Latest / The Body Pod / Fat Loss Nutrition Guidelines for Menopausal Women: Part 1 with Mikki Williden - Food Timing & Tailored Strategies

Transcript

Fat Loss Nutrition Guidelines for Menopausal Women: Part 1 with Mikki Williden - Food Timing & Tailored Strategies · The Body Pod

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, This is Haley and I'm Lara and welcome
0:03
Speaker 1: to the body Pod. Welcome back to the body Pod everyone.
0:13
Speaker 1: Today we have Mickey Willden, who holds a PhD in
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Speaker 1: nutrition and is passionate about helping to translate evidence based
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Speaker 1: science into practice to help people meet their health and
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Speaker 1: wellness goals. I have been wanting to have Mickey on
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Speaker 1: this podcast for over a year, so I'm super stoked
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Speaker 1: that we finally got a time that worked for both
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Speaker 1: of us. She is also the host of the podcast Wikipedia,
0:37
Speaker 1: which dives deep into the topics of nutrition, longevity, fitness,
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Speaker 1: and health, and she is the co host of a
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Speaker 1: weekly endurance sports podcast called Fitter Radio. She is the
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Speaker 1: real deal and you will love this straightforward podcast on
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Speaker 1: all things nutrition for perry and postmenopausal women. Let's get
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Speaker 1: into it all right. Welcome Mickey. You have been on
1:05
Speaker 1: my list for a solid year, so I can't believe
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Speaker 1: it's finally here where I finally get you for this
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Speaker 1: podcast recording.
1:15
Speaker 2: I am just so stoked to be asked to come
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Speaker 2: on the bod Pod and talk to you ladies about
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Speaker 2: all things nutrition and all the things really like. I'm
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Speaker 2: so honored, so thank you. Hailey, thank you, Laura.
1:29
Speaker 1: Yes, well, let me tell you. I feel like I'm like,
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Speaker 1: why does everyone on the other side of the world
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Speaker 1: like this is who I always connect with?
1:38
Speaker 2: I know Tony. I was speaking to Tony last week
1:41
Speaker 2: even and I said, Hailey's having me on the podcast,
1:45
Speaker 2: and He's like, Hailey is amazing. But of course you
1:47
Speaker 2: guys are very well connected. And I feel like I've
1:49
Speaker 2: known Tony forever, but we've been sort of internet friends forever.
1:54
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Well, I don't know what you guys are
1:56
Speaker 1: doing on the other side of the world, but I'm
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Speaker 1: like my triathlon coach years ago was, you know, from Australia,
2:04
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is just who I gravitate towards.
2:08
Speaker 1: But I am so excited because let me tell you
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Speaker 1: what I love most about and I have nine million
2:13
Speaker 1: questions to ask you. But I love the simplicity that
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Speaker 1: you have with nutrition. So you're super into the evidence
2:22
Speaker 1: evidence number one. But I feel like everyone says that
2:26
Speaker 1: nowadays everything is as evidence based, which I do too,
2:30
Speaker 1: but I reach out to people that know the evidence
2:33
Speaker 1: that are way smarter than me with PhDs. But you
2:37
Speaker 1: also aren't afraid to like make your stance, even if
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Speaker 1: it's something that isn't trending in I don't know, on socials,
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Speaker 1: And I love that because I know I'm getting real, honest,
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Speaker 1: truthful information. And before I start, I'm going to say,
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Speaker 1: I listen to your podcast, and I love, love, love,
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Speaker 1: Like you were already up here and then now you
3:00
Speaker 1: were like up here when you called yourself out, you
3:02
Speaker 1: were like, well, somebody called me out and said what
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Speaker 1: is this research? And you were like I had to
3:07
Speaker 1: pull back myself and be like, where am I getting
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Speaker 1: this from? So I love that you're not afraid also
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Speaker 1: to change your mind or as the science comes out,
3:16
Speaker 1: you're like, well, we've always thought this, but guess what,
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Speaker 1: as a scientist, this is the way that this is
3:22
Speaker 1: what it says, So we have to take that into account.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you really do, Halle, like I learned. I
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Speaker 2: feel like, you know, when you come through the university system,
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Speaker 2: as I did in nutrition, you learn one life with
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Speaker 2: my science and my science degree in nutrition plus physical
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Speaker 2: activity and education, and you think you know it all.
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Speaker 2: Actually you're quite arrogant, or at least I think I was,
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Speaker 2: And so I really had my blinkers on to all
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Speaker 2: of the other information that was out there from the
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Speaker 2: likes of people who really understood nutrition much more than
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Speaker 2: I did, just because I had a degree. But it
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Speaker 2: really took me like at least ten years post my
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Speaker 2: study to actually realize that there is more to research
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Speaker 2: than just one paper and one interpretation of a paper
4:12
Speaker 2: or and so I think that I really had to
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Speaker 2: check myself then, and it was a really good lesson
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Speaker 2: for me, I think. And so I'm actually quite distrustful
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Speaker 2: of people who have only who are very black and white,
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Speaker 2: because nutrition, particularly and as you guys know, of course,
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Speaker 2: for s collectivity is not just black and white. It's
4:34
Speaker 2: about the individual in front of you. And I feel
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Speaker 2: like that's a message that we need to keep talking
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Speaker 2: more about, because otherwise you can just leave a lot
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Speaker 2: of people confused about the thing that's best for them.
