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Season 1_ Sidebar 12(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

0:10
Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to this week's Proof Sidebar. I'm here
0:13
Speaker 1: with Sinta Davis and Kevin Fitzpatrick to discuss episode thirteen
0:16
Speaker 1: of our series on the Case of Lee Clark and
0:18
Speaker 1: Kane's story, And in this week's episode, we finally found Charlie.
0:29
Speaker 2: It took us a long time to find him, and
0:33
Speaker 2: there were many moments where we felt like we were
0:36
Speaker 2: close and then it would turn into a dead end.
0:39
Speaker 2: So I remember the day we finally found what we
0:43
Speaker 2: thought was where they lived and were knocking on his door,
0:45
Speaker 2: and I think you could hear from the episode, like
0:48
Speaker 2: the excitement and our voice says that we had come
0:52
Speaker 2: that close to finding him.
0:54
Speaker 1: Because we had a lot of leads. It wasn't like
0:56
Speaker 1: we were searching fruitlessly. We were, we didn't know it,
0:59
Speaker 1: but having leads to follow and just they never went anywhere.
1:03
Speaker 1: And one day we went back to I forget what
1:05
Speaker 1: we were there for. We had some questions for Phil's story,
1:08
Speaker 1: Kane's uncle, and while we're there, He's casually like, oh, yeah,
1:12
Speaker 1: that's the Childers. I know we can find him. Phil
1:15
Speaker 1: is a very well cutted man.
1:16
Speaker 2: By the way, Phil knows everyone. I mean, our hunt
1:21
Speaker 2: was not easy, Susan. You were chased by a dog.
1:25
Speaker 1: You know, dog tore my dress. I was not happy,
1:27
Speaker 1: oh your dress.
1:28
Speaker 2: We were cussed at. We were chased off of property.
1:32
Speaker 2: Like our hunt, it was sort of a dangerous hunt,
1:36
Speaker 2: but we were not going to give up until we
1:38
Speaker 2: found him.
1:39
Speaker 3: And it was such an important part of the story.
1:41
Speaker 3: I mean I was sort of following this through texts
1:45
Speaker 3: from Cinda and Dan and and you found him. We
1:50
Speaker 3: think we found him, We found him, and it was
1:53
Speaker 3: for me sitting in New York at that point, it
1:55
Speaker 3: was it was very, very tense, and then I was
1:59
Speaker 3: just sort of staring at my phone for hours waiting
2:02
Speaker 3: to get an update. Once you sort of found him,
2:04
Speaker 3: it was an amazing find and brought so much insight
2:08
Speaker 3: to the story.
2:10
Speaker 1: And the logistical struggle by itself was a whole nother episode, probably,
2:14
Speaker 1: and trying to arrange all the pieces to come together
2:17
Speaker 1: with our flights and interpreter.
2:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what didn't make the episode is that we
2:21
Speaker 2: thought we had a lead on where Charlie and his
2:23
Speaker 2: brother were, and we met Mike Burton and his wife
2:28
Speaker 2: and they drove with us, and it turned out to
2:30
Speaker 2: be a dead end. And so the day we actually
2:33
Speaker 2: found the house. We didn't have Mike with us, so
2:36
Speaker 2: it was me and Susan and Dan who first went
2:40
Speaker 2: to talk to Charlie on our own with alt an interpreter.
2:43
Speaker 1: Well, we weren't even sure that he was there. We
2:46
Speaker 1: were pretty sure by that point because like people in
2:48
Speaker 1: the neighborhood have been like death Charlieyeah, he's over there
2:50
Speaker 1: at the house of the Red Car, but we didn't
2:52
Speaker 1: actually know for sure until we went there and then
2:55
Speaker 1: Wayne and Charlie came out.
2:57
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that Dan was there with you so
3:00
Speaker 3: that he could get some video of this and people
3:03
Speaker 3: could could see that, because you guys did an amazing
3:06
Speaker 3: job telling this story, and some of it you just
3:09
Speaker 3: can't sort of digest unless you can see it.
3:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, Charlie can't speak for himself, not truly in a
3:17
Speaker 1: podcast format obviously, so being able to see him and
3:20
Speaker 1: see how he interacts with us to me as a
3:23
Speaker 1: critical part of it, just to see his confidence and
3:26
Speaker 1: his answers, and to know that this is what Charlie
3:28
Speaker 1: is in fact saying.
3:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was hoping this would happen. But
3:32
Speaker 2: someone who has watched the videos that we have posts
3:35
Speaker 2: on YouTube of dance videos, wrote in who is a
3:40
Speaker 2: She is a certified ASL interpreter and also has completed
3:44
Speaker 2: training as a communications assessor, and she watched the videos
3:48
Speaker 2: and basically what she said was that Burton's interpretation was
3:51
Speaker 2: spot on, which just kind of confirmed in my head
3:54
Speaker 2: that Charlie said what we think he said.
3:58
Speaker 3: One of the moments that stood out for me just
4:00
Speaker 3: as a quick as I going back, was when I
4:03
Speaker 3: learned on one of these calls to give me the
4:05
Speaker 3: progress from Georgia that you Senda knows sign language. And
4:10
Speaker 3: I was like, what, I've known her for twenty years
4:12
Speaker 3: and I had no idea that she language.
4:16
Speaker 2: Well, let's be clear, I don't know sin. I know
4:21
Speaker 2: that I know the alphabet in a few signs.
4:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's still it still took me back. I was,
4:28
Speaker 3: I was taken aback a little bit.
4:30
Speaker 2: Which did come in handy we did. We told Charlie
4:33
Speaker 2: our names, and you know, we were able to give
4:37
Speaker 2: you know, proper hellos, and so I think it did
4:40
Speaker 2: help a little bit.
4:42
Speaker 1: So we call him Charlie in the episode. But one
4:44
Speaker 1: thing we learned when we did talk to him is
4:48
Speaker 1: that he has changed his name in the year since,
4:51
Speaker 1: so he had He has a name sign that he
4:52
Speaker 1: used for himself that meant Charlie, but he uses a
4:56
Speaker 1: new one now which would probably be better interpreted as Charles.
5:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think he told Mike like, I'm not Charlie anymore,
5:03
Speaker 2: I'm Charles, and he changed the sign just a little bit.
5:07
Speaker 3: Yeah.
5:08
Speaker 1: But so the first day when we talked to them,
5:10
Speaker 1: we didn't. We went in, they were there, they talked
5:12
Speaker 1: to us. We didn't have interpreter, but we wanted to
5:15
Speaker 1: find out what we could because we didn't know for
5:17
Speaker 1: sure if we would be able to have an interpreter
5:19
Speaker 1: with us. We didn't know for sure they'd still be
5:20
Speaker 1: there and we went back the next day. So we
5:24
Speaker 1: wanted to learn that we could. And in hindsight, it's
5:28
Speaker 1: clear just how dangerous that thinking was. I'm glad we
5:31
Speaker 1: spoke to him. I'm glad we tried to learn we could,
5:33
Speaker 1: but the risk of confusing ourselves and Charlie was so high,
5:37
Speaker 1: and even as careful as we were being, we almost
5:40
Speaker 1: screwed it up.
5:40
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I mean we got it all wrong basically.
5:44
Speaker 2: I mean, we thought he was talking about the Brian
5:46
Speaker 2: Bowlling case. We were like, wait, what was someone else
5:50
Speaker 2: in the room? Was Charlie in the room? And no
5:52
Speaker 2: one wanted to say that, Like we misinterpreted everything he
5:55
Speaker 2: was saying to us what we knew about the case,
5:57
Speaker 2: We were reading into what he was trying to communicate with us.
6:00
Speaker 1: And Charlie was so vivid and his reenactments of this,
6:03
Speaker 1: like the way he was like he would have Jacinda
6:05
Speaker 1: be the one with the gun and he would reenact
6:07
Speaker 1: telling her and by her we now know it was
6:10
Speaker 1: Ronny Quarrels saying no, no, no, no, put the gun down,
6:13
Speaker 1: don't play with the gun.
6:14
Speaker 2: No, no, no no, which to us we felt like,
6:16
Speaker 2: does that mean Charlie was actually in the room, Like,
6:18
Speaker 2: how come no one has ever said that. Kane has
6:20
Speaker 2: never said that, you know, no one in the Bowling
6:22
Speaker 2: family has said that this doesn't make sense. We've got
6:24
Speaker 2: this whole thing wrong. And Kevin, I think we even
6:27
Speaker 2: called you after that and we're like, he told us
6:30
Speaker 2: a story that we don't understand.
