Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 4 Track 1 – Phil Colon, Chief Impact Officer, Project 2050

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Album 4 Track 1 – Phil Colon, Chief Impact Officer, Project 2050 · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• What's happenin' Brand Nerds? Welcome back to another Brands, Beats, and Bytes podcast. We are in 2022 right now. I know Jeff. You don't like me to like call out the dates, but I'm going to say, this is the first podcast of 2022, and we got a special one for y'all. We got a special one. You know how we talk about our podcasts? And we break down each one in music terms. So this is album four, track one. And woo, do we have an emcee to bless y'all today? Sometimes y'all y'all hear me talk about folks that I know who are really dope marketing people, dope business people, and just dope people in general. And I will also reference the fact that there might be a friend of mine that his brother and I, we don't talk as often as we used to, but I consider him to be my brother and I can guarantee you he's going to drop some jewels on y'all. I can guarantee you. So with that set-up, what's happening in the house tonight. Mr. LT? Ah, D what a good man. It's so great to be back 2022. Album four, track one. And like you said, what a better, we can't have a think of a better way than to start the year and album four with Phil Colon. Welcome Phil to our house today. Thank you. Thank you so much. LT, Jeff, dC, Jade. I'm honored to be kicking off this album with a little freestyle and you know, look when DC said Stanford University, I was gonna say WBMB, Baruch College Radio, where it all started. First guest is poor writes his teachers who knows about that. That's okay. We'll talk about that properly, right, D? But we do that Larry. I just got to say this now you all know this brother, as Phil Colon, those of you that know him. But he has an AKA, I call him Frankie Blanco. We gotta wrangle this back. This has started off great. So D, you know, this firsthand, Phil is one of those people who always seems to be like at least one step ahead. While also being at the intersection of helping all constituencies that he touches. He always seems to be ahead of the crowd and it starts from the beginning. So we're going to break it down. So soon after graduating from Baruch College, as Phil just mentioned, which is awesome, in the early nineties, as a guy in his twenties, Phil co-founders and managers, the first ever magazine catering to urban youth, right? Urban, Latino youth, which is incredible. Right? So then Phil then joins the Coca Cola company in brand with his last position as the Senior Brand Manager in the Northeast for Coca-Cola trademark brands, Coca-Cola Diet Coke and Sprite. So that's incredible to do that in your twenties. So after learning the halls of corporate with Coca-Cola's first client, Phil, then is ahead of the game again, this time where he co-founded Latin Vox, one of the first full service agencies targeting Hispanics. Phil, and his team soon bring in other prominent clients, such as EA Sports. General Motors and MTV, and working with D and his team at Boost Mobile with this success, you know, what happens, Vox Profero, who ends up being part of Mullen Lowe purchases of Phil's agency, which is awesome. So now Phil's onto his next. Where he co-founded with actress Rosario, Dawson, Voto Latino, a non-profit organization dedicated to driving political engagement among Hispanic youth. And if that's not enough, Phil then co-founders and becomes Chief Impact Officer of Project 2050, a branding agency focused on leading companies towards leveraging and embracing a cross cultural marketplace. Project 2050 is a purpose-driven and cultural movement company, leveraging culture diversity insights to craft pro social campaigns for clients credited with igniting cultural movements among the Latin X multicultural communities emerging markets globally, P2050 exists to help brands make the right choices on where to play culturally and how to succeed in the process. The group has worked with leading brands, such as Nike, Target, EA Sports, Spotify, the Coca-Cola company, Virgin, brand Jordan, Walt Disney, NBA, and New Balance. So additionally, Phil is also founder of ELEKT that's E L E K T a peer to peer empowerment platform geared towards elevating ideas and voices from people of color. And it's also publisher of INTELIGENCIA.io, a news and ideas platform informing and inspiring the Next- Gen Latinx community through insightful journalism at bold content making news more accessible and relatable to a Latinx audience that may be out of touch with matters that can really affect their lives profoundly. Phil also serves as the Executive Board Committee of the Eagle Academy, which provides quality education, resources, and proven effective community-based initiatives to inner / at risk. Phil also serves on the board of trustees for Ballet Hispanico of leading performance arts and dance education Institute. And lastly, Phil possesses an uncanny ability. As we mentioned earlier, really identifying cultural movements before they become mainstream. So he's been quoted in the Wall Street Journal, Advertising Age, Forbes, Brand Week, The National Journal, Fast Company, LA Times, New York Times, just to name a few. This is a special dude D someone was having personal success while also helping people of color, most notably Hispanics. Brand Nerds, buckle up and enjoy. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Phil Colon. Them your flowers brothers. That's what Larry does. Them your flowers. Thank you. Pick them up, smell them, savor them. Larry. Thank you for that. You know, You did it, Phil. That's all you. Well, look, I, one of the things that I'm super uncomfortable talking about, the stuff that I've done. And so it was good for you to do that for me, because I could not do it because I just like to do so. So thank you for doing that. I couldn't, I literally could have not done that. And by the way, that's just a lot of stuff. That is a lot of stuff. So I'm glad someone's doing it for you. I'm going to do it now. Okay. Well, thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you for that. Okay. I Blanco, you've been in the game for a minute. I'm going to take us to our section. We call it, get comfy. So this is something that Larry, Jeff, jade and I, we talk about and it is to get the guests comfortable. As in the name Phil, you always comfortable, brother. You're always comfortable. And what I decided for this particular section for you, bro. Is to have you get into something that I don't hear discussed very often. You're one of the first people that I've ever heard talk about this. And as I said, I don't hear many. So when the term multicultural comes up, what many minds in marketing think are the following: okay. So we've got to do something with some African-Americans. We gotta do something with some Latinos do something with some Asians, that kind of thing. And there is this bifurcation of Black and Brown. Early Phil when you and I met one another, you were on some, there's a higher order and opportunity if Black and Brown folks, and when Black and Brown folks, do things together. Share your thoughts about that and what this means to you and what you think it means to marketing. Oh, okay. Yes. So I've always been a believer that combined we can do much more than we can siloed. I've always leaned on culture as the connective tissue to, rather than race. Right. And in growing up and growing up in New York, it's a different existence than most people's because, you know, some of my, some of my best friends are African-American and we share a lot of, a lot of history together. But I've always been fascinated with, with the Black and Brown. And I've always felt like there was a lot more room there for growth. And you're right. So back early, in the magazine days. I remember at Urban Latino Magazine you know, my two, my