Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / Dave Stone | Connection Over Content: Pastoral Presence in the Digital Age | BP2 Season 2 Episode 13
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Dave Stone, welcome to the Better Preaching Podcast. dave: Frank, thank you so much, my friend. I have looked forward to this ever since the invitation came my way and always good to see your smiling face. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, me too. I've really been looking forward to it. And so let's just get into it right of the way. Here's the question right at right out of the gate. Look, you're a Christian church guy, and I just gotta know, Dave, how closely related are you to Barton W. Stone, one of the founders of our faith tribe? dave: I love it. My my dad was a Christian leader within the restoration movement, and he did a really thorough study, got into the genealogy of our family. Frank he got within one generation And we were in the same states as Barton W. Stone, but he never could connect the puzzle pieces for that that last piece. So he said to me, I don't think that we are, but you know how rumors start and people, you know especially within the independent Christian churches and churches of Christ, you'd love to be related to Barton W. Stone. One time I Dr. Frank Weller: Sure. dave: was I was being introduced to speak at a at a conference for our brotherhood, and someone mistakenly said, now you know what, Dave, isn't it correct that I think I heard your dad say one time that you all are related to Barton W. Stone, is that right? And he put me on the spot in front of seven hundred people. And I said, well, if my dad said it, then it's true. Because I knew he hadn't said Dr. Frank Weller: There it is. dave: it. I knew he hadn't said it. So that was my out. And then, you know, you just you just go on with it. But we tried, I don't think so. But yeah, if a Barton W. Stone relative ever wins the lottery, somehow I will find some connection to them. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, the legend is enough, right? We don't need to worry about the reality. The legend is enough. dave: we'll just we'll just let people just say, Well you see the connection stone and stone, so I Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: would take it, but no no physical proof from a genealogy. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I mean, do you have grandchildren named Bart? So there you go. I'll be Yeah, I'm related to Barton to Stone. Yeah. dave: I should have thought of that. what was I thinking? Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, you come from a preaching family. You mention your dad. Listen, Sam Stone is a giant within our fellowship of churches. And of course your your your your brother Jeff is is terrific. He's dave: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: he's been a wonderful supporter of our of our college. Tell us about your journey to becoming a minister and Just how your dad influenced your decision to pursue vocational ministry. dave: Well, I'm glad you asked that question because my brother and I were extremely blessed with our father and mother, Sam and Gwen Stone and Dad was a a pastor. He was a minister there in Cincinnati, Ohio. And then we were in Columbia, Missouri. He preached there for a few years before he went back to become the dean of a graduate school. But ministry was was in our blood just through osmosis. But our parents always said to us, you just need to use your gifts for the Lord. They never pushed us into ministry. They introduced us to it. we were around it all the time. we saw the fun of it. We got to be part of Dad's sermon writing. He would bounce jokes off of us, Frank. He would say, I'm thinking about telling this, or would you mind if I told this story of what you said and It was one of those things where we felt like we were a part of ministry. And they showed us the good and the bad and the ugly, age appropriate, what they shared with us, and plenty of things that they kept from us. But my brother and I went into the preaching ministry because we saw the same man at home as he was in the pulpit. And that's what attracted us to ministry was that consistency. and seeing mom and dad living for Christ when when the crowd and when the congregation wasn't around, they were the same person. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and think that authenticity is just so critical to how your your kids' view of the church is shaped. I dave: Yeah. Yeah, couldn't agree more. Dr. Frank Weller: I love what you said there that you you you got to be part of the ministry. That's something Tracy and I did with with our three kids, is we wanted them to know that, okay, look, here's the reality. Dad's job comes with some challenges for the family, but at the same time, there's some huge benefits to to being The pastor's kid. And we I told my kids if if ever I use your name in a sermon, you get a dollar. And dave: That's the way we did it too. We did this we did the same thing. But I had Frank, I had some kids that were entrepreneurs and bordered on mercenary. because when we went to multiple services at multiple campuses, they started adding up every campus and the number of different services with all of them combined. And then they said, Well, Dad, you're on radio. how many stations? Dr. Frank Weller: there you go. Yeah. dave: You on. and Dad, you're on TV. So it got to be lucrative for them if we we said that if I said their name. But I made this rule, Frank, that I had to say their name. And so sometimes my son would be licking his chops and I would just start talking about my son and I would just look at him and gesture. I would never say the name Sam, because he was named after my granddad. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: And he would just be begging for me to say the name because he didn't get paid unless I said Sam. So yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: That's fantastic. See, you can't fool the old man. You you gotta stay one step ahead of him. dave: No. But then they would start saying, Well then, you know, I don't think I'm gonna give you permission to share that illustration. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, good luck with that. The other thing we did is we would take our kids the old North American Christian Convention. I remember when dave: Really? Dr. Frank Weller: our kids were old enough that they got to run around the Galthouse in Louisville without parental dave: yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: supervision. They thought that they were just in tall cotton. It was the best thing ever. dave: Yeah, that's that's hog heaven when you have that freedom at an NACC and you've got the freedom to go to the booths and exhibits by yourself or to wander around the hotel. And yeah, we my brother and I wrought havoc in a lot of different cities and and so did my kids. So they're PK. Dr. Frank Weller: Your parents didn't have to buy pens for school for two years because yeah, got them all to North American Christian Convention. dave: yeah. You're on every mailing list. I still feel bad. I think the Lord's gonna say that, Frank, when we get there, say, Why in the world did you sign up for this and waste their their money on sending letters to you for twenty five years? You know, so yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: 'Cause I got a pen, Lord. Yeah. So your dad's preaching style, how much of that found its way into into Dave Stone? dave: Actually a lot of it because my my dad used a lot of humor. He had clear outlines that were easy to remember, and he didn't like to preach long. And so a normal Sam Stone sermon was twenty-five minutes, maybe twenty-six. And I asked him about that one time, the more I I started observing and from other churches that we had visited and things. And I said, you know, Dad, you you typically go like twenty-five minutes, because I said, I'll time you. And he said, you know, most people would say they've never heard a a bad short sermon. And I thought, yeah. Yeah, keep it keep it short, stupid. You know, don't don't try to express all of the things that that you learn now. I I typically preach thirty-two, thirty-three minutes. I just got my averages of every single sermon from the last two years at at Christ Church of the Valley in Phoenix. And I think I was at thirty four point three was my average length. And if they give me thirty five, I'll take thirty-five. But you know, my experience has has been And when I go to a place and oftentimes Frank they'll say you've got 40 minutes, and I'll say, Well, will you put a countdown clock at 36? And they're like, Well, why so you're gonna go four minutes over? I say, no, no, I it will be a better sermon for you all if it's 36 minutes. I can talk 40 minutes, I can talk 50 minutes if you want. That's not a problem. But It's it's better if if I've trimmed the fat off and I keep my pacing. Do you mind if I tell you a story at at I think Bob Russell's been a guest on here with you all. Dr. Frank Weller: not yet, but he's about to be, yes. dave: good, good, good. So it hasn't happened yet, but it's close. Good. Well when when I had my first experience at of joining the staff at Southeast, that day in staff meeting, Bob said, Hey, let's let's take Dave to Jenny's for lunch. I'm like, okay, what's Jenny's? Well, it's a big hamburger place. and we got there and he said, Hey Dave, if you eat a Jenny burger, I'll I'll buy your meal. Well I'm like, what's a Jenny burger? Twenty-two and a half ounces of ground beef is what it was, Frank. Okay. So Dr. Frank Weller: Oof. Yeah. dave: I was 27 years old. I'm like, bro, bring it on. You know, you're gonna buy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they bring me a Jenny burger, got the whole staff there. Bob's egging me on the whole time. And he says, you know what? He said, you eat that whole thing, you know, I'll do it. Well, I'm concentrating on the hamburger. I start off fast and furious, then halfway through, he says, You got to eat your french fries too. I said, well, wait a second. You know, typical senior pastor changing the rules midstream, right? So I said, you gotta be kidding. No, no, you gotta eat fries too. Come on, we don't want to be wasteful. So I get all the way down to where I've got two bites left. There's a half an ounce. I've eaten 22 ounces. Bob says, I can't believe you did it. I can't believe you did it. He said, eat the last two