6:33
Speaker 3: Well, one of the most amazing things about all of
6:35
Speaker 3: this is that you find out that there are two shootings, right,
6:40
Speaker 3: there are two different incidents, which just floored me, as
6:44
Speaker 3: I know that it floored you guys, and it just
6:46
Speaker 3: becomes this stunning moment and you're like, oh my god,
6:49
Speaker 3: this is even more crazy and confusing than I possibly
6:53
Speaker 3: could have imagined. I mean, what are the odds of
6:55
Speaker 3: that he's talking about one and not the other. And
6:58
Speaker 3: it's just and you can sort of hear it in
7:02
Speaker 3: your voices when that sort of light goes off in
7:04
Speaker 3: your head.
7:04
Speaker 2: It's like, oh my.
7:05
Speaker 1: Gosh, it's not just two shootings. And the similarities between
7:09
Speaker 1: them are kind of astounding. Almost the same place, like
7:12
Speaker 1: the Childers and the Bowlings live very close together, and
7:15
Speaker 1: the same little section Silver Creek. They both involved teenage
7:18
Speaker 1: boys sitting on a bed when a gun goes off
7:20
Speaker 1: and shoos one of the head. I mean, they're it's
7:23
Speaker 1: understandable that how Charlie could have gotten these two cases
7:27
Speaker 1: mixed up, and add the trauma that it caused him
7:29
Speaker 1: on top of it, and you can see why his
7:33
Speaker 1: memory is so entangled between these two stories here.
7:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like, of the two shootings,
7:41
Speaker 2: why do you guys want to know about the Bowling one?
7:43
Speaker 2: I have nothing to do with that one. I didn't
7:45
Speaker 2: see that one. I wasn't in the room with that one. Like,
7:47
Speaker 2: if someone came to talk to him about one of
7:49
Speaker 2: these shootings, he's going to go with the Quarrels one.
7:52
Speaker 1: It was very hard to focus him on Brian Bowling's
7:54
Speaker 1: death because he just kept being like, uh, I don't
7:57
Speaker 1: know anything about that. Why are you asking about that?
7:59
Speaker 1: Let me talk to you about why happened to Ronni Quarrels.
8:01
Speaker 3: And the Ronnie Quarrels one is clearly the one that traumatized,
8:05
Speaker 3: clearly the one that had this amazing impact on him,
8:09
Speaker 3: and he was right there.
8:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, or we certainly wouldn't have realized while we were
8:13
Speaker 1: talking to Charlie that there were these two shootings if
8:15
Speaker 1: it hadn't been for his brother Wayne, who stepped in
8:19
Speaker 1: and explained what was going on. And I remember thinking
8:22
Speaker 1: when it happened, we knew from our first conversation with
8:25
Speaker 1: Charlie that Wayne didn't like Charlie talking to us. He
8:28
Speaker 1: was trying to get Charlie to be quiet. He kept
8:32
Speaker 1: trying to interrupt us. So for a moment, I remember
8:37
Speaker 1: thinking that Wayne had this crazy story he was using
8:40
Speaker 1: to try and get Charlie stopped talking to us, but
8:43
Speaker 1: he was insistent. He was like, no, guys, listen to him.
8:45
Speaker 1: He's saying the name Brian, but he's not talking about
8:48
Speaker 1: Brian Bowling.
8:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was kind of amazing. We were like, Wayne,
8:53
Speaker 2: what what are you talking about? Is this right? Is
8:55
Speaker 2: this true? And even Mike Burton was like, oh man.
9:01
Speaker 1: And Wayne forgot the name of this guy too. He
9:03
Speaker 1: remember the name Greg Coral and Greg was the name
9:05
Speaker 1: of Ronnie's brother, so he's kind of close. But the
9:08
Speaker 1: story we'd heard that day from both Wayne and Charlie
9:12
Speaker 1: turned out not to actually totally match up with what
9:15
Speaker 1: we would later learn about it. But what I also
9:18
Speaker 1: discovered is that once we started talking about the actual
9:20
Speaker 1: Brian Bowling shooting, Wayne got pretty chatty. Wayne was not
9:24
Speaker 1: terribly concerned about talking to me about what happened at
9:26
Speaker 1: the Bowlings trailer, and he was trying to tell us
9:29
Speaker 1: how we could get Charlie to tell us what really
9:31
Speaker 1: happened that night at the bowling trailer. He suggested things like,
9:34
Speaker 1: just tell him he'll be in a lot of trouble
9:36
Speaker 1: if he doesn't come clean right away, basically telling me
9:39
Speaker 1: I should threaten Charlie to get him to tell me
9:40
Speaker 1: what happened, which we did not follow that suggestion. Obviously,
9:45
Speaker 1: but it was he who eventually said, like, guys, go
9:47
Speaker 1: to the bowling trailer. You're never going to know anything
9:49
Speaker 1: unless you do that.
