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The big baby bust: What happened to Australia’s middle child? · The Morning Edition

0:04
S1: The fertility rate in Australia is at a record low
0:07
S1: and there is judgment all around. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris
0:12
S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age
0:15
S1: and the Sydney Morning Herald today, senior journalist Matt Wade
0:19
S1: and reporter Bronte Gosling on what our exclusive polling tells
0:23
S1: us about the global population plunge that we're all inching towards.
0:28
S1: What challenges it will throw at us, and why the
0:30
S1: demise of the third child may not be a great thing.
0:34
S1: It's Monday, June 8th. Welcome Matt and Bronte to the podcast.
0:40
S2: Thank you very much for having us.
0:42
S3: Happy to be here.
0:43
S4: Matt. I'm just going to start with you because you've
0:45
S4: been writing about demography in one way or another for
0:48
S4: about 25 years. So just real quick, like, why is
0:51
S4: it important to have this conversation now?
0:54
S2: Well, I think, you know, obviously population is a massive
0:58
S2: topic for any country, especially for Australia. We're debating it
1:00
S2: all the time through issues like migration and so forth.
1:03
S2: But underpinning that question is also this issue of the
1:07
S2: fertility rate. That's how many babies are being born in
1:10
S2: the country. And there's no doubt that it's a very
1:13
S2: personal decision. You know, there's such a huge back story
1:17
S2: to just about any child who's born. But by the
1:20
S2: same token, those decisions that are made by families about
1:24
S2: how many kids they'll have also has far reaching implications
1:27
S2: for the whole economy. Because, of course, every baby born
1:31
S2: is a future worker and a future taxpayer. So the
1:34
S2: fewer babies we have, if that's actually what's happening, it
1:37
S2: does have implications for the whole economy and the society
1:41
S2: over time.
1:42
S4: There's one phenomenon that this project that you've been engaged with,
1:45
S4: and so is Bronte points to which I've got to
1:48
S4: be honest, I had never once thought of, even though
1:50
S4: I myself have reported on dropping fertility rates many years ago.
1:54
S1: And that is the data points to the demise of
1:57
S1: the middle child. So, Matt, are they nearly gone?
2:01
S2: Well, it's true that there's fewer, fewer and fewer. One
2:04
S2: of the things we did for this series is we
2:06
S2: did some opinion polling, which was a really interesting experience,
2:11
S2: asking the questions and then getting the data back. And
2:13
S2: one of the striking findings was that we we asked
2:17
S2: people under 45 either about their experience having children or
2:22
S2: their intentions to have them turned out only 9% in
2:26
S2: that cohort. That's everyone age under 45 had three or
2:30
S2: more children. Whereas if you look at over 45, it's
2:33
S2: more like 25%. So you can see there there's a
2:37
S2: massive trend and it's borne out by other data as well,
2:40
S2: that there's this shrinking cohort of families which have middle children, i.e.
2:46
S2: having three or more. And so that's struck up a
2:48
S2: conversation with our team who is working on the series.
2:52
S2: You know, what does that mean for Australia? You know,
2:54
S2: our middle child children vital for, you know, our society.
2:58
S2: Do they have special skills that we might be missing
3:00
S2: out on. So it really did trigger some interesting thoughts
3:03
S2: and reflections. And it kind of also drives at how
3:08
S2: these changes in the fertility rate do have real world
3:12
S2: implications for the nature of families, the structure of families
3:16
S2: and so forth, which are can be, I think, pretty
3:18
S2: far reaching.
3:19
S1: Okay. This is so interesting to me because often in
3:23
S1: popular culture, we hear about the middle child and it's
3:25
S1: often viewed negatively, like, oh, the middle child when they're
3:28
S1: never satisfied. And I know this is going to be anecdotal,
3:31
S1: I think what you're speaking about, but what can you
3:33
S1: tell me about what might be lost in our society
3:37
S1: if the middle child becomes something of an endangered species?
3:40
S1: Because you and I spoke about this before we started recording,
3:43
S1: and you had some funny anecdotes about what people think
3:45
S1: is really special about the middle child.
