Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 160:16-17. Interest: Verbal, Thank You; Agent or Others Profiting; Loan and Interest Via Jewish Agent; Scholars Lending Food

Transcript

Yoreh De’ah 160:16-17. Interest: Verbal, Thank You; Agent or Others Profiting; Loan and Interest Via Jewish Agent; Scholars Lending Food · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:02
  OK, good morning. We are continuing Helkos, Ribes,
• 0:06
  Kuf, Samer. We're going to continue today
• 0:10
  with Eve Tazai. And today's show should be Fua,
• 0:13
  my father Nissim Ben Naima. And I just want to make one
• 0:18
  comment from what we learnt the previous day about saying thank
• 0:23
  you, a person gives you a loan. Can you just say the words Toda
• 0:26
  toda rabaa, thank you. She's got something like that.
• 0:30
  So I just want to point out maybe from a bit of a different
• 0:35
  perspective, the, the halakhah of getting Ribis, right?
• 0:40
  It's it, it, it doesn't only apply to money, it could apply
• 0:45
  to any kind of benefit, right? That's the primary thing over
• 0:50
  here. It's getting some kind of
• 0:51
  benefit. It could be through words, it
• 0:54
  could be through actions, it could be doing favours and it
• 0:57
  could be cash. But all of them is under the
• 0:59
  same could be of the same prohibition.
• 1:03
  But it does mean we we do have what it could be midrasa.
• 1:11
  So that's a question if it suits mahogas.
• 1:15
  I mean, like for yeah, depends what it is.
• 1:18
  So, but what I just want to point out the Malva's doing a
• 1:22
  nice thing. He's doing a tremendous khasa.
• 1:24
  He's he's giving money. He's loaning the person, right?
• 1:27
  It's his choice. And you can choose who to give
• 1:29
  your khasa to. The Torah's not telling or
• 1:32
  Khaza's not telling us to, to think that, you know, don't
• 1:37
  treat the Malva like the bad guy.
• 1:40
  You're allowed to smile and we saw that it does seem many might
• 1:47
  do say it's OK to say the words thank you because nowhere in
• 1:52
  Khazal anywhere do we see it's Usher to say thank you.
• 1:55
  The only thing you're going to see doing something as as a nice
• 2:01
  gesture that wasn't done before that you'll see, You'll see in
• 2:05
  the Roshoni, you're not allowed to praise the guy and to give
• 2:08
  the guy blessings. So again, tiscaler mitzvos might
• 2:11
  be a problem depending on how you interpret that.
• 2:14
  But so that's what's the problem.
• 2:18
  But to acknowledge, you know, you got a loan, you're signing
• 2:22
  it, you're acknowledging it, your your Moda on the facts,
• 2:25
  that's not necessarily in and of itself is definitely not a
• 2:30
  problem whatsoever. And so therefore, when a person
• 2:34
  just says Toda, it could be all you're doing is you're just
• 2:36
  acknowledging what he gave you. If you just say the words, you
• 2:40
  know, I appreciate it. It could very well be 100%
• 2:44
  Luther and depends. I'm sure there's going to be
• 2:46
  different takes on that one. But you're not praising him.
• 2:50
  You're not giving him anything. He's not getting anything in in
• 2:53
  return. You're not flattering him.
• 2:55
  You're not giving him Bracas. So I just wanted to point it out
• 2:59
  now the as far as saying thank you, you won't find anyone
• 3:03
  discuss it until I believe the Shokanar Kharov and he points
• 3:09
  out there it says it is the expression of Lahodos Lahak
• 3:15
  Ziktova. So that's where a lot of the
• 3:18
  later acronium if if they're if they say it's a problem, it's
• 3:22
  based on that. So it depends some depends how
• 3:26
  you explain the Shalkhana Kharab.
• 3:27
  You're saying, well, ho dos and you're being marks IK Tova.
• 3:31
  It's like you're saying thank you so much.
• 3:33
  Now I owe you a favor, but just to say the words thank you is
• 3:38
  definitely not Mukharak, at least what the Shalkhana Kharab
• 3:42
  is saying at all. And I just want to add 1
• 3:45
  interesting egress, Moshe. That's it's in your idea.
