Latest / China Considered / China’s Pandemic Legacy: Politics, Power, and Public Health with Yanzhong Huang | China Considered | Hoover Institution

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China’s Pandemic Legacy: Politics, Power, and Public Health with Yanzhong Huang | China Considered | Hoover Institution · China Considered

• 0:07
  - Welcome to China
• 0:08
  Considered a podcast that brings fresh insight
• 0:11
  and informed discussion to one
• 0:12
  of the most consequential issues of our time,
• 0:14
  how China's changing and changing the world.
• 0:16
  I'm Liz, Economy, Hargrove Senior Fellow
• 0:18
  and co-director of the Program on the US, China,
• 0:20
  and the World at the Hoover Institution at
• 0:22
  Stanford University.
• 0:24
  Today we're gonna talk about China and public health.
• 0:27
  It may seem like a niche issue,
• 0:29
  but from everything that the world has seen with regards
• 0:31
  to SARS and then with COVID, we know that
• 0:34
  what China does at home has enormous implications
• 0:36
  for the rest of the world.
• 0:38
  And to guide us on our discussion, we're very fortunate
• 0:41
  to have Yanzhong Huang.
• 0:43
  He is a Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations
• 0:46
  and a professor at Seton Hall University.
• 0:48
  He's also the author most recently
• 0:50
  of toxic politics in in-depth exploration into
• 0:53
  how China's environmental problems contribute
• 0:56
  to its health problems.
• 0:57
  Welcome, Yanzhong. It's great to have you with us.
• 1:01
  - Well, thank you, Liz, for having me.
• 1:03
  - So let's start with what's going on inside China.
• 1:07
  You have, I think, followed China's public health system
• 1:11
  for probably longer than almost anybody else in the field.
• 1:16
  What kind of changes have you seen over time since you first
• 1:19
  began studying, you know, China's public health system?
• 1:23
  What has, what has really struck you most about the changes
• 1:26
  and what hasn't changed?
• 1:29
  - Well, I think if you just look at the,
• 1:33
  the, the public health system in China, right,
• 1:36
  that you've seen, right?
• 1:37
  The, you know, they are making significant strides, right?
• 1:42
  With average life expectancy rising to 78.5 years.
• 1:46
  That up, that was up from 77 2020.
• 1:51
  They've made so much progress in biotech, you know,
• 1:55
  that there is now becoming a global leader.
• 1:59
  You know, quickly catching up with the United States.
• 2:02
  If you look at the data, you know, 20, 25, 30 7%
• 2:06
  of molecules licensed
• 2:08
  by major pharma firms originated from China, right?
• 2:12
  The, you know, they, you know, also, you know,
• 2:16
  major changes in,
• 2:20
  I would say challenges, you know,
• 2:22
  that are happening in the population by population.
• 2:26
  Aging certainly is acute.
• 2:28
  Now, 20% of the population,
• 2:31
  we are talking about nearly 300 million aged over 60.
• 2:36
  They have non-communicable diseases we call NCDs.
• 2:40
  And they cause more than 80% of the death in China. That is
• 2:44
  - Exactly, what are those like, that's like what?
• 2:47
  Cancer, obesity, diabetes. These are ncd,
• 2:50
  - Yeah.
• 2:51
  We call the, the cancer, diabetes, you know,
• 2:54
  cardiovascular disease, disease.
• 2:56
  But all, all those issues, you know,
• 2:58
  like respiratory conditions, you know, so,
• 3:02
  and their risk factors you consider like obesity, right?
• 3:06
  Approximately 50% of Chinese adults are overweight
• 3:10
  or obese according to a 2020 report.
• 3:13
  Smoking continue to be a challenge, right?
• 3:16
  Over 50% of the adult men in Shriners smoke.
• 3:21
  And there's, you know, infectious diseases continue
• 3:24
  to be a challenge, right?
• 3:25
  That is exemplified by the, this year,
• 3:29
  by the, in the summer, right?
• 3:30
  The, the chi gonia outbreak in Guangdong, right?
• 3:34
  That started for Shang, you know, driven
• 3:38
  by mosquito boom transmission, you know, raising concerns
• 3:42
  for open spread.
• 3:43
  You know, there are all these challenges of problems.
• 3:45
  But in the meantime, if you look at the,
• 3:48
  the public health infrastructure, right?
• 3:51
  Continue to be centrally coordinated
• 3:53
  by the National Health Commission, you know,
• 3:56
  that oversees a vast network
• 3:58
  of over 1 million healthcare facilities,
• 4:01
  including state owned tertiary hospitals,
• 4:05
  community health centers, specialized in centers
• 4:09
  for disease control and prevention.
• 4:11
  They call it also CDC, right?
• 4:13
  But, you know, they have CDCs at national prevention
• 4:16
  and local levels, right?
• 4:19
  Universal bail,
• 4:21
  basic medical insurance now covers over 95%
• 4:25
  of the population.
• 4:26
  You know, but you know, the, you know, the benefits varies,
• 4:30
  depends on what schemes you are subscribed.
• 4:34
  The, and, you know,
• 4:38
  the local government now are facing in the post COVID year,
• 4:41
  all this fiscal challenges in providing, right.
• 4:44
  The, the public services, right?
• 4:48
  And the, they're trying to fix the loopholes, you know, left
• 4:53
  by, in the post COVID era, right?
• 4:56
  The, the public health system, you know, with this, the,
• 5:00
  this newly revised infectious disease law, you know,
• 5:04
  now encouraged for, which I found this is very interesting.
• 5:08
  Now, finally, by this law effective, you know,
• 5:11
  this last month encouraged the individual sharing
• 5:16
  and reporting disease related information by, you know,
• 5:20
  mentioning that entities
• 5:23
  and individuals will report in good faith eligible
• 5:26
  for rewards and exempt from liability if the event is
• 5:31
  later rolled out.
• 5:33
  So, so yeah, we're seeing both challenges, you know, changes
• 5:38
  and also stability in the system, essentially.
• 5:42
  - I mean, it used to be the case that, you know,
• 5:45
  doctors were not paid well.
• 5:46
  So the medical profession, it was hard
• 5:49
  to attract people sometimes.
• 5:51
  Is that, has that changed?
• 5:53
  Has investment, has government investment
• 5:56
  in the practice medicine, for example, improved so
• 5:59
  that now you're getting more and better doctors
• 6:03
  and they're getting paid more?
• 6:05
  - Well, well, in, in the United States,
• 6:08
  but typical that you have, you know, the, the, the, some
• 6:10
  of the best brightest people, right?
• 6:13
  When go to a medical school, you know, that
• 6:18
  is not the case in China.
• 6:22
  The, although, you know, we are seeing over the past year,
• 6:24
  this seems to be improving.
• 6:27
  You have more people get interested, you know,
• 6:29
  studying at the medical schools in top universities.
• 6:34
  But I think for those doctors
• 6:38
  who work at the, you know, the grassroots level, you know,
• 6:42
  even township health centers still, right?