bites and you got it. I said, I I can't eat the last two bites. He said, You're you're right there. You've got two tiny bites. Eat the last two bites. I said, dude, I can't I can't do it. I said, if I eat that last half ounce, you're gonna have twenty two ounces right back at you. So I didn't eat it. I lost the bet. I had to buy my own meal. And here's my point. I think there are a lot of pastors who, when they go up in the pulpit, they They throw out 22 ounces of ground beef. But they they could give a six-ounce fillet if they just trimmed the fat and if they put the preparation time in and they cut off the excess and they trimmed it down, they would have a much better product and their people would get a whole lot more out of it than just throwing a whole lot out and and seeing what sticks. Dr. Frank Weller: Man, I agree. It is difficult. I I think it's more difficult to preach shorter than it is to preach longer. And a lot of times you're leaving really good stuff on the cutting room floor and that can feel really painful. dave: Woodrow Wilson once said this. Somebody said, How long does it take for you to prepare a five-minute talk? He said, five-minute talk, he said, it'd take me about three or four days. Said, 15-minute talk, he said, it'd probably take me a day. He said, long talk. He said, I can start right now if you'd like. Dr. Frank Weller: That's gold, Dave. Yeah. Yep. Dave, let me ask you this. If you had decided that you were not gonna be a minister, what would you have done? dave: Hmm. I had three other things I was interested in besides ministry. radio, broadcasting, politics, and comedy. I I I toyed with all all of those and preaching. So I had four different interests. And what's unusual is I'm I'm surprised you asked that question, because I've seen now, I've been in ministry for 45 years, and God has placed me in every one of those arenas where I've been able to do things. And I think that's just the way God is. If you put him first, then he will open doors that match up with your giftings. And I've got to see and enjoy things in all four of those different areas and from a distance, not not doing them in any any full-time capacity, but just able to get my feet wet. And I think it's kind of like a god wink of him just saying, Okay, you know, you seek me first, you use your gifts for me first, and I'll open up these other doors that are just some of the the interests and hobbies that you might have. So it's been fun to see. How God can bring things full circle. And, you know, God, everybody who's listening, God uses wherever it is that you might be, and He'll use all of your past experiences. And those will come into play in future ministries. You don't see them coming, but God, God never wastes a hurt. God never wastes an experience that you've had. And that will make you a better leader because of the things that you've been through. Dr. Frank Weller: the s the only one of those that kind of surprises me a little bit, Dave, is politically. dave: Hm, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm I was an advisor for two different governors, and you know, it was one of those things where it wasn't like I had to go out stumping for them and trying to get people to vote for them. It was after the fact and where they just pulled me in to be a a person that was a spiritual sounding board for them. And so unique ways in which I got to perhaps influence some things, but also I was able to keep my focus and and not become wrapped up in partisan politics. Dr. Frank Weller: Interesting you bring that up because if if if as a minister you're committed to maintaining confidentiality, I don't think it matters where you're at. If you're in a town of 2,500 people, town of three 3,000 people, you you can go to the mayor of that town and say, listen, I'll be the one guy you can share your burdens with that you'll know that it's not gonna go anywhere else. dave: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: It'll die with me. And and it gives you an opportunity to bless and encourage. someone who's in that arena and in i over time to begin to have influence in that space without sort of dirtying your hands with the more sordid side of the political dave: Right. Dr. Frank Weller: arena. dave: Yeah, and I think that at at the end of the day, I had someone ask me, you know, when when you interact with high influencers or high capacity people or those who might have some type of celebrity status, what are the best tips you could give? I had a guy reach out to me because he was he's starting to find himself in some of those circles. And I said, you know, the the thing that stands out to me is that you treat them as a person. And you encourage them the same way you would encourage someone else. And you send them texts of just treating them normally. I remember one time another Bob Russell story, we were at lunch and as we were leaving There was a local celebrity that was there and his wife, and we stopped at their table, talked to them for just a few minutes, and we got to the car, and I said, You know, I just have to ask you, this really stood out to me. You you spent the majority of the time asking questions of his wife and just digging into that. I said, I I noticed you were very