9:51
Speaker 2: As soon as Wayne said that, and we asked Charlie
9:53
Speaker 2: if he'd be willing to come with us, we packed
9:55
Speaker 2: up and left. Within seconds, we were packed up in
9:58
Speaker 2: the car. It was me and you, Susan and Mike
10:01
Speaker 2: and Charlie and Dan, and we went over there immediately.
10:05
Speaker 2: Wayne did not want to come with.
10:07
Speaker 1: Us, and I don't think he was invited.
10:10
Speaker 2: We would have let him come and wanted to, but yeah,
10:15
Speaker 2: I mean that is the only way I think that
10:17
Speaker 2: we were able to unravel the two stories.
10:20
Speaker 1: And even then so it was hard to go back
10:22
Speaker 1: and like listen to some of that audio because I
10:24
Speaker 1: just feel like the biggest dummy because Charlie is sitting there.
10:27
Speaker 1: He's like very clear, he's communicating exactly what happened in
10:32
Speaker 1: this event, like explaining details about what went on and
10:35
Speaker 1: who lived where and who was what, and we're so
10:38
Speaker 1: hung up on the names. We're trying to like argue
10:40
Speaker 1: with him, and Charlie like didn't bin like luckily, like
10:44
Speaker 1: he knew what he knew when he kept saying that
10:46
Speaker 1: whereas weird like trying to convince him to change his mind,
10:50
Speaker 1: which is dangerous because he he keeps saying Brian, and
10:54
Speaker 1: it took us a while before it finally click that like, Okay,
10:56
Speaker 1: he's saying Brian, he does not mean Brian Bowling.
10:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're still not unclear, like where Ricky
11:02
Speaker 2: came from or Ricky's brother.
11:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, we still don't know why he thinks Brian Bowling
11:06
Speaker 1: was Ricky's brother. He knows who Brian Bowling was. He
11:10
Speaker 1: started crying. We showed a photo of Brian. He was
11:13
Speaker 1: very sad about his death. But when he signs for
11:17
Speaker 1: Brian Bowling, he signs Ricky's brother. But he is clear.
11:21
Speaker 2: I mean, he's adamant that there's two separate things. There's
11:24
Speaker 2: what's happened at his house and there's what happened in
11:28
Speaker 2: the trailer. And he is able to separate those two
11:30
Speaker 2: events and talk about them, you know, as two separate
11:35
Speaker 2: events in terms of what he remembers happening in each place.
11:39
Speaker 1: And he is very certain that he never saw anyone
11:41
Speaker 1: running through the Bowling's front yard.
11:43
Speaker 2: I mean, Kevin, when we called you, I actually I
11:45
Speaker 2: think the first week we pulled over one time to
11:48
Speaker 2: call you to tell you we had been.
11:50
Speaker 1: When we're outside the jail by accident.
11:52
Speaker 2: We unfortunately pulled over to call you outside of the
11:55
Speaker 2: jail and a cop came up to our car.
11:59
Speaker 1: But well, dance, big camera, they're rolling.
12:03
Speaker 2: And I, of course, my instinct was like should.
12:06
Speaker 1: I shouldn't we drive away? Like no, don't like it.
12:13
Speaker 2: Of hazard scenario going on in my mind where I
12:16
Speaker 2: was going to crass the Alabama.
12:17
Speaker 1: But he said that like just had to know, just
12:20
Speaker 1: wait for her to come talk to us.
12:22
Speaker 2: And Kevin, you were just like, uh, what's happening?
12:25
Speaker 1: He was like, I'll bell out Susan and no one else.
12:28
Speaker 1: Rest on your own.
12:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean because you know, you I've only known
12:32
Speaker 3: for a little while. Those two I've known for a
12:35
Speaker 3: long time, and they could use it.
12:39
Speaker 2: I mean, but I just I wonder, Kevin, like when
12:41
Speaker 2: we're calling you about like you know, there's two murders
12:44
Speaker 2: and Charlie was at both and you know he's telling
12:47
Speaker 2: us he didn't see anyone, like you know the story,
12:50
Speaker 2: you know what we've been working on. Like how hard
12:52
Speaker 2: was that for you to believe? Yeah?