• 6:46
  They, they, there are few people who trained,
• 6:51
  you know, receive formal training, right?
• 6:53
  To walk by in at that level, you know,
• 6:55
  even though we were assigned to those institutions,
• 6:58
  you know, still, right?
• 6:59
  That you would try your best
• 7:00
  to get into like a county hospital urban hospital
• 7:05
  because the pay is, you know, not good, is you have to,
• 7:10
  you know, rely on, you know, basic salary,
• 7:12
  which is really small, not attractive at all.
• 7:16
  But in those institutions, you know, you,
• 7:19
  if you rely on bonus, but the, you have to count on demand,
• 7:23
  but the demand for their service is really still small.
• 7:26
  People would still prefer to bypass institutions
• 7:29
  for urban health centers.
• 7:31
  - Oh, interesting. And that of course,
• 7:33
  also prompted another challenge in, in sort
• 7:36
  of the public health system, which was corruption, right?
• 7:39
  Because you had a system
• 7:40
  where the doctors weren't making any money,
• 7:43
  and so people would pay them extra to get seen,
• 7:46
  or they would overcharge for medicines.
• 7:49
  How, you know, effectively has, you know,
• 7:52
  Xi Jinping's ongoing campaign against corruption.
• 7:55
  Now, I think it must be in its 13th year.
• 7:58
  How effective has that been in the medical field?
• 8:01
  - Well, actually launched a, a,
• 8:03
  a anti-corruption campaign in the medical sector in
• 8:06
  2023, right after
• 8:08
  - Oh, late. Oh, late, okay.
• 8:10
  - I, yeah, the end of the, the COVID pandemic, you know, so
• 8:14
  this campaign so far has punished,
• 8:18
  I believe over 40,000 people,
• 8:21
  including like hospital managers, you know,
• 8:23
  the health officials by who are involved in procurement
• 8:28
  and bribes, you know, the,
• 8:31
  although that enforcement gaps remain the, you know,
• 8:36
  and that campaign continued that there is,
• 8:39
  the government has not indicate when this is going to end.
• 8:43
  I assume that if that all systematic, you know,
• 8:48
  problems, you know, sustained, there's no way to get rid
• 8:52
  of all this corruptions in this sector,
• 8:57
  - Right?
• 8:58
  I mean, I think we've seen that in many other sectors like
• 9:00
  the military where it seems to be a never ending
• 9:03
  - Candidate exactly.
• 9:04
  - Against corruption.
• 9:05
  So perhaps the same will unfortunately be true in
• 9:09
  the, in the medical sector.
• 9:12
  So let's talk a little bit about COVID
• 9:16
  and what you've seen post COVID in terms
• 9:19
  of the government's response.
• 9:21
  I have to say, I was speaking
• 9:23
  at a media round table the other day to a bunch
• 9:26
  of journalists, and one of them asked me whether I thought
• 9:29
  that China had been sufficiently punished
• 9:32
  or had sufficiently taken responsibility for COVID.
• 9:37
  I wonder how you would answer that question.
• 9:40
  I mean, do you think
• 9:42
  that China has been held sufficiently accountable
• 9:46
  for its role in COVI and its spread?
• 9:51
  - Well, this is the, well,
• 9:55
  interesting question, right?
• 9:57
  I, I think in a way, like in February, like early February
• 10:02
  after Lee Leon died, you know, the, by the way,
• 10:06
  what Leon was the whistle blower, right?
• 10:08
  That, you know, right? The share the information about the
• 10:12
  upcoming, you know, pandemic.
• 10:14
  And he was then punished, right?
• 10:17
  And then he died from the, the, the, the,
• 10:21
  the COVID himself, right?
• 10:23
  So at that time where you, you have seen, right,
• 10:26
  this is sort of like a China's by noble moment, you know,
• 10:30
  people really, you know,
• 10:33
  like demanding accountability, you know, the, you know,
• 10:37
  the flooded the internet, right?
• 10:39
  Showing their dysplasia and frustration.
• 10:43
  But I think, you know,
• 10:46
  and many people I thought that what leads
• 10:49
  to transformative political change, right?
• 10:52
  But, you know, instead was followed by,
• 10:56
  by the information, you know, cracked down by more
• 11:01
  tightened political control.
• 11:04
  And so, you know, this, the, one
• 11:09
  of the lessons we've learned that there all this major,
• 11:12
  you know, crisis not always followed by, you know,
• 11:16
  liberalization or transformative political change.
• 11:22
  China, it might be the opposite
• 11:26
  is true, you know, the, but,
• 11:29
  but I think, you know, it's really, I,
• 11:31
  I found it really fascinating when I was studying, right?
• 11:34
  That there's the, the, the state response, you know,
• 11:39
  to the, the, the pandemic.
• 11:42
  You know, it's just that kind of resilience.
• 11:46
  I found very, you could say
• 11:52
  impressive, you know, the, you know, if,
• 11:56
  if you consider right this, this, this swing
• 12:00
  between different political modes, right?
• 12:04
  This, I think this is the most striking thing, right?
• 12:07
  The, it's capacity for sudden
• 12:10
  dramatic pivotals without apparent
• 12:14
  legitimacy cost, right?
• 12:16
  If you think about the shifts we witnessed,
• 12:19
  right from initial inaction by December, 2019
• 12:24
  and early January, 2020 to the decisive lockdown of Wuhan
• 12:29
  in late January, 2020, you know, then the swing
• 12:33
  to overreaction with draconian zero COVID for three years,
• 12:37
  but then almost overnight by, in early December, 2022,
• 12:42
  there's a complete, there was a complete reversal, right?
• 12:45
  Sudden reopening with minimal preparation,
• 12:48
  and then COVID just disappeared from public
• 12:52
  discourse entirely.
• 12:53
  Like, you know, nothing had ever happened, right?
• 12:57
  So nobody mentioned it anymore, you know, so, you know, I,
• 13:01
  I find, you know, this, this, that kind
• 13:05
  of adaptability, or maybe resilience is the better word.
• 13:09
  It tells us something profound about how the system operates
• 13:13
  and maintains control.
• 13:15
  - So I think that's really interesting.
• 13:18
  Let me ask two follow-up questions on that.
• 13:20
  So first, what's your explanation for that?
• 13:25
  I think it was a December decision to just lift the controls
• 13:30
  and, you know, overnight, as you said, without thought
• 13:34
  to some kind of ensuring that people would be protected
• 13:37
  or even the elderly somehow, that, that, what,
• 13:40
  what do you think was behind the decision at
• 13:43
  that very moment?
• 13:46
  And then do you think
• 13:47
  that COVID is still an issue in people's heads?
• 13:51
  I mean, despite the fact that it's not talked about,
• 13:54
  is it still in the minds of, you know,
• 13:57
  people in Chinese society?
• 13:58
  I mean, presumably many people lost loved ones, you know,
• 14:03
  to COVID as they did here in the United States, of course,
• 14:07
  you know, is it something that's not talked about, but
• 14:09
  nonetheless still has lessons, you know,
• 14:13
  that people have taken away?