3:47
S2: Well, all I can go on is sort of I'm
3:49
S2: not a middle child. I'm actually an oldest, but I
3:52
S2: have a sibling who's a middle child. And I guess
3:55
S2: those people who are middle children tell me that they're
3:59
S2: really good at negotiating because they've had to deal with
4:02
S2: older siblings and younger siblings, often negotiating. I guess in
4:06
S2: bigger families, too. Not just three, but 4 or 5
4:08
S2: or six or whatever. That provides unique skills. And they
4:12
S2: claim those middle children that that's something that is valuable
4:16
S2: for them and for perhaps society. And so this is
4:20
S2: just one of the many themes that have sort of
4:22
S2: emerged as we've delved into this topic.
4:25
S1: Well, Bronte, I want to bring you in here because
4:27
S1: you interviewed a number of young women, but also some
4:30
S1: young men who do not want to have children at all.
4:34
S1: So can you just tell me what did they tell you?
4:36
S1: And did anything that they say surprise you?
4:39
S3: I did speak with a lot of people about this
4:41
S3: who have chosen not to have children, and a lot
4:44
S3: of it, the discussions I had were actually off the record,
4:47
S3: because many of them did not want to put their
4:50
S3: face or their name to their personal choice in public,
4:54
S3: because they had experienced so much backlash. Obviously, some of
4:59
S3: the men who I spoke with have experienced backlash of
5:02
S3: their own, one in particular who lives in Brisbane. He
5:07
S3: said that his traditional family didn't. He kept quiet about
5:11
S3: his decision to be child free for about 20 years
5:13
S3: because he didn't want to deal with the criticism, and
5:15
S3: then eventually became more open about it. And he's no
5:18
S3: longer in contact with his family because they don't agree
5:22
S3: with his lifestyle. So there definitely is a lot of
5:25
S3: backlash for people of all genders who choose not to
5:28
S3: have children. Overwhelmingly, I did find that women who don't
5:32
S3: have children have become a bit of a lightning rod
5:34
S3: for this conversation. Our exclusive polling by the Resolve Political Monitor,
5:39
S3: we did ask this question, and we found more than 20%
5:44
S3: of women and men aged 18 to 44. They have
5:48
S3: chosen not to have children. Of course, they may change
5:52
S3: their minds, but overwhelmingly every person I spoke with who
5:55
S3: is childfree by choice, they emphasised to me that they
5:57
S3: will not be changing their minds. They have really heard
6:00
S3: every counterargument that you'll regret it. You'll change your mind.
6:03
S3: You are so selfish. That, in particular, struck a chord
6:07
S3: with a 36 year old comedian and writer, Bianca Izmaylovsky.
6:11
S3: She's from Melbourne, and she said that she spent 40
6:15
S3: minutes sitting at a dinner table being berated, basically for
6:19
S3: her choice not to have children. An interesting point that
6:22
S3: I found was that her partner, who is a man,
6:26
S3: and he also then plays a part in being in
6:29
S3: their childfree by choice lifestyle because he too is childfree
6:32
S3: by choice. Bianca's table mates didn't really clock that that
6:36
S3: was his choice as well, and Bianca told me that
6:38
S3: he was getting quite angry and defensive of their shared lifestyle,
6:41
S3: but it was still Bianca that was being singled out
6:44
S3: at this table for being selfish. And a key argument
6:48
S3: for the selfishness criticism is that I don't even know,
6:53
S3: like it's the will you not populate the world and
6:56
S3: further our society? But Bianca's counter-argument to that was, don't
7:00
S3: you think it would be worse if I don't want
7:03
S3: to be a mother and I have children, and my
7:05
S3: children have to live with me, knowing that I don't
7:07
S3: want to be a mother. Reasons for being child free
7:10
S3: by choice vary. Some people did cite climate and the
7:14
S3: environment and what's happening in the world to me. One
7:17
S3: of them was a Sydney couple who consider their pet
7:20
S3: to be their child. And a lot of people did mention,
7:24
S3: I guess, the inherent inequality of being a parent. I
7:28
S3: know that Bianca and another woman from Brisbane did speak
7:32
S3: with me about how they just couldn't get behind pregnancy,
7:35
S3: and it's just too risky. And a man can theoretically
7:39
S3: leave any time once a woman falls pregnant. But the
7:43
S3: woman is, she can't leave. She's stuck with it physically.
7:46
S3: I know that that's a can be quite a controversial topic,
7:49
S3: but that was one reason. But overwhelmingly it was an
7:53
S3: inherently personal choice. We see a lot of political discourse
7:56
S3: about this because of the worries about the economy. But
8:00
S3: every single person I spoke with told me that they
8:02
S3: just never felt like a parent, and they didn't want
8:06
S3: to have children. When they didn't feel like a parent,
8:09
S3: they didn't have that instinct or that urge.