• 3:50
  Olive Simon PE So very interesting question and it's
• 3:54
  actually I'm sure not everyone agrees necessarily, but it's an
• 3:57
  interesting. The question is you publish A
• 4:01
  safer and someone lends you money to publish the safer.
• 4:06
  The question is in in your safer.
• 4:08
  Can you write? Thank you so much to so and so
• 4:11
  for lending me money so that I can have you know, I have money
• 4:16
  to publish the safer and I give him a bracha vakuli Vakuli.
• 4:20
  So there in so he starts out by saying, you know, saying the
• 4:27
  words, saying Toda is a problem, but I'll just point out it's
• 4:32
  mentioned in Vircos Aria, a post section, Los Angeles or just
• 4:37
  other of Arie Adler or he he quotes that.
• 4:43
  If you actually speak to the Rabuni who spoke to or some
• 4:45
  Rabuni who spoke to Ramosha, he wasn't again saying Toda.
• 4:51
  It's more on the lines of the way we explained the Shofan
• 4:54
  Arkharov. It it depends how you thank him
• 4:58
  anyways. Then the the the emotion
• 5:00
  continues to write and you're allowed to write in the safer.
• 5:04
  Don't say I'm thanking you and giving you a bracha for lending
• 5:07
  me the money, but you are allowed to state the facts.
• 5:11
  You're allowed to write in your safer and print so and so gave
• 5:15
  me money so that I can print the safer.
• 5:17
  He lent me money and by doing that, a kurshbaraku for sure is
• 5:21
  going to give him a bracha and that is as you're allowed to do.
• 5:26
  So OK, let's let's go on to today.
• 5:30
  Sorry for that little digression.
• 5:32
  OK, but fine. Ted Zine motor lomar la calvero
• 5:39
  heylech Zeus. You're allowed to go to your
• 5:41
  friend and tell him here, take this money, keep this money.
• 5:45
  I don't know. I like to use.
• 5:49
  I don't know from what. I'm OK, Whatever.
• 5:50
  We'll just say Zeus, whatever. You go to a certain amount of
• 5:53
  money. Now, who is Havera over here?
• 5:57
  Again, this is a major principle from the Gemara in in fava
• 6:02
  Mitzia. It's in Samajhtet.
• 6:04
  It's on the base. Lo Astra Torah ella ribit haba
• 6:09
  milove. Yeah.
• 6:11
  Milove la malve. The only time you're going to
• 6:14
  have Ribis de Raisa is if it's going from the Malvet to the the
• 6:21
  lobe is paying the Malvet for for the loan.
• 6:23
  All right, So we're going to see a couple applications.
• 6:27
  So how do we see this? So here, what's the case?
• 6:30
  Who's making the profit? Now we did have a case
• 6:34
  previously, I think it was in Udalid where the Malvet did
• 6:38
  profit, but he profited from somebody else, not the lobe.
• 6:41
  And that was mutter this case. The the agent is profiting you
• 6:48
  gimel OK, whatever it was you, you gimel OK over there.
• 6:52
  So that was the Malva was benefiting and it's still OK
• 6:54
  because the lobe is not the one who gave the money here.
• 6:58
  The lobe is giving the money. I think we're going to keep
• 7:01
  reading, but he's not giving it to the Malva, he's giving it to
• 7:05
  an agent. He's convincing or bribing or
• 7:10
  encouraging and paying the agent to get this free loan.
• 7:14
  So that's 100% because there's no transaction from the lobe to
• 7:18
  the lobe of paying interest or giving any kind of money.
• 7:23
  OK, right. Because the lobe is paying to
• 7:29
  the OR TiVo or whatever you want to call it.
• 7:31
  OK, so what's the case You I'm giving you money.
• 7:37
  He's making a small profit. The guy is going to get a big
• 7:39
  loan out of it. That's why he's doing that.
