Latest / Reborn w/ Antonio Boutros / Mental Health in Faith Communities: Insights with Daniel Whitehead

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Mental Health in Faith Communities: Insights with Daniel Whitehead · Reborn w/ Antonio Boutros

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Reborn Podcast with Tony Rutros, where we dive deep into topics that inspire, educate, and empower.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have the privilege of speaking with Daniel Whitehead, the CEO of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel is a leader whose work is transforming the way faith communities approach mental health, and he brings a wealth of experience, insight, and passion to this critical topic.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: For those who may not be familiar, Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries is an international charity with a profound mission to equip churches and faith leaders to better understand and support mental health needs within their communities.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: The resources like the Sanctuary Course, blogs, and podcasts have helped countless churches engage in meaningful conversations about mental health.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sanctuary also leads initiatives like Healing and Color, which explores the intersection of race, faith, and mental health through the power of art.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel's journey to this work is inspiring in and of itself.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: After leading a church in England, he faced emotional burnout, which led him to pursue deeper studies in theology and mental health.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, as the leader of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries, he's helping churches and leaders worldwide embrace vulnerability, foster meaningful relationships, and reduce the stigma around mental health, especially in underrepresented communities like BIPOC populations.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Today we'll be discussing Daniel's personal journey, Sanctuary's impact, and practical ways faith communities can be better can better serve those facing mental health challenges.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you're a church leader, mental health advocate, or someone navigating your own journey, this episode is for you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel, welcome to the show.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thanks, Tony.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be with you.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for that introduction.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's not intimidating at all with that knowledge.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'll live up to I probably missed a few things even.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So now, Daniel, you've you, man, you have had and I've first of all I've had the privilege of getting to know you a bit.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think the last almost a year now, we've known each other.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you you've had an incredible journey um from church leadership in England to founding sanctuary mental health ministries.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Could you, like I said, I'm I probably miss a little bit.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Could you start by sharing a bit about your background and what led you to this work?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so and and and one small correction.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't found Sanctuary technically, but I founded the new version of Sanctuary.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So Sanctuary existed when I took it on, but I kind of reworked the model, and that's okay, that's that's why I often get confused for a founder.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: That that that's not the first time that's happened.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, my I mean, my journey from um leading a church.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are lots of moments in my life, Tony, when I pause and just go, I I have no idea how I got here.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: But the overwhelming feeling I have when I feel that way is one of deep gratitude.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Deep gratitude for uh the work that I get to do.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: I because I really I really love this.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, for me, I I led a church in a small town.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um it was uh a charismatic church, a kind of independent church, um full of lots of wonderful people who really loved God and uh did the best they could to love each other.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: But but one thing that I can say in hindsight, looking back, was that it it was ill-equipped to know how to hold the mental health subject.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there were some people in the church who were like counselors, worked in Christian counseling, so there was kind of some stuff going on, but this was not a subject that was held in a way that people could access it readily.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was more of a niche subject for for those people.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's where I came from, and and in my own journey of leading a church at a young age through quite traumatic circumstances, I uh reached a place where I was just emotionally numb and knew I had to move on, and that was very painful because I obviously cared about the people I worked with, but but you know, my wife and I both decided we needed a change, and so uh moved to Canada, took a year out to study, do some um theological study at Regent College, grad school of theology, and um what started as a one-year hiatus has become the last 10 years.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: I did a double master's in theology, and I took on this little non-profit uh called Sanctuary.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a remarkable story because the the non-profit I took on was it was me and and um initially me and one other staff member.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and it's grown significantly from that from that space because it was a local ministry rooted in Vancouver.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now we've moved on to this international scale.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now now you're so you it was you and one other employee.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're how many employees?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're equivalent of about 15 or 16 full-time.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a mix of full-time and part-time, but it's probably about 20 20 people that work for Sanctuary now.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you've literally 10x of the organization in your time being there, yeah, yeah, yeah, and more than 10x.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Providing opportunities.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's that's awesome.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you said something that really piqued my curiosity, which is you said you had traumatic circumstances in your time leading that church.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Can you dive a little bit deep into that?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is that I don't know, is that something you're comfortable talking about?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, very very much so.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I was um I was the youth pastor, I was a part-time youth pastor in the church, and the senior pastor who was a like probably my closest friend at the time, um, yeah, he he uh I I got married on um April the 8th, 2006.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And a month later, so I was a youth pastor, a month later on May the 8th, my best friend mentor, a senior pastor, was diagnosed with cancer.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And a month after that, on June the 8th, he died.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I'd been married by the time you know we'd processed that, and the church then asked me to lead it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: The elders approached me and said we'd like you to lead the church.