8:12
S1: And Bronte. I've got one thing I really want to
8:14
S1: ask you just on hearing all of that, because you're
8:16
S1: in your 20s, I'm middle aged. And so hearing this,
8:20
S1: I think, okay, well, I grew up, of course, with
8:23
S1: hearing people around me get a lot of judgment if
8:25
S1: they were choosing not to have children. This argument that
8:27
S1: it was selfish. Are you surprised that that's still where
8:30
S1: we are?
8:31
S3: I think yes and no. I think it really depends
8:33
S3: on what side of the algorithm you're on. I'm obviously
8:36
S3: on more of a young woman side of TikTok, so
8:39
S3: I very much have been privy to these kind of
8:42
S3: discussions and discourse about the choice to have children and
8:45
S3: what it costs you as a young woman, but also
8:48
S3: what you gain importantly. But when I was researching for
8:51
S3: this story, I actually obviously went to social media and
8:55
S3: looked up the childfree by choice hashtags on Instagram and TikTok,
8:59
S3: and they're very populated with content both for and against
9:03
S3: the childfree by choice lifestyle. It's a cesspit on there.
9:06
S3: People get really emotional about this topic. Everyone has a
9:09
S3: story and a personal experience.
9:11
S1: But what are you being fed? On TikTok as a
9:13
S1: woman like you just mentioned, what are you being fed
9:15
S1: in terms of what the costs are to have a child?
9:17
S1: Is it sort of like the physical cost? Is it
9:19
S1: the economic cost? Is the emotional cost? Is it everything?
9:22
S3: I think it's all of the above, but overwhelmingly the
9:25
S3: sense of freedom, which was also the number one reason
9:27
S3: in our resolve, political monitor polling that people who said
9:31
S3: they did not want to have children, why they don't
9:33
S3: want to have children is because they value their freedom.
9:36
S3: And I think it's quite tropical right now because of
9:39
S3: how charged everything is. We've seen a rise in Pronatal ism,
9:42
S3: particularly with Tradwives on TikTok. We've also seen a rise in,
9:47
S3: I guess, what some would call radical feminist beliefs, like
9:50
S3: the South Korea's four B movement, which is boycotting men,
9:55
S3: basically babies. That definitely trended after Donald Trump won the election,
10:01
S3: and particularly because his vice president, JD Vance, made some
10:06
S3: inflammatory comments about childless cat ladies, which I believe both
10:10
S3: Jennifer Aniston and Taylor Swift rebutted heavily against.
10:13
S1: Saying they were proudly childless cat ladies, correct?
10:16
S3: Yeah.
10:17
S1: And Matt, this brings me to you because I want
10:19
S1: to ask you just how bad is our birth rate?
10:22
S1: Because we've known for years, right, that our fertility rate
10:24
S1: has been dropping. And yet six weeks ago, talking about
10:28
S1: Natalism there, we've got Elon Musk, of all people. I
10:30
S1: think he's got about 14 children himself. And he shared
10:33
S1: a video on the platform X documenting how low fertility
10:37
S1: rate is, and then writing, Australians are becoming an endangered species. Matt,
10:42
S1: are we becoming an endangered species?
10:44
S2: I wouldn't go that far, Sam. I mean, Australia's birth
10:48
S2: rate or sorry, fertility rate, kind of slightly different things.
10:51
S2: But our fertility rate, which measures the number of births
10:54
S2: expected per woman, has definitely fallen pretty steadily in the
11:00
S2: past 1015 years. As you said, it's been below that
11:05
S2: replacement rate. That's where there's this level of 2.1 children
11:09
S2: per woman. That means that the population is replenished, not
11:13
S2: including migration. Now, we've been way below that since the 1970s,
11:18
S2: basically since the introduction of the contraceptive pill. Now Australia's
11:22
S2: population has been growing thanks to migration. But it's still
11:25
S2: the case that this is a significant decline in the
11:30
S2: fertility rate. We're down to what, a rate of 1.48.
11:34
S2: And I guess the concern is that it has fallen
11:37
S2: away quite sharply, especially since Covid. But it has to
11:40
S2: be said straight away, though, that there's a lot of
11:43
S2: countries with a much lower fertility rates than Australia. So
11:47
S2: while we're pretty similar to many advanced Western countries and
11:52
S2: indeed some developing countries, there are many countries that have
11:55
S2: even lower birth rates or fertility rates in Australia.