intentional about that. Why, why were you? And he said, well, it's because everywhere they go, everybody makes a big deal about him, and she gets left behind and and and lost in the shuffle. And he said, so I just wanted to make certain that she was valued, and that's why I went with with asking her questions rather than him, because everybody comes over and always asks him questions. And I just filed that away in my mind and I thought, wow, what a what a great. lesson and what a great takeaway for me just to see how when you just treat people normally and you take that interest in the one that might often be overlooked. You know, there's a good lesson for us as pastors in that, just when if it's a person who is a large donor, if it's a person who gets all the attention because they they have the biggest mouth or they lead the most volunteers, you know, th those people make certain that you're reaching out to the ones who are often overlooked. If I see a I mean, if I see a person in a wheelchair or I see someone that's you know maybe all by themselves, I want to make a beeline to them because these other people, they're gonna feel love. They're gonna feel connected. They're gonna feel like they're part of the church. But if you see somebody sitting by themselves, go make a friend with them. And then try to connect someone over to them. And all of a sudden that that church got much more personal and they're gonna listen a whole lot more to your sermon if someone has warmed them up, especially if it's the pastor. Dr. Frank Weller: That's where you move from being preacher to pastor. I remember something you said years ago that when you're at a smaller church, your pastoring sets up your preaching. But as the church begins to grow, then your preaching sets up your pastoring. And what when you were at Southeast and you're preaching to 20,000 people a week, it's it's making that beeline to that overlooked person that really gives you the opportunity to flex those pastor muscles. dave: Yeah. that's the that's the place where you really win and you get a bigger gain out of this the larger the church is because it's more unexpected. I always tell people that the the greatest part of my preaching ministry was the discipline of learning people's names. And you say, Well, what does that have to do with preaching? Well, everything, because that that group of people out there I can't play to incredible oratorical strengths that I have and skills that I have. I I have to play off of my people skills. And so that's part of the reason why I want to shake everybody in and I wanna shake everybody out. And you say, well, that's tough to do as as a church gets larger. Yeah, but they can see me making the effort. And I can hop around the different doors and I can be visible in the sanctuary, wandering around before that five or ten minutes before the service, trying to catch as many people as I can. You know, I used to go up to the escalators at at Southeast and I would shake hands for 15 minutes with the latecomers. And and the reason I love to do that, Frank, is because they can't stop and talk to you. This is terrible. It doesn't sound real terrible. Okay. They can't stop and talk to you when they stop and say, Well, Brother Dave, I need to talk to what do you think about the end times? hey, hey, Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah. dave: hey, Bertha, you need to keep moving here. You're gonna back everybody up on the other. They're getting backed up. Keep I can't talk about that right now, but great to great to have you. Well, that's where I can sharpen learning names and that's where the people who are checking out church are. Those people come either very early to the service or they come very late to the service because they don't want the awkwardness of either being late and walking in late or they don't want the awkwardness of sitting there and nobody talking to them. And so if you stand and you are at the door where people come in late and come in all the time, wow, you can make some great friendships. And now all of a sudden, when I learned their name and I call them by name the next time, because I've reviewed those names, now this really big place gets Really small and very personal. And they'll say, Well, you know what? when people take a shot at at your church and says, that place is so big, it's got X number of people there, that person will quickly say, Well, you know what? the pastor knows my name. And all of a sudden, when you know somebody's name, that person becomes a better listener and they hang on every word you say. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. And people are surprised after you've stood at the escalator, my goodness, that that was the that was the senior minister? I didn't expect that. And y you're not you're not you're not wearing your name tagging it, hey, I'm the I'm Dave Stone, senior minister. But they see you up there, that really means something. dave: Yeah. You just really think Actually you love it when doesn't matter what size the church is, when you're helping somebody get their kids squared away, you know, there's always a look that people have. Doesn't matter if the church has a hundred people or a thousand people. There's a look that people have when they don't know where to take their kid or they don't know what to do. And they give themselves away. And for you just to say, Hey, is this your first time here? Well, yes it is. How did you know that? I just I just was curious, I haven't seen you around here and what can I help you find? And then you do those things and fifteen minutes or twenty minutes later, all of a sudden you walk up to preach and that person says, my word, that that was the pastor. And again, you have instant credibility. I can't tell you I just my wife and I just went to lunch with a a couple and they shared with me a story of them coming to South East thirty five years ago and they said, The next week you called us by name. And they said, we couldn't believe it. And we looked at each other and we both said, Did he just say our names? And so that place gets more personal and now they feel like somebody knows me there and they're gonna come back. This guy went on and and was an elder of our church for a number of years. And I didn't know that backstory at all. So take advantage of that. I always say, you know, don't don't head for the security of the green room. Be out in the availability of the lobby. where people know that you can be there so they can introduce their their guest to you. Man, when you have a guest comes, you want them to get to meet some some people. And at the top of that list is the pastor. Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, you've preached all over the country in churches small, large, and you've preached at conferences and plenary sessions. You host the pastor to pastor podcast. That that really gives you a broad perspective. So here's my question. What's the state of preaching in America today? dave: Hmm. Well, I I think there's a lot of encouraging things that that I see. I think that pastors in a lot of ways are are working harder at their sermon series. I think there there's more interaction than there used to be, partly because of We we didn't have email thirty years ago. We didn't have the internet, you know, twenty-five years ago. Some of these things that allow us to be able to get ideas from one another. I also think that there are more affinity groups and cohorts and ways where people can come together and learn best practices from one another. That can be a double-edged sword, though, because you can fall in that rut of not doing what the Holy Spirit wants for your church and trying to do what the Holy Spirit wanted to do for ex-pastor, you know, this pastor two years ago or three years ago. some of the things that I see as the strengths are, I think that the bar has been raised when it comes to preaching. And part of that comes from just the competitive nature of those who are in ministry. They're not thrown off by being in front of people. But, you know, look at how the world changed. When when I was growing up and I was getting ready for church, and my dad was already at his first service, there was Oral Roberts and there was Robert Schuller on TV, and that was about it. We only had, you know, three channels, maybe four channels at that time. And that's what was on on the Sunday morning. But now I can listen to anyone's sermon that they preached within the last 24 hours, and I can cherry-pick and choose who I want to hear, what I want to hear. A guy who preached a sermon in Virginia who's never preached on a Sunday morning, preached this weekend. I'm gonna listen to him. A guy in a cohort with me preached in Kentucky this week. I'm gonna listen to his sermon. And so I can, doesn't matter the size of the church or whatever it might be, I can listen to anyone. But in the past, it used to be you were compared to Charles Stanley and Robert Schuler or whoever it might be. But now with there being so many guys readily accessible that people listen to while they're working out or while they're you know jogging or washing dishes or whatever it might be, it has raised the bar because it's like, well, I gotta step up my game. And you know, that's that's what I see that's very encouraging. I tell people this sometimes, one of the greatest things that is happening with preaching is AI. One of the worst things that can happen to preaching right now is AI. And I had a conversation with Max Lucado on my podcast two weeks ago. And we we talked about this, and we both arrived at the same conclusion that it's not a place to get your theology. AI is not a place to do that. And finally, I shared a quote from someone else. I said, I think that you go to AI as the very last thing, not the very first thing. And Max really warned that this is something this it's basically borders on plagiarism, is what it is. And he he said something that was really profound that won't sound that profound, but it is profound. He said, AI is not the Holy Spirit. And I thought, wow, what a succinct way to say it, as only Max Lucado can say it. Yes, AI can help me with the editing of my sermon after I'm done writing it, after I've put in the hard work of the preparation. But AI is not the place to start, and it's not even the place for me to go in the middle. Because if I use it in the middle of my preparation, pretty soon AI will be writing that sermon. And so I have to discipline myself and say, that's my