Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / NY Attorney to Prison to Ordained Minister- Jeff Grant

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NY Attorney to Prison to Ordained Minister- Jeff Grant · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi. I'm Brent, Cassidy.
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Welcome to the nightmare success in and out podcast, but we
0:09
explore how to overcome your fears.
0:11
And Nightmares is set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring. Sometimes sad, there's some
0:24
humor but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something
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that will help you knock down some of the prisons.
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You built up in your own mind. Okay.
0:34
Nightmare. Success listeners.
0:35
We are back and man am I excited about this guest?
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Because you know, sometimes you read stuff and you think man I
0:42
wish I could interview that guy. Well, Mike moravsky I've got a
0:45
big give big shout out to him. He was a guest on the show,
0:51
probably three or four episodes ago and we were talking a couple
0:55
Saturdays ago and said, hey Brent you you had to Get a read
0:59
up on Jeff Grant, and he gave me a place to go look for him and
1:04
then he gave me his contact information.
1:06
And I was reading his New Yorker article is that my gosh, I've
1:10
got to talk to this guy. What he's been able to do, and
1:16
what his story is, should probably be a book and a movie.
1:19
But give you a little bit of background about Jeff, Grant,
1:23
he, he was a very successful real estate attorney in New
1:27
York. He had a I think was a sport
1:30
injury and I've been out of the different articles.
1:33
I think it was like an Achilles tendon tear, but he got addicted
1:37
to prescription opioids and that red ran him into things that he
1:46
probably wouldn't have done in his life.
1:48
But his he kind of went on to live in the wild side there and
1:51
the markets and everything else but he ended up serving 14
1:56
months in federal prison. For white collar crime, it was a
2:00
small business loan fraud that he committed in 2001 and then
2:06
just started his own re-entry. Earning a master of divinity,
2:09
from Union, Theological Seminary, and the City of New
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York, majoring in Social ethics. After graduating graduating from
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Divinity School, Jeff was called to serve as Inner City Church
2:23
and Bridgeport Connecticut. As an associate Minister,
2:26
director of prison Ministries. Then he co-founded Progressive
2:30
prison Ministries and it's the first of its kind, it's a
2:33
Ministry dedicated to serving people.
2:35
Navigating, the white collar, criminal justice system, and he
2:39
has a support group for White Collar people that are going
2:44
through the nightmare of their life.
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And I was lucky enough to be a part of that last night as a
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Monday night Zoom call. And it's just fantastic.
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It's Jeff and I were just talking before this started it.
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It's a one of its kind, you feel, you know, the empathy and
3:03
the help and the support that you're looking for and it's just
3:09
fantastic that Jeff is using his journey of his experiences and
3:15
being able to help people out. And you know, we had some people
3:19
that were on for the been, you know, out for 12 years and we
3:23
had somebody that was speaking that had been out for you know,
3:26
six weeks or six months. No, it was just a great
3:29
combination of a great group. So before we get into all that,
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So everybody Jeff Grant, welcome and thank you for being here.
4:43
Thanks for having me friend. I'm having having been with you
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last night on the zoom and having you attended the, your
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white collar support group meeting.
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It just feels like it, just a continuation of that
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conversation. So I'm really, I'm really happy
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about it. Well, I love it.
4:58
Glad you made the time. I know you're a busy man and
5:02
you're doing and you just moved. And so your I think you
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everything you do is like I get this action feel from you, you
5:10
know, you don't sit around and wait on things.
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I was curious reading through all the stuff Jeff's that you've
5:18
gone through and and the different steps you took both
5:21
before you had your nightmare happened to you.
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And after growing up as a kid did, what was that?
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Like, I mean, were you the same kind, what was happening in your
5:34
world as a kid? I think of all the interviews
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I've ever done. Get the first one who wanted to
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go all the way back to like the childhood traumas and actually
5:48
to me it's really an interesting story although it's not really
5:54
my story as much as it is a cultural story because I was a
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kid, I grew up on the South Shore of Long Island.
6:03
And I was eating part of this kind of Exodus out of Brooklyn
6:13
that Jews did back then, in the late 50s, early 60s, and are our
6:21
parents were all kind of the same in a way.
6:23
You know, they they were in a strange way.
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They weren't Holocaust deniers, it just never got this.
6:32
Us, you know, I was only born nine years after the end of
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World War Two, all of that was never discussed with us at all.
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It was interested in that, I wasn't.
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Do you think there was a reason what it was?
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It was it a direct you know, decision that that's just not
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something that we're going to go down that path.
6:55
I think that for you know cultural Jews really non or Jews
7:01
who are had limited And observing which most of kind of
7:08
what Long Island was. It was really about a new
7:12
lifestyle. That was The Swinging sixties.
7:14
My parents were were kind of like, my, my father was like,
7:21
Matt Helm and my mother was let my mother looked exactly like
7:27
Connie Stevens. Beautiful.
7:28
Beautiful. And they just wanted to put
7:34
whatever that whole lifestyle behind them.
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And so we all moved in master, these are newly created towns
7:43
out in Long Island. That what kind of dredged up,
7:46
literally from, from the, from the Great South Bay in the East
7:50
Bay. And we were the first people who
7:52
lived there. I mean, we were sand dunes and
7:55
the houses were going up like, like dinosaurs.
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You know, rising from the sand and we grew up pretty much
8:04
without parents, you know, we grew our parents did not raise
8:08
us, you're on about. Okay, we were just friends right
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with our friends and, you know, and it was a in some ways, it
8:16
was a simpler world, you know, kind of ride bikes you leave in
8:20
the morning and you come home late at night but on the other
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hand, without parental supervision, it didn't take.
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We've really had to figure out our own ethics and what our own
8:29
right and wrong was. And then when we got to be about
8:32
13 years old, we found our parents liquor cabinet and I
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remember with my friends in Merrick Long Island which is
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where I grew up, we would we would find a your vodka bottle
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in one of our parents liquor cabinet and then like five of us
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were right our bike. Picks up to the dairy barn
8:58
store, which was a double drive-thru Delhi, which was the
9:02
dairy barn, was all over Long Island and we were five or six
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containers of Tropicana orange juice and then fix it.
9:10
All right? But mix it all up into
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screwdrivers and then sit on the basketball court at dusk and get
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drunk. Yeah.
9:22
I tell the story that almost anybody who grew up in Long
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Island and maybe any suburb, I don't know.
9:27
Yeah. But but everybody relates right
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away, like of course, and this is kind of what it was, you
9:35
know. It was ethically challenged time
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in a lot of ways, where the people who were kind of most
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fortunate had a more solid family structure.
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Yeah, I wasn't like that. Most of my friends weren't And I
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kind of rode the line between being in the AP classes with the
9:57
smart kids yeah but I was a you know I was a cool kid hanging
10:02
out in the parking lot with my friend.
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Do you have siblings Jeff? I do have been younger learning
10:08
younger sister so you were the oldest out of the bunch of all
10:13
this. It was going on at that time.
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I was the oldest and So, there's just a lot of, you know,
10:22
throughout the whole area, throughout the whole, my whole
10:26
upbringing, a lot of her drinking and drug abuse, and
10:30
mental illness, and all kinds of things like that and it
10:33
manifested in different families and different ways.
10:37
But mine ultimately was, you know, just passed that.
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I didn't really ever expect to get free from.
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I don't know that I've gotten free from it now.
10:48
I really don't know. I mean it's kind of interesting,
10:51
though. I mean, you bring that up and
10:52
you it sounds like a free-flowing society basically
10:55
and then you end up being this kid that gets into you know, law
11:03
school and law. And how did all that?