two former partners there really wanted to be Latin focused. And I think that was certainly the reason for the magazine, was a magazine that existed, it was written in English because, you know, no one was speaking to this generation in English. Everyone was just speaking to us in Spanish. And so there was this kind of cross cultural language part that very few people understood. But I wanted to take that a step further. And I remember we were working on our, maybe it was our third anniversary cover and I said, you know what? I want to put Lauren Hill on the cover. But I want to put Lauren Hill with Santana. Ah, yeah, yeah. Right. Cause that new song had just come out and I'm like, there's something about that that I think offers so much substance there's so many layers to that. You've got old school meets new school. At that time, Lauren, and then you have Mr. Santana, you had, you had two genres of music connecting, but more so than, than any, you had two cultures that were very similar, essentially jamming on this single. And I felt like we needed to pay attention to that and elevate and celebrate that. And so it's the first time at least that I know in the media space where a publication that was just supposed to be just Latin incorporated, something that was not. Right. And so for me, it was kind of like. All about that. And and then I, you know, I remember you know, a lot of the events we used to put together for the magazine, our musical acts also used to represent that. So we'd have like, you know, Mob Deep perform. And then we would have like, you know, Marc Antony perform right afterwards. And people would be like, whoa. And you know, so we were creating playlist back then. Except they were in live form. So I've always been fascinated with that inner with the connectivity of Black and Brown. I feel like we need to be doing more of that. I think we've just scratched the surface. Hmm. You know, Phil going into the early phases of a magazine cover in this case, Urban Latino, and saying you want to have Lauren Hill and Santana on the cover. How did your team and how did the company respond to that? You're bugging. Okay. Yep. It's going to confuse, you're going to confuse people. I'm like, no, man. It, it, for me, it was my first brand exercise of broadening the brand presence, broadening the appeal of the brand, bringing new people into the franchise. I think there's something to be said about having a media product that speaks to a certain demographic, but wouldn't it be more enticing if someone, other than that demographic learned a little bit about your culture. So for me, this was a way for others to say, well, look, let me, so I'm fascinated about this. Maybe there's something that I can learn, a non-Latino, about Latino culture, and this provides me that avenue to explore. So I've always seen it as an opportunity to open up the aperture versus the, just kind of keep it, so, so a myopic. Yeah, I've got one more thing here, Larry, then please add, Denzel Washington when he was doing Fences, as he was doing his junkets, one of his phrases was culture, not color. And he talked about Fences as a movie that he was able to do at a level of depth and nuance because he is an African-American man. And he thought that cultural perspective allowed him to do more. He said the same would be true, is true, rather, of a Steven Spielberg and Schindler's List. Could you feel I've done that? Certainly. Could I have done that? Absolutely. But probably Steven Spielberg, little better at doing it. And so what you're saying is at least what I'm interpreting you to say is that when you allow those who are intimately knowledgeable of a culture, And whatever that happens to be, and then you bring them together. There's a multiplying effect. And so you have an audience that they're like at that time, an early stage, Fugees more like this before they blew up, I would imagine more backpacker, you know, more backpacker, you know, native tongues joint. That was the Fugeesback then.Now, after they did the score now, you know, that dropped the whole thing. Now that everything changed, they were like a rock band you know, a modern day rock band. Backpackers. Okay. And then you have Santana, you know, legendary rock guitarists with a Latin flare. So you have these two audiences, who believe myopically, believe that at that time, there's not a lot that connects those two, santana and Lauren Hill now looking back, now you go, well, of course, but then, no. To show, to have the foresight Phil, to see the connections across culture, and then teach that to other folks. I just think that's wonderful, man. It's a necessary, vital tool, and talent that not many have, You know what it's, it's interesting that you bring that up because there's a recent example of how this was not done correctly. Okay. So, so I was being interviewed about a month ago to get my, my take on The West Side Story remake. Oh, Oh, oh yeah. Interesting So by the way, Steven Spielberg. Right? So, so this, this is interesting. So they say, Hey Phil, so what do you think about this remake? You know, what are your thoughts? Do you remember the first one? And, and, and just, what, what are your thoughts in general? And I said, well, I said the movie's going to flop. Okay. And now but Steven Spielberg is doing it. And, we have Latino actors in it different from the first one and it's, and, you know, and, and, and we're introducing new subplots and, you know, and its shot and, you know, 4k and so on. And so forth. I said, but it's the same story. Okay. Yeah. Right. Because the story about Puerto Rican speaking and heavy accents. Story about, womanizing and machoism in 2021. Right. What value is that going to bring to anyone? But it's going to be shot. So, you know, and, and it's the best thing. And we're providing opportunities for actors and actresses of color. I said, yes, you are. But the narrative hasn't changed. And so my, my pushback was, it took 50 years for Puerto Ricans to dispel the stereotypes that the first West Side Story put on the entire culture. Right. Because back then there was only a few media players and it was a huge hit when it first came out. It was, yeah, it was. International. So all of a sudden you had people that never encountered a Puerto Rican thinking that they behaved in a certain way. Yeah, by the way, even after they watched West Side Story, they had still not encountered a Puerto Rican, but go ahead. So now fast forward, 60 years later, you're doing the exact same story, using the exact same stereotypes, throwing out the actors might be of color. Thank you. But are you really, should you, should you really be the one telling this story? Yeah. Right. Did you have the cultural insights, the rectus, you have the technique to do it? You know, the angles, you know, you, you've got all of that done. Technically, you can shoot anything. But you really understand the culture. Yep. And so that was, that was my comment then to that article to say that I don't think anyone is interested in this story in 2021. That's a great point. And if I, if I can jump in Phil, I love what you said here. And I want to make two points. One about what you just said, and then a more macro one. Is that what you're really saying is, if you're going to do a remake like that and you don't change the story and the culture was from, it was around 1960, I think, late fifties. Right? You, you better do something different with it, or not do it at all. And somebody who is of the culture should be the one telling that story. That's really what you're saying. If, if in fact it's going to be redone and it should be redone and with a 2021 lens. Yes. I mean, you know, a lot has happened in 50 plus years. Yeah. Yes. A couple of things. Couple of things. Just a few... D, before we move on. I think we, obviously we can move to the next section, but I just want to make a one, one meta point that I think is huge. Phil, is a connector. That's what Phil does. Phil is