last stop. And I use it to improve wording, and I choose it, I use it in order to edit, and I use it when I can't get someone else to read over my sermon in the short amount of time that I've got, and I'll say, What would you cut? Here's who my audience is. You know. I might use it. I've got a friend Carl Kuhl that the last question that he will ask is, What are the places that would make a non-Christian feel uncomfortable during my sermon? And he says, if I don't have any places that make a non-Christian feel uncomfortable, then I better add some. But also I also want to make certain that I'm wording that in the in the best way. I have no problem challenging and confronting sin, but I also want to make certain that I'm earning the right to be heard through that sermon. Dr. Frank Weller: I think the other part about AI that we just need to be aware of and really see it as an opportunity is that you cannot outsource spiritual formation to AI. While AI can provide content, it's never going to provide connection. dave: Amen. Dr. Frank Weller: no matter how realistic it it can it can feel. When I when I pull up Claude, it it reads across the header. good morning, Dr. Weller. How can I help? but dave: yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: but we gets got to understand that's not real. That's not real connection. dave: Yeah, there are statistics that Ashley Wooldridge shared in a recent sermon at at CCV in Phoenix, and it showed the top ten uses of AI, and loneliness and companionship were right there, I think number two or number one. And So it's for people who are detached and not connected with people, they're finding their connection with AI. There is something incredibly Dr. Frank Weller: Wow. dave: warped and sad about that. The number nine usage of AI was for tarot cards and astrology. Dr. Frank Weller: Really. dave: Yeah, so it it's just amazing to to see the the things we would think of from a work-related perspective. That was like number four or number five. you know, wordsmithing and and some of those things in our field would be like round right around number five. So, yes, there's huge dangers with it, but it also is a perfect time for the church to lean in and say, hey, this is what AI can't do for you. You know, Dr. Frank Weller: Right. dave: AI can't listen to you and give you a Holy Spirit-empowered answer coming from a believer when you're going through the loss of a loved one or you're going through the pain of a job change that you weren't expecting. You know, those are the things that as a spirit-empowered Christ follower, we can do that AI can never do. Dr. Frank Weller: And for us in higher education, AI is just providing a sea change. It's an arms race between students who use AI to turn in fraudulent work and professors who are using AI to to spot that fraudulent work. dave: Yes. Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: but what we just say at at at Great Lakes Christian is spiritual formation comes from the connection you have with your with your professor, with your suite mates, with your teammates. And AI cannot provide that. And so for us, we see AI as an opportunity then for us to distinguish what we do set apart for or in contrast to AI, that if you really want genuine community, if you want genuine connection, you you gotta come here. You can't do that with some AI course that you're gonna that that you access via the internet. You you just gotta be in the room, you gotta be knee to knee, you gotta be nose to nose, or at least in a format like this where you and I are are even though you're in Louisville and I'm in Lansing, we get to interact. You can't do that with artificial intelligence. dave: And that's one thing that it it's interesting you say that, Frank, because I saw that firsthand with your students. I interacted, I was on campus, I think it was in the spring this year, and I was at Great Lakes. And let me just take a minute to say the the proof is in the pudding and the quality is there in the student body that you have. I met student after student who you could tell spiritual formation is taking place. Their desire to serve, the interest that they took in an outside guest speaker when they weren't assigned to me, they just went out of their way to say something. There are things that you notice on a campus and I noticed that it's it's thriving, it's growing. God's doing some incredible things at great level Lakes and the best proof that you have of that are the students that you all are are are putting out when they graduate from Great Lakes. So keep it up and God's using you in a great way. Dr. Frank Weller: I appreciate that, Dave. I really do. Man, that was a half hour that went really fast. We're out of time. I want to say thanks, Dave. I want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. I want thank our BP2 community for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching Podcast. Hey, do me a favor and subscribe to the Better Preaching Podcast wherever you get your podcast. Like us, rate us, follow us on social media, and check out the website at betterpreaching.org. And finally, join us next time. Dave's coming back. We're gonna have another insightful conversation. Because better preaching makes a bigger impact.