11:06
How did you take those steps out from where you were?
11:12
I really didn't know any other way.
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I mean there was never really any thing else.
11:16
I consider you know. I went to college party my way
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through college. Most people do.
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Yeah, right. Had an Awakening at some point
11:24
in college that I better do well enough.
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And I knew I wanted to go to law school, although I don't know
11:33
that it was for any reason other than having watched Judd for the
11:37
defense on TV. And but I did go straight into
11:45
law school and My my, my drinking and drug abuse.
11:55
Never, I mean, their baited, I mean, it didn't kind of get in
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the way of what I wanted to accomplish, but it certainly,
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there were consequences all along the way that that I've
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been more aware of, I probably could have taken more remedial
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action, you know. Jobs I lost any relationships.
12:13
That did you recognize it Jeff at that time because you,
12:16
because you, you talk about it and That it was kind of always
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around, you know. Then you had the, you know,
12:24
later on had the opioid addiction.
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Dealed, was it just kind of always in your orbit?
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Yeah, I think so in varying degrees, I mean, I certainly for
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most of my friends are from high school and college they stopped
12:45
partying before I did. Yeah.
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And then four and then I would kind of drink or drug in and
12:53
isolation, that wasn't a social thing so much anymore because
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you had kind of been a social world of, you know, going from,
13:02
you know, college, so law school to be attorney and having, you
13:06
know, those after our drinks and clients and all that kind of
13:11
stuff you were around it. I mean there was no escaping the
13:16
environment. Yeah, we thought it was all part
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of Of that. I mean before before I tore my
13:23
achilles tendon and had the surgery, so I was right about
13:28
that. There was a huge 100%, right?
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But before that happened in 1992, I had been Really sober
13:39
for for a pretty extended period.
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I wouldn't say I was the same but I certainly understood that
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I had to kind of like, you know, I, you know, I had to get my
13:51
shit together and, and I did and, and the positive
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consequences was that I was able to move my Law, Firm from New
14:02
York up to Westchester where we had moved at that point
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interrupt. We moved to Ryan.
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I was Raising well, we were raising our children there and
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so I was a more attentive dad I was able to go to school plays
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and whatever there was but in 92 when I ruptured Achilles tendon,
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I went down on the basketball court and hold an Orthopaedic
14:31
friend who was at the local hospital in Port Chester, I
14:34
think. And and I told him that he
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couldn't touch me. unless he gave me a script of 40 Demerol,
14:45
And I have no idea where that came from.
14:49
That wasn't there was there was no fluidity between the life.
14:55
I would live with living the few years before that and that it
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was like automatic. The rules are suspended for
15:03
your. Yeah.
15:04
Now I can do this, this is what I want.
15:06
Yeah and he did and I think you know, let's go back a little bit
15:11
because at that time you had on Our business World, tremendous
15:16
success. I mean, you were a guy in demand
15:21
attorney that took no prisoners and it was the competitive game
15:26
that you were winning in an arena.
15:28
That is very, It's Like Gladiator.
15:32
School were you were in New York, Manhattan, and real
15:35
estate. And that it was that in, it was
15:36
that itself. Intoxicating for you.
15:39
Oh sure. I mean it was a idolator been
15:43
diagnosed with You know, bipolar disorder and I understood that I
15:47
was later that I was self-medicating through a lot
15:50
that. Yeah.
15:51
But all of that, you know, that GoGo real estate and
15:57
communication work and I was doing it was great for my
16:04
disposition and great for my intellect, excuse me.
16:08
But probably the worst thing that I could have done for my
16:11
bipolar disorder sir. Because it was just, it was so
16:17
late nights and stress and irregular and I didn't really
16:21
realize how how much it was eroding my my ability just to
16:27
live kind of a normal life and as the firm grew and does you
16:35
had liked any plus, people is attorneys in there, right?
16:38
There was a, pretty good-sized, a pretty good-sized, right?
16:40
I had I had 20 employees of my own but I was also Counsel to a
16:45
couple of large real estate companies outside general
16:47
counsel. So I was managing their lawyer
16:51
ring and they had lawyers for everything, they had tax lawyers
16:55
and or tenant lawyers. And and so I was the paymaster,
17:01
you know, all the bills came to me and I and and I was a real
17:05
dyed-in-the-wool general counsel, which I amazingly.
17:09
I am again. Yeah, what.
17:14
I love, you know, I loved it. I loved being right at the
17:17
center and kind of being the constantly Airy to a really
17:22
wealthy people and their families, you know, wealthy real
17:27
estate families. So they were living on the edge
17:31
to I'm here. I think that's what's
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fascinating, though. You know, you were in that world
17:36
with people who were making things happen, you were making
17:38
things happen. You know I guess that's also
17:43
when you know the fall is so much more dramatic.
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I think a lot of times for people who had all that going on
17:52
in the world and and then all of a sudden you are in this, you
17:55
know, spiral of I always say that my experience was is when I
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started going through, it felt like I was falling into a deep
18:02
hole and I thought I could grab the edges and the edges just
18:05
kept moving out further and further I just kept falling down
18:07
her down and you know, when this happened for you with the injury
18:15
and you had all this other stuff going on in your world, kids
18:20
wife business, you know, being in the world of the Arena you
18:25
wanted to be in When you started sliding down that Demerol past
18:31
it, did it feel like you were on a slide or did you just think
18:34
I'm coping? I I definitely knew that this
18:41
was maladaptive Behavior, there's no doubt about it, but I
18:46
don't care, I didn't care. Yeah, you know, and the, you
18:52
know, the The Benchmark, the objective benchmarks World, they
18:56
were all clear, you know, I and but I wanted my fix.
19:05
And, you know, as my, as my, as my drug of choice, kind of
19:10
shifted from Demerol to Oxycontin.
19:14
And I was a early victim of the opioid crisis is, although, you
19:25
know, I take care not to ever really characterize myself as a
19:28
victim. But certainly, if you look at
19:33
the, the availability, And the doctors who were writing and ya
19:38
know, it's hard to divorce myself from that narrative, you
19:43
know, I've watched documentaries and I've watched It's been a lot
19:50
on it, that's for sure. A lot on it and, you know, it's
19:53
clear that I was caught up in the middle of it and there was
19:57
no way out. I mean, even back then there was
20:00
no there were very few resources for people who are going through
20:05
that, yeah, they didn't recognize it at the scale that
20:09
we've come to recognize it since But there was a Tipping Point at
20:16
some point where things were not getting better, they were
20:19
getting worse. And I didn't and the physical
20:25
manifestations were huge and I blown up to 285 pounds.
20:31
I look like a guy who had a drug addiction, you know just my
20:36
talar my my I was erratic deter kids or wife think that anything
20:43
or they sit you down and say Hey Dad or husband, what's going on?
20:50
No, no, and I don't blame them. No, no, I'm not saying there was
20:54
any blame. I'm just walking around in that
20:57
world. You know, you might not even
20:59
notice it as much because you're running all the time.
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Yeah, I'm kind of shocking now, you know, that, that nobody,
21:09
that nobody. Well, actually here.
21:11
Here's what happened. So just like jump ahead and then
21:17
we can kind of share it back. When I finally went to rehab,
21:21
and I was sitting in, I was in, I think, still under 15 or 30
21:28
minute check. So, you know, you're in checked
21:30
in these places so that you don't kill yourself and or sore
21:35
or at least. So they're not liable if you
21:36
kill yourself. Yeah.
21:40
Our best friends came to visit from New Jersey and I was in New
21:46
Canaan Connecticut at Silver Hill at the time.