12:55
Speaker 3: It was extraordinary because it took a sort of turn
12:57
Speaker 3: that obviously none of us were expecting. But it just
13:00
Speaker 3: kept getting you know, the story is, every time you
13:03
Speaker 3: sort of you think you've got to beat on something,
13:06
Speaker 3: it just gets stranger and more bizarre. And there's another
13:08
Speaker 3: person involved, and so for there to be another shooting
13:11
Speaker 3: that's so similar, it was just completely perplexing.
13:17
Speaker 1: And then and then it got even weirder when we
13:20
Speaker 1: finally find out what this other shooting was and realized
13:23
Speaker 1: that the person who killed the other boy was Charlie himself,
13:27
Speaker 1: or at least that's what the official story is.
13:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, every step of the way over that period, when
13:34
Speaker 3: you guys are calling me, it just became stranger and stranger.
13:37
Speaker 3: And of course this is all happening so rapidly for you,
13:40
Speaker 3: and you're changing course, and I'm like trying to keep
13:43
Speaker 3: up with this in bits and pieces, and I'm sort of,
13:46
Speaker 3: you know, I'm here in New York kind of going,
13:47
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm pacing and then I don't have
13:50
Speaker 3: all the information. I'm wondering what you guys are doing,
13:53
Speaker 3: you know, and then I start to get a little
13:55
Speaker 3: concerned about like your safety because it's such a such
13:58
Speaker 3: an intense story and it's very confusing. It was. You know,
14:04
Speaker 3: this episode is one of the most sort of extraordinary
14:07
Speaker 3: things that I've ever been a part of, and you
14:11
Speaker 3: guys are the ones who put it together. But I
14:13
Speaker 3: don't think any of us saw this turn coming, and
14:17
Speaker 3: help sort of perplexing and unbelievable would make all of this.
14:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess you know, a lot of people
14:24
Speaker 2: have written in about this episode with questions, but I
14:27
Speaker 2: think the biggest question out there, Susan, is doesn't matter.
14:32
Speaker 2: Will what we found out from Charlie make a difference.
14:37
Speaker 1: In terms of Lee and Cain's legal prospects? I think yes,
14:41
Speaker 1: although I got to say I'm kind of glad I'm
14:44
Speaker 1: not an attorney working on this case because this is
14:48
Speaker 1: not a typical fact pattern and there's no like easy
14:50
Speaker 1: answer about how this would be used in illegal proceeding.
14:55
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what's sort of vehically you've even used,
14:57
Speaker 1: Like I do believe it's legally significant, but it'll be
15:01
Speaker 1: interesting to see how exactly it'd be used in court.
15:06
Speaker 3: Well, Susan, let me ask you this because with Angela Bruce,
15:08
Speaker 3: you were saying that simply because she's recanting her statement
15:13
Speaker 3: doesn't mean anything to the court because she's already given
15:15
Speaker 3: a statement under oath.
15:16
Speaker 1: Yes, but Charlie is not recanting.
15:19
Speaker 3: That's right.
15:20
Speaker 1: Charlie never said this, right.
15:22
Speaker 3: It would seem to and I mean, you're the lawyer,
15:24
Speaker 3: but it would seem to open the door to say
15:26
Speaker 3: that nobody even understood his statement before.
15:30
Speaker 1: There's a few ways it could possibly go, and I'm
15:33
Speaker 1: not sure what the best way of presenting it would be.
15:36
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is not like Angela Bruce. It's not
15:38
Speaker 1: a recanting witness. It's not someone saying, well, I was
15:41
Speaker 1: lying beforem I'm telling the truth now as someone who
15:43
Speaker 1: is saying I was always telling the truth and no
15:47
Speaker 1: one was able to hear me, and people who didn't
15:51
Speaker 1: understand me were testifying wrongly under oath about what they
15:54
Speaker 1: believed I said, but what I hadn't said. Because again,
15:57
Speaker 1: like Charlie's story should actually have never been heard by
15:59
Speaker 1: the because it really only comes in through Dallas Battle
16:03
Speaker 1: and his testimony of what Charlie told him. Because Charlie
16:06
Speaker 1: himself it was such a mess on the stand that
16:09
Speaker 1: you never would have gotten the story from him alone.