• 7:41
  The Amor la ploni shialveni and get this encourage, convince
• 7:45
  this guy to give me this big loan that I need the filou leben
• 7:49
  hamalve mutter lomar Kane. You can even ask and pay your
• 7:54
  son who's acting as the agent, but on the condition, condition
• 7:59
  Rushihe Gado, the Eno somer al Shokanavi, as the Shah and Taz
• 8:04
  put it, you have to have both criteria for it to be a mutter
• 8:08
  because the Malva himself can't be benefiting from the Lova.
• 8:12
  So it has to be where the agent is a gadol.
• 8:15
  He's 13 years old and he's also able to take care of himself and
• 8:19
  make his own business dealings. He's not, he's not reliant or
• 8:23
  and being supported by his father or the Malva in this
• 8:27
  case. OK, I think that's what we need.
• 8:32
  Let's keep reading. Haggah yeish omrim.
• 8:36
  Yeah. Haggah Yeish omrim.
• 8:39
  Dasur lamal velika macabel zehazuz.
• 8:43
  Shalaya volarim. Now everything was done 100%
• 8:48
  kosher. Kadasu kadin.
• 8:50
  Now, can the malva now get money from this agent?
• 8:55
  It wasn't a tanai. It wasn't a guarantee.
• 8:58
  And if it was part of the deal, then really it's probably it's
• 9:02
  it's Usser Mider Aisa or Mider Abanan, whatever the situation
• 9:05
  might be. OK, that's not for now, but to
• 9:09
  go. If part of the deal was to get
• 9:11
  for the Malvet to get, it'd be 100% Usser here.
• 9:15
  It wasn't part of the deal, but the Malvet now goes to the
• 9:20
  agents and wants to get some money, some of his money back
• 9:23
  or, or to profit out of it. So then it's so then you're not
• 9:30
  allowed to do that. It was done behead there, but
• 9:33
  now it's Shaloya vole laharim. So it doesn't lead to being
• 9:38
  harama. Either it looks like harama this
• 9:40
  time or it's for the next time. It'll lead to it'll be the new
• 9:44
  way it's always done and it'll become it'll become us.
• 9:48
  Yeesh, Omrim the mutrelli yisrael lomar la caveiro
• 9:52
  yisrael. Now some also say you can do
• 9:54
  this mutre Yisrael it right. So that was the Yeesh omrim
• 10:00
  according to the shalkhanar. Maybe mutter it's from a
• 10:04
  different region. But anyway, so that was the the
• 10:06
  Rama and now so that was the one ister of the Rama.
• 10:09
  Now the Rama here is meikle, the mutterly Israel Amar la Cabrera.
• 10:12
  You sell the the a Jew can go to another Jew, the Harvelli Maud
• 10:22
  MI ploni. You sell the ribit and go
• 10:27
  basically, you're gonna essentially been taking a loan
• 10:32
  with interest from a Jew to Jew. But what's he doing?
• 10:37
  You're not doing it directly. So that's based on a quote that
• 10:41
  I said in the I quoted from the Kumar.
• 10:43
  It's only a problem if it's from the from the lova to the Malva.
• 10:47
  But if the two of them have have, they don't talk to each
• 10:50
  other. They have nothing to do with
• 10:51
  each other. So you're going to you're going
• 10:54
  to see in the Roma, it might how it how it could be mutter and
• 10:58
  most ahronium argue and say that's a it's a complete
• 11:02
  mistake, a total misunderstanding of of the
• 11:05
  Kumar. OK, where the rishelin he gets
• 11:09
  it from. So he says how the Limao MU
• 11:14
  ploni yisra the repeat the mutter la Tate a Kharka Khari
• 11:18
  beat with Shalia Khla Viola. And now this agent is the one
• 11:24
  who so the agent is the one who takes the loan originally from
• 11:27
  the Malva and gives it to the Lova.
• 11:29
  And this agent same age, another agent doesn't matter.
• 11:32
  He's the one who gets the money from the Lova and pays off the
• 11:36
  malva. And the Malva and the lova never
• 11:39
  ever talk to each other. They never give money to each
• 11:41
  other. It's all through this this
• 11:44
  middleman dolo Astra TA Allah Ribitaban miad Lova the Malva
• 11:50
  adds that word that it's not in the Kumar that I have it has
• 11:54
  shaliya Eno OSA shum Issa and the shaliya is not doing any
• 11:59
  kind of Issa himself. The the high repeat lovely day.
