are part of just raising awareness, but I think can be really helpful in that and in exposure.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think a lot of um for me, like as I was working on this book, I ended up uh reaching out to an acquaintance of mine, really, who is an African-American woman about 20 years older than me, beautiful Christian woman who's also a writer.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Her name's Patricia Raibon.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I just asked her a question, but what led that led into was a relationship and ultimately a friendship, where essentially I ended up with a mentor um who is someone who I deeply respect professionally and personally and as a person of faith, but who also is a person of color.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: So has a very different view of news events and childhood and raising kids than I do.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's another thing that I think can be really to like deliberately seek out not just kind of parallel relationships like you know horizontal ones but vertical ones.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need a mentor.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be as that can mean reading books by people like that because books are teaching you, you know, and it can mean taking classes by people outside of your walls, you know but I think that's helpful.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course there's ultimately just the question of I think usually in a local sense um in what ways are these dividing lines present in our town or church or community?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And what are some ways in which I can participate in bridging or healing and those I think are going to be different from place to place but at the same time they are going to usually require some measure of like discomfort.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they're gonna bring some measure of like beauty and freedom and joy too.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah and that probably is an act of like banding together with some other people and saying okay where are the dividing lines?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they there?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and what can we do?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are some small steps humbly that we can take um to try to repair this I like that I think it's um that's something I've been wanting to do now for a couple of years because I know that um Latasha Morrison wait have I say her is that her yeah her bridge builder stuff um it's something I've been really interested in but I don't know that like right this minute I've like rag my brain where's the space that I get to do that because you know you do have to find people a space that will allow it people who are willing to go into it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really important um to even start and it's complicated because I feel like what you're what you're saying you know is that story is really important.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So what you did was look at your own story and now you've got this mentor who has shared her story.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think examining our own stories and then being willing inviting other people in people of color especially and just being quiet and listening to their stories I think is huge.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um to have that perspective because it's kind of what you said earlier is that sometimes we as when we see it as you know white people you see it and you're like oh I want to fix it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well no as you don't just rush in and fix it but you have to learn to listen and I think that um that's huge.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so finding I don't know I guess I've just been wrestling through that in my in my head.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been amazed just in the past I mean the book's only been out for a couple of weeks but I've been talking to people about it and hearing their stories and the number of people who said I just started to pray because I had no idea how to find a friend or a mentor who was a person of color and like the ways in which that does actually it might take some time but like lead to things and then ultimately to groups of people who are connecting and again it will take time but who are connecting building relationships and then ultimately changing but I think one of the other things from like a white culture perspective you know knowing that I have been shaped by a sense of like achievement and expectation I was just talking with a woman who's a um Christian woman she's in her 60s yesterday and she's been a pastor um at a church and she said you know I'm moving and and moving to she's been a pastor in a very white congregation moving to a church or not a church a chaplaincy position um that's going to be a chaplain of a place of Christian ministry that provides um health care to 65,000 people who are uninsured and who are predominantly people of color refugees etc and one of the things that that means for her is that she's taking a significant pay cut and so they're downsizing their house and and she's like and it's fine we've paid our college you know our kids have gone to college and I don't need all the stuff that I have and so this organization was kind of like oh there's no way you'll ever work for us because we just can't pay you what you've been paid and she's like that's okay you know and I just I was thinking about that in terms of like expectations that I think we often have for what we have to get paid um what jobs there for that we can do what we have to save for what retirement has to look like what college has to look like for our kids you know things like that it's like those things might actually need to change in order for our culture to change.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes it's about relationships and starting there but it's also about questioning some of the assumptions and things that we've thought are like super valuable and saying are those really kingdom values like is that really what God thinks is so important for your life is that you feel like really like your bank account is really safe.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know yeah you got that retirement fund in place like where was that in Mark?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know but you know that's a good question.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Ashley brought up a really good point we were chatting a little bit beforehand but about the fact that um I well about children's books and the story they tell is not really like the thing we want to read to our kids oftentimes when we're exploring books about what the experience was like to grow up in a segregated South or you know just even 50 years ago.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's a lot I spent a month actually two months with my kids.