16:13
Speaker 1: It's only because Battle was wrongly allowed to give a
16:17
Speaker 1: hearsay testimony about what people Charlie said that the whole
16:20
Speaker 1: story of Lee running by was ever even introduced, right.
16:24
Speaker 2: And Charlie was pretty consistent on the stand for reading
16:27
Speaker 2: the trial chairscript where he says, over and over, only
16:30
Speaker 2: story only story, just story only story.
16:34
Speaker 1: And there's another important point that happened at trial didn't
16:37
Speaker 1: make the episode, but it has to do with the lineup,
16:42
Speaker 1: because Charlie was Charlie allegedly has given a lineup of
16:46
Speaker 1: six pictures of boys slash men, and he supposedly drew
16:51
Speaker 1: a circle around the picture of Lee Clark. He said,
16:52
Speaker 1: that's why I saw running through the yard. But at
16:55
Speaker 1: trial he denies that he ever circled anyone on the lineup.
16:59
Speaker 1: And what's more, when the prosecutor shows him the lineup
17:02
Speaker 1: and asks who the photo that the circled is of,
17:05
Speaker 1: he says, story number two. Photo number two is story.
17:09
Speaker 1: And you see the prosecutor double take and he's like what,
17:12
Speaker 1: and then he repeats it. Charlie says again, like, oh yeah,
17:16
Speaker 1: photo two is Caine's story. He's a story. But at
17:19
Speaker 1: that point the prosecutor like ends his questioning. He's like, Okay,
17:21
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down now because this is not one where
17:23
Speaker 1: I wanted to and that's something that actually happened to him,
17:25
Speaker 1: and we spoke to him. We showed him a photo
17:28
Speaker 1: of Kin and he said, that's story. And then we
17:31
Speaker 1: showed him a photo of Lee Clark and he says,
17:33
Speaker 1: that's also a story.
17:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. We showed him the same lineup photo uncircled. We
17:39
Speaker 2: had photoshoppeds so the circle was no longer there, and
17:42
Speaker 2: he picked out two photos. The first one was not
17:45
Speaker 2: photo number two. I believe this was when we were
17:48
Speaker 2: without Mike Burton. Correct me if I'm wrong, Yes, correct.
17:51
Speaker 2: So we have no idea what he thought we were
17:54
Speaker 2: asking him to circle, but yeah, it definitely was not Lee.
18:01
Speaker 1: He seems to have no idea that Lee Clark exists.
18:04
Speaker 1: We tried every way we could and he's like, I
18:07
Speaker 1: don't I'm not aware of this Lee Clark. I'm not
18:10
Speaker 1: aware of this other guy in jail. I'm aware story
18:12
Speaker 1: is in jail for this. It's also worth noting, though
18:14
Speaker 1: this lineup is the same one was shown to Angela
18:16
Speaker 1: Bruce and she also picked out a photo of Lee
18:19
Speaker 1: Clark and we asked her about it. She's like, well, yeah,
18:22
Speaker 1: every other photo is a guy who was like in
18:23
Speaker 1: his forties. It's not hard to figure out which is
18:26
Speaker 1: the one that cops wanted us to pick. And she's
18:29
Speaker 1: right like the other guys in the lineup are like
18:32
Speaker 1: obviously not teenagers.
18:34
Speaker 2: The other thing is when we asked Wayne whether or
18:36
Speaker 2: not he thought Charlie saw someone, he had doubts himself.
18:40
Speaker 2: He said, I don't know. I don't think so.
18:42
Speaker 1: I asked him, but I, you know, mentioned the fact
18:45
Speaker 1: that Charlie's testimony was about seeing someone run outside the
18:48
Speaker 1: Bowlings trailer and his response was, that's what he claims
18:52
Speaker 1: he saw. Full on skeptical from the beginning. He's like,
18:55
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't say if he did or not,
18:56
Speaker 1: but I certainly don't think he could have. Yeah, And
19:00
Speaker 1: Wayne also said that the story didn't come from him
19:03
Speaker 1: in the first place. Battles testimony on the stand about
19:06
Speaker 1: how Wayne called him and said Charlie saw something come
19:09
Speaker 1: out and talk to him. That didn't happen. As far
19:12
Speaker 1: as Wayne remembers, he's very confident that it was the
19:14
Speaker 1: way around that Dalla's Battle called him and said I
19:16
Speaker 1: want to talk to Charlie, and he's like, okay, we'll
19:18
Speaker 1: come out here.