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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, let's tackle that right away. Because I just
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Speaker 1: had Abby Smith Ryan on I don't know, I'm sure
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Speaker 1: you're familiar with her, yes, And I kind of asked
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Speaker 1: her the same questions and she was like, Heley, people
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Speaker 1: are making this so much more complicated than they need
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Speaker 1: it to be. And you know where I run these
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Speaker 1: nutrition groups with. Again, I don't I don't have the PhD.
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Speaker 1: So I always seek out you know, people that do
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Speaker 1: that can like you read the research. This is your job,
5:18
Speaker 1: read the research and then tell me, you know how
5:20
Speaker 1: we're translating this. So I know enough, But I always
5:25
Speaker 1: seek out these partnerships that that for sure are you
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Speaker 1: know more more, They know more information than me. But
5:34
Speaker 1: if we're looking at this and and women come in
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Speaker 1: and they're like, tell me exactly my macros and exactly
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Speaker 1: how much of this I'm supposed to do, and I'm like,
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Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. Yeah, And if someone is
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Speaker 1: selling you the exact macro fix, you know, with not
5:49
Speaker 1: knowing nothing about you, Like we have all parks, we
5:52
Speaker 1: have guidelines for cardio and nutrition, but you run your
5:56
Speaker 1: own groups. And I love that. From the nutrition side,
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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, you know all there is. I mean,
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Speaker 1: you know, you're the person that I would look to
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Speaker 1: and be like, Mickey knows her stuff. She knows her stuff,
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Speaker 1: and she's going to give me the right information whether
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Speaker 1: I think it or not. So if we're talking about
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Speaker 1: how you and your like how you approach nutrition, and
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Speaker 1: we're talking about the macros, is there a specific macro
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Speaker 1: or for women, that are coming to you. Do those
6:30
Speaker 1: macro budgets in a group setting, maybe not individually. Do
6:35
Speaker 1: you have like where do carbohydrates play a role in
6:38
Speaker 1: compared to protein in compared like comparison with fat.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, great question, Hailey. And you know what, for
6:45
Speaker 2: most of my nutrition sort of career, I haven't really
6:50
Speaker 2: talked to people a lot about macros. And I know
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Speaker 2: macros are very in right now, like not right now,
6:55
Speaker 2: but they're the thing now and people can go and
6:57
Speaker 2: do courses on macros in the weekend to become macro
7:00
Speaker 2: coach and help assist people with that. But I've always
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Speaker 2: thought that, you know, we don't really eat macros. We
7:06
Speaker 2: eat food, and that's a label that sort of simplifies
7:10
Speaker 2: it for people. And it's funny because I even get
7:14
Speaker 2: people who sort of say to me, Oh, tell me
7:17
Speaker 2: what macros that I should be eating, and then I
7:20
Speaker 2: sort of have a conversation with them and realize that
7:23
Speaker 2: they're not willing or they don't understand that. You know,
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Speaker 2: if you know, knowing the macros is one thing, but
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Speaker 2: you know, how do you know how that translates into
7:31
Speaker 2: your real life? You then have to track your food,
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Speaker 2: You have to measure everything you eat. You have to
7:35
Speaker 2: be very calculated. And many of us, particularly with women
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Speaker 2: of our age, like we have running busy careers, in
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Speaker 2: households and children and maintaining relationships and doing all of
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Speaker 2: the other things. Do we really have the time and
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Speaker 2: the energy to now focus and doll down as much
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Speaker 2: as we think we do with regards to our diet,
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Speaker 2: because as you sort of said, it's actually not that's
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Speaker 2: sort of getting really micro, whereas actually it's a big picture.
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Speaker 2: That's how I like to sort of approach things. Having
8:08
Speaker 2: said that, though, protein, as you know, and I know
8:12
Speaker 2: that you agree, it's the thing which most people sort
8:15
Speaker 2: of fall short on. Even people who think they have
8:18
Speaker 2: a high protein diet because they're having a protein smoothie
8:21
Speaker 2: in the morning and chicken at lunch and maybe a
8:24
Speaker 2: steak at dinner, don't they sort of underestimate the amount
8:29
Speaker 2: that they actually need. So I talk to them, so
8:32
Speaker 2: it with regards to the actual amount that I talk
8:36
Speaker 2: to them about, I'm like, look, the IRDI is set
8:39
Speaker 2: at point eight grams per kg body weight, which most
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Speaker 2: protein metabolism experts suggest that's woefully inadequate. And if we
8:48
Speaker 2: doubled that that would be probably a good starting point
8:52
Speaker 2: for most people. Look, and there are of course individual differences,
8:56
Speaker 2: but let's just generally say one point six grams. But
8:59
Speaker 2: then if we think about fat loss, which is what
9:01
Speaker 2: I talk to a lot of women about, we're thinking
9:05
Speaker 2: more at least two grams per kg body weight, if
9:08
Speaker 2: not up to maybe even two point four grams per
9:11
Speaker 2: kg body weight. And you know, when we are talking
9:15
Speaker 2: in these gram amounts, A lot of this information comes
9:17
Speaker 2: from protein's role with initiating muscle protein synthesis. You know,
9:23
Speaker 2: you want that synthetic response to be able to repair
9:26
Speaker 2: and rebuild muscle, But of course protein does so much
9:29
Speaker 2: more than that, but it's hard to measure exactly. I
9:34
Speaker 2: suppose how much protein we need for neurotransmitter production, or
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Speaker 2: to help calm the brain, or to help regulate the appetite,
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Speaker 2: and so many other factors come into play. So it
9:47
Speaker 2: does become a little bit more individual. Like if I've
9:50
Speaker 2: got two people in front of me, and one of
9:52
Speaker 2: them is someone who may and they both want fat loss,
9:56
Speaker 2: and they're both of a similar body size, and I
9:59
Speaker 2: have these sort of targets for them, someone might fare
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Speaker 2: really well on let's say two grams poquety body weight
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Speaker 2: of protein, and they may easily meet that requirement not
10:11
Speaker 2: feel hungry and distracted by that hunger in between meals,
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Speaker 2: and not feel lacking in energy, and not feel anxious
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Speaker 2: and things like that. And they may be great. But
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Speaker 2: the other person, who might appear on the face of
10:26
Speaker 2: it to be very similar, they might have a lot
10:29
Speaker 2: of food noise going on. They may need from a
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Speaker 2: diet perspective, they may need more protein because they need
10:35
Speaker 2: actually need more food to be able to feel fuller
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Speaker 2: for longer. Whereas the other person might be good on
10:42
Speaker 2: just small amounts of food. Someone else might need that
10:45
Speaker 2: real stretch signal from their stomach to help them feel satisfied.