21:49
And I was crying. You know, my whole life that
21:51
just come tumbling down and I said to them, I don't
21:54
understand. You know, we could best friends
21:56
for 20 years. Why why didn't you ever tell me
22:00
that you saw me, you know, doing all this?
22:04
You saw me sliding down and they looked at me and they said this
22:08
is Jeffrey. Must have told you a hundred
22:11
times and I never heard one of them.
22:16
Probably didn't want to hear it. I did not want to hear it and I
22:19
don't recall to this day. I don't recall one but they were
22:23
adamant they so you know it's hard to know what's real or
22:28
what's revisionist sir you know for some of us very blurry but
22:34
I'm curious though. Jeff how did you arrive there?
22:38
Because you know, rehab It fi has so many different paths and
22:43
I think, well, interesting, part of your story is you end up
22:46
there and get sober and then all the bricks fall on you on the
22:52
criminal side I had to be you know it's like a 12 step punch
22:57
almost well. What happened was that the day
23:01
came that I couldn't make my payroll anymore. and which
23:07
should not have come as a surprise but of course I was not
23:10
paying attention at all and I instructed my office manager to
23:17
borrow money from the client has Brooklyn, and which was insane
23:24
because that's the end. That's the end of the rise of
23:26
nuclear button, push, right? You're right that right, the
23:29
end. But I wasn't getting, I just
23:34
wasn't sober enough to realize that and I did it and did it a
23:38
few other times and the investigation started not long
23:42
thereafter. and I defended myself hired an Ethics lawyer,
23:49
and that kind of like we're sliding downward even as my use
23:54
of Oxycontin was increasing and then 9/11 came and that rocked
24:02
me probably because I knew that I was already bothering now and
24:08
it and it felt like the end of the world that's not like the
24:11
underworld a lot of people but But I'm Fell Swoop of one day.
24:16
Yeah, so I'm about two months later, the the SBA was
24:21
advertising disaster. Loans have for businesses that
24:26
had been directly affected by 9/11 and I, and my business in
24:30
Westchester County was, it was in one of the counties that was
24:34
directly, a budding New York city, so my business was I was
24:40
in the zone where I could have been approved, I called them up
24:44
and back they told me that they would approve me.
24:46
It was pretty easy to get the money.
24:50
They despite the fact that they told me that they would approve
24:54
me and filling out the actual application.
24:58
I lied and said I had an office that was about a block from
25:01
Ground Zero. That would read that you were
25:05
borrowing a conference room there.
25:07
So there was some kind of maybe way that you play dead in your
25:11
mind. I think the real point there was
25:16
that one. Yes I had conference you're
25:20
still That is at that location and it was on my letterhead as
25:24
my Manhattan office. Yeah, but I had never but I it
25:27
was relatively new that in that location and I had never used
25:31
it. So there was no economic impact
25:35
whatsoever on me or my firm. The fact that we were unable to
25:39
use that location, right? But but you can just see that
25:43
the rationale was at that time, period.
25:48
And I really did think it was the Of the world.
25:52
And so they did find me two hundred forty seven thousand
25:58
dollars. So the wire fraud partial
26:02
portion of it was the LIE, the money laundering portion of it
26:06
was that I had put a lot of the expenses for the firm on my
26:11
personal credit cards at that point.
26:14
And when the money came in, what I tell you in a fit of mania I
26:19
went literally to each bank and paid off those credit cards the
26:24
day, the money clear. It was, as if I were, I couldn't
26:28
stop myself and I knew better. I understood what that money was
26:32
for operating and not for, you know, they had to see him dead,
26:37
but I did things. I never would have let a client
26:41
do. Yeah.
26:42
And I was crazy. So I did it and so taking the
26:46
money from operating and Answering it to myself and
26:49
paying my personal credit card, that was fundamentally the
26:53
money, the money laundering. So, Not long thereafter, the
27:04
ethics case, the grievance case had progressed to the point
27:07
where it was clear. I was going to lose my law
27:09
license. And I call my Antics lawyer and
27:15
he told me that the jig was up. That was it?
27:18
And I told them, please call them up Helm.
27:21
I'm resigning my law license today and then I went to one of
27:27
my doctor's. I got one last prescription
27:30
filled it and after my family went to sleep that night, I took
27:34
the entire bottle of pills and explaining to kill yourself.
27:39
I tried Yeah, I try it. You know, I all that kind of
27:44
stuff brings her up on my arms because you know, hitting rock
27:48
bottom. Like that is, is a moment where
27:52
people either stay and get worse or it's a new beginning of, how
27:58
do I climb out and from your story, I mean, it's obvious that
28:03
what happens after that, but it's because I had that too.
28:07
I had a rock bottom moment where and and my That too.
28:11
Was I had a we're really, you know, is it was the night before
28:15
I was going down to do the plea and my problem was Jeff as I had
28:21
never thought about what because we'd been fighting the whole
28:25
fight, you go to bed, whether wake up with it.
28:26
I never thought, wait a minute, I'm going to go to prison.
28:29
How do I do that? And how do I live the rest of my
28:32
life, as an ex-felon? I just, you know, started
28:34
feeling bad for myself. And but I caught myself, you
28:38
know, in the fact that wow, Let's be the worst way that I
28:42
could ever be seen by my kids and my wife.
28:45
And you know, I'm a glass half-full guy and it would I
28:48
remember the moment so vividly. And I know but kind of reading
28:53
through your story that had to have been a moment for you of
28:57
what happened. Well, I think at that point, it
29:01
was way more of a coward than you were.
29:05
But it didn't really feel that rational, you know, like because
29:11
I was, I was stoned, you know, I want to be stoned.
29:16
And, and I mean the concept of killing myself at that point.
29:23
I probably my guess is over the course of my life.
29:27
At that point, I was think I was 45 years old.
29:31
Probably subconsciously tried to kill myself 100 time.
29:35
Sure sure. Yeah.
29:38
Yeah. The just how close to the edge
29:40
can I get and in all kinds of different ways?
29:44
Yeah. Playing in the gray area is
29:47
playing with that. Yeah.
29:49
So Over the next few days. I detoxed, I detox to myself
29:58
again. That wasn't a straight, although
30:01
this was more more drugs than I've ever taken.
30:07
I'd be talking to myself, hundreds of times, you know,
30:11
every weekend. You know, I promised myself.
30:13
I'd never do it again. I go through this website, go
30:15
through whatever. Yeah, they're not whole ten
30:18
years and then two days later I have to Go get more right?
30:24
Still I detoxed over the next couple of days and then hold up
30:30
to over Hill and they had a bed for me after after a couple of
30:35
days. And and it went there, and it
30:39
was really a life-altering experience, Not only was it the
30:43
first time that I was going to be put on proper, bipolar meds.
30:47
But at that time, did you were even diagnosed that as being
30:51
bipolar? I don't think so.
30:54
Yeah. So you didn't even know, no not
30:56
formally. I may have expected it on some
30:59
level and certainly, the people who work for me to suspect that
31:02
it because they they knew I was on a roller coaster every day.
31:06
yeah, but It was a you know it was kind of the the shift from a
31:14
transactional way of life to a transformative way of life that
31:19
that's significant. Yeah, I didn't have a career
31:22
anymore. I didn't.
31:24
I was about, we're going to have to sell our home.
31:28
I didn't know what kind of assets I would have, I didn't
31:30
know anything, but I threw myself into recovery heavily
31:38
after seven. We could just overheal.
31:40
I attended, my first AA meeting. And I started going through like
31:46
three a meeting today, pretty soon.