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was 23 when they asked me and been married like five months and processing the loss of uh someone I cared about deeply.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I think that when I think about traumatic circumstances, I think about that, and I think about that church had had a number of historically sad, not not through their fault, it was just lots of sad endings to how leaders had left the church.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, so yeah, I came into an environment that I think was in all honesty suffering the effects of trauma, and but but no way of understanding that or talking, you know, even the language or idea to frame that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I came into an environment that I think was grieving and and traumatized, and I myself uh the same, but it took it takes a few years to work that out sometimes.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it sounds like you had almost a similar experience both with both with that church and now with with mental health sanctuaries in the way that it came in.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: You came you you went in unexpectedly.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sanctuary mental health is now a international nonprofit, and in the church you were leading went from you know being youth pastor, being someone who's in his early 20s, just got married, and I imagine it sounded like you were leading a church that had you know an older population that like absolutely, yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know personally, like that can that can lead to who am I to to lead these people who are two, three times my age.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And is that has that been any no, nope, that's a real thing.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Imposter syndrome is a real thing, and and I don't think it's something um people talk about it like it's a really bad thing to, you know, like imposter embarrass to say they have imposter syndrome.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think there's a healthy sense in which all of us should have imposter syndrome, you know.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're you know, we we we're children of God, and like, yeah, but we don't behave like it all the time, do we?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a sense in which God is always calling us to be more than we are, and we are more than we are because of him, because of his spirit and his grace that is revealed in our lives every day as we stumble our way through life, and God just keeps graciously using us.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, my my story vocationally, I think both with the church and with sanctuary has been a story of um punching above punching above my weight.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why am I here?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they asking me?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Who whose um whose idea was this?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, these are these are the kinds of feelings I've I've felt in both my former vocation and in and in leaving Sanctuary.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about almost being an underdog punching above your weight?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: How how has that journey been versus going into an already established like everything's in place?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I like it.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it suits me, and I think it suits the demographic of people we serve.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the that's the thing.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, a few years ago I I was kind of lamenting one day, I guess to the Lord, but just you know, Lord, this work is really hard.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's no you know, there's no there's never enough money, and there's you're always trying to hustle, it's just a hustle.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and I kind of felt the Lord, I felt like the prompting was, well, yeah, but the the people you serve are marginalized, the people you serve are not heard.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you feel marginalized and not heard, then you you know how those people feel, and that's yeah, and that's also kind of how Jesus has felt in his ministry.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that there is a pastoral sense of like, well, yes, Daniel, you're in the communion of the saints.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is what it is.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I and I also think uh scarcity breeds innovation.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we all dream of not having scarcity, we all dream of having like being able to just action our dream plan.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um I think uh if I I mean I don't mean to be controversial or mean to point the finger, but you know, some organizations have too much, they get lazy.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what are they actually doing?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, I I heard someone the other day who works in the not-for-profit space in helping philanthropists give their money away, and they said, you know, our big thing is a lot of these big non-profits, they just spend money on marketing.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: All they're doing is like promote, but they're not really building their roots.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are they actually offering?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and Sanctuary probably suffers from the reverse.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: We focus very much on the depth of our work, we don't focus enough on how we sell our work.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we're a bit of a bit of a best kept secret.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I quite I quite like that space, the underdog.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it suits me.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like that can be a almost better way, in a sense, makes you more authentic rather than you are living in you know a penthouse and have millions of dollars coming in and have never experienced mental health yourself versus being almost like in the trenches.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know, you have your team, but it's still like it's a grind, and it's something that I'm not just talking about, I'm doing it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that's that's I was talking to uh a buddy the other day, and we were talking about I'm like the difference for me between a leader and a boss is a leader is they're front of the pack, and so they're they're doing the thing, and then they're leading the people either either with them or behind them.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a boss is is they're here, they're in the back, and they're going and shouting orders to everyone else, but they're not doing anything.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it is and it's I feel like it's the same thing a lot of times in business, it's like in any organization, a church, a nonprofit, a government organization, any organization.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: If the leader is not doing what they're going to tell their people to do or hasn't been there, or the clients they serve, then it's it just seems inauthentic.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it can get to a point where yeah, they are they're they're they're almost resented, really, because they're demands that you're I think that's true.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's true, and I think I think particularly for the younger generations, there um there is a uh people are weary of inauthenticity.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I it's not like I'm gonna you you can say nice things about me.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sitting here saying, Oh, I'm so authentic.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I like to think I'm authentic, um, but but you know, we can only be self-aware so much, you know.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I'm self-aware, but um, but I think no, I think you're right.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely think you're right.