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Speaker 2: And they may also have some anxiety more so than
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Speaker 2: the other person, which may then require just additional amino
10:57
Speaker 2: acids to help calm the brain down and things like that.
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Speaker 2: So so I always have a starting point, but I
11:03
Speaker 2: always need to understand the person in front of me,
11:05
Speaker 2: which does make it a bit more challenging when you're
11:07
Speaker 2: in that group situation, right when you've got four hundred
11:10
Speaker 2: people and you give them this plan and you're like,
11:12
Speaker 2: you know, go with it, But I mean, that's not
11:14
Speaker 2: how I run my programs. I'm sure much like you would.
11:17
Speaker 2: You know, you're in the trenches with them, and you're
11:19
Speaker 2: answering questions and you're tweaking a sort of foundation plan
11:24
Speaker 2: to make it work for them, And I just I
11:26
Speaker 2: always encourage people to just listen to the signs that
11:29
Speaker 2: your body is giving you. You know, like when you
11:32
Speaker 2: eat in the way that that we suggest we you
11:34
Speaker 2: do moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate, and you're eating in
11:40
Speaker 2: a calorie deficit, but you're stabilizing your blood sugar, you
11:44
Speaker 2: can much you can be much more confident that your
11:49
Speaker 2: body is giving you messages about how hungry you are
11:53
Speaker 2: and how you feel. Whereas if you're on a lower
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Speaker 2: protein diet and you may be overshooting the carb hydrate
12:00
Speaker 2: because of that low protein diet and your blood sugars
12:03
Speaker 2: are fluctuating, then a lot of what we feel could
12:06
Speaker 2: be related to those blood sugar fluctuations and they're not
12:09
Speaker 2: true sort of signals from your body. So I always
12:13
Speaker 2: start with protein. I'm very long winded. I'm so sorry
12:17
Speaker 2: you asked about carbohydrate as well. Yes, and I think
12:23
Speaker 2: people can get people can misinterpret what low carbohydrate sort
12:29
Speaker 2: of means. I think That's an important thing to put
12:31
Speaker 2: on the table because I am someone who advocates for
12:34
Speaker 2: a lower carbohydrate approach, particularly as we hid into perimenopause
12:38
Speaker 2: and we become more insulin resistant due to the changing
12:44
Speaker 2: sort of fluctuating hormones and inflammation and the reduction and
12:49
Speaker 2: estrogen across that perimenopause will phase. But it doesn't mean
12:54
Speaker 2: like a keto diet. It doesn't mean that you're eating
12:56
Speaker 2: twenty grams of carbohydrate or less. You know, I sort
12:59
Speaker 2: of if I'm thinking about a meal for someone and
13:02
Speaker 2: I'm putting it together for them, I want maybe equal
13:06
Speaker 2: parts protein and carbohydrate, or maybe a little bit less carbohydrate.
13:10
Speaker 2: But then if you're active, we want to pop some
13:12
Speaker 2: additional carbohydrate in there. So I don't know, I might
13:17
Speaker 2: be anywhere from maybe thirty to forty grams of carbohydrate
13:21
Speaker 2: in a meal. And if someone is in the endurance
13:25
Speaker 2: space and they do require more carbohydrate to help replenish
13:30
Speaker 2: that glycogen post exercise, then we're going to be adding
13:33
Speaker 2: in some additional carbohydrate there, which isn't the same as
13:38
Speaker 2: a kinogenic diet, but it's still a relatively low carbohydrate
13:42
Speaker 2: diet compared to what maybe the general population is eating.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So two questions. One, I get this question all
13:50
Speaker 1: the time, so I'm sure you do too. Too much
13:53
Speaker 1: protein is bad for the kidneys. What does the science
13:58
Speaker 1: say about that?
13:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. And you know, up until maybe even
14:04
Speaker 2: like a month ago, there was a couple of meta
14:07
Speaker 2: analyzes and I believe they may have been published back
14:10
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen fact check. That might not be right,
14:13
Speaker 2: but that showed there was no difference in kidney function
14:16
Speaker 2: between for people with a who had a normal kidney functioning,
14:22
Speaker 2: there was no difference low protein versus high protein ie,
14:27
Speaker 2: high protein intakes did not affect kidney function. Now, they
14:31
Speaker 2: changed the function of the kidney like so there was
14:33
Speaker 2: a little bit more activity across with the markers that
14:38
Speaker 2: they used to assess kidney function. But it wasn't detrimental.
14:41
Speaker 2: It just meant the kidney was It just was working
14:44
Speaker 2: a bit more. But it wasn't harder, It wasn't it
14:46
Speaker 2: wasn't straining it, I guess, is how you might put it.
14:50
Speaker 2: But even most recently, I think in the last month,
14:52
Speaker 2: there's been a study published that has shown that a
14:55
Speaker 2: higher protein diet is beneficial for someone even with a
14:58
Speaker 2: low kidney function and as well. So there's this this
15:03
Speaker 2: is long standing myth that protein negatively impacts the kidney
15:09
Speaker 2: based on data showing that people with stage four chronic
15:13
Speaker 2: kidney disease UH are recommended to have a low protein diet.
15:18
Speaker 2: And that's just that's a category of of I guess
15:22
Speaker 2: a patient which is very different from the general population.
15:25
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Are you a fan of continuous glucose monitor.
15:33
Speaker 2: For some reason? This is also quite controversial, isn't it?
15:35
Speaker 2: But I actually said it is. Yeah.
15:38
Speaker 1: I'm asking you all the controversial questions because I know
15:42
Speaker 1: you'll shoot it straight, and I know you'll shoot it
15:44
Speaker 1: from the evidence and the research of what it says.
15:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, And you know what, Hailey, Like,
15:50
Speaker 2: I understand why people are somewhat opposed to just focusing
15:56
Speaker 2: on one, one particular thing, Like I think they are
15:59
Speaker 2: concerned that if we strap a CGM on someone, then
16:03
Speaker 2: what then they will aim to just have an absolute
16:06
Speaker 2: flatline glucose without thinking at all about other aspects of
16:10
Speaker 2: health or other aspects of diet. But look, I just
16:14
Speaker 2: think that the more that we can understand how food
16:17
Speaker 2: affects our bodies and how food affects our metabolism and
16:21
Speaker 2: how we dispose of that glucose. Just the better you're
16:25
Speaker 2: able to make choices that are going to affect your
16:27
Speaker 2: long term health, because isn't that just what we want?
16:30
Speaker 2: You know, Like, I mean, they're expensive, So there's not
16:33
Speaker 2: something that I would say to everyone, you need a CGM.
16:36
Speaker 2: But if someone comes to me and says, do you
16:38
Speaker 2: think it would be helpful, then I'm going to have
16:40
Speaker 2: that conversation with them that actually, you know, maybe you
16:43
Speaker 2: could get glean some really good insights into how your
16:46
Speaker 2: body reacts to the types of foods that you eat
16:50
Speaker 2: and how you can sort of manage that because I
16:53
Speaker 2: think when when it comes to blood sugar, like we
16:56
Speaker 2: often are measuring or looking at markers that are just
16:59
Speaker 2: too far down the line. You know, we're waiting for
17:02
Speaker 2: things to go wrong in order to fix them, rather
17:04
Speaker 2: than putting into place the preventative measures that can prevent
17:08
Speaker 2: them from going wrong in the first instance.
17:12
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So let's move on to the protein timing.
17:16
Speaker 1: So we have all this new research that has come
17:19
Speaker 1: out about how much protein we can kind of utilize
17:24
Speaker 1: where it used to be like thirty grams and then
17:27
Speaker 1: now it's like up to sixty grams for again, like
17:31
Speaker 1: I really want to hone in on what the evidence
17:34
Speaker 1: would show for Perry postmenopause, because that's who I work with,
17:39
Speaker 1: or if we're just assuming certain things for the Perry
17:43
Speaker 1: postmenopause group and maybe there's not a ton of research
17:47
Speaker 1: in that area. It does protein timing matter? And if so,
17:52
Speaker 1: what does that look like over our meals throughout the day?
17:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question, and I love that you asked. You know,
17:58
Speaker 2: what is it that we assume? What is it that
18:00
Speaker 2: we are just sort of taking almost our best educated guess,
18:05
Speaker 2: because to the best of my knowledge, there is not
18:08
Speaker 2: a body of literature that has looked specifically at women
18:12
Speaker 2: in perimenopause and assessed different amounts of protein at any
18:17
Speaker 2: one male and the effect on muscle protein synthesis, which,
18:21
Speaker 2: as I said earlier, is the main marker which we
18:24
Speaker 2: use to assess that sort of I suppose protein timing aspect,
18:32
Speaker 2: But what we do know is that the older we get,
18:36
Speaker 2: the more protein we need in any one particular time
18:40
Speaker 2: in order to initiate muscle protein synthesis and to get
18:44
Speaker 2: that meet that protein threshold. And I'm pretty sure it's
18:48
Speaker 2: don Layman his research, he's looked at older individuals that
18:52
Speaker 2: might be above sixty years of age and has shown
18:56
Speaker 2: that for them to get a robust signal in the
19:00
Speaker 2: they need to have forty grams of protein in a
19:03
Speaker 2: meal in order to initiate that sort of maximal muscle
19:09
Speaker 2: protein synthetic response. Yet, if you look at someone who
19:13
Speaker 2: might be say twenty five so young and healthy, then
19:17
Speaker 2: they only require maybe twenty five grams of protein in
19:20
Speaker 2: a meal, or even twenty grams of protein in a meal.