a connector of people and cultures. And Phil, you do this seamlessly, because as you mentioned before, you know, you grew up in New York City and you grew up in a multicultural, Brown and Black community. And so it's just you living, and guess what the world needs that the world needs that in a multitude of ways. And you've been the one serving it up in many ways. So I just wanted to say that D, before we move to the next step. Yeah. And not be, and not be remissed. If I didn't say I also grew up with some tough Irish dudes and some tough Italian dudes, and we all kind of got along very well, but you know, it, it was a microcosm, you know, and we learned how to respect each other. We learned to, to lean into the things that connected us, which was hip hop and, and street culture. And so, yeah, for sure. Cool. We're going to move to the next section Phil, and we call this five questions. I ask one, Larry, ask another, we go back and forth until we get to five. Okay. Set up this first one. No, bruh. I want to mention a scenario that has nothing to do with brand and then I'll relate it. So, Phil, you remember an experience where you were a youngster. You met a young lady, young girl. And you were like, oh, I think I love you. I think I love you. She, she just kinda lit your world up. You just thought about her all the time. You want to be around all the time, just smitten with this, this young girl. All right. So I want you to have that emotion on your mind and on your heart, as I asked this next question. We're looking for something similar, but in the world of branding, where, when you engage with it, it just made you just smile. You had joy, vibrations were high. You were like, I love this brand. What was the first branding experience for you? That was like that. Wow. So it, you painted a picture in my mind and it's crystal clear. Okay. So let's hear it brotha'. It goes back, it goes back to our Coca-Cola days. Okay. So, so I remember one of my first pieces of advertising I did was with the local bottler, that was servicing the Harlem area. Harlem, New York. And we were doing point of sale around Coca-Cola classic, and we had just, we were pushing the 20 ounce bottle and it was Valentine's day. I don't know if you remember this or not. You may or may not. So the bottler said, Hey, Phil, we need to come up with something that's going to really kind of speak to a consumer group, something that they're going to relate to in a, in a way that's, that's organic. And, and that's said, Well, let's create a point of sale piece around Valentines that shows you know, a girlfriend and a boyfriend arms around each other. Boyfriend has a 20 ounce in the back pocket of his jeans. Lady, the girlfriend, is grabbing for the 20 ounce in his back pocket. And the tagline says because I'm feeling you. Hmm. Okay. Okay. That's dope. Happy, happy Valentine's day. And, and, and, you know, what do you know his vernacular? Right. So it's a play on words. So I remember the bottler was like, I really like, I Phil... Are you serious? Are you real? Like, are you I'm saying yeah. Yeah. Trust me. Trust me. So we had someone that was running community relationships on the bottler side. I can't remember the brother's name, but he's like, oh yeah. I think that might work. So anyways, put it up in a few stores and then it came back, oh man, they loved it. It was fantastic. And then I actually went into a store and I saw it on the counter and that was my magic moment. And I sit and I looked at, I was like, yeah, that feels right. That, that, that feels like a common connection between the magic of the brand and a cultural insight that married, under the occasion, because everything was occasion based. Right, right. Holidays, occasion based, Coca-Cola. So I had never seen anything like that besides, you know, the great DC on the Sprite side, but we don't need to talk about that. Everybody knows that. But you know, at least I'd never seen anything like that locally here. And so I think that was one of my, one of my, one of my proudest moments. I have a couple, but that, that, that's the first one that comes to my mind. That's good. Larry. Love that. That sounds like again, that's why you were in the place that you were literally and figuratively, to make sure that you're connecting with brand and target audience. And, and so, you know, it's great that they, that, that they actually let you do your thing. Quite honestly, It wasn't easy, but that they took a risk and they did it, and it proved to be something that was super relevant and, you know, and it's, and again, it, it brings you back to the, to the, you know, Boost Mobile days of the work that we did there. I mean, you know, when Verizon was talking about, can you hear me now? You know, we were saying, you know, what, what are we saying, DC? WHERE YOU AT? Can you hear me now? Come on, man. So, so, so again, just understanding it is magical when a brand gives you the flexibility to to do the things that you know are culturally relevant and right. And so for me having the ability to take a brand that's, that's iconic and paint a little stroke onto it, I thought was, was one of the magical moments for me. Oh, quick comment, and then we got to go to question number two. So Brand Nerds, if you were doing the same things that have always been done, you are not going to meet resistance because it's been done, right. When you're doing something that hasn't been done. The reason why you're going to know it hasn't been done is because it's going to have resistance, by very definition, it's new. It's likely going to have resistance. So that's when you know, you're onto something potentially unique. Here's the trick though. We often give up the fight too soon. After the first few signs of resistance, we go, ah, you know, you're right. We need to go back and do it the way we normally do it. Don't do that. Phil said, I feel something in this. I have a sense of this community I grew up here. I know that this consumer will be able to relate to this on myriad levels. So because of that, I want to go with it. Yeah, I know. I know. I know you don't, you don't get it. I know. Maybe don't make no sense, if it's not clear to you, it ain't gotta be clear to you. Gotta be clear to them. And I, I know them. So Brand Nerds. Keep that in mind when you're doing like the new ish, keep that in mind. All right. And before I go to question two, I want to build one thing of what you just said. Not only that, you then become that much, you that's the value you're providing that you become that much more valuable when you actually take a stand and it works and you're not doing the same as, as people were before. That's where organizations go. We got to keep this person. Yeah. The gem that I would throw on top of that. And both of you guys can relate to this. The fight becomes harder, the bigger the platform. Yes. All right. Question two, Phil. You ready? Yes. All right. So who has had, or is having the most influence on your career? Who has had? But the man is in this podcast, name is Daryl Cobbin. We know we, we, we know this. You know seriously, so, so Darryl has had a great deal of impact on me since we've met each other. And a lot of that has to do with Darryl was probably one of the few people at his level that can relate to me. And so and so having that insight, having that understanding I thought was valuable for me at that time. And then just, just understanding how the mind, you know, DC's mind works in, in very unique, unusual, great ways. All those words, you know, I'm, I'm being deliberate with my words. And so there's always something to be learned. And so yeah, I, you know, I was like a cubic zirconia and then when I met DC, I got diamond up. So Phil, you got to give us a good story though. You must have a story around this. Oh man. Puttin' you know the spot. Yeah. You know, well, look, look so, so when they say like, you know, they, you know, it takes a neighborhood to raise a a child. Right. It