11:58
S1: Okay, so two points. So this 1.48 fertility rate that
12:02
S1: we've got at the moment in Australia, that is a
12:04
S1: record low for us isn't it?
12:06
S2: Yeah, absolutely. It's a record low by some margin. And
12:09
S2: the latest data we have is for 2024. But it's
12:12
S2: everyone expelled. Most demographers expect that it is likely to
12:15
S2: fall below that perhaps to 1.42. And it'll be interesting
12:20
S2: to see what happens from here, whether this is a
12:23
S2: trend that sort of ameliorates and becomes sort of a
12:26
S2: new level, or whether it continues to fall.
12:29
S1: Matt, just super briefly, what are the factors? Is it
12:32
S1: anything unexpected as to why this has fallen so low,
12:34
S1: or is it essentially what we've always heard about, which
12:36
S1: is high cost of living, global warming, people worried about,
12:41
S1: you know, the wars and so forth, you know?
12:43
S2: Yeah, I think it's an incredibly complex story, but there's
12:46
S2: no doubt that cost, cost of living, cost of raising
12:50
S2: children is a big factor. I think housing in Australia,
12:54
S2: especially in our big cities in particular is a massive issue.
12:57
S2: I mean, it's very hard to have more than two
13:00
S2: kids in a cramped two bedroom unit in the middle
13:03
S2: of Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane. In some ways, that limits
13:07
S2: the decisions that people make in terms of how many
13:10
S2: children they might like to have, because they know that,
13:12
S2: say they've got two kids and they're considering a third,
13:15
S2: it might mean they have to, you know, upgrade to
13:18
S2: a much bigger house, get a new car or whatever.
13:20
S2: And I think housing is a massive factor. I did
13:23
S2: an interview with one young Melbourne woman who has one child,
13:27
S2: has a single child by choice. And it's ringing in
13:30
S2: my head that she said there is no right or
13:33
S2: wrong in family size. And I think that's a really
13:35
S2: important point to make. There are so many factors at work.
13:39
S2: There are a lot of constraints on young families, and
13:42
S2: so I think it's sort of people need to have
13:46
S2: the the scope and the freedom to make a choice
13:48
S2: for themselves. But I think from a policy point of view,
13:52
S2: there's a lot of clear evidence that it's a lot
13:54
S2: harder to have a child these days, and perhaps it
13:56
S2: was in the past. These things, like the high cost
13:59
S2: of housing and the cost of having children, are significant.
14:03
S2: And if there's one thing we could work on as
14:05
S2: a society, I think, is to be in a situation
14:08
S2: where allowing people to make the choice that they'd like
14:11
S2: and providing the resources for them to make that choice.
14:15
S2: That's really the takeaway I have out of this series.
14:23
S1: After the break.
14:25
S2: Later this century, the population of the world will peak
14:29
S2: and start to decline. And that's actually going to be
14:32
S2: a big change for the whole global environment.
14:42
S5: Well, Bronte.
14:43
S1: You have, I think, delved into some of the judgment
14:45
S1: side of things. And in particular, you spoke to a
14:48
S1: couple of very big families, right? So these are people
14:51
S1: who are choosing still against all odds, it seems, or
14:54
S1: simply against the trend to have a lot of children.
14:57
S1: Tell me about the mother of five boys you spoke to.
14:59
S1: Who gets told she's crazy for her decision? Because I
15:03
S1: was a bit surprised she agrees with them, right?
15:05
S3: Yeah, she definitely agrees, but I think it was said
15:07
S3: in a joking manner. No. Steph Powell and Mark Powell,
15:11
S3: they have five boys between the ages of three and
15:14
S3: 13 and Steph and Mark, but mainly Steph. Her reasoning
15:18
S3: was she just loves babies. And she even said to
15:20
S3: me on the phone before we went down to Batemans
15:22
S3: Bay to speak with them and observe their chaotic morning routine,
15:26
S3: she said, I would have more if they didn't grow
15:28
S3: up into surly teens. So it was really lovely spending
15:31
S3: time here with a family who just clearly love being
15:35
S3: a family, but there's definitely judgement that they face. She
15:39
S3: said that when she was pregnant with her three year
15:41
S3: old son Bodie, who's her youngest. People would make a
15:45
S3: lot of jokes about, oh, don't you own a TV?
