Latest / Tiff Talks / Addiction Doesn't Care How Smart You Are | Brett Kessler
Transcript
- Tiffany: so what do you think people get wrong about addicts? Brett Kessler, DDS: wow. Going right into that, huh? people think it's a weakness of will and you just make bad choices. And I can tell you story after story of times where I could not overcome the obsession to use drugs. And and and it's it's funny, I'm a I'm a doctor, okay. I've got five years of undergrad, I've got four years of dental school, I've got two years of residency. So what is that? Ten, ten years of of of of post high school education. I'm not dumb, you know, but but yet there were times in my life, especially during active addiction, where had no power to say no. And people think it's just a weakness of will and we make bad choices. And But I I could tell you when the obsession hits, my brain gets hijacked and there's no stopping. Tiffany: Yeah. And we were just talking about that with me podcasting. we we don't do in between really well. Yeah. We wanna I love that. Yes, Brett Kessler, DDS: Yes. Yes. We run to extremes, that's for sure. Tiffany: we run to extremes. And and I think it's a superpower when harnessed in the right way. You know? I Brett Kessler, DDS: One hundred percent. Tiffany: mean, that's how we get really, really good at things, and that's how we persist beyond what I think a lot of people can't tolerate. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. And when I hit my bottom in nineteen ninety eight, so I'm old, okay, and that's kind of a good thing because Tiffany: That old? Brett Kessler, DDS: I wouldn't be alive if I didn't get sober. you know, I I got as I got better, I got inspired to live my best life. And everywhere in my life I wanted to, you know, showcase excellence and and show up as my best self. And so I I did that with my recovery. Where I dove right in, and and I just I just wanted to learn everything about it and I wanted to pick the brains of the people who were most successful. I wanted Tiffany: I know, God, this dog. Ugh. Brett Kessler, DDS: to you know s have a you know be in the best practice. I wanted to be the best dentist I can possibly be. And, you know, and that led to you know, starting my own practice in a very non traditional way. people o okay. Tiffany: Tell me about that. What is what is non traditional? Brett Kessler, DDS: Well, I I was a partner with a dentist downtown Denver and the partnership didn't work out. And I I didn't see as a partner, I didn't see myself wanting to be his partner for the rest of my career. And so I opened up a a scratch start practice in a different part of Denver, with a very clear vision of what I wanted to do and you know and and we were, you know, pretty much fee for service from the get go. we took a couple of plans just to get started, but we quickly got out of them and and I built my practice in a very mindful way, a very intentional way. and you know, and I became a you know, a known entity in in the Southwest of a place to go. You know, named top dentists in all the lists and you know, Denver Post named me the best dentist in Colorado one year. and and and it was all because of my relationship based philosophy, you know, that you know, Dr. L D. Panke, who you know, was more of a philosopher as or I would say equally philosopher as as as excellent dentist, you know, had a saying. I never had a tooth walk into my office. It was always attached to someone. learn or learn about that someone, get to know that someone and you might get the opportunity to treat their oral condition. And I took that to heart. and so I I dove into, you know, the human psyche, you know, from my own self and you know, and how can I best connect with my patients. And so there's a lot of training on emotional intelligence and a lot of team building and and surrounding myself with the right people. and, you know, creating value for services that many don't value. And and the reason I didn't take insurance was you know, I didn't want to have a third party in between our relationships with my patients. And and and so I attracted people who were very health conscious and were willing to invest in it. But when I started it, it was in a in a lousy part of town or a very unknown part of town when people, my colleagues would say that's a Not a good place to start, or you need to be on every single insurance plan. and you need to have high volume, and and I didn't want any of that. you know, for my own recovery, I wanted to practice along the lines of my purpose. So I was in a very serene state, right? And and and that's what I did. It wasn't easy and it wasn't perfect, but I I loved it, absolutely loved it. Tiffany: So top dentist named in all these lists and you gave it all up and you're not practicing now, is that right? Brett Kessler, DDS: That is right. I wouldn't say I gave it up, but I I evolved into something Tiffany: Or yeah, yeah. Evolved. Brett Kessler, DDS: different. And so I I practiced I started the practice in 2003. we sold it in two thousand fift two thousand eighteen. And so it was the year I turned fifty. And remember I'm old. Tiffany: You're not that old, jeez. Brett Kessler, DDS: the year I turned fifty it was twenty eighteen. I I Started asking myself some midlife questions. What did I want to do with the second half of my life? I want to live to a till I'm a hundred. What do I want to do with the second half of my career? Where can I make a bigger impact? and and you know, so I started exploring that. And so that was the year that we decided to sell the practice. We were starting to get burned out. My wife is an orthodontist and we practice together. and so that was the year we sold the practice. That was the year I did my first Iron Man. at the World Championships in Kona, Hawaii. So at the age of fifty it was a bucket list item was amazing. it was the year I decided to run for the board of trustees for the American Dental Association. And it was all on the foundation of me celebrating twenty years of of sobriety. And Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and so I so I so I sold it and and then I worked for the the new owners for a couple of years and and saw again it wasn't really you know they were they were changing the philosophy of the practice and and stuff like that. And I saw I really didn't need to be there anymore. I've fulfilled my obligations and they bought the practice. They have the right to do whatever they want with it. And and I have the right to to to not stay. And so I moved on and started working with a friend of mine in a different part of the Denver area. And so I worked with him maybe half a week for a while while I was on the board of the ADA. And as my board assignments, you know, rose, my practice, my ability to practice, you know, just kind of faded down. And when I decided to run for president, it was a quite a year because running for president of the ADA is it's like running a campaign for public office. And so we're recording this a few days after the the elections and And in twenty twenty six, so make sure we we we we mark that. But you know, and so you know, I had to raise a bunch of money and I had to you know hire campaigning experts and communication experts and I had pods of people working on my behalf all over the country. and so it just kind of evolved into I can make a greater impact, you know, than I could p you know, sitting chair side. Sitting chair side, I can affect one person at a time. And as I rose in leadership, I found I can affect communities, I can affect, you know, millions of people, I can affect policies for the country. And so I you know, all on the basis of the experience that I had as a practicing dentist. So I c I I did step away from the from from clinical practice. And I do miss it. And I may go back. Who knows? I kept my active my license active. Actually met with my my old boss for lunch yesterday and Got to, see the practice and see everybody and see and it's like, so I may be filling in for him every once in a while just to, keep satisfying that itch. So Tiffany: Amazing. I had no idea that it the being elected to the ADA was so involved. Like I had no idea. That's crazy. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. that was a a great experience though. So again, all on the foundation of of my recovery. And you know, and and I started you know, really thinking anything is possible if if and because we're so obsessive with things that we're passionate about, we can accomplish these things. And so, you Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: know, it was never in my vision to be president of the ADA. but at that fifty year mark I did I I rate these visions out every five years or so. And and in the vision, it said, I want to maximally give back to the profession that has given me so much. And and the genesis of that though is when I hit my bottom, I called the Michigan Dental Association for help. And and they answered the phone and and guided me towards help. And I feel like that phone call saved my life and then it gave me a life and it allowed me to get get better with dignity. Okay, so here I am f twenty years later, wanting to give back maximally to the profession that has given me so much. And it didn't say I wanted to be ADA president. but but every decision that I had now in front of me in the in in the present, is it bringing me closer to that vision or further away? Am I contributing maximally to the profession or am I not? And so it helped me. choose what kind of commitments I wanted to take as a board member and where I wanted to contribute to the to the to to the profession of dentistry. And when it came time to decide if I wanted to run for president, is it maximally contributing? Absolutely. and, you know, my campaign team were were just amazing. I surrounded myself with some amazing people. But, you know, with the addiction history and I was known I built my whole reputation in organized dentistry on the well I'm the wellness person, and and I I did a lot of advocacy to make sure that we have resources. but I didn't want to lead with that as president. And I wanted to be known as a leader. I didn't want to be known as the recovering alcoholic or addict. And my my team is like, no, Brett, that's your superpower. And, you know, and you know when you share about it. you're an example that you can get better and live a great life. And and when you and they kept saying, when you win, not if you win, when you win, what a story that would be. You know, because Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you were at rock bottom and now look, you've reached the pinnacle of the profession. And and I I never took that for granted. Honestly, I'm I'm gonna be tearing up because I'm so grateful that Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: I was able to contribute in that way. all because someone answered the phone. Tiffany: I I think Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha. Tiffany: when I when I got through rehab, you know, I did seven days of detox, I did 30 days inpatient, I did however long IOP is. so I like did rehab like really hard. And when I got out, I was like, they need to make this for people that aren't necessarily like substance addicts. Because what people don't realize is rehab. Only a very small part of it is actually about substance use. most of rehab is about how do you build fulfilling relationships? How do you communicate better? How do you handle stress? How do you sit with discomfort without trying to avoid it or or you know use in our case or you know, social media or shop or all these things? And I just think. in our society, like everyone could use like rehab, you know? And and for me it was the greatest gift I've ever given myself. And just like you. It's where it all started. It's where the all the the deep reflection and the like my self discovery journey started. Brett Kessler, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I feel I found my purpose through the work that I had to do to get sober. And and I believe that's, you know, I I've been around I've been sober 28 years now. And and Tiffany: Congratulations. Brett Kessler, DDS: thank you. I just celebrated a few weeks ago that that anniversary, because it's really important that I remember that date. And but but I've been around long enough to see so many people that I got sober with and so many dentists that struggled with substance abuse that aren't aren't with us anymore. And you know, and I'm I'm so grateful that for whatever reason I, you know, I I I'm still here, but I feel that reason, you know, there's some whatever universe, whatever you want to call it, but I I believe I've been spared to because I have a purpose to fulfill. And and and that's what I try to do. And it gives me reason to live. It gives me a reason to to get up every day and contribute. because it's bonus time for us, right? And it's like an extended play on the video game. And Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but I but I try to you know, like I said, maximize my impact and and live my best life every single day. And is it perfect? Far from perfect. Absolutely. You know, I'm I'm a human, I've got I've got issues, absolutely, and I've got struggles and and but I've got amazing successes too. And every day is a new day where I can paint that masterpiece and I do my best to do that. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. You have ADHD, right? Or have you been diagnosed? Never been diagnosed. But yeah. I just like there's Brett Kessler, DDS: No. I've not been diagnosed, but but I can I can do an awful lot of things. Tiffany: so many, like, you know, I think one of the things, like whether it's addict or ADHD, or you know, just who we are, but like our risk for tolerance, like, you know, Cameron always says, you have such a high risk tolerance. but I think that. that it like again leads us down bad paths with like addiction, but it also gives us the self-trust to to be able to shift. like with you to say I am gonna step away from crypto clinical dentistry. Cause that's a big step to go from top of the game to to say, yeah, I mean to s Brett Kessler, DDS: Starting out as a beginner. I started as a beginner again. Tiffany: exactly. And I think, you know very timely within the past three weeks four we've lost four dentists to suicide and and I think it's really important to be able to identify like I'm getting burned out I need a shift and I think where where people get stuck is they don't give themselves permission to to make that shift or they don't trust themselves to to make that shift. Brett Kessler, DDS: We we have a story in our head of how we feel we are being portrayed in the world and and we we do everything we can to protect that image and it's ego driven. And we've got a little momentum too with that, especially if we're practicing dentists. We've got lot of people relying upon us and and and but this story is one of our biggest assets because it got us to some level of success, absolutely. But the story needs to evolve, the story needs to change, because it could be our biggest anchor and our biggest liability as well. And you know, I've met with hundreds of dentists over the years who have been struggling with various things. And you know, and the ones that can get through it are the ones that are willing to give up those parts of the story that is holding them back. And and and there's no flow chart to make sure that this happens. It's it's actually a a spark of grace is what I call it that where you get the willingness to accept the fact that you know that I need to change. And I and I I coin it humiliation to humility. Same word root, very different meaning. When I hit my bottom, it was it was the first time I ever failed publicly. I was completely humiliated, full of shame, embarrassment, anger. How did I get here again? How did I keep doing this? And Tiffany: Tell me tell me more about that. I don't know that story yet. Brett Kessler, DDS: the the the story. The story. I've got two s Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: two bottoms. The first bottom was in nineteen ninety-seven and this was I was practicing in Michigan and I I grew up in Chicago and I convinced my boss in Michigan to let me take my team. I I was in a four f four or five dentist practice, you know, and so I had a team of people, hygienist assistant, front office, you know, and we we all went to Chicago for a I think it was an A G D meeting and I dropped my team off at the hotel and I called my my dealer and I disappeared for the entire entire conference. I never made it to the conference. I disappeared 'cause I I did cocaine, I was a binger of cocaine and I would disappear for days on end and that's what happened. And I had no control but it was it was not something the new or surprising to me 'cause that's how it's been. how it had been for many years, but this is the first time I got, caught and there were consequences. And so that's when I went to rehab. That's when I made the call to the state of Michigan wellbeing committee. And I went to rehab and you know, but when I