19:23
Speaker 2: But there's nothing specifically looking at females, and there's nothing
19:27
Speaker 2: specifically looking at at age group. So what I say
19:31
Speaker 2: to what I say to the woman that I work with,
19:35
Speaker 2: which are largely in that same group that you work with, Hailey,
19:39
Speaker 2: is that we aim for forty grams of protein and
19:42
Speaker 2: a meal, because as you age, the brain sort of
19:46
Speaker 2: almost turns down that little like a little dimmer switch,
19:50
Speaker 2: if you like, and so you just need almost more
19:52
Speaker 2: of everything to get that similar same response. And so
19:56
Speaker 2: we aim for forty grams of protein at brick, and
20:00
Speaker 2: we aim for forty grams of protein in the evening
20:03
Speaker 2: meal because we know that you sort of need two
20:06
Speaker 2: times in the day to be sort of hit that
20:08
Speaker 2: muscle protein synthetic response, and then we aim to collect
20:14
Speaker 2: the rest of our protein across the course of the day,
20:17
Speaker 2: depending on overall protein targets or some of those things
20:21
Speaker 2: we were discussing sort of earlier. Albeit as well, and
20:25
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've heard this before, is that hasn't been
20:27
Speaker 2: a lot of research done at that lunch time period,
20:29
Speaker 2: so you know, so whether or not someone is good
20:33
Speaker 2: on ten grams of protein at lunch or you know,
20:35
Speaker 2: thirty grams of protein at lunch, and when we just
20:37
Speaker 2: don't know that, and then you just got to go
20:40
Speaker 2: back to sort of asking people how they feel. But
20:43
Speaker 2: I am quite I guess dogmatic about the breakfast meal
20:49
Speaker 2: because we're coming out of like a an overnight fast.
20:54
Speaker 2: A lot of us we may have just done some training,
20:56
Speaker 2: faster training as well, you know, and in that catabolic state,
21:01
Speaker 2: so you do need at some point in order to
21:06
Speaker 2: optimize your health, you need to sort of switch that
21:07
Speaker 2: to some more sort of anabolic sort of states. So
21:11
Speaker 2: I'm really big on that protein.
21:13
Speaker 1: Yes, So let's let's let's cover that because the faster training.
21:18
Speaker 1: You had a post on that, and when we look
21:21
Speaker 1: at that like, obviously we don't want to do these
21:24
Speaker 1: long periods of time without food, and we know that
21:27
Speaker 1: from like low energy availability, the research that has come
21:31
Speaker 1: out for low energy availability even like throughout the day.
21:36
Speaker 1: If we look at all of that research, and again
21:39
Speaker 1: we're specifically talking about this population. If a female gets
21:43
Speaker 1: up in the morning and she's like, well, I've got
21:45
Speaker 1: to work out at five and I've got to run,
21:47
Speaker 1: but I don't want like a food, a belly full
21:50
Speaker 1: of food. What is your recommendation, And I'm guessing that's
21:54
Speaker 1: all on the science that is out there. What does
21:57
Speaker 1: that mean for their protein? Can they lit it up
22:01
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit before, a little bit after,
22:02
Speaker 1: or all before or all after, as long as it's
22:06
Speaker 1: within a window. What does that look like? Because there's
22:08
Speaker 1: a lot of talk and a lot of chatter about
22:10
Speaker 1: the window, and you know where that goes with protein specifically?
22:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, great. So the thing with the protein threshold
22:19
Speaker 2: is you do need it in one meal. So you
22:21
Speaker 2: can't get twenty grands before training twenty grams after training
22:24
Speaker 2: because you're not hitting that threshold to an shet muscle
22:28
Speaker 2: protein synthesis. So if someone is having something before training,
22:31
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that they can then subtract that from
22:35
Speaker 2: their next meal like that. That's in addition to And look, Hayley,
22:39
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about you, but you know, I've worked
22:42
Speaker 2: with thousands of women over my time, and women are
22:46
Speaker 2: so different. Some woman can get up, go for a
22:49
Speaker 2: forty five minute maybe even a harder run, or do
22:52
Speaker 2: a harder session and it's no big deal to them.
22:54
Speaker 2: You know, Hormone is fine, sleep is fine, energy is fine,
22:58
Speaker 2: hunger is fine, body composition is fine. There's nothing actually off.
23:03
Speaker 2: But some women if they get up and train fasted,
23:07
Speaker 2: then that just upsets there. They get hormone disruptions, that
23:12
Speaker 2: upsets their sleeper, upsets their energy, their cravings later on
23:15
Speaker 2: in the day. So there is no there's not a
23:18
Speaker 2: big body of research that has actually looked at fasted
23:22
Speaker 2: versus fed training in terms of its long term impact.
