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SMNTY Classics: The Last of Us Special, Episode 9 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told you a production of by Heart Radio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And welcome to the final part of our kind of
0:21
Speaker 2: surprise rerun of the Last of Us.
0:24
Speaker 1: But I guess it's fitting.
0:27
Speaker 2: The second season of the show is coming out before
0:32
Speaker 2: March of twenty twenty five as far as I know,
0:35
Speaker 2: so we're getting prepared.
0:38
Speaker 1: I guess this episode was.
0:43
Speaker 2: The episode of the show was short, but the conversation
0:47
Speaker 2: was long, because this is the thing people like to
0:49
Speaker 2: fight about, is the ending, or just have conversations about.
0:52
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily fighting, but I still I promise once
0:57
Speaker 2: a day I get some article that pops up like
1:00
Speaker 2: what Joel did well the morality. So there's a lot
1:08
Speaker 2: to unpack with this one. I will say one thing
1:13
Speaker 2: I wish I had phrased better, like immediately after we
1:15
Speaker 2: did this episode, I wish i'd phrased it better, is
1:18
Speaker 2: that I don't I'd find the argument that scientifically the
1:24
Speaker 2: vaccine wouldn't work this way not a good faith argument
1:30
Speaker 2: because it's implied that it would even if like in
1:33
Speaker 2: the real world, maybe it wouldn't.
1:34
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good.
1:36
Speaker 2: But in the episode, what I also, I said, because
1:40
Speaker 2: then what are you saying, are you applying that to
1:44
Speaker 2: how the zombies would work, how the infected would work,
1:48
Speaker 2: because I don't think it would work like that. That
1:50
Speaker 2: being said, I also said in the first episode of
1:53
Speaker 2: this series, the courtships is the real thing, and that
1:57
Speaker 2: it can and nature has been shown to do things
2:03
Speaker 2: that are frightening to us humans that appears zombie like,
2:08
Speaker 2: especially I mean only in animals. And I saw a
2:10
Speaker 2: creepy one about There's been a lot of creepy mushroom
2:14
Speaker 2: studies coming out recently. So I'm not saying that part
2:17
Speaker 2: couldn't happen. I'm saying I.
2:18
Speaker 1: Don't think like the Bloater would.
2:21
Speaker 2: I don't think like scientifically you're applying things and consistently.
2:27
Speaker 3: How serious you're taking this conversation and the like In
2:30
Speaker 3: the backtracking.
2:31
Speaker 2: Listen Samantha one, I don't want one one year, somebody
2:36
Speaker 2: in a desolate wasteland listening to the podcast like.
2:39
Speaker 1: She what a fool? Exactly what I mean. I could
2:47
Speaker 1: be wrong. Maybe the Bloater that is what's gonna happen.
2:50
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I as you know, I do.
2:54
Speaker 2: I write essays I feel like I have to justify
2:58
Speaker 2: every opinion that I have, and people who like to
3:00
Speaker 2: argue with me about the Last of Us and Star
3:02
Speaker 2: Wars by the way, I've got to come up with
3:05
Speaker 2: like every well every angle, I've got to explain.
3:10
Speaker 3: Well my arguments always, well, you're a dummy, and I'll
3:13
Speaker 3: walk home. It works for me.
3:16
Speaker 2: The difference between you and I probably get more rest
3:19
Speaker 2: than I do. Me lying away thinking about this podcast
3:23
Speaker 2: I recorded a year ago, Like, oh, no, I.
3:27
Speaker 3: Knew about like specific things when it comes to like
3:29
Speaker 3: opinions and such of like social construct and like whether
3:33
Speaker 3: I was offensive.
3:34
Speaker 1: In any ways.
3:35
Speaker 3: So my line of anxiety rather than but did I
3:38
Speaker 3: get this fictional ideal that could be scientifically done? Did
3:43
Speaker 3: I get that incorrect in my analysis of how this
3:45
Speaker 3: creation could have been created in the first place?
3:49
Speaker 1: Okay, let me okay, a couple of points. Well, and
3:53
Speaker 1: I also worry about that stuff. It's not that I
3:56
Speaker 1: know that that's true.
3:57
Speaker 2: But two is an argument that came out immediately after this,
4:02
Speaker 2: Like so many people tell me, well, even if they
4:05
Speaker 2: had made a vaccine, they wouldn't have been able to
4:07
Speaker 2: get it out because they have no way to transport things.
4:12
Speaker 1: Get out of.
4:13
Speaker 2: Here with that argument, that is ridiculous. Are you saying
4:17
Speaker 2: that even if it saves just a few They even
4:21
Speaker 2: say in the episode like that they wouldn't find a
4:28
Speaker 2: way if they could build up an immunity and it
4:30
Speaker 2: might take a while. Oh sorry, I bet that someone's
4:39
Speaker 2: gonna write in about this and like.
4:40
Speaker 3: Well, actually, well if they will, Actually that's about right.
4:46
Speaker 1: I get it.
4:47
Speaker 2: But it's also like, at a certain point even I
4:53
Speaker 2: have to step back and say, like, how seriously are
4:55
Speaker 2: we going to take this infective zombie virus.
5:00
Speaker 1: And the distribution of.
5:01
Speaker 2: The vaccines and we don't even know what's going on
5:03
Speaker 2: in most of the world.
5:05
Speaker 3: I mean to be there, the COVID stuff told us
5:10
Speaker 3: pretty quickly that we're probably doomed.
5:14
Speaker 1: It was true.
5:15
Speaker 2: Well then you're taking a fatalistic let's just burn it down.
5:19
Speaker 1: No, well that's a different that's.
5:22
Speaker 3: Sorry, real realistic about this conversation exactly. See there.
5:31
Speaker 1: See this is why this episode is so long. Even
5:35
Speaker 1: though the episode of the show is forty I think
5:37
Speaker 1: less than forty minutes, it was like forty minutes. That's amazing.
5:41
Speaker 2: Sorry, if anyone I offended anyone with my strong beliefs
5:47
Speaker 2: about vaccine distribution and the last.
5:50
Speaker 3: Of Us for the world.
5:53
Speaker 1: Anyway.
5:53
Speaker 2: Actually, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie
6:05
Speaker 2: and Samantha and welcome to Stephan Never told you Protection
6:07
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. And here we come to the end of
6:20
Speaker 2: our season one. I'm gonna say I'm already gonna say it,
6:23
Speaker 2: of our last of US mini series.
6:27
Speaker 1: We'll be back. Oh yes, yo, I'm so excited.
6:31
Speaker 2: All right, this one is the big one, the big boy,
6:33
Speaker 2: as my friend Katie describes the Bloaters. Because today we
6:39
Speaker 2: are talking about the finale, I have a.
6:42
Speaker 1: Lot to say.
6:42
Speaker 2: I've been agonizing over it. Oh my, it's gonna be
6:45
Speaker 2: all over the place, but it's going to be fun.
6:47
Speaker 3: And this outline has been prepared since day one.
6:50
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think I might have even done it
6:53
Speaker 2: before i'd seen one episode. I think I already had this.
6:57
Speaker 3: I don't think you did, because we didn't know for
6:59
Speaker 3: sure we were going to do this until episode one.
7:01
Speaker 2: That is true, And I am going to talk about
7:03
Speaker 2: some of the stuff I alluded to in that episode
7:05
Speaker 2: before I knew we were going to do this.
7:07
Speaker 1: But I think sometimes I just.
7:09
Speaker 2: Make outlines with the hope that one day I'll get
7:11
Speaker 2: to talk about it, and this is something I have
7:13
Speaker 2: a lot to say about, so do a lot of people.
7:15
Speaker 1: So it's going to be outlines I just.
7:20
Speaker 3: Randomly I do.
7:24
Speaker 2: So there will be spoilers for all nine episodes. The
7:31
Speaker 2: Last of US HBO Max series. The finale aired on
7:35
Speaker 2: March twelfth, so if you haven't watched it yet, put
7:40
Speaker 2: a pause, go and do it. They're not sponsors, which
7:44
Speaker 2: is a mistake.
7:47
Speaker 1: It's as trivisty, just like the one that happened in
7:50
Speaker 1: this episode.
7:52
Speaker 2: So this is something that thanks to Samantha and her encouragement,
7:59
Speaker 2: we decided to do where a week after the most
8:02
Speaker 2: recent episode comes out, we react to we recap to
8:06
Speaker 2: it and react to it. And it has been replacing
8:09
Speaker 2: my Happy Hours, so that's bi weekly thing. I know,
8:12
Speaker 2: our schedule is a bit of a mess. It comes
8:14
Speaker 2: to that one on Saturday. Yes, but this is the
8:16
Speaker 2: final one, so we will be returning to our regular schedule,
8:22
Speaker 2: I think.
