Latest / Cocaine Willie / Inside College Basketball Officiating: Travel, Pressure & The Whistle

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Inside College Basketball Officiating: Travel, Pressure & The Whistle · Cocaine Willie

0:38
What is up, everybody? You are listening to yet another
0:41
edition of Cocaine Willie, the official Kansas State
0:44
representative on the college huddle.
0:46
I'm your commissioner, Bob Trollsby.
0:47
And as always, I'm joined by my Co host, the good chef Andre
0:51
Napier and fireball, Matt Marchisini.
0:54
And tonight we're doing another bye week special.
0:56
And with basketball season right around the corner, we wanted to
0:59
do something a little bit different, different to get you
1:01
primed for hoops this year. We're joined by my friend and
1:04
former like day job work colleague Zach, who is a
1:07
basketball official at the D2 level.
1:10
And we wanted to use today as an opportunity for you, the fans,
1:14
to get a peek behind the curtain of the life of a basketball
1:17
official. Zach, how are you doing and how
1:20
are you feeling about the three and four start for your Colorado
1:23
Buffaloes this year? Thanks for the intro, Bob.
1:27
I'm doing great. I'm excited.
1:31
That was a a big win last week and we're also on by, so
1:36
hopefully we can get a little bit healthier.
1:39
How How do you feel, though, about Colorado storming the
1:41
field after a win against Iowa State?
1:44
Tacky. Fair enough, one word.
1:49
That's all we need. That's all we need.
1:51
Before we dive into the preview, we want to give a shout out
1:54
first to our sponsor, Auntie Maze Parlor.
1:57
And I don't have a beer right now, but Auntie Maze is located
2:01
at 616 N 12th St. in the heart of Aggieville in Manhattan, KS.
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Auntie Maze has been in business for 51 years and is a must visit
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alike. And they have everything you
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could possibly ever want there. If you want to do Thera, they
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have therapy and they do that every so often.
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The next one is on Tuesday, October 28th.
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They have music, live music, they have comedy, they have
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trivia smack down as we're recording this on Wednesday,
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October 15th. They have trivia smack down
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tonight they have Hostie is performing live at Auntie Mae's
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on Thursday, October 16th. And then Distilled is a brass
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band that's going to be performing for your bye week
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entertainment in Manhattan on Saturday, October 18th.
2:48
So if you're in Aggieville, if you're in Manhattan, make sure
2:52
you get out to Auntie Mae's. Check them out and if you are
2:56
there, be sure to tell them Cocaine Willie sent you and you
2:58
can buy one of our Wildcat Country Let's Ride Koozies right
3:03
there at the bar. If you want one, just ask your
3:06
bartender and they will provide. But that's going to do it for
3:10
our you. Didn't ask me if I went.
3:12
Did you go? Yes.
3:13
I brought my high school friends.
3:14
They loved it. They shut.
3:16
They shut the box. Never played that big game.
3:20
Love Annie Maze. I saw Jeff.
3:21
He says hi. Hell yeah.
3:24
Love it. All right, so Zach, just to kind
3:28
of introduce you real quick, you're you're obviously you're
3:30
AD 2 official. You've worked, I would imagine
3:33
hundreds of of college games across various different levels,
3:37
high school youth games. Prior to that, you're also a
3:40
Colorado Buffalo. So you're familiar with the Big
3:43
12, you're familiar with the prowess of the league.
3:46
So you I think you fit right in with with this crew in this pod.
3:50
I want to use today as an opportunity to pull back the
3:52
curtain on on what the life of an official looks like.
3:56
And, and also get into some of the end game stuff when it comes
3:59
to, OK, if someone's playing a more aggressive game, maybe
4:02
laying, laying off the whistle a little bit or evening out calls,
4:05
that kind of stuff. We'll get into all of that.
4:07
But I want to start from the top and, and get a better idea of
4:10
how did, how did you get into basketball officiating?
4:13
What really drew you to it? And what does your progression
4:17
looked like through your career? Yeah, that's a great question.
4:21
To start, I will say that there's probably 3 paths that
4:25
people will follow to get into officiating #1 you're a decent
4:31
player, but you're not good enough to continue playing #2
4:34
you're a really good player and you don't want to get into
4:36
coaching and then #3 is nepotism.
4:40
So I fall in the third bucket. I have a family member that
4:45
refereed in the NBA in the 80s. That's wow.
4:52
Hell yeah. I'd love to hear some stories
4:54
about that one. No, I, so I, I've been fortunate
4:58
in my time, I've gotten to know, know some referees and, and it's
5:03
very much a hard, hard job, you know, starting out from the
5:07
youth ranks And then, you know, if you're interested in kind of
5:09
moving up to different levels of it, you know, it's, it seems
5:13
like it's a pretty individualistic job with, with
5:17
finding opportunities and, you know, finding, you know, games
5:21
to be, to be reffing. And probably a lot of our
5:23
listeners don't necessarily realize that it's not
5:26
necessarily about knowing the basketball rules, but you're
5:29
understanding the mechanics, you're understanding the
5:32
evaluations and sometimes the politics, you know of it.
