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Islam and Christianity: Practical Differences · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Centrally speaking, it's the central strength of the church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology of the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Our website is www.cstfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Our topic today is Islam and Christianity, practical differences.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we're very fortunate to have Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Andrew Brunston with us to discuss this.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Andrew received his PhD in New Testament at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where he and I met many years ago.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: He and his wife Nareen started churches and trained Christians and aided refugees for 23 years in Turkey, and land with many Muslims.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: So he's known Muslims through that experience.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: But then he was imprisoned for a couple of those years because of his testimony for Jesus Christ.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: And in that time, he was in a prison cell with Muslims who were still practicing their faith.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: So Andrew's had um close up um uh contact uh with Muslims uh and their practical differences.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: He's the author of God's Hostage, a true story of persecution, imprisonment, and perseverance.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: And we're very glad, Andrew, to have you here at Centrally Speaking today.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the show.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh when did Islam and uh Christianity begin?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually wanted to the first just explain what my approach has been over the years.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is that before before I went to Turkey, uh, I took a few Islamic courses at the Zwamer Institute in uh California, and I forgot almost all of that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so I don't uh remember that much of about formal Islam, you could say.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so when I talk about Islam, it'll be just from my experience of of living among Muslims, what I observed, uh, rather than the details of history and theology, which people can very easily look that up online.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So this is more my lived experience of Islam.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And another thing is I decided early on, uh, I was thinking about PhD work and I thought I can study Islamics or I can study New Testament, study Bible.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I I went back and forth and I finally decided I think I really want, if I'm gonna spend years studying, I want to study what I believe is true and really focus on that, get to know the truth very well.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided to go into uh into the PhD work in uh New Testament, which is where I met you, Drake, of course.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: You were ahead of me and uh gave me some advice early on as I was starting my studies.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and with uh with Muslims, so we were in Turkey for many years, involved in starting churches, and most Turks are almost all of them are Muslim, and most of them have never met a Christian.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh their view of Christianity uh is uh very uh twisted, I would say, because there are a lot of misconceptions about Christianity, and also uh there's the idea that anybody who is from the West is a Christian, you know, all Germans are Christian, all Americans are Christian, Hollywood is what Christians are like, and what they think about uh Christians is often what they get from from movies or or videos.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, someone's wearing a cross, they're Christian.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I talked to many Muslims over the years, and I didn't talk about the Quran, I didn't talk about Muhammad, I try to avoid those.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I rather focused on the things that I believe, focus on the claims of the Bible.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't become involved in arguments.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: If someone had sincere questions about the Bible, I'd sit and talk with them for hours, no problem.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want to answer those questions.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: If I think that they're just trying to argue, then I would uh avoid, because then we're not going to have a good conclusion.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tried very much to stay away from arguments about Islam or the Quran because those end up being very sensitive as well.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say to my Muslim friends is, you know, the Quran is your holy book, and uh Muhammad is your prophet.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And because they're important to you, because you respect them, uh, then I also want to show respect.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I am a follower of Jesus, of Jesus Christ, and I have to accept the authority of the Bible.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my authoritative book.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh also when I was in prison, I spent a couple of years in prison uh for my faith in Turkey.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: I gladly presented the truth of the Bible, but I stay away from Islam.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Although those uh two years in prison, all of my Salomoites were very strong Muslims.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I had seen Islam before for years, uh, with people who came to our church, people who came out of Islam and became followers of Jesus Christ.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but this I got a really close, close-up experience as I was immersed.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: For example, I was in a cell for about eight months.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a cell that was built for eight people, but there were about 23 of us in there, and it was 24-7.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we never left the cell.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the other 22 people were all very strong Muslims.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was the only Christian, and so I was deeply immersed in their practice.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I just got an I got a good exposure uh to what uh Islam is as it's practiced in daily life.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That just gives some background.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So now let's go back to what you had asked.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: And that's fine.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I think our our listeners ought to know that we're not looking at this academically.