23:26
Speaker 2: We know from a from a performance perspective, feed will
23:31
Speaker 2: always trump fasted training. We know that, but that's not
23:34
Speaker 2: always the goal of someone getting up going for a
23:36
Speaker 2: run at five am in the morning. Sometimes it's just
23:38
Speaker 2: to get exercise. You know, we're not all sort of
23:40
Speaker 2: have that athletic mindset. We also know that there's no
23:44
Speaker 2: difference in terms of fat loss whether you train fed
23:47
Speaker 2: or you train fasted. There is a difference in substrate utilization,
23:54
Speaker 2: so you will burn more fatty acids when you train
23:58
Speaker 2: in a fasted ste date compared to if you have
24:02
Speaker 2: like a carbohydrate before training, but that won't affect your
24:07
Speaker 2: overall fat loss if calories are accounted for. So these
24:11
Speaker 2: are some of the things we do know, but I
24:15
Speaker 2: don't know that it's correct to say that no woman
24:17
Speaker 2: should train fasted like there is no I'm not sure
24:20
Speaker 2: where that what markers we're looking at to determine that
24:25
Speaker 2: this is dangerous for all women. When I'm working with
24:30
Speaker 2: women in my fat loss groups who are in a
24:33
Speaker 2: calorie deficit, I do say to them that to get
24:37
Speaker 2: up and train and have something before they train, because
24:41
Speaker 2: when you are in a calorie deficit, those those sort
24:44
Speaker 2: of guardrails do change a little bit compared to when
24:47
Speaker 2: you're talking to a woman who is just aiming to
24:51
Speaker 2: maintain her already healthy body composition, because you are running
24:56
Speaker 2: on less calories, so it is more of a stress
24:58
Speaker 2: on your body. So you do need it, and you
25:02
Speaker 2: want to get the most from that training session, and
25:06
Speaker 2: you want to be able to recover well from that
25:08
Speaker 2: training session so you can do it again. And when
25:10
Speaker 2: you've got less calories to play with, all of those
25:13
Speaker 2: things become a little bit more challenging. So I do
25:17
Speaker 2: recommend that in a fat loss phase, if you're training
25:20
Speaker 2: early in the morning, we try to get something in
25:23
Speaker 2: and that something might be It might just be a
25:27
Speaker 2: serve of protein in water or unsweetened almond milk, you know,
25:31
Speaker 2: or it might be like a banana or whatever. They
25:34
Speaker 2: can tolerate. That then sort of makes them they've got
25:39
Speaker 2: a little bit of fuel on board, but it's not
25:41
Speaker 2: going to be so much that they're sort of choking
25:44
Speaker 2: down a breakfast. But then afterwards we still want that
25:48
Speaker 2: sort of maximum amount of protein or sorry, minimum amount
25:51
Speaker 2: of protein that I was talking about, that sort of
25:53
Speaker 2: forty grams of protein.
25:55
Speaker 1: Okay, so that we want the threshold to be the
26:00
Speaker 1: two and a half grams of loocine is really the
26:03
Speaker 1: protein synthesis like that that threshold we want to have
26:06
Speaker 1: the two and a half grams of loosene in there.
26:08
Speaker 1: But if it's before and then say like they wake
26:11
Speaker 1: up at five and then they work out at six,
26:13
Speaker 1: then they might not need it, you know, right after
26:16
Speaker 1: if they got forty grams before. But that window if
26:20
Speaker 1: somebody decides to wake up and says, has a forty
26:22
Speaker 1: minute run, and it's all in context. Is it a
26:26
Speaker 1: super hard, you know run where you're trying to beat
26:29
Speaker 1: something or is it more of a chill run, then
26:33
Speaker 1: you want to eat. If you didn't have anything, then
26:35
Speaker 1: maybe you want to eat fairly close after that, so
26:39
Speaker 1: that we're kind of in that pery workout phase of
26:43
Speaker 1: fueling the body, not necessarily like no one's getting results
26:46
Speaker 1: if they don't do it this way or the exact way.
26:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. I if it is a super hard run,
26:54
Speaker 2: then I Am going to encourage someone to have something
26:56
Speaker 2: before they go out, you know. And a lot of
26:59
Speaker 2: that come down to down to habit, because you know,
27:02
Speaker 2: we get in the habit of doing things a certain way,
27:04
Speaker 2: and our body anticipates food at certain times and that
27:07
Speaker 2: is a trainable thing. So you know, if you never
27:11
Speaker 2: eat before giving out training and your training starts suffering,
27:15
Speaker 2: then I'm and then I'm going to say, hey, let's
27:17
Speaker 2: try and put something in there, and you'll take a
27:19
Speaker 2: little bit of adjustment and you can start small. But
27:22
Speaker 2: it's literally just to help you sort of get through
27:24
Speaker 2: your training period. However, you know, if you think about physiology,
27:29
Speaker 2: like the other time to think about pre training fueling
27:32
Speaker 2: is actually the evening before, like the dinner, because that's
27:37
Speaker 2: how you you know, you read, you're going to restock
27:39
Speaker 2: a little bit of that glycogen into your muscles at
27:41
Speaker 2: that point, and then overnight it's your liver a glycogen
27:44
Speaker 2: that depletes. It's not your muscle glycogen that depletes. So
27:48
Speaker 2: which is the liver is like a little holding like
27:50
Speaker 2: a little holding bay for for glucose and carbohydrate, and
27:56
Speaker 2: that depletes overnight. But it only takes like a little
28:01
Speaker 2: bit of maybe a little bit of carbohydrate or even
28:04
Speaker 2: just some sprinting like that physiological sort of sprinting exercise
28:10
Speaker 2: sort of will then allow some of that musc look
28:13
Speaker 2: like a gin, to travel to the liver to then
28:16
Speaker 2: be sort of pushed out into the blood streams. So
28:19
Speaker 2: if you can't eat before training, you really can't aim
28:23
Speaker 2: to have some have it like a decent dinner with
28:25
Speaker 2: some carbohydrate in it the night before, and then get
28:29
Speaker 2: in your nutrition post training within you know, fifteen twenty
28:33
Speaker 2: minutes if possible. And I'm always going to say, you know,
28:37
Speaker 2: I typically say a protein shake and a banana, And
28:40
Speaker 2: maybe it's because you always sort of go down like
28:43
Speaker 2: what I what would I usually have? Like a lot
28:45
Speaker 2: of my recomendations come from the things that I like, Yeah,
28:48
Speaker 2: that's the thing, which would I would normally like. But yeah,
28:53
Speaker 2: and the older you get, I think you need a
28:56
Speaker 2: little bit more loosing than two and a half grams. Actually,
28:59
Speaker 2: like I think it might be. I'm pretty sure it's
29:01
Speaker 2: closer to three to three and a half, which I
29:04
Speaker 2: know seems like like why would I even mention net
29:07
Speaker 2: but it because it's it's harder to get it in
29:11
Speaker 2: normal food.
