Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #23-Larry Carlat

Transcript

Episode #23-Larry Carlat · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good day, folks.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: We're back for another episode on this podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I were just talking about allergy season and how in Kentucky uh the allergies are the worst in the nation in the Ohio Valley.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh anytime I say that around the country, people are like, oh no, no, mine are the worst.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mine are.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Don did say that uh where he's at in South Carolina on the island, uh, by the lighthouse.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I'm calling that out in any sort of uh crass way, uh, that the allergies are also bad down there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I am, yes.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll go we'll go there, we'll arm wrestle across a video uh on that one.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I was near Lighthouse.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's a good jealousy.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm excited today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we are joined uh by a guest, uh Larry Carlett.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm just gonna read this bio on Larry.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Larry Carlette is a writer and editor whose work has appeared in the New York Times magazine, Esquire, GQ, Rolling Stone, Psychology Today, Men's Journal, Men's Health, and Slam, and I think also a partridge and a pear tree.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's a lot.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's also a grief coach, lives in upstate New York.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh he wrote a book uh that he's going to be talking about uh today, A Space in the Heart, a survival guide for grieving parents.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, Larry, Don, and I would like to welcome you uh to this podcast.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here with you guys.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here as our guest.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I just want to add that uh I read the book A Space in the Heart, and I've read a lot of books since uh Josh has died.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, some I connect with and some I don't.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just love this book.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um it it can I connected with it on all levels, and um I just feel like everyone who any parent, I should say, uh who reads it uh will also connect with it in one way or another.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: The love that uh Larry had for his son Robbie just shows comes through with every word.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so thank you for writing it.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that commercial.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I will point out that um we have all different types of guests on here.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: We have all different relationships.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've had child loss, we've had spouse loss, we've had parent loss, we've had loss of a job, um, we've had just loss in general and grief.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I will say all three of us uh have lost a child, uh different circumstances, different ages.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, our socioeconomic and bio is different uh for each of us, uh, but we do share that commonality um of loss.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we win.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, Larry, we kind of want to turn it over to you.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about yourself, tell us about your journey and uh the book.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna start at the end, which is where I usually start.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And my book actually is in three parts, and part one is the end, and the end is uh losing your child, and it's the end of your life as you've known it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So my son Rob shot himself about seven years ago.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: He was 28 years old, he suffered from bipolar disorder, he was an alcoholic, he was depressed, he had conflicted feelings about being adopted.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what I wrote in his obit, it's a little funny, but it's true.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that is he was a pain in the ass who was deeply loved by many.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he wreaked havoc with us from the day he was born to the day he was to the day he died, a very difficult relationship.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I've never loved anyone the way I loved Rob, mainly because Rob needed it more than anyone I ever met, and I needed to give it to him.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the short version.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I went into uh grief group immediately after Rob died.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: It lasted for two years and about a year in someone in the grief group said, I wish that there was a manual or a guide for how to do this, because I I would reel I would read that in a second.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a writer and the light bulb went off, and I knew that I was gonna have to write that guide for her and for all of us, actually.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then a couple of years later, I wound up.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me go back.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I the way I grieved for Rob, I'm a writer.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrote about him every day for a year.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It did not take a day off.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I blogged on uh, yeah, I kind of blogged.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote every day, and I took that material and then shaped it into a book a couple of years later.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but writing was the way I stayed connected to him, and it was also a way for me to document my feelings in real time because I knew later on, being an old guy, I was gonna forget exactly how I felt.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I and it was just uh a very intuitive thing, and I'm very happy that I did it because I think the thing in my book that people resonate with the most uh is not just how much I love Ra, but I think you can feel my emotions throughout the book, and some of it is very difficult and raw, and some of it is really funny.