5:35
So I'm just curious, you know, what does the path look like for
5:38
someone to try and move up the officiating ladder?
5:41
You know, going from maybe your local games, local local youth
5:45
games to moving up to Division Two and maybe, you know,
5:48
Division One at some point. Yeah.
5:51
So Matt, I started by doing like AAU games and sub varsity high
5:59
school games. So not particularly glamorous,
6:04
but it was a great job when I was in college.
6:07
So I would do AAU games on the weekends and then a couple
6:13
nights a week I would drive sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes
6:16
an hour to Boulder area high schools and do like the the sea
6:22
game, which is the sophomore level and then typically the JV
6:25
game. From there you progress to
6:30
varsity, which comes with a little bit more glitz and
6:34
glamour. Colorado high school basketball
6:37
is not particularly good. Still don't have a shot clock
6:40
and hopefully we're able to get that fixed soon.
6:44
But I was very fortunate in that I was hired at the junior
6:49
college level pretty early on, so kind of moved more towards
6:54
that route. From there, there's typically 2
6:58
past that are presented. The NBA actually does a really
7:04
good job of scouting and recruiting officials.
7:08
So they have a grassroots program where they put on three
7:12
or four camps every year, between 125 to 150 campers.
7:18
At each one of those camps. They identify, they train and
7:22
they develop Those guys in the G League.
7:25
That's much more of like, hey, I want to make this a full time
7:28
career and hopefully your, your day job is flexible enough to
7:33
allow you to do that. For the rest of us, it it's kind
7:37
of more towards you work junior college, you get selected for
7:43
the tournament and then you go to a division two conference
7:47
tryout camp, similar hiring process for Division One, which
7:52
would be kind of the next step. We're in a unique time right now
7:56
and that there's there's like four or five guys that have all
8:01
of the Division One games. So you have to impress one of
8:04
those four or five guys. Yeah, I feel like we see that in
8:08
the Big 12, you know? Yes.
8:14
All right, well, let's I want to talk a little bit about the the
8:17
grind, the grind of said schedule that you were, you were
8:21
just touching on a little bit. I mean at the lower ranks when
8:24
you're officiating a lot of AAU games officiating, you know the
8:28
the high school ranks. But when it comes to that DD1D2,
8:33
you're doing multiple games a week, going cross country if
8:37
you're at the higher levels, if it's not local, non con games
8:41
like that. What does a typical week look
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like for like a referee at your standing and then maybe even at
8:49
the Power 5? Does it differ any?
8:52
And then just talk about that grind.
8:55
I know it's a grind. It is.
9:00
Bob and I were, were talking over a beer a couple months back
9:04
and I told him it's this is a thankless job.
9:07
So if you're looking for congratulations or you did a
9:11
good job, you're in the wrong profession.
9:13
So you know that going in. I'll, I'll speak more towards
9:17
the, the D1 guys because I think that's probably most relevant.
9:20
But unlike the NBA guys, we are 100% independent contractors, so
9:28
that means we can go and work as many different leagues as will
9:32
hire us. So it would not be uncommon for
9:36
big time, you know, Power 5 officials to work upwards of 20
9:42
games in a month. So to give you a little
9:46
perspective, let let's say you're working a Big 12 game in
9:52
Orlando on a Monday for Big Monday and then you're also
9:57
working in the Big Sky. So you could be in, you know,
10:01
Weber, Utah the next night. So those guys are on the road
10:07
all the time and the travel there is a bit insane.
10:17
And I feel like we see that a lot because you'll, you'll,
10:19
you'll know, you know, on a Sunday, Sunday morning game that
10:24
you know, Higgins or one of these guys as you know, TVTV,
10:28
Teddy TV Tony, I've always forget which guy's which, but
10:32
he's working like a Sunday game, but then was doing a Big Sky
10:35
game the previous night or something.
10:37
So it is, it is interesting to see that those guys do that kind
10:41
of back-to-back stuff. And, and I, I, I'm curious when,
10:45
when you have that grind, when you have that schedule like
10:48
that, how much do you think it impacts the on the court ability
10:52
for these officials to really, you know, do an outstanding job
10:56
or, or do their do their best job?
11:00
Bob, I won't give you my opinion.
11:02
I'll just tell you what the NBA does versus what the college
11:04
does and I'll let you guys make your own determination.
11:08
But I would say it's very rare that NBA guys are working
11:13
back-to-back nights. If they are special
11:18
circumstances, newer guys coming up the ranks travels probably
11:23
limited. Whereas the the college guys it
11:29
it would not be uncommon for them to work 5 or 6 games in a
11:33
week. Yeah, that that makes sense,
11:37
especially with with you all basically being independent
11:41
contractors, no benefits, paid per game, working as many as
11:45
possible to confirm like you are, you are paid per game.
11:50
Do do different conferences pay different rates as well?