takes a community to work, you know? So, so in terms of brand minds, DC is, is certainly one that's that's helped tremendously. Steve Horn, another person that we know has it has been tremendous for me. Shout out to Steve Horn. Trevor, from, from Trevor Edwards, X, Nike, former President of Nike. I've always told, I think I've told DC and Trevor about each other with that connection point, he should be on your show and I'm glad I'll be happy to make that connection. That'd be great. Just great brand minds. And you know, I, I can't point to one thing cause there's so many of them to be quite honest. I, I can't, I, there's not one, I can't point to one. Yeah. We've had a lot of them. Larry, Phil and I, so many conversations, so many moments, one of the treasures of my life. I do have one, though. I'm going to say this really quickly. It's not a branding story. It's a boys and family story. So Larry, you know this well, when I was married, I used to love to grill up steak, love to grill up steak. So when Phil would come from New York to Atlanta, he would come and hang with me and my family. So on one occasion, I got the whole barbecue situation happening with my family and Phil comes over. All right. So now Phil don't really know, I can burn on the grill now. He don't really know. So I hook everything up and and Phil comes, and he's eating, and Larry, the look on this brother's face, as he's putting his food in his mouth, he looked like he saw a ghost. He was like, he was like, y'all get down like this over here. And then check this out, check this out LT. So I would send him pictures of what I'm grilling. All right. So now Phil gets married. He has his family and and then they moved to Jersey and then he gets a grill and he starts doing his thing and he sends me pictures of his family. Just a beautiful moment. Just a beautiful, beautiful moment. I remember that. I remember that very, very well. Those were very well cooked steaks. DC, I have to tell you that. I remember, us three had 'em vacuum sealed. All right, man, we'll go to the next question. Phil as evidenced in brother Larry's eloquent highly, in depth, creative articulation of your magnanimous background. All right. This third question has nothing to do with the wonderful successes that make you, you. We want to know your biggest F up and what you learned from it. Oh, wow. There's a few. We all have them. So I'll give you three, interrelated in a way. Okay. So the first one I'll start with the, with the most important part is: be careful who you hire. Ooh, What glitters is not always gold. Mm. And so the right hire and the wrong hire can, can do incredible damage to your organization or can elevate your organization. Right? So really being deliberate with who you bring onto your team is important. And, you have to follow your gut and your instinct in that capacity. So, so I would say one of my biggest F ups was not following my instinct when my instinct was telling me, no, no, that's not going to be good. Wow. But what I saw on paper, I got, I, was you know, I was hypnotized, but what I saw on paper, You were seduced, brother. I was seduced. So I turned down what I was feeling. I turn that volume down and that's always, that's always led me to making bad decisions. So I would say in, in that concert is, is continue to trust your instincts and be very deliberate about who you hire. So I would say that's, that's one. Hiring is important, right? Yeah. Phil, before you move on. You mind if I asked you a question about that? Sure. It sounded like the person on paper was perfect. Like all the things were, were lining up, but your gut was saying don't do it. Right. Like, and so how loud was that voice and, and did, and how quickly did you know? Uh oh. Great question, these are good. Okay. How loud was that? It wasn't loud enough where, where it triggered my defense mechanisms to go. Right, because, yeah, because it happened within the, the confounds of, there was a lot popping for me at the time. Yeah. So there was a lot of, lot of things happening, things happening. So this was just the a microcosm of a myriad of things that were happening, part of that, because there were so many things happening I had to kind of make what I thought was a, was a quick decision. Right. But, but, but, but it proved in my mind, I didn't think it was going to be that significant. But when, when you put that person against one of your biggest accounts, then you understand how that can manifest itself. Right. So at the very minute, I didn't feel a tremendous need. It was kind of one of those things I'll deal with it later. I just need a stop gap right now, but then you never get. Ah, by the time he tried to get to it, it's already gotten to you. Ah that's dope. If that makes sense. That's the first one. That's the first one. And so the, the, the second one is having the patience to let the play develop in front of me. So we're all watching, you know, we're knee deep in the in the NFL playoffs, you know, you're seeing great running back play and, you know, I compare it to a great running back. A great running back is going to pick and choose their holes, but they're going to let their tackles open up the lanes for them. Right. I want to take that ball and I want to run through the first hole I see. So I might get three yards, but if I let the play develop, I might take it to the house. So having the patience to let the play develop is also something that I wish I could have done differently as I think about kind of like my career. That's a jewel, D. Whew. Do you have Phil a specific example of when you did not allow the play to develop in front of you and you ran your ass up in a hole and got cracked after a couple of yards? Right. Great question. So, yes. So, so we, we had a client that wanted to do three separate projects on the same day. Okay. Right. And said, Hey, Phil, we love what you did with us. You know, X, Y, Z, we've got these things coming up. We've got three projects. Can you do them? Happening on the same day? Okay. Three big profile events happening on the same day. Can, can you do it? And so my mind is like, of course, of course we can do it. Right. You know, we just, you know, we build the plane as its flying. Right. Of course we'll do it, cause that's just the hustle. But had I been patient hindsight, I would have said, I just like to do two. Assign that third one to someone else, because having that patience would have given me a longer-term return. Then the immediate of the three. So to cap that story off. Two events ran really well, third event did not go back. And so it costs me an account. Whereas if you did just the two, they would have been thrilled and wanted even more, but wanted you to do even more. That's what you're saying. Right? Exactly. And so that's, that's just one, one example of something where if I just little patient am, I've got enough food to eat. Right. I don't need an extra triple chocolate cake, right? Yeah. I'm okay. Yeah. Right. So, so that's where sometimes. You know, your expectation exceeds your no, sh I should say your expectation, but your desire exceeds what, what should be the best and you know, route to take at that particular moment. So you have to have hindsight, you have to be able to step back and look at the entire field and say, what will be the ramifications of this decision through the course of this entire game? Will this result in a turnover in the pick six? Do I punt the ball and get better field position the same, and you know, the next time, you know, we're going way sports right now. So I apologize. No, it's very relevant and it's, and I'm going to give you 15 seconds, Jimmy Garappolo not waiting for Trent Williams to be set and the game's over. If he just did what you said instead of having that crazy ending was good for, for the NFL and their ratings, but not good, you know, and he, it didn't burn them, but that's what you're talking about. Jimmy G did everything possible to blow that game. Exactly. He tried really hard. Really, really hard. As they would say in my neighborhood, "Bless his heart." Bless his heart, you know, it's so, so that's another one. And then, and I guess the third one, and I think I learned this from DC, I'm pretty sure is trust, but verify, keep going on that, Phil. That one kind of lends itself to both examples of almost, and it lends itself to the first one about your hire and the importance of hiring the right people. And it probably lends itself more to that point. Is it, you gotta do your homework, you gotta do your due diligence. And because you know, not, not everything appears to, not everything turns out to be the way it appears. And so I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also scrutinizing what happens next. And so trust, but verify to me is an important, I think it's a phrase that, that, that Reagan used. And, and, and so I, that that's always kind of resonated with me and you know, and, and, you know, yeah, trust, but verify. We ready to move to the next question, D these are, these are awesome. Phil, thank you. Regarding technology and marketing. Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech versus areas that they should be leery? Yeah. You know what I think just consumer marketing in general, I think is going through a transformation right now, to be quite honest. I think there's this tug of war between tech and storytelling and I, and I mean, storytelling by, you know, what I mean by storytelling is, is true brand building. I often tell people that, you know, Disney was creating magic before there was Facebook. And and you know, Coca-Cola was creating magical moments before there was Google. And and Nike was telling us to just do it before there was Instagram. There's something to be said about the, the importance of, of really being a brand builder and telling stories. And I think this tug of war between, you know, data science and storytelling, I think it's reached a tipping point. And so although I'm fascinated with, you know data helping us, how to best maybe tell both stories, right. It provides us some insights of maybe some things that, that we can take into that storytelling, but I don't think it should be the end all be all. So I'm less excited about performance marketing because performance marketing, I think AI is going to be doing that on his own, right? So you need the nuances and the, you need the in-between, you need the gray areas. You need, you need to add context and texture to those data points so that you can craft a story. That's going to resonate with your end consumer. So it looks like, you know, technology's definitely dug a stronghold in consumer marketing, but I feel like a resurgence of, of true storytellers are coming back right now. And I think it's under the guise of culture. Cause I think culture, you know, look, you know, Steve Jobs is the difference between like, you know, a marketer and a brand builder, you know, Steve Jobs created a product that you didn't know you wanted until he made it, right. Data didn't give him that information. Nope. Imagination gave him that information. So I'm hoping that we're entering into this new phase of imagination. And, I think that that's going to unlock a lot of greatness and challenger brands. I think this is the year of challenger brands. I think there's a huge resurgence of startups. I'm super fascinated with the CPG space is where all of us began see great innovation in that place. And I see, great. And, and by the way, a lot of these tech companies are doing great work in the CPG category, and I'm, I'm super excited about that. So, yeah, I hope I answered your question Incredibly well, I think as usual, you're seeing ahead, this is, this is very much in line with who you are Phil. I think you took the question and saying, here's where I think this is going and, you know and performance marketing. Yeah. Great. But that's of today. Well, what's happening next and I think you you did an incredible job of of telling us and our audience where, where things are headed. D, you want to add anything to that? Before we head to the next question? I'm good brother. I'm ready to hit the next. Great. Blaco, there's a lot for you to be proud of. I like to know what you're most proud of. Yeah. I have to say that. I can tell you what I'm most proud of now. And I say that now, because I think my story still has chapters. Of course. So I think for the time being, I think I'm most proud of, you know, my family that's that's first and foremost. And so I'm, I'm proud of, you know, the kids that Angela and I have brought into this world and seeing them develop, I think, has been one of my proudest moments. Shout out names, Stella and Sammy, one time. Yeah. So Larry, there's a new edition. A dog, Sky. That's correct. She came, sky came to us last Christmas. You know, she used a pandemic puppy and, and she's kind of a fit in nicely into the household. And so I'm so happy about the, the family unit we've been able to build. That's number one. On the number two, I have to say, you know, VotoLatino is one of those kind of proud moments for me. You know, it happened at a time where there was a lot of civil unrest, I think in our society kind of goes through these cycles of unrest. And and this happened at a time where I felt like the Latin community was getting battered and beaten and didn't have a voice. And so that was one of my proudest achievements is being able to kind of build that firm from the ground up and see be successful and be the organization that it is today. I'm proud of that. So now I feel really good about that. And but, but, you know, I'm still focused on what can be better. And so that, that those are the two things that I think would, would, would kind of count. There's probably a few more, but those are the ones that stand out the most. All right. D, those are great. Those are really great, Phil. Are we ready to go to the next question? Let's do it! All right. Phil, what's poppin? What's Poppin'? This is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. So D, do you want to take the first one or shall I? Let me take it a LT. Let me take. In honor of my man, Phil, here. He mentioned the term challenger brands earlier. And my what's popping as established brands versus the challenger brands I'm going to the fashion industry. So in the fashion industry, the major high-end fashion brands, some of them are the following Dior, Gucci, LV, Balenciaga, Balmain, Hermes. These are the, the cadre, if you will, of established fashion brands. Here in Atlanta, if you go to Phipps Plaza or Lenox Mall, these are the two malls here. They're adjacent from one another. Even during the pandemic, you go to the LV store, they have like roped off areas. People outside of the store was waiting to get inside of the stores to drop racks. The Gucci store in Phipps Plaza, LV in Lenox Square Mall, the Gucci store is in Phipps Plaza, the line was going from the door all the way down the hall. It's like, you'd think they'd given away Gucci stuff. Incredibly vibrant brands. However, oh, another thing to do is like, like Gucci, they're doing all these collabs right now, these capsules with other brands. And so you might think they're comfortable looking at the lines outside of the stores, that kind of thing, but there's a new set of brands coming. And they're challenger brands. My middle daughter, her name is Lauren. She attends Savannah College of Art and Design the Atlanta Institute, SCAD, shout SCAD, one time to shout and shout Lauren and shout Lauren. So she has done photography. She's done fashion design. And currently she's doing fashion marketing and I'm asking her, Lauren, who are some of the next designers. And she says, well, dad, there's Marni, I've never heard of Marni. There's Acne, never heard of Acne. There's helium and A Cold Wall. These are just a few of these. She mentioned. So I said, show them to me, Lauren. So she shows me their websites and