went to rehab I didn't feel I was as bad off as everybody in rehab. I was young, I was twenty nine years old. Everyone were in their fifties and sixties and you know they had all these health problems, these financial problems, license problems. marital problems. I didn't have any of that. And I felt like just like anything else up to that point, if I needed, if I had a challenge, I needed to overcome that challenge, I would just learn more about the the challenge. And then I would move on. And my plan when I left rehab was to, you know, set out to be the best dentist I can possibly be. And you know, and and my counselor told me as I was checking out, she's like, you know, if you If you you have to do something every day to treat your disease, and if you don't, you will drift back to your old ways. And I'm like, okay, I didn't believe her, but that's what happened. I drifted back to my old ways pretty quickly. And so 14 months later, after many relapses, I I went back to Chicago again for my best friend's mother's funeral. And this is where, you know, we started out the conversation about the misconceptions of what addicts are. So bet this was nineteen ninety eight and cell phone coverage was not very robust at the time. And I'm driving by myself in in Michigan, across Michigan, and there was a a a period of or a s of of several miles where the cell coverage went out. Okay. And so, you know, Kalamazoo to the to the Indiana state line, there is no cell coverage. And in that blank spot, I started thinking Huh, wonder how Phil's doing. Phil's my dealer. And and I'm like, maybe I should call Phil and see how he's doing. And maybe we can go watch a Cubs game. And you know, I started obsessing over Phil, you know, and and as I got close to the state line, you know, I kept saying, I'm gonna call Phil. I can't call him because I know what's gonna happen. I can I should call him, you in this whole angel and devil on your shoulder thing. And as soon as I crossed over that line, my cell phone coverage and it lit up and I could not stop myself from hitting his number. And then I could not stop myself from driving to his house. And I could not stop myself from getting out of my car and going up to his door. And I could not stop myself from giving him money. And I I just I had no control, knowing full well I'm going to a a wedding or I'm sorry, a funeral for my best friend's mother's pass her passing. And and so I made it to the wake and I never made it to the to the funeral because once I had the drugs in my system there were all bets were off. And everybody knew. because they know they had known I went to rehab fourteen months before. And that was my my bottom. That was it. That was as low as I ever wanted to be. And I was humiliated one more time. and you know I went back to the rehab. They you know didn't didn't think I needed more rehab, but I just needed more, little tune up on a couple of things and you know and and you know, but I found help through twelve step programs. And that's, you know, I found that's where I found the solution. And for whatever reason, again, I shifted from that humiliation to humility. And humility, my definition is, you know, is a full understanding of the situation I'm in and willingness to do whatever I can to to be the best. be my best self to get out of the situation. And that's what happened is, you know, and I I learned about, you know, everything I needed to do to change my brain. because my body has an abnormal reaction when when a a substance is put in it. And I can't change that. Even today, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: thirty, twenty-eight years later, I can't do that. but the the real problem is the obsession in my brain that thinks I can't. And I can Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: change my brain. And that's what I work on. and I and I learned about mindfulness practice through through my recovery and and that's what kept me sober. And then that's what gave me the the passion to live my best life and the inspiration to do that and then the courage to go after big things. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah, rehab, at least for me, was was brutal. I I think especially as dentist, or you know, for me, I went from I tell everyone what to do when they listen, you know, you know, like I my team and my kids and to go from that again Your point, the humility it takes to go and have someone watch you pee in a cup every day, and to tell you when to eat and when to sleep and where you need to be and to make your bed and no, that's not good enough. it it was really, really, really difficult. but it's that giving up of control that allows us to recover. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, it's humbling. Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: It's totally humbling. And, and and part of our disease is control. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And we do everything we can. So that's the story, you know. I'm not an addict, but yet I'm an addict. And I'm gonna control, do everything I can to control the the the choice that I might have. And and that's why rehab is so hard. That's why people go to rehab several times. I know people have gone to rehab over a dozen times. And they finally get it. And and I always say the best rehab in the country is the one you get sober at. Okay? Tiffany: Absolutely. Brett Kessler, DDS: Because they are all over the place. And and you don't know what time this what time is gonna be right for you where you're Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: gonna get that spark of grace to to go to humility. Tiffany: I I remember at rehab, I was apparently very difficult. I I was one of the most difficult apparently. They said that they would have meetings just about me. because I'm I am. I'm I can be very manipulative and I was breaking all kinds of rules, but because I am who I am and I do it in a certain way. People don't realize it until later, And I remember my therapist in rehab saying, if you can just learn how to harness this for good instead of bad, you will be unstoppable. Cause I would like, I mean, stupid shit, but like get extra ice cream, you know, or like get it so that I could use the phone, even though we're not supposed to use the phone, or like manipulate my way into like getting on to the internet and just like all these things that were clear rules. But I just I was able to. And They kept saying, every day I'd throw a temper tantrum, I'm leaving, I'm leaving. And everyone would just say, wait till the two weeks, wait till the two weeks. Something magical happens at the two weeks. And before you're like, yeah, whatever. But it is absolutely true. There is something about that two weeks of your brain being able to heal from substance where like the veil is lifted. And I remember being like, Going to everyone and being like, I'm sorry, I was such a bitch. I'm not I'm like I feel better now. I did. I went and apologized to everyone. And then for the rest of the rehab, I was like a A plus, you know, student. But like it is so hard for us to give up that control. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, and it leads to death. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: It leads to death, you know, that epiphany. Tiffany: Or prison. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right, well, eventually, you know, and right. Tiffany: Yeah, because that's what I said. I I looked at myself in my in the mirror one day. That's what made me want to go was like, I'm not made for prison. I'm like 87 pounds soaking wet. Like I'll die, you know. Brett Kessler, DDS: I think I said this to you before, but the only reason you should be in prison is treating patients, treating with for dental with dental services. That's w the only reason you should be going. but that's a reality for us, right? Tiffany: Yes, yes, yes. But but I would've, yeah, it it was. Brett Kessler, DDS: but the amount of drugs that that I was putting into my body, I should be dead. And there were times where, you know, from from the drugs that I felt like, I think I went too far and somehow I got out of it. And there were n Tiffany: And the situations that we put ourselves Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: in, the the crazy situations we put ourselves in in order to obtain the drugs. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, yeah. I would hang out with people that had guns but not badges, is how I called it, right? Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Like driving into like crazy neighborhoods. Like, you know, I remember driving to my dealer's house and being like, this is crazy. Like, like this is absolutely insane. Like that I'm going to terrible part of the neighborhood, you know, Austin, going to this person's house. Who knows what's going on? Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but then there were times at so I I used to, you know, binge all night long and and so the the mornings were scary and you started hearing the the birds chirping and you know, because you knew you had to face the day and what am I gonna do? Am I gonna go to work? How am I gonna what am I gonna say? What lies am I gonna come up with? you know, and I never worked drunk or high and I'm I'm proud of that. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Me neither. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but I can't say I worked of, you know, with with my brain at one hundred percent. detoxed, right? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Or or well rested per se. And so so that that part of the morning was really scary. And sometimes I'd go for a walk or a bike ride when I was living in Chicago and and I'd sit by the lake and just contemplate, you know, tying a a brick around my foot and and going for a swim. and and because I didn't know, you know, I it happened again and I was so damned. depressed about it, so angry at myself and I and I, you know, saw no hope. And and and you know I I never followed through on that, but it was real. It was real. And now in you know in sobriety I love that part of the day. I love it when the the sun is coming up and the birds are chirping. And if you follow me on social media and you see me on top of a mountain with the sun Behind me. I know exactly what I was thinking at that moment. And the picture's there for me. Okay. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but I I look at those, you know, though those time that time of the day is you know the opportunity to to create something amazing. Okay. And I've got this blank page in front of me. I'm gonna write a good story today. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: so it's it's it's a whole different paradigm. But but it's scary when you're in it, and and so many people we can't reach, and that's the sad. Tiffany: Let let's talk about that hopelessness, because I think that is a big part of what is fueling burnout in dentistry. I think that you know, obviously you have to get to a place of hopeless hopelessness to contemplate taking your own life or actually taking your own life. And I I heard something scary. It was like I don't know what the percentage. It was a psychiatrist talking and he said that a lot of people who commit suicide, they're not even like they don't have any mental issues. Like they're not depressed, they're not, they don't have bipolar, they don't have schizophrenia or you know, any diagnosed mental health problems. It's just they reach this point of such deep hopelessness, which is scary because there's that means that there's no signs. And for me, I want people to remember like that is a very permanent solution to a very temporary feeling. Like that that feeling of hopelessness. Even though when you're in it, it is c all consuming and so overwhelming. it passes real and and there's a way out really quickly if you just pick up the phone, if you just realize that this is just a piece of your life. You know, I think dentists they make their whole identity dentist. And so when their practice starts failing, Or they get into debt or even if there are other aspects like the marriage part, it's such a small part of who you are. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, and there's a lot in there when with what you just said that we need to unpack here. Tiffany: That's what I feel like when I'm talk when you're talking. I'm like, my god, it could go in seven directions right now. Brett Kessler, DDS: You know, so first of all, you know, dentists we're the smartest of the smart. We are the highest achievers. We're we're smart enough to have not gone to medical school, right? 'Cause we wanted to have a life. And and but we don't know any different and and so the trademarks of of high achievers is we don't show signs of weakness, we don't ask for help, we don't fail, and we do everything we can to protect that. and then when we see the failure and many of us have never failed, we don't know how to react to that. We don't have the resilience muscle built yet, especially the younger generation. And and that scares me. but the younger generations that are coming in, they're much more open to talking about these kind of things. Where I'm Gen X and baby boomers, we we don't talk about it. We bootstrap and we we figure it out on our own. but I think that when the people who decide to, you know, quietly make that horrible choice, it's it's to kill the pain. They're in so much pain and they don't know how to deal with it. And, you know, I've been been trying to, you know, talk about my story for, you know, since about 2001 is is when I started talking about it publicly. and and with the hopes that people will, you know, say, hey, there there is hope. You know, I don't Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: have to do, you know, that that ultimate decision. and, you know, and and and I think those little words in those memory banks in the memory banks of them, maybe hope would hope I would hope would would would save their life. and there there are people who will say, well I don't I don't see any hope. I I don't have any reason to live. That's a s that's a cry for help when they're saying that. And I feel like Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: that's the, you know, people we can reach. We can't reach the ones that quietly make the decision. We can't reach them. All we can do is plant seeds and hopefully they th those seeds will germinate in time, which is which is scary. the the eighty two percent of us are showing signs of clinical burnout. That's an ADA stat. And Tiffany: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, part of my you know, initiatives when I was president was to make sure that that, you know, the people had resources and we had a a resource at the time. called Better Help and it was basically a free therapy app that you can access real therapists FaceTime on the phone. You know, you didn't have to, you know, close down your office for Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: two hours or tell your boss you're going to to see a therapist. You know, you could do it, at the comforts of your own home in your own office, in the privacy of your office and get help with dignity. And it was a free service. And unfortunately it wasn't used. Tiffany: That's the that's so frustrating. Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha. Tiffany: It is so frustrating because I built Dentor Match, right? And I thought okay, 82% of people are burning out. I get DM after DM after DM of of people asking for support or what do they do. And so I I'm like, okay, I'm gonna build this thing. And then people sign up and there's right now there's 70 mentors, like high caliber. Alan Mead's on there, Bill Klater's on there, really, really high-caliber mentors. So what do you think? How do we make that gap close? Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. So there's there's that personal sense of failure is the big is one of the big objectors. The other one is the fear of getting in trouble. And you know, so the you know, losing your license or getting a ding on your license and then not being able to get disability insurance or health insurance and it's real. and so another thing that that we did during my term as an officer is you know started talking with the dental boards to make them much more supportive. because many are very still in the very punitive mindset. And, you know, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's funny how at we as dentists and and most, you know, the board dental boards are populated by dentists. It's not, you know, they're not legislators or, you know, there are some peop you know, you know, non dentists on board and stuff like that. But For the most part, we're just colleagues and you know, and it's funny as as a dentist we'll do anything we can to help our patients get better, but we kill our own wounded. It's horrible. Tiffany: Yeah, it's it's horrible. It's both of us I have been target of online unfriendliness, as I like to say. And it's just like why like the ego, I think, and then this sense of who people think we're supposed to be. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: You know, like I have this idea of what a dentist is supposed to look like. And when you violate that for me, I'm gonna attack. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. and it's sad. It's sad. And had I not had the tools that I've been using for twenty eight years, you know, it would have been a really tough, tough year as president. And even now I still get targeted by people who have no no clue, but they think they know it all and they know nothing. They really know nothing. And and and I have to say that out loud and that's how I how I get through it. I'm I'm I'm why should I be affected by someone who knows nothing? I know what I'm I know who I am, I know what I stand for, and I know what I'm able to do and I know what I've accomplished. And I'm not you know, I don't regret a minute of it. You know, and when I decided to start going public with my with my my story I I it was it was funny. I was like, because we don't talk about this. it's in Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: back back in the late nineties. No one talks about this. It's it's it's the secret. Sweep it under the rug. And but I was like, you know, I'm this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. What am I ashamed of? I'm I'm so Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: happy. I'm so proud of who I'm becoming. And I'm ashamed of some of my actions during my active addiction, but I'm not an active addiction. I'm in recovery. And and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I'm making a big difference in the world now. Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And I'm proud of that. And so I started talking from that perspective. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and it it was couched under you know, methamphetamines became a big deal in the the early into mid two thousands and I became a methmouth expert. And not not something I strove to be. I wanted to be veneer guy, not methmouth guy. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but it but but but I I made it a one of my purposes to educate our colleagues on how to treat a person with addiction in your practice. And it was funny when I, you know, would would poll the audiences that I would be speaking in front of, you know, who's got addicts in their practice? Raise your hand. And, you know, maybe one would, I'm like, bullshit. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: It affects 10 to 15% of the population. And if we look in this room, there's a hundred people here, 10 to 15% of you, 10 to 15 of you. might have a Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: a problem. Okay. It's in your practice. And so I, I I use that as an avenue to share that recovery's possible. And it's not a weakness of will. It's it's an actual, you know, disease of the brain and an obsession of the brain and a disease of the body. And and you know, and and and it became, you know, like became known for that. And that's how I Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I kind of rose through the the speaker circuit and then, you know, into the leadership realm. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. And, for anyone who's listening that is in active addiction, one thing that you should know is nobody cares about you as much as you think people care about you. Like, you know, I in in terms of like what are people gonna think about my addiction? Because like I shared, you know, I share on social media, you share on social media. I shared with my patients very openly that I'm in recovery. And every I've never once ever gotten a negative response to that. You know, so this fear that like I have to hide it, or like I'm I'm people are gonna think X, Y, and Z about me, like all of those fears for me at least were were unfounded. and I think Like you said, a lot of the states now, like Texas, they took the question off the the when you renew your license where it says, I have been to rehab or I, you know, anything like that. So so for me it didn't affect my license. I didn't I didn't have any negative ramification. I was never in trouble with the board. So you can get help without the fear of losing your license. Brett Kessler, DDS: Not it's not like that in every state. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: And so Bobby McNeil, who's a state board member of Texas, spearheaded that whole thing. And he he's an amazing human being, and so compassionate. He's not he doesn't have addiction, but he one of his colleagues committed suicide because of that question. And so Tiffany: Same. Brett Kessler, DDS: he's made it his his purpose to to try and make the boards more supportive and more punitive. And it's starting to spread around the country. And it's really you know, a good momentum to have. And but but mental illness and and addiction, it's rampant through our profession because dentistry is really hard. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And it's hard on our on our on our psyche, it's hard on our bodies, Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and it's hard financially. It's and back when be before COVID, US News and Report was like ranking dentistry as the number one job in the country, not healthcare, overall the best job in the country. And I was like, Whoa, where's this coming from? And so but Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: it made it seem like it was a license to print money, easy money. And, you know, all these these new dental students coming in, you know, had these expectations that they get out, they're gonna be this is great. And it's it's hard. And And and until we're recognized for all the stressors that we go undergo in the medical profession, we've got more than anyone. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and and I think it's reflective in the level of mental illness and addiction and suicide rates. And I was gonna say about you know, the protecting of the shame for, you know, from from you know, showing any sign of weakness, you know, the addiction, mental illness, Burnout, it's a human condition. And most dentists qualify as human. Most. Okay. Tiffany: Mo most. I would say so, yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and that's that's and I'm saying that jokingly, but but we feel we're above that. We feel we're above all of that. And it's not. It's it Tiffany: Mm-hmm. We do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it gets us, and that's the scary thing. And that's when I was in rehab. I went to a rehab that was specific for medical professionals. And so I was the youngest one there. Right. And so I didn't relate to those people that are, in rehab already. And this is what I love when you came on the scene. you you showed up in my Instagram feed and I was like, man, this is great. The new generation. I can't Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: reach your generation because I'm old now. Okay. Even though I got Tiffany: not that old. Brett Kessler, DDS: sober when and when in my third year of practice. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, I think you you people will relate to you because of this, you know, the circumstances de jour are much different than my circumstances Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and so I'm so grateful for what you're doing and you know and I know Tiffany: Thank you. Brett Kessler, DDS: you're making a difference. Even though you may not get direct feedback, people are hearing you and and they're they're hearing that, hey, you know, challenges are out there, but I can overcome them because Tiff did. And I love that. Tiffany: Well thank you. Following in your footsteps, you know, I think you you and Alan and Bill, Pave the way, if I didn't see you guys as examples, you know, I'd pro I'd probably still be using, you know, like if I if I didn't have Alan talk about it on on his podcast, I I would. I probably I still would because I needed that reassurance, like someone else did it and they're fine. And in fact, not they're not even fine, they're thriving. And Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: and I told myself when I was in rehab, like when I get to the point where I'm ready, I want to be that for someone because it saved my life. Like it a hundred percent saved my life. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, and I know personally I went through what do I do now? And I know you went through that too. And you made some pretty courageous decisions as well. One to come out and s on Tiffany: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: social media, but two to start what you started and step away. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: just like I stepped away from my partnership because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it wasn't gonna be good for my psyche and it would have put me at risk. For going back to the old ways. I think you did the same thing. You know, it just wasn't right for you. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: the courage that it took to to make these decisions. We're basically reinventing ourselves. You know, we reinvent ourselves when we get sober. I reinvented myself when I moved from Michigan to Colorado. I reinvented myself when I became an owner, then when I became a an associate again, then I started my own and then sold it and every time you have to take those courageous steps Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and everything was built on before and the prior one. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. I think rehab, it gives you this sense that you can reinvent yourself. So it makes your tolerance for bullshit go way down. people say you're so brave for leaving. and at no point did I ever feel brave. I was just like, this is intolerable. I'm not gonna keep doing this anymore because This sucks. And I know from the rehab experience, like I trust myself. I trust myself enough to reinvent again. Like I did the hard thing. This is gonna be cake. I mean, it's not cake, but like the like going back to the the humility, the humility of like giving that up, that's way harder than like starting a new job or giving up. I an identity, at least for me, was do you think that was harder than than your pivots after? Brett Kessler, DDS: Well, perspective wise, I mean I face death in the eye. Okay. Everything Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: after that is is much smaller potatoes, right? Tiffany: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: But still the ego creates this this sense of worth that that you know, and and I think we've talked about this a little bit already, but we identify as a dentist. And and really for me, dentistry is what I do. do it's not who I am. It's a big part of, you know, my life, but I'm so much more than that, you know, and and and it's my job. It's not my life. And and but so many people can't separate that. And so stepping Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: away from it is a is a bold move. And many can't Tiffany: Mm-hmm. It's scary. Brett Kessler, DDS: many can't see what who they are without that as part of their identity. Tiffany: So how do they like, okay, so the person who's listening that's like, yes, that's me. How do you untangle? For me, it was COVID. COVID is what like, you know, people were planting gardens and learning guitar during COVID. I just had a nine-week crisis of identity. That was my COVID because the practice was all I had. My marriage was falling apart. my home. felt very unsafe. I had given up drugs and having that taken away from me. that's when I went through that reckoning of dentist is not who I am. Brett Kessler, DDS: Mm. I so when I l left the my term as president of the ADA, I was faced with the same decision, who am I? Or, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I had to figure that out. Do I want to go back to clinical practice? What else can I do? where can I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: make the biggest impact? It's the kind of questions I I I asked. And we're such control freaks, and I know Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: we've talked about that already too, that we want to control every aspect of the outcome. If I move over to something else, it's gotta Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: be successful. Otherwise, God, I'm not gonna do it, you know. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but I've I've learned over the years that When I'm in action, the right thing appears. So when I'm on a path, I'm walking this path. I may not know where I'm going, but I've got an idea what I'm going towards. Angels appear on that path with a message. And they say, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Brett, you're doing, you know, something really good. But you might want to look over here. I think you'd be really good at it. So I go over there and I start doing that. And then I keep moving, or this angel says, black clouds on the horizon, better turn around. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and I and so I look for the angels with the message. And they come Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: in the most unexpected places and the most unexpected times. But the key is I'm walking. I'm walking. I have to be in action. I can't just sit and wait and my and sit on my chair Tiffany: Yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: and watch TV or doom scroll on on my phone for the answers. I have to be Tiffany: Yes, yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: in action and I have to be uncomfortable comfortable in being uncomfortable with where I'm at. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and so okay, so if you're you're stuck and you're a dentist and so if you own your practice, sell it. I sold it at the top, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: okay. and and and sell it and and go work somewhere. Do a whole different practice model or step away for three months Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and travel, do something. So I had a Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: another lesson that I had is a a family friend of ours, a dentist, developed Parkinson's in her like early fifties and and she had to retire early and she ended up, you know, passing away, you know, way too soon. But she said, Brett, don't wait till your retirement to live your life. Don't make the mistake I made. and and so I I took that to heart. So I you know, I take breaks, I take vacations. I took vacations when I was in a a practice owner and, you know, you are your most valuable asset. Take care of yourself as such. Tiffany: Mm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: You cannot pour from an empty cup. And if you're not happy, you're not thriving, what's the point? Tiffany: Exactly. Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: Find your purpose, find your bliss. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Every time you work beyond your capacity, which I think is most Dennis, like we are working, we are pushing ourselves beyond our capacity. And I think every time you pushed yourself beyond your capacity, you are taking a loan out on debt. And if you continue to do that, that leads to where you are making choices, like hope, you know, from a place of hopelessness. And so like your point about action. do something. Like do something. You know, I I talk to people and they're like, I can't leave. I can't leave. I can't leave. Okay, that might be true, but what can you do today that's gonna make sure you're not in the same place three months from now or six months from now or a year from now? I think it is that inaction that that where people get stuck. And like my my boyfriend, he we are. Polar opposites. And one time I asked him, I'm like, do you worry that I'm a liability? Because I make decisions so differently. I, it's a hundred percent on this feels good, let's make this decision, Where he can sit there and he's, you know, in a like, what do I do? And I look at him, I'm like, just make a decision. Like, It'll either be the right one or the wrong one. And if you the right one, then yay. And if it's the wrong one, then you course correct. But like I think staying in that like, should I stay? Should I go? Like make a decision. And if it's not right, then you can course correct. Brett Kessler, DDS: And fail, fail fast. Right. And then you can move, you know, move over and try again. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but I think where people get stuck is that they want control of the outcome Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and that leap of faith is too much. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And so I along the lines of what you say, I say the same thing, but what can you do right now that'll make it a little bit better? Because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: these situations that you're in didn't happen overnight. You're not gonna fix it overnight. So what can you do to make it a little bit better? And then tomorrow, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: let's ask the same question. What could we make it little bit better? And before you know it, it starts to pick up momentum where it's puttering around, but then it will go up exponential and it will get better. And, you know, the one percent, one percent every day is a lot, is a big change over time. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and and a lot of times we are you saw I'm a I'm an endurance athlete, and so a lot of times, you know, i so if I do an Iron Man that's in October. the way I get to the finish line happens in December the year before. It doesn't Tiffany: Mm, mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: happen, you know, two days before the race. It's it's the money that I put in or the effort that I put in ten months before, eleven months before. And so you're you're just kind of you know, just showing up going through doing the the the deal and you may not feel like it's making a difference. But but eventually you'll see that it is. Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and but it but but but it takes time. And a a series of courageous small steps. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And that's why it's so hard, 'cause many Tiffany: Yeah. And you and you you never know. I think the question that I started asking myself is like what is the cost? Like what is the cost of this live maintaining this? Like what what is the cost of keeping my office? For me, I was I was going more and more into debt. I had no nothing left for my kids. I was on Candy Crush for as soon as I got home till I went to sleep. And like the only time I would put it down was like if I actively had to do something. Like if I had to shower or I had to cook or, you know, like I was so unable to sit with my own discomfort that like I was just like compulsively playing Candy Crush. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: And so like when I when once I left and I got through it took about two months to get work through that pain. It was it was very painful. but it was like my my world went from black and white to color. it you know, it was like whoa, like the cost of it was so immense and you know I don't do the emotion regret. very well. it's not one that I identify with, but one thing that I do regret is that I didn't leave sooner. Like that I I stayed for two years after the point I knew I was done, but still hanging on. Brett Kessler, DDS: But I think that's part of the process to, you know, when you had to make the decision, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: because you would have always wondered if it was the right decision. And, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and I have a saying or it's in the recovery world, you know, you can always tell an alcoholic, you just can't tell them anything. We're we're experiential learners and and we Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: have to experience our own level of pain to fully understand why we were on a bad path or why we need to make a change. And pain is our biggest motivator. And and pain when it exceeds that threshold and everyone's got a different threshold. we're forced into a a new path. But Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: what if we can make that path much more proactively? And I think now with the tools that I have, I I've been able to do that several times in my career in my life. And you are in in in the same on the same path of being able to reinvent. And and you will probably reinvent several times in your life. but but you're in action right now Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and the the messengers are are the angels are there with the messages and and they come in, like I said, in the most unexpected times and places. but but the key is we're looking for it. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. What what have you like, what did you used to believe that that was completely wrong or that through this process you've you've 180 your opinion about or you know something that you learned that you like didn't think Could have been true. Brett Kessler, DDS: the definition of success. I remember the first time so growing up when I was a kid, I would, living in Chicago, we'd get Chicago magazine, which was the the the Society magazine, and they'd have top docs issue and I'd look through the top docs. I remember it was like ten years old because I wanted to be a physician. I'm like, someday I'm gonna be a top doc. Okay. And the first year I got to be top doc, I thought I had made it. I thought it was it. I took out a big ad. I spent a ton of money and And I'm looking around like, okay, nothing's changed. Nothing's changed at Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: all. you know, and then, you know, I don't know, 20 some years later, I did the Iron Man and I crossed the finish line, bucket list item. I'd wanted to do it since the 80s. Okay. And I did it in 2018. Across the finish line, I like, I thought this big epiphany would come and the world would open up. And it didn't. And and then same thing with being president, okay. Every day was an amazing day. And and then you know, I got to the end and I was like, okay, I'm still Brett. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: You know, and so you know, the definition of success, you know, because you can't take it with you when you die, right? You know, yes, I want to leave you know, I want to live a comfortable life. I want my kids to live, you know, a comfortable life and I want them to to have things that I didn't have growing up and and I want to, make sure they're set, for for their future. but you know, health is wealth and and part of health is mental health, a big part of it. and so, you know, I moved to Colorado in nineteen ninety nine. I was a little over a year sober, with the intent that I wanted, you know, I have such a affinity for being in the mountains. It's just such a spiritual place for me. And I do it as much as I can. And that to me is a is a is a successful day. And I may not have all the material things that I think I should have to qualify for certain levels of society. and but but you know what? I I I found peace and I have to remember that. The definition Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: of success may not be material or monetary. Tiffany: I think Evolutionarily, we are supposed to go through that transition it is pro-social to have the first part of your life being people telling you what to believe and how to act and what to feel. because how are you supposed to learn to work within the tribe? You know, like so when you're little, you you follow the rules so you can function productively and and well within within the tribe. And then you kind of get to that. mid twenties. And that's when everyone's like, wait, I don't have to believe what my parents think. Or that's I I think this is my theory. This is not any, but where you start to to believe what you want. And I think that is the process like of speed running that that gets you to the happiness and defining your own success. And realizing that living for me, like I lived my my parents' life, you know, like they I wanted so badly to make them proud. That Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: was my entire driver until about 35. I wanted that was my number one thing. I wanted to make my parents proud. And then I built this life. And it was a life that they were proud of. But like I was miserable, you know. I I didn't I didn't like being the boss. I didn't like running a practice. I don't care about looking at spreadsheets and and then it that was the painful process of like, okay, well then what do I care about? That's hard. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. And I g I learned a lot from having kids and, you know, being active in their lives. you know, I I I've and and I got sober before I had kids. So they never saw me drunk or high, which I'm very happy about. But they've seen me be an asshole more than I care to admit, 'cause it's part of being human. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. How old are they? Brett Kessler, DDS: twenty six, twenty four, twenty, and seventeen. Tiffany: Wow. So when they so my kids are 10 and 12, how did you talk to them about this? Cause I talk very openly. And part of me is like I overshare. Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha ha. Tiffany: I mean, obviously like oversharing is part of my my personality, but there are some times where I'm like, okay, well, maybe this is too much. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. let me let me finish about about the Tiffany: Yeah, yeah, please. Brett Kessler, DDS: kids thing and then we'll come back to that 'cause that's a great, great topic I want to talk about. But, you know, when I I look at I also wanted to appease my parents and you know, and and make sure that I had the right job so they would be happy for me and stuff like that. And but then having kids, you know, I my my goals shifted for them. You know, it wasn't about status or wealth. It was about I want them to be happy, unconditionally. Whatever that looks like. And so, I I'm sure you were the same way. When I grew up, if I got anything less than a than a B, then than an A, I mean, I was grounded. I lost the car. I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: mean, it was, you know, and I was much different with my kids when, you know, and they had their own internal drive to, you know, to to succeed. And they they themselves were much harder on themselves when they didn't get the grades. And I would just ask them, I did you give your best? Well, okay, then that's it. What can I do? You know, we need do we need more resources for you? You know, do we need to get a tutor? Do we need, you know, what do we, you know, c how Tiffany: Mm-hmm. yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: can I help? It wasn't about like, you failed, fuck you, you're you're dead. Okay, you're dead to me. That's how I felt I would be if I failed, Tiffany: Yes. Mm-hmm. That's how I thought too. Brett Kessler, DDS: right? And so, you know, so I I learned, you know, just to be, you know, supportive of their wellness. Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and and and they are watching us. We can tell them what to do, but they're learning Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: from from how we are in the world. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. And and I'll tell you one story and then we'll go back to the when I when I told my kids. When I won the election, big day for me. Okay. I mean, there's c couple thousand people in the room. My two youngest daughters were there and they they were part of the campaign. And and so after I won, I was just kind of standing over by the side and just, you know, really reflecting about how far I've come in life, or twenty some years before I was ready to kill myself. Today I'm elected president, elect of the American Dental Association. And the kids saw me over on the side and they came over because they hadn't had a chance to talk to me yet. And they gave me a hug and Dad, we're so proud of you. We're so proud of you. And and I told them, you know, I thanked them for coming and I and I said, Make sure you, you know, talk to your older siblings, your your brother and your sister. dad, they know you won. We texted them. They're very happy for you too. I'm like, no, no, no. Tell them about the, you know, the process. Tell them about the speeches I had to give, the questions I had to Tiffany: Mm. yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: answer, the lights, the music, the energy, the, you know, the whole joy de vie, you know, and and Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and because what I'm realizing is that this was the hardest fucking thing I've ever had to do in my life. And I'm so grateful that you were there. And my Tiffany: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: most proud moment wasn't that I won that day. Is that I recognized I became the parent I want always wanted to have. Okay. That was Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: the most beautiful moment for me that day. And there's and my brother was there taking pictures. He's a f fabulous, talented photographer. And he got pictures of that moment. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And it's it was it's a beautiful, just a beautiful memory for me. because I taught him go after big things if you're passionate about it. And and, you know, even if you there's a chance you can fail. you grow in the process, you become better when you go for big things. And and that's Tiffany: Yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: how I feel that that I've taught them through my actions, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: not through the achievement, because I think they would have been proud of me even if I didn't win. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but you know, but that that's what I, you know, how I parent. And so then I look back, so I'm looking down at my kids and how I want nothing but I have unconditional love for them. It doesn't mean I always like them. Okay, because they can piss you off, right? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: But but I want them to be happy. And then I look up to my parents and I I think that's all they ever wanted from me too. They just may not have known how to express it the same Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: way. But as, you know, we all grew older, you know, I mean, I value the friendships I have with my with my dad and my mom who had passed away. but it was a it was a much different relationship. And not saying as equals, I always need my mom, you know, I always need my dad. They're my you know, it's just part of it. But it's like, you know, it's a much different relationship as we got older. And and I did a lot of personal work to get sober and and and and grow and they never wavered with support for me. And I'm so grateful for that. Even though I was failing in the in the in this d in this idea of what I thought success was in their mind. I was failing Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: miserably. They never s they never stopped supporting. Tiffany: I think for me, my parents they wanted me to be happy, but their their solution to that was to have a stable, good career. You know, so it wasn't like the message that I received was not be like we want you to be happy. My the mess message I received was we want you to be successful. And even it was a very poignant moment in my mom and my relationship. And and it's been hard like the growing pains of me going from like a child parent relationship to an adult to you know adult child parent relationship, like it's been really challenging for for my me and my mom. My dad passed away so I'm not talking about that relationship, but there's a very poignant moment where she was visiting and she said to me, She's like, You are such a wonderful parent. You are showing me That when I parented you, all I cared about was your physical well-being, that I didn't understand how to care for your emotional well-being. And watching you with how you care for your kids, she's like, is she's like, you know, my Asian mom's Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha ha. Tiffany: way of saying it was, I don't know where you learned it, but you're doing a good job, you know? Like, thanks, mom. You know. Brett Kessler, DDS: No, but that that's my point though. I think they wanted us to be happy. They just didn't know how to express it because it's a generational thing. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and as we get older, you know, you you had that experience with your mom, right? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and I've had, you know, very many dis you know experiences like that with my parents and you know and and No one's perfect. And, and again, we're alcoholics. If our kids came with manuals, we would have never read the manual, right? Okay. We know it all. So Tiffany: Yes, a hundred percent. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's like, you know, you get by, but you learned your initial parenting comes from how you were parented. All Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: right. And so now you're parenting. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and imagine if the best role model you were was the mom that sat on the couch and played Candy Crush all day, right? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: What a gift they have now to have you as a mom in recovery to Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: show them to live your best life. You know. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. I think we parent from the place of pain. we parent what we didn't get. I know for me, you were saying that that grades really mattered when you were growing up. Same thing for me. That was like the only thing. And that's where I learned where You perform a good performance equals love. And and so that is so painful for me that I'm swinging the other way with my kids. I think where it's like, I don't I don't care about your grades. Like did you like you said, did you try your best? Like, are you proud of it? You know, I mean 'cause Brett Kessler, DDS: Work. Right. Yeah. Tiffany: that my there's my younger one, he had a bad grade and he, you know, his thing was like he felt bad. I'm like, okay, if you felt bad, let's fix it. what can I do to support you? If he didn't care, I don't care. Like, you know. Mm-hmm. Right. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Right. Right. And what'd you learn? What could you have done better? How are we gonna change yeah, so it's that's great that that you're there and you're present, you're asking these questions in a much different way. than than we were parented. And so that then that brings me to when did you tell your kids? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And you know, and and so I look back to my first experience with drugs and alcohol. I was thirteen. I drank a beer, I smoked a joint, and I kissed a girl all within about 10 minutes of each other. And no doubt. And I wanted to feel that way for the rest of my life. Tiffany: Colin, what a great day for you. geez. Yes, my God. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and so and I tried. I tried to feel that way for the rest of my life and it didn't work. It worked till it didn't. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And then I, you know, but I still thought that it did. And that's when the consequence was, but yeah. but so so I Again, in my experience too, I know that it, use starts in middle school. Okay. Especially there there are studies and I know we're gonna be talking with Alan Mead pretty soon, but University of Michigan has a a long longitudinal study over decades about seniors in high school, their drug use, related to fear of drugs. And so when the fear is high, drug use is low. When fear is low, drug use is high. And we're in a situation right now with especially with marijuana. you know, with Colorado, we're in the epicenter of where it all happened. You know, we're the first state, you know, and and what there there is very low perception of danger with marijuana. So use is high. And the my middle school principal who's my neighbor would talk about every day he's he's you know, confiscating bags of of of marijuana from the kids. Every day. Tiffany: That's crazy. Brett Kessler, DDS: And I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, I should call the police. That's what I'm supposed to do. But I can't doom these kids to, Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: to to horrible the horrible system that is going that they're going to be in when they made a Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: mistake. And and and you know, Tiffany: It's so hard. Brett Kessler, DDS: right. And and so it's it's a it's a pediatric problem, okay? And in fact, I'm I'm so passionate about kids' welfare. I was a founding board member for recovery high school. here in Denver called 5280 High School, where kids who have substance abuse problems and major family traumas and and issues now have a place where they can go. Okay, Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and be supported. And and I remember I'm I'm going off on a tangent, but I had Tiffany: No no please. Brett Kessler, DDS: to testify before the school board and one of the school board members is like, how can you actually think looking and and looking a parent in the eye and telling them they're gonna be doomed to go to the drug e school. And I said, do you mean East High School, which is the biggest high school in in downtown Denver? Because that's a druggy school. no, you mean George Washington High School. Because that's you know, and I said, if you don't think those schools have drug problems, you got blinders on, man. Okay. But Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: the difference is we're gonna have a place where we're gonna be talking about it above the line and not sweep it under the rug. Because I promise Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you that all of these schools, East High School, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, they're gonna be sending their students to fifty two eighty high school to get support Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: because they don't know what to do with them. It's a kid's problem. So Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: with that in mind, how did I tell my kids? What did I tell my kids? so I would go to a a a recovery conference every year starting in two thousand four and the the recovery conference has a whole family program. So my wife is not an an alcoholic or addict, but she's an Al Anon and her you know, everyone in her family seems to have some kind of substance abuse problem. And it's no wonder she married me. and and so and and and they have a kids program that starts at the age of seven, and it goes through the age of twelve and then they got a teen program, the age thirteen to eighteen, and then they got a twenties program because it I mean it's just and so the Betty Ford Center, which is a a big rehab you know, created a a children's program after a a man named Jerry Mo started it. He saw that these kids of addicts have no support and we don't know what to do with them. And so he developed this amazing program. And so, you know, like I said, I got sober before my kids were born. Do I put them in the program? They're not gonna, you know, have the trauma of having an addict dad or, you know, and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it was the best thing I've ever done because Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: they helped explain what addiction is as the disease that it is. 'cause Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: some of those kids in that program had to revive their parents when they overdosed. They had to call their grandma to to come pick up because they knew mom was drunk or dad was drunk and they didn't want to get in the car with them or Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: they were seriously abused by the active addict and things like that. And so they had trauma that needed to be addressed where my kids were like, what the my d we didn't have that. but Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but what they learned about was the disease. They learned about how to identify emotions in their own selves and their own moments and put a name Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: to it and what to do with it when it comes. And and and so that first year my my daughter was seven and and Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and and I didn't know what to tell her. I go, you're we're going to this program. I don't know what it's gonna be. I don't know. It was my first time at the program too. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and and she started asking questions about it. And and dad, were you an addict? Were you I'm like, Yeah, I was. And she's like, Wow, she gave me a hug, right? I'm glad you're better, you know, and is very compassionate. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And it's all of my kids have been through that program every year of their life. Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: And their emotional intelligence is off the charts compared to mine. because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Brett Kessler, DDS: it it was ingrained in them at an early age and that's part of their their their their growth. Okay. And as a result, you know, we are openly a recovery family. And, you know, and and you know, and I'm not saying my kids are sober. They drink, they smoke pot, I'm sure. I hope nothing else, but they've had their issues, they've had mental health issues. And I've been there to support them. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but my kids have been, you know, they have friends with substance abuse issues and and I can help guide them to support their friends. some of their friends' parents have substance abuse issues that I was my my s my son in particular had a a girlfriend's dad who would smoke a lot of crack and knew it wasn't right and and I started mentoring that dad. through sobriety, that my kid Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: my kid, you know, was able to introduce me to, Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and and and but they also know and like I said, they've had problems, they've had issues, they know how to talk about it. And they know when they need help, they know when they need support and and and they take care of themselves first and foremost, which is something that I didn't do and I'm still not very good at, you know. Tiffany: That's awesome. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: So, so kids are smart, they know. Uh-huh. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: And, you know, and and so, you know, if you're you're wondering how to tell your kids, and this, you know, not necessarily for you, but anyone who's listening is, you know, i if you're in recovery, how do you tell your kids don't throw it under the rug because Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: because, you know, they start at the age of ten, eleven, twelve. Okay. Cause that's what my Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: middle school principal would talk about. Okay. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: so I want them to know that, you know, that it's genetic and that I had Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: a problem. I don't have a problem now. I do a lot to stay better. you Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: know, so I can be a good parent for you. you're gonna be challenged with decisions to, you know, just from your peer group, it's gonna happen. You're not gonna be Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: absolved of it. Please make good choices. But if you're Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: in trouble, unsafe, or you decided to make some bad decisions and you went too far, You you gotta call me and I will pick you Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: up and I will not berate you or put you in trouble. but but Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I want you alive because there's stuff out there that is much much more dangerous than than what was out there when I was in my heyday of my addiction. And Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: and then I ask do you wanna talk about it? Do you wanna I just you know Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: laid some big things on you, any questions? You Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: know, and and but keeping that line of communication open. has been the the best thing for the family. Tiffany: Yeah, that's amazing. And and I I want more information about the that program. Brett Kessler, DDS: huh. Tiffany: So my kids I talk to them very openly any questions I answer honestly but as age appropriately as I can, Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: you know. but yeah that sounds really good in tort terms of like giving them the skills because it doesn't always Translate when it comes from mom. But when it comes for someone else, it tends to be like, I believe them. I'm like, but that's what I just said. Like, but you didn't say it like that. Okay. You know? Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. But the the power of being in a peer group of their peers Tiffany: Mm, yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: is I think the magic of this whole thing. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And the Betty Ford program will never turn a kid away. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and they do it in Colorado they they've got a extension where they do it once a month and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you just have to be there with a a sober caregiver, whether it's a parent, grandparent, you Tiffany: Okay. Brett Kessler, DDS: know, guardian, whatever. but the the conference I go to specifically for doctors and and healthcare professionals in recovery, you know, they've got this and it's just part of the it's part of the conference. You you drop your kids off at daycare. It's not daycare, it's it's really fun. They so one year we were going and I was we we we put it on the the conference here in Colorado and I was the chair of it. big surprise, right? but it was like a thousand people come to this, right? And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: so the year before we were struggling financially, and I told my wife that, you know, we really can't afford to go. And I'm going this year, I gotta work the whole thing because I'm putting it on next year. Let's just take the year off. And my oldest daughter's like, Well, I'm supposed to graduate from the Jerry Moe program, so I have to go. And then my son's like, Well, she's going, I'm going. And then I guess we're going. And that's they that they drove it. That's how meaningful it is to them. Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: And some of their best friends are are are people that they've learned to or they've met and grown with because they they share things much differently than they share Tiffany: Sure. Brett Kessler, DDS: with the kids on the playground at home. You know? And it's chill it's July, end of July. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When is that this year? I wanna go? July. Brett Kessler, DDS: I'll find it out and get you. And we could put it in the we could put it in the store notes or the the sh the the podcast Tiffany: Okay, not for a while. Yes. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: notes too for anyone who's considering because it's a wonderful program and it's it's cheap and it's just an amazing experience for me and and and so and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: every year the the kids give a like a talk of their own journey to the to the group. And you know, my son gave his talk. And he was he was chosen by the peers to to share his story. Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: And I was like, Whoa, so many things that I didn't know about he shared. And then my daughter was a couple of years later, she was also asked to to to to be the the person. There's a thousand people in this room and this like, you know, seventeen, eighteen year old is just with so much poise. But my daughter came up to me right before the her talk and she's like, Dad you might hear some things that may be a surprise to you. And you know, just don't be mad. I'm like, shit. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: Cause sometimes the kids are like, you know, they talk about their their dad or their mom when they're Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: in active addiction and they were, you know, you know, obviously not doing very esteemable as a parent, and some Tiffany: Well yes, Brett Kessler, DDS: things that you don't want to be out in the laundry. I'm like thinking, okay, what did I do when, you know, Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: But was nothing like that. It was she shared and this made me feel so like helpless, And her depression was like like off the charts. And she was smoking pot to, you know, and I didn't know. And I still I'm a tear up when I when I hear this. And and I'm across the room and she's up on the stage on a podium. And right before she was done, I'm I got tears all over you know, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I mean, it's like and everyone, you know, my wife and I were just like w we didn't know and but I'll never forget again the same daughter that was at my president thing. she looked at me at the end and we're like very far away, you know, and I go like this to her and she goes like this back to me and you know, like you know, just me telling her how much I love her, you know, through that Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and she recognized it right there. And it's one of those moments I'll never forget. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, then we've had some great talks about that since, you know, but that would have never happened had they not had that recovery foundation themselves, even though they weren't actively addicted. You know, they may be using, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but you know, they they use to soothe. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: so anyway, it's great. It's a great program and it has allowed us to thrive as a family and be able to navigate the the rough waters of what it takes to grow up in this culture, in this era. and you know, the challenges are much different than than than I had. But yet they're Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: still there and they've got tools now and I'm very, very glad and grateful for it. But again, had I not Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: gotten sober we would have never had those tools. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and I made it the most important thing of my life, because it is. 'Cause it if Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: without it I would be dead and I wouldn't have the kids, I wouldn't have the w the the the marriage, I wouldn't have the you know, the ability to make an impact and difference and so it's foundational. Tiffany: Amazing, so inspiring. I I think, you know, when you when people say that, it you're like, how am I inspiring? But but I think it's important to acknowledge, amazing, that that is gives me ideas and inspiration and I wanna go and I wanna take my boys and I wanna be able to provide that, you know, because I don't think they do have Have that ability to talk. I know the boys' school, they they kind of discreetly pair them, you know, or like yeah, intentionally, right? So Brett Kessler, DDS: Intentionally. Yeah. Right. Tiffany: so my little one, his best friend, his his parents are divorced also, you know, and and and my older one now his new best friend, his parents are are divorced too. And so they They do have that, but they don't talk. I I asked my little one, do you ever talk to your best friend about it? He's like, No. Why would I do that? You know? But yeah, Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: it's it's hard. Parenting is it's so hard, you know, it's like You love so much, but you're just like, you're bothering me. Go away. Brett Kessler, DDS: That's why I say we've got unconditional love for our kids. But w that doesn't mean we'd always we always like Right? Tiffany: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: But that's just life, you know. Even our best friends Tiffany: It's just like Brett Kessler, DDS: piss us off, even our siblings piss us off, our parents piss us off. But it's like it's just life. We've got Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: we've got agendas and everyone does too. And sometimes they don't intersect. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: so but yeah, it's but it all goes back to though, you know, when I was at my bottom When I was contemplating do I want to live or do I want to die? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I looked death in the eye. All these things are, yeah, it's important, but Tiffany: Mm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: perspective wise, it's we can get through this. Tiffany: Yeah. So my one residual thing from rehab is I still vape like the nicotine. I'd never I'd never smoked before and I didn't drink coffee. And you know, like you go to rehab and all you have are cigarettes and coffee. So I freaking became a chain smoker and And a coffee drinker. Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha. Tiffany: And it is Brett Kessler, DDS: So I I I found I never so I I loved cocaine and I loved drinking and I smoked crack, okay, and but I didn't like smoking cigarettes and it seemed to go hand in hand with drinking and c and cocaine. Everyone knows cigarettes, but like they disgusted me, okay. Tiffany: Really? Brett Kessler, DDS: And vaping wasn't wasn't a thing back then, okay. It wasn't Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: invented yet, but I just never liked it, okay. And but but I would have a cigar every once in a while and I like cigars, but it was more of a status thing. Cigar and bourbon, yeah, look at you, fucking you know, Mr. High Class Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: drinker, you know, socialite. and I I still smoked cigars after I got sober. Like every Friday night I would go to a meeting with some friends and then we go and smoke a cigar afterwards and you know and and whatever. But and I didn't like I didn't drink coffee and I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: didn't do caffeine because Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it was too much of a trigger from the cocaine years. Okay. And so I stayed away. Tiffany: yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and so I moved to Colorado a few years later. was smoking a cigar in a hot tub in a snowstorm with some of my buddies. And we're just like just like really smoking the cigar 'cause it's snowing so hard. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And I came in from came inside. We were sitting outside in the snowstorm and I went inside and I sat down. I was like, I feel buzzed. And that scared the hell out of me. And so that was the last cigar I ever smoked. and then but then my athletic endeavors led me to cocaine not cocaine. To caffeine Freudian slip. Tiffany: Yeah, Cappy. Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but it led me back to caffeine and, you know, and I drink coffee and and do you know, like when I'm doing races and things like that and training I'll I'll do caffeine if I need to. So yeah. Tiffany: Yeah. I it it's like one of those things where I'm like, I should quit. But I don't know, it's still a good coping mechanism, I guess. Brett Kessler, DDS: yeah, cigarettes and and nicotine's one of the hardest things to quit. Tiffany: Yeah, it it definitely is. But well, it is it's better than pills, you know. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Here you go. Tiffany: So where do you want to go next? Brett Kessler, DDS: let's talk about Share in general ways some of our experiences helping colleagues. What about that? Tiffany: Okay, okay. Go ahead go go ahead. Brett Kessler, DDS: so I became the well being chair for Colorado right after I got off my contract with the state licensing board. and so I started being that person that would feel the phone calls. from colleagues that were were hurting. And and so I, spoke at the different organized dentistry meetings and shared that, you know, a little bit of my story. And if you need help, we've got a hotline and I'd write articles in the journal and there'd be you know, classified ads in the journal and people can contact me. So I started getting some phone calls and stuff like that. And and so we had a really supportive relationship with the board. And, early on and so if I can get you know, people, you know, on a good track, you know, the they wouldn't get in trouble with the board, let's let's per se. But part of being on a good track was going through a like a a diversion program, you know, and the state board would would administer it. but I had an agreement with the board that they would get a be on an anonymous track and all they had to do was follow the tenants of the of the contract. And then we found that the the these contracts were really effective in getting people on the right path. Where Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: we had success rates of 75% people who go through this program Tiffany: Amazing. Brett Kessler, DDS: stayed sober and they were practicing great, you know, as opposed to people who tried to do it on their own, three to six percent. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. So if you look at that and translate to dentistry. Would you do fillings that had a seventy five percent success rate or would you do fillings that had a three percent success rate? Tiffany: Right. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, but again, we feel like we're special and Tiffany: We do. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and it leads to to to awful things. And so I I got stories and you know, and there's one guy I worked with who you know, I I I knew him for for twenty some years, okay, and he struggled with with substances, kept relapsing, kept going through these programs, you know, and and after twenty years of of in and out, you know, of of sobriety, he finally got it. You know, but he hit his bottom. it was ugly. It was really ugly. He was doing a root canal on a patient and you know, took some drugs and he passed out while doing the root canal on the patient. I Tiffany: No. Brett Kessler, DDS: woke up in the ER and that was a bad that's the definition of a bad day. Right. Tiffany: That's a bad day. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but and and so but anyway he went to rehab from there again, his fourth or fifth time, and and he got it. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and he ended up dying of a heart attack five or six years later. But those five or six years, he constantly told me this I'm living my best life. I you know, and and he's like, I wish I would have gotten it sooner and like you get it when you get it and that's that's that's what you do. Tiffany: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and that was Yeah, it was beautiful that he was able to do that. And I've g I've helped hundreds of dentists over the the years. And, you know, and I speak about this openly. You do too. You don't know who's listening. You don't know what they hear. You don't know when they hear it. And so we Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: just keep sharing it. So, you know, eventually, you know, someone hears what they need to hear. I have a dental student that I mentor now and I was at a a a meeting in in Washington D C and an ADA meeting. We were there to lobby for Dental issues and and she comes up to me and says, and I was president elect at the time. She's like, I I heard I need to meet you. And I'm like, Brett Kessler, nice to meet you. And she gave me her name and I'm like, What's up? She's like, Well, I'm sober. I'm like, Awesome, dental student. I wish I would have gotten to dental school. And but she had a glass of wine in her hand. I'm like, Well, what's that? She's like, It's ginger ale. I don't want anyone knowing. okay, I I I relate to that, I understand. And she was in her first 30 days of of sobriety, too. And I'm like, right. And you're in in a room Tiffany: It's a scary time. This is scary. Brett Kessler, DDS: full, there's like 1500 people there, right? I mean, it's there's a lot of pressure. She's a dental student, first year, you know, and it's like, wanna go to a meeting? She's Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: like, Yeah. So I found another recovery dentist friend, female. And we left the party and went to a recovery meeting with her. Tiffany: Awesome. Brett Kessler, DDS: And you know, she's gonna graduate with honors. You know, I was like Tiffany: Amazing. That's so cool. Brett Kessler, DDS: so amazing because just because I shared and I didn't she never heard my ta my story. One of her classmates did. And her classmates told her about it. Cause I spoke Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: at I spoke at a lot of ASDA meetings, I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: still do. and and but that's how it works, you know. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And really amazing and and like I said, she's gonna graduate with honors and and make a an amaz she's gonna have a great life and great career to catch it as a dental student, right? And Tiffany: That's so cool. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: she's in a very supportive school where they allow her to do what she needs to do for her recovery and you know, take the time that she needs. But she's still gonna graduate at the top of her class. You know, we're not dumb, we're just sick, right? Tiffany: That's so cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: We're not bad, we're just sick. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: But then on the on the other end of the spectrum, you know, so back in the day we used to do interventions on colleagues and and this one dentist, she was you know, drinking pretty hard. And you know, and some some of her circle, you know, contacted me and I'm friends with all of them, friends with her and everything. And so we did an intervention and her dad was there and and you know and and Interventions are very orchestrated. Okay. And and I'm not an interventionist by any means. And so I I don't do them anymore. I have interventionists that I work with for people who are hitting their bottom. But this one was, you know, w you know, I was trying to get her into one of those programs that, you know, where you can get, you know, get monitoring for success. Right. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And her dad was some former FBI agent said that. she's not I had a treatment center all lined up for her to go to and and stuff 'cause she was really bad. And her dad threatened me. He said, If if the board finds out about her, first of all, she's not going to rehab. Second of all, if the board finds out about her, I'm coming after you. I'm coming after you hard. And I said, Okay, intervention's over. Thank you for coming. 'Cause I'm just I don't I have no stake in this. I'm just a volunteer trying to help. You know, I don't need to be threatened and you know, and I'm sure he had a gun on him because he's f police and FBI and that that's a pretty common thing in in my state. I'm like, Okay, we're done, everyone leave, okay. And she drank herself to death in her, you know, late forties. and that's that's the end result of this. You know. And you know, we can't we can't get to everybody, and you know, even and I say this a lot too, that you know, we have the opportunity to have all the resources at our disposal because of you know that we're you know, we're professionals, right? And and we can get we can get access to things, but sometimes even with all of the the the resources at our disposal, sometimes the the disease still wins. You know? And same thing with cancer. You know, it doesn't matter what your social status or monetary status is, sometimes Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: the cancer still wins. And the same thing with this. And Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, and I try and and I know you try and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's like, you know, those have been there want the best for For for those that are suffering and and so I think all we can do is just just live our best lives and be an example. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. I think what I like I want people to know is I couldn't imagine how much better it is on this side. Like My life is so much better. it it was so hard, the rehab process. And then, talking about that period of time right after you get sober, it's just it's a scary time. I felt like a baby, learning how to go out into the world again. everything was scary. like every time I I went out or did something new, like, can I do this without. being able to fall back on on drugs, but like it's so worth it. Like it's so Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: worth it. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. I wish we could bottle up that feeling and give it in a drink to them, you know? Tiffany: Yeah, it it's so much better. Like life is so much fuller and more meaningful and clearer and And I w I I don't it unless you until you experience the before and the after, you don't know but it's it was worth all of that. pain and discomfort and growing and everything. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. So I was, you know, a a a cocaine binger and a drinking binger, you know. I didn't wasn't an everyday user, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, but I thought about it every day. I obsessed over it every day. Yeah. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Obsessed. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, planning my next binge is really what it was. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: It could be months, you know, I would look on the calendar and plan it and and it's just just it's so nice to be free of that. Tiffany: Ex my gosh, yes, the the amount of time it consumed. So I was opiates, pills, and yeah, you can't so like yeah, so it was like Brett Kessler, DDS: And you can't use that sporadically. That's a that's a daily deal. Tiffany: I would go to work and I was counting the hours until I finished my notes and then got home and then I could use, you know, and and The amount of time planning it and counting, one of the the things Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: that I did was I would bring my pills with me to work and I would go to the bathroom and I count them multiple times throughout the day. And like even though I knew, I knew how many there were, you know, like, but I would I would sit there and I'd count like and then plan like how many days is this gonna last me? Am I gonna be able to get some like the fear of not being able to get the next. like the next stash and like all of that time and energy like now could be used in more productive and happy ways like yeah mm-hmm Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, feeding the obsession is is what we live for. Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And to be free of that is is the biggest gift. And Tiffany: Yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, I like I said, my my life is far from perfect, but Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's a hell of a lot better than it was in nineteen ninety seven. You know. So Tiffany: It was yeah, yeah. So what are signs that people should look for? I know there's a lot of people who question whether they're an addict or not. For me, there was never a question. It was very clear. I didn't ever think, am I an addict? clearly I was an addict. Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha ha. Tiffany: But like what what are c signs that that people can look for and say, like, okay, this is something that maybe I should pay attention to. Brett Kessler, DDS: Well, okay, so if you're drinking, if if if if let's say you're not doing any drugs and just alcohol, because that's the most prevalent drug Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: for all of us, you know, can drink responsibly? And you know, and and so can you just have one? Or you're asking the question, why do you have to drink a bottle of wine at night? Okay, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: is it is it you w you know, unwind from the stress of the day? because we pick up these coping mechanisms along our route, you know, along our path, and and sometimes they're healthy, sometimes they're not healthy. And, you know, if it's growing from one glass of wine at the end of the day to a bottle of wine at the end of the day every night, you know, you have to ask yourself why? And is it healthy? Is it make is it giving me the life that I want? Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. And and and or are we becoming a slave to it? You know, is that second glass of wine, is that bringing me closer to the life I want? Or is it f you know, hijacking me? And you may not be able to tell, but every so often you gotta ask yourself that. Okay. Or, you know, they say if you get a DUI, okay, most people who get their first DUI, they have driven While impaired over two hundred times. Okay. And you got away with it, but then you didn't. A second DUI, absolute you, you have a problem. Okay. That is a that is the what I talk about, the obsession that that you you think it's a good i idea to drink and make the choice to get behind a car. Okay. After you've already suffered consequences. Okay. Second first DUI I give you a a a pass okay but if you get a second DUI you got a problem okay and I'm you're not supposed to you know tell someone they're an alcoholic but there's something wrong there. If there are drugs involved are you using the drugs according to the prescription okay Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: when it says one per caset every four to six hours, okay. are you just taking one or you're taking two? Okay, 'cause you do develop dependence and and dependence Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: is not addiction. Okay. And and but but then, you know, eventually it does. Okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: But can you take it as prescribed? And are you taking it as a coping mechanism or are you taking it 'cause you need it? Okay. I would joke around this is this is really sounds crazy to a non addict, but I know people that would, take their Adderall. But they would they wouldn't take it in pill form, they would chop it up into powder form and snort it. Okay, Tiffany: And snort it. Brett Kessler, DDS: is that taken as directed? I don't think so. So if you're snorting your Adderall, you might have a problem. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: Or if you're crushing it up and shooting it, you may have a problem. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: okay, are you showing up to work? Usually work is the last bastion of of normalcy and that's the last thing to go. Everything and I'm I'm I'm talking about people who are hitting their bottom. if they you know, everything in their life, their world is is spinning out of control, they still show up to work the next day. And when they stop showing up to work or they start showing up late to work or they start missing a you know, or calling it a day after after lunch, drinking, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, to get through the day. Drinking at lunch, you know, that's all frowned upon by the the public, and the and the state boards and the police. Tiffany: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: that that's a problem. you know, and and when you make a choice to use a substance, you know, asking yourself the question, what is this substance doing for me? Okay, there's nothing wrong with anything in moderation. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: There's nothing wrong with it. I'm not I'm trying not to be a teeth aller. You I'm around people drinking all the time. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: sometimes they'll ask me if it makes me uncomfortable and it doesn't. Okay. I don't mind being around people who are drinking. I don't like being around people who are drunk. Okay. It it's I and it because it reminds me of the behaviors that I exhibited that I'm not proud of and I can't watch it. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. So if you make a choice to drink, you know, is it for social and wellness and and or do you have to drink to have a good time? Do you have to have a substance in your body to have a good time? Are there other coping mechanisms that are are I wouldn't even call them coping mechanism, wellness habits that we can use to to feel good. Can we go for a walk? Can we, you know, exercise? Can we read a book? you know, yoga, me, I like to run long distances in obscure places. you know, th those kind of things. you know, can can you shift the the unhealthy coping mechanisms to healthy mechanisms? And if you find you can't, call call someone. Call us. We will, Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, ask you some questions and we have resources for you to get help because once you cross over that line from use to abuse, you know, they they Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: they talk about a a cucumber When you marinate a cucumber, it becomes a pickle. It can never ever become a a cucumber again. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: My brain has crossed over that line and it's a it's a pickle. Okay, it's not a cucumber. It's been marinated Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: and I've used my my allotted human use of of drugs and I can't use it again. But I but I needed help. And so if you're, you know, if you if you're having problems with that, then you know, get the help you need. And we can help you find help with dignity. Tiffany: Yeah. So so walk us through, you know, like I said, in Texas, I didn't have to worry about my license, but let's say someone is in a state where that isn't the case. Like just walk us through what that would look like to kind of like unveil the fear, like that like Brett Kessler, DDS: Uhhuh. Tiffany: worst case scenario, this is what your life would look like if you did seek help and and your license was affected. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. So, I'm getting these calls from people usually people who are concerned about somebody. Okay, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's rare that I get the call like I need help, but I do get those calls too, and it's it's wonderful when they're calling for needing help. I get in to in front of professionals who you know, can help with, you know, their substance abuse issues. Okay. We gotta find out what the extent of the problem is. Okay, yes, I've got my own history of addiction, but I am not an addiction. I'm not someone who can diagnose you for what you have. And so I get them for an evaluation. Okay. So your case, you went to detox. If someone needs to be detoxed, we get them to detox. Okay. And that's first and foremost is keep them alive. Okay. Could you have detox on your own? No. It's too too hard. Tiffany: No, I I I don't it's too hard. I didn't it's too well, from opiates, it's too physically painful. I I tried, yeah, I tried Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. It's a fate worse than death. Tiffany: hundreds of times to detox on my own. and the interesting thing about my story was I went to detox and then I thought I was done. Like I didn't Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: I didn't know what was coming next. I didn't know that I was gonna be shipped from detox to rehab. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go home. And they're like, well and and just to give context, like I had a one year old and a three year old at the time. And and so I didn't think I could go to rehab, you know, and and I I could and I did and I'm so glad I did. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Right. And and thank God that you did, because Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: the absence of the substance does not cure you of your disease. Tiffany: Yes, yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. And that's the the perspective of everyone who's not afflicted. Okay. Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: Or those who are afflicted and don't understand. Okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Like I said, it took me fourteen months after rehab to get sober. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: so so I do what what happen to you as I do small small cells, okay? Let's Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: get you detoxed, okay, and then then let's get you for an evaluation. Let's see how bad you're afflicted. Okay. And then and a lot of times there are issues with the with their license or their job and and I'm the last you know supporter they're gonna get that's not punitive. Okay. And so I say you need to go figure this out. We need to find out, what you need. I don't know what you need. Let's get an evaluation. And so those evaluations could be pretty comprehensive. And because we are so hand skill driven, there might be a neuropsych exam because a lot of the drugs we do, we lose our ability for fine tune, fine motor skills and stuff. So, so we we want to get all that figured out. and so we'll send them to a a usually a treatment center that does the evaluations. And and then right before they go, I tell them to you know pack a few extra pairs of underwear just in case. A lot of times they don't come home for a while. But I don't I Tiffany: Yeah, that was me. That was me. I packed like an overnight bag and next thing I know, 40 days later. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: won't sell I won't sell any you need to go to rehab for 40 days or Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: ninety day. I won't sell that because that's not it's not achievable in in anyone's reality of what's possible Tiffany: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: for them. They've got way too many things cooking in their real life. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and but I want to get their their evaluation and you know and then it's you know so sometimes if if if it the I've I've had people treatment centers send them back home and say they don't have a problem. They need therapy. And that's great. That's it. We're done. You know, call me if you if you need more help. I'm here for you. Okay. But if they they go to rehab at the end of rehab, a lot of times the the rehabs that we'll we'll send them to are specific for healthcare professionals. And so they know that they will have to sign some kind of contract with the the board to maintain their license. And like I said, in Colorado we've got an anonymous track. So if you self report, you can, you know, the board will never know about you. And so the contract will involve first of all, that, are they fit for practice? So the rehab has to tell them that. Okay, 'cause a lot of times they come up from rehab, but they they may not be ready. There's a lot of you know, of of underlying mental illness and disorders that get uncovered that were hidden that you were using to to assuage. Okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and so and dentistry is is very demanding on the on the It's very demanding on the body. And you know, and so a lot of times if if someone backdoored into an addiction through a like a lower back problem, okay, can they manage their pain while practicing? you know, without the opiates and so things like that. So all that has to be considered. And it goes into the contract with with the the the dentists or hygienists. And and so the typical contract is three to five years. they'll have to take random drug tests, okay, where they call every day and if their color number comes up, they have to go that day and, you know, make sure that they, you know, give their sample. And it could be I think that's one of the most powerful levers though, to keep people sober. because it could your your number could come up any time and you know, if and and For whatever reason, we we view our license as our last bastion of of normalcy and we don't want to lose that. And so it's it's a real big big big lever to keep people sober. then we have you know, they the in the contract they would have to go to some some kind of recovery meetings on a regular basis. They would have to have an addictionologist who would be monitoring them, especially if they're on some kind of you know, drug for their like Suboxone or Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: or or whatnot to to manage their their disease. and then we in Colorado we have a practice monitor also that would come in and ensure that you're practicing at or above the standard of care for the state. And and it sucks while you're in it, but at some point it it goes from I'm just trying to be compliant to these are real big tools that help me with my recovery. Okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Because it takes a long time to develop these pathways in our brain that will override the addictive pathways. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and and that's why we have such a high success rate. when you go through a program like that, you get a seventy to seventy five percent success rate. And Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: if you try and do it on your own, it's three to six percent. so you're building these new habits that will not only keep you sober but give you tools to live your best life. And it it it's a lot to go through. But we the only demographics of people in with substance abuse issues in recovery that have seventy to seventy five percent success rates are healthcare professionals and pilots that have to go through this kind of program and drug court. Drug court, which is a two year similar thing, you know, where they got to do the random UAs, they got to do the random Or they gotta go to to recovery meetings, they gotta have an addictionologist and a therapist and all those things. But it's over time. For two years, they're they're they're doing these positive behaviors and it sucks, but their their reality is they go to jail if they fail. Okay. Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: Our reality is we'll lose our license and possibly go to jail and possibly die. And you know, I mean there's there's more to Tiffany: Right. Brett Kessler, DDS: it, but we don't we don't think we would ever go to jail. But I know plenty of dentists that went to jail. Okay. Tiffany: Really. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, plenty. And and that's where I I figured that term out. I go, The only reason you should go to prison is to provide dental services there. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: But but some of them because of the you know, the the the punitive measures of the boards and you know, and their continued, you know, illegal b activities like diverting drugs from patients while they're doing surgery. I mean, they c we can cause great harm. And it sounds crazy, but people, really smart people, make those choices and not Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: because they're smart people because they have a bad disease. And so anyway, the the the programs are are are really effective. They suck and they and they're underutilized Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: because they suck. And we got a lot of people out there who could benefit from them Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: in a more supportive licensing environment, unfortunately. Tiffany: Yeah. But it is trending, right? There there are a lot of boards who are becoming not asking those questions, or not requiring like Denver, like Colorado, you said you can do it anonymously. Brett Kessler, DDS: Uh-huh. Tiffany: So we don't want to scare people in the two. Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. And that's that's the biggest thing is if if the board is supportive, you know, people will be more apt to to seek help and not Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: go underground and do it themselves 'cause, you know, you do it yourself, you're you're you can cause yourself great harm and your patients and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: the innocent victim of the car you hit on the on the on the on the drive home. Okay. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: I mean it's really not good. Yeah. Tiffany: It's not good. Yeah. And and you know, I I talk about the secret club. Like once you Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha. Tiffany: go through this, you there is, there's a secret club. And it's this club you never want to be a part of. But like the recovery community is so supportive. Like, you know, my attorney. in recovery, my psychiatrist Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: in return, in recovery, you get all of these references and and and we take care of each other. And I I remember getting out and like, you know, I already had my my crew, you know, and they're all in recovery and and they're all so happy for you and supportive and willing to share their knowledge and expertise and And it's so worth it. it's so, so, so worth it. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. And then there there are st and on that note, because you're you're people in recovery as professionals, there are studies that show a medical professional going through that program that I I I I just described, they get sued at a much less rate than the regular practitioner. They're better Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: dentists, they're better doctors, they're better lawyers, they're better Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: therapists. I mean, it's just it's it's we have a different level of of connection with our clients than we did before and we're Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: very intentional about it. And so of course you're in with the best. Right? Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: It it's amazing to be around other people in recovery because we may not have been friends before, but we've all been through a similar experience and we we can give that nod and we know. Right? Exactly. Tiffany: Exactly. yeah, yeah. it's like I don't know you, but I know you. yeah. Yep. It's true. It the Brett Kessler, DDS: Ha ha. Tiffany: that shared that shared experience of of you know that I am I'm going to surrender, you know, like Brett Kessler, DDS: Mm-hmm. Tiffany: it is Terrifying, but it is beautiful and wonderful and worth it. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. I'm so glad that you found it. And Tiffany: Yes. Brett Kessler, DDS: I I'll say it every time I see you, you're making a big difference in in Tiffany: Well, thank you. Brett Kessler, DDS: the world with your message and you know, the courage to share it is is is really admirable and inspiring. And you know, you say I paved the way for you, I had people pave the way for me too. Okay. It's been going on for Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: for several decades before I showed up and they they were there to hold the door open for me and they paved the path for me and I hopefully made it a little better. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: for the next generation and as I see the next generation right in front of me that it's the the the the road's getting wider and wider and wider and and we can all go together and it's beautiful. Tiffany: Yeah. I like I I love talking to you. I can't wait. So we're gonna talk with Alan. That's gonna be so fun. Brett Kessler, DDS: Some of my favorite people. Tiffany: Yeah, it's gonna be so fun. So any last things, anything that we didn't talk about that that you're you've got a burning desire to talk about before we wrap it up? Brett Kessler, DDS: I don't know. I think I think we covered an awful lot. Tiffany: I we sure did. We sure did. Brett Kessler, DDS: at somewhere are you sharing some of your experiences with helping people? Tiffany: people reach out yet. I yeah, that so I I am okay. Mm Brett Kessler, DDS: No, but they are reaching, they are DMing you. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. Because it'll be a call to action. Tiffany: so a lot of people are DMing me with burnout. That that's the biggest thing. And Unfortunately, I burnout is one of those things where like you I believe the research believes you you can't recover in the same situation. The you can't recover from burnout if you keep doing what you're doing. I mean, you really you have to drastically change your life. And and for a lot of people I talk to, they're they're either The kids just go home. they just they can't, you know, and it's like well, you either gotta get to the point where you can or you gotta manage, you know. I mean, unf it's it's really hard because there's because of the financial investment that we we put in, like it it is very, very difficult for a lot of people. but I think the thing is. the true statement isn't I can't. The true statement is I can't and maintain the lifestyle I'm living now. So it's like how much Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: are you willing to change in order to be able to not hate your life? Because it Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: you know. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. I get a lot of calls on on burnout too. And the first thing I do is is suggest they get a therapist. Okay. You need Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: some independent professional to let you to help you process what you're going through. And Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: that's the first thing that I do. And you know, maybe some people take it 'cause I don't hear back a lot of times, I'm sure you don't either. Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: but but and I've okay, so I've been sober 28 years, but I've been in Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: therapy on and off throughout those. I was in therapy as president. Okay. There's a lot to process there, and I wanted Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: to be my best self in in that role, and I didn't want to Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: be anchored down with you know, some of the things I had to process. And so I I sought therapy for that. And so I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I I, you know, strongly suggest that. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I also suggest coaching. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Coaching, that yep. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. it's a big one where where people again can independent ideas. So so here's the physiology of our bodies. When Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: we are in burnout, when we're in anxiety or fear, our sympathetic nervous system is dominant. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And sympathetic fight, flight or freeze. That's the only three options. And we have to find ways to get to parasympathetic where we can be in a growth mindset and find creativity and find hope. And so we Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: got to get them out of that, you know, fight or flight or freeze Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, state, a physiologic state. It's real. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and so so therapists and coaching are really good with that. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: you know, coaching may sound better. you know, it's doesn't sound like a failure, like a therapy sounds like a failure, but I I Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: I've gotten some of the best insight from my therapists. Right. Tiffany: It and I love I love being in therapy. I love coaching. and and a big thing like you gotta find the right one, you know, like if you go to see someone and you don't vibe or you go to a few sessions and you're like, yeah, I'm not feeling a shift or I'm not able to open up, like find another one. Like Brett Kessler, DDS: Right. Tiffany: it I think that's something that we don't talk about enough. not everyone is created equal, not all therapists, not all coaches. But when you find that one, like, man, it it's great. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. And the the best athletes in the world have coaches. Why can't the best dentists in the world have coaches? I've Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: had a coach, mentor, or therapist Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: my entire career since I got sober. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. I was able to accomplish my dreams because I had help and I invested in myself. Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: And and so I I'm pretty you know, I'm a strong promoter of that. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: especially in the burnout situations that I I encounter all the time. And and then again I try and help them find small wins. What can you Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: do for yourself that will make you happy today? Okay, just today. What's one little Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: thing that you can do that you treat yourself because you are and I keep telling you are your most valuable asset. Take care of yourself as such. Do not take care of yourself last. And and that's what that's Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have a Brett Kessler, DDS: what I say. Tiffany: I have a practice where I write down everything I accomplished that day because I have a really hard time feeling enough. Like, you know, Brett Kessler, DDS: Uh-huh. Tiffany: my my internal dialogue is it's never enough. It's never enough. Harder, harder, more, more, more. And and so that is a practice that I'm like, holy crap, I did a lot of stuff. And sometimes it's like the like I got out of bed, like I washed a dish, you know. I like I fed the dog, you know, like it doesn't have to be big things, but those are all things that like you accomplish. And and celebrating those little wins, like it might seem insignificant, but it's that. It it's the habit of celebrating that it's about. It's not necessarily the writing of the list. It's like the habit of like giving yourself the credit of like this is enough. Like it's enough. You can sleep now. You can Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah. Tiffany: rest now. Brett Kessler, DDS: That's a that's a beautiful tool. with mental illness, we can't think our way out of it. We have to act our way into good Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: thinking. And and and so something like that, where you get to write down everything you accomplished is a is an action, a positive action that will shift your whole mindset. Okay, Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: it's wonderful. So my my mindfulness program or you know my practice, I guess is what I should call it. I get up in the morning, I meditate for ten minutes. I use the calm app on my on my cell phone. Okay. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And every day there's a new topic that the the the the guide takes you through and you know it's so funny that, you know, you start out by just closing your eyes and and you know focusing on your breath and, you know, maybe I do have ADHD 'cause my brain goes from here to here to here and all of a sudden I'm thinking about something from ten years ago. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: that that's attached to a memory and then I hear, think of your about your breath, remember, yeah, come back to the breath, and and Tiffany: Mm. Brett Kessler, DDS: but it really does quiet me and it allows me to to notice when I'm my brain is spinning, right? And then when I'm Tiffany: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: done with that, I journal for a little bit, any insights that I get from there. and then I I I look at my I'll I exercise but then I'll look at my calendar before the day starts and what do I have on the day? and and you know, are there any difficult conversations when I was in practice? Was there that patient that you really didn't want to see and you're anxious about it all day and you know, and but I would you know, and I would look at at these and and I used to scheme about how I would always try and come out on top, you know, where that has shifted now to, you know, when I'm facing these difficult periods in in the day, you know, in that hour. I I I I say, how can I show up as my best self in the best interest of everybody winning in that conversation? Right? Whole Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: shift from that. And but but I have to do it intentionally. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And then throughout the day, if I'm anxious and I could feel it, your body has markers and you know and signs, you know, my chest gets tight, my brow furrows and you know, I'm ready to, you know, to to to fight or defend or attack. I do, just some breath work really quick to reset and it and it seems to work, but I have to be very intentional about it. and and it's again and and with my goals, things that I I I you know, set out in front of me, you know, I have to do that intentionally or I won't be able to to achieve them. And and it led little small goals to, you know, pretty big goals. and Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: and I was able to accomplish them because of my mindfulness practice. Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. I I didn't know about mindfulness until I went to rehab, there the or really deep dive into what it was and Yeah, change changes the whole way you move through the world when you can understand it, be aware when you're not being mindful, being aware of when you are in the future or when you are in the past, and then be able to bring it back. My mantra, like, you know, is in this moment I am fine. In this moment I am fine. Like when I start to spiral, like that was my mantra from like the moment I got out of rehab is like reminding myself like. I am safe, I am warm, I'm comfortable, I'm, you know, whatever. And and that that one statement. I don't know how many times I've said it through to myself, you know, but just reminding like, okay, bring it back to right here. Like and I'm okay. Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: Beautiful. Yeah. My theme as president, the ADA in my year was the power of now. You know, it was a Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: very intentional, even though I was very future focused on where the profession is going. Decisions Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: we make now will affect the future. And, you know, can we be right here right now with that? Tiffany: Yeah. Brett Kessler, DDS: But I I I share that with my my burnout inquiries. The people that call me, I I ask Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: them, can you wake up ten minutes earlier this tomorrow morning? And do a meditation and see if that helps. Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Brett Kessler, DDS: And you know, and and when they do call back, they say it helps. And and so Tiffany: It does. Brett Kessler, DDS: and when I'm coaching people, that's the first thing I have them do is start a a mindfulness practice. Because you're about to to make some big changes in your life, your brain's gotta be ready for it. And this is priming it up for it. So that's what I that's what I tell my my my people who are in burnout. Tiffany: Awesome. Okay, well, I've got noise going on. And so but but where Brett Kessler, DDS: Okay. Tiffany: can people find you? Where do people go? I know you're coaching right now, so like promote yourself. Brett Kessler, DDS: Yeah, so started a a leadership development coaching business called Dentistry Reimagining. And you can get me at my email address, B I K O D D S at Gmail dot com. and I love you know helping people get through whatever they're going through. my why, my personal why is I'm a catalyst for positive change in the world and I get to express it through This next chapter in my life, and I'm having a really good time with it, and I feel like I'm making a difference. So thank you. Tiffany: Amazing. I I am so glad we connected. I I think we're gonna be best friends for life. I love talking to you and and thank you for for showing up and and saying all the hard things for so many years because it is it is inspirational and I know we don't like Brett Kessler, DDS: Well, thank you. Tiffany: to hear that, but it is. Brett Kessler, DDS: Thank you. I appreciate you. And again, for what you're doing, it's amazing. And I Tiffany: Yes. Thank you. Brett Kessler, DDS: feel there's a bright future with people like you out there taking the taking the torch to the next generation. And listen to this lady, she knows what she's talking about.