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, to to sit there as an expert in a space that you where you don't have any skin in the game, I don't think it really works anymore.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just I don't think people are gonna listen.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um unless unless there is a sense in which this person understands or has some skin in the game.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you said a key thing is we it reminds me of the verse actually.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: He who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you're complimenting yourself, then it's almost pride, right?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Which which we're taught, and we know Jesus taught us not to have pride.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think necessarily that pride goes away, but I think you can place your pride not from being a nonprofit leader or business leader or whatever you are in this world to entirely and truly being in Christ.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, have have so having come from you know this this place and even still almost being in this place where you're you're punching up, you're trying to grow, you're trying to have this big impact, and you and you've had already uh international impact.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: What habits or routines do you consider non-negotiable for maintaining balance in your life?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm still working that one out.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: But some of the things, I mean, I can tell you in an ideological way, the the things that uh when my life permits it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um like I have to fight to have space in my life.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's actually a big part of the vocation of a leader, I think.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that does mean you know being bounded about what you say yes to, what you say no to.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but more than that, it's about space for space's sake.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's about space because rest is important, and rest is also a place where I mean it's just a kind of biological fact that rest is a place where creativity occurs.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So fighting to have a posture of rest as much as you can, as someone who isn't very good at resting, I'm very good at doing.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm not proud of that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: But uh rest is something I think I find myself having to fight for, having to uh prioritize in the work that I do.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's a it's a very, very important practice for leaders to to have space, space to think, space to be, space to rest, space to um so yeah, and I think busyness is the enemy of that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a that would be a non-negotiable.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I also think um well it's non-negotiable for me that I'm passionate about what I'm doing, that I that I can stand up and make other people feel passionate about it because of the passion I carry.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think I couldn't lead an organization I didn't feel passionate about, it's just how I'm why it's so that's a non-negotiable as well.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: How would you say leaders can be intentional in getting rest?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like in the leadership space we're often taught you have to even you have to sacrifice sleep, like you have to sleep four hours, six hours, and you have to work you know 18 hours a day, sacrifice your family time, sacrifice your mental health, sacrifice everything, or else you're gonna fall behind the competition and your your business or your organization is gonna go to zero overnight.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure business people would say that, and business leaders would, because if if what you're pursuing is free market capital as your end goal, if all you're pursuing is the accumulation of stuff, then yeah, that makes sense.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: But you there's a cost, and the costs um I'm not talking about a financial cost, there's a cost to yourself.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it really depends which economy you're playing to.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I totally get it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: A business person who wants to just make as much money as possible, that's great.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that and not to say that they have to be a a uh you know polar opposites, but um what happens when you die?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what what what difference does it make?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're on your deathbed, are you regretting not having made another ten dollars or a hundred dollars or million dollars, or are you thinking about the relationships that you leave behind?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think creating space is about investing in relationships, and relationships fall under the category of God, your relationship to God, your relationship to other people, particularly people that you love, I would suggest, relationship to yourself, and I would also say relationship to creation, to the good creation God has made, because what I've learned is I need I need to be outdoors every day.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just need it like it resets me.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me I work better, I think better, I am better for being outdoors.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Why is that?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's just because I'm a creature based in God's creation, and that's how God's made me.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's often a relationship people, some people will talk about, but sometimes they talk about it in like a spooky way.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just talking about it in a very practical way, like being outside, moving my body, getting fresh air, that that relationship to the good creation God has made is really probably another non-negotiable for me.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's important that I do that.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um and really all of this, this this call to have um space is about remembering who we are and remembering what we're here for because who we are are relational beings made in the image of a relationship, Father, Son, and Spirit.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: We're made for relationships, you're not made to produce stuff, that's not your purpose.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: You can produce stuff, you can do that in a godly way, but your purpose is entirely tied up in relationships, so and that's because God is a relationship.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's um it's critical that we remember that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's our purpose, that's why we're here.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And um, our purpose isn't to produce stuff, and and that should be reflected in how we live and how we do business and how we lead and how we do non-profit.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Reminds me of the verse Matthew 22 and 37 and 40, which I think is one of the most popular verses in the Bible, which is I the greatest two commandments.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: First, love to God, love, love your love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and second, love your neighbor as yourself.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think oftentimes people miss the order of things, which is first love.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: By loving God, you will understand what love truly looks like, and by understanding what love truly looks like, you will have a capacity to love yourself, and then by loving yourself, you will then have the capacity to love your neighbor.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any certain because I think there's so many different things, but is there any certain stigma around mental health in in Christian communities that you desperately just want to see eradicated?