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I guess I would be curious on that front because I know
11:55
there's kind of that consortium with the Big 12, the Big Sky,
11:58
the West Coast Conference and and a couple others.
12:00
But I'm curious, do different conferences, even at, you know,
12:04
within that consortium pay different levels or is it pretty
12:07
much a flat rate across the board?
12:10
That is, that is a great question.
12:12
We are independent contractors. We are paid per game.
12:16
We're 1099 across the board. So they're more or less.
12:21
We are responsible for our own travel expenses, food, anything
12:25
like that while we're on the road.
12:28
Some conferences will give like a per diem, but it's not a ton.
12:33
Pay varies wildly, you know, across D3, D2 and especially at
12:41
the D1 level. A lot of it is dependent on the
12:45
official supervisor going out and basically campaigning on our
12:50
behalfs for higher rates. But suffice to say the guys that
12:55
are working the the Power 5 games are, you know, mid 4
13:00
figures per game. So kind of talking about maybe
13:05
moving up divisions and, and potentially moving up to, to a
13:09
power five job officials, I mean, typically in the offseason
13:15
are doing clinics, they're working camps to, to build
13:19
exposure. And it seems like, you know, as
13:23
you move up potentially that that advancement depends on
13:28
networking. So basically you know, just like
13:30
in any role of who you know for Big 12 fans as a whole,
13:35
obviously a lot of people know who John Higgins is from his
13:37
history working games in the Big 12 conference.
13:40
But he does head up the consortium between the Big 12
13:44
and the five mid major conferences such as the Missouri
13:47
Valley in the Big Sky, West Coast Conference, etcetera.
13:51
So when an official wants to move up from division two to
13:55
Division One or or to the Power 5, what are some keys or, or, or
14:00
things that officials need to consider, you know, when moving
14:04
up to a level? And how much is it about who you
14:06
know versus maybe your actual performance or reputation as a
14:09
referee? Yeah, Matt, that's a great
14:12
question. I would say in my experience,
14:17
it's probably more than 50% networking, getting to know not
14:25
only the supervisors but a lot of the guys on staff and
14:29
building a reputation with them. And at the same time, you have
14:35
to play the game, you have to get to know the various
14:39
consortium supervisors. And it helps if you've got
14:44
people in your corner that are helping to, to champion you.
14:48
But if there's not an exact science to it, some, some guys
14:55
like the way that certain people look or the way that they
14:59
present on the court. Other guys are, are much more
15:03
focused on your communication skills and your ability to, to
15:08
diffuse situations. I think, you know, rule
15:12
knowledge and all of that is kind of the baseline for those
15:15
guys. So wouldn't be out of the
15:18
question for us to come into one of those camps and take, you
15:20
know, 1520 question rule rule tests to start.
15:29
In addition to that, I think more and more we're seeing film
15:34
breakdown and study become an important factor in that.
15:38
So after every game, I'll review it, I will kind of go to, I'll
15:44
have specific plays in mind, but I'll also clip other plays, I'll
15:47
send them to internal chats or groups within our division and
15:54
just kind of get feedback. So I think that part of it is is
15:57
getting good game film out there, believe it or not.
16:02
Got to have good film. I got a huddle tape.
16:04
I know it's I know it's out there somewhere.
16:06
I want to talk a little bit about game management and
16:10
especially from your side of how it, how it works, the way you
16:14
were just explaining it, where you're, you're traveling, you're
16:17
kind of, it seems like you're kind of solo, but there's crews
16:19
out there. So I, I kind of want to get a, a
16:22
quick question before I get into my main topic.
16:25
Are you always with the same crew every night at the level
16:28
that you're at now? Or you kind of just going in
16:31
blind, like, oh, John's going to be there and Scott is is going
16:35
to be on with me tonight. Not the same crew every night.
16:42
I think the conference that I am, I'm in, we have a staff of
16:45
about 80 ish guys. I know 75 of them pretty well
16:52
worked games with them. So any given night different
16:55
crew. Typically for us, we'll have one
17:00
or two or two or three of the guys travelling out of the same
17:02
area. So we'll we'll usually carpool.
17:05
So we'll get some some Rd. Time to to chat and get up to
17:12
speed on the the upcoming matchup.
17:14
Yeah, so in the and when it comes to that matchup, like
17:17
let's say it's it's two, you know, let's say you're at the D1
17:20
level, you're you're refereeing this Big 12 and it's a rivalry
17:24
matchup. How do you go into that matchup
17:26
with with the other people that are in your crew that you're
17:29
going to be a refereeing that game with?
17:32
Do you go in with a game plan? Like we're going to defuse it
17:35
immediately right when we get there.
17:37
The physicality can't go too far.
17:39
Or how how's the dynamic? Because if one guy on the crew
17:43
is just going out there and just blowing the whistle when you
17:46
don't expect it, how how does that work?
17:50
Yeah. So for us, I think being aware
17:55
of rivalry games, games later in the season when it matters for
18:01
standings or playoffs, it's really important.