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: We're just you have an extensive experience of life on life uh with those uh who are from uh um the Islamic faith, those who are Muslim.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so we're very interested in your opinion.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: So now back to just some basic comparisons.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh, when did Islam and Christianity begin?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: What's the difference in the starting points of the uh when these religions began?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So in a sense, they make similar claims because you know, it's as a Christian, I don't think that my faith, uh, you could say my religion started uh in you know zero uh AD, you know, when Jesus comes and with with his crucifixion, that that's the beginning of it's in a sense, it's the beginning of Christianity, but it goes much further back because all of the uh Old Testament history is all leading up to the coming of Jesus.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we see that as part of our history as well, all of the Old Testament, going back to Adam and then through Abraham and David.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's all I consider it my history as well.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh we believe that it goes all the way back to creation, that this is the revelation of God throughout history that centered on Jesus.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Everything before Jesus was focused on preparing for the coming of the Christ, and everything after him is kind of living in the consequences, the results of the cross, you could say.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Islam, it officially starts in the 600s or early 600s, uh, with Muhammad in the Arabian Peninsula, and uh the claim is that he's visited by the angel Gabriel, who begins to give him revelation.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so uh after that it begins to expand very quickly.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: What I wanted to point out, and uh Islam it has some similarities to Christianity in that uh it is uh monotheistic.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: It says there's one God, there's one creator, you know, who's all powerful.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the claim that uh Islam has is that it's a continuation of Judaism and Christianity, actually.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: They don't they don't think of Islam.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: We look at Islam and say, well, here's when it started when Muhammad received his his revelations in in uh I think at 610.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the year 610 is is when he had his first revelation.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But most Muslims do not think of Islam as being a religion that started in the year 610.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they see it as a correction to Judaism and Christianity.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so they they believe that Islam was in complete agreement with Judaism um and Christianity, uh, but that it was having to, God had to bring this revelation through Muhammad because Judaism was corrupted.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: After that, God, so you have the initial uh Torah, you know, the the uh books of Moses that were given that were that were right and perfect and good from God, and then they were corrupted.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So God sent more scriptures, he sent the Psalms, what they call the Zabur, and that corrected what came before it because people had changed it, and then along comes Jesus, he has to correct what came before because uh it was a complete revelation, you know, it was completely uh truthful, but the people corrupted it, so then comes the Injil, which is the New Testament, and that was corrupted, and so here comes the final revelation, which is the Quran through Muhammad.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh they would say there's a continuity between all of those, and when we point out the differences, what they would say is, well, this is because yours was changed.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the very typical thing is I pull out the Bible and say, Well, let's look at what the Bible says.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, but the Bible was changed, and therefore you no longer have the original, you have a corrupted version, and so they look at uh the prophets, all of the ones that you know people listening to this would recognize, like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, they're all prophets of Islam, and so Islam accepts all of them as prophets uh in that continuity with Islam.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is also a prophet, he's a prophet of Islam, and so we say, well, Islam started in 610, that was the first revelation.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: They would say, no, actually, it makes a claim similar to what I made early on.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I say, my faith goes all the way back to the creation of the world, and you know, there's a continuity, and a Muslim would say they make the same claim is actually going back to Adam, everyone was a Muslim.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Those teachings were corrupted, and now Islam came along with the Prophet Muhammad and his revelation to correct all of the corruption that came in to the truth.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why people can now, of course, we we know that the Bible has not been changed, quite apart from it being a matter of faith.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of extensive textual evidence for this for continuity.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: My experience is Muslims will often say, I love Jesus.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I say, wait, you know, how is this possible?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, they they'll say many of them will say, I love Jesus.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh some people, Westerners, can think, yeah, they're they're actually very close to you know the same beliefs that I have.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, actually, they love Jesus as one of the prophets of Islam, but do they accept him as presented in the Bible?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes I would say, Well, you say that you love Jesus, why don't you read his words?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because here they are in the gospel, and sometimes they will read them, and if they start reading them, we believe there's a power in the in the gospel that can touch them.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but in prison, none of the men in my cell, there was one exception, none of them wanted to even touch the Bible.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were a little afraid of it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when you look at the Bible and the Quran, there there are some similar stories.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there were uh Jewish communities uh in the Arabian Peninsula that uh that uh Muhammad would have been exposed to.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: There were also Christian groups uh in the area, some of them heretical groups actually.