• 14:15
  And what would those lessons be?
• 14:18
  - Well, well, first of all, when we talk about the forces
• 14:22
  or factors that led to by the reopening, right?
• 14:26
  You know, certainly you could have, you know, the confluence
• 14:29
  of factors, but the influences by the,
• 14:32
  but you know, I think, you know, we still need, right,
• 14:35
  the more information, right?
• 14:37
  And what exactly happened, right?
• 14:39
  In Hai, you know, that made, you know, the,
• 14:42
  the government leader to make that decision
• 14:45
  to completely right, ditch the zero COVID.
• 14:50
  And we could just, you know, list some of the, you know,
• 14:55
  the factors we know, right?
• 14:56
  That, that, for example, by that time, by, you know,
• 14:59
  November, December, 2022, it was clear by
• 15:04
  that approach no longer sustainable right?
• 15:07
  Diminishing returns problems, very clear, right?
• 15:11
  And there was also by, according to
• 15:15
  the media reports by those reporters,
• 15:18
  was based in Beijing, you know, they also, you know,
• 15:22
  you know, talk about, found the information suggesting
• 15:26
  that government was seriously considering, right?
• 15:29
  The having a, you know, a new strategy, right.
• 15:33
  To replace by the zero COVID, you know?
• 15:37
  But you know, that still, I did not explain why,
• 15:41
  but the change come, came so sudden, right?
• 15:45
  With so minimal preparation.
• 15:47
  And it seems to be irrational, right?
• 15:49
  That the, so, you know, I, I,
• 15:53
  I think certainly why in that sense, the November, you know,
• 15:57
  2022, all this protest, right?
• 15:59
  In Beijing, Shanghai
• 16:01
  and Elsewell played a sort of like,
• 16:07
  you know, you know, sort of a transformative role here.
• 16:11
  You know, that when the leaders, you know,
• 16:14
  actually might solve, you know, from the, you know, the,
• 16:19
  the, the, the footage rest the, of this pro that, you know,
• 16:22
  the, the, the people were so frustrated, right?
• 16:26
  That even, right, that there's this sort of like the,
• 16:30
  the largest protest, you know, since 1989 in a way, right?
• 16:35
  And then there also, right, there's clear, right,
• 16:38
  the regime legitimacy implications there from the slogans.
• 16:42
  They were enchanting. The, I think, you know,
• 16:46
  they were really shocked in my understanding.
• 16:51
  And then I think the,
• 16:56
  maybe what this, again,
• 16:57
  we don't know the exact details there.
• 17:00
  Some talk about this like sort
• 17:03
  of revenge reopening, you know, that is that, well, this,
• 17:07
  this is what you want, right?
• 17:08
  You want reopening, you want ditch the zero COVID,
• 17:11
  you got it, right.
• 17:12
  You know? Wow. So it's that kind of,
• 17:19
  but we still, again, we don't have enough information
• 17:23
  to make sort of
• 17:26
  affirmative conclusion, you know, on the, the forces
• 17:30
  that lead to the change.
• 17:32
  - Yeah. And what about whether COVID still sits in the
• 17:36
  back of people's minds?
• 17:38
  I mean, you continue to go back
• 17:39
  and forth to China, you do your research, you, you know,
• 17:43
  have friends and, and family there.
• 17:45
  I mean, is this something that people still talk about?
• 17:48
  Is it raised is, you know, do people say, you know,
• 17:51
  should we be concerned about another pandemic of some sort?
• 17:55
  How does, how does it play out do you think,
• 17:57
  broadly within society?
• 18:00
  - Well, again, officially, right, both state media,
• 18:03
  social media, right, that you seldom heard, right?
• 18:08
  This term COVID, right?
• 18:09
  They have those, you know, other terms, you know, replacing
• 18:12
  that we call it like during the special times, during the,
• 18:17
  the mask era, right?
• 18:19
  This, the, you know, so clearly
• 18:23
  what this still like politically sensitive issue, taboo,
• 18:28
  aerial, you know, that discourage public discussion, right?
• 18:33
  The, the pandemic, you know,
• 18:37
  the state re the government response to it, you know?
• 18:40
  But, but you know, again, the problem is that you have
• 18:42
  that many people, right?
• 18:44
  Who died by the, during the COVID, especially by the, during
• 18:48
  that maybe 35 days
• 18:49
  after the December seven, December 7th,
• 18:54
  by 2022.
• 18:56
  You know, we, we, we have met people
• 18:59
  who lost their loved ones by the, during
• 19:02
  that period of time.
• 19:04
  You know, they were, you know,
• 19:06
  certainly not happy with that.
• 19:09
  You know, the, I I, I can tell, right?
• 19:13
  That that kind of emotion, right,
• 19:16
  that was suppressed, right?
• 19:18
  The, there, the one person just said, you know,
• 19:22
  I feel I need to do something,
• 19:23
  but in the meantime, I also feel like I'm numb.
• 19:26
  You know, this kind of numb, you know that
• 19:29
  in Chinese, right?
• 19:30
  It's so you don't get a clear sense
• 19:35
  what exactly people are thinking about.
• 19:37
  It's kind of very feeling that was difficult to describe.
• 19:43
  Maybe it will disappear over time, you know,
• 19:46
  but, you know, who knows if that become part
• 19:49
  of the collective memory of the society, you know, when
• 19:55
  the, you know, social political conditions change, you know,
• 19:59
  they might, you know, like become
• 20:04
  - Part of the process, - Right?
• 20:06
  It is just like, you know, they great leap forward, right?
• 20:09
  That, you know, they become important imp, impacters,
• 20:13
  you know, for the post more rural reform
• 20:17
  - Yeah.
• 20:18
  Reform. So that's really interesting.
• 20:20
  So you, you mentioned, you know,
• 20:22
  one change in Chinese policy in terms of reporting
• 20:28
  when you know you are sick
• 20:30
  or reporting on a potential disease
• 20:34
  that people will be rewarded in some way
• 20:38
  and not punished
• 20:40
  and not punished if it turns out not to be true.
• 20:43
  Are there other important changes that you think have come
• 20:47
  as a result of like, lessons learned from COVID
• 20:51
  by the Chinese government issues
• 20:53
  around greater transparency, public transparency,
• 20:57
  or, you know, different ways that health, you know,
• 21:00
  is being monitored in society?
• 21:03
  I assume those bracelets are no longer part of, you know,
• 21:07
  everyday life in China, is that right?
• 21:09
  The ones that we're tracking people's, you know, exposure
• 21:13
  to COVID, ostensibly,
• 21:16
  - Well, COVID is still there, right?
• 21:17
  And it's still spreading in, in, in the country, right?
• 21:21
  And across the globe, right?
• 21:24
  It's just that, you know,
• 21:26
  now it's no longer considered a public health
• 21:31
  threat, you know, a major public health threat, right?
• 21:34
  The, if you consider all this, the,
• 21:37
  the government actions on chicken Goya
• 21:39
  outbreak in Guangdong, right?