18:04
So for us, hey, this is going to be an emotionally charged
18:09
environment. Let's come in, let's assert
18:11
ourselves so that we can nip any of the extracurriculars in the
18:16
bud early on. But I would say like in general
18:23
the the regular season games that we do, we try to get into a
18:27
flow and you have to have awareness of what your partners
18:30
are calling on the floor. So hey, we've got a 5050 block
18:34
charge on one end and we call it a block.
18:37
We have a similar play on the other end.
18:40
Yeah. And it's not the same calling
18:42
official. The two other guys need to be
18:44
aware of what's going on in the game, what was called.
18:47
And we would like to see similar calls play similar calls called
18:52
similarly is kind of the philosophy there.
18:55
So it's more of it in art than a science.
19:01
Like you have to have a feel for the game.
19:04
And you know, from there you you kind of make in game
19:07
adjustments. So for instance, we've had games
19:12
that that get a little bit out of hand, get a little bit too
19:14
physical, especially with post play.
19:18
So from that point you you have to tighten up, start calling
19:23
more of the ticky tack fouls if you will, to try and get the
19:27
players to adjust and decrease the level of physicality.
19:35
So I just watching basketball a ton and, and I think a lot of us
19:40
will sometimes get into the interactions between referees
19:45
and coaches. Referees and players out on the
19:47
court, especially in, you know, big games.
19:50
It's always a talking point from the fans.
19:54
I would imagine from, you know, from a higher level perspective,
19:58
officials build relationships with coaches over time as they
20:02
are working with those coaches in games.
20:05
You know, obviously coaches, you know there's different
20:08
personalities out there. You look even across the Big 12
20:11
as to how coaches will interact on the sideline.
20:14
So how do you approach communication when it comes to
20:18
your role on the court with coaches as well as players?
20:21
Is it something where, you know, is it dependent on the game
20:24
where you'll try and defuse situations a little bit early,
20:28
or do you kind of go in a little bit with an open mind on how the
20:33
game's tone might move forward and let that kind of dictate
20:37
your interactions on the court? Yeah, Matt.
20:40
So I think it at the D1 level, those guys have the the referees
20:47
that are working a lot of those games have established
20:49
relationships with those coaches.
20:51
So, you know, think of your your guys that you see four or five
20:57
nights a week. They know those coaches well,
21:01
they've worked for them before. So they're starting in a little
21:04
bit of a higher level. They can get away with saying
21:06
stuff that we can't. But I think at the league level,
21:13
it's important to know your coaches, you know, get to know
21:17
kind of their coaching style, their communication style,
21:20
because if I've got a fiery coach that you know, we'll,
21:25
we'll get set off very easily. I think I have to treat him
21:29
differently than than the coach that is just focused on coaching
21:33
his kids. I'll have a question here and
21:35
there for me. So I think it's #1 building
21:39
relationships, but #2 understanding that there are
21:42
different communication styles for different coaches.
21:47
I generally find it's a little bit easier to to communicate
21:50
through the the players and convey what we need to convey
21:55
through them. Sometimes the the coaches are a
21:58
little bit more standoffish and there's obviously ego that comes
22:03
along with it there. So it's it's game, game
22:07
dependent, situation dependent. But even beyond that, it's coach
22:10
dependent. So you know, what's Bill Self,
22:16
for example, like you, you kind of know if he gets going and he
22:20
runs hot, then you're going to have to deal with him a certain
22:23
way. Versus Tad is a little bit more
22:26
mild mannered. He does like to stomp his feet
22:29
from time to time. But you would handle those
22:31
coaches differently. So I want to, yeah, even on that
22:36
point when you got coaches and just people in the media that
22:42
are really critical of your profession as it is, how do you
22:47
go about like, do you do you feel yourself in the moment like
22:50
this is going to be a call that I know I'm going to feel later,
22:54
I'm going to get a lot of heat for this?
22:55
Are you thinking about that on the court?
22:58
Is there any like the conversations prior to like, say
23:02
you're with a Bill Self? He's he's really, I'm imagining
23:05
he's got to put a lot of pressure on the referees because
23:07
he wants it to go his way. Do you think about like the
23:11
possible criticism or anything like that, that the Limelight is
23:14
shining dining on you guys? I think there's an awareness of
23:18
it. I think I, I would be lying to
23:23
to say that, you know, we don't feel that or we don't think
23:26
about that. We try our best to be objective
23:30
and, you know, kind of take things play by play.
23:35
So I mentioned, you know, calling similarly similar plays
23:38
similarly earlier, you, you try to keep some of that in the back
23:42
of your mind, But we, we miss calls.
23:46
You know that you're going to face criticism when you kick a
23:48
call. And there are times where you're
23:51
like, this is a bang, bang play. We got to have a whistle on it.
23:55
And, you know, coming out that one of the coaches isn't going
23:59
to like the call. And that's all right, because in
24:02
four or five possessions, he might have a similar play that
24:05
goes in his favor. And all of a sudden, you know,
24:08
it's, it's kind of forgotten. So we miss plays.