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but it's it's all there.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when people read it, they see themselves in the book.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I've heard that from many readers that uh I'm able to sort of use language to re to reveal how they feel.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm glad I was able to do that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Larry, I uh I also am a writer.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you and I don't know each other.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can relate with everything you said.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I wrote a um self-published book back in 2009, and um I've written hundreds of blogs and I've contributed to numerous magazine articles, not not touting myself over you.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying I could totally understand the documenting, I think, of the journey along the way.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people don't understand how therapeutic it is for us uh as writers and how we work through things on the keyboard.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I wanted to read uh something.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was it's in the Amazon description of your book, uh A Space in the Heart.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have not read the book, like Don has.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I look forward to reading it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it says A Space in the Heart is about the anguish that the death of a child brings and how to survive and thrive in its aftermath.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's part memoir, part self-help, zero bullshit, and 100% straight from the heart.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's about our never-ending love for our lost children and how that love ultimately helps us transform and heal.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, it's a roadmap for a road no one would ever choose to travel.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Grief isn't something that you overcome, but you can learn to live with it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: It will take time, it will take work, it will take pain, it will take strength, it will take an open heart, it will take everything you have, it will take things that you didn't know you had.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it goes, uh, goes on.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot more in the bio there or descriptor of the book.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I would just say that, man, that just sums up, I think, Don and I's podcast.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we talk about Thrive all the time on here.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about growth.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about uh how you're handed this poo sandwich in one hand, but yet you're you're handed this uh aspect of possibility of wisdom and growth and transformation the other.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: And which one do you want to focus on?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Which one do you want to give the most attention to?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, I I'm uh I'm already taken in just by reading those words and and listening to you.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and if you don't mind, I'd like to point out that uh the two of you are writers and and good writers.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't, I I wouldn't consider myself a good writer.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have written uh and some some articles, uh, but um, you know I I love reading, um good writing, and uh I wish that I had documented um, like you said, Larry, uh those days, because I do forget um how things you know were going then and how how far I've come.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's a real important piece.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I I know I people kept telling me early on how far I've come, but you know, you're you're still raw.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So with what you did, um I'd love to hear more about how that helped you um through that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's just so interesting that what you just said, because I think we do undergo a transformation, and we can talk about that in a second, but I always say during the transformation, we have no idea that we're transforming because we're in it.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone around us can see the transformation, except we can't see it.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say we're the last to know, we are the last to know that we've transformed.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but that's also sort of my whole thesis about uh grief in general, that the worst thing in the world has happened to the three of us.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And my contention is that it makes us the best version of ourself.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree in the beginning, and and I bring it up all the time.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had a grief group with guys last night, all Bree Fathers, and some of them are just a couple of months out, some of them a couple of years out.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I was talking about sort of the transformation, and not one of them saw themselves in it, which because they're still in it.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's it's just an incredible thing.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I do feel like we become better versions of ourselves.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and also along with that, I'll just add one thing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because I say I say it to the guys that I that I do this grief group with the worst thing in the world has happened to us, and afterwards you meet the most amazing people you've ever met in your life.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that is also something that comes as this wonderful benefit from the worst thing that's happened.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I have a question for both of you, actually.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um as you said that, Larry, I was thinking about does everyone um become a better version of themselves?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that is inherent in um in grief and in you know losing a child?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because I I feel like it's we have to make certain choices in order to have that happen.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you guys have any thoughts around that?