• 21:41
  That the sort of, that was remini reminiscent
• 21:46
  of the zero COVID approaches, right?
• 21:49
  To a localized outbreak,
• 21:53
  which is certainly much, you know, much less federal,
• 21:57
  you know, than COVID-19 in 2020.
• 22:04
  So we have seen by this, you know,
• 22:08
  this revised infectious disease law, you know,
• 22:12
  that seems to like the, well
• 22:15
  after, you know, finally by the, I thought that there was,
• 22:20
  you know, basically little public discussion, right?
• 22:24
  Right. What we did, right?
• 22:28
  What we did wrong, you know, during, you know, COVID-19,
• 22:31
  you know, how do we get, are we going to fix, right?
• 22:34
  That this loopholes might expose during the system, right?
• 22:38
  That, that, you know, the, it seems to be
• 22:42
  by, you don't see
• 22:46
  that kind of, right.
• 22:48
  The scale of,
• 22:51
  with this public health investments we saw
• 22:54
  after, you know, sas, right?
• 22:56
  In 2003, right
• 22:58
  after sars, there was, you know, you don't,
• 23:01
  there was not just a, like a, you know, transparency,
• 23:06
  you know, the sort of this
• 23:11
  investment in public health.
• 23:13
  In fact, if you visit any of the provincial by the CDC,
• 23:16
  by those state of art buildings, labs,
• 23:20
  they were almost all build, you know, in the wake
• 23:24
  of sars, you know, outbreak.
• 23:26
  But you don't see that kind of similar level
• 23:29
  of investment, right?
• 23:31
  In the post COVID era. That is my impression.
• 23:35
  And certainly what that has something to do with the local
• 23:39
  financial capacity,
• 23:41
  because right, we know the local government, right?
• 23:43
  The debt reading, you know, the
• 23:46
  and era economic slow down, right?
• 23:49
  That they really didn't have that much in interest, right?
• 23:55
  Incentive right. To invest in public health, you know.
• 24:00
  But at the central level, we have seen like this, some
• 24:05
  of the, like the anti graphic campaigns, you know, launch
• 24:09
  of the healthy China, you know, 20,
• 24:12
  30 more state intervention, you know,
• 24:15
  like managing people's weight.
• 24:17
  But that, that does seems, doesn't seem to have anything
• 24:21
  with like a future pandemic preparedness, you know,
• 24:25
  and response.
• 24:27
  - So what, what do you, when you say
• 24:28
  that the government is managing people's weight,
• 24:31
  they're not, they're not going in there like the family
• 24:33
  planning offices, are they?
• 24:35
  And actually weighing people and, and checking on them.
• 24:38
  - No, no, it's not like that.
• 24:40
  Well, that's the, but,
• 24:42
  but it, it sort of still reminds me this sort
• 24:45
  of like a recurring, right?
• 24:47
  This the, is the, the, this biopower, right?
• 24:51
  The, you have this sort of more,
• 24:55
  it's like a form, you know, as a fail approach, right?
• 25:00
  In dealing with sort of individual lifestyle diseases,
• 25:04
  you know, like, you know, overweight, right?
• 25:08
  The not diseases risk factors, right?
• 25:12
  Or this is like obesity.
• 25:15
  The, you now you see the government is taking action, right?
• 25:19
  In those areas, you know, that clearly show, you know,
• 25:23
  that the government, you know, wants to do more, right?
• 25:29
  In this field.
• 25:30
  But it also represents sort of like a subtle, right, the
• 25:35
  state penetration right to people's lives,
• 25:40
  but in order to achieve
• 25:42
  by this macro health objectives. Right?
• 25:46
  - I see. So, so more information campaigns and sort of
• 25:51
  - Yeah, health, wellness, education, you know, the,
• 25:57
  the campaigns, you know, maybe also provide some
• 26:01
  incentives for people to sort of,
• 26:06
  you know, exercise constrained, right?
• 26:09
  In the, their diet habits, you know, that we are seeing
• 26:13
  that there's people validating in China more concerned
• 26:16
  by their weight, this how, you know, this, like this,
• 26:20
  you know, the weight reduction by those, the camps become
• 26:25
  so, and drugs become so popular now in China.
• 26:28
  - Interesting. Interesting. Okay.
• 26:30
  But not, but not in terms
• 26:31
  of the government actually taking individuals and,
• 26:36
  and subjecting them to sort of pressure, right?
• 26:40
  It's not at that level. It's a
• 26:41
  - Broader, not that kind of, - Yeah.
• 26:45
  - The, the, the, - It hasn't
• 26:47
  - Gone that zero COVID type of campaign.
• 26:49
  - Okay. It hasn't, it hasn't gone, it hasn't gone that far.
• 26:51
  That's, that's a relief, I have to say.
• 26:54
  So let me, let me ask you, I wanna,
• 26:56
  I wanna talk more about China's role on the global stage,
• 26:59
  but let me just take a beat
• 27:00
  and ask you how you decided to study this field
• 27:04
  of public health.
• 27:05
  I mean, I think you are, you know, certainly one of few
• 27:09
  in the United States and in the world.
• 27:10
  You are one of the top, you know,
• 27:14
  experts in this space.
• 27:16
  I mean, how did you decide
• 27:18
  that this was something you wanted to pursue?
• 27:21
  - Well, thank you, Liz. I'll take this the a, a compliment,
• 27:26
  well, why I got hooked on global health and China.
• 27:34
  Let me, well, certainly because I'm a Chinese, right?
• 27:38
  That, that naturally, when you came to this country,
• 27:41
  you wanted to study your country, there's certain right
• 27:45
  comparative advantages like language or cultural, right?
• 27:49
  But, but let me take you through this journey, right?
• 27:52
  I started as a China specialist, right?
• 27:56
  Diving deep into its policies
• 27:59
  and institutions, you know, during my graduate study at
• 28:05
  the U of Chicago.
• 28:07
  So my dissertation focused on Chinese health politics in the
• 28:12
  post more era, right?
• 28:14
  Essentially look at, you know, how the state, you know,
• 28:17
  tackled health issues
• 28:20
  after those massive, you know,
• 28:22
  liberal reforms kicked off, right?
• 28:24
  So that was my first love really, you know, understanding
• 28:28
  how China's political institutions shaped
• 28:31
  its health policies by, in the mal era.
• 28:35
  But when I graduated in 2000,
• 28:38
  global health was just starting to bubble up
• 28:41
  as a field, right?
• 28:42
  That it was not a huge field.
• 28:44
  It was like almost like everybody knows everybody community,
• 28:50
  but it was this passionate community
• 28:54
  by talking about health as a global issue,
• 28:57
  not just the local one.
• 28:59
  And also they talk about it
• 29:01
  as a national international security challenge,
• 29:04
  not just a pure public health concern.
• 29:07
  So I was intrigued, right?
• 29:09
  It feel like, you know, the perfect bridge, right,
• 29:12
  between my China expertise and the bigger, right.