15:48
S3: Or are you trying for a girl? Because obviously they
15:50
S3: have five boys. And Steph was emphatic. She said, no,
15:54
S3: we're not trying for a girl. Like, obviously a girl
15:57
S3: would be nice, but that's not why we're having kids,
15:59
S3: she says she. She laughs the comments off and she
16:01
S3: did make a remark to me, which I found really interesting.
16:04
S3: She said that I feel like if I had one child,
16:07
S3: if I had five kids, if I had no kids,
16:09
S3: I would get comments. So I might as well just
16:11
S3: do what I want, which I agree with. Interestingly, we
16:14
S3: had a family from Melbourne or just outside of Melbourne,
16:17
S3: Kylie and Damian, they have four children, two sets of
16:21
S3: boy girl twins. And so at one point Kylie was
16:24
S3: raising four toddlers under two and she said that the
16:28
S3: size of their pram was just massive. And so she'd
16:31
S3: go to the grocery store and she, we had a
16:33
S3: very long discussion about the logistics of going to a
16:36
S3: grocery store, she says. People would just stare at her
16:39
S3: and they wouldn't they wouldn't know whether she would see
16:41
S3: them freeze. They wouldn't know whether to kind of look
16:44
S3: at her or just part like the Red sea. So
16:48
S3: ultimately they would get out of her way. But I
16:51
S3: just found that the image of that very funny. Um,
16:54
S3: she says she has no regrets.
16:55
S1: That's that's absolutely incredible. Now, Matt, I want to help.
16:58
S1: I want you to help us zoom out, you know,
17:00
S1: to the larger picture, if you can, for a moment,
17:03
S1: because obviously we've spoken about all these individual decisions and
17:06
S1: judgment and desire and disappointment and so forth that go
17:09
S1: into this very personal decision to have a child. But
17:12
S1: you say that we are actually on the precipice of,
17:15
S1: you know, this massive downward trajectory in population globally. Really,
17:19
S1: this is in an unprecedented way. So give us this backstory.
17:22
S1: What made our global population boom? Like, where's that going
17:25
S1: to peak? Because it's soon. And just how much is
17:27
S1: it going to bottom out?
17:29
S2: It's a very good question. And I think, you know,
17:31
S2: there's a lot of debate. There's always debate about, you know,
17:33
S2: the global population story. Traditionally, there's been a lot of
17:37
S2: concern that we've got too many people and the population
17:39
S2: is getting too big. But definitely we're about that's about
17:42
S2: to change. If you look at the stats. In 1804,
17:46
S2: we that's when the world crossed the 1 billion mark.
17:49
S2: In 1960 it crossed 3 billion. We're now at about
17:53
S2: $8.3 billion, but it's about to start to turn later
17:58
S2: this century. The population of the world will will peak
18:02
S2: and start to decline. And that's actually going to be
18:05
S2: a big change for the whole global environment because that's
18:09
S2: not happened, you know, in like literally hundreds of years.
18:13
S2: So obviously that's having a different impact depending on the country.
18:18
S2: There are some countries that are already falling. I was
18:20
S2: looking at the stats. Japan's population actually peaked about 15
18:25
S2: years ago and is now 7 or 8 million lower
18:29
S2: than it was around 2010. That's just one example. There
18:32
S2: are many more. Predictions are that for South Korea, which
18:35
S2: has an especially low fertility rate and not much migration,
18:39
S2: the population of that country is likely to halve later
18:42
S2: this century, perhaps by the end of the century. So
18:46
S2: that's one of probably 20 or 30 countries, depending on
18:49
S2: the forecasts, that will see their populations halve by the
18:53
S2: end of the century on current trajectory, that's actually got
18:56
S2: a massive implication not just for paying for social services
19:00
S2: and roads and so forth, but for things like national
19:03
S2: security and funding the military. This is going to become
19:07
S2: a big challenge for some countries as we move forward.
19:11
S1: Well, tell me a bit about this, because before we
19:13
S1: started recording, you told me on this point, you said,
19:16
S1: unlike so many countries out there, Australia has what you
19:19
S1: called the secret sauce, which is a liberal immigration posture.
19:23
S1: So is that something that you hope that readers and
19:26
S1: listeners take out of this series, that all of these
19:28
S1: decisions go into having kids, but actually, immigration just might
19:32
S1: be our saving grace.