19:20
Speaker 2: I mean The other heartbreaking thing about this episode to
19:23
Speaker 2: me is when me tracked down Ronnie's mom and she
19:27
Speaker 2: was saying how she doesn't know what happened that day
19:31
Speaker 2: in the room with her son and Charlie and Wayne
19:34
Speaker 2: and the other boy, but what she really believes is
19:37
Speaker 2: that Charlie loved Ronnie and she did not want to
19:41
Speaker 2: prosecute no matter, you know, regardless of what may have
19:44
Speaker 2: happened in there. And all these years later, I mean,
19:47
Speaker 2: she still doesn't have all the answers. Yeah, that to me,
19:52
Speaker 2: it was a particularly tough and sad interview.
19:57
Speaker 1: There's a lot we don't know about this, the shooting
20:00
Speaker 1: when Ronnie Quarles was killed. What we have is a
20:03
Speaker 1: news report about the coroner's inquest where there's supposedly testimony
20:07
Speaker 1: from Charlie where he admits to shooting ronnievon an accident.
20:11
Speaker 1: But I think, Kevin, you had the same reaction I
20:14
Speaker 1: did when you heard about You're like, there's no way
20:16
Speaker 1: that Charlie Childers gave this testimony. And I frankly just
20:21
Speaker 1: do not find it plausible that what's written in that
20:23
Speaker 1: article was really testimony that Charlie gave.
20:26
Speaker 3: He has such a difficult time communicating. It strikes me
20:30
Speaker 3: as odd that he would be able to put together
20:33
Speaker 3: those statements.
20:35
Speaker 1: And one thing, Charlie kept telling us again and again,
20:37
Speaker 1: and it's hard to be sure what he was referring to,
20:41
Speaker 1: whether it was about Ronni Quarrels or Brian Bowling, but
20:43
Speaker 1: he said there was no interpreter present. We just wrote
20:46
Speaker 1: things back and forth, and he may have been talking
20:48
Speaker 1: about Dattle's battle asking him about Bryan Bowling, but he
20:51
Speaker 1: may have also been talking about this coroner's in quest
20:53
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six where he supposedly confessed to shooting
20:57
Speaker 1: Ronnie Quarles. But I don't know. Just send it up.
21:00
Speaker 1: What was your take, because like I walked away. It
21:02
Speaker 1: never occurred to me that Charlie could have been the
21:04
Speaker 1: person responsible for the shooting, and I just well, I.
21:09
Speaker 2: Was the opposite. Actually, because of the way Charlie reenacted
21:13
Speaker 2: him taking his hand and saying no, no, no. To me,
21:17
Speaker 2: it seems like the gun could have gone off by
21:19
Speaker 2: accident or whatever at that moment. So finding that out
21:23
Speaker 2: didn't seem that different from what he was saying. Although
21:26
Speaker 2: he told Mike I wasn't there, I don't know, I
21:29
Speaker 2: was in a different room. But what he was reenacting
21:32
Speaker 2: with us was putting someone's hand down. Was that him
21:35
Speaker 2: putting Ronnie's hand down? Or was this someone else in
21:37
Speaker 2: the room putting Ronnie's hand down? And that's what he
21:40
Speaker 2: was told. I don't know.
21:42
Speaker 1: What he describes though, is that he says that like,
21:44
Speaker 1: they asked me if I did it, I said no,
21:46
Speaker 1: I didn't, and they said, it's okay to me. I
21:48
Speaker 1: don't think Charlie knows to this day that he was
21:50
Speaker 1: officially the person responsible for killing Ronnie.
21:53
Speaker 2: He did tell us a story about going to school
21:56
Speaker 2: afterwards and telling a teacher about it, and he said,
22:01
Speaker 2: and she hugged me and I cried. You know. It
22:04
Speaker 2: was clearly clearly traumatic for him and something he still
22:07
Speaker 2: thinks about to this day.
22:10
Speaker 1: It also marks the end of Charlie's life of being
22:14
Speaker 1: in a community that can understand him, because it was
22:17
Speaker 1: very shortly after this that his mother decided he would
22:19
Speaker 1: be taken out of the deaf community, and he was
22:23
Speaker 1: effectively isolated for what has been the next forty five
22:26
Speaker 1: years of his life.
22:28
Speaker 3: And that shooting completely altered the course of his life.
