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Breaking the Spell of Separation: A Celtic Shaman's Guide to Romancing Uncertainty · Romancing the Threshold

0:27
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Romancing the Threshold.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm Vanessa Couto, and oh, do I have a conversation for you today.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Picture this.
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SPEAKER_00: It's Samhain, the Celtic New Year.
0:39
As darkness falls,
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the young people of the village slip out into the night.
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They're stealing gates,
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lifting them right off their hinges,
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removing fences between properties.
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SPEAKER_00: This isn't mischief.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: This is sacred ritual,
0:55
SPEAKER_00: opening the boundaries between worlds,
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SPEAKER_00: making way for the ancestors to pass through.
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SPEAKER_00: That image kept dancing through my entire conversation with Jane Burns,
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Celtic shaman and someone whose work I've been blessed to know
1:09
personally.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: What emerged was a teaching I've been circling for years,
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SPEAKER_00: that maybe we've got this whole spiritual thing backwards.
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SPEAKER_00: We've been treating the other world like a cosmic shopping mall,
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SPEAKER_00: the ancestors like customer service,
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SPEAKER_00: and the helping spirits like the delivery drivers for our manifestations.
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SPEAKER_00: But what if it's actually a living relationship?
1:32
SPEAKER_00: What if they are as invested in us as we are in needing them?
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SPEAKER_00: Jane brought such richness to this idea.
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She spoke about how ancestors literally depend on us to heal
1:45
what they couldn't
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SPEAKER_00: complete in life.
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SPEAKER_00: How the Fae want collaboration, not worship.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: How threshold isn't something to survive,
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SPEAKER_00: but the exact place where magic pools,
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which is why the Celts stood with one foot in the water and one
2:03
on shore at dawn on
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SPEAKER_00: the eve of festivals,
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SPEAKER_00: stacking these in-between moments like they were gathering power.
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SPEAKER_00: This conversation felt like coming home to something I've always known,
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SPEAKER_00: but needed to hear spoken aloud.
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SPEAKER_00: So settle in,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe light a candle for the ancestors,
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and let's explore what happens when we stop asking the spirits
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for help and start
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SPEAKER_00: asking what we are building together.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So Jane, how are you doing?
2:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing very well.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing, Vanessa?
2:39
SPEAKER_00: I am good.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: You know,
2:42
SPEAKER_00: before we just started recording,
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we were talking a little bit about this time of the year
2:48
already being the
2:49
SPEAKER_00: threshold.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: So let's just dive right in.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's cross into this threshold,
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because one of the reasons I was really inspired to invite you
2:59
to the podcast is
3:00
SPEAKER_00: not only have I been really blessed to know your work,
3:04
SPEAKER_00: to have worked with you,
3:05
SPEAKER_00: to have seen some of your classes,
3:09
SPEAKER_00: read the previous book,
3:11
SPEAKER_00: haven't read the second book yet.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: But so I've been immersed a little bit in your work.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate that.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: So when I was thinking about thresholds,
3:20
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
3:21
SPEAKER_00: oh,
3:21
SPEAKER_00: of course,
3:23
SPEAKER_00: on my wish list of guests got to be Jane.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: And so thank you for coming on the podcast.
3:29
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for saying that.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: That's a very nice introduction.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: So just the word threshold itself,
3:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: with your work that you do,
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tell us a little bit about what you do and how you see the
3:43
experience of threshold
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SPEAKER_00: for yourself and your clients.
3:47
SPEAKER_03: In my work as a shamanic practitioner,
3:49
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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SPEAKER_03: that's something that collectively speaking,
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SPEAKER_03: I see all the time.
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SPEAKER_03: People coming when they're on a threshold, you know, and I mean,
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SPEAKER_03: I think we call it,
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SPEAKER_03: or we might call it,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: midlife crisis or,
4:02
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: just a break in the action,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: when things start turning around and everything that you've known,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
4:10
SPEAKER_03: is starting to fall away,
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either because things are ending or because you just suddenly
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have lost interest
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and you're understanding that you're kind of willing them to
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end in a way.
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SPEAKER_03: And yet the new hasn't filled in yet.
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SPEAKER_03: And so it's that...
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I like to liken it to that cartoon image that we've seen of
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someone who has one
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foot in a boat and one foot on the dock and the boat is
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drifting out to sea and
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SPEAKER_03: it's kind of wishbone being pulled apart.