• 12:03
  He who he's not paying her this. He's not doing anything wrong.
• 12:07
  The E mishum says Shluko and you're not going to have if
• 12:10
  everything is much that there's no naive issues issues the E
• 12:13
  mishum. Oh, and the shot just points out
• 12:18
  when it says you pay him the Tate a harka Karibis, you could
• 12:24
  pay him immediately. It doesn't matter, just the way
• 12:26
  of speaking. It doesn't mean when you pay it
• 12:28
  doesn't matter. It's all as long as it's always
• 12:31
  being done through the Shalia Khatzmatter, the E mishum
• 12:35
  shalucho Shalam Kimoso. What about we say the principle
• 12:39
  of Shalia Shalam kimoso? So then again, it's a big
• 12:43
  question how you use the following words if it applies
• 12:47
  over here or not. I am Nachronium Ain shaliya
• 12:51
  lidvara avera. So we have this very famous
• 12:53
  principle in Chas Ain Shaliya Cidvara Vera.
• 12:57
  You can't have a shaliya do an avera.
• 13:00
  So normally, what does that mean?
• 13:01
  If some if a wants to kill somebody, if you hire someone to
• 13:07
  be to to be the hitman. So the one who hires him is not
• 13:10
  the one who actually killed him. The one who killed him killed
• 13:13
  him. And that's the one who's it was
• 13:14
  really high there. We don't say enlische de Vera
• 13:17
  Vera, but it's used over here. Again, the question is can or
• 13:21
  cannot be used. So the Rama uses it aim, Shaliak
• 13:26
  dwara Vera. The Shaliak's in the middle over
• 13:28
  here so that Noa Vera can can pass through the aim, the aim.
• 13:33
  And it's the Shalia who's paying the money and he's doing all the
• 13:37
  transactions so that there's no Shalia, the aim, the Farsi and
• 13:41
  Madavar Bifinay Amharitz. But don't publicize this in
• 13:44
  front of all my arts, Fahenikar. And this is really the halacha
• 13:48
  alpha garbage. Even though some people, some
• 13:53
  are burning, don't agree and don't like this.
• 13:55
  The hetter is that Might Basiosaif and others he's
• 14:00
  talking about in his days, Vishoni Umach Miriam, the Ostro.
• 14:05
  And they say it's Aser. You should know.
• 14:07
  Yeesh. I hold that it works and when
• 14:12
  it's a real Sarah, you're allowed to rely on it to to make
• 14:18
  loans. All right, just to point out.
• 14:20
  So it's the base yo save to the Bush and the Taz who argue and
• 14:24
  the grave who argue on the, the Rama, right?
• 14:27
  It's either a Taos Gadol, Taos Gamor and it's the darts, the
• 14:33
  Rama, the Bach and the Shah who agreed that this that this Rama
• 14:38
  that it works at least when it's laid tetsorak, it's mutter.
• 14:43
  I think the Rubiki Vega also disagrees the with the Rama.
• 14:49
  The Shah points out, though this only works when it's a the
• 14:54
  Shalia is a Jew. You might have to say counter
• 14:58
  intuitive. You have to get more Jews
• 15:00
  involved and then it's mutter. But if then if the Shalia is a
• 15:04
  non Jew, that's important. So even if for those who are
• 15:08
  Mako like this, they often will make a mistake perhaps, and
• 15:11
  they'll use a middle man who's a non Jew, and that's and that's
• 15:15
  doesn't work because one second, because he's basically he's
• 15:23
  considered like a Mai Sakov. He's just AI don't know just the
• 15:27
  vehicle and and they're Anschlikwaslaakum and OK inister
• 15:36
  anyways, it's fine. Let's go on.
• 15:40
  It's so a question. Let's let's let's move on.
• 15:47
  OK, Umiko makkom imalova Kibel Hamao Raksha Shaliak loharibis
• 15:54
  Asif. Now let's say you're using the
• 15:57
  Shaliak the Rama points out. OK, even if you're using the
• 15:59
  Shaliak though, the Malva can't give the money over.