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And how can listeners contribute to this change?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I think there is.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot, I think there's a very particular and special sort of stigma that often exists in faith communities.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um one of those might be well it can actually work in a number of ways, but in one church it could be like, well, really, this is just a spiritual matter.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the the antidote is to pray more and read your Bible more, or to pray properly and read your Bible authentically.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you do those two things properly, then you'll be like me, you'll be fine.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: There's that that kind of advice, that very unhelpful advice gets given to people.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, what that does is that conflicts mental health and turns it into a purely spiritual issue.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Conversely, some churches would say, Oh, well, those those churches are wrong.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Really, it's a biomedical issue.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: What we need to do is send you off to doctors and mental health professionals, and they can, you know, um fix you, as it were.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And once you're fixed, then you can be part of community and function like the rest of us in a normal way.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, these are these are the kinds of these are the kinds of frameworks people have.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going, no, no, that's wrong as well.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not to say that there isn't a spiritual component, it's not to say that there isn't a biomedical component.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: There is both.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: But there are actually many components that make up a mental health journey.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's biological, yes, it's spiritual, yes, but it's also psychological because you have a psychology, you have an organ called your brain, and your brain works a certain way, and your brain can get out of Depending on what's happened to you and what happens to this organ called the brain.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there's also a social reality.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Our reality is also defined by our relationships.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you surround, if you take a child and you only speak hurtful words to them, you tell them they're useless from the day they're born, what kind of person do you think they'll grow up to be?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So there are social realities.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a child and you tell them every day that they're loved, that you're proud of them, that they can do all things, that they they're fearfully and wonderfully made.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you tell a child that, how are they going to grow up to be?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: We know this stuff.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So the point is a human being is never one of those things in isolation.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: A human being is always biological, always psychological, always social, always spiritual.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's always those four things all of the time.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And all four of those aspects of who we are impacts the other three.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: So when one is diminished, the others are diminished.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: When one is strengthened, the others are strengthened.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because God has made us to be holistic.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the specific form of stigma that that kind of addresses is that in many churches we have a very siloed way of thinking about these things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's innate.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's just in the tradition of certain churches that, well, you're spiritual when you're at church, you're physical when you're at the gym, you're psychological when you're thinking in the way that Western medicine and Western society says you should think, and you're social when you're with your family or with people who think just like you.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think those things are true.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot to unpack.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say, with all that said, what would you say Sanctuary does differently to truly cause transformation in the lives of people going through mental health challenges versus what typically, you know, as we were just talking about, we typically see where it's almost one extreme or the other with either therapy or it's just read your Bible and pray.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is the difference there?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think the gift that Sanctuary gives communities that use our resources, which cost nothing, it's a total kingdom thing.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: We give them to churches.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the gift that it gives them is the ability to have a conversation that is safe, that's that's informed in this holistic way.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the fruit of that is you have a shared framework, a theologically underpinned framework for understanding mental health.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you have the framework, you have the language, you have the actual tools to know how to speak about it.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because many, many well-in-meaning people use unhelpful language, and as one of our ambassadors, Reverend Professor John Swinton says, with our language, we create realities.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So many people create unhelpful realities by trying to be helpful, but they don't even know what language to use.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the course gives you the framework, it gives you the language, and most of all gives you the permission and validation.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: So for someone in the midst of crisis whose story may never have fully been revealed or fully been opened up in community, which is exactly where it should be opened up.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the psalms of lament, many of them were um songs of ascent.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: They were sung in community.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: So they they may sing that that these these psalms, the song book of the Bible, 40% of which are lament.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: So the song book of the Bible, the worship book of the Bible, 40% of those worship songs are lamenting about life.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And many of them were sung in community, but sing about an individual's experience.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, God, why are you far from me?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sung in community.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a lot, there's a big clue there for us that the church needs spaces to talk about these things.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: People need spaces to be heard, and um, the sanctuary course is a really great way of creating a safe place for people to do that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've recently gotten called into part of a church plan.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And part of what I'm doing is working on both the marketing, so helping them impact more people, but I'm also helping them develop programs um specifically around leadership and redemptive entrepreneurship with with my church.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're called New Heights, uh, led by Pastor Ken Johnson, who was the Indianapolis Colts chaplain for I think 32 years and an international evangelist.