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And that's it's a great image because in many ways that is
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exactly what it feels
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like being just pulled apart and split down the middle because
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part of you is
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SPEAKER_03: clinging to what was
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SPEAKER_03: Part of you is anxiously looking forward to what, to what may be.
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And I think that as modern humans,
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we do not tend to like threshold times.
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We don't like the betwixt and between because it's not hard and
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defined and routine
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SPEAKER_03: and seemingly safe.
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SPEAKER_03: Although when life's safe, I'm not sure when that ever happens.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: Um,
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SPEAKER_03: But to the ancients,
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SPEAKER_03: and I love that you have this,
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your podcast is called Romancing the Threshold because that's
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what they did.
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You know,
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they realized that threshold times were times of pure
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potential.
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SPEAKER_03: That's when magic happened.
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SPEAKER_03: That's where creativity lived.
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SPEAKER_03: And so their idea was you make...
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SPEAKER_03: those times,
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SPEAKER_03: those betwixt and between times,
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SPEAKER_03: the chaotic times,
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SPEAKER_03: the undefined times of your life,
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SPEAKER_03: you make them your ally.
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SPEAKER_03: You know, you step forward into them, not away from them.
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SPEAKER_03: And as such,
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SPEAKER_03: the Celtic people in particular,
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SPEAKER_03: since that's the tradition that I study and teach and practice,
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SPEAKER_03: um,
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They totally celebrated threshold times and had an enormous
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respect for what is
6:26
SPEAKER_03: betwixt and between,
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SPEAKER_03: what is undefined,
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SPEAKER_03: what does not have sharp definition and lines around it.
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SPEAKER_03: That was where the magic happened.
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SPEAKER_03: And so they were drawn to that.
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SPEAKER_03: They were drawn to that in the way that they told stories.
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They were drawn to that in the way that they lived and what
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they believed in.
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SPEAKER_03: and what they celebrated.
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So when you look at their holidays,
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for instance,
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I mean,
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you have four festivals in the year
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SPEAKER_03: And they are beginning in sort of in the beginning of our calendar year.
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SPEAKER_03: They are in bulk,
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SPEAKER_03: February 1st,
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SPEAKER_03: followed by Beltana,
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SPEAKER_03: May 1st,
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SPEAKER_03: followed by Lunasa,
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SPEAKER_03: August 1st,
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SPEAKER_03: followed by Samhain,
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SPEAKER_03: November 1st.
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SPEAKER_03: And Samhain is also the Celtic New Year.
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SPEAKER_03: It's when the new year begins.
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SPEAKER_03: And it's also the beginning of the dark half of the year.
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So they saw that there were two halves to the year,
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the light half and the dark half.
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SPEAKER_03: May 1st is the beginning of the light half of the year.
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And everything is always in a state of flux and a state of
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becoming in a state of falling away.
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SPEAKER_03: That's the way they saw it.
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SPEAKER_03: And so you celebrated that and you got into it.
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SPEAKER_03: You put yourself in the in the heart of that and acted accordingly.
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SPEAKER_03: What were you looking forward to?
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SPEAKER_03: What were you leaving behind?
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SPEAKER_03: What were you wrapping up?
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SPEAKER_03: What were you finishing off?
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SPEAKER_03: What were you saying farewell to?
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SPEAKER_03: And that was not only in your external life,
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SPEAKER_03: but in your internal life as well,
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SPEAKER_03: because all of those holidays called upon you to do something.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean, particularly this time of the year, you're moving into winter.
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SPEAKER_03: Now, we mark winter as the beginning of winter as the winter solstice.
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They got ready six weeks before because they're beginning to
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look at winter on November 1st.
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SPEAKER_03: That's when they realize, okay, we've got to start preparing.
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SPEAKER_03: The harvest is over.
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SPEAKER_03: This is the internal hibernating time of the year.
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SPEAKER_03: In ancient times, a lot of people died in the winter.
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SPEAKER_03: So it was a very solemn time and it was a time of reflection.
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SPEAKER_03: It was a time of seeking forgiveness.
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It was a time of reconciling with the ancestors because to
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their way of thinking,
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SPEAKER_03: the people that they owed the most to,
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SPEAKER_03: as far as the scrupulousness of their behavior,
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SPEAKER_03: was the ancestors.
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SPEAKER_03: You had to do the ancestors proud.
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SPEAKER_03: You had to uphold them.