Phil, and Larry, the designs of these designers, the avant garde, bold nature of them. I've never seen. Wow. With Balenciaga, Balmain,or Dior. I've never seen any of this stuff. And then I said I said, Lauren you know, how much would this like utility vests, for example, she was like, like a couple hundred dollars. Okay. You can't get a Dior t-shirt for less than $400 or $500, let alone a utility vest. And then I said to her, I said "so Lauren, are you, are you interested in the established fashion brands?" And she says, no, dad, my friends and I are not. And I said, why not? And she said, in so many words, you all discovered those brands. We are discovering these brands. And I just paused for a second. Are you all can't see Phil right now, he's got his hand on his chin. And so what's poppin' for me is the ability of challenger brands to leverage the notion of discovery and cutting edge risk in ways that established brands can do, but aren't doing. So here's my prediction. Now, remember I mentioned these brands now, Marni, Acne, Hilliot,I'm sorry if that's the wrong pronunciation, and if I'm wrong about that and A Cold Wall. Five years from now, these are going to be the brands that are established brands. And I don't know what's going to happen with Hermes. I don't know what's going to happen with with Gucci. I'm sure they're going to be around, but the lines might be at these new challenger brand spots and not at the established. So that's, what's popping for me. What say you gentlemen? Phil, I'd love to hear your take on this. I I have to think about this right now. I have to think about this. So, I'm going to, I'm going to save mine. Okay. So let me jump in Phil while you're thinking. Okay. So what strikes me is that I think every generation has their, like their brands, right? Like who really is of them and, and really represents who they are. So I think there's a natural natural cycle of things. So of course, Lauren's saying that these are our brands dad, so, Yes. So I think that's really interesting. So what happens here to me though, is how does the marketing and business side then enter into the equation? And here's where I'm going with this. Do these brands do what, let's say a Nike did, or other brands that have really popped with people and say, "Nope, we're just, we're staying the course. And we're just going to kick ass." Or at some point, does Gucci again, I'm just using them as a illustrative to say, you know what Marni what's it going to take? We're offering you X dollars X, you know, what's the deal where they in essence bring Marni within house. Right. And, and in essence, they become part of the Gucci umbrella, whether they stay their own course, as their own brand Dean, we talk about this all the time. Are they P&G example where they continue and nobody knows it. We talk about this all the time. Almost no young people understand that Instagram is owned by Facebook, right? Or do they take an approach that, where they become a sub-brand and again, we're just using Gucci as illustrative. That's going to be really interesting to see where the marketing and business of all this, you know, how that gets integrated, whether they stay the course and stay independent, whether they, you know, take what would probably be huge money and become part of a larger organization of establishment. And Larry, I want to add some real quick Phil, before you go. I forgot that Lauren said this, well, she didn't say this part, I'm going to get to what she said in a moment. For our generation, these brands, Dior, Gucci, LV let's take LV our for the moment, Balenciaga. Balmain, Hermes, is that I know what those brands are. And I believe many today buy those brands because they know what they are. Yup. Here's what Lauren said to me. She knows WHO designs it. Wow. And so WHAT was the deal I think, and has been and still in large part now for this younger generation it's WHO so your point about if Gucci buys Marni, for example, right? I'm not quite sure that Marni is going to hold on to what's brand efficacy, right? If ever created, Marni is now gone. Now let me go back. So how this works again. I've bought headphones before. I used to buy Bose headphones for a long time. Okay. I bought them because the what, for me, it was a high quality headphones. All right. Now Phil mentioned Steve Jobs. I bought Apple shit because of the WHO. I knew that dude, Steve Jobs, he's in there making certain that I'm going to get the absolute best stuff, and I also want to relate this to me, and the teams that I've been a part of, which Phil knows, you know, as well, Larry. I think when we were doing our Sprite stuff and it landed in the universe, it's my belief that millions of people paused and said, who. Who are the people making that? No doubt. They know something, they know something. So I just want to add that. Okay. All right. Phil the floor is yours, brother. Yeah. You know, I think I take that... By the way it's all very true by the way those, those brands that are super dope brands. It reminds me of the music industry. Right. You know, you had your record major record labels and then, you know, and then Russell comes around and says, we just go and do it our way. And you know, and they formed their own culture around music and then the majors buy him out. Right. That's, that's kinda like the exit strategy, right? I think an example on the fashion side was when Supreme got acquired by VF Corp, you know, I don't know if Supreme is still Supreme. Yup. My opinion. It is not. Right. So, so there's something to be said as a trade off there. You know, but it's interesting. I think Lauren is, is on point. I think every generation looks for brands that they can identify with. And I think That's theres almost Phil, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think the challenge for, for legacy brands is how do you remain relevant? And you gotta tip your cap off to, you know, to Jordans and, and you know, and what they're doing there. I remember when we did the 25th year anniversary for Brand Jordan as a brand, and it dawned on me then that there were people at that event that never saw Jordan play. Never saw him play. But gets passionate about his shoes than anybody else. Right. I think that's the power of creating that kind of, you know, that legendary status that kind of transcends generations. And there's something about the ethic that went behind the forming of that bigger core Michael Jordan that people can relate to, tenacity, hard working, you know, killer instinct, and all of those things that are relatable right now. So, so yeah, I, I think, I think is, is the year of the challenger brand. You know, I went snowboarding this past weekend with Sammy, and I, and I noticed this, this bus wrapped with this brand called Two Robbers. Two Robbers?. Okay, I said, that's dope. I said, what is this Two Robbers? He was a hard seltzer brand, but it was all wrapped in skate cultures, snow boarding cultures. That right there is going to be a GOAT brand in about 48 months. Well, that was my first interaction with this brand. That's interesting. The name, something about the name, the visuals were great, the logo was... It ain't Bud Light Seltzer. It is not Bud Light Seltzer. Say that, say that one more time. No offense to our friends at Anheuser-Busch, but yeah. Shall we move? Should we move to mine? My what's poppin'. Let's do it brotha. Okay. So I don't know if you gentlemen saw, but NBC Universal's Peacock had an interesting announcement last week. And so the press release said seeking to broaden the appeal of its streaming service Peacock. They announced plans to launch a Latino focused programming up called Tplus on the platform and the new offering, which is scheduled to launch this fall, of 2022, on Peacock is designed to be a digital extension of NBC Universal's popular Spanish language, television network Telemundo. And by the way, this also corresponds with the world cup taking place in November/December, which