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you see that there are uh, of course, Islam claims that every everything in the Quran was direct revelation through uh from God through uh you know the angel Gabriel brought this revelation.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we see um there are stories, for example, uh you hear about many of the old testament prophets in the Quran, and there are some similar stories like uh Abraham is going to sacrifice his son, but then you see some of the changes come in.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we say it's Isaac, and uh Islam says it's Ishmael, for example.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some similar uh subjects and historical figures, but once you start looking at them more closely, you see that they're the the stories are are somewhat different in their details.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so people can look at Islam and say, well, you know, they believe in you know a creator God who's all powerful, all good, all merciful, all of these different things that we would say are true, we also believe about God.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then there are some of those similarities saying, Oh, we honor the prophets, uh uh that that we honor as well from the Bible.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so but if you you look at the the things that are different and they're fundamental, so on the surface, there are there are some similarities, but then you look at uh some differences that are foundational.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so Christians and Muslims, as I said, believe in one God, creator, all powerful.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what you want to do when you evaluate any religion other than Christianity or any belief system, I think the easiest thing to do is look closely to what they say about Jesus.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Islam teaches that Jesus, they honor Jesus as a great prophet, a very great prophet.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that can seem, oh, that's pretty close.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: But then they say Jesus was not the Son of God, he did not die on the cross, someone else took his place, he appeared to be like like Jesus, but it was not Jesus, someone took his place because God was not going to allow a prophet to die in that way.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't die on the cross, and Jesus does not pay for anyone's sin.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if he did not die on the cross, then he did not rise from the dead.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's no resurrection in that way.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it denies the core of the Bible.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everything in the Old Testament is preparing for Jesus and the cross, and everything after the cross is explaining the results of the cross.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Islam, however much overlap it has with Christianity, the fundamental, the foundation of Christianity, which has everything to do with Jesus, is denied.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: You had used the words uh corrupted uh uh earlier.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm curious what uh what you would think about uh would Christianity consider Judaism corrupted?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that Christianity looks at Judaism that way.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because for I'll speak for myself.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: When I look at the Old Testament, I say it's completely true.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh everything in it is revealed from God and it is true.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's incomplete because you know we have uh everything that it reveals about God is true, but it doesn't give a complete revelation of God because there's when we see Jesus, uh he brings a much clearer revelation and fuller revelation of God.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not that that is complete either, because we're still limited in what we we can understand, but we would say that all of you know the uh the prophets, the the psalms, the the Torah, you know, the the old testament is revelation.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is true.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus comes and fulfills it and expands.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we wouldn't reject it.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at the practice of Judaism today, we would say, well, it's it's a lot of it is true, but it's incomplete.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are they saying true things?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is this acceptable in the sense that it is going to win them salvation?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would say no, uh, because until you come to Jesus, you only know the Father in a limited way.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd say the same thing about Islam.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much that is said about God that is true.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we believe there's one God, one God who created the world, who's omnipresent, all powerful.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: But until you come to Jesus to understand the Father, then your revelation is going to be limited.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Incomplete is different than corrupted.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um thinking of uh your doctoral dissertation that you did on Psalm 118 and uh another procession account before Holy Week.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think it was in the Gospel of John, correct?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah, yeah, but that's um pointing to uh something that was in the past but now being fulfilled in the uh in the present of that being Jesus' perception.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's a different way of looking at uh Judaism in the Old Testament than saying that it's uh corruption, correct?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, it comes into the way that people practice um daily life devotions.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just wondering if we could talk a little bit about the ways that um those who are Muslims practice the faith.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um thinking maybe of holy days, uh thinking about the daily devotions.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um what's it like uh in Turkey or what's it like uh uh in the Muslim world to be practicing uh the uh the uh Islamic faith on a regular basis?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh one thing to say is that uh Muslims are just like us in many ways, and that many Muslims are nominal.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: In Islam, you're born into the religion.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you're born into a Muslim family, you are Muslim.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily something you have to choose for yourself uh uh when you get to a certain age.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're brought up in that and you are considered a Muslim just by birth.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are many Muslims who are nominal uh in the way that many in the West are nominal Christians.