• 16:03
  The Shaliak must be used both times when giving over the loan
• 16:07
  and returning the loan and paying the rivas.
• 16:10
  The the shiliak has to be 100% involved for any of the trans
• 16:14
  transactions. Otherwise it's us.
• 16:17
  Ava IM shaliya hamalga IM shaliya hamalga one second IM
• 16:24
  shaliya hamalve hil villalova beribeat VSA star of shame
• 16:29
  hamalvec havoc kiido hilvelo hamalve atsmo.
• 16:33
  Also, this has to be verbal. Once it's written down in the
• 16:36
  star, well, the star itself is it's really making everything
• 16:40
  work and making that the whole transaction and therefore the
• 16:45
  star itself is. If the Malva and the Lova are
• 16:49
  signing the star, then it's as if it's one to another, the ASA
• 16:54
  filo ASA shiliak, even if the even if there is a shiliak
• 16:59
  involved. No, OK, that's the new thing,
• 17:02
  sorry. Anyways, it's ASA, if you use a
• 17:04
  star, everything has to be through the Shalia and it has to
• 17:09
  be done OK. The Malvanova can't be signing A
• 17:12
  star otherwise that's also considered.
• 17:14
  They're involved to each other. There are Surafila, Sasha,
• 17:20
  Shalia, the Star, Avila Ikar, Alvaha, Al Shame, Al Malva.
• 17:39
  He means he doesn't know about the star.
• 17:43
  Maybe. Well, when you took the money,
• 17:49
  you have witnesses. I don't know.
• 17:55
  OK, let's go to your Zine anyways.
• 17:58
  That's the That's not halacha. You had Zine.
• 18:02
  Tell me. This is an interesting halacha
• 18:05
  Here. Tamilika Kamim have a header to
• 18:08
  give a loan the ribis. How is that Tamilika kamim?
• 18:12
  Shehilbu zed Z dvarim shalmachal.
• 18:15
  Now we're only talking about food.
• 18:17
  We're not talking about anything else, certainly not money.
• 18:21
  ABI abama shalhava ABI ribis. So what are we talking about?
• 18:25
  If you have two friends, Tamilika Kamim and they want to
• 18:28
  give each other food for the Natan Lo, yet there Amma Shaloba
• 18:34
  Hamenu and he pays them more than he gave them.
• 18:37
  For example, at Homeesh up until 1/5 or 20%.
• 18:44
  Let me just keep reading. Well, let me just say at Homeesh
• 18:46
  means MI lagaf, that means you give 100.
• 18:51
  Let's say you're going to give a box crate of the vegetable, 100
• 18:56
  of them and then the lobe returns 120, right?
• 19:01
  20% from what was given it turns into 120 Hariza mutter.
• 19:07
  That's 100% mutter. Now normally that would be
• 19:10
  normal. If that was B cut suits from the
• 19:13
  from the outset, that would be ribis suits.
• 19:16
  Alright, Ribis derisa. So how could tell me how many do
• 19:19
  ribis derisa? So first of all, let's just
• 19:24
  assume he didn't know about it from the low venom all but
• 19:27
  didn't make a set amount. You're just giving him 100 and
• 19:32
  he's expecting 100 back. He might get 120 later.
• 19:35
  Can you? That's a separate question.
• 19:40
  According to this, I don't think it makes any difference.
• 19:50
  OK, this is the bottom line, the main point.
• 19:53
  Why is it mutter when you have and it's done?
• 19:55
  Bilashan, a little bit. How about you tell somebody I'm
• 20:00
  lending you? You know, this amount of food,
• 20:03
  you're not telling him you're giving it as a gift.
• 20:05
  You know, can I borrow? Can I lend?
• 20:07
  And you know you're going to eat it.