22:34
Speaker 3: And then here he finds himself in the center of
22:37
Speaker 3: another one.
22:38
Speaker 1: So we have some questions this week. The first is
22:41
Speaker 1: from Casey at k Sizzle on Twitter. They write Justice
22:47
Speaker 1: in episode thirteen, curious if you all ever thought of
22:50
Speaker 1: showing Charlie pictures of individuals to definitively sort out the stories. Yes,
22:55
Speaker 1: we tried. Unfortunately it has the same with using names
23:00
Speaker 1: does with Charlie, and that his identifications aren't always enlightening,
23:05
Speaker 1: like with him being shown a photo of Lee Clark
23:08
Speaker 1: and saying that's Kane's story. We also have a question
23:11
Speaker 1: from Jane Truella. She writes, heart just a bit broken
23:15
Speaker 1: after listening to the latest Proof Pod. Years of being
23:18
Speaker 1: as understood for Charlie and the resulting with character Justice
23:20
Speaker 1: are so sad. But who interpreted for Charlie on the
23:23
Speaker 1: other case? Again, we don't actually know if there was
23:27
Speaker 1: even an interpreter there if you go by what Charlie
23:30
Speaker 1: seems to be telling us, and again it's hard to
23:32
Speaker 1: know what he's referring to the Bowling case or to
23:33
Speaker 1: the Quarrel's case. He kept saying over and over again,
23:37
Speaker 1: there was no interpreter. I just wrote down on a
23:39
Speaker 1: piece of paper. They wrote questions and answers back and forth,
23:42
Speaker 1: so there may not have an interpreter at all. I
23:44
Speaker 1: don't believe it was Mike Burton because Mike Burton seemed
23:47
Speaker 1: to have no idea about what they're shooting. But if
23:50
Speaker 1: there was an interpreter, we're not sure at this point
23:52
Speaker 1: who it would have been. We have a question from
23:55
Speaker 1: Roxane Pacha on Facebook. She writes, I'm guessing that nobody's
23:58
Speaker 1: hands were tested for gunpower a residue on the shooting
24:00
Speaker 1: that happened at the Chiller's house. I'm gonna guess that's
24:03
Speaker 1: the case too, but without the files, it's hard to say.
24:08
Speaker 1: I'm actually not even certain how common GSR testing would
24:10
Speaker 1: have been in the seventies.
24:12
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know a lot of the details
24:14
Speaker 2: about the Coral's case. We only know what we learned
24:18
Speaker 2: from Charlie and Wayne and from Missus Corals herself. You know,
24:23
Speaker 2: it'd be great to look at those files and see
24:26
Speaker 2: for sure, but at this time we just don't have
24:28
Speaker 2: a lot more information. Yeah, if anyone is interested, we
24:33
Speaker 2: have posted a few videos of our interview with Charlie
24:37
Speaker 2: on our YouTube channel and you can check those out.
24:41
Speaker 2: Our YouTube channel is called proof Crime Pod and.
24:45
Speaker 1: You can join Kevin, Jacinda and laughing at me as
24:47
Speaker 1: I run across the Bowling's front yard.
24:50
Speaker 2: For nothing else, everyone should watch to see a very
24:54
Speaker 2: pregnant Susan running wattle.
24:57
Speaker 3: She was she was committed. This story was told clearly,
25:02
Speaker 3: and it's really worth taking a look at them because
25:06
Speaker 3: part of the reason that we brought down the cameraman
25:08
Speaker 3: on some of these shoots is four moments like this
25:12
Speaker 3: where we can really sort of illustrate to people things
25:15
Speaker 3: that aren't always a parent. When I'm listening to the podcast,
25:19
Speaker 3: it's pretty amazing. What's coming up on the next.
25:22
Speaker 1: Show Next week we get some answers finally about what
25:26
Speaker 1: really happened with the autopsy. I'm Brian Bowling. Thanks for
25:35
Speaker 1: listening to this episode of Proof. Sidebar. If you have
25:38
Speaker 1: any questions for future cyber episodes, don't forget to send
25:40
Speaker 1: them our way through email, Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram. On
25:43
Speaker 1: all social media we are Proof Prime Pod. You can
25:46
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at the VF Melow two and
25:48
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Soo Simp and you can now find
25:51
Speaker 1: Just Send on Instagram too at just Send up Proof.
26:00
Speaker 3: Another d