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a Christian culture around them, but there it's not deeply personal to them.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh many Muslims uh pray only occasionally.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, some of them will uh go to the Friday prayers, which is the main event of the week.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And uh some of them during the month of fasting, I'm sure we'll talk about that a bit more, but they may start out fasting.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: There was a saying in Turkish we call them Ramadan Muslims, you know, people who were Muslims during the period of fasting when everybody is uh expressing their devotion, showing very much uh, you know, the whole community is involved.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then they it's kind of like uh you could call them Easter Christians, or you know, people who will show up at church on Easter or Christmas.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: There are many people who are like that, where it's just a nominal practice.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then there are others who are very, very devoted, who are very committed.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and this will find expression especially in their prayers.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the prayer regime that they follow is the backbone of Islam, and uh they are expected to pray five times a day.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there are specific time periods within which you uh want to do those prayers.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not at a specific time that you have to do them, uh, but it's there's there are sections of the day, and you have to get it done during that section, or you've missed it, and you can make it up.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, you uh those who are devoted uh to the practice of Islam will live their life around this.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we would have people come, you know, visit visiting our home, and then they would ask if they could excuse themselves to a different room because you know they had to get that prayer in uh during you know, during that period.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: They structure their some of them who are very devout structure their lives around that.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's five times a day praying.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: You people have seen it, you know, they stand, they they bow, they get on their knees, prostrate themselves, and there's a routine that they follow five times a day, and they're expected to do this throughout their lives.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if they've missed it, some of them will do makeup sessions because it's this is kind of the the core.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and on Fridays, uh, that's the day that they will in the afternoon prayer, uh, they will try to go to a mosque and uh the community comes together, there will uh be a sermon on that day.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's kind of like the high, the the holy day would be on Friday.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Then they have other other uh religious holidays.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: They have the main one is the month of uh Ramadan, as you would say in English.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: In Turkish, it was Ramazan, and uh it's 30 days of fasting.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the way the fasting is done is uh during the daylight hours, you do not eat or drink.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or have any sexual relations or things like that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so from whenever the sun is considered to be starting to rise until it goes down, and you can look up the times exactly for every day, what that would be, then you avoid the things I just mentioned.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is that they will uh tend to eat and drink at night, get up early and eat and drink.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it seems to be a time of fasting, but it seems to be somewhat celebratory, and that uh people will often the big meal in the evening when they do iftaj is called, then they will uh come together with friends, they'll have a feast when they break the fast.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so actually, I think many people gain weight during Ramadan.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it's a different kind of fasting than in the circles I'm used to.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people tend to fast for like a 24-hour period.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: This would be only fasting during daylight.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: For the 30 days of Ramadan, when they do this, it tends to people tend to be very devout.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's there's more attention paid to their faith.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in prison, there were other times that people would fast.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when people fast, they tend to stay up during the night and then try to sleep during the day.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Since they can't eat or drink, then they'll just sleep and stay up at night.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we had this in in in my cell in prison.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I experienced two Ramadans in prison.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: But apart from that, people uh, when they're wanting to gain favor with God, uh, there's this concept of in Turkish is called Sebab, where you are like it's works, you could say.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're building up favor, building up works that will make God be more inclined to hear you and to answer you.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: In prison, they were all desperate to get out, and the way they thought they'd get out is by leaning in more heavily to Islamic practice.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so everyone was very, you know, intent on doing the five prayers, uh, but increasing this beyond that with the uh chanting of the Quran.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: The Quran is in Arabic, but uh in most and in Turkey we speak Turkish.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people don't know Arabic, but uh the those who are more serious will learn to read the Arabic script.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they don't know what they're saying, but they're able to just pronounce the words, read them.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing in Judaism, uh, at least in the States.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Many young Jewish boys will take a Hebrew class and they don't learn Hebrew, but they learn the alphabet, and so they're able to pronounce and just read a section for their bar mitzvah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone in my cell had learned to read through the Arabic and they will sing through it, they'll chant it, they'll they would read certain, they'd say some holy man said that if you read this, uh, you know, 20,000 times, if you repeat this chapter, then you'll get out of prison.