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I homeschooled them for several years um and I am so grateful that I took time to really dig and do some research again books that told you know another story because I was feeling too like we were reading books around the world and different stuff and other cultures that way globally but then I thought well wait a minute I I don't think we're telling the whole story reading the whole story about what you know the uniqueness that we have in America itself.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I hesitated at first when I started reading through them because I thought do I want to expose them to this because it is raw and it is ugly.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of the discomfort that even as parents and even as people need to be willing to step into is the come you know the discomfort of the ugly and the raw and the painful history.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and also again it kind of goes back to I think we as parents want to instinctively protect our kids from you know oh I don't want to tell them so horrible horrible things happened.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a privilege thing right because you know those who have that's their family history of lynching and you know segregation and the racism towards them and the abuse and that they don't get protected from that.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: But my kids had been protected up until that point.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as I hated to you know dispel the myth of what they knew before I was also the conversations the just the understanding their perspective I I feel like the shift is really really powerful even though it was really hard and maybe some parents would be like I don't think that's appropriate right that was a big shift for me.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: I felt exactly what you just described when I first started looking for classic children's literature that had people of color as main characters um and I found these books that had to do with the history of segregation and lynching and terror and fear and I thought I'm not reading this to my six year old.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I started this conversation with my friend Patricia and she said it's never crossed my mind that my kids get a pass on knowing about evil because is an act like I had to protect them and I needed to be protected and I and she essentially said not in these terms you are raising white children and if they don't know what white people have done to people of color over the course of these many years then you are a part of the very horror you don't want to expose them to those words she was much more gentle with me.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay I I thought she had a point and she was like look you teach a kid that the stove is hot and you teach them that they will get hurt if they touch it and you would certainly teach them that you're not gonna let somebody else burn their hand if you have something to do about it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know and so I that has been a transformative thing for me.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I did talk with my son about um the shooting in Pittsburgh this past week he's 10 now and I'm not sure I would have because I would have thought it's far away from here we live in a safe community where this isn't gonna happen.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of being like, you know what, William we live in a really safe place and I'm grateful for that we have Jewish friends and I suspect they are not feeling safe in the same way that they might have last week.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we want to be a part of not only making them feel safe but also knowing that if they were ever in danger we would put our lives on the line with them because of how much we value human life, value their friendship, you know, and we talked about that in a way that I don't think I would have a couple of years ago.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's a part of what we were talking about before in terms of that complex view of the world and yet also a simple message that love is stronger than fear, that God is in control even of messy, horrible and evil events um and that we like actually acknowledge something that is bigger and higher and deeper and better than just the way humans are trying to work it all out.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is exposing them to something good and true, you know, for their whole lives.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: That said I did not have the same conversation with my seven year old in part just because of circumstances, but also because I do think we have to be careful and we have to know our kids in terms of what you're exposing them to and when.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I've been really challenged and have changed my mind about exactly that issue.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's hard.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I grew up in Montgomery Alabama and so I was there this summer went to see my parents and stayed a few weeks and had my kids and so I went down to the National Memorial for Peace and Justice which was beautifully done and I cried through most of it and felt I mean I felt like oh gosh here's the white lady crying with all the you know I had all this stuff in my head I was like I can't help it I'm sorry but no but I and I debated I thought do I take my kids because but it's a lot and I'll have to explain it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just thousands of names and counties and states and I just was overwhelmed by it but I thought my kids need to see this I didn't take them because I couldn't I just I just couldn't get to a place where I thought I can do this well.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So but what would you like with things like that you mentioned the museum earlier and taking our kids places so how would you actually handle that do you think with your kids?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: I do think with those types of things some pre um preparing a lot of sense where it's like here's what we're gonna see what are the questions you've got maybe we'll read some books before we get there you know so they have a context for what they're experiencing.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think probably you doing that alone and getting through some of that grief was really important.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like it does not that's not necessarily something they need to witness even though of course for them to know that you cried about this would also possibly be helpful to them.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think like for me there are some books that I think have been helpful.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a um book called The Story of Ruby Bridges which is a picture book that tells about Ruby Bridges um and integrating a public school um that she's six years old when she does it so Marilee last year was six and she was so taken by that story.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean it really mattered to her because she could connect to it and it's a pretty beautiful and powerful story of faith because you've got this little girl who's praying for the people who are yelling at her as she walks to school and she talks about that later.