is so weird because it's in Quatar and Telemundo has the Spanish speaking rights while Fox has the English speaking rights. So did you gentlemen see that announcement? No, I did not. Phil, had you seen it? I did. Okay. Love to hear your thoughts. It's the, it's the same old, same old. So you know, look, I've lived through MTV Tres, MTV Españo, there's been so many attempts of legacy companies trying to speak to this demo and they're still don't get it. That was my reaction and I wanted to T this up for you. But by the way, I appreciate it though. I certainly do. I appreciate it. I appreciate that, there's a, there's an understanding that there's a consumer market place that probably brands are not fully tapping into. I think there's an instinct by media companies and marketers that that does exist. The part that everyone seems to get wrong is they focus too much on language and not enough on culture. To me culture is the driver, language is the execution part. Language is tackle. Culture is strategic. And so not understanding the cultural nuances that we spoke about. Not having an intimate understanding of how they intertwined with other cultures. Not having that insight. Not knowing how to turn that on not knowing how to make that sexy. Not knowing how to make that hot. Not knowing how to make that relevant. Without those ingredients, a platform for that is just an added value for a brand looking to spend some dollars. Are you really going to move culture? I don't know. Man, Phil. That's so you, you said that so well, D, you want to add anything to that? Cause I Phil dropped some incredible jewels on us there. Yeah, I do want to add something. Back to what I said earlier, connectedness to Phil and his story about the Valentine's Day Coca-Cola POS in Harlem and beyond and New York city. And you know, you're going to meet resistance when you take a risk. What I find interesting about Tplus is not that it's Tplus, but that when all of these media companies were contemplating their premium service, the first one to do it, believe was Disney. And they announced their premium offering was going to be called Disney+. And I'll be damned if every media company after that, and every one of them did not have whatever the name is and plus all of them had it. Now I don't watch a lot of TV, other than sports and history and things like that, documentaries. So I'm out of school when I say this, cause I don't really know, but if someone said, let's just go around the horn and for each of these networks fill in the bank plus you tell me what the plus really means other than more money. What does the plus with what are you getting more of that you really want? And by the way, they're getting a direct relationship with you. That's what they're loving about this because they're taking out the middleman, that's the business part of this equation Thats for the companies to do. So that's what I would say to Telemundo plus is that I would ask my Latino brethren and sistern, what do you think you're going to get from Telemundo and this plus, that in your mind, you just can't live without it. Let me just say it like this. I would have this as an additional word to all of these companies, including Telemundo. Blank plus, and my final word would be what. That's me. Do you have a what's popping for us? NFTs are what's popping. Is how brands are starting to play in this space. And it brings me back to this whole idea of limited. Now we all dealt with limited products and services in our marketing careers, right. You know, Boost Mobile limited phones, designer phones, and limited, you know, right. The unlimited is the new limited. Right. And so it's interesting to see how that's manifesting itself in the NFT community and how brands are starting to play in that space, like the Nike's of the world and, and offering limited product. NFT art products. I think that's interesting. I'm going to keep my eye on that as that community continues to evolve and expand. There's a lot of garbage on NFTs. There's a lot of gems. There's a lot of hype, but they are some kind of, I see longstanding platforms that are being developed. So I'm super fascinated about that space. So I will have more to offer at a later date cause I'm totally immersed in it right now because I really want to get a better understanding of it. But but it's definitely you know, virtual reality is the new reality. Right? And so that's popping to me how brands interact in the NFT space is popping to me. Hmm. Very cool. Truth be told Phil we've we've had the good fortune of getting involved in NFTs for clients and it is incredibly fascinating, incredibly dynamic. And I feel like we're just literally scratching the surface. And I say we both in the, in our consulting side Brand Positioning Doctors, as well as the macro is really figuring it out. And I do love the opportunity as a brand to really enable your brand lovers to really have something that they can, they can hold that hold dear to them. I think from a brand standpoint, that's a huge opportunity and figuring out how to do it and how it manifests itself, I think is, is going to be a huge part of the equation. Yes. Yes. I agree with that. And, and I'm going to add another thought for you guys to maybe react to. A lot of the things that I've been working on lately with clients revolves around creating the right corporate culture. I think corporate culture is popping. I, you know, I think the conundrum now that companies are facing is, you know, under this guise of the, the great resignation they're having trouble retaining quality people you know, working at their companies. And I think they're struggling with that. And and you know, it's no longer like, you know, you know, free meals on Friday or chef cooked meals, or like, you know, as many M&M's, you know, and I think brands are having trouble figuring out. What is that piece? What is that connective tissue that I need to extend to my workforce? That's going to get them to continue to be here and want to be here and want to Excel at what they're doing. And so I think HR departments are being destructive right now. And I think there's a lot happening in that particular space. The HR space needs disruption. How do you evaluate employees? How do you promote employees? How do you reward employees? I think that entire ecosystem of remote work hybrid work, creating the right culture where you feel you belong. That whole area is absolutely popping. Hmm. And I think we'll be the competitive advantage between a brand that exceeds and a brand that fails. That's strong brother. That is strong. That's strong. I think it's time for us to wrap things up, D. This has been so awesome, DC. You want to posit your learnings first though or shall I? Would you do the honor? I would love to. And I think I'm going to segue with what Phil was just talking about. I have five fantastic learnings. I think that Phil posited and one is a perfect segue with what he was just talking about with culture and, and it goes to his biggest F up is the first one is be very deliberate in who you hire. Yeah. You and deliberate means you got to really know who you are and really smart and connecting the dots there. So that's the first one. Here's the second one is a challenge to the Brand Nerds out there. Like Phil has done throughout his career and continues to do, be a connector. This is it. This is going to serve you personally and your community and mankind. So that's the second one. Third have patience to let the play develop in front of you. That's such a great one. And one of those F ups. And my fourth one is start with the brand first and then figure out how the tech can help advance or enhance your brand and your brand story. And then the last one is this is such a huge jewel that he just mentioned a few minutes ago. Language is tactical. Culture is strategic. I love that. Oh, it's, it's so sexy. It's so sexy. Is that it for your brother, Larry? Yes, that's it. That was excellent. I