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: So something like that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also extra fasting they'll they'll do, and so people would fast during the day and then be up most of the night.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: And they pray towards Mecca, even in the cell, correct?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, uh, they do.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was I was thinking about this is that you know, Jews in the diaspora face Jerusalem when they prayed, and many early Christians prayed toward Jerusalem, and Muslims face Mecca.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's the holy city where uh where Islam started, and then the Kaaba is uh known as the house of God, is at the center of the most important mosque, and so Muslims around the world will face toward uh Mecca.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I'm I'm just thinking that Jews and Christians used to do that as well, but they were focused on Jerusalem.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: How about some of the other main practices of Islam?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, could you say a word about the five pillars of Islam?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, by the way, we've been talking about the practice of Islam.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things they do is, you know, they say God has 99 names.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you add them up from the different lists, it's more than that, but you know, they would repeat these names and sometimes just sing through these names.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the things I noticed is I had a lot of questions for God.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I had I went through a real period of doubt, doubting when I was in, especially my first year, I was very broken, and my theology kind of got broken too.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the I expected certain things from God that he didn't do, and I went into a crisis with him.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I have all these questions, and sometimes the only people I could talk to, I didn't have any other Christian around.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: The only Christian I talked to during my two years in prison was my wife when I was allowed to have a visit from her.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm having these questions and doubts, and who do I talk to?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's no other Christian to correct me.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I talk to my Muslim cellmates, and I just uh realized I was the only one asking questions.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because uh their view as I saw it in practice is you know, God uh determines my fate.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, whatever uh other people are doing, they may be sinful and wrong and they're persecuting me or I'm falsely in prison or something like that.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, God is in control, He is has decreed this, and when He determines that is when I will get out.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: So almost like a fatalism.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the idea that you would question God, they would not dare to question.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas for me, I I did have questions of God.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one difference I see in the Bible is that God somehow permits us to ask questions and to have doubts, and He He deals with us at that level.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you see many examples in the Bible of people asking questions, and we don't want our questions to come between us and God, but it is something that you see happen in the Bible, whereas in Islam I just did not see that.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is my fate, this is decreed by God, and He's gonna determine you know what happens to me.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's a that's a very practical difference.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, when uh when someone's in the faith and can question rather than uh not question.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_04: Wouldn't you agree?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, yes.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And some of it is, you know, relationship.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I had questions is because God says he's my father and he he has a tender love for me.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: He also and you know describes himself as a as a husband who, you know, and I'm the object of his affection, you know, I'm the bride.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh the the way that God is described in a very personal, loving, close relationship, I expect more from that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have a relationship with a very personal, personal God.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, some of that is because of how he reveals himself in Jesus is what is God like?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is his character like?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: How does how do what are the emotions of God?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the Father, heavenly father can seem very distant.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have we don't see him.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then Jesus says, hey, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so how did Jesus treat people here?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: How did he treat children?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he honored women, he, you know, uh uh was was kind.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you see all all the the character of Jesus, the emotions of Jesus, how Jesus interacted with people, and we can project that onto the father because Jesus said, the father's exactly, or rather, he says, I'm exactly like the father.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you see me doing, that's exactly what the father does.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: The way that I treat people with love and compassion, that's exactly what the father does.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have kind of a concrete example of what God is like.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very personal.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's more understandable when in a close relationship, if we don't understand why God is not intervening, why you know why have why hasn't he helped me?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why has he let this hard thing happen to me?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: We react with a bit of, hey, what what's going on?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it leads to questions.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in Islam, now I saw many Muslims who who have a love relationship with God, actually, who love God, and in a way uh they treat Muhammad the way that we would treat Jesus.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: They have celebrations of love, and in prison sometimes they had celebrations of love for the prophet.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I still think that as much as I saw that there was, you know, a genuine love for God, that what we experience or expect is at a different level uh relationally.