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And certainly the same is true you know for each stage of our kids' development I think books can be a good um tool in that way.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah I think that it's good to face those things uh but again with sensitivity to who our kids are to who we are in terms of it sounds like you needed to do some of that on your own.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I went to the museum in DC by myself the first time and we're planning to go back with our kids this year.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: So similarly felt like I need to do some of this work before I bring them into it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And there are certain things that I don't think they are ready to to understand just developmentally not in terms of understanding that racism is something that's a part of our country's history and current moment.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know there's some simple things they can understand and other things that we're just laying the groundwork for them to understand later on.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right the the full scope and sequence as they can handle it and digest it.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think we do we really need to learn from our history so we don't repeat the same mistakes and if we're not if we're not going to teach it thoughtfully and proactively then someone else's and it may not be the right story.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's so important.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love so love that you I I it's so gutsy.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can I just say I mean I I applaud you because I think it takes a lot of guts and I I really really appreciate your approach.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been it's been awesome.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to see how it's being widely accepted you know just because you've made it so palatable and you've talked that it's story.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's about our story and examining that after that.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been thank you.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I've been amazed I mean so many people have talked to me about just like oh my gosh I can't believe you said it but at the same time a sense of like and I've been thinking this so much like there's such a sense of people wanting and white people especially I want to talk about this but I want to talk about it without feeling like I've just been put in the corner and someone is like wagging their finger at me.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I'm sure I have things that someone could wag their finger at me about it's still not a good feeling.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: And like how do we go here you know in a place that's honest but also gracious and generous to each other.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if my story is able to be a part of that then like that's a blessing to me.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've been so grateful in the past couple of weeks just to start hearing how God is using this book to open up those conversations and stories and healing in various relationships and and just that sense of yeah I want to do something.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be small but it's more than I was doing last week.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I guess so that's right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty awesome.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: How has the book launch been going?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: How has it been to juggle all the things this is not your first book book baby so you're sort of a pro.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean this is what three or four right for you?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes depending on how you count it it's three or four.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah because your first one was a memoir for of your mother in law correct yeah and that one I self-published so that's why I never know whether to count it or not you wrote it's a book it is a book I like it um but yeah this is the fourth also this is the fourth book I've written and um but it's funny it feels it's been four years and our kids are in such different stages so they just have different needs and um I haven't you know I I traveled last week and I'll travel next week and we just haven't done that in a long time.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: So on the one hand they're like oh yeah we're fine see you later that's awesome which is great.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I am yeah so on the whole I think it's been good.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's been really um powerful I was in Richmond and Raleigh and Durham so you know just kind of doing a little southern um week last week and uh just to hear from people what y'all are saying too like this sense of I really want to be a part of something that is acknowledging the wounds of the past and um turning towards healing for my own community like for the white community that's been kind of cut off from the wider um communities in all of those cities, but also in naming when there has been exclusion and in saying how can we make that different um so I felt so hopeful about the possibility of lots and lots of local communities um you know across this country and even I've had one person from Germany who read the book and was talking about the Syrian refugee crisis and how she's thinking about it in those terms.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you know even across the world but just thinking about how can we respond?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like how can we name what's really been going on what we've been participating in and um turn ourselves towards you know a loving God who wants to work through us to um change us, humble us care for one another and bind us together um in that privilege of being human.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it really does start at a grassroots level right and that's where movements can really be birthed little by little that's awesome.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well one of the things we like to ask or I in particular because I'm always so I'm a Anneagram three so sometimes I ask what any do you know your anneagram number by chance I I'm a one awesome really gotcha interesting that's awesome and it was interesting because when I had a separate conversation with Katie and Sarah you know to find out more about you like I bet she's a one and I think that was part of it.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you're thinking you're a thinker is how you would describe yourself which is a a beautiful gift.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: But all of that to say as an Anneagram three I am big on efficiency.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know how people get things done and Ashley's laughing at me whatever it'll get done.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it needs to get done it's gonna get done let's just sit around and feel our feelings yes so as a one I know I can learn from you because you're an organized person.