8:23
Speaker 3: Maybe with more Last of Us content in disguise as
8:27
Speaker 3: Happy Hour.
8:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I like to do that, you know,
8:30
Speaker 1: I like to do that. Yeah.
8:33
Speaker 2: So we are talking about mainly the finale in this one,
8:35
Speaker 2: which was called Look for the Lights, which is The
8:39
Speaker 2: title is a mirror of the first episode when You're
8:41
Speaker 2: Lost in the Darkness with the title with the title
8:43
Speaker 2: of that one, does this look for the light?
8:45
Speaker 1: As we have come.
8:46
Speaker 2: Full circle, you can see our upcoming episode on Marlene,
8:51
Speaker 2: who is very pivotal in this episode. It will have
8:54
Speaker 2: spoilers as well, if you don't mind season two slash
8:58
Speaker 2: Game two spoilers, because yes, they've announced season two and three.
9:01
Speaker 2: I believe the episode we did on Women in Survival
9:04
Speaker 2: Horror has more on some of the stuff I'm going
9:07
Speaker 2: to talk about, probably put more eloquently because this is
9:09
Speaker 2: just kind of me throwing thoughts and an outline. So
9:15
Speaker 2: also the episode we did on Ali, but that one
9:17
Speaker 2: will spoil everything for you, so I wouldn't recommend it
9:19
Speaker 2: if you don't wantny spoilers, but if you do, it's
9:22
Speaker 2: available to you. Yes, content warning for this one. Suicidality,
9:28
Speaker 2: brief mention of that violence particularly like child endangement perhaps,
9:35
Speaker 2: but overall, yeah, violence and suicidality I think are the
9:37
Speaker 2: big ones this one. Yes, yeah, yeah, And thanks to you,
9:44
Speaker 2: Samantha is always for hosting these watch parties at your home.
9:49
Speaker 1: It was great. It was lost fun.
9:52
Speaker 3: The last one was Saint Patrick's Day themed with the
9:55
Speaker 3: Korean yes splashed in there.
9:58
Speaker 2: It was delicious. It was delicious, and I cried a
10:02
Speaker 2: whole time.
10:03
Speaker 3: But she cried the whole time. She brought decorations like
10:07
Speaker 3: she was ready diffreak decorations.
10:10
Speaker 1: I was so ready.
10:12
Speaker 2: Well, Samantha, can you give us your excellent freecap?
10:16
Speaker 3: All right? So it's a short episode, but it has
10:18
Speaker 3: so much in it, and it opens up with what
10:20
Speaker 3: we see as a woman running through the woods. We
10:23
Speaker 3: get the back of our head. There was a lot
10:24
Speaker 3: of controversy is who is that? During the interview I
10:27
Speaker 3: knew because IMDb. Anyway, so as we are watching, it
10:31
Speaker 3: turns out to be a woman who was very pregnant
10:33
Speaker 3: running into a farmhouse saying hello, I'm here. Where are you?
10:36
Speaker 3: No one's there. She runs into a room, she locks
10:39
Speaker 3: the door and then shoves a chair there. We hear
10:41
Speaker 3: that she is obviously going into labor real struggles. At
10:44
Speaker 3: the same time, we see a clicker or a zombie.
10:46
Speaker 3: What are there? Or they're a runner? What are they called?
10:49
Speaker 1: I think that was a clicker infected? Infected?
10:52
Speaker 3: Oh, just infected? Okay, So they run in and she
10:55
Speaker 3: is having an epic battle. We see a knife that
10:58
Speaker 3: we've seen before, and then we see an epic stabbing
11:02
Speaker 3: of the neck which we saw before as well, and
11:05
Speaker 3: then her sitting there and realizing, oh god, she gave
11:08
Speaker 3: birth at the same time, oh god, I got bitten
11:10
Speaker 3: on my leg. She quickly cuts in milk cord and
11:13
Speaker 3: she is talking to the baby, talking about how tough
11:16
Speaker 3: they are. Turns out it's Ellie and yes, this is
11:18
Speaker 3: mom mom Anna, who is played by Ashley Johnson. Yes
11:21
Speaker 3: she is significant. We love her, we love her voice.
11:24
Speaker 3: As time goes on, it grows dark. We see Marlene
11:26
Speaker 3: and obviously some fireflies coming in, realizing that the door's locked,
11:31
Speaker 3: but get in, go upstairs, finding Anna sitting by herself
11:35
Speaker 3: with a baby, and then Marlene realizes quickly that she
11:38
Speaker 3: has been bit, and at that point Anna was like, Ellie,
11:42
Speaker 3: this is my baby. Take her to give her to
11:44
Speaker 3: someone who would care for her. She was not infected.
11:47
Speaker 3: I was bitten after I cut the umbilical cord. And
11:51
Speaker 3: then once you take her, you must kill me because
11:54
Speaker 3: she is bitten. Marlene, And it turns out that Marlene
11:57
Speaker 3: and Anna have been friends all their lives and they've
11:59
Speaker 3: known each other forever. Marlene just says she can't do it,
12:03
Speaker 3: she can't kill her, but Anna's pleading. We turn back around,
12:06
Speaker 3: Marlene gives the baby to another firefly. Marlen comes back
12:09
Speaker 3: and executes her essentially, and we jump to present day,
12:13
Speaker 3: where we see a traumatized Ellie walking about and just
12:16
Speaker 3: obviously looking into the distance as Joel is trying to
12:19
Speaker 3: talk to her. Obviously very different conversations now because he's
12:22
Speaker 3: being very caring and over the top, like hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,
12:26
Speaker 3: how are you finding a chef boyardi canned of food,
12:30
Speaker 3: hoping that she would get excited, as well as Boggle,
12:33
Speaker 3: which I don't think was in the it was in
12:34
Speaker 3: the actual game, right, talking about how you know this
12:37
Speaker 3: is the one thing that he would get beaten by
12:40
Speaker 3: he can't play it very well, and he's she's obviously
12:42
Speaker 3: in the distance. He's like, you would you like that?
12:44
Speaker 3: She's like sure, why not? Talks about the guitar that
12:46
Speaker 3: he found and taking a hell and her that, hey,
12:49
Speaker 3: what if I found one and teach you how to
12:50
Speaker 3: play the guitar. She's still distracted, but she's like sure, sure, sure.
12:53
Speaker 3: So they go onto getting closer to their place. They
12:57
Speaker 3: have this whole thing about like, Okay, we're here, what
12:59
Speaker 3: are we going to do? And she's like, I know
13:01
Speaker 3: you want you want me to go in, Let you in,
13:03
Speaker 3: go to the top and look for and scout out
13:06
Speaker 3: arout blah blah blah. He makes a joke. He was like, no,
13:08
Speaker 3: we're gonna go and cause a big explosion and just
13:12
Speaker 3: to run everything down and she's like really, He's like no,
13:14
Speaker 3: so fun times they go in. He says, I'm gonna
13:17
Speaker 3: lift you up there send the ladder down, and he
13:21
Speaker 3: this is a part of the game, by the way,
13:22
Speaker 3: that's the whole thing. So he pushes her up and
13:25
Speaker 3: she throws down the ladder and she's like, oh my god,
13:27
Speaker 3: just look at you have to come see this, and
13:28
Speaker 3: he's freaking out. He's like Ellie, stay put, stay put,
13:31
Speaker 3: and then he runs all the way up and she
13:33
Speaker 3: comes to a giraffe. Yes, And it is a scene.
13:36
Speaker 3: I do remember this scene in the game where they
13:39
Speaker 3: find a giraffe and she's like, wow, you can't beat this.
13:42
Speaker 1: View.
13:42
Speaker 3: It's very sweet moment. She's kind of coming back to herself,
13:46
Speaker 3: giggling and having a good time feeding this giraffe and
13:50
Speaker 3: having a moment together As they continue the journey, he
13:54
Speaker 3: kind of talks about all his trauma and what he
13:56
Speaker 3: has gone through and talks about the fact that he
13:59
Speaker 3: had you know. They come to a barracks where the
14:02
Speaker 3: army had set up a medical tent for those that
14:04
Speaker 3: could be possibly infected, and she was trying to like, oh,
14:06
Speaker 3: who would have used this? He's like, I used this
14:09
Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, is this when you and Sarah
14:11
Speaker 3: got injured? And he's like no. After that, she's like, oh,
14:14
Speaker 3: when that dude missed you shooting you. He's like, well, yeah,
14:17
Speaker 3: and then he tells the whole story about how he
14:20
Speaker 3: had actually tried to shoot himself, missed and flinched and
14:23
Speaker 3: that's the first time he had ever done it and
14:24
Speaker 3: he didn't know why, but he doesn't regret it now.
14:27
Speaker 3: And she's like, yeah, I don't regret it either. I
14:29
Speaker 3: know why you told me to do the story just
14:32
Speaker 3: to keep going, and he's like, no, we just know
14:34
Speaker 3: that I'm here blah blah blah. So it was really
14:36
Speaker 3: bought good bonding experience that I just blah blah blah.