29:12
Speaker 1: Well, then that would be the recommendation more for forty
29:15
Speaker 1: grams versus maybe thirty grams.
29:17
Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, I think so.
29:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good to know too.
29:23
Speaker 3: I know, I feel like this is a confusing topic.
29:26
Speaker 3: Helene and I've talked about it before, what to eat before,
29:29
Speaker 3: what to eat after to get your maximum benefit, but
29:33
Speaker 3: on not too. I feel like this might not have
29:35
Speaker 3: to do with people that are focused with athletics, but
29:42
Speaker 3: I still feel like a lot of women are waiting
29:44
Speaker 3: doing the internet and fasting and waiting to eat, and
29:48
Speaker 3: I hear all the time. You know, I don't have
29:50
Speaker 3: my first mill until noon or one o'clock. What is
29:53
Speaker 3: your thoughts on that?
29:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, I do my best to encourage people
30:01
Speaker 2: away from that practice if they're training in the morning.
30:04
Speaker 2: And look, I will say that intermittent fasting is a
30:07
Speaker 2: really powerful tool for people with severe insulin resistance and
30:12
Speaker 2: really you know, and really poor metabolic health, and so
30:15
Speaker 2: a lot of what you read on social media is
30:18
Speaker 2: targeted towards that population. But of course those messages are everywhere.
30:23
Speaker 2: They hit everyone, and so you're picking them up and
30:26
Speaker 2: you're thinking, maybe this is what I sort of should do,
30:29
Speaker 2: And I know the mentality around that, Laura could be, well,
30:34
Speaker 2: you know, if I get up and I train, I'm
30:36
Speaker 2: burning calories and then I'm not replacing those calories. So
30:39
Speaker 2: I'm going to this will just help my calorie balance
30:42
Speaker 2: later in the day because I'm going to be hungry
30:45
Speaker 2: later in the day anyway, so I may as well
30:47
Speaker 2: save them. And the other thing which often comes up
30:51
Speaker 2: is well, I'm just not that hungry in the morning,
30:53
Speaker 2: and coffee suppresses your appetite. Being busy suppresses your appetite,
30:58
Speaker 2: and most people that work with they have. They're either
31:02
Speaker 2: busy at home or they're busy at work, and it's
31:05
Speaker 2: really easy to put off that meal and they think
31:09
Speaker 2: they're getting the benefit from it. But you know, Hayley
31:12
Speaker 2: talked about low energy availability through the day, and that's
31:15
Speaker 2: a big thing. Even if you don't have low energy availability,
31:19
Speaker 2: you can still disrupt hormones. And there's research to show
31:23
Speaker 2: that acute bone turnover markers are compromised if you go
31:29
Speaker 2: for hours without food post training, even if you are
31:32
Speaker 2: meeting your calorie targets for the day. So you know,
31:35
Speaker 2: it's so hard to hold onto muscle and bone as
31:39
Speaker 2: we age, and particularly through perimenopause and menopause, that's accelerated
31:44
Speaker 2: aging essentially, So we need to do all we can
31:47
Speaker 2: to hold onto muscle and bone. And the practice of
31:50
Speaker 2: getting up and training and then fasting across the morning
31:53
Speaker 2: is so detrimental to those two things that I just
31:57
Speaker 2: try to encourage people against it. Because the other thing
32:00
Speaker 2: which people don't sort of realize from a fatoss perspective
32:04
Speaker 2: is that it's really easy to overshoot your calories in
32:07
Speaker 2: your smaller eating window if you do that, Because even
32:11
Speaker 2: if you have an meal, you can still feel unsatisfied,
32:16
Speaker 2: and then you are constantly grazing in the kitchen or
32:19
Speaker 2: you're really like hanging out for that afterwork wine that
32:25
Speaker 2: then you open a bag of chips, but it's fine
32:27
Speaker 2: because you fastered in the morning. So it's all about
32:29
Speaker 2: you know, you know, So we just make these little
32:32
Speaker 2: justifications in our head, but it does us in and
32:37
Speaker 2: in most people, Laura, and I'm not sure what your
32:40
Speaker 2: experience is, but this doesn't work long term for most people.