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: How can churches like New Heights in any church really how can we better equip ourselves to address the mental health needs, um, especially when it comes to BIPOC um communities?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mean, aside from me saying use the sanctuary course, use the sanctuary youth series, use sanctuary resources, at its core, I think what churches need to do is to find a way to listen deeply to people's stories, to give people permission to live into their authentic story, to listen deeply, to suspend any preconceived ideas of what human life should look like.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: And instead, listen to what a person's life is, and to and to commit to helping those people to find Jesus in the midst of their stories, many of which are difficult stories.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think this mental health is not uh like an optional extra or a bolt-on, and it's not a nice thing to do, it's actually it is the gospel, it is it's a gospel thing, and and the church of the future that flourishes, particularly with the younger generations, will be a church that listens and it will be a church that talks about things like mental health because the younger generations have a very different uh parameter or way of uh seeing the world.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is one of the subjects that the young people are telling us this is important to us, our emotional lives, our mental health.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're struggling with one in three young people are currently experiencing a mental health crisis.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um the book uh by Dr.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Gene Twenge, Generations.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um I could quote you stats from it, but I I kind of don't want to jar your audience.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: But you can go read that book, look at the research that is happening with young people's mental health.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is terrifying.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think this is a gospel issue.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think um it's a Jesus issue.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the bottom line is uh the body of Christ, Christ's followers, uh, has depression, it has bipolar disorder, it has psychosis.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, we should talk about it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is what people are experiencing, and and and Jesus should be involved in that, not just not just in a snapping a band-aid kind of way, not just in a reducing symptoms like a medical model.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is about addressing the latent power in the in the community of God, the hands and feet of Christ, the latent power of the love of God expressed through a community.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: You can actually change people's lives, and you can help people find flourishing if you give them loving communities who will listen and walk with them.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You said one out of three people, young people, are going through a mental health crisis.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just for clarification, how do you define young?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is that under 30, under 40?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean that that's talking about teens.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, um, like youth.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would be youth.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the there's all kinds of research is out there.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: That the mental health commission of Canada released some research, and it's still startling to me.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's just unbelievable.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: It says that by the age of 40, 50 percent of people will have had a diagnosed mental illness.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just stop and think about that.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's uh that's remarkable.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's where things are heading.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we're in a crisis, you know.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: The World Health Organization says we're on the cusp of an epidemic of loneliness.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're lonely, you know.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: We've never had more inadverted commerce friends on Facebook.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I've got 5,000 Facebook friends.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but we've never been more lonely.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: So again, our culture is embarking on an experiment that is not working, and all the research shows us this, it's not working.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what is the antidote?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: The antidote is the church, the antidote is community of God's love, who should be a prophetic statement, you know, implicitly opposed to this disembodied, uh, screen-based way of being.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like the church is meant to be the antidote to that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, no, living in community and being seen in community, being held in community, having people hold space for you when you can't hold it for yourself.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's the goal of the church.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that, if you could equip the church to do that in society, you would make a massive dent in that global epidemic of loneliness.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think you would eradicate it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: You would make a massive dent in the mental health crisis if people knew that they were seen and loved as they were, and that people would walk with them through their journeys to see them flourish once more, which always happens through relationship.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't just happen with medication and therapy.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Those things are good and we need them, yeah, but it always happens in relationship.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: People need relationships.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wholeheartedly agree with my with my own journey.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean I grew up in and out of intent intensive therapy, was in inpatient therapy for a week, and I don't think it really, I don't think I truly recovered until I got in healthy community uh community, which was in the form of for me like men's groups, a couple of different Christian like praxis, um, Christian like business groups, and really like I I so I actually recently started as an online community and hoping to do some in-person retreats as well, but it's it's based off the the verse, Proverbs 27 and 17.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And from I did that because I literally grew up in a school in high school that is bigger than some colleges, 7,000 people in the high school.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was an outcast, I had no friends, no community, no like no relationships, and so I've been there on the outside looking in, trying to find that community, and just feeling so lost and hopeless, and seemingly like all I can see is darkness.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in a couple years, I've been able to build a great community of I I say you know, mentors, peers, and mentees of people that are behind me that I'm you know trying to get trying basically people who I see my past self in, so I'm trying to help uh mentors who I'm learning from, and peers who you know kind of the same season.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And my thing also is like you can learn from any of them.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have a mentor who's I think in his 60s, 70s, and has I mean, has had a lot of success, um, both as a man of God, like great marriage and all that, but also in in business.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: But he's if you approach a mentorship as I have so much to give, you're already coming at it wrong.