• 29:15
  The award problems, right?
• 29:18
  You know, then, you know, we have sars, right?
• 29:20
  That hit in 2003,
• 29:22
  and that was a wake up call in highlight, right?
• 29:25
  The health as a high politics issue, right?
• 29:29
  So the outbreak showed
• 29:30
  how faster my health crisis could spew across borders,
• 29:35
  and it sort of, you know,
• 29:37
  cemented my interesting global health governance
• 29:41
  and global health security, you know,
• 29:42
  and, you know, that is Wayne, you know, sitting hall
• 29:46
  by the University School of Diplomacy came calling, right?
• 29:49
  That they hired me as a global health person, right?
• 29:53
  To build their global health program.
• 29:55
  You know, that was actually one of the first to tie health
• 29:59
  to security and foreign policy in the professional school
• 30:02
  of international affairs.
• 30:04
  And that to me was a dream gig, right?
• 30:06
  To shape something new and later, right?
• 30:10
  I'm fortunate, I was fortunate to become affiliated
• 30:13
  with the Council on Foreign Relations, you know,
• 30:16
  as a senior fellow for global health.
• 30:19
  That gave me a bigger platform to blend my China knowledge
• 30:23
  with global health challenges.
• 30:25
  And also I was really, you know, lucky,
• 30:29
  but I was able to work with great minds,
• 30:32
  great colleagues like you, right?
• 30:34
  On the China side and, you know, Laurie Garrett
• 30:38
  and letter tomboy, you on the global health side, you know,
• 30:42
  from there, by this is being a wide ride, you know,
• 30:46
  writing books right?
• 30:48
  On Chinese health politics test testifying to Congress
• 30:51
  and diving into everything from China's environmental health
• 30:54
  crisis to its COVID response by, so it's,
• 30:58
  it's all about connecting the dots, you know,
• 31:01
  between Chinese politics, Chinese policies,
• 31:04
  and the world, the, I mean, the global health issues.
• 31:09
  - Yeah. I mean, I, I think, you know,
• 31:11
  it's also just you become such a, such an incredible blend
• 31:14
  of both, you know, scholarship, right?
• 31:16
  As you said, the, the research that you do on the issues,
• 31:20
  which is, you know, rigorous research,
• 31:23
  but at the same time, there's an ability for you
• 31:25
  to contribute to the debates
• 31:28
  and sort of policies that affect, you know, millions, tens
• 31:32
  of millions of people globally by sharing your knowledge
• 31:35
  and your ideas.
• 31:36
  So it's, it's both, it's like a, a half academic
• 31:39
  and not activist exactly,
• 31:41
  but an element, right, of activism, of being able
• 31:43
  to take your knowledge and really make it worth something.
• 31:47
  I think on the, on the larger global stage, it's,
• 31:51
  I think it's terrific.
• 31:53
  So, okay, so a great, a great career trajectory
• 31:57
  that's led you to, I think, an important place.
• 32:01
  So let's revert now.
• 32:02
  Let me just touch on a couple of of final issues.
• 32:06
  You know, China, despite, you know, the role
• 32:10
  that it played in COVID as the originator,
• 32:13
  despite the fact that it was not as transparent
• 32:17
  as should have been, despite the fact
• 32:19
  that it used its control over personal protective equipment
• 32:23
  in sometimes coercive ways to try to get countries,
• 32:27
  you know, not to say anything bad about it
• 32:29
  or, you know, use it for, for other
• 32:32
  reasons has become an important player in the global public
• 32:37
  health diplomacy space, I think through
• 32:42
  its health, silk Road, for example.
• 32:44
  Talk a little bit about, and,
• 32:46
  and I will say, you know, one
• 32:47
  of the things I've found interesting just in some
• 32:49
  of my own reading, is that it does seem
• 32:51
  as though many countries emerging
• 32:54
  and middle income economies don't look at China
• 32:59
  as bearing the same kind of responsibility
• 33:01
  that many European and advanced economies do.
• 33:04
  They have a different perception of the role
• 33:07
  that China played in COVID often
• 33:08
  because China was providing these countries with vaccines
• 33:13
  when they couldn't get them,
• 33:15
  for example, from the United States.
• 33:16
  And notwithstanding the fact that those vaccines were not
• 33:19
  as good as, you know, the uss
• 33:23
  or, or other countries.
• 33:24
  Nonetheless, they were very appreciative of the fact
• 33:28
  that China was selling them.
• 33:29
  So talk a little bit about how the role
• 33:32
  that China's playing on the global stage in terms of health
• 33:37
  and health diplomacy, what its ambitions are, do you think,
• 33:41
  and then I wanna finish
• 33:42
  and talk a little bit about the US China sort of
• 33:47
  cooperation or competition or how you see that emerging.
• 33:50
  But first, let's talk about
• 33:52
  how you see China playing on the global stage.
• 33:55
  - Well, if you look at this, it's the response
• 33:59
  by toward the, the, the global, the,
• 34:02
  the COVID-19 pandemic, right?
• 34:04
  The, the people
• 34:09
  often, you know, mentioned, right, this,
• 34:12
  the vaccine diplomacy, right?
• 34:13
  When I was visiting southeast Asian countries, you know,
• 34:18
  the meeting with the, the, the scholars,
• 34:22
  the government officials there,
• 34:24
  but they all mentioned, right, that, that, you know, in the,
• 34:30
  at the time in the way,
• 34:32
  but the western countries, including United States,
• 34:35
  were practicing the, their vaccine nationalism, right?
• 34:39
  Stockpiling the vaccines for their own population, right?
• 34:43
  It was China, right? Who that
• 34:45
  provided the battery needed the vaccines, right?
• 34:50
  Even though by, you might say in terms of the efficacy
• 34:53
  by the, maybe safety not
• 34:58
  as good by as like the MI vaccines,
• 35:02
  although that's debatable to some people, the,
• 35:06
  you know, still, right?
• 35:07
  The China was the first right
• 35:09
  to provide those desperate needed the medical supplies by
• 35:14
  not just the vaccines, by talking about the masks,
• 35:17
  ventilators, you know, so this is, you know, sort
• 35:20
  of broadly defined, the vaccine diplomacy,
• 35:23
  you might also call it, you know,
• 35:25
  the health diplomacy, right?
• 35:26
  The President Xi pledged the Chinese vaccine would be a
• 35:30
  global public good, you know, that position China
• 35:33
  as a leader, right?
• 35:35
  In the global response.
• 35:37
  And the countries did appreciate, you know, what
• 35:41
  China was doing, right?
• 35:46
  You know, survey data showed
• 35:47
  that those initial gains, right?
• 35:49
  That those 56% of the surveyed countries, the,
• 35:53
  the journalists, right, the, the
• 35:56
  observed more positive media coverage
• 35:58
  of China following the outbreak.
• 36:00
  You, and in Southeast Asia, you know, China was perceived
• 36:05
  as the most generous provider of the COVID
• 36:10
  assistance, you know,
• 36:11
  but those gains, you know, proved fragile
• 36:15
  and fleeting, right?