24:12
We're not perfect. You know, if you if you did a
24:15
breakdown of like what what the call percentage was and what
24:19
goes against the home team versus the visiting team, I
24:21
would hazard a guess that they're pretty similar.
24:23
We're going to, we're going to make mistakes on both sides and
24:26
typically it evens out. So is the make up call a real
24:29
thing? Is that, Is that a real thing?
24:31
Because I've said that my entire life.
24:33
I can't imagine that that is a word that a referee would ever
24:37
say, right? That's not in the the mechanics
24:42
manual chef. So I, I think there's an
24:45
awareness of, you know, hey, maybe I, I kicked a call, but
24:49
that I wouldn't say that we go out of our way to to find
24:53
something. If it happens, it's great, you
24:57
know, then, then we look like we know what we're doing.
25:01
Absolutely. I I want to talk about just the
25:04
mentality because this is one of the hardest jobs that that you
25:08
could have. And, and when, when chef talks
25:10
about some of the scrutiny or some of the heat that you might
25:13
be getting from a home crowd, or if you're, if you're just, if,
25:17
if you make a call that whether you feel like it was a good call
25:21
or a bad call or otherwise, the fans certainly disagree with
25:23
you. What would you say is the
25:25
hardest part mentally about being an official?
25:27
And how do you reset after a controversial call or or after a
25:32
game where where the fans are really kind of hounding you for
25:35
for how you did? Yeah, so it's funny because I'd
25:42
say probably more than 50% of the D1 guys have a day job.
25:47
So we are electing to give up time with family and loved ones
25:54
to to go far fun places and referee these games and get
25:58
yelled at and and berated. So I don't know why we do it.
26:01
We're sick, but like I get a rush from being around the, the
26:10
competitive atmosphere kind of gets the juices flowing.
26:14
So there's something that that gets, you know, something that I
26:19
find very enjoyable. Being on the court, running up
26:24
and down with those kids and seeing them make plays and, and
26:26
make shots. I think that there are a couple
26:29
of different like centering techniques.
26:32
I would say we try not to get too emotional.
26:37
We try to be as objective as possible.
26:39
And obviously the coaches and the players, they're very
26:42
invested in the outcome, more invested in getting plays right.
26:47
So there's there's kind of a dichotomy there of it, but
26:52
you'll get heated. Try to try to center yourself
26:55
like I have. We talk as as referees a lot
27:00
about self talk. So something we just had it a
27:05
difficult call. It went against the home team.
27:09
Everybody's yelling at us, booing us, coaches, hot players
27:14
are a little bit upset. From there, it's like, OK, I've
27:18
got to move on to the next play. I've got to know what my primary
27:22
responsibility is. And you have to find ways to
27:25
focus, keeping in mind that the coach is still thinking about
27:31
that play, the players are still thinking about that play.
27:33
So you kind of just try and move on from there and get yourself
27:37
refocused. All right, So I want to bring up
27:42
probably one of the big things that we see consistently across
27:47
college basketball in the NBA is replay.
27:52
We know that replay is kind of expanding in the D2 space and
27:58
you know, it does as a fan, you know, raise some questions about
28:03
game rhythm being affected with too many replays.
28:06
We see that pretty frequently, players and coaches trusting
28:10
referees with the replay pieces and and kind of taking away some
28:15
of the human judgement of of what you're doing.
28:19
So how has replay and technology changed this job for you?
28:25
Has it, has it really helped you?
28:26
Do you think it hurts the flow of the game and the authority of
28:30
the officials? Like what are what are kind of
28:32
your thoughts on on replay and how technology is being used
28:36
today? I think it's something that
28:39
we're very mindful of. Nobody wants us to have an out
28:44
of bounds call with a minute 50 to go take 4 minutes, you know,
28:51
So I think the, the thinking was when we brought it back, hey,
28:57
it's kind of like a safety net. So we don't have to be perfect
29:00
on the court. And then that quickly pivoted to
29:05
we still need to be vigilant. We still need to be really
29:07
confident in our calls. And then we do have that
29:11
secondary option of replay. But at the Division two level,
29:16
we're lucky if we get two or three different camera angles.
29:20
For the most part, we get one and it's half court, 15 rows up.
29:25
Some kid, some student is manning the camera.
29:29
So we can't guarantee that we're we're even looking at the right
29:31
thing. So for us, we don't really, you
29:34
know, we're a lot more inclined to keep the call on the floor.
29:40
I think for the Division One guys and I, we have, we've
29:45
tweaked the rules a little bit this year.
29:47
So I do think we will see more replays unfortunately.
29:54
But for us, it's like, hey, these are the things we can
29:57
replay or we can go to review. These are the situations.
30:02
And obviously under 4 minutes the the list gets longer.
30:07
So we have to keep that in the back of our mind.
30:09
But by and large, we try and keep it short.
