Latest / The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul / Season 3, Ep 4 - The Well-Rounded Trap: Why a Brilliant Career Can Read Like a Boring CV

Transcript

Season 3, Ep 4 - The Well-Rounded Trap: Why a Brilliant Career Can Read Like a Boring CV · The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of mine asked me to look at his C V.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Twenty-five years in banking, lots of senior roles, you know the one that starts with the C.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the kind of career that people point at when they say, you know what?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to be.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like an easy review.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I thought.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I made coffee, sat down, and ready from top to bottom.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when, when I got to the end, I realized I could not remember a single thing about him.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ouch.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: He was boring, Jordan.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: 25 years of real impressive life, and he read like the terms and condition of a bank account.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: People use the word responsible, involved, uh led, and all of these words that are not really telling any story about the person.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's every CV I've ever read.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the problem.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: He had not written a bad CV.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: He had written a perfectly well-rounded one, an average one.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Every box ticked, nothing missing, but at the same time, nothing to remember.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a CV episode?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's an episode about why so many good people are invisible.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And why people just focus on ATS instead of focusing on a story.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: This CV is just where it shows up.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And today is about the Well Rounder Trap.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is the Data Shaman Podcast.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jordan.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Daniele.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Defend your friend for a second.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: 25 years in banking isn't covers everything the point.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants a senior person with gaps.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that is the logic you would assume, but at the same time, that is a trap.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: We smooth everything out so nothing looks wrong and end up with this C that does not look like anything.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: When you spend a long time in a big organization, you learn one rule very well.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do not leave a gap.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Every review asks where you were weak and then asks you to fix it.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Development areas.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for 25 years, you send down every edge.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end, you write a CV that proves you have no gaps.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which sounds like a good thing.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is a very safe thing.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the same.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Feel safe because nothing on it can be criticized.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that is exactly why nothing on it is remembered.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And your friends was like that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you summarize three years on three bullet points saying that I'll add a team that deliver the solution.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end of the day, that's not really a competency.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a factual account of what you've done.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wrong shape for the box.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is like a wrong shape for that box.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the whole episode in one sentence.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that makes you valuable is very often the thing that's not to fit you in the box.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: You've sat on the other side of this, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, for 15 years in banking.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've read hundreds of CVs and I sat on a lot of hiring panels.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you what happens in the room after the interviews.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Go on.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody leaves a hiring meeting saying they were okay at everything.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: What people say is a label.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Two I actually hold after panels.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: The one who helped the startup bootstrap its business development.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And she was very young.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And my favorite.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: The one who looked for sunken treasure in shipwrecks.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, treasure in shipwrecks in a bank interview.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: In a bank interview.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: He is a scientist who specializes in sonas.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we hired that person.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Of course you did.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is how memory works in a panel.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: People are remembered by a label.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the label comes from the spike.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: The CVs we talked about afterwards had one strength you could not ignore.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Even if the rest was uneven.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is that just your panels or is there something behind it?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot behind it.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about three pieces.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: The first is from 1933.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: A psychologist called Hedwig von Restorff showed people lists where every item was similar except one.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was written in red.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And people remember the one that was different, far better than the rest.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is called the isolation effect.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: The brain keeps what stands out.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: The odd one outsticks.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the second I love, and I think we touch upon in another podcast, some researchers at the Harvard Business School, they call it the Red Snickers effect.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: In the right setting, someone who breaks the norms on purpose, a professor in Red Trainers, for example, is seen as having more status and more competence, not less.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Funny enough, that is why I think I had a very good career in banking, because I have tattoos and I have earrings.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Those things were helping me stand out.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: In the right setting is doing a lot of work there.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and I want to keep it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: A deliberate difference.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you're clearly competent, reads as confidence.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not every kind of difference, the deliberate kind.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the third?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: The time.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: An eye tracking study by the Ladders, a job site, found that recruiters spent around seven seconds on the first can of ACV.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: People might argue about the exact number, but think about it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: In seven seconds, nobody sees an average profile.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: They can only see a peak, something that stands out.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Seven seconds for 25 years?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: 7 seconds for 25 years.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: When I sat on panels, I gave every CV three to five minutes.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Someone screening hundreds does not have the kind of time.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So where does neurodiversity come in?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because you've got that look.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you draw a graph of most people's abilities, it is fairly flat.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: A bit better here, a bit worse there.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: For many people with ADHD or autism, the graph looks like a mountain range, very high peaks and some deep valleys.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I should say I'm autistic and I have ADHD myself.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And my own CV never look well rounded either.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about what the well-rounder rule does to that person.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It looks at the mountain range and says, let us fill in the valleys every year in every review.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Exhausting.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is exhausting and the wrong trade.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: You spend the best energy dragging up a valley to average.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: While the pig, the thing you could be exceptional at, gets what is left.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you learn something else.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Pigs look odd, they look strange.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: They make you different.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: They make you the different one in the room.