31:49
There after we had to move here to sell the house and I moved
31:55
our family moved from Rye which the beautiful Community, but we
32:04
were six miles away to Greenwich Connecticut, which is of course,
32:09
where everybody who loses their job and has no money.
32:12
Moves to his Greenwich, Connecticut.
32:15
But that's where my a meetings were, what did that feel like
32:20
for you the family, you know, making that move.
32:25
Really frightening, you know, II didn't know if I could pay the
32:30
rent. I didn't know anything.
32:35
We drove around and kind of worst-case scenario best-case
32:40
scenario and we wound up somewhere in the middle, things
32:45
were not good with probably needless to say, things were not
32:50
good with my my now ex-wife. I'm sure.
32:55
Betrayed and didn't understand right?
32:58
Like, my kids were frightened. and, I wasn't really thinking
33:06
about them too much. I was working on my own recovery
33:09
and sober. Yeah.
33:11
And what, and what I was told in a a was, you know, put the
33:13
oxygen mask on yourself first, and I didn't realize how that
33:20
meant I was going to have to abandon, my family were while in
33:26
order to work on myself sufficiently.
33:29
So that I could, I could be there.
33:32
And, and I did that. And I took the a, you know you
33:38
know the I hate to sound too cliche but duck to water.
33:44
I drew myself in and part of it was just because I have nowhere
33:49
else to go, right? And that was a big support
33:52
system for you. Yeah.
33:54
Yeah. And but also it was resonating
33:56
with nature and do something with entik.
33:58
There that spiritually authentic that I knew I felt And I was
34:06
young when I was 12 years old or so, but in the intervening 30,
34:13
some odd years and some have been corrupted by my family and
34:18
life, and career. And, and now I'm, I was kind of
34:21
like back in a place where I felt, I felt seeing or at least
34:29
I felt welcome. That's interesting because I,
34:32
you know, I was able to get into the are dead.
34:35
Program, you get a year off and that's the reason why I wanted
34:39
in was because you get a year off but it's rational,
34:42
behavioral therapy and I was going in thinking that's you
34:48
know, all good and everything. But I'm what my year off and I
34:53
really started understanding that there's a lot to if you
34:58
really get deep into those type of things understanding.
35:01
And I almost think that I'd almost think, I think that
35:03
something like that should be taught in.
35:05
You know, middle school high schools for kids to be able to
35:09
understand what they're doing and how they're doing it.
35:11
Why they're doing it. But I got a lot more out of it
35:15
than I certainly thought I would when I got in for sure.
35:19
Yeah. I was.
35:24
Literally going to AA meetings. Three times a day and not going
35:30
home in between. Those are my instructions by my
35:32
sponsor. Don't go home is death.
35:34
Don't go home, don't go into, don't get into the covers.
35:38
And after about 20 months of sobriety, I got a call from a
35:45
federal agent, two of them, actually, on the phone.
35:48
With me, he told me there was a warrant out for my arrest. in
35:51
connection with the SBA loan and my My fortune statements and
36:00
this was now pretty. He still in the bubble around
36:04
911. And they gave it two weeks to
36:07
turn myself in. And I hired a lawyer and I went
36:10
down to 500 Pearl Street, which was in downtown Manhattan and it
36:16
was like a war zone down there. Still with checkpoints in and
36:22
your military and yeah and and I really did feel like the worst
36:28
person in the world. It's terrible.
36:30
But I turned myself into the we might with my lawyers assistant
36:33
for myself into the marshals in the courthouse.
36:36
And they put me in a holding cell below the courthouse,
36:40
probably for four or five hours in there somewhere.
36:43
And then went upstairs. I got arraigned What's your
36:48
thoughts Jeff? Because you're now a sober man
36:52
going through the steps and then you are arrested and there's no
36:58
other feeling like that. Then when you, when you are
37:01
going through that process, what was going through your mind, It
37:08
wasn't - you know, at that point I was viewing everything as a
37:16
consequence of my behavior and a part of my recovery like a Next
37:20
Step. Yeah.
37:22
After almost like an inevitable next step and and they treated
37:30
me with respect and dignity. I think that I think that most
37:36
of the Court Personnel answer The judge everyone II project
37:43
that they looked at me as someone you know in the legal
37:47
profession that but for the grace of God go I kind of thing.
37:52
And then they sent me home and where I had to wait two more
37:57
years to get sentenced and then report to to prison and then
38:01
that two years, my my ex-wife to kick me out.
38:06
And I met a woman in a with that's not a surprise.
38:10
Probably kind of the way it works in a where I ever that
38:13
one. Whoo, whoo, whoo.
38:15
I'm married to now and, What? So she went through older with
38:23
you, then you went, she went. Yeah, yeah.
38:28
And and II had separated from My Wife and she's separated from
38:34
her from her husband and we clung to one another.
38:38
And, and it was kind of a beautiful experience in the
38:43
midst of all this chaos So to help me two years is a long time
38:49
to wait. I mean I identify with you with
38:52
that because I was 3 years of being indicted and that's that's
38:56
a weird way to live. Also you know you were also
38:59
going through all your steps of recovery but just living that
39:03
way knowing you know that it's probably not good as the end
39:10
result and so when you finally get to that sentencing Jeff or
39:14
you know Owing have an idea what you're going to be looking at as
39:21
far as your plea goes and so yeah, I yeah.
39:26
I think my guideline range was like 21 to 27 months the but for
39:35
the fact that it was a 9/11 disaster loan, I might have had
39:38
a shot at probations the rodeo but there's no way in that
39:44
climate that they were going to do that example, out of that.
39:46
Yeah, for sure. And I was I was third person
39:50
sentenced in the southern district or a disaster loan
39:55
fraud and, you know, it's really remarkable because it's been,
40:00
you know, it's been 17 or 18 years, most of the time I told
40:07
the story, nobody was interested in the SBA disaster loan aspect
40:15
of it just wasn't sexy. Eddie couldn't relate.
40:18
Yeah. Now depend a come along and of
40:21
course it's like everybody. Really?
40:22
Yeah. The PPP and all the show where.
40:25
Yeah, exactly. In fact, I wrote and I wrote an
40:28
article for entrepreneur at the very beginning of the pandemic
40:33
and it was called, I went to prison for SBA loan.
40:37
Fraud is seven things to know when you're taking, these are
40:40
still on money and it was just fourth, most viewed article.
40:47
More per year? Wow, because it was so right on
40:51
top of current. Yeah, it was so relevant and
40:56
it's crazy all of those years. And nobody, what I was talking
41:01
about there was just over 10 plus years and that was an
41:06
asterisk, nobody know, football and that's all.
41:10
So, So I, I did get a downward variance mostly, because of the
41:17
work that I did in a, a and recovery, and having been almost
41:20
four years before at that time. Yeah.
41:23
And I felt that the sentence was warranted.
41:28
I know, I didn't, you know, I wasn't offended by by, by having
41:33
given an 18-month sentence. I was prepared and I thought it
41:37
was, I thought it was fair, I really did.
41:40
So what? I didn't know was that I would
41:43
get designated to a low instead of a camp and that was just
41:48
happenstance, you know, that was just no beds available in the
41:52
camp on the day of his designated.
41:54
Yeah, I know. I've heard that before and
41:56
that's because you don't think that that's the way it is.
42:01
I know, one of the things that you do now is really help walk
42:03
people through those type things because attorneys don't really
42:06
know once that person pleads guilty, they they have no idea
42:10
what happens after that, now you survived that but you know, I
42:14
was at Leavenworth and I think it was like an 85 or 90.
42:19
They were trying to get designated as a low and so they
42:23
created it has aloe, they put the fencing up and the barbed
42:25
wire and the sally port and everything.