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SPEAKER_03: You had to do honor to all that they had suffered for you.
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SPEAKER_03: And also at the same time,
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looking at your descendants and your progeny and wanting to set
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a good example for
9:13
SPEAKER_03: them.
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SPEAKER_03: So at this time of the year,
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SPEAKER_03: they're reflecting and they're also inviting the ancestors to come in.
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SPEAKER_03: And there's this lovely tradition,
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SPEAKER_03: speaking of thresholds,
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there's this lovely tradition at the Samhain time of the year
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where right before
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SPEAKER_03: November 1st,
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SPEAKER_03: and I think this is probably the forerunner of Mischief Night,
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SPEAKER_03: which we have before our Halloween show.
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the young people in the village would go and they would steal
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the gates and pieces
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SPEAKER_03: of fencing from the different farms and the different homesteads.
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SPEAKER_03: And then the following day,
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SPEAKER_03: they would return them to the homeowner and they would receive a treat.
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And so what they were doing was they were aiding in this
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opening up of the
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SPEAKER_03: boundaries between what had passed already and what was to come.
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SPEAKER_03: The ancestors and then the living, the other world and this world.
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SPEAKER_03: And it was a symbol of that.
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It was like,
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let's open everything up and just allow everything to pass
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through.
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They would invite the ancestors to come through and speak to
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them and speak in
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SPEAKER_03: terms of,
10:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
10:27
SPEAKER_03: where...
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Everyone had maybe gone wrong or made some wrong decisions the
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previous years
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SPEAKER_03: because the ancestors were the source of wisdom.
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SPEAKER_03: That's where they went when they had problems.
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They would go to the ancestors and they would say,
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you know,
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this is what we're experiencing.
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SPEAKER_03: Did you see this?
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And what did you decide when you were confronting this
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particular challenge?
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SPEAKER_03: What did you do?
10:56
SPEAKER_03: Because...
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SPEAKER_03: Here was all this wisdom.
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SPEAKER_03: Why repeat mistakes of the past?
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SPEAKER_03: You know,
11:04
when you've got this font of wisdom in the experiences of the
11:09
ancestors that you
11:10
SPEAKER_03: can invoke as guidance for how to move forward.
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So it's another way of like,
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how do you approach a threshold time,
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an unknown time?
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SPEAKER_03: Here's winter bearing down.
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SPEAKER_03: It's coming.
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SPEAKER_03: There's nothing we can do to stop it.
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SPEAKER_03: And some of us won't see the end, you know, the end of it.
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SPEAKER_03: And so...
11:33
SPEAKER_03: You know,
11:34
SPEAKER_03: here you have this kind of interesting sort of blend of,
11:39
SPEAKER_03: you know,
11:39
SPEAKER_03: what is,
11:40
SPEAKER_03: what is hard and fast,
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SPEAKER_03: what is becoming,
11:43
SPEAKER_03: what is falling away,
11:44
SPEAKER_03: and how wonky everything,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
11:47
SPEAKER_03: gets at that particular time.
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SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, seeing this is a time of pure potential.
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SPEAKER_03: And so, for instance...
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SPEAKER_03: when someone who was a seer or an Oracle, and this was a time of year.
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So it was a time of year when that was the big question,
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what's going to happen this year?
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SPEAKER_03: Are we going to survive the winter?
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And all the Oracle work kicked in and, um,
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So one of the ways of maximizing the accuracy or the depth of
12:21
the vision that you
12:22
could acquire was you try to find and assemble as many betwixt
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and between times or
12:31
SPEAKER_03: places as you could to stand there in that moment on that place.
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So you might stand on the threshold of your house with one foot
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out of the house
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SPEAKER_03: and one foot in.
12:45
dawn or at that place right before dawn where it's neither
12:49
night nor day.
12:51
And maybe it's a certain phase of the moon where it's that
12:56
point between is the
12:57
SPEAKER_03: moon waxing or waning now,
13:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:00
SPEAKER_03: and maybe shifting over from one to the other.
13:03
SPEAKER_03: Or it might be the eve of a particular day.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: time of the year,
13:09
SPEAKER_03: like the solstice,
13:11
SPEAKER_03: all of these,
13:12
SPEAKER_03: the two equinoxes,
13:14
SPEAKER_03: the two solstices and the four holidays that I mentioned before,
13:18
SPEAKER_03: were all celebrated on their eve,
13:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:21
because it was just as potent a time and as requiring our