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's a time management system that you're you're like this is working because I we I have kids similar ages so tell me what's working for you to do it all yeah you know I I feel like I'm gonna be a walking advertisement right now but I'm serious to do it I'm serious when I say that I've been using Michael Hyatt's full focus planner no kidding for the past year.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's been a year now and I love it.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really really love it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it takes a lot of work to get going he has like a series of tutorials and you subscribe and you get this like physical planner.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean tell me more it's great for people who are like I gotta get things done and make it happen.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you start by writing goals for the whole year and really thinking those through in terms of what motivates you and why are you doing them whatever and trying to bring everything back to those goals week by week it has a weekly review which I love doing and then like plan your week out um and I I think it's just terrific and it has truly like helped me to get more done but also to feel like I'm um taking care of the things that really matter you know myself my relationship with God my children family all of that stuff.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well I'm on board sign me up and so speaking of that too Ashley's just laughing at me the whole taking care of yourself you know you you you're like basically full time working yes inside the home outside the home you've got three kids all these other things that you're doing how do you take care of you and what does it look like and what's your favorite thing right now that you're everyone should take a bubble bath or everyone you know should do this thing.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: All right so one of my um one of the things that is not so great about me is that I tend to be pretty serious about taking care of myself which is to say there like are not bubble baths in my life.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: But because it's not efficient right like it's I just have a problem I'm with you I cannot do bubble baths but yeah I I so support people who can do bubble baths amen amen but I will say that for me so I have um kind of three different like prayerful meditative practices that I kind of cycle through um and I really notice days when I have not made that happen.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting one the one I probably go back to the most is I turn on a Spotify Gregorian chanting playlist.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like kind of monks in the background singing um and I set a timer for seven minutes and I literally just pray as I'm um inhaling for God's peace to be what comes into my life and as I'm exhaling that I would put my worries on him.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's as simple as that just like I pray and breathe in Please and I will give you my words, but sometimes it's much more specific.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I go through each child in terms of what I'm worried about and how I want to invite God's peace into that, or I'll go through each part of my body and what I'm worried about and what I want to invite God's peace into, or the world.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's so many ways to apply that.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that has been truly like that's beautiful in terms of reminding myself that um we I mean if we believe that God is um God, then we don't have to carry the weight of the world.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to carry those worries and we're invited to give them to him and to be protected by his people.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely have um been incorporating both Ashley and I know we talked about like meditation and some litodemena, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, right?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whatever.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, anyway, just some of that the more I and I think I was raised in a culture that would have said those are all new agey and that's just kind of out there, but I don't know.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought, hey, why not?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's the rebel in me.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's try it out.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this is good.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Life changing.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, it is exactly what you said.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's so simple and completely.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: We are so blessed when we like find out about these like contemplative practices that feel a little more like woo-woo.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then vice versa, I think people who come from a more like freeform, you know, less maybe biblically based, whatever, it's like, oh, and for you, we have something to offer, but I found something where it's just been so expansive having come out of a um and grown up in more of a you know Presbyterian young life, um, evangelical culture, which has lots to offer me.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: To also recognize there's this like a whole array of other Christians who are practicing this with some different nuances and to see that God is present in those two has been a real blessing.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it is for sure.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think this is great.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that people listening will be inspired to explore that.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: I know we'll be talking more about it on the podcast here.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be locating a Gregorian chant.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, me too on the Spotify.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: We might have to link that in the show notes.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Get my candles out, the keys, the light of fire in the fireplace.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Amy Julia, it has been a privilege to be introduced to you.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful to get to be a part of just spurring this message on, sharing it, and uh, we'll be doing that.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: It won't just be even I know I think it's one of those things that the conversation's just started.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's just begun, right?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it just it there's a lot more to happen from here, and it'll be exciting to see it all unfold.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: What an incredibly valuable conversation.