32:43
Speaker 2: So most people I see are already doing this and
32:46
Speaker 2: it's not working for them, but they haven't quite made
32:48
Speaker 2: that connection or connected the dots themselves exactly.
32:53
Speaker 3: You actually set up my next question perfectly. In the
32:56
Speaker 3: last three weeks, I have talked to three different women
33:00
Speaker 3: who were diagnosed with our stereoporocess and they're forty so young,
33:06
Speaker 3: and a couple of them are starting the carnivore diet.
33:11
Speaker 3: But as I walked away from those conversations, I thought,
33:15
Speaker 3: what is the best thing to do even to not
33:20
Speaker 3: get to that point? Also, but you know, what can
33:24
Speaker 3: we do? But even if you don't have our stereo
33:26
Speaker 3: process and we're forty, what can we do to prevent
33:29
Speaker 3: that from happening.
33:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think the number one thing, which is
33:34
Speaker 2: which I talk a lot about as well. Even though
33:37
Speaker 2: my main my main area of education is nutrition, I
33:42
Speaker 2: use the fact that I have a phys degree is
33:44
Speaker 2: almost like, well, I can still talk about this as well.
33:47
Speaker 2: But I have to say I think strength training is
33:50
Speaker 2: one of the best things. And most of the experts
33:52
Speaker 2: would say if you'd never have to choose between protein
33:56
Speaker 2: and strength training. But strength training is the thing, right
34:00
Speaker 2: It's that mechanical load of the muscle and the bone,
34:04
Speaker 2: and what occurs when you actually do that progressive overload
34:10
Speaker 2: type work, which isn't necessarily heading three by five in
34:14
Speaker 2: the gym. You know, you don't have to go from
34:17
Speaker 2: the cart to deadlifting, you know your body weight or
34:20
Speaker 2: anything like that, but that working to failure however that looks.
34:24
Speaker 2: So I think strength training is probably the thing, even
34:27
Speaker 2: though of course we're here to talk nutrition. So protein
34:30
Speaker 2: is the next thing to my mind, and I know
34:34
Speaker 2: that you agree, and we already talked about the amounts
34:36
Speaker 2: of protein that I normally sort of operate in. And
34:44
Speaker 2: then outside of that, we've got creatine and we know
34:48
Speaker 2: that currently the research supports, particularly for older women, but
34:54
Speaker 2: there's no reason why you wouldn't think about this for
34:56
Speaker 2: women in their younger years. Like if you're doing strength
34:58
Speaker 2: training and your protein and take is good, the creating
35:01
Speaker 2: may potentially help with bone as well. The research is
35:04
Speaker 2: really emerging there. Vitamin D is essential and down here
35:11
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, the sun doesn't have enough strength in
35:16
Speaker 2: those uv B rays to help us synthesize vitomin D
35:19
Speaker 2: in winter despite how sunny it is, so most people
35:23
Speaker 2: in New Zealand would need to supplement during winter. It's
35:26
Speaker 2: not a very good public health message. No one talks
35:29
Speaker 2: about this, but you know that's actually that's definitely something
35:34
Speaker 2: which I talk to a lot of people about. And
35:37
Speaker 2: then you know, there are these other trace minerals that
35:40
Speaker 2: don't even really get featured when we think about bone health.
35:43
Speaker 2: Things like boron and silica are two trace minerals which
35:47
Speaker 2: are super important for bone. I discussed on a podcast
35:52
Speaker 2: with someone called doctor Charles Price, and he did a
35:56
Speaker 2: lot of investigation into osteoporosis when his wife got osteoporosis
36:00
Speaker 2: back in the eighties, and he came up with some
36:02
Speaker 2: supplements and it wasn't he wasn't just trying to sell
36:05
Speaker 2: his supplements. He's moved on from that thing, but his
36:08
Speaker 2: research showed that, you know, in our sort of modern diet,
36:11
Speaker 2: we don't get a lot of these sort of trace
36:13
Speaker 2: minerals that are really important for bone. Either collagen is
36:18
Speaker 2: something else. I'm really like big on and I'm sure
36:22
Speaker 2: that you guys are familiar with research to show how.
36:26
Speaker 2: And I know it's case study research, and it's pre
36:28
Speaker 2: clinical research as well, so there's not large human clinical trials.
36:32
Speaker 2: But there's a suggestion that accelerated sort of healing of
36:37
Speaker 2: tendons and ligaments and I want to say bone, but
36:42
Speaker 2: I might be wrong about that, so so fact check
36:44
Speaker 2: me on that one. But that accelerated healing can occur
36:48
Speaker 2: when you sort of put collagen peptides in with a
36:51
Speaker 2: little bit of vitamin C. And you know, there is
36:55
Speaker 2: research from doctor Mike Ornsby's lab of women in midline
37:00
Speaker 2: life taking ten grams of collagen having a reduction in
37:05
Speaker 2: joint pain and knee pain. And these are and this
37:07
Speaker 2: isn't an athletic sort of population, you know, woman like us.
37:10
Speaker 2: So I'm going to also suggest that people take collagen
37:14
Speaker 2: as well.
37:16
Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed part one of this two part episode
37:20
Speaker 1: with Mickey Willden. We will be back on Thursday with
37:24
Speaker 1: part two. Join us then, thanks for listening.
37:28
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a
37:31
Speaker 3: five star review and sharing the body Pod with your friends.
37:36
Speaker 1: Until next time,