• 36:16
  The, especially with the rapid spread
• 36:20
  of this highly transmissible, you know,
• 36:22
  delta having omicron variants, you know,
• 36:25
  we saw actually a steep drop in the global delivery
• 36:28
  of the Chinese vaccines.
• 36:30
  You know, they since four, 2021, right?
• 36:33
  Then the zero COVID policy initially was marketed as a proof
• 36:38
  of the, the, the effectiveness of the China's solution by
• 36:42
  to the global pandemic, essentially, you know,
• 36:45
  become a TROs, you know, when,
• 36:48
  you know China was locking down Shanghai when spring 2022,
• 36:52
  while the world moved on, I
• 36:57
  this only projected the Brutalness not strength, you know?
• 37:00
  And then, so by 20 22, 20 23, much
• 37:05
  of that good will had evaporated, right?
• 37:08
  The, the pure global attitude survey clearly showed by
• 37:12
  that even after all this efforts, by only 28%
• 37:16
  of the respondents across 24 countries
• 37:19
  say they had the favorable view
• 37:21
  of China in spring 23, right?
• 37:24
  Compared to 59% for the United States.
• 37:28
  You know, but if you look at the, the,
• 37:29
  the post COVID era, right?
• 37:31
  China's health diplomacy, you know, the,
• 37:34
  they have pivoted from emergency response
• 37:37
  to institutionalized health engagement,
• 37:41
  and they are playing the long games strategically.
• 37:44
  They've pledged 500 million to the WHO,
• 37:48
  the World Health Organization
• 37:49
  after, you know, Trump,
• 37:51
  president Trump announced the withdrawal from the
• 37:54
  International Health Organization.
• 37:56
  They have increased health related development assistance
• 37:59
  to lower and middle income countries.
• 38:01
  And where we, of course, the Be
• 38:03
  and Road Health Sea Road was a key framework, right?
• 38:07
  Which allowed China continue to invest in hospitals,
• 38:11
  pharmaceutical production facilities,
• 38:14
  public health capacity building across Africa,
• 38:17
  Southeast Asia, Latin America.
• 38:20
  Well, these are tangible, visible projects,
• 38:22
  but that creates soft power, right?
• 38:25
  Dependency in a way simultaneously.
• 38:29
  So I think, you know, the, you know,
• 38:34
  president Trump's second term is absolutely critical, right?
• 38:38
  To the strategist effectiveness, right?
• 38:41
  Because it essentially might allow China
• 38:46
  to sort of portray itself
• 38:51
  as a defend of multilateralism, you know,
• 38:54
  global health governance, you know,
• 38:56
  China becomes the go-to partner
• 38:58
  for countries dependent on foreign aid programs, you know,
• 39:02
  and that essentially, right,
• 39:06
  the changes the competitive dynamic fundamentally, right?
• 39:10
  So, you know, China doesn't have to significantly,
• 39:14
  dramatically increase this health related development
• 39:17
  systems to fill the void, you know, left
• 39:20
  by the United States, right?
• 39:22
  There just needs to be present
• 39:24
  and why America is absent, right?
• 39:26
  That's a much lower bar, right?
• 39:29
  In this competition for global health leadership.
• 39:33
  And so, you know,
• 39:38
  you know, I think the, the, the,
• 39:42
  you could say
• 39:43
  by the current administration isn't just an opportunity
• 39:46
  for China, it's policy, not just a present opportunity
• 39:49
  for trying, it becomes a force multiply, right?
• 39:53
  Because Beijing doesn't have
• 39:54
  to be particularly good at right health diplomacy
• 39:58
  or significantly
• 40:00
  or dramatically increase health related
• 40:02
  development assistance.
• 40:04
  They just have to be there, you know, when we are not,
• 40:07
  you know, I think that should worry the United States
• 40:10
  because leadership in global health governance isn't just
• 40:13
  about altruism,
• 40:15
  it's about influence the standard setting, right?
• 40:19
  Agenda setting and shaping, right.
• 40:22
  The rules of games for the next health crisis.
• 40:25
  So if we see that space,
• 40:28
  we are gonna find it very difficult to reclaim,
• 40:31
  - Right?
• 40:32
  Yeah, no, I, you're making a point. I completely agree.
• 40:34
  And, and I, I think about this more broadly in terms
• 40:37
  of the development assistance
• 40:39
  and the shuttering of U-S-A-I-D that, you know, people say,
• 40:43
  well, China's gonna fill the vacuum.
• 40:44
  I said, it's not gonna fill the vacuum,
• 40:46
  it's gonna do just enough.
• 40:48
  You know? Exactly. To, because we're gone.
• 40:50
  So it doesn't need, exactly as you said,
• 40:52
  it doesn't need to do much.
• 40:53
  It can go and, and support the rural reading program in
• 40:57
  Cambodia for a million dollars,
• 40:59
  and it's going to receive all sorts of, you know, accolades.
• 41:03
  Just Exactly. Exactly. So I, I think we're,
• 41:06
  we're very much on, on the same page there.
• 41:09
  And I think the other aspect,
• 41:11
  and I'm, I'm curious whether you think this is, is accurate,
• 41:14
  is that it also gives China all
• 41:16
  of this health diplomacy gives China the opportunity
• 41:18
  to promote its traditional Chinese medicine,
• 41:21
  Chinese made medical devices.
• 41:23
  It becomes a, an economic play as well,
• 41:25
  an export mechanism, right?
• 41:28
  As you're saying a force multiplier,
• 41:29
  but it, it also multiplies oppor other kinds
• 41:32
  of opportunities for China.
• 41:34
  When we pull out, I think it really enables them
• 41:38
  to gain ground in other areas where the United States,
• 41:41
  you know, may have also had advantages
• 41:44
  because of our aid, you know, linking to, you know,
• 41:47
  US made medical devices or Western made medical devices.
• 41:50
  I think it's another Entry point for China.
• 41:55
  Do you, do you agree with that or, or
• 41:57
  - Oh yeah, absolutely, right.
• 41:58
  That it is they, because if you look at by this,
• 42:01
  the COVID diplomacy where when we are, they are
• 42:05
  actually exporting, right?
• 42:06
  Their vaccines masks ventilators, right?
• 42:09
  It's officially claim it's as a global public good,
• 42:13
  but it is not right if with the,
• 42:17
  we believe that global public good means it's not excludable
• 42:21
  by, if it's like, you know, joining is
• 42:25
  of supply, right?
• 42:27
  That they, you know, anything but global public good, right?
• 42:30
  Is actually, look, the vaccines China shift overseas by
• 42:36
  85% of them actually for commercial
• 42:39
  or sale, you know, the, right.
• 42:41
  So it's, you know, but by,
• 42:43
  but by doing so, they're not just, you know, you know,
• 42:46
  expanding its geopolitical influence
• 42:49
  and not just projecting soft power,
• 42:51
  but also expand it by the commercial, right.