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And instead, you need to come at it as like, yes, I have a lot to give, but I also have a lot to learn.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the the coming generations, I think we're seeing a lot more young people who are interested in doing their own thing, going outside of the societal norms, not necessarily going to college, starting a freelance business, starting some sort of venture.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's one piece of advice you wish you had received when you were starting or when you not found it, but when you start when you started uh your role with Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, yeah, for me personally, because of the way I've been shaped by my circumstances and culture and society, for me personally, the message I need to hear was um like Daniel, you can achieve a lot if you if you're your authentic self, which is a very counter-cultural narrative.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I think generally, like historically, that would be the last thing you want to do is be yourself.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: You you want to be anyone but yourself, you need to be like this archetype, yeah, and then you'll be successful.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you'll be successful, you probably will be successful, but um just for me, I meet people all the time.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if if you it goes back to your earlier point, and it's true, if I sense inauthenticity in a person, I mean I'll be polite, but I'm not gonna invest in that relationship.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not, I'm not gonna give time and energy to that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: If it's someone that I feel like can help Sanctuary's mission, I'm gonna go, well, okay, I'll I'll keep trying, but I'm not really gonna invest.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: But if there's a human being in front of you where you feel like, hey, this person is authentic, they're they're not perfect.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I would much for me.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: I always say the greatest quality I would look for in hiring a person, and the times when I've I've got it most wrong is when I haven't listened to this, is someone who knows themselves, like self-self-awareness is by far the most valuable commodity, and I think it will increasingly be that um in the society of the future, because so much of the um you know skill-based work is gonna be automated, it's just not gonna, you know.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I listen, I love math and I'm pretty good at mental math, but if you're really getting upset over not learning math, I wouldn't be too worried.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like honestly, you're gonna you're gonna be fine.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: If grammar's not your thing, you're gonna be fine, trust me.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, chat GTP can help you a lot with your grammar when you write emails.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the but the the people of the future who are gonna be shaping the future, I think are gonna be people who know how to connect with other people.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that becomes a precious commodity.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And to connect authentically with other people, you have to know who you are.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: You have to know what you're good at, what you're not good at, what you're strong at, what you're not strong at.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when you've got a person who thinks they're brilliant at something and they're just not, oh, I'm brilliant with people, and they're not, it's hard.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, this is hard.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is like you don't know.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: So being aware of who you are is is probably the thing I would and so I would say to myself and to any young leader, like just get to know who you are and be okay with it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like you you have flaws, but you have strengths, so work out your strengths and get people to help you with your flaws and be honest about them.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'd say.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: How would you balance being in a leader position and a mentor position?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: How would you balance the concept of investing in someone who might not yet know themselves, but they're really trying?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: But oftentimes it almost feels like you are pouring out continuously and they're really just not taking the required action, but they have that desire.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you balance that with like okay?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can't I can't keep investing in you if you're not gonna make sure change because we can we can talk for hours and hours and hours, but if nothing changes, nothing changes.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you just have to discern that one.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on the strength of the relationship you have with the person, but I think you know, um, if there's trust and there's love, then I think you can say difficult things when there's there's trust and there's love in that relationship.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if there's not trust and love, then I go, well, how what is the relationship really going to achieve?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's not so maybe I'm maybe I would get there sooner than other people, but I think I'd go, uh I'm not sure this is gonna work because I think this is this is how we need to operate.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I would always be looking for mutuality, reciprocity.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would not, you know, uh all of the people that I talk to in that way, um that's how I enter into the relationship.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, yes, you have loads I want to learn from, and I really want to learn, but not to the detriment I don't sit there thinking that I've got nothing to teach you.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, you can you can learn from me, you can learn from anyone, you can learn something from anyone.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, something everyone in the world can teach you something, even if it's had a thread and needle more effectively, like, but but I think having that posture is really important, it means you stay curious.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think whatever mentoring relationship you're in, as long as you're curious as to why why is this person not able to get hold of this?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this person not able to see this?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this person saying they want this, but they don't?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think you'll ask the right questions and you'll discern discern the right way.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make difficult decisions when you have someone like that in your organization?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to navigating the intersection of faith, I want to keep investing in this person, they're a good person, they have a good heart, but I'm also running an organization organization that needs to needs needs needs them to perform.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've got to get stuff done.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and that's a very good question.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think um I think it's important that making difficult decisions are meant to be difficult, otherwise they wouldn't be difficult decisions.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you're making difficult decisions easily, then you're probably not doing it right.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever decision you've got to make, let's say that's losing a person or somebody, I don't know, I'm thinking of a really bad scenario.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like that should be difficult.