30:15
We try and get in and out. And the another major change
30:19
this year is all three of us will be at the monitor at the
30:21
same time instead of just two, which never made any sense to
30:24
me. So the first two guys go and
30:27
watch and then one guy gets tasked with standing out there
30:31
and then they swap him in and then there's a discussion.
30:35
So hopefully with all three of us being at the monitor this
30:38
year, that will expedite the process.
30:40
But you know, it's, it's good to have, but it it does take away
30:47
from the flow of the game. All right, well, I, I'm just
30:51
from how you're talking, I think you're an excellent referee just
30:56
for like if I had to hear that voice, that sultry voice, I
31:00
would I would say that you, you probably rock at your job.
31:03
So if, if you could like give your takeaways on like your
31:07
profession and maybe some advice to younger people that are like
31:11
you said, for pretty good basketball players that want to
31:14
get into the profession and be referees.
31:17
Like can you give them some advice on where to start?
31:19
Is there websites or anything like that you might know off the
31:22
top of your head that that they can find a way to get into the
31:26
profession? Because I'm I'm sure you could
31:28
always use more officials out there.
31:31
Chef, that's a great point. We are, our numbers are down.
31:37
People are kind of fed up with being yelled at and harassed, I
31:40
think in, in every aspect. So why would we voluntarily go
31:46
go to these environments where we're going to get harassed?
31:49
So we need more officials for sure.
31:51
I think the best place to start is with the your local high
31:56
school organization. So in Colorado we were with
32:01
IABO. So I went through IABO.
32:03
I was connected with the the local high school region here in
32:10
Colorado. From there they directed me to a
32:14
clinic to get me up and running basically, hey, let's do rules
32:20
and then let's get you on the court doing, you know, 3rd and
32:24
4th grader games, which is always fun seeing who can and
32:28
can't dribble. They would typically from there
32:33
get you into like a, a more formal like rules class.
32:36
You would be with a veteran official who is dedicated more
32:41
of their time to kind of get younger officials up and
32:44
running. That's the best place to start
32:48
because through those high school organizations, you're
32:50
going to meet the people that are in charge of like the AAU
32:54
stuff. And I think it's important to to
32:57
get exposed to that side of things as well as more of the
33:01
organized high school because you're the the more plays you
33:05
see, the better you're going to be.
33:07
We are so in the the conference that I work for, we have a
33:13
directive from the conference commissioner to speak with the
33:18
kids after we do scrimmages. My message to them is if you
33:22
guys want to remain close to the game, officiating is the best
33:27
way to do it because there's only so many spots for assistant
33:30
coaches and head coaches. And we could always use more
33:33
officials. Those guys typically come in at
33:36
a little bit higher level because they played higher level
33:39
ball. But I will say there's a, a big
33:43
difference between playing basketball and refereeing
33:47
basketball. You, you have to look at it
33:49
through some, some different lenses.
33:50
But I, we're, we're always looking for new, young, hungry
33:55
officials. All right, So if you're out
33:59
there and you want to be an official, there's your.
34:02
There's your call to action. So we've got a couple of just
34:05
fun questions that we wanted to get through here.
34:08
And feel free to, again, keep this as anonymous as you can or
34:11
as anonymous as you want to. But what's the most memorable
34:14
technical foul that you've ever called?
34:16
Oh. Man, I was working a high school
34:24
summer tournament and I was probably like 23 or 24, and one
34:32
of the coaches said something that I didn't particularly like.
34:37
And then he proceeded to stare at me.
34:40
So I gave him AT and then he just wouldn't, he wouldn't let
34:43
it go. So I said, hey, you know, we're
34:46
here for the kids. So either you knock it off or
34:50
you can watch the rest of the game from the parking lot.
34:53
He didn't take too kindly to that, so he decided he wanted to
34:57
watch the game from the parking lot.
35:00
He refused to leave. They had to come and get
35:01
security and this was like probably 4 or 5 minutes into
35:07
into the game. So that one sticks with me.
35:12
I've had a couple were kids, like I had a kid when I was
35:15
doing junior college that punted the ball into the stands.
35:19
So that was a fun one to do. Fortunately, no, no fights or
35:23
altercations like that. But, you know, other than that,
35:28
it's, it's pretty run-of-the-mill.
35:31
Also on on technicals, I mean, I thought I I spend way too much
35:35
time on Instagram, but there's this guy that like does his his
35:39
pretend baseball strikeout on there and he's like goes through
35:42
all the different techniques of how you would do a strikeout
35:45
call. What is your technical foul like
35:48
setup? Is it just like one finger on
35:50
top of the other one? Are you going full hands T are
35:54
you like? Are you like real aggressive
35:56
with it? I what's your technical foul set
35:59
up? I mean, see, we can't see you,
36:01
but I mean, I just. I, I love the, the Scott Foster
36:05
lowercase T where he's just like just gently touches his, his
36:11
index fingers together because like, you know, it's a often
36:17
times it's an emotional call. The, the kids are fired up, the,
36:22
the coaches are fired up. And then if you kind of just
36:24
give them the, the, the soft T, that's usually the best
36:29
reaction. So that's, that's my go to
36:30
method. Sometimes you got to be a little
36:33
bit more demonstrative than that, but I like the the
36:35
lowercase TI. Feel like that's almost the
36:38
equivalent of giving someone a thumbs down or a thumbs up when
36:41
they when they cut you off in traffic.
36:43
Instead of getting the finger. All right, just curious.
36:49
So what is your weirdest fan, player or coach interaction?
36:59
We'll get real weird. So I I started when I was very
37:03
young, as you guys probably could tell.
37:06
So I was not too far removed from high school and on more
37:12
than one occasion, some of the female high school students
37:19
tried to get my number or ask me on a date.
37:25
I had one of the when you when you start doing high school, you
37:29
do boys and girls. I had one of the the girls ask
37:32
me while on the court ask me on a date.
37:35
So that's those days are are behind me.
37:38
Thankfully, my first junior college game during the national
37:44
anthem, the visiting coach came over to me and, and asked me how
37:47
old I was and I told him and he said, man, I got kids older than
37:50
you. So stuff like that.
37:54
Some of the comments from the junior college coaches are a
37:56
little bit off the wall. There's a reason that they're
37:59
coaching junior college. So those are typically pretty
38:03
fun interactions. So the the list goes on.
38:09
Fortunately, I I haven't had to kick any spectators out in the
38:13
last couple of years. But we we do pull the game
38:18
administrator over and you say, hey, this is the message we'd
38:22
like you to convey. We want them to stay, but if
38:24
they're unable to follow the rules then they can watch from
38:28
the parking lot. I love that watch from the
38:31
parking lot. I'm about to start saying that a
38:33
lot. Let's let's let's get to the
38:37
nitty gritty because of this is a fan podcast.
38:41
I mean, I've played I played basketball like lower level high
38:45
school, like freshman year. What's one of these like rules
38:49
that you hear people talk about, but they have no idea what
38:52
they're actually talking about? They're they're sitting in their
38:54
lazy boy and like, oh, that was that was this better?
38:58
That probably charge, right? I would imagine like what a
39:00
charge is actually what's, what's the one rule that you
39:04
wish fans would like stop and actually think for a second?
39:09
I'll, I'll give you 2 so #1 and this one to this day drives me
39:17
crazy. There's no such thing as over
39:18
the back. Over the back does not exist in
39:20
the rule book anywhere, right? So we, we could have a, a
39:24
displacement foul. This would fall under like
39:27
rebounding fouls. But when people scream over the
39:31
back that that one drives me nuts.
39:36
And then the larger one. And, and this is a conversation
39:38
that we need to spread the gospel on this.
39:40
But legal guarding position, right?
39:43
So if I am, you know, I'm, I'm guarding Bob.
39:48
I've got 2 feet on the floor and my chest is facing him.
39:52
I'm in legal guarding position and I can move laterally and
39:58
backwards to maintain legal guarding position.
40:02
So this like, oh, his his feet weren't set.
40:05
That whole thing is like on a primary defender.
40:09
That's inaccurate information. If I'm the primary defender, I'm
40:13
guarding Bob. I can move my feet sideways.
40:15
If he he lowers his shoulder, initiates contact with me, that
40:19
should be called an offensive foul.
40:21
So everyone needs to learn legal guarding position.
40:25
Tell your friends, talk about it at the bar.
40:28
But that's that's my. I'll get off my soapbox but
40:30
that's my main one. That's like chef's MO is is
40:34
calling out over the backs. What?
40:38
I don't know if I've ever called that.
40:41
I've never asked for an over the back.
40:43
No, you can't. You can't sweep it under the
40:45
rug. You're.
40:46
We can go use AI. The over the back has never been
40:50
said on this podcast by me. Probably none of us because
40:52
we're ball knowers, but I mean, come on now.
40:55
Let me tell you the guy that sits behind me at the K State
40:58
basketball games definitely needs to learn what is legal
41:03
guardian position and or no over the backs.
41:06
I've watched Austin Trice. Trust me, I don't believe in
41:10
over the backs. That boy, he would jump over you
41:13
if he could. I'm going to be, yeah, I'm going
41:16
to be clipping this and sharing it with my wife who calls over
41:19
the back. I feel like every time she feels
41:21
like it happens during a game. So we will definitely be
41:24
spreading the gospel about that. Last question I have is what
41:28
what would you say is the best gym or atmosphere that you've
41:32
had the chance to work in? Have to think about that.
41:41
I've been, I've been very fortunate in that I've done some
41:45
stuff for the Denver Nuggets. So we did.
41:49
This was a very long time ago. Yusuf Nurkic was still on the
41:54
team, but we did like a closed door scrimmage for, you know,
42:01
some, some local high schools as well as some Special Olympians.
42:05
And we were on the the main court.