• 42:55
  The influence, right,
• 42:57
  - Right.
• 42:58
  Commercial influence and,
• 42:59
  and opportunities for Chinese companies. Right?
• 43:01
  - Right. - So, so one last question.
• 43:03
  I think, you know, the health, health space,
• 43:05
  like the environment, which you know, I've worked on
• 43:08
  for many years, is always sort of promoted as an area
• 43:12
  for good US China cooperation, right?
• 43:15
  Everybody says, well, we can cooperate
• 43:16
  and health and the environment.
• 43:18
  So in the current context, what do you see there?
• 43:22
  Do you see any possibility
• 43:24
  for cooperation in particular given what's going on in the
• 43:27
  health space here in the United States?
• 43:30
  I would imagine that opportunities are much,
• 43:33
  much diminished, but,
• 43:34
  but maybe things are going on that, that I don't know about.
• 43:38
  - Well, well, Susan, well,
• 43:40
  I think this is a great question, right?
• 43:42
  That they are, you know, many people when we talk about,
• 43:45
  you know, US China corporation, you know, they,
• 43:50
  this is just naive, right? Given the
• 43:53
  - Throwaway a throwaway sort of health environment, right?
• 43:57
  - Yeah. Given the geopolitical tensions, given the lack
• 44:00
  of trust, you know, and,
• 44:02
  and well, this, one of the specific, right?
• 44:06
  The, the hurdles is with that COVID-19 origins, right?
• 44:09
  This, this controversy, right?
• 44:12
  Basically, many lawmakers heal, right?
• 44:15
  That they say, well, you know
• 44:17
  that if you want the corporate US to cooperate
• 44:20
  with China health first, let's fix this problem first.
• 44:25
  If we, we can't even fix this,
• 44:26
  they forget about any corporation, right?
• 44:29
  So that is becoming one of the biggest hurdles, you know,
• 44:33
  for US China Health Corporation. But, but
• 44:37
  - I still just so I'm so yen, just so I'm clear by the,
• 44:40
  the hurdle is the fact that China won't
• 44:44
  acknowledge the actual origin of the virus,
• 44:48
  or what's the hurdle exactly?
• 44:50
  - Well, the hurdle is basically, this is all
• 44:52
  what the WHO has been demanding.
• 44:54
  I mean, the way this also has solid, the w o's relationship
• 44:57
  with China and the Dr.
• 45:00
  Teros, you know, since
• 45:02
  July, 2021, you know,
• 45:05
  WHO has been requesting China to be trans,
• 45:09
  to be cooperative, right?
• 45:11
  In the second stage of the,
• 45:14
  the investigation among the COVID nine, the origins
• 45:18
  of COVID-19,
• 45:19
  but the first, right, the stage was sort
• 45:22
  of like a WHO China joint study conducted in the spring
• 45:25
  of 2021.
• 45:27
  You know, that they launched a, a, a sort of a, a,
• 45:31
  a report in, in end of March, you know, basically accepted,
• 45:35
  you know, all the explanations provided by the Chinese side.
• 45:40
  So, you know, that, you know, sort of actually damaged to
• 45:43
  by the reputation, the credibility in a way of the WHO
• 45:48
  and the us right?
• 45:50
  And then the, under the Trump 1.0, right?
• 45:54
  They essentially also, I believe
• 45:56
  that's basically a whitewashed report, right?
• 46:00
  The, the want to China to be more forthcoming,
• 46:05
  to be more transparent, right?
• 46:07
  To be more cooperative, right?
• 46:11
  In the, the, the original survey,
• 46:14
  but, you know, China, sort of the,
• 46:18
  the narrative here is that, you know, a right,
• 46:22
  that the, the pandemic
• 46:25
  or the outbreak started in Wuhan
• 46:28
  doesn't necessarily mean China is the origin point,
• 46:31
  was the origin point of the pandemic.
• 46:34
  And second, right, that if, you know, you,
• 46:38
  you believe that the lab leaks the problem
• 46:42
  that caused the pandemic.
• 46:43
  Let's also investigate for Dietrich, you know,
• 46:46
  your military labs here in the us you know, the,
• 46:50
  so, you know, indicating that US could be a, a,
• 46:53
  a origin point of the, the pandemic, right?
• 46:57
  So you have that kind
• 46:59
  of finger pointing right over the origin of the pandemic.
• 47:02
  That is becoming a, one of the biggest hurdles, you know,
• 47:05
  for US China Health Corporation.
• 47:08
  - Yeah. So no, no real prospect,
• 47:11
  I think in the immediate future
• 47:13
  for some breakthrough on health
• 47:15
  cooperation. Is that fair to say?
• 47:17
  - Right. Well, you feel, you know, actually it's,
• 47:20
  in a way it's even worse by the,
• 47:22
  so beginning 2020, right?
• 47:25
  The since the,
• 47:31
  the early spring that year, right?
• 47:33
  And until
• 47:36
  2023 last year,
• 47:40
  24 last year, there was no high level
• 47:46
  dialogue, you know, public health issues.
• 47:50
  There was no, of course,
• 47:52
  there was no serious discussion on corporation, right?
• 47:55
  During the pandemic, but even
• 47:56
  after the pandemic was over, right?
• 47:59
  That we have, you know, that that accepted
• 48:02
  for last year, right?
• 48:03
  That there was a Chinese vice health minister visiting
• 48:06
  Washington, you know, meeting his counterpart.
• 48:10
  At HHS,
• 48:11
  we have essentially no high level health dialogue, you know,
• 48:16
  and even the, the, at the working level, you know, now
• 48:20
  with under the new administration, our diplomats,
• 48:24
  our health attach, well,
• 48:26
  actually there's no formal health attach.
• 48:29
  They are now is acting, they were very,
• 48:33
  they're very cautious in terms
• 48:35
  of reaching out their counterparts in China.
• 48:37
  That is very unusual, I would say,
• 48:41
  I would say abnormal, right?
• 48:43
  And this shouldn't be the case, you know, as the,
• 48:46
  when I was in Beijing,
• 48:47
  a Chinese diplomacy professor at the leading top university
• 48:52
  in China said, if there is no cooperation of health,
• 48:56
  how could you expect the effective corporation
• 48:58
  in other areas?
• 48:59
  It just to shows that dire state of
• 49:03
  US China relations, unfortunately.
• 49:06
  - Yeah, no, i, I, I tend to agree with you,
• 49:08
  and I will say, I think even it was up
• 49:10
  until like health diplomacy was up until the, you know,
• 49:13
  second to last year, last year of the Biden administration,
• 49:16
  before we had real talks on commercial negotiations,
• 49:20
  on military negotiations, the only thing
• 49:22
  that was going on was really the climate change discussions.
• 49:26
  And that was very much a sort of a, a personal, you know,
• 49:31
  kind of love affair for, you know,
• 49:34
  former Secretary Kerry who was so committed
• 49:37
  to climate change and had the personal
• 49:39
  relationship with Shia Genis.