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: If it ever becomes easy to lose a person, like to fire someone, then I think you're probably not you're probably not living the way you're meant to live.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Those things are meant to be hard.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: So first of all, you embrace the difficulty of that.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Second of all, yeah, the balance between getting stuff done and investing in a person who you care about is really hard.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: But again, you have to kind of discern.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's a the maybe there is a black and white algorithm on it, but I think it's more something you discern.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I think the way you break up or the way you is also really important because you you want to humanize the person as much as possible.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to you know the way of the world would be they're just a commodity, the commodities are working for you, get rid of them, they're irrelevant to you.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, that's exactly the way business works, but we're not called to operate that way.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is this may be your brother or sister in Christ, so you know, this is someone who Jesus died for, someone of immense value doesn't mean you can't disagree, doesn't mean you can't argue, doesn't mean you can't say strong words to each other, but it does mean that you will do everything within your power as required to ensure that if you bump into that person again, you can greet each other in a way that is kind and civil and compassionate.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can think of that, actually, think of a really good story that happened to me many years ago when I was leading a church.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually a member of the church that there was this falling out, and I think it was necessary, but it was very painful.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: There was someone I cared about deeply, but um, they left the church, they were not happy, there's a lot of hurt, and I didn't see this person for over a year, and then one night uh I had a dream about this person.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never dreamt about them before, but I had this vivid dream, and I woke up in the morning and I thought, I feel like I should contact them.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like maybe it's time.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why did I dream about this person?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: I went down, sat at my desk in the church, I was about to write an email to this person, and then I thought, no, no, no, I'll send a text.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: I went back to my text messages and I'm like, I can't send a text or an email, I need to go talk to them or write them a letter.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought, okay, I'm just gonna pause, I'm gonna think about it today, and at the end of the day, I'm gonna make a decision.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'll either knock on their door, write a letter, send an email, I'll work it out.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I need to think about the best way to reach out to them because last time I saw them, it wasn't good.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Within five minutes, this is no word of a lie.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Within five minutes, my phone made a ping sound and I had a text message, and I looked on the phone, and it was a message from this person, and it said, Hey Dan, I had a dream about you last night, and I and I felt like God was telling me I should reach out to you, and to me, it was mind-blowing.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: I realized how passionate God is about reconciliation, how passionate God is about the state of my heart.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: I believe like God did that for me and for the other person, for the state of our hearts.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: It was like there was a wound that needed fixing.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you do well to remember that in whatever the difficult decisions we have to make, that do your best to humanize the person, do your best to make it so that next time you see them in the street, you can look them in the eye and greet them as a brother or sister.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, make it to the point where it's I love you as a person, but I can't have you here.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's and then and this is not like a god thing, but it's you know, Tupac.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: One said, like, I still want to see you eat, just not at my table, right?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that because you're no longer in my life, I want to see you fail.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to flourish.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I and I actually think in those situations, it isn't it's a painful move, but it's a move to help the other people flourish.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because if they're not flourishing in your environment, they need to flourish somewhere else.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, and you can only do what you can do, right?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: If they that some people don't want to hear that, and they're just like, I don't care, I don't like you.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, that's fine.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: I fully respect that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: But for your own sake, to do everything you can, I think is important.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we only have a couple more minutes.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have a few wrap up questions for you.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: First off, is if you could leave listeners with just three lessons or truths, what would they be?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um personally, I would say I believe with all of my being that you are of more value and worth than you are ever capable of understanding.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think I found that to be true, and I still wrestle with it, but I believe it in my bones.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um secondly, conversely, I would say it doesn't all hang on you and you are expendable.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like one day you're gonna die, and you better be okay with that because it will happen.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that beautiful juxtaposition of your immense value and also like and God doesn't need you, right?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: So your value purely comes from the and then thirdly, I would say, um I would say uh have a go, just have a go.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't it's just the way I see the world, but I I I see uh limitless possibilities in this world for incredible things to happen, and uh maybe that's easy for me to say with my experience.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: It hasn't always been easy for me to say, but uh I do think uh if you pursue what you're passionate about and you do it with uh with the best intentions, then uh great things great great things can happen.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Not easy things, not hashtag blessed things, not things you necessarily want to put on social media, um, but deeply good things that can can lead your life to have more meaning than you ever imagined.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: So have a go.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have a go.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: That would be my third bit of advice.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we could have a whole nother episode just on those three those three things.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: More value plus worth than you're capable of understanding, and yet at the same time, know that God does not need you and that you are expendable.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like that seems like two polar opposites, but it's yeah, so so true and accurate.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then pursue passion.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's something that a lot of people want to do, but then they get caught up in things in the world, their lifestyle, and how they want to appear to their their friends, a social community, like oh, I'm just you know, white-colored job, although I would love to just start, you know, a small business, a small coffee shop, whatever it is.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have and listen, I I live in Vancouver, Canada.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of that stuff happening because there's so much wealth in this city, um, a lot of poverty as well.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the what I've encountered, and I realized it, I said to my wife, I'd when I first moved here, I'd meet with a bunch of people, bunch of men in their 40s, doing great, like killing it at work, making loads of money, living big, expensive houses, but none of them are happy, none of them are doing things that make them happy.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so sad.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, this is your life.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: You've like it feels like a life wasted.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: I found this so many times.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll also tell you one other person I know who was a very senior hedge fund manager for one of the biggest banks in the world, a very, very senior role.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because life hasn't worked out so good.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and let me tell you, that that role was not good for his mental health for sure.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but one thing he said to me, you know, and he was he's like doing deals with people who have multi-billionaires.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Can you just call them up?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: And he's so he's in all that, flies first class, stays in five-star hotels.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's his life.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it was his life.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember talking to him one time and he wasn't happy, he was just struggling.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, What's your dream?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he looked at me and said, I want to be a school teacher.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: If I could do anything, if I could do it again, I would teach maths.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh math, I would teach math at school.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it was mind-blowing.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: I this was years ago that he said this to me, and I'm like, you are literally the pinnacle of success in the eyes of the world.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: You are you are what most people would aspire to be like, and what you're telling me is you're deeply unhappy.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Your life in many ways is a mess, and what you really want to do is teach math.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you go and teach math?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you go and do that?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can do that, and he's like, I can't, I'm trapped, I'm stuck, I'm in this thing, I can't get out.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: So sad.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: So life wasted.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Living for God, although it might be more humbling, will ultimately lead you to a more purposeful and fulfilling life.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it doesn't come with the riches of the world or the fame or the success or the glamour of five-star five-star hotels and restaurants and first-class flights.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a phenomenal conversation, and I really appreciate you coming on.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um one quick question if you have the time.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're towards the end.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have one time?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is the one resource, belief, or practice you could not live without in your personal and your professional life?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, uh, it's a weird one, but it just comes to mind.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think at my core, my belief is that most people, most people are doing the best they can.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um even if people are underperforming or behaving badly or doing most of them are doing the best they can.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is almost a naively hopeful posture, but I think it's one that serves me well.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mind being a fool for Christ.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mind being foolish in some way, being being and I so I think that's a posture that uh has just helped me to to be who I am.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think most people are doing the best they can with what they've got, and so I guess that creates empathy, but I think live live more empathetically, living empathetically is is important, yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's so many circumstances that we can never understand.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we we don't even know.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can live with somebody your entire life, your your spouse, and not fully understand them.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, how much is there about our partners, our employees, our clients that we don't understand that we don't know?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so just having that empathy because you never know what someone's going through.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: How can how can listeners connect with you and get involved with the work of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, you can go on our website, sanctuary mental health.org, or you can look us up on Instagram or Facebook.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we have a bunch of resources you can use for free.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: You can access them on our website.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, resources for youth, resources for congregations.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all of our resources are aimed at Christian worldview, but they can be used in a range of settings and circumstances.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have a Christian-facing business, you can use our resources.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say, yeah, get online, check out our stuff.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think my email address is on our website, which is dangerous, I know, but you can reach out to me.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm accessible.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect, perfect, perfect.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for coming on, Daniel.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: This was amazing, and I'm really, really hopeful that this episode will truly make a transformation in the audience's lives.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and if if if you're an audience listening to this, thank you so much for watching, or thank you so much for listening.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if you want to connect further, feel free to check out sanctuary mental health.org.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna put that in the show notes, so just below below the the video, the the podcast, um, in the description.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then also feel free to join out.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have a free re uh free faith driven entrepreneur community on a platform called School.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the the link for that is school.comslash reborn pack.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, hope to see you inside and have a blessed week.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Tony.