14:38
Speaker 3: But it's okay. As they keep going, they're having a
14:40
Speaker 3: good conversation about how we don't have to go here.
14:44
Speaker 3: You and I could just do our own thing, go
14:46
Speaker 3: back to Tommy's and we can go home. And she
14:48
Speaker 3: was like, I have to do this. This is my purpose.
14:50
Speaker 3: What was the point of everybody sacrificed if I don't
14:52
Speaker 3: do this? But after this, I'll go anywhere with you.
14:56
Speaker 3: We can do be sheep, farmers or whatever, but I
14:58
Speaker 3: will go with you after we get this done. So
15:00
Speaker 3: they check through it all of a sudden, no, no,
15:02
Speaker 3: we see a bomb and he's like, oh no, let
15:04
Speaker 3: me throw myself in front of her and both of
15:05
Speaker 3: them kind of get knocked out and he's like Ella, Ellie,
15:07
Speaker 3: and someone comes over and he gets kicked in the
15:09
Speaker 3: head and then push his lights around. Next thing we
15:12
Speaker 3: see is he's waking up in the middle of the
15:13
Speaker 3: hospital room and Marlene is there and he's like what
15:16
Speaker 3: is going on. She's like, calm down, calm down. My
15:18
Speaker 3: people attacked you. They didn't know who you were, but
15:21
Speaker 3: now you're safe. And he's like, where's Ellie And he's like,
15:24
Speaker 3: she's here, she's getting prepped for surgery. He's like, I
15:27
Speaker 3: want to see her. She's like, no, you can't, and
15:29
Speaker 3: then says that the doctor says, oh, we can probably
15:32
Speaker 3: get a cure by doing these things because she is immune,
15:35
Speaker 3: and they think she's already got cordyceps and they're going
15:37
Speaker 3: to do these things. And he's like, wait, the cordyceps
15:39
Speaker 3: live in the brain. She's like correct. And at that
15:42
Speaker 3: point he's like, how you can't do this, it'll kill her.
15:44
Speaker 3: She's like, you know, we have to do this. This
15:46
Speaker 3: is for the humanity. And at this point we know
15:50
Speaker 3: that no one's talked to Ellie. She's like, I didn't
15:52
Speaker 3: tell her anything. I didn't want her to worry. I
15:53
Speaker 3: just you know, let her do her thing all this stuff.
15:57
Speaker 3: She's like, you know, I can't believe you made at
15:58
Speaker 3: this sup far, you know, one of the few. How
16:01
Speaker 3: did you do it? Good job. But now that you've
16:03
Speaker 3: done it, we're going to get followed through with this.
16:07
Speaker 3: And she has her people escort him out with a
16:10
Speaker 3: bag and says that if he does anything, shoot him.
16:12
Speaker 3: So obviously like yeah, this is a really tense moment.
16:15
Speaker 3: So he gets escorted out and we see him doing
16:18
Speaker 3: some things, scouting some things, and all of a sudden
16:20
Speaker 3: doing his little thing and then killing all the people's
16:23
Speaker 3: So he turns the gun and he goes through with
16:25
Speaker 3: the entire hospital just mowing people down. Real gruesome, real gross,
16:29
Speaker 3: real sad, and coming to find where Ellie is in
16:34
Speaker 3: the operating room, where the doctor pulls up his capole.
16:37
Speaker 3: He's like, what are you doing in here? And he's like,
16:38
Speaker 3: unhook her and he's like, I won't let you take her.
16:41
Speaker 3: The doctor says this, in which Joel's response to shoot
16:45
Speaker 3: him in the head, which makes everybody scream, and then
16:48
Speaker 3: he tells the nurses to unhook her. He grabs her.
16:50
Speaker 3: While he tells the nurses to turn around, he doesn't
16:52
Speaker 3: shoot them, which is unlike the game. He does shoot
16:54
Speaker 3: them in the game, but as he carries her out,
16:57
Speaker 3: we see her in the elevator in his a moment
17:00
Speaker 3: of like obviously like a lot of heart and a
17:03
Speaker 3: lot of thoughts going through his head. And then we
17:06
Speaker 3: as he gets to the car that he has found,
17:08
Speaker 3: Marlene approaches him, tried to reason with him, saying, you know,
17:13
Speaker 3: we can fix this, we can do this. This has
17:15
Speaker 3: to happen, and he's like, you know, you can't choose
17:18
Speaker 3: for her, and she's like, neither can you, and then
17:21
Speaker 3: also saying you know this is what Ellie would want,
17:23
Speaker 3: didn't you know, it's obvious this is what Ellie wanted.
17:26
Speaker 3: Most likely, she would have wanted it even if it
17:28
Speaker 3: did being her death, because she needed her life to
17:30
Speaker 3: mean purpose. That's me reading into things whatever. But as
17:33
Speaker 3: we continue on, they're having this back and forth and
17:36
Speaker 3: he shoots Marlene. After Marlene puts her gun down, trying
17:39
Speaker 3: to be reasonable, runs to the car. Next thing we
17:42
Speaker 3: see is him driving the truck with Ellie waking up
17:46
Speaker 3: kind of drugged, and he's like, hey, hey, it's okay,
17:48
Speaker 3: it's okay, you're with me. Is the drugs that? She's like,
17:52
Speaker 3: what happened? And he was like, you know, turns out
17:55
Speaker 3: there was others who had been immune and nothing was working,
17:58
Speaker 3: so he just grabbed her. Was like, you know, and
18:01
Speaker 3: they've got plenty more people to work with. It just
18:03
Speaker 3: doesn't work, but they don't need you. And she's like, well,
18:06
Speaker 3: did anybody get hurt? And he's like yes, and then
18:09
Speaker 3: she's like Marlene and he doesn't really respond, and then
18:12
Speaker 3: she's like, why where's my clothes? He's like, well, raiders
18:15
Speaker 3: came through soor you know, we had to move real
18:17
Speaker 3: quickly and I could barely get you out of there,
18:19
Speaker 3: and then she just kind of after it and then
18:22
Speaker 3: she asked the Marlene question. He doesn't answer, and she
18:25
Speaker 3: just kind of rolls over, and that's what we see.
18:28
Speaker 3: But come back to the flashback and we realize that
18:31
Speaker 3: Marlene is still alive after he shot her in the
18:33
Speaker 3: stomach and grunting and he's like, you know. She's like,
18:36
Speaker 3: you don't have to do this, don't You don't have
18:38
Speaker 3: to kill me, and he's like, you'll come after her
18:39
Speaker 3: if I don't. So he shoots her kills her dead,
18:42
Speaker 3: and then we come back. Their car stalls out, and
18:46
Speaker 3: then they are near the mountain. He's like, five hour hike,
18:50
Speaker 3: we can do that. She's like, yes, we can do that.
18:52
Speaker 3: And as they walk through they finally make it to
18:56
Speaker 3: he's talking about his daughter and about how much they
18:59
Speaker 3: hallot like each other and all these things. He's very
19:02
Speaker 3: he's talking an awful lot, kind of like he's talking
19:05
Speaker 3: out of guilt. And then right before they hit the
19:09
Speaker 3: they hit the village that they can see the town
19:11
Speaker 3: that is at from the top of the dock. We
19:13
Speaker 3: made it essentially, and before they get there, she was like,
19:15
Speaker 3: I have to know, you know, I want to tell
19:17
Speaker 3: you about the first time I killed somebody, and she
19:19
Speaker 3: talked about Riley and then she was like, but I
19:22
Speaker 3: need you to promise me swear to me that what
19:25
Speaker 3: you said to me about the fireflies was true, what
19:26
Speaker 3: happened in the hospital was true. He goes, I swear
19:29
Speaker 3: and then she makes a face. She says, okay, endsing
19:35
Speaker 3: m hm.
19:35
Speaker 1: Oh.
19:36
Speaker 3: There was a minute with a pun book. He was like,
19:37
Speaker 3: I want more puns than Annie's favorite pun before they
19:41
Speaker 3: get jumped was the grapes pun.
19:43
Speaker 1: He gave it a three out of yeah.
19:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Annie's crying right now, there's tears in her eyes.
19:49
Speaker 1: I tell you, Oh my god.
19:55
Speaker 3: I want to say it's because of my fantastic dramatic recap,
19:59
Speaker 3: but even just start thinking about it.
20:03
Speaker 1: It can be both.
20:19
Speaker 2: That was a fantastic dramatic recap. Thank you Smith. It
20:24
Speaker 2: is interesting because this is the shortest one, but the
20:27
Speaker 2: ending is so pivotal and there's so much to say
20:30
Speaker 2: about it that uh and they do pack in a
20:33
Speaker 2: lot in it.