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you found yourself cringing, please remember this is not about shaming ourselves for what we were ignorant of, but instead consider yourself on a path to growth and move ahead as one empowered to make a difference.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Love is stronger than fear.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Love requires sacrifice, and love can lead us to actions that are just.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: And true justice, God's justice, is about restoring relationship with whole communities, and it begins with us.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, I strongly encourage you to read Amy Julia's book White Picket Fences, and I think you'll be surprised how by reading her story, you will be provoked and empowered to acts of justice, which over time will create lasting change.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: For today's meaningful minutes, we're going to put into practice some of what we talked about with Amy Julia.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be for those who are needing to shake up your thinking and to help us all respond to privilege with generosity.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, as you think about the books you read as a child or you read to your children now, how many were or are about people of different ethnicities and national backgrounds?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, just think about that for a moment, and then maybe come back to it later.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, the second question is, what do you know about the history of where you grew up or currently live as it relates to race?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: This might give you cause to ponder for a little bit.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And for the third thing, for those who are looking to expand your reading, I've created a short list of books to read to the kids in your life, and even a few titles for yourself looking to expand your understanding.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's a lot, but I hope you take some time to consider our conversation, read Amy Julia's book, and ask yourself these questions.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for today's Aneagram coaching question, we're going to cover part two about the lines of growth and stress.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: This one is a deep dive, so if you're just beginning your Aneagram journey, be sure and begin with Simply Wholehearted episodes number 37 and 38.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can print off our resource list, as well as our charts for growth and stress, which are still available in the show notes.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Both can give you a great roadmap for your journey and a reference for this answer.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Growth and stress indicators can be incredibly powerful, but they also create some minor confusion.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: This understanding is best to learn after you're fairly confident of your core Anneagram number.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about how wings can impact your core, and so can your lines of stress and growth.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: So when we look back to our growth and stress numbers, it can warn us that we are acting out in stress and it can give us the intrinsic tools for how to manage our stress better.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Some experts say the lines only go in one direction.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: One goes to stress and the other one goes to growth.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: But others, which I tend to agree with, believe it can go both ways.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, as you're doing the work of the aneogram, these are just tools which are best to understand you better.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually you can bring it into your relationships, but for now let's just think about you.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with an aneogram one.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: The lines of growth in stress are four and seven.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: This means when a one is stressed, they are more likely to adopt the behavior of the low side of a four and a low side of a seven.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: So a one might take on an unhealthy version of a a one, as we all know.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a one, you know what the unhealthy side is, or where you need to grow, but it also can take on the melancholy of a four or the strong desire to run away or busy themselves to avoid the stressful situation as a seven might naturally do.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: But as a one grows and experiences greater freedom, they might find themselves growing in the creative, introspective nature that a four might naturally be, and then find themselves becoming more flexible and spontaneous, looking for ways to celebrate and have fun as a seven would be.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is just one answer to the question.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I realize I might need a whole episode to cover all of this.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only gonna spend one more week answering this question and answer for an anneagram too.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if you know your anneagram number and you desire more specifics about your lines of stress and growth, get the chart I've created for you and then you can shoot me a quick email back with your number and a sentence that says something like, give me more info, and then I will write you out an explanation just like the one I've shared personally for you.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can also send us a direct message on Instagram at Simply Wholehearted or even on my personal account, Amy R Wicks, and I will do my best to respond within 24 hours.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, only one more episode left in this season, and then we'll be dropping in your earbuds the day before Thanksgiving with our first episode of the holiday season.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, besides disturbing music from the lovely Christy Knuckles to open and close our show, we have three different guests sharing their Advent practices and helps.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: The first one will be Russ Ramsey, and then we will have Laura Ritchie about doing Advent with your kids, and Holy Yoga instructor Caroline Williams with special Advent tips and an Advent practice that you'll want to try out for yourself.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: We are loving that you're sharing our guests and our episodes with your friends and family.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Continue to invite them along for our special Advent season, and as we begin again in 2019 with more amazing inspiration.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: So until next week, join us on the socials as we continue on our journey to living simply, wholehearted.