19:34
S2: Yeah. Well, the thing about Australia is we've always had
19:36
S2: a very we've been open to migrants. And that's been
19:39
S2: a long story for Australia for many decades, in fact,
19:42
S2: for over 100 years. If you want to look at
19:44
S2: it now, that's not normal for many countries. There are
19:48
S2: some like America, the United States and so forth, which
19:51
S2: also have had this migrant history, but this is actually
19:55
S2: going to stand us in good stead as fertility rates
19:58
S2: start to decline globally. If you think about it, the
20:01
S2: problem with a declining fertility rate is that you're working
20:05
S2: age population starts to shrink. And so it becomes very
20:09
S2: hard to raise revenue and find workers to do the
20:13
S2: jobs that are needed. Now, having a liberal migration policy,
20:16
S2: being open to migrants means that we're able to offset that,
20:20
S2: ameliorate the effects, because we're an attractive country to come
20:24
S2: and we can attract migrants. So it's a perspective on
20:28
S2: the migration debate that I think is often overlooked, but
20:31
S2: it's actually something that is a real advantage for Australia
20:35
S2: given these demographic trends.
20:38
S5: And Bronte, just to wrap up, I'd love to finish with.
20:40
S1: You and ask you, I guess, what messages do you
20:43
S1: wish that you were getting as a young woman in
20:45
S1: Australia who's reporting on this space? What messages do you
20:48
S1: wish you were getting from society, from our politicians? You
20:51
S1: know about having kids?
20:53
S3: Well, I don't want to sound all doom and gloom,
20:55
S3: and I don't want to end on a negative note,
20:57
S3: so I'll wrap it into a bit of a positive sandwich,
21:00
S3: I guess. I found that obviously, as I said before,
21:03
S3: people who choose to be child free, they've thought of
21:05
S3: every single scenario of what their life would look like
21:08
S3: if they did or they did not have children, and
21:10
S3: that's why they are so insistent on the fact that
21:13
S3: they're not going to change their minds. At the same time,
21:16
S3: we have seen a rise in single child families from
21:19
S3: people who wish that they had more than one child,
21:22
S3: but they just can't afford to have it, largely because
21:25
S3: if you're living in a city like Sydney, you need
21:27
S3: to have two incomes to service a mortgage, and that
21:30
S3: means you need to put your children in childcare. And obviously,
21:33
S3: as we know, the childcare system is in crisis. So
21:37
S3: what would help people who want to have more children
21:40
S3: would be obviously policies that address housing affordability and the
21:44
S3: childcare system. But I think a missing piece, and I
21:47
S3: think Matt looked at this when he was speaking about
21:50
S3: how it's a global issue, is for people who are
21:52
S3: on the fence about having children. I think what's overlooked
21:55
S3: is this sense of dread and a lack of hope
21:59
S3: when it comes to what's happening in the world. But
22:02
S3: like I said, I'm not going to end on a
22:04
S3: negative note. What I have learned from this series overwhelmingly is,
22:09
S3: I mean, from a practical standpoint, social cohesion is going
22:12
S3: to be more important than ever because we might need
22:14
S3: to rely on immigration to supplement our population and our economy.
22:18
S3: But on a personal note, it really just pays to
22:21
S3: be a little bit more kind to each other. As
22:24
S3: I said, Steph Powell was on the receiving end of
22:26
S3: judgmental comments when she was pregnant with her fifth child.
22:30
S3: And as we know, a lot of people did not
22:32
S3: want to speak with me on the record about being
22:34
S3: childfree by choice because they were on the receiving end
22:37
S3: of some awful comments. Katrina Strickland made a really sad
22:40
S3: point that people who were childless, not by choice, they
22:44
S3: would be criticized and blamed or judged for something that's
22:48
S3: beyond their control and also a fate that they didn't want.
22:51
S3: I spoke also with only children who have been on
22:54
S3: the receiving end of lots of stereotypes that they don't
22:56
S3: agree with. So I just think it really pays to
22:58
S3: be a bit nicer to each other because really, you
23:02
S3: don't know what someone's going through. And maybe if we
23:04
S3: are a bit more kind to each other, that might
23:07
S3: address our doom and dread and lack of hope issue.
23:13
S1: I love that note to end on. So thank you
23:16
S1: so much Bronte and Matt for your time.
23:19
S3: Thank you Sam.
23:19
S6: Thank you.
23:31
S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer
23:35
S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
23:39
S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow
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