42:28
And then they didn't designate it.
42:29
So we were living at Leavenworth as a low, but it was a camp.
42:34
Now you could go in and out because it was a camp to your
42:36
work assignments, or whatever, be on the fence.
42:38
But it had I think there's only like three camps that have
42:42
fences and the rest of them don't, but I think I had
42:45
actually forgotten Jeff that you rattle.
42:47
Oh until you said that, I did read that but I forgotten that
42:52
of course, it was frightening going in because I do some a lot
42:57
of reading. Quickly on what a low was.
42:59
Yes, how different and what is it?
43:03
One of the things we're talking about lows and canvas to this is
43:06
to ex-felons talking about prison camps and lows.
43:09
But they you have you have designated moves in a low and a
43:14
medium and a maximum meaning that on the hour, you have,
43:18
like, 10 minutes to move and he had to be in that place or you
43:21
get stuck in the other place and that in a lifestyle.
43:25
That's a big deal because I, you know, I talk to people.
43:28
You know, my bunkmate for a year was it come from a low?
43:32
And he said, British is so different not to have those
43:35
designated moves like that because your, your mind is
43:39
thinking on the hour and you don't do that in camp at all.
43:43
Yeah, the controlled movement thing is is definitely freaked
43:50
me out for a while. The there were other aspects of
43:55
that? That were not.
43:59
I went with that. I didn't that I really didn't
44:02
expect that. I had to learn a lot about that.
44:05
Would have been different than the campus and so as you said in
44:11
the control movement, they open the compound and then you have
44:14
10 minutes to move across from one place to another.
44:18
And but if you get, if you get caught in the compound while
44:23
whether or when they, when they, when they lock it up, they'll
44:27
send you to the shoe, right? And although send you the
44:30
Headless heads office and then it's his choice, whether or not,
44:33
he'll send you this issue. Yeah, it kind of depends upon
44:37
the circumstances, you know, not everybody who's caught in the
44:40
compound bows to the shoe? Yeah, but it's a Nuance, I
44:45
really didn't want to know anything about Right?
44:48
And does your sentence definitely applied you to Camp?
44:52
I mean, really, it's people have doing 10 plus or 10 less years
44:57
is or Camp eligible but his points, you know, I'm not white
45:02
cause of work last night, but one that you joined in one of
45:06
the we had through three new people come on last night and we
45:11
had 700, participants, and typically there's anywhere from
45:16
one to three New people every week.
45:20
Maybe somewhere between 25 and 40 people on on, on the zoom
45:25
quality, right? What so often you'll hear
45:30
someone say. As someone did say last night,
45:32
they'll say going to prison was the best thing that could have
45:35
happened to me, was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
45:39
And, and I think that that's probably revisionist thinking,
45:48
that it might be something that I needed right within the school
45:52
of this show, you know, the thing, that that I was most
45:55
afraid of turned out to be the best thing for me.
45:58
Yeah. But I think that, if anybody
46:00
thinks about it, hard enough to think that going to prison is
46:05
the best thing that ever happened to you.
46:07
They're in some way, what they're deceiving themselves,
46:10
right? You know needed a Correction for
46:13
sure, right? You won't ever hear me say that
46:17
come out of my mouth Jeff and I understand some people that that
46:22
their life changes and they gather, you know, I've had, you
46:26
know, so many different people on, you know, while they're in
46:29
the hole and they're, you know, they become somebody and take a
46:32
different path. But and it's a big statement.
46:38
Yeah. And but I get it because I just
46:44
Anyway people want to reduce these things down.
46:46
It's hard to do, it's hard to make a black and white.
46:51
Well it's hard to do the amount of work.
46:54
It really takes to go through this kind of a transformative
47:00
experience. And in my case, as you know,
47:07
I'll just kind of like leave the prison story behind it there
47:09
with my prison inside. Prison story.
47:11
Wasn't that you Nico other than. But I do want to I do want to
47:15
say that. What, how did you because you
47:18
have to have strategies when you go into prison.
47:20
What how did you tackle prison like how?
47:23
I know you walked a lot. You weren't locked 3,500 miles
47:27
and I totally identify with that.
47:29
I probably did six to eight miles a day.
47:31
How did you live your life in prison?
47:37
I had I had a very simple philosophy or our game plan
47:42
going in and that's was that I knew I would be there for about
47:47
a year roughly and I wanted to accomplish one great thing for
47:54
each of my for mind, body and spirit during that year.
47:58
Yeah, and I wasn't quite sure exactly what that was.
48:01
But once I had the goal set that, I knew I had to divide it
48:05
up into Little pieces. And so every day I would have to
48:08
focus on something for my mind, something to my body, and
48:12
something for my spirit. And and so for great strategy,
48:17
by the way, I mean, you think I just gave a big tip therefore
48:21
not just people in prison but trying to live your life.
48:23
Yeah. Yeah we're baking.
48:26
A cake is pretty much the same no matter what you gotta get
48:29
organized. Yeah, so for my mind, I I took
48:38
at our lessons and I took Theory, I took at REI played a
48:42
little bit of guitar when I was a kid and I've been playing
48:45
continuously a little bit. But I took 200 guitar lessons
48:50
and I became pretty good guitarist enough so that I was
48:54
able to play in the church band when I got out and all of that
48:57
kind of stuff. Yeah.
48:59
And and that made the time go fast.
49:02
I'm sure it did. And and then for Spirit I got
49:09
kind of thrown into religion into God and I kind of really
49:14
started to explore that. Certainly it was the seeds of
49:17
what my decisions were a little bit later and and for my body
49:23
mostly I decided what I was going to do is I was going to
49:27
walk the track and I had made a decision.
49:31
I was going to get into anything that like where I could get
49:34
hurt. You don't want to get hurt.
49:36
In prison, there's a lot of guys you know, playing softball in
49:38
that they break ankles and wrists and yeah no but but
49:43
walking seemed right. And I just kind of did the math.
49:48
And I thought, if I walk 10 miles a day times per year,
49:52
that's roughly the same distance as walking from New York to Los
49:57
Angeles. Yeah.
49:58
And so, what I did was I went into the library prison library
50:03
and I got a, I got a Road, atlas and I actually charted the, I
50:10
like the, the figure walking and then and then every day where I
50:16
would see is where Ken miles would take me or is close to it.
50:20
If you get a flip, the pages to get to the each state and
50:23
everything and I would learn about it as much as I could from
50:27
that from that location about about where I was vicariously
50:34
and I was fascinated. It's a great escape for the
50:37
mind, I love that. Oh, I walked Akron, Ohio, and
50:40
then death Nashville, Tennessee. And then across the Memphis in
50:44
the Little Rock and I have had a pad.
50:48
And, and while I was walking on the track, people would join me
50:54
and it would be like, what are you doing today?
50:55
I said well, I'm in the middle of my walk from Nashville to
50:58
Memphis and and it was just something you know, it Was just
51:06
something that I think, you know, the it's interesting for
51:12
so many different reasons Jeff because you have to trick your
51:15
mind. When you're in prison, you have
51:17
to have your own Escape when you're in prison because where
51:20
you are is very dull, there's no colors.
51:23
You know, the you have to create a world around you that
51:27
hopefully makes you feel more real of who you are.
51:30
So you don't lose yourself in that environment.
51:33
Yeah. and, and it just became something all these things I did
51:41
every single day and and you know, in prison that the day's,
51:47
the day's just fly by And this is how they flew by for me when
51:57
I lost 65 pounds because I had bulked up before I went to
52:02
prison. Yeah.
52:03
I was in the best shape I've been in a long time.
52:07
I could actually run 5k. Yeah.