failed to mention this upfront, as Phil was talking about, and you brought this up, Larry, the the remake of West Side Story. And so brother Phil talked about how he thought that wasn't going to work. I don't know what it did at the box office. I haven't heard it, you know, setting the world on fire. But that's true of many movies during COVID. But I failed to mention y'all who cannot see Phil is that the, the brothers from PR. So when he's talking about Puerto Rican culture, he knows something about it, cause the brother's Puerto Rican. So I just needed to call that out and call that out Phil, when we first began, the Brands, Beats, & Bytes podcast, when we would come to the end of the show close, and we talk about what we've learned from those that we have had the auspicious opportunity to spend some time with, I would talk about what I heard and what I thought might need to be pulled out for the benefit of our of our podcast listening audience. And then, I don't know when Larry, or Jeff, or Jade, somewhere along the line of doing these podcasts, as I listened to folks. Visions would come into my mind, not what the person did or is doing that I have the pleasure of talking to learn, to have better talking to them podcasts, but who is this? And what is the gift that they have, that they are contributing to the world that no one else can do in the way that they do. The same now has happened with with you Phil, and I've known you forever. I'm going to go through and set up a couple of things that you said, and then get to my conclude about who I believe you are and the gift that you bring forward to the world. You started talking about the difference between culture and language or cultural call it race or color. You use that with The West Side Story, which we've already talked about here. You talked about the time you did not trust your instincts. You did not trust your instincts with the hire, and you look back, you wish you had. And then when we sit, we said, okay, why Larry has a good question? Why did you not like what happened there? I think it was you, Larry, that asked the question. You talked about, hey, there, there was a, you were doing well. And so Larry said, how loud was the voice, that wasn't that loud? Cause we would do one. Well, in other words, there was some noise in the atmosphere, Phil. And oftentimes success comes with noise. Now, when you go to the therapist office, they don't say I'm really glad you're here to set the stage for how we're going to talk with one another, and as we talk with. I'm gonna have this marching band coming here and they go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So that we can chat. They don't do that. They say quiet. Might be some incense, some candles coming on, maybe some very silent, low decibel concerto. And the reason why they do that is because they want to give you space to think. That's why that happens. All right. Then you talked about letting the play develop in front of you, how you would just hop out there. And you mentioned the word patience. Patience, young lad. Larry's already brought this up, Phil, about you being a connector, and about to see things early Lauren Hill, Santana, putting them together. That kinda thing. I don't think I've ever heard the term yet Phil, brand Psychic. Brand Psychic. When we hear the word psychic, sometimes we think of these weird people attempting to predict the future or that kind of thing. We go. Ah, ah, but then the brand world, there are a few people who could actually do it. They can actually see what will manifest before it manifest. And then the challenge, Phil, becomes getting everyone else to buy into and trust that you can see something that others cannot see. Jeff and I have had this conversation as well. Not about you, but just some things we were doing. So you're a Brand Psychic. Now, why would you mention NFTs poppin'? Right? Because you're a psychic. Now a lot of us out here in the world will go, well, you know, I got to kind of wait until these NFTs kind of settled down a little bit. I don't really know what it is. I'm non fungible token. I don't know what the fuck that is. So yeah, I know I kind of got to do it, but it feels so new to me. So we got to get some experts to help us figure this out. This is what many think. But if you go back and this is what you're able to do, and you go to examples, that are already known, that we're comfortable with, there's a book called Sapiens, that I'm a, I'm rolling through. This is a great book. I've heard that D. Oh this is it. Oh yeah. So I think, Yuval Noah Harari, if I'm butchering your name, brother, I'm sorry. Sapiens. All right. And he talked about money now, everyone on the globe is aware of money. If you take out a $20 bill, a 20 Quid or 20 yen or 20 Rand, we all know what that is. Right. But, but this is what he says, he says, all it is piece of paper with some color on it. Okay. But, so why do we value that? We value it because that piece of paper is convertable. So we can convert it into other things and go get some milk, get a car, get a house that kind of thing. And the other thing is that there's an agreed alignment on its value. So if you run that up now, this is this, this dude's thinking it's about trust. We trust, I trust Phil, like yo, that 20 bucks, I trust that he understands the value of that 20 bucks. So when I go and I get a haircut, you Phil, as a barber has to trust that I, that $20 is $20. And I have to trust this dude's gonna like cut my hair for $20. So that's the trust. That's the foundation of it. The same is true of NFTs. Right now to most of us, NFT is like this way I think all it needs is the following. That there's some convertability of its value. I got an NFT. I sell that. I'm going to go buy a house. And that there is a value, that's aligned to that NFT. Oh, that's a Banksy NFT.. Oh, that, that, yeah, that's going to be like 30 million. All right. So really what I'm coming to is a brand psychic, even though a brand psychic, and you are Phil, can look deep into the future. What the best brand psychics can really do, is they could connect it to the past, and have some of the same fundamentals of the dollar, dollar bill y'all. Connected to the NFT. Phil, you can see these things, most cannot. I'm going to add a little bit to that and brand and the world is the US dollar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yup, yup. Biggest brand in the world. In God We Trust. And I agree with you that. In God We Trust. In God We Trust. So if I put on a piece of paper, some colors, some numbers and put in God we trust and it's an American dollar. Even a dude in Pakistan will go. Yeah, that's what it is. And I want some of them. So brother, you're a brand psychic. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome. Well, so Phil, anything you learned from our wonderful conversation today That you guys are wonderful, and that, and that I always enjoy having a dialogue with, with each one of you, either individually or as a group. I think it's important to have these conversations. I think for your audience that might be new to the branding game or trying to get into marketing or entertainment or some aspects of that. I think it's important to take away some of these gems and not, not do the same mistakes. I think that's a very valuable outcome of these podcasts. So I've enjoyed my time here. Thank you for the platform. And I hope that we've had a, you know, a meaningful effect on someone's life. Oh boy. Well said that that is perfect. Perfect. Ending in a bow on the show here as I go into the outro here. So brand nerds, thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats and Bytes recorded virtually on zoom and a production of KZSU Stanford, 90.1 FM radio worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Joseph Anderson, Jade Tate, Hailey Cobbin, and Tom Dioro. The Podfather. And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing with another great business leader as our guest.