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think for many of my friends, God was still kind of distant.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: You don't question him, you just do your prayers and you do what he has commanded, and that's the level it's at.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas we're we're, I think there's more of a focus in in Christianity on the very loving, close relationship.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: Some are saying in the West uh that uh religions are more of an expression of culture and that really different uh religions are all uh different ways of approaching uh one God, as some have said, we're all going up uh the same mountain towards the same place.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think from your interaction that you've had with uh Muslims in uh Turkey and other places, uh, that they would say that uh that's a that's a possible idea, or would they completely disagree with it?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some of our Muslim friends would say that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some of them who care for us, you know, they're our friends.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so they want to reassure us that we're not gonna go to hell.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, uh, or they're just being polite, perhaps.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so they would say, well, you know, different paths here, but we all believe in one God.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the important thing is that we love people.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Love is important.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's if you're just loving, that's that's what really matters.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: We'll we'll go to the same place.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the majority of Muslims do not think that way.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the majority believe Islam is absolutely true.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not a Muslim, then you are uh in trouble.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think there's something similar in Christianity, uh, as you mentioned at the very beginning of this question.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would call it moralistic therapeutic deism, is some uh a phrase that people have used, that kind of describes the belief system uh in practice of most people in the millennial uh generation and in Gen Z.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it basically says God exists, uh, He created and ordered the world, and God wants people to be good, He wants them to be nice and fair to each other.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: The Bible teaches that, but the other world religions teach that too.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, all of the religions say, you know, God wants you to be good and nice.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the central goal of life is to be happy, to feel good about yourself.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really need to be too involved with God except when there's a problem, and then you know, you you ask him for help.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And good people go to heaven when they die.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the majority of Christians from the millennial generation down, including in many evangelical churches and in conservative churches, even I would say, many functionally have this kind of belief system.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: God, God wants me to be good, he wants me to be happy, and if I'm good, I'll go to heaven, and so will everyone else is good.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I already mentioned similarities between the two, you know, monotheistic, but that at the core, the core claims are incompatible, especially on the person of Jesus.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: So someone could say, hey, Islam and Christianity are both wrong, but you can't say that they're both right because of the incompatibility.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Someone could say they're both wrong, but they you could not logically argue that both are right.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: As a Christian, you know, I have many Muslim friends, I love them, but I'd also say, you know, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: No one comes to the Father except by me.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so there's only one way that you can actually have salvation.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And according to the Bible, according to what Jesus Himself said, He is the only way to this.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say, you know, this isn't the way a prophet speaks.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: A prophet shows people the way.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: He says, That's the way.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what a prophet does.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus didn't come to point out the way, he said, I am the way.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a much higher claim.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Many of my Muslim friends, there's a lot of uncertainty about what's going to happen to them after they die.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they believe that uh they're gonna be weighed, you know, and they're their good deeds against their bad ones.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if your good deeds outweigh your bad ones, then you know, God will accept you if you're a Muslim.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: But who knows what's really gonna happen?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there is going to be suffering and burning.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And even if God accepts you, you may still go through some, you know, there's this idea in in uh the practice of Islam.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people I talk to that you're going to have to cross over this burning chasm on a sword.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's very narrow, obviously.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's the width of a sword, and you're going to have to cross this to get across.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's a very scary thing.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when uh go to Muslim funerals, they would bring water and put water next to the grave.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: The idea of these people are in a hot place now.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they may eventually be saved, but uh in the meantime, they may have to go through a lot of suffering.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one reason why, you know, when you get into some of the uh people who are promised that if they die in battle, uh, as jihadis, you know, that they will be immediately go to paradise.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a great attraction.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're saying you can have surgeon if you die in battle for Islam, then you know, you you go direct to paradise.