52:11
That lasted for about a week after I got out of prison.
52:17
Well, not everybody. A lot of people are Afterwards.
52:21
But as you get close to the door and you know your freedoms on
52:25
the other side. What's what are you thinking?
52:28
Well like I'm heading out. What am I doing?
52:31
Yeah, because I know you did a lot.
52:33
So I'd be are you thinking about that behind the fence?
52:37
Where you are? You just thinking?
52:38
Freedom, not not, not not so much because I knew I was going
52:42
to a halfway house and I didn't know what that was going to
52:44
mean. And again, I was drunk and I was
52:47
going to live with a friend on home confinement for a while.
52:50
Home confinement back there. Not not care.
52:52
Zach type of home confinement. And So there were a lot of
52:58
logistics and and I was certainly overthinking, every
53:03
one of them. But I got through, I got through
53:11
Halfway House in the home confinement and I had ordered
53:17
drug and alcohol counseling. I wasn't didn't prison long
53:22
enough to get into our dashboard.
53:24
Yeah. Yeah.
53:25
But I, but I did have to do the non residential program and I
53:30
actually learned a lot, you know, I learned a lot about the
53:33
about the physiology and psychology and all of that,
53:36
you're even if even at a, you know, it's not like it's, it's
53:40
not about education as much as support, right?
53:42
Right. So while I was in drug and
53:47
alcohol counseling, My accounts are said to be.
53:51
So what's your plan? What are you going to do?
53:53
And I said well I'm going to go to AA and I'm going to have a
53:55
sponsor and sponsee is I'm going to do my thing and and he said
54:00
to me, maybe you want to do some things that you can put on a
54:06
resume. This is your counselor says that
54:10
huh? Yeah, and and it just clicked it
54:13
is. Yeah, well you know to say is
54:15
great but I'm probably going to have to make a living and I was
54:20
lucky that the government had not taken away, all of my All of
54:25
my money. So I had kind of a plan that was
54:29
going to work for a while but so I went to my rehab a Silver Hill
54:34
and I told him I could volunteer there and I told him my story
54:42
and it didn't shock them, but they had still have your
54:44
background check and but they didn't two hours later.
54:48
They called me and they welcomed me as a volunteer. and from
54:52
there, I went to another place and volunteered and then I went
54:55
to a re-entry nonprofit in Bridgeport Connecticut and That
55:01
would make me feel Jeff, I'm sure.
55:03
I mean, I'm thinking that those type of things that you did the
55:06
way that you did them at the time that you did them had two
55:08
really filled you up. Oh yeah, there's no question.
55:12
I knew I even knew from my days in a that I was that I was
55:19
turning my life over to service and to the, you know, the care
55:24
of God, you know, higher power, kind of thing.
55:27
But I didn't really, you know, hard to equate that with, you
55:32
know, a location. Like, what was I going to
55:34
actually? But I was feeling great about it
55:40
and so, in the midst of it, I actually went to the pastor in
55:47
the church that I was attending with my wife, I was talking to
55:50
her about it and he said to me, I think we should go to
55:53
Seminary. And that was a weird.
55:57
Yeah. How did you react to that?
55:59
I didn't know what Seminary was. Yeah.
56:01
You know, I didn't really know what it was but it turns out a
56:04
progressive seminaries, most about a lot about social, maybe
56:09
not most of them a lot about social justice.
56:11
Social justice. Yeah.
56:13
And I applied to Union Theological Seminary in
56:17
Manhattan, and I was accepted. And I did that for three years
56:22
full-time. What was it like for you?
56:25
I mean you're not that far away from your time in prison, you're
56:28
not that far away from all the other things you're doing.
56:31
What did that three years? Feel like to you.
56:36
Well, first of his 27 years since I graduated law school so
56:39
I didn't even know how to read, you know and and you know,
56:45
reading these books by theologians and philosophers
56:48
Savvy then. Yeah.
56:50
And I also didn't want to be known as pretty good guy.
56:53
Yeah. So for the first year and a
56:55
half, I hid that part. But because of that, I really
57:01
want to having an authentic experience. or, and And I didn't
57:10
know if it was right for me and I want to talk you to a
57:13
third-year student about it and and I said and I said to him,
57:19
you know, I don't think I'm getting a lot out of this.
57:22
And he said to me, well, you know, instead of trying to get
57:25
something out of it, maybe what you want to do is try to put
57:28
something into it and of course, that was a lesson.
57:32
I've learned in a, a many times, but I just couldn't, you know, I
57:35
just couldn't translate that I couldn't transfer that to my
57:38
Seminary experience until that moment.
57:41
And with that, I just, I just left the, my guard down and I
57:47
started being of service within the Seminary and Iran.
57:52
The Prisoner religion panels and it all kinda like that and it
57:57
turned everything around. There's liberating.
57:59
Yeah. Oh fantastic.
58:01
And then, and I was going to say in the city not far up in the
58:06
morning, you up, there was up the Columbia campus.
58:08
So, I was glad I was doing real New York City brand, a, a time.
58:12
And that was just a gift. And we took, when I came out,
58:16
right? I applied for a job at a church
58:21
in the hood. In Bridgeport, Connecticut.
58:25
And I knew the pastor because I've been on a non-profit there,
58:29
that was the first nonprofit that I had to buy the me to be
58:32
on the board of directors. And so, I got the job is being
58:37
an associate pastor and director of bridge Ministries for this
58:40
Inner City Church. And it was all Latino and all
58:47
people of color. Yeah, and my soon-to-be wife.
58:56
We married yet. We are.
58:58
We were married. We were married by that.
58:59
We got it. We were very rare that point.
59:02
She, we were the only white people there.
59:05
Yeah. But it was a brand of religion
59:08
and spirituality that I never really know about him.
59:11
So beautiful. Yeah, no, I think in the, in
59:14
the, in the world of privilege, we just bought the, you don't
59:19
really understand what what real what real privilege is and you
59:26
know what real chess is or real and Gary and the move from
59:33
Material way of life, through a spiritual way of life with, with
59:38
it, was in my midst, there was no people deny, that, that
59:43
something was going on there. So I was at a Blog.
59:48
I was writing at night like early days of blogs and I was
59:53
writing a Blog logs we like podcast really you think about
59:56
yeah yeah yeah prayer for those of you listening a Blog as a pre
1:00:00
pasta exactly. And but I was blogging night
1:00:07
about differences about living in Greenwich but working in
1:00:11
Bridgeport because the to the whole country.
1:00:15
Yeah. Yeah, those are.
1:00:16
Those are the two most socioeconomically.
1:00:19
Disparate communities came County communities in the
1:00:24
country. You're only a few miles from
1:00:26
each other and I was writing about it and I got a phone call
1:00:31
from a reporter at a hedge fund magazine.
1:00:35
And he said to me yes we are-are-are you the minister to
1:00:39
hedge funders. As I've been working with all
1:00:42
these hedge funders and a a and in Greenwich and I said no but
1:00:48
it soon as it came out of his mouth, I knew that.
1:00:51
That was my calling. I was my call.
1:00:53
That was my calling you right there.
1:00:57
And so soon after my wife and I started, you know, literally the
1:01:02
first Ministry in the world devoted to people navigating
1:01:06
those white collar justice system.
1:01:09
I just think it's, you know, you so many different things happen
1:01:14
in people's lives. And then, you know, some people
1:01:16
take that and create something that can mean so much.
1:01:20
And the fact that you were able to find this path, Jeff after
1:01:24
everything that you've been through.
1:01:27
And you're totally absolutely 100% qualified for every single
1:01:32
thing that someone would come to you for.