20:35
Speaker 1: They do.
20:36
Speaker 3: I feel it's very reminiscent of the game because it
20:38
Speaker 3: goes whosh an end, but it is impactful, but you're
20:42
Speaker 3: not going to know why it's impactful until season two.
20:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part of the reason it upsets me so much.
20:49
Speaker 2: I will have a few I will have a few
20:51
Speaker 2: vague hints too, but no spoilers at all, I promise.
20:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, and it is in the game. It
20:57
Speaker 1: is very, very loyal to the game.
20:59
Speaker 2: There are a few character differences that I have been
21:01
Speaker 2: talking about, and I'm going to talk about more in
21:02
Speaker 2: a second, but like, pretty much that's what happens. Is like,
21:05
Speaker 2: after this horrifying thing in Winter where Ellie goes to
21:09
Speaker 2: this really traumatic experience, it cuts to Spring again. It's
21:14
Speaker 2: split into seasons, and it just very quickly wraps up,
21:19
Speaker 2: like to the point you're kind of shaken by it
21:22
Speaker 2: about how quickly things go from oh, this could be
21:25
Speaker 2: a hopeful ending to oh wow.
21:29
Speaker 1: What just happens?
21:30
Speaker 2: And as you were kind of calling out, there were
21:34
Speaker 2: several callbacks in this episode to earlier episodes. I think
21:38
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure Joel's wearing the same shirt at the
21:41
Speaker 2: end that he was wearing like right at the beginning
21:44
Speaker 2: of the outbreak in Boston. That can't deny that viewline
21:49
Speaker 2: five mile hike, the guitar, the puns, of course, Riley,
21:54
Speaker 2: the chef boyer D and I feel like it was
21:56
Speaker 2: a really good way to show this like journey that
21:58
Speaker 2: we've all been on over the.
22:00
Speaker 1: Past nine episodes.
22:03
Speaker 2: And I did want to call out a few things
22:06
Speaker 2: before we get into the crux of this, which is
22:09
Speaker 2: these choices made at the end, one being Ashley Johnson,
22:14
Speaker 2: who played Anna, Ellie's mother.
22:18
Speaker 1: She was amazing. She was amazing.
22:21
Speaker 2: We've said it before in previous podcasts and episodes of this,
22:25
Speaker 2: but she was the voice actor in motion capture person
22:29
Speaker 2: for Ellie. She kind of like really embodied that role
22:32
Speaker 2: for a lot of people became Ellie, and so when
22:35
Speaker 2: I was watching it, you hear her voice and it's
22:38
Speaker 2: hard not to think of Ellie at first. But I
22:41
Speaker 2: do think they did a really good job, and they
22:42
Speaker 2: talked about that with Bella Ramsey, where that was one
22:44
Speaker 2: of the reasons they put this scene in the game
22:47
Speaker 2: that in the show that is not in the game.
22:49
Speaker 2: You don't see Anna giving birth to Ellie, you don't
22:53
Speaker 2: see her dying, but kind of this like playing the
22:56
Speaker 2: mother of the character, sort of giving birth to Ellie
23:00
Speaker 2: and almost a passing of the torch.
23:02
Speaker 1: But Bella Ramsay has.
23:05
Speaker 2: Become Ellie too, in her own right, Like, so I
23:08
Speaker 2: think they did like an excellent job with that, But
23:11
Speaker 2: that was really really cool to see her, to see
23:15
Speaker 2: her do it. Also, no spoilers, but if you know,
23:20
Speaker 2: you know pretty sure Abby wasn't in it, you can see her.
23:23
Speaker 2: I've like it was an article her.
23:30
Speaker 1: Once you see it, you're like, oh, yeah, that was
23:32
Speaker 1: probably her.
23:33
Speaker 2: Also, the voice actor Laura Bailey is one of the
23:37
Speaker 2: nurses uh at the end, So that's super cool the
23:40
Speaker 2: voice actor of Abby. As I mentioned in the last episode,
23:44
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things about this section is how
23:47
Speaker 2: it starts. Where as you were saying, Ellie was very despondent.
23:51
Speaker 2: She's distant. I like that that she doesn't just like
23:56
Speaker 2: bounce back from this horrible thing that's happened to her,
23:59
Speaker 2: and it clearly impact and stays with her. I do
24:03
Speaker 2: love this because I feel like I got my TikTok friends,
24:05
Speaker 2: I got my Reddit friends. Katie, who was part of
24:09
Speaker 2: our viewing parties, is my Reddit friend one of them,
24:13
Speaker 2: and she was telling me about this like really powerful
24:15
Speaker 2: thread she found about rape survivors. You found a lot
24:20
Speaker 2: of power in this depiction of Ellie, So I thought
24:25
Speaker 2: that was really interesting. Through that you do see all
24:29
Speaker 2: of these instances of Joel trying to cheer her up
24:32
Speaker 2: that are just kind of not working, like she's playing
24:34
Speaker 2: along with it, but she's kind of like And the giraffe,
24:40
Speaker 2: it was a real giraffe. It's so cool to see
24:42
Speaker 2: how they shot it. There was some CGI, but it's
24:45
Speaker 2: a real giraffe. Oh, it's so neat. And they were
24:48
Speaker 2: talking about how they had to leave it in because
24:49
Speaker 2: it is one of those like sweet scenes where you
24:52
Speaker 2: get to see Ellie's still have that kind of innocent
24:55
Speaker 2: curiosity that she has had. And in the game, you
25:00
Speaker 2: can watch that scene for as far as I know, forever,
25:05
Speaker 2: like eventually the drafts leave, so you're just staring off
25:07
Speaker 2: into the distance. But you have to make the choice
25:09
Speaker 2: to kind of as Joel, to interrupt Ellie and be like, hey,
25:14
Speaker 2: we don't have to do this if you don't want
25:15
Speaker 2: to do it, and that's when Ellie has her like you, No,
25:18
Speaker 2: after everything I've done, we have to see this through.
25:22
Speaker 2: But this brings us to what I love. I have
25:25
Speaker 2: seen several headlines calling it the great Joel Debate, Oh
25:32
Speaker 2: I love it, and Bella Ramsey we mentioned it previously,
25:36
Speaker 2: but she did say she knew this was gonna happen,
25:40
Speaker 2: as did we who have played the game. It's been there,
25:43
Speaker 2: but like a massive divide in the fan base about this.
25:45
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the trolley problem but.
25:49
Speaker 2: To the nth degree. And I, well, I have a
25:56
Speaker 2: lot of thoughts about it. I think that as I
25:58
Speaker 2: said in the first episode, when I didn't know this
26:02
Speaker 2: was going to be a series, I made the point
26:04
Speaker 2: that in the final scene where you're making your way
26:07
Speaker 2: to Jackson back to Tommy's after all of this silence
26:11
Speaker 2: has happened, after Joel has lied to Ellie, you're playing
26:14
Speaker 2: as Ellie, which I think is important that you're getting
26:18
Speaker 2: kind of her POV. That they made that choice very deliberately,
26:23
Speaker 2: and she's still very out of it, clearly wrestling with
26:27
Speaker 2: this turn of events. But I just think that was
26:30
Speaker 2: purposeful that they have that final scene that you're playing
26:33
Speaker 2: as her, and it is one of the most haunting
26:35
Speaker 2: endings I've ever played, Like it gives me goosebumps just
26:38
Speaker 2: thinking about it. And they did that, like that shot
26:41
Speaker 2: is just her face. That's the final shot, and she's
26:44
Speaker 2: clearly like struggling with what to do here and what
26:47
Speaker 2: to believe and that is that is a really big
26:51
Speaker 2: part of her stories. We've been talking about that survivor's guilt,
26:58
Speaker 2: and that's when she's saying, you know, first it was Riley,
27:01
Speaker 2: and then it was tests, and then it was you know,
27:04
Speaker 2: she's listing off all these people who died specifically from
27:08
Speaker 2: infected and her feeling like that's her fault, she could
27:15
Speaker 2: she could fix this, that that is her fault, and
27:20
Speaker 2: that that is something she just struggles with so much.
27:26
Speaker 2: And people, I'm telling you, people are interviewing philosophers, they're
27:32
Speaker 2: interviewing psychologists, they're interviewing professors.
27:34
Speaker 1: About this, about what went down here, about what Joel did.
27:40
Speaker 2: And it does go back to that question that they posed,
27:43
Speaker 2: we posed earlier, and they posed earlier in the behind
27:47
Speaker 2: the scenes of like what would you do for love?
27:49
Speaker 2: Like the dark side of love? Taking it to the
27:52
Speaker 2: really far and of that dark spectrum of love, like
27:57
Speaker 2: how many will you kill? How many will you condemn?