• 49:41
  So yeah.
• 49:42
  - And unfortunately, but even that right there,
• 49:44
  this walking group now as the, i I think it is that the
• 49:49
  corporation has also stalled, right? Under the numerous,
• 49:52
  - Yeah, well, I'm, I'm sure since we've pulled out
• 49:54
  of the Paris Climate accord,
• 49:56
  that there's not gonna be much cooperation at the national
• 49:59
  level on, on climate change.
• 50:01
  Okay, last quick, three questions, just boom, boom, boom.
• 50:04
  So first question, what book would you recommend
• 50:09
  to our viewers book
• 50:11
  or article on China
• 50:13
  that you think is really just excellent and people should read?
• 50:17
  - Well, I would recommend, you know, a, a book by won ds,
• 50:22
  the title, the Breakneck, you know, that's
• 50:24
  to have this interesting comparison, you know, between the,
• 50:28
  the governance in the US and China, right?
• 50:30
  The, the, well, the, well China, according to the authors,
• 50:34
  sort of managed by the engineers, the US governed
• 50:39
  by lawyers, and they, they believe, you know, that sort
• 50:42
  of shaped the different governance model
• 50:44
  that explain why right now, you know,
• 50:47
  China is quickly catching up in this key, right,
• 50:50
  the high tech areas by the AI biotech, right?
• 50:54
  The robotics, you name it, of course for the author want
• 50:59
  to claim it's not the chairman leader. No, no,
• 51:02
  - No, no.
• 51:03
  And his name is, it's his English name.
• 51:04
  Just to be clear, is Dan Wong. So you can Dan Wong.
• 51:08
  So it's a little different, but Right.
• 51:09
  So Dan Wong, yes, I agree.
• 51:11
  It's a great book and I think it made it's New York Times
• 51:14
  bestseller and I reviewed it for foreign affairs,
• 51:17
  I think in the upcoming issue.
• 51:18
  And it's really, I agree with you.
• 51:19
  It's a great, it's a terrific, terrific read. Okay.
• 51:23
  What issue in China, let's put aside public health though.
• 51:26
  What issue about China
• 51:28
  or in China do you think Americans don't really understand
• 51:31
  or need to know more about?
• 51:32
  What, what do you know
• 51:34
  that other people don't know that they should?
• 51:37
  - Well, I think what set aside public health,
• 51:41
  I think it was, I, I'm still sort of puzzled, you know,
• 51:46
  by these, you know, sort of almost like over the past,
• 51:50
  just a couple of years you've seen, right,
• 51:53
  the China quickly catching up, right?
• 51:56
  In the high tech area, right?
• 51:59
  The, well, biotech is a very good example, right?
• 52:02
  Just years ago, we are still,
• 52:04
  when we talk about China's innovation capability,
• 52:07
  which says, well, they're making good progress,
• 52:09
  but it's going to be a long way before they can catch up.
• 52:12
  But now guess what? Why?
• 52:14
  They're not just catching up,
• 52:15
  but in some areas they become,
• 52:18
  they're becoming a leader, right?
• 52:20
  And in a way, this is creating sort of the, another kind
• 52:25
  of dependence, you know, in addition to the APIs,
• 52:28
  active pharmaceutical ingredients, key starting materials,
• 52:32
  but this innovative drugs and,
• 52:34
  and biosimilar molecules, you know, they are, you know, like
• 52:39
  we are becoming increasingly dependent upon them.
• 52:43
  If you look at by the, this, the number of deals by the o of
• 52:48
  the, of the licensing, right?
• 52:50
  The, the, with the sign with the Chinese companies,
• 52:56
  you know, this is, I found it very, you know, interesting,
• 53:00
  especially if you think about this, you know, this era
• 53:04
  of economic slow down, right?
• 53:07
  Well, you know, unemployment rate of the use is
• 53:09
  so high, right?
• 53:10
  That the consumption level is low.
• 53:13
  You know, the real industry is like all probably seems the
• 53:20
  almost, you know, all like a is
• 53:24
  in such a bad shape, you know, how could that happen, right?
• 53:28
  - Yeah. No, I think that's, that's great.
• 53:29
  And actually I'll do a little plug for our, our, our next
• 53:34
  podcast, which is gonna be with Dr.
• 53:37
  Ch Lee, who is a well-known geneticist
• 53:43
  and works on biotech issues and, and on cancer drugs
• 53:48
  and goes between China and the United States.
• 53:50
  And he's gonna talk to us exactly about innovation
• 53:54
  and science and technology,
• 53:55
  particularly in the biotech field.
• 53:57
  So thank you, thank you for that leading Yanzhong.
• 53:59
  But one last question for you.
• 54:01
  If you had a recommendation
• 54:03
  for the Trump administration right now,
• 54:06
  either thinking in terms of US China competition
• 54:09
  or cooperation, what, what would it be?
• 54:12
  - Well, I, I would say princip support engagement.
• 54:16
  I was, you know,
• 54:18
  it is interesting when you ask this question, just
• 54:21
  finish this, the part of the, at tribute to our
• 54:25
  old colleague Jerry Cohen, right?
• 54:28
  He was the person, right?
• 54:30
  That I think, you know,
• 54:32
  if there's something I remember the most, in the most,
• 54:35
  it was this, I, right?
• 54:37
  He's the commitment to, you know, rule of law
• 54:41
  and human rights.
• 54:43
  So he is the principled person,
• 54:45
  but I also had this flexibility, right?
• 54:48
  That in dealing with people with opposed views, right?
• 54:52
  So that is how he was admired, respected in both sides
• 54:56
  of the Taiwan Street, you know, so, you know, I think,
• 55:00
  you know, he, as I I I said in the tribute, you know, that
• 55:05
  this principled engagement just to show, you know,
• 55:09
  that when we are dealing with, well sort of
• 55:12
  give a example, right?
• 55:13
  This, the suggesting that when we are dealing
• 55:15
  with like a geopolitical right rival like China, even,
• 55:20
  we disagreed upon many things.
• 55:23
  I think engagement
• 55:25
  and even cooperation remains
• 55:29
  possible and vital.
• 55:33
  - And that is a great note to end on.
• 55:36
  And, and thank you for the reminder
• 55:38
  of our truly wonderful colleague Jerry Cohen,
• 55:41
  who passed away just recently, you know,
• 55:44
  towering figure in the field of China, legal studies,
• 55:49
  someone who spanned both, you know, the corporate work,
• 55:52
  government work, and of course was renowned
• 55:54
  for his work on Chinese human rights issues as well.
• 55:58
  So Yan Jang, thank you so much for a really rich discussion.
• 56:02
  I expect no less from you from one of the best
• 56:06
  and top figures in the field,
• 56:09
  so I appreciate your taking the time to speak with us.
• 56:12
  - Thank you, Liz. - If you enjoyed today's podcast
• 56:15
  and would like to hear more informed discussion about China,
• 56:19
  please subscribe to the Hoover YouTube channel
• 56:21
  or your favorite podcast platform.