1:01:35
And that's such a big deal because you could tell on the,
1:01:40
on the call last night that there are people who desperately
1:01:44
are just looking for information, you know, they're
1:01:46
getting ready to go in. It's the most fearful thing in
1:01:50
their life that they know and I always, I do always tell people
1:01:53
that nothing is as bad as your mind makes it out to be not even
1:01:57
then because what you build up in your mind is, but having
1:02:01
someone like you, With your background and your intellect
1:02:05
and your ability to tell them and help them.
1:02:10
And it's a, it's a really big deal.
1:02:13
And, you know, I think, you know, your ability to create
1:02:20
that. World.
1:02:23
And then you were able to get your law license back.
1:02:26
Which what did that feel like for you?
1:02:28
Because that had to have been like, a full cycle.
1:02:31
And now, you're a kind of a different type of person doing
1:02:34
different types of things. And then you, oh, here's this
1:02:37
law license that I used to have, you think?
1:02:41
Yeah, your decision to get my law license back with definitely
1:02:48
a outgrowth of the ministry and the decision.
1:02:52
Mostly I looked at what people needed.
1:02:54
Yeah. And and what they needed was
1:02:57
people to trust because the whole system is designed to just
1:03:03
take everything that you've got. Yep.
1:03:05
You know, not just money either, you know, your humanity and your
1:03:10
everything and and very humbling.
1:03:14
And I am sorry my and just to take people who have been
1:03:22
treated like roadkill. And try to bring the humanity
1:03:30
and give them people someone to trust.
1:03:33
And I knew that there was a hole in the market, it just a lot of
1:03:36
good criminal lawyers out there a lot but their job is to get
1:03:41
people, the shortest sentence they can I mean, basically that
1:03:45
your job but there's so many other things that are going on
1:03:49
when people are prosecuted, there's civil things, and
1:03:54
family, things, and emotional things, and I've been able to
1:03:58
deal with a lot of the family and emotional ones, but people's
1:04:02
legal issues that they're very concerned about maybe as much as
1:04:06
as their criminal occasion of bankruptcies and partnership
1:04:10
dissolutions and winding down and divorces.
1:04:14
And yeah, maybe they're so many complicated things.
1:04:20
And that's kind of what I had been.
1:04:23
An expert in my whole life is just One of those, you know,
1:04:28
seeing the big picture in helping sophisticated people,
1:04:34
put that all together and I'm thinking, wait a second, there's
1:04:36
nobody who doesn't it? That's what's so great about it
1:04:39
is that you were able to recognize it, nobody's doing
1:04:42
that. Why don't I feel this this role?
1:04:46
And, and so, it wasn't as if I didn't know, market research at
1:04:50
all because I did and I went to some criminal lawyers who Why I
1:04:55
trusted and I respected and I sent them my dear, you're in big
1:05:00
firms. You're in big law.
1:05:01
Firms. Why aren't you providing these
1:05:04
resources? Now, they do for their corporate
1:05:06
clients obviously, you know what, what for the individuals
1:05:10
and small companies, and they didn't quite say this.
1:05:14
But what I gleaned was that Once the process, the criminal
1:05:21
process, once it once it takes all of the resources from
1:05:27
somebody who's going to go to prison, basically, it takes all
1:05:29
their money, right? There's nothing left to take
1:05:36
care of all the other stuff and so none of the firm's want to
1:05:41
get involved in that, right? Well and Jeff you you've got
1:05:47
some unfamiliarity to that goes along with it.
1:05:49
Some of the things you're talking about with civil and
1:05:52
bankruptcy are those things. There's, there's a legal aspect
1:05:54
of that. But once that attorney walks you
1:05:58
in and you're sentenced, It is you are taking two different
1:06:02
paths. Now you are on a path that no
1:06:05
real attorney, that does criminal defense work reeling
1:06:08
and he's heard about it, but never experienced it.
1:06:12
And there's a big difference of dealing with somebody who's
1:06:14
walked actually through that gate in that world live.
1:06:19
Those steps that can really give somebody a different feeling
1:06:24
about how they're going to approach that life and how
1:06:27
they're going to survive. That's, that's a real big
1:06:29
difference. No, that's right.
1:06:31
But it and even in the legal context, that we even with the
1:06:35
legal Arena, the context of understanding, how all of these
1:06:40
decisions, affect everything, L moves all that out.
1:06:43
Yes. Because you know that, you know,
1:06:47
as much as well, as any of us know that from the day that you
1:06:52
are arrested, life becomes a workaround.
1:06:55
Yeah. You there's no, there's no way
1:06:58
to accomplish what? You might want to accomplish
1:07:02
without the Specter of that problem being right in front of
1:07:06
you. There with you the whole time
1:07:07
over time but now I spent 15 or 16 years helping people work
1:07:13
their way around those problems and and the problems are not
1:07:20
necessarily what they think they are or what they fear.
1:07:23
They are you know again within the context of your show but For
1:07:29
most people, the biggest barriers are themselves.
1:07:33
Sure. But also within the, within the
1:07:38
actual transactions of what they're trying to accomplish is
1:07:42
usually ways to accomplish things that just can't do it on
1:07:44
their own. Right.
1:07:46
And if you don't help, they help.
1:07:49
Yeah. And so, so here, I am now having
1:07:52
done this basically for 40 years of my life and just focusing on
1:07:58
people in crisis. Yeah, I was over.
1:08:01
I was always focused on people in crisis.
1:08:03
Are we driving? That's you.
1:08:04
Switch gears to the, the knowledge of these people that
1:08:08
are in crisis, which is wonderful because you bring all
1:08:10
that to the table. And, and, and I would say that
1:08:14
the big difference for me personally, I mean, I recognize
1:08:19
that it's a huge relief to the client because they found
1:08:25
someone who understands it, can really help them.
1:08:27
And I understand that. But for me, the big difference
1:08:32
is that I'm not focused on the money anymore.
1:08:39
Yeah, you know that's a real weird deal.
1:08:42
I was afraid when I got my law license back that somehow I was
1:08:47
going to become Contaminated or I was going to become surf
1:08:52
because, I mean, you would associate that with your old
1:08:54
life of when you were, you know, Power Player and the legal world
1:08:58
and not that you're not a power player, you're a power player in
1:09:02
a different world and and that's the world.
1:09:05
It's really helping all these people in your Gathering that
1:09:08
journey of your experience. Well, And so, and so, I mean,
1:09:14
what a gift, you know, to treat people fairly, and to be
1:09:19
expected to be treated fairly in return, as opposed to what I was
1:09:25
doing, was trying to get over on somebody.
1:09:29
Sure. Even if that was for a living.
1:09:32
Yeah. And and now have you know what,
1:09:38
you're just truly giving back, Jeff, I mean it's very rare.
1:09:41
LED I wanted to read this quote because very rarely are you
1:09:45
interviewed by someone and And the reporter actually gives you
1:09:51
a quote back of and it said, Jeff Grant is the real deal.
1:09:54
He's candid and generous with his wisdom, I can't imagine.
1:09:59
There is a lawyer in this country more qualified to
1:10:01
consider the complex issues facing people, prosecuted for
1:10:05
white collar crimes, and their families.
1:10:09
Evan is the reporter from The New Yorker, which by the way, if
1:10:14
you've got a time to go to Jeff's website, you can pull the
1:10:21
New Yorker article, which is just a fascinating article about
1:10:26
Jeff's journey and and what he's doing now.
1:10:29
But speaking of Journeys Jeff, I I find you such a fascinating
1:10:34
individual of just because you have done so many different
1:10:37
things. And it hasn't been easy.