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if I can answer that, I think that's uh probably the most important thing that I think gets lost in the grief sauce all the time.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I am I am like the pie piper of in your grief, at some point you hit a place where you have to make decisions, you have to decide and choose how to go forward or not go forward.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And no one tells you that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it and people talk about it, and in the beginning, you can't even take that in.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's the most important thing in our grief is that at some point we have to choose.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can choose not to feel the pain.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can choose to stop self-inflicted wounds, we can choose to find joy again in our life.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a choice.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning, we're so devastated and in the dark, and there's no light at all.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't know that there's a choice.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the the most that's the I think the biggest turning point in any sort of healing.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: We have to choose.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have to choose to do the work, we have to choose to carry it, we have to choose not to hurt ourselves.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's so important.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I couldn't agree more.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's interesting to me because um I I'm looking at your description of the book, and I just keep going through there's three different really short sentences.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It will take time, it will take work, and it will take pain.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then you follow it up with it will take strength, it will take an open heart, it will take everything you have, it will take things that you didn't know you had.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think that the precursor of that to kind of the metamorphosis aspect of the transformation of a butterfly, which we'd use if you watch YouTube on the intro to this podcast and on the uh graphics.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um the i I go back to Robbie.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: You said he was an alcoholic.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my son also struggled with alcoholism.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that um, to overcome some of these things in life, what's the first thing you have to do?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's the acceptance of that you are an alcoholic.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's the acknowledgement that I have an issue and a problem.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Most people don't look at grief that way.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they don't look at it as something that they have to overcome, that they have to work through.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be the hardest thing that they'll overcome.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: What we've done is we've put we've thrown some nice good pop psychology out there for people.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we've said, hey, time heals all wounds.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, man, you want to talk about bullshit.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's about the top of the meter uh when it comes to that, because you can't just depend on time heals all wounds.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I was listening to somebody the other day and they were saying, that's that's wrong, time doesn't heal all wounds.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I said, well, here's what I would say to that.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's an essence of that that is accurate in the fact that if you put the work in, if you acknowledge that you have a problem, it's not, I wouldn't say a problem, but if you acknowledge that this is something that I need help with, I need intestinal fortitude, I have to step up and choose, like you said, the choice.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: That takes time.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it will only come through time that that happens.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: But time in and of itself, just by letting it go, doesn't.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, Don has a long way of answering your question.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, I've seen a lot of people that are 10, 15, 20 years that are stuck, have never chosen to put the work in, have ignored it, have heaped it up with addictions such as workaholicism.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: I can never pronounce that word, workaholicism.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just being a workaholic, uh a drug addict, alcoholic, um, denial just in and of itself, uh, apathy, whatever.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things we, Donna and I talk about a lot is putting the work in, and we get a lot of questions on that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what does that mean?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we've done a lot of podcasts on that, but it's it's really the choice, and it's really a matter of moving on.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I tell people I'm a better man and a worse man uh in many ways, but my my better aspects far outweigh the worse, and I'm working at perfecting those better.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Don, I just wanted to get back to your question about like, does every does everyone become a better version of themselves?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and in my experience, I I can't, I wouldn't say everyone, but a large portion of the population of bereaved parents, I think they do.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some common threads, and I think one of the ones everyone immediately talks about is how we become more empathetic than we've ever been in our life, which totally sort of uh softens any edge we may have had.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think that's sort of the primary one.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I, you know, I also do grief work and work with uh primarily uh fathers, uh suicide loss.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I have two uh groups that I facilitate.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um when I tell them that I feel like I've become a better version of myself, they look at me like I have two heads.