42:08
That was pretty surreal. Those guys are very large and
42:13
very fast, so that that game happens at A at a much faster
42:19
rate. Beyond that, I think that there
42:24
have been a couple of of junior college games out in California
42:30
where, you know, San Francisco City College, it is kind of a
42:34
traditional power there and they've played games.
42:41
They were playing Santa Rosa Junior College and it was like
42:44
standing room only, you know, 5 rows deep trying to get in and
42:50
out of the gym. So that was pretty cool.
42:53
And a bunch of those kids ended up going on to play at the
42:56
Division One level. So that the talent was there,
43:00
they just didn't always make the best decisions.
43:03
I've got one more before Bob probably wraps us up here and
43:07
this is this just came into my mind when when you were talking
43:13
referee it. We're in a we're in a new world
43:17
where sports betting is kind of like all over the place, fans,
43:23
all that. Even at the lower level, I'm
43:26
sure there's really no lines that you could bet on or
43:28
anything like that. But at the higher levels, do you
43:31
think there is any like trace of like referees betting on games?
43:36
Obviously we've heard like bigger headlines in the NBA, but
43:40
do you think it's an not an epidemic, but just like is it
43:45
casual or is it like a thing that does happen amongst crews
43:49
in Power 5 or just Division One basketball?
43:56
I'm going to, I'm going to choose my words carefully here.
43:59
We were required this year and this was the first time that
44:04
this was required, but we had to watch a video on sports
44:10
gambling. And so basically the NCAA and
44:17
the the powers that be do not want referees gambling pretty
44:24
much on anything kind of across the board.
44:30
I would be lying if I told you we weren't aware of specific
44:34
game lines or, or kind of who is projected to win.
44:39
That's kind of the nature of the business.
44:42
So we are aware of that sort of stuff.
44:45
Nothing. I will say that for the most
44:49
part, nothing malicious happens. You know, we make calls as we
44:53
see them. Like I said, we make mistakes.
44:55
We're humans. But as far as nefarious
45:00
activity, I think that with it being so regulated now, it, it
45:06
makes it a lot harder to skirt the rules.
45:09
And you know, like the when when Iowa State had all those kids
45:13
that were like using their kids on their dorm floors information
45:17
and they ended up finding them. I think with the regulation,
45:21
it's a lot harder to do what Tim Donaghy did, for example.
45:27
There's just way more eyes on it and they have the data.
45:31
So like Jonte Porter, my guy, when when you see crazy numbers
45:37
come in, they're usually, you know, people are tipping is
45:43
tipping somebody off. So I think for the most part the
45:47
regulation is helped in we're aware of it.
45:50
It goes on like they, you know, they tell us we have to, to
45:53
referee to the the final horn. If for whatever reason we have
45:59
to shoot free throws in a 30 point game, they tell us we have
46:02
to shoot them. We we can't just call the game
46:07
because there could be money on the line.
46:10
So we're aware of it, but I don't think it's seeped in too
46:15
much. Yeah, and I to, to echo the
46:19
technology side of it, I, I guess I can bring a little bit
46:22
of an element of my day job in here.
46:23
I work with some large sports books and they have an insane
46:27
amount of anomaly detection stuff on the back end where
46:30
they're tracking down to the IP address, down to Geo location.
46:34
They have Geo fencing. It's insane the degree to which
46:37
they can figure out when fishy stuff is happening.
46:43
And it's, it's, it's very difficult, I think to get away
46:46
with some of that stuff now. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a
46:51
very, very different world now than it was even five years ago
46:54
with all the sports gambling stuff.
46:56
But Zach, I think that's, I think that's going to do it for
46:59
us today. Before we get out of here, is
47:01
there anything else that you want to say?
47:03
Any final words that you have for us or for the fans?
47:08
Bob, I, I appreciate the, the forum here.
47:13
I think it's important for us to have this dialogue.
47:16
I think that we've been conditioned as officials to kind
47:20
of shy away from these opportunities.
47:23
But I think more and more it's important to, to connect, to
47:29
communicate, to let you guys know you were human.
47:32
This is kind of what's going on. This is, this is our perspective
47:35
on things. So I do appreciate that.
47:38
The final thing that I'll I'll leave you with is my favorite
47:42
refereeing clip of all time is when Ron Garretson throws out
47:47
Rasheed Wallace. This is from like 90, I don't
47:51
know 9899, but this is the the infamous whack get out.
47:57
I know RG personally. He's a great guy.
47:59
So funny to ask him questions about that.
48:02
But if you have time and you can pull that clip up, that's a that
48:05
one is worth watching. We will will link to it in the
48:08
description of the show. Perfect.
48:11
Yeah. Thanks again for coming on.
48:14
That's going to do it for us today.
48:15
Once again, a quick shout out to our sponsor, Auntie Maze Parlor.
48:19
Visit www.auntiemaze.com for a full list of their upcoming
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You can buy these. Wildcat Country.
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48:36
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48:56
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49:03
Chef. Cocaine's a hell of a drug,
49:05
baby. We are all coke and no joke,
49:07
Wildcat country. Let's rap.
49:14
Just turn my camera.