1:10:40
The the the road has not been a straight line, but of your
1:10:45
journey. What do you think's your
1:10:46
biggest? Take away from everything that
1:10:48
you experienced. I think that I think there's
1:10:56
probably three things that other than other than mission
1:11:03
statement of your of your program, which is like spot-on.
1:11:06
By the way, you know that, because the thing I feared the
1:11:11
most did turn out to be the the best for me.
1:11:16
But I would say that one is by far the greatest accomplishment,
1:11:23
my life was becoming silver. Yeah.
1:11:26
And without that, nothing good could have happened.
1:11:30
So to do a lot of will do. Yeah, so if if there's anyone
1:11:36
listening to my three things, I'm going to tell you one.
1:11:40
Is to Riot, Iraq. Okay, that's a good one.
1:11:44
And, and, and I know it's hard. It's the hardest thing in the
1:11:49
world, but but if, you know, if you can do whatever you can do
1:11:55
to get into acceptance and and there's a whole new world, a
1:11:59
whole new life out there. So that's 12 is The person you
1:12:07
marry is the most important decision of your life.
1:12:11
I didn't do this alone. I could not have done it without
1:12:14
my, my wife and partner Lynn, we are a team, and more than
1:12:21
anything, you know, she calls me on my shit that's has been, you
1:12:26
know? And and I'm no longer ignoring
1:12:34
what's in our best. Interests in order to people
1:12:37
please or at least not much, right?
1:12:41
The the that's liberating and itself.
1:12:45
Yeah absolutely you know, the codependent thing, we worked our
1:12:50
way through it mostly but what we were throughout out to be say
1:12:56
I was missing. Number two is who you marry is
1:12:59
it is critical. And the third thing is and this
1:13:05
is Is this is the thing that that I can't believe in
1:13:09
kindergarten that you don't learn this live within your
1:13:12
means. Yeah, yeah, the fact that I now,
1:13:18
live within my means means that I'm I can make any decision I
1:13:23
want, I don't know. I, I don't have to do anything
1:13:28
and, you know, and as and as I was keeping up with the Joneses
1:13:33
and climbing that ladder and and so I had this chance and I had
1:13:38
this psychotic thinking that somehow if I got bigger it would
1:13:43
solve my problems as opposed to if I got simpler yourself.
1:13:46
Mike. So true.
1:13:49
I don't know where that came from, but that's a spiritual
1:13:53
self. Well, maybe I'm in my 50s now
1:13:57
and just like change. Yeah, but a good advice, we live
1:14:02
a simple life and, and that doesn't mean it's a nun,
1:14:06
privileged life because a lot of privileges has come back, you
1:14:09
know, especially since on all your again and I'm accepted into
1:14:14
into circles that I wasn't necessarily.
1:14:17
We invited into even a few years ago.
1:14:19
Yeah, so so there are a few, there are the big.
1:14:24
Yeah, I'll tell you a quick story because I can really
1:14:27
divide my professional life and the ministry Life, by the way,
1:14:30
just to think before the New Yorker article, and after the
1:14:34
New Yorker article because Yorker article was out in 2021
1:14:38
maybe August 30th 21. Yep.
1:14:42
So a little less than two years ago.
1:14:44
Yeah. Don't I got my law license back
1:14:48
and very soon thereafter Evan osnos called about the article
1:14:53
and and we did the article are the fast track that summer and
1:14:59
that all we're coming out of the pandemic.
1:15:03
And I had joining the American Bar Association again, and they
1:15:09
had their white collar conference in Miami.
1:15:13
And I decided I'm going to I'm going to go to this conference
1:15:17
as a as a lawyer. Yes, right.
1:15:20
And I was scared to death. I can't even tell you how much I
1:15:25
thought. I didn't know what to expect.
1:15:27
I I knew it was all in my head but nobody knew who I know we
1:15:32
cared nobody knew who I was. But in my mind I was building it
1:15:35
up to something that was frightening.
1:15:38
Yeah. So I went and the head of a
1:15:40
committee there that's called The White.
1:15:43
Our committee, which I had signed up for online.
1:15:47
And again, I knew nothing about any of this, so the committee is
1:15:52
meeting and then it's probably 30 people sitting in a room
1:15:57
Emeril sitting like in the circle.
1:16:00
And the chairperson of the, of the committee who does very
1:16:06
well, known white-collar lawyer, just well, why don't we each go
1:16:10
around the room and we'll State our names and where we're from.
1:16:15
So one by one, people are going around and they're saying my
1:16:18
name is so-and-so. I'm from Skadden, Arps, I'm from
1:16:20
someone from shimmery Sherman, Sterling.
1:16:23
And they're talking about older from all his big law firm and
1:16:27
it, and it finally gets to me. Me and I say I'm Jeff Grant and
1:16:34
I spent 14 months in prison for a white-collar crime.
1:16:37
I love it, right? Because that's the idea.
1:16:42
I thought that was, I didn't know what to say.
1:16:45
And with that the chairman of the meeting stood up, stir up
1:16:50
pointed right at me and said, you are the guy from The New
1:16:54
Yorker. And that was it.
1:16:58
Yeah, it was like now on the guy from The New Yorker.
1:17:01
Yeah. And I've been to many white
1:17:05
collar conferences and things and it's amazing that there
1:17:09
hasn't been one person I've met. Who has been dismissive, not one
1:17:16
person who hasn't been accepting hasn't treated me like a peer,
1:17:21
you know, it was an illegal. Tell you, if I think there's
1:17:24
something to that you're very vulnerable, you You don't cut
1:17:28
any Corners about your story and how you got through things.
1:17:34
And I think people really identify with those type of
1:17:36
things. You're not defensive, you just
1:17:39
real, and whether you would have gotten in the New Yorker or not,
1:17:43
you earned your way into people believing in you and trusting
1:17:49
you to help them. And so there's, there's a,
1:17:52
there's a story there, all in itself of how you handle a A
1:17:57
crisis and who you are through the crisis and how people react
1:18:03
to you, for sure want that beautiful.
1:18:05
Thank you, thank you for, thank you, for saying their friend.
1:18:08
I know that you were able to see a little bit of that last night.
1:18:13
Yeah, that was a gift having you there.
1:18:15
So, thank you. I love the fact that I was able
1:18:17
to do that before we interview today because it was just a gave
1:18:20
me a real insight to what's going on and the power of it,
1:18:25
but Jeff man. Thanks so much.
1:18:27
For being here and a guest. And I've I think the listeners
1:18:30
are going to get so much out of this.
1:18:31
And by the way, if you get something out of this, if just
1:18:34
one person gets some share it, share it, share it.
1:18:37
It's a big deal. And if you guys have time, I
1:18:41
know it's kind of a hassle but leave a review on Apple or on
1:18:47
Spotify. It's really easy to do.
1:18:48
All you got to do is just scroll down the page.
1:18:50
It says, write a review. Click on it.
1:18:52
It's it somehow puts the show on steroids, every time we get the
1:18:57
Reviews and helps promote the show.
1:19:00
Anybody wants to get a hold of me, Brent, cast e.com.
1:19:03
Remember, I spill caste wrong? It's not like, Sean and David,
1:19:06
it's a with an it, why? Yes.
1:19:10
Follow the show. It'll give you the notifications
1:19:13
when we get going. As I used to say, to my people.
1:19:17
When I was typing back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong,
1:19:20
and I'll do the same nightmare success in and out.
1:19:23
Jeff Grant, thanks so much for being and sharing your story.
1:19:27
Right. Thank you for having me a really
1:19:28
beautiful experience. Thank you divers success and
1:19:32
out. See y'all