• 20:08
  So therefore it's it's it's normally we would call that
• 20:11
  that's alone. If it's two Thalmanika Khamene,
• 20:15
  we now both of them, the lobe and the malva have to both be
• 20:18
  Thalmanika Khamene. OK, what that is, it's a it's a
• 20:22
  whole separate question. They have to generally the post
• 20:25
  can say they're more they're knowledgeable, they learn
• 20:28
  they're Yari Shamain, not everybody more Yahidium.
• 20:32
  I don't know how far you take it, especially in the learned
• 20:36
  society. So anyways, Hariza, because we
• 20:40
  know that they're giving a gift. Tamili Khakami know ribis is
• 20:46
  Asad araisa and they know that with giving items, it can also
• 20:50
  be ribis de araisa. So they and they don't want to
• 20:53
  be over ribis de araisa or darabani.
• 20:55
  So anytime they give an object to each other, we know for sure
• 21:00
  it's an I'm gonna, but we know for sure that it's only a it's
• 21:04
  given as a Matana. Remember, we learned that if any
• 21:08
  item that's given as a Matana or anytime it's in business, it's
• 21:13
  never going to be you can rent out items.
• 21:16
  It's never going to be an issue of Ribis, at least in a Der Isa
• 21:19
  level. But here you're given as a gift.
• 21:21
  You're allowed to give back a gift in return and it just OK.
• 21:29
  So anyway, so bottom line, it's it's it's mutter.
• 21:33
  Can this apply to neighbors given?
• 21:36
  So what I do want to point out and I I I don't want to learn
• 21:39
  the others. See if here we're going to see
• 21:42
  very shortly, not today, but Kobsama bet Siif Alif discusses
• 21:46
  neighbors giving an an egg, a couple eggs, giving a loaf of
• 21:50
  bread to each other if there's a problem.
• 21:53
  So we're going to see a Davra Mouat this mutter both for
• 21:56
  Ashkenazi and Svardi, even though it's only mentioned in
• 21:59
  the Rama, but we're going to get there later here.
• 22:02
  It's really you're going to be giving not a dovormua.
• 22:05
  You could be giving the Gemara. The example of the Gemara is 100
• 22:10
  something, I don't know, we'll call it 100 apples.
• 22:12
  I don't know what the case is, but what?
• 22:15
  So anyways, it's you're giving them something 100 of them.
• 22:18
  That's not, I don't know if I would call that a dovormua.
• 22:21
  But anyways, whatever it is, I mean, it depends for what issue
• 22:27
  here. This 20% is also called the
• 22:29
  Dover muat. The, the, the inch, the extra,
• 22:34
  not the principles Dover muat, but the addition 'cause I'll
• 22:37
  also call Dover muat. I think that's from Tosos, but
• 22:40
  that's also called the Dover muat.
• 22:44
  Anyway. So because up to 20%, we assume
• 22:49
  that it's given as a gift and no one is worried about it once
• 22:53
  it's more than 20%. So it's not so normal for
• 22:56
  neighbors to friends to be giving gifts so much.
• 22:59
  So then I don't know if it's looks like Ribis or we're afraid
• 23:03
  it might really be Ribis. Whatever it is, that's us, Sir.
• 23:06
  So, but tell me if Akaman can do it if it's up to 20%.
• 23:11
  I saw in a Silva's Shalom, he writes that some say if we're
• 23:15
  talking about a huge principal amount and the 20% becomes a big
• 23:20
  number. So then some say it's not
• 23:22
  allowed. I don't know.
• 23:23
  It's a bit of a Kaddish, but but it could be just not too many
• 23:30
  discuss that. OK, so let's we said the food,
• 23:36
  the vermuat and fine and haggah. Now the Rama adds the Ishma
• 23:43
  Tyrion. I feel a bit in Makila, even if
• 23:45
  the two friends said from the gecko, I'm you're going to give
• 23:48
  me 100 now and I'm going to get 120 in return because they still
• 23:52
  do it as a Matana OB vad, the dovar muat.
• 23:56
  But it has to be with a dovar muat, right?
• 23:58
  The 20% and we call Malcolm, but don't do this in front of other
• 24:06
  people because then people are going to are going to see and
• 24:09
  learn from you and they're going to do an Ovira.
• 24:12
  I guess we'll stop or we'll go a bit over stop.