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: But most people, this is why there's such an emphasis on what I call Sebab, doing good works, doing, you know, giving your alms, going to Mecca, going to doing all of your prayers, keeping the fast, you know, all of those things that are required, because there's this fear, is it gonna be enough?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: But in the end, God determines and you don't really know.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of uncertainty of what's gonna happen.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what I would underline is the Bible tells me that I can be sure of my eternal destiny.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to wonder uh and be in doubt.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I come to Jesus and embrace him, then he will guarantee what's gonna happen to me.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_04: And despite these practical differences that we've seen and that you've shared about um faith between uh Muslims uh or differences between Muslims and Christians, you are finding that in uh the Muslim world today that uh some are finding uh the message of Jesus very appealing.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh can you explain why?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus, uh I think there's I think that is true.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's an attractiveness to to this uh that's different from simply an assent to propositions of truth.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you just line up the truth claims and say, well, this appeals to me, this sounds logical.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what's changing hearts.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is a reality to Jesus, to encounter with him uh that transforms lives.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something that we talk about.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus talked about being born again.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: There is actually something that happens that brings us to life.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a great deal of devotion in an in another religion.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are people who are very devoted, who sacrifice themselves, who have much more discipline than the majority of Christians do.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Most Muslims are more who are devoted are more disciplined in their practice of faith than Christians are.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there is uh something to encountering Jesus that transforms the heart.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that people are actually finding life in him.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that happens is that at least in Turkey, and I believe this is true in Muslim uh Muslim circles that I've heard about, but in Turkey, almost every Turk who I met who had come out of Islam and turned to Jesus Christ had experienced a dream where a supernatural dream.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have dreams every night, they're not from God, they're from my turmoil in my heart or wherever, but uh a supernatural dream from God where where they see Jesus or an angel appears to them and uh says, read the Bible or go to the people of the book or go to this place that has a cross on it or something, they'll have a dream that starts them on their uh asking questions and seeking, or after they've already started seeking, some you know have had curiosity and have started to ask questions, then they'll have a dream that confirms that they're on the right path.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, almost every Turk I met who became a believer, a follower of Jesus Christ, had that as part of their experience.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's Jesus interrupting them and getting their attention.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things, just for your listeners, you know, we think, how do we, how can we reach Muslims?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're very hard to reach.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, many of them are very, very committed to their belief system.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: They believe that that it is truth and that it should, that the God's plan for the world, Allah's plan for the world, is that the entire world will submit to Islam and will come under Sharia law.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so the majority of Muslims, some Muslims don't want to live under Sharia law, but a great percentage of them believe this is the right thing.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Sharia is all-encompassing, it's not democratic, uh, it's theocratic, it's God has his law, and we're going to make sure everyone lives according to these standards.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and under that system, non-Muslims do not have the same standings, they do not have the same rights or protections as a Muslim does.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So often uh there is persecution.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: When people talk about persecution, the reality is that 80% or so of the people who are persecuted in the world for their faith are Christians.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so the reality is that Christians in a Muslim-majority culture tend to have restrictions and it's difficult for them.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do we reach Muslims?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one very easy practical thing is offer to pray for them.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Noreen and I did this throughout the years.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think we could count on two hands the number of times we were turned down over 25 years, where you know, if we're with a Muslim, we say, Hey, can we pray for you?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do you need prayer for?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is your family okay?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Any sickness, any, you know, issue, you know, concerns you have.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh then we say, Well, I want to pray for you right now.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Many of them were were almost all of them will accept prayer.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a way to show love, to show uh compassion, to show an interest in their lives.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And apart from that, God often does something with the prayer, you know, He He answers that prayer.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I always say, God, answer this prayer in a way that will let them know that it's you and that you care about them, that you love them.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an easy thing to do, is just say, hey, can I pray for you?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a very good message uh for uh those uh not only in the uh Muslim world, but uh uh uh even out and beyond how we can pray for them.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for taking the time to uh talk about some practical differences between uh Islam and Christianity and so forth, uh Andrew.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: We certainly wish you all the best in the work that you're doing.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Drake.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Bless you.