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you start to hide them.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: You mask.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: You become average, well-rounded, on purpose.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then you wonder why someone else gets the interesting project.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is the sentence I hear the most.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Very good at the job, and someone smoother gets the visible work.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: The valets are real, don't get me wrong.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Your CV does not need to hide them.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to lead with the peak.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm gonna push back.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hard.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I've managed people.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some gaps really matter.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you're senior and you genuinely can't run a meeting or you never answer email, lead with your spike sounds like an excuse.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: That is a fair feedback.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: But let us be a bit precise.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: There is a difference between weakness that breaks things and a weakness that is just unimpressive.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: If your team cannot do their jobs because you never answer emails, that breaks things.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fix it to good enough, you know?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be exceptional at writing email, a replying.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Often with structure rather than willpower.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: A routine, a rule, someone who triages for you.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the other kind?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a natural presenter.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: When the job is building the model nobody else can build, that one breaks nothing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is just not shiny.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And people spend years on those.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Second pushback.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: The robots.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Half the time a human doesn't even read the CV first.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: The applicant tracking system does.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the system wants every keyword in the job ad.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So isn't well-rounded exactly what gets you through?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good one.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where people get you wrong with the i too.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Your CV has actually two readers.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: First, the filters, then a person.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: For the filters, use the words from the job ad.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Use the AI if you want to.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Write terms in full NS acronyms.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Standard headings, one plane column, no tables or text boxes.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Fine, do that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: But do not ask the AI to take every requirement in the job ad.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is how you build the world on the CV in about 40 seconds.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Keep the keywords inside the spike.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Passing the filter gets you red.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: The spike gets you the interview.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Last one.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: At the top, don't leaders need breath?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: The team needs breath.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not every person in it.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: The best teams I've ever seen are spiky people whose picks cover each other's valleys.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: They are complementary.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, everyround a team of spiky people.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, show me.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: What is fixing it actually look like?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in a recent live session on LinkedIn, we reworked a made up CV, so I can share it freely.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Alex Morgan, vice president in credit risk.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: 12 years, Hong Kong, Singapore, London, CFA.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And here is the summary that he wrote.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Results-driven finance professional with strong analytical leadership and communication skills, and a proven track record across multiple functions.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've written that sentence.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think everyone has written that sentence.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: It could belong to literally anyone.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I use four steps instead.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I call them start, spot, shape, and scale.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: The four S's.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Start?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Start.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: List the moments people came to you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not your job title.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: The moments.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Spot?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Spot.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Find the pattern.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: With Alex, it was Iron in the Singapore role.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth bullet out of five.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: In his own time, he built a model combining delay payments, covenant data, and news flow.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: It flagged two clients about six months before the downgrade.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: The bank later rolled it out across the region.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Fourth bullet under handled ad hoc requests or whatever?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Next to handle ad hoc requests, yes.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in the London role, years earlier, the same thing in different clothes.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: He was the person the team went to when a spreadsheet or report broke.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was the same strength, but two roles.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is a spike.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Shape.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Shape.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Put it in the first three lines.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And cut what doesn't support it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: The line under his name went from vice president risk and finance to credit risk lead who finds the stress before the downgrade.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the summary became I find the risk nobody has modeled yet.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: In Singapore, I built an early warning model to flag two clients about six months before the downgrades.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: The bank now runs it across the region.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a different person.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Same guy, totally different person.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is the same person, same career.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: But you need just 10 seconds to know what Alex is for.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then scale.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Prove it in every role with one result that shows the same spike.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: 13 skills went down to 5.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: The CV ended up half the length.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Half?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: People are going to hate that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Cutting is where everyone gets nervous.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like losing evidence.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: But when I ask people what they actually miss from the cut list, the answer is usually nothing.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, give people something to do this week.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ten minutes.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Three steps.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: One, write down three times someone came to you because you were the person for it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Two, name what the three have in common in just one sentence.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Three, make the sentence the first line of your CV or your LinkedIn headline if you're not job hunting.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're hiring?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Read for the spikes, not the gaps.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Ask of every CV, what would this person could be extraordinary at?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you cannot find it, the problem may be the CV, not the candidate.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the strongest people I hired at the most unusual CVs.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: The treasure hunter was one of them.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the trap is fill the valleys, hide the peaks, become forgettable.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: A spiky CV asks the reader to remember one thing.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: A well-runner CV asks them to remember everything.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Only one of those works.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to find your spec together, there is a free 30 minute call with me at Danieleforni.com slash book.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I am Daniele Forni.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: This has been the Deta Shaman Podcast.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, take care of your inner world.