• 17:14
  unknown: You know.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, what are you talking about?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I share with them, you know, the journey that I took, uh, but it's so hard for them early in their grief to to get that and to understand that, even though, like you said earlier, they are in the they're transforming, they just don't see it, they don't feel it, they don't understand what's going on.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think another thing in terms of choices and uh in terms of transformation.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I tried to do in the book, and Don, I think we talked about this a little bit when I talked with you before.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think in the beginning, it's so important to offer hope.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that I really was very cognizant of trying to offer hope throughout the book.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning, in part one, the end, there's no fucking hope.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's dark.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you and even people, I can say it from now to doomsday, nothing is gonna sink in because they can't allow a ray of light to you know to to enter the room.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I like also I bang that drum loud.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they can't hear it, I feel I'm planting a seed.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and eventually they go, Oh, you know what?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Nine months ago when you said that, Lar, I thought you were an idiot, but now I sort of get it.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's so important.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's so important.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: It it's almost like there's cataracts on their eyes.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: They they can't see through it until they have that surgery and the cataracts come off.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think uh I also lead a couple um groups.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one is for uh military loss uh through TAPS, a care group, and another is just a men's group, your dad forever.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, in each of those, I try to point out when you were talking about how they cannot see the transformation, it's like that frog in boiling water a lot of times.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're just simmering in there.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I try to point out each time, hey, you can't see this, but I have known you for 18 months, and I could tell you that over the last 18 months, you have progressed tremendously.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And they look at me kind of like you say, Don, you know, almost, you know, like you got two heads or deer in the headlights.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what are you talking about?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, you can't see it.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I can see it.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you weren't able to even talk in our first session.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now you ramble on and on.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's progress uh in communication.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, something else I want to point out is um like social media is just horrible in so many ways.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: In so many ways, it's really good.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about how it's used.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we just had the Easter holiday on Sunday, and it's kind of like the first day of school uh for parents.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're always posting their pictures of you know their kids' first day at school with their backpack on.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's the same way with Easter pictures.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: You got to get dressed up in the pastel colors and everything, and post your pictures.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I posted pictures of my family, but I also posted uh the picture of my funeral with or my son's funeral uh in January of 2021.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Hey, this is uh not trying to bring anybody down.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't a touchy-feely post, but I I want people to understand the transformation that has happened.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Worst day of my life, this is where I'm at right now.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, Larry, uh, to your point of me and you writing and Don not being a perfect person like us, not being an author, just joking.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Don, that's uh pictures are a huge way of documenting progress along the way.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can literally see a transformation in somebody's face um as they kind of grow in their journey.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I I want to throw that out to people.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to be an author.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just really keep a track of the transformation journey uh through your Google photos and through pictures.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of times I don't remember how far I've come.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then I go back to year one and year two, and I could just see the distraught lack of vision, lack of direction in my eyes, uh, honestly.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, also along the same lines is um I think people uh not only see the transformation, it it it comes back to choice again.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for instance, I think we make a choice to to feel joy again.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning, that's not on the table at all.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yet at some point, you know, there is a return of joy if you're open to it and if that's something that you gravitate to.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Something that you choose.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: You have to choose to be happy again.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: But that's another thing that, you know, I will lay the groundwork for that in the beginning, and guys look at me like, what the hell is he talking about?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then after a year or two, they've experienced joy again, and it and it's a choice.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think it goes with hope, you know.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really, really glad you brought that up because uh a mentor of mine, uh, a person that I feel is very responsible for my healing journey, uh, Kim Rocco.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: She worked for TAPS uh in the suicide postvention prevention uh program.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um she was actually the the vice president of of that program.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um she died uh two years ago in January, and when she died, she said to her children, two surviving boy uh men, young men, um, find joy.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that message has reverberated throughout the people that have um that studied under Kim that you know that she taught so many of us so much about grief and and the complications that come with suicide loss.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh finding joy uh has been, you know, since then uh it's something that that I'm grateful that she left that message, you know, that that we all can find it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a choice.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to look for it, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: We need to seek it out.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: If we're if we're looking for the bad stuff in the world, we can find that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's real easy.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if if we're looking for the good stuff, we can find that just as easily.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to be on the hunt for it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dig into that just a little bit, Don.