28:00
Speaker 2: And one of the things that keep going back to
28:04
Speaker 2: is that I feel like there is also a conversation
28:08
Speaker 2: to be had here around agency and loneliness and love
28:14
Speaker 2: because one of the things I feel, and this is
28:17
Speaker 2: up for interpretation, I know, but I feel like Joel
28:24
Speaker 2: he does love Ellie, but I think he's more concerned
28:28
Speaker 2: about loneliness and what will happen to him without her.
28:33
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, and I'm going to
28:34
Speaker 2: get into this in a second, a lot of people
28:36
Speaker 2: try to really explain his actions are like why they're okay,
28:40
Speaker 2: And a lot of times it comes out, well, I
28:42
Speaker 2: was did it for love, which is not an acceptable
28:44
Speaker 2: answer in my opinion. But also I think there's also
28:48
Speaker 2: a there of it. I think it's complex, but I
28:50
Speaker 2: do think he was really there was a selfishness to it.
28:56
Speaker 2: I don't even know if that's the right word. But
28:57
Speaker 2: he didn't want to be alone anymore. He didn't want
28:59
Speaker 2: to go through this loss again, and so it was
29:01
Speaker 2: that as well. And if you go back and look
29:04
Speaker 2: at like the whole above me the way I want
29:07
Speaker 2: you to line with Bill and Frank, and you know,
29:12
Speaker 2: Frank saying I've had a good life, this is what
29:17
Speaker 2: I want, and Bill being devastated by that, but ultimately
29:22
Speaker 2: doing as Frank wanted versus Ellie and Joel, where I
29:28
Speaker 2: think Joel was too afraid to ask her what she wanted.
29:31
Speaker 2: And you can bring in like she is a child.
29:34
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's her adult, but she is a
29:35
Speaker 2: child who is traumatized, so she might not make the
29:38
Speaker 2: healthiest decision. But also who's making these super healthy decisions
29:41
Speaker 2: in the apocalypse. I'm not sure anybody is. But you
29:49
Speaker 2: also have like you know, in Bill's letter where he's saying,
29:54
Speaker 2: this is what men like us do. We fight to
29:56
Speaker 2: protect those we love, and means like Joel sort of
30:02
Speaker 2: interpreted that in a way that maybe wasn't what Bill
30:06
Speaker 2: exactly meant, kind of.
30:07
Speaker 1: What he meant, but not exactly what he meant because
30:11
Speaker 1: of what the choice he made with Frank.
30:13
Speaker 2: But also if you look at like Ellie and Riley
30:16
Speaker 2: and what happens when you know they promise to die
30:20
Speaker 2: together versus Bill and Frank versus Ellie and Joel. I
30:23
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of interesting juxtapositions there. But I
30:28
Speaker 2: think this is where I want to be very clear here,
30:33
Speaker 2: because I think this is where my issue comes in.
30:38
Speaker 1: Is not even necessarily.
30:41
Speaker 2: The end, which I love the ending, but the fan
30:45
Speaker 2: reaction to the ending, and especially in the gamer community,
30:47
Speaker 2: because I do want to say I am talking a
30:49
Speaker 2: lot about the game too, and maybe even more and
30:52
Speaker 2: I'll try to be clear about that, but that's where
30:56
Speaker 2: a lot of my kind of like hesitation, like defensiveness
31:01
Speaker 2: and anger comes up when I talk about it is
31:04
Speaker 2: more the fan reaction to the ending than the actual ending,
31:08
Speaker 2: which I like a lot. I think it's very, very haunting,
31:12
Speaker 2: and I saw a great article that was like, it's
31:15
Speaker 2: not meant to be triumphants, It's meant to be tragic,
31:18
Speaker 2: whereas I think a lot of fans who played it
31:20
Speaker 2: felt triumphant at it, which I don't think was intended
31:25
Speaker 2: at all. But you know, I also think, as I
31:27
Speaker 2: was saying, a lot of people do try to justify what.
31:31
Speaker 1: Joel did, and there's some.
31:33
Speaker 2: Plenty of good faith arguments, for sure, but there are
31:36
Speaker 2: plenty of bad faith ones. I personally think the fight
31:38
Speaker 2: about the vaccine misses the point about whether or not
31:40
Speaker 2: it would have worked. It certainly implied that it would
31:42
Speaker 2: have scientifically in our real world, I don't think so,
31:46
Speaker 2: but it certainly implied definitely in the game that they
31:49
Speaker 2: had run tests they were pretty confident it was going
31:52
Speaker 2: to work. So I think that misses the point. I
31:55
Speaker 2: think if you're like going into outside like, well, I
31:58
Speaker 2: don't know, because in reality. In reality, even though cortersets
32:04
Speaker 2: could in fact us the likelihood is extremely small. I
32:06
Speaker 2: hope that doesn't come back to bite me this one day.
32:08
Speaker 2: But like, I don't think that is like a good
32:11
Speaker 2: faith argument in my opinion, A lot of people are
32:12
Speaker 2: trying to make it. I don't think this that's legit,
32:17
Speaker 2: because yeah, it's not. And I remember I had this
32:21
Speaker 2: conversation with a good friend of mine about it. You're
32:23
Speaker 2: not meant supposed to feel good about what you've done
32:27
Speaker 2: at the end, at least that's the.
32:28
Speaker 1: Vibe I got. You're supposed to be like, oh God,
32:31
Speaker 1: what have I done?
32:33
Speaker 2: And people seem to be trying to find these ways,
32:36
Speaker 2: especially as players of the game, when you have been
32:37
Speaker 2: playing this character the whole time, you are behind a
32:40
Speaker 2: lot of the actions that he did as the player,
32:44
Speaker 2: that you try and find these ways to make yourself
32:46
Speaker 2: feel better about what you just did, which was like tragic.
32:51
Speaker 2: And I think another thing that gets lost in this is.
32:57
Speaker 1: We do see Joel change.
32:59
Speaker 2: He does be come, you know, softer with Ellie like Kinder,
33:04
Speaker 2: He's still very very violent. You do see him become
33:08
Speaker 2: kind of this more caring person, but the fireflies when
33:12
Speaker 2: he gets there. They have no way of knowing that,
33:14
Speaker 2: like the last time they saw him, he was I'm
33:17
Speaker 2: pretty sure he had like killed some of their people,
33:19
Speaker 2: or at very least was like violent towards some of
33:21
Speaker 2: their people. And not to say that they weren't aggressors either,
33:25
Speaker 2: but like they didn't have a good relationship, I guess
33:27
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. And they'd seen him outright not want
33:30
Speaker 2: to take Ellie, kind of throw her around in the show,
33:34
Speaker 2: and so they don't know when he arrives. We do
33:38
Speaker 2: as the viewers, and I get that can be hard
33:39
Speaker 2: to separate, but they don't know that Marlene, you could argue,
33:44
Speaker 2: especially in the game, has more claim to Ellie than
33:47
Speaker 2: Joel does. But she does seem to sense and I've
33:50
Speaker 2: been thinking of she kind of gets the understanding that
33:53
Speaker 2: he does care about Ellie, and I think it's because
33:55
Speaker 2: she's kind of taken aback that he went through all
33:58
Speaker 2: of this effort to travel across the country to get
34:01
Speaker 2: her there, and so she has this sense of like, oh, Okay,
34:05
Speaker 2: he's really grown to care about her, And a lot
34:10
Speaker 2: of people, you know, say like they could have just
34:13
Speaker 2: talked it out. I'm not sure, I personally don't think.
34:16
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that could have been a good,
34:18
Speaker 2: nice step, but I don't think anybody would have changed
34:20
Speaker 2: her mind or it would have changed the action.
34:36
Speaker 1: As we've been saying.
34:37
Speaker 2: Also throughout this, they did make Joel softer in the
34:41
Speaker 2: show than in the game. They made him more sympathetic,
34:44
Speaker 2: and in fact, somebody who doesn't who I actually don't
34:49
Speaker 2: know what I know through a friends had just played
34:51
Speaker 2: the game watched the first episode of the show and
34:53
Speaker 2: was like, wow, they made him so much like nicer,
34:56
Speaker 2: So it's a parent. It's not just me, it's it's apparent.
35:01
Speaker 2: And at the same time, they made Ellie and Marlene harder,
35:06
Speaker 2: kind of harsher, which I think they did for a
35:10
Speaker 2: lot of reasons, but one of the big one is
35:11
Speaker 2: knowing this ending was going to be so possibly very controversial,
35:17
Speaker 2: how are they going to stick behind this character. There's
35:20
Speaker 2: also the whole conversation of him of Joel replacing Sarah
35:26
Speaker 2: with Ellie, so at the end when he's kind of
35:28
Speaker 2: comparing Ellie to Sarah and he keeps making these like, oh,
35:34
Speaker 2: but you know, she was a bit earlier than you.