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I I always said at the beginning of my grief journey, it was almost like the Peter Pan story of losing the marbles.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've lost my joy.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to find my joy.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're looking under every bush, under every tree.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is it under my pillow?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where did I lose my joy along the way?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And um joy comes in different packages for different people.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I find a lot of joy in spending time with my wife.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I don't find a lot of joy in spending time with my wife while I'm unloading 150 bags of mulch like I did last night.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we almost have a semi-domestic out in the yard because we're both our backs are hurting and everything else.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I tried to find space uh to have joy.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like tomorrow, for example, she's on spring break, she's a teacher.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm whisking her away to Cincinnati.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't want to do any overnights, but we're just gonna drive a couple hours north.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna go have lunch at the Hofbraw house in northern Kentucky.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna go to the museum uh up there and probably find a couple antique stores uh because we like antiquing together and looking for different pottery type things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: So finding your joy looks different for everybody, but I think it's the search and it's the seeking out.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell people that your method of that can change and it can morph.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get so caught up in one thing, you know, like one hobby might have worked for you, and then all of a sudden you put it down, you're like, I don't have any interest in that again.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you don't, you know, if you grew up playing a guitar and you haven't played it for 30 years, there's nothing that says you've got to pick that back up, whatever it might be.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think joy is um, it's not as simple as a situational awareness, it's not as simple as um just a religious affiliation, it's not as simple as uh just you know being uh still.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's there's a lot of different um searches for that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I find I'm a better person because of the joy of the hunt of that, more than the end destination, if that makes sense.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: If I can just add, uh at least for me, sometimes it is simple, and I'll tell you why.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I got married this uh about a year ago.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we were boyfriend and girlfriend, I guess, which is always ridiculous for five years that we got married a year ago.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I am totally head over heels in love with my wife.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I say this all the time that she fills the space in my heart every single day.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And falling in love with her helped heal my heart.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it was simple in that, you know, we met, and I just had a feeling she was my person, and here we are in upstate New York, happily married.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you can't see it, and some thank you.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's right in front of your nose.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was right in front of my nose.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's awesome.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is awesome.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I uh yeah, there's no question.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: My wife is is the same for me.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we worked together for a while, we were friends for a while, uh, before she asked me to attend a wedding with her, um, because she got this invitation that was had a plus one.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, uh, would you like to be my plus one?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, sure, I'm not doing anything that day.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and we went and and that changed somehow it shifted the way we we saw each other.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: We saw each other, started to see each other romantically as opposed to um, you know, friends.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it she was right in front of me the whole time.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't see it.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: What's so incredible is when you think about just after our child has died and how completely gutted we are, and then that's once that's at one end of the spectrum.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other spectrum, at least for me, is I've never been happier in my life right now.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that happen?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because it seems like it's sort of a miracle that that happened.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and part I do know how it happened, and part I think I was lucky, and part I think is just pure magic, and part was a lot of hard work.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of hard work.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I Don, I don't know if you notice what's going on in this podcast.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's it's very insightful for me because I feel like um it's very easy to focus on the fact that two dads on here lost their sons to gun suicide.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: My son was crushed uh in a car accident, and we spiraled into the deepest, darkest hole that any of us could ever fathom uh being in.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: For anybody that's listening, uh, that has never experienced grief, because we do have people on that listen to this have never experienced grief.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's no way of explaining and putting into words how hard it is.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: The thing that's unfathomable on this podcast is how much time we have spent focusing on the growth and the transformation of the journey.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Larry, to your point, you were saying just keep planting those seeds, even in those groups, for people that can't see it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: I want our listeners to understand if you're at the beginning of your journey, and when I say the beginning of your journey, understand that is not measured by days or years.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's when you first started to put the work in.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've got guys that started putting the work in at 10-year point, and now they're uh at uh 15 years, and they're kind of along the same journey path uh with growth, maybe as I am, because they're really only five years uh into it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I do want our listeners to know if you don't understand and can't comprehend a word that we're saying, because you're at that very beginning stage, allow us to plant some seeds of hope.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, learn from us, learn that there is a method and a way of finding that joy and that hope and that peace again.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean that the waves still don't crash from time to time.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean that we don't still have milestones, it doesn't mean that we don't have bad days.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: We do.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I would say that for the three of us, we're not an active mourning, an act of grief all the time, uh, which I think there's a lot to say for that.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I would like to add to that, just continue to listen to our podcast because there's a lot of episodes uh that talk about so many different things and the different ways that we uh approach grief.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it just so happens that Greg Larry and I uh are uh we're all approaching this journey the same way of finding uh finding growth, you know, through our grief and uh transforming our lives.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I I definitely am a better version of myself.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Could I just add one thing?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also think that what the three of us have in common is that we are also uh very involved in helping other bereaved folks.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And people think that we're like Mother Teresa's, that we're just like, you know, angels, basically.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is, and we know this, we get more out of it by helping others than than they do.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell bereaved fathers uh specifically, if you ever have the occasion to speak to a freshly bereaved person, it's gonna be the greatest reward you've ever felt.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I think that's partly the reason the three of us do the work that we do, because it helps us heal.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and at least for me, I this was not on my bingo card ever to be uh a group leader and a grief coach.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Never in a million years.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was gonna do it, and it's the single biggest surprise and the most rewarding thing I've ever done in my life.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: You stole my words.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great, yeah, great point.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you brought that up, Larry.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we do this.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we do this podcast.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I, we live another day uh because um we get so much out of this podcast, and uh we get way more out of it than you guys do, I assure you.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just uh the the reward that you said, Larry.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I I'll talk to guys um on the outside, I say the outside of the grief uh field that don't know anything about it, and I'll be like, oh my gosh, I just had the most rewarding day.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, What happened?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Well, I just talked to this new dad who um he lost his son to suicide, and it just was so rewarding being able to pour into him and to listen to him and to help point him towards the light and to throw him that life preserver whenever he was, you know, sitting there treading water, drowning.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And they look at me like I am absolutely insane.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, what I tell people is learn to serve others.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, putting others above yourself, it's it's kind of the Rotarian motto.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I used to be a Rotarian.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, serving others above yourself, it goes a long way, is putting the work in, is not wallowing in your self-pity, not focusing on your journey as much as focusing on others.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're not gonna be ready to do that right out of the gate.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: It takes time, um, but you can build up to it and it uh take it from us.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is it's uh probably the best aspect to the healing journey uh that I've found.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: In my book, I have a chapter and it's called The Final Lesson.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it like what you just said, you can't do it in the beginning.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do it when you're in the middle.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're in the beginning of the next chapter of your life, that's when it kicks in.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, as I said, that it's the final lesson, it's the most beautiful lesson that there is.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Larry, um, as we wrap this up, um, is Amazon the best place for people to uh get your book a space in the heart?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's two places.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Amazon number one, number two is I also uh it's also available on Audible.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: I did the narration, and I feel it's the best way to experience the book because you hear the emotion behind every word.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I tell I tell people, even if they haven't ever listened, they should they should try to listen to it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a different experience.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I would concur.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I listened on Audible, and you know, the the humor um that he puts into it, uh, it comes out like and I was thinking about if I were reading this, uh, would I get it as as well as I'm picking it up, you know, hearing him talk about it and read it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, I'm glad I listened on Audible.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: He does a really good job with that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um before we wrap up, I'd like to ask one question of you, Larry.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um what if if you were to leave our listeners with one nugget, uh something that you know they can just take and and uh run with it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing that there's you know uh listeners that have um uh very little experience with grief and some that have a lot, is there something in particular that you could you could leave them with?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I uh we touched upon this before, but I I just feel it's worth reiterating always.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is there's always hope.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you just have to look for it, but once you get it, you gotta just wrap your arms around with it and stay with it.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And no matter how shitty a day you're having, it's not always gonna be that way.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you just really have to sort of keep hope in your heart and like as Greg says, do the work and make choices.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think hope is the most important thing, particularly early on, because we're all hopeless in the beginning.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And even though you know I'm saying the words, it might not be penetrating.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: I say it at the end of every grief group that I do, no matter if we're six months in or a year in.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hope is everything.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: What I like to say is hope.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is like Rob would say it, hope is dope.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I remember that in the book.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hope is dope.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hope is dope.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Larry, we can't thank you enough uh for joining us today.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not gonna say that uh we're three grieving dads signing off uh because we're not.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're three dads that have experienced grief, and uh we're three dads that are hopeful, and we are on in the pursuit of uh more joy in our life.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, Larry, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolute pleasure, guys.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really, and an honor.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Larry.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.