35:36
Speaker 2: Not that that's bad thing, but you were like this,
35:38
Speaker 2: and she would have liked you for this, Like it
35:40
Speaker 2: has that kind of vibe if he's really trying to
35:44
Speaker 2: both both remember Sarah but put Ellie in this role
35:47
Speaker 2: of being his daughter, and that idea again of what
35:53
Speaker 2: would he do if he lost another Sarah, if he
35:57
Speaker 2: loses Ellie, what he'll do out her? And maybe in
36:04
Speaker 2: a way that is not taking into account Ellie so
36:08
Speaker 2: much as compared to himself. He is very traumatized about failing.
36:14
Speaker 2: In his mind, he has failed. He failed Thereah, Tommy,
36:18
Speaker 2: and Tess, So I think that also got tied up
36:20
Speaker 2: in that. But you know, as we said in that episode,
36:23
Speaker 2: episode six, he doesn't have that conversation about like his
36:25
Speaker 2: anxiety around failing in the game either. There's certainly the
36:30
Speaker 2: cycle of trauma. He can't see past his own grief.
36:33
Speaker 2: But also, you know, as I said before, the games
36:38
Speaker 2: do that so well, and I think the show did
36:40
Speaker 2: it so well too. But like when you see one
36:43
Speaker 2: character kills another character, that character now has that trauma
36:47
Speaker 2: and they go on to cause more trauma, and then
36:49
Speaker 2: they go on to cause more trauma. I do think
36:52
Speaker 2: and I talked about this more and the Survival Women
36:55
Speaker 2: in Survival Horror episode I think that we do as
36:59
Speaker 2: a society excuse men's trauma more easily, or like we
37:03
Speaker 2: accept what they do because of trauma, like we're around
37:06
Speaker 2: violence and anger more easily, and I think Joel is
37:11
Speaker 2: certainly an example of that. I haven't really dived into
37:15
Speaker 2: this with the show, but in the game, absolutely absolutely,
37:20
Speaker 2: and people love Pedro Pascal, so I would not be
37:24
Speaker 2: surprised at all. There's also the juxtaposition which they hinted
37:28
Speaker 2: at in episode eight of Ellie not really needing a
37:31
Speaker 2: father versus Joel realizing that he does need a daughter,
37:36
Speaker 2: and that kind of coming to a head, and that
37:41
Speaker 2: whole idea of the violent heart, of Ellie having a
37:43
Speaker 2: violent heart, of Joel having this violent heart, and we
37:47
Speaker 2: certainly saw that play out. There is that around that
37:50
Speaker 2: discussion when he's talking about how he almost took his
37:54
Speaker 2: own life and he flinched and Ellie says what they
37:59
Speaker 2: said in behind this, the behind the episode thing was,
38:01
Speaker 2: you know, Ellie thinks she's taken the lesson, which is
38:04
Speaker 2: time heals all wounds. But cognizing the showrunner said time fades,
38:10
Speaker 2: people heal, and so Joel is implying like Ellie has
38:15
Speaker 2: healed him and again, he doesn't know what will happen
38:22
Speaker 2: if if she's gone, And I also it's kind of
38:25
Speaker 2: grappling with what do I think about is he putting
38:29
Speaker 2: too much of his healing on Ellie? Like I kind
38:31
Speaker 2: of get the message, but it's also like he needs
38:34
Speaker 2: to do some he needs to do some in her work.
38:43
Speaker 2: And then I think one of the biggest differences is
38:46
Speaker 2: how they portrayed Marlene, which is interesting because she is
38:48
Speaker 2: like the same actress in the game in the show,
38:53
Speaker 2: and I don't think I don't think she's like different
38:55
Speaker 2: too drastically. It's just more of what they showed about
38:58
Speaker 2: her character in the show versus what they did in
39:00
Speaker 2: the game, because you do learn.
39:02
Speaker 1: A lot more about her in the game.
39:03
Speaker 2: She is another example I think of women leading in
39:07
Speaker 2: these like really difficult positions, because we saw that in
39:10
Speaker 2: episode two with the scientist saying, you know, we've got
39:13
Speaker 2: to bomb everything, realizing.
39:15
Speaker 1: It's going to include her.
39:16
Speaker 2: We saw it kind of with tests in the smaller
39:18
Speaker 2: sense of her kind of trying to rein in Joel
39:20
Speaker 2: and his more violent tendencies. And then you see Marlene
39:24
Speaker 2: who is having to make this just horrendous choice when
39:28
Speaker 2: this is her best friend's daughter, and she was there
39:31
Speaker 2: when she was born and promised to protect her and
39:35
Speaker 2: has been protecting her from Afar and having being put
39:39
Speaker 2: in the position to make that choice where it's weighing
39:41
Speaker 2: that versus potentially the survival of humanity. So I think
39:47
Speaker 2: my biggest thing is because it does often devolve into
39:50
Speaker 2: who was right Marlene versus Joel. I do think like
39:55
Speaker 2: you can see why they both made their decision right,
39:57
Speaker 2: You can see what she made her decision. You can
39:59
Speaker 2: also see that whole idea of her experiencing loss and
40:03
Speaker 2: not being able to save the ones you love. But
40:06
Speaker 2: I think she's thinking of it too in terms of
40:09
Speaker 2: the pandemic, like what all the people she's lost to
40:12
Speaker 2: this pandemic. What if there's a cure, you could save
40:15
Speaker 2: all of these people. It is pretty clear that she
40:18
Speaker 2: knew Anna lied about like cutting the umbilical cord before
40:23
Speaker 2: she got bitten, and kind of takes the chance on Ellie.
40:28
Speaker 2: But I do think people forget that part of it too,
40:30
Speaker 2: is people have lost. Everyone has but people have lost
40:33
Speaker 2: people too infected into the pandemic, And that's one way
40:36
Speaker 2: to think about it. In the game, she did save
40:39
Speaker 2: Joel though Joel doesn't know that because the Fireflies, a
40:43
Speaker 2: lot of them wanted to just kill him when he
40:45
Speaker 2: showed up because they didn't really trust him.
40:48
Speaker 1: And I kind of wonder if one of.
40:53
Speaker 2: The reasons she acted the way she did is she
40:55
Speaker 2: was worried he could talk her out of it, he
40:56
Speaker 2: could talk her out of this decision, because in the game,
41:00
Speaker 2: she's like it.
41:01
Speaker 1: She doesn't. She feels like she has no choice at all.
41:04
Speaker 2: So she's the one that insists he deserves no because
41:07
Speaker 2: he's the only other one who might know what she's
41:10
Speaker 2: going But she's the one who insists that Joel deserves
41:13
Speaker 2: to know, which is kind of tragic given what happens.
41:15
Speaker 2: But she's very out of it, like maybe he knows
41:19
Speaker 2: how I feel, And she didn't really want to be alone.
41:21
Speaker 2: She'd been struggling with all these like feelings of inadequacy,
41:25
Speaker 2: of not being a good leader, of depression. Again, if
41:29
Speaker 2: you've like just watched the show, you're listening to this,
41:31
Speaker 2: like what they don't really show it, but just to
41:33
Speaker 2: give you kind of some backstory of her. And as
41:37
Speaker 2: we've said throughout this, like there are no easy answers
41:39
Speaker 2: in the Last of Us. That's kind of the difficult
41:41
Speaker 2: thing is that there are no easy answers. You leave
41:46
Speaker 2: feeling conflicted, And I'm pretty sure that's what I'm pretty
41:50
Speaker 2: sure was intended, the complexity and the nuance. You leave
41:52
Speaker 2: feeling conflicted. It's this fan reaction where everybody was like,
41:56
Speaker 2: oh no, I love Joel though he did the right thing.
41:58
Speaker 2: That kind of gives me anxiety.
42:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:04
Speaker 2: Again, you get why people make the decisions they do
42:07
Speaker 2: because they've told these stories really well.
42:10
Speaker 1: The same with Kathleen and Henry.
42:12
Speaker 2: You might not agree with the decisions they make, but
42:14
Speaker 2: she'd get why they did. And it is a hard
42:19
Speaker 2: proposition to base a whole game on.
42:22
Speaker 1: Our story.
42:23
Speaker 2: Just protecting someone who is meant to be, especially in
42:28
Speaker 2: this world, kind of the ultimate example of innocence. And
42:31
Speaker 2: then you get to the end and you think you've
42:32
Speaker 2: been doing that and it turns out you're delivering her
42:36
Speaker 2: to her death. But I agree, I don't think that
42:42
Speaker 2: Ellie would have wanted at all what Joel did. She
42:47
Speaker 2: was struggling with survivor's guilt, so I think she would
42:50
Speaker 2: have wanted to go through with the surgery, and neither
42:54
Speaker 2: did ask Ellie what she'd want. I feel like Marlene
42:59
Speaker 2: was like, you know, we can wake her up right
43:01
Speaker 2: now at the token ask her. But Joel did not
43:05
Speaker 2: go through that, didn't want to do that. I think
43:08
Speaker 2: he knew, and Marlene even said like, I think you
43:10
Speaker 2: know it, and then Joel lies to Ellie, like they
43:14
Speaker 2: build up this trust and then he lies to her.
43:17
Speaker 2: I think it was more to protect himself than her.
43:20
Speaker 2: Some people would I would disagree, but I feel maybe
43:22
Speaker 2: at least both are going on. But he was definitely
43:24
Speaker 2: protecting himself, which breaks the trust. It breaks the trusts
43:29
Speaker 2: and you can see it pretty clear, like when she
43:30
Speaker 2: turns her back when he doesn't answer about Marlene, and
43:35
Speaker 2: he does like, yeah, I think he knew. That's why
43:39
Speaker 2: he couldn't tell her. And Ellie kind of forces herself
43:42
Speaker 2: to believe this because the truth is too scary. They
43:46
Speaker 2: did talk about in the behind the show thing like
43:48
Speaker 2: the Link's parents go for their kids, the lies they'll
43:51
Speaker 2: tell Marlene Angel two kids, the kind of unconditional love
43:56
Speaker 2: of a parent, that it's this big thought experiment of
43:59
Speaker 2: choosing one person you love over humanity.
44:02
Speaker 1: What would that look like? I do like.
44:06
Speaker 2: Pedro Pescal called it the horror and the humanity of
44:08
Speaker 2: it because you again you get it, but you're like
44:12
Speaker 2: horrified by it that someone could be capable of this
44:14
Speaker 2: in the name of something that should be that we've
44:17
Speaker 2: been often shown to be a good thing, like love
44:20
Speaker 2: and caring for a child. I will say in the game,
44:22
Speaker 2: you don't, at least I didn't. You don't want to
44:25
Speaker 2: kill the surgeon. In fact, you can go through not
44:28
Speaker 2: have to kill too many people in that final hospital stretch,
44:31
Speaker 2: but it's very difficult. You have to kill the surgeon,
44:35
Speaker 2: though it won't move on until you do. And Neil Juckman,
44:39
Speaker 2: who is the creator of the game, said Joel would
44:41
Speaker 2: never have made a different decision, and that's why they
44:42
Speaker 2: left that in there. This is also why some of
44:45
Speaker 2: the gamers get mad at to be like, well, my
44:47
Speaker 2: Joel would never have done that.
44:49
Speaker 1: But you made me do it. But the fact is
44:53
Speaker 1: Joel did it.
44:55
Speaker 2: It's also like how he did it because if you
44:57
Speaker 2: go back to Tommy's line, He's says, you know, there
45:00
Speaker 2: were other ways we could have survived other than violence,
45:03
Speaker 2: we just weren't any good at them. So this is
45:06
Speaker 2: kind of him of Joel reverting back into what he
45:08
Speaker 2: is good at, which is this violence. Because there are
45:12
Speaker 2: plenty of examples of people surrendering. As you said, in
45:15
Speaker 2: the game, he does kill the nurses as well. I
45:17
Speaker 2: love games that play with that formula of making you question,
45:21
Speaker 2: like how games work and you know, going back and
45:26
Speaker 2: looking at what you've done. I have seen a lot
45:30
Speaker 2: of dudes defend Joel by saying basically about Ellie, like
45:34
Speaker 2: he saved her life. She should be grateful, she should
45:36
Speaker 2: be thanking him, and the implication is almost like me,
45:40
Speaker 2: as Joel saved your life, he should be thinking me.
45:45
Speaker 2: But these are games that make you question your actions
45:48
Speaker 2: as a player and how games work in general. And
45:52
Speaker 2: I think this show did a really good job of
45:54
Speaker 2: I again, this is me. Maybe I felt like that
45:57
Speaker 2: capturing the horror of that part of watching something unravel
46:02
Speaker 2: where you thought it was going to go this way
46:05
Speaker 2: and then it doesn't, It goes not that way at all.
46:11
Speaker 2: I do think that this story is more nuanced than this,
46:16
Speaker 2: but it is still a pretty like masculine coded way
46:18
Speaker 2: of surviving, Like it's a you know, masculine dude protecting
46:23
Speaker 2: a young girl through violence. It is the apocalypse. But
46:27
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, ultimately there are elements of that.
46:32
Speaker 2: Certainly and there are yeah, fans who celebrate the ending
46:37
Speaker 2: because they see it as a display of strength, which
46:39
Speaker 2: just like horrifies me.
46:41
Speaker 1: And I've also I've said.
46:42
Speaker 2: Frequently like if you were playing as Ellie or if
46:45
Speaker 2: you were playing as Marlene, which I think for Marlene's
46:48
Speaker 2: respect would be really cool because she went through a
46:50
Speaker 2: lot of stuff to get over there, would you feel
46:52
Speaker 2: the same way if they did that?
46:54
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
46:55
Speaker 2: I think they wouldn't have gotten the same like positive
46:59
Speaker 2: react if they had made this choice that jolted and
47:02
Speaker 2: I will have more to say about to that really true. Yes, Also,
47:10
Speaker 2: like I think the name is very fitting because the
47:13
Speaker 2: whole game they're kind of looking for the light. There
47:15
Speaker 2: are a lot of examples of like Ellie being in
47:18
Speaker 2: the light. I know your partner pointed out in like
47:21
Speaker 2: episode two where there she's on the kind of that
47:23
Speaker 2: mossy field and Joel and Tests are in the darkness
47:26
Speaker 2: and Test kind of takes a step forward to the
47:27
Speaker 2: light and Joel stays back Like that kind of looking
47:30
Speaker 2: for hope is a big, big theme in it. And
47:34
Speaker 2: then you get there and the fireflies are this like
47:36
Speaker 2: representative of hope look for the light and you get
47:39
Speaker 2: there and it's just not what you thought it was.
47:43
Speaker 2: And then what happens when you lose that hope? What
47:46
Speaker 2: happens when you stop looking, when you stop looking for
47:48
Speaker 2: the light, when you've given up on hope altogether. And
47:51
Speaker 2: that's why the moth became a big symbol of it,
47:54
Speaker 2: of like kind of always chasing the light and then
47:56
Speaker 2: never ever ever being able to find it. I will
47:59
Speaker 2: say they also gay Fedra and the fireflies more complexity
48:04
Speaker 2: in this and more nuanced because they I feel like
48:08
Speaker 2: in the first one, while you didn't think the fireflies
48:10
Speaker 2: were perfect, they were much more like Federa is bad,
48:13
Speaker 2: fireflies are goudd, whereas in the show they were more
48:16
Speaker 2: quickly like Fedra's bad, but it's not all bad, and
48:19
Speaker 2: fireflies are.
48:20
Speaker 1: Also bad, but not all I mentioned in the last episode.
48:28
Speaker 2: I have heard some complaints around, like I guess it's
48:33
Speaker 2: too quick, it went too quickly. I think that everything
48:38
Speaker 2: they cut out. I get why they cut it out,
48:39
Speaker 2: because in a game you have to quote do something.
48:42
Speaker 2: I just feel like some people were just mad because
48:45
Speaker 2: it didn't have literally everything.
48:48
Speaker 1: From the game in the show.
48:49
Speaker 2: But they are different mediums and there's reasons I feel
48:53
Speaker 2: like that I understood why things were cut out and
48:55
Speaker 2: there are reasons why things were added in. And I
49:00
Speaker 2: did notice when I was looking through this, which didn't
49:01
Speaker 2: surprise me. But the lowest rated episodes on IMDb are
49:04
Speaker 2: the queer ones. Yeah, I do have some stuff when
49:11
Speaker 2: we get to the second season.
49:15
Speaker 1: That's three years now ready, and.
49:20
Speaker 2: That I'm going to talk about because I know some
49:22
Speaker 2: people like there's a lot of controversy, good faith and
49:25
Speaker 2: bad faith around that one.
49:26
Speaker 1: So I just know that I know it, but we
49:29
Speaker 1: will talk about it.
49:43
Speaker 2: I wanted to briefly go over some of my favorite
49:47
Speaker 2: moments very quick. The performances were great. All the performances
49:52
Speaker 2: were great. I loved Pedro Pascal. I loved his anxiety speech.
49:55
Speaker 2: I loved Nico Parker storm read. I loved Belle Ramsey
49:59
Speaker 2: and like when she has that massive breakdown and Ate
50:02
Speaker 2: was amazing. Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett so sweet, Lamar
50:08
Speaker 2: Johnson and Kevon Woodwards, as Henry and Sam very moving,
50:13
Speaker 2: Garriel Luna, Ratina Wesley.
50:15
Speaker 1: The voice actors being on there were super cool.
50:18
Speaker 2: That was very very cool. I loved the sets. I
50:21
Speaker 2: love the attention to detail. I thought a lot of
50:23
Speaker 2: the shots were very beautiful. Basically everybody that made it happen.
50:28
Speaker 2: I love the floaters and the clickers.
50:31
Speaker 1: Sounds like giving a speech.
50:33
Speaker 3: Just won the reward for this show that you involved.
50:37
Speaker 3: I love so much. I want to think, let me
50:42
Speaker 3: have my moment.
50:44
Speaker 2: I love the music, which is also from the game,
50:47
Speaker 2: but I also love the music they picked, like depeche Mode.
50:50
Speaker 1: Very cool.
50:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. I loved like the opening of the Apocalypse, the
50:53
Speaker 2: Bill and Frank thing, the puns, Henry and Sam. I
50:56
Speaker 2: love Maria and Jackson them all, the draft, the final shots,
50:59
Speaker 2: oh my god. But mostly I loved hanging out and
51:02
Speaker 2: sharing this with others. I loved hanging out with you
51:04
Speaker 2: and having this experience.
51:06
Speaker 3: It was beautiful. The joy for me outside of this
51:12
Speaker 3: show was the excitement that you had. You looked like
51:16
Speaker 3: you were opening presents on Christmas morning every day that
51:21
Speaker 3: you would come over getting prepared, and you had to
51:24
Speaker 3: come in before everyone else, And I felt like that
51:27
Speaker 3: was for you to get into the environment of the
51:29
Speaker 3: house so that you could acclimate people coming over. This
51:33
Speaker 3: is that why you did this. That's what I felt
51:35
Speaker 3: like was happening. Your excitement. It literally was like watching
51:40
Speaker 3: a kid in the candy store for the first time.
51:42
Speaker 3: It was delightful. You crying all through every like the episodes,
51:47
Speaker 3: and I think Joey is going to put up a
51:50
Speaker 3: TikTok because I did record you throw out. I did
51:53
Speaker 3: a boomer thing, which we were supposed to have a
51:55
Speaker 3: completely different recording, but then I came back with like
51:58
Speaker 3: recording you because you were jump in the finale tears.
52:04
Speaker 3: It was phenomenal and I looked over and I was like, well, damn,
52:07
Speaker 3: she's ready. I do love every part of that. Yeah,
52:10
Speaker 3: and the show was fantastic. I did love knowing the
52:14
Speaker 3: behind the scenes. Thanks to you and your many playthroughs. Y'all.
52:17
Speaker 3: She's played through this so many times, and she's done
52:21
Speaker 3: it as if she is playing movies for other people,
52:23
Speaker 3: like her family, her friends have come through to watch
52:26
Speaker 3: her play and it's quite hilarious. She's had my partner
52:29
Speaker 3: playing it so she could watch it like a movie
52:32
Speaker 3: as well. Like the overall has been amazing. Oh and
52:36
Speaker 3: the FYI, did you know that Bella Ramsey's scene where
52:40
Speaker 3: she comes out to Pedro Pascal and like this almost
52:42
Speaker 3: happened was shot before her actual kill scene, Like she
52:48
Speaker 3: had not even done that emotional scene to come and
52:50
Speaker 3: react to it. She reacted it before she even did it,
52:52
Speaker 3: like that's that caliber of acting. Holy crap like that.
52:57
Speaker 3: It wasn't in like chronological order for her to piece
53:01
Speaker 3: that together, but it worked so well her flow. We
53:04
Speaker 3: talked about it before, like she's gonna be winning Oscars
53:07
Speaker 3: soon enough on her own, I'm sure. But yes, the
53:10
Speaker 3: joy in you watching like it literally there's a New
53:14
Speaker 3: Girl scene in which they talk about how much they
53:17
Speaker 3: love watching someone else doing something else, and it goes
53:20
Speaker 3: from like, I get as much joy out of this
53:22
Speaker 3: watching you watching this person watching this. It was literally
53:25
Speaker 3: me watching you watching that. That's where I got the joy.
53:29
Speaker 3: The name was just the show, just watching you watching it?
53:32
Speaker 1: Was it all? Well, thank you. I appreciate so much
53:35
Speaker 1: that you shared it with me, offered.
53:38
Speaker 3: Up your home like I would want it no other way.
53:41
Speaker 3: It better be with me from now man.
53:45
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my gosh, it was just so nice. It
53:48
Speaker 2: was so fun. We did marathon it and I recommend it.
53:53
Speaker 3: We did, and we say we, I mean her and
53:56
Speaker 3: I just walked in and out all the time.
53:57
Speaker 2: And then I was supposed to be doing other stuff
53:58
Speaker 2: that I got drowne in so but it's so good.
54:03
Speaker 1: I just close the book now that it's over. I
54:06
Speaker 1: needed like as grefast.
54:08
Speaker 3: But it'll never be over for you.
54:10
Speaker 1: That's true. I'm going to start the second game soon.
54:13
Speaker 1: It's not like Callinger. I know. This was kind of
54:17
Speaker 1: like haphazard, just my thoughts all over the place.
54:20
Speaker 2: When I tell you, I was lying awake at night
54:22
Speaker 2: trying to think of ways to phrase this.
54:25
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to turn it into too much
54:26
Speaker 1: of a thing.
54:28
Speaker 2: But I might come back and like really lay it
54:30
Speaker 2: out because the people are fighting about this in a
54:33
Speaker 2: lot of ways are fun.
54:34
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think we need to do a
54:37
Speaker 3: spoiler Saturday about Last of Us too, and you can
54:40
Speaker 3: go into your theories of what's coming and so that.
54:42
Speaker 3: Oh I can't Christina would have to edit it. Who
54:45
Speaker 3: is watching it? So never mind, damn, how do we
54:47
Speaker 3: do this? We need to find in it. Let's make Ramsey,
54:49
Speaker 3: who has been a part of our viewing, he.
54:53
Speaker 1: Would have some.
54:57
Speaker 3: He's going to cut and paste and make it look
55:00
Speaker 3: really bad just for his own sake.
55:03
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I mean I've just had such a
55:06
Speaker 2: good time sharing this with you two listeners of like
55:09
Speaker 2: people have written in and even if you haven't watched
55:11
Speaker 2: it or played it, and kind of having this thing
55:13
Speaker 2: where I got to really just explode passion about something
55:17
Speaker 2: that I love and I do everything that you love
55:23
Speaker 2: has issues, and I have talked about him in previous episodes,
55:26
Speaker 2: but this is kind of more like I touched on
55:28
Speaker 2: some here, but this was much more a love letter.
55:31
Speaker 2: But just now those exist, I can point you in
55:34
Speaker 2: there in their direction. I have a lot to say
55:39
Speaker 2: about the Last of Us. And if you watched the
55:42
Speaker 2: uh making of on HBO, which again not a sponsor,
55:48
Speaker 2: if you wait till like the very end, they do
55:51
Speaker 2: kind of an end credit scene and then it cuts
55:54
Speaker 2: to Neil Druckman and he's like, that's the end of
55:57
Speaker 2: the story, and then it announces Last of Us Season
56:00
Speaker 2: two coming soon. I also love they put this line
56:02
Speaker 2: in there, like you've come to an end and you
56:04
Speaker 2: don't know what to do next.
56:06
Speaker 1: Yes, I know I've come to an end.
56:08
Speaker 2: I'm playing the second one, yes, but yes, we will
56:13
Speaker 2: see you next time, whenever that will be where I do.
56:16
Speaker 2: I have a lot to say. And if you think
56:18
Speaker 2: you're conflicted after this one, oh my goodness, I cannot wait.
56:24
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're right.
56:25
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if you're ready. But
56:27
Speaker 1: thank you.
56:28
Speaker 3: Yeah for those of you who are like, this was
56:30
Speaker 3: so sad. The second I'm making a face, I'm just
56:36
Speaker 3: making a face twice.
56:37
Speaker 2: So as twice the opportunity for sadness and it makes
56:41
Speaker 2: use a bit so thank you, thank you, thank you
56:45
Speaker 2: to everybody. You can write to us at Stephanie Momsteph
56:49
Speaker 2: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
56:51
Speaker 2: at mamstep podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok, where you
56:55
Speaker 2: can see some of my crying about the last of
56:58
Speaker 2: the videos all the time at stuff Mom Never Told
57:01
Speaker 2: You. You can also find us on YouTube. Thanks as always
57:04
Speaker 2: to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and
57:09
Speaker 2: our contributor Joey Yay. Thank you, Yes, thank you so
57:12
Speaker 2: much for making all this happen, and thanks to you
57:15
Speaker 2: for listening.
57:16
Speaker 1: Steffan Never Told yous direction of iHeartRadio. For more podcast
57:18
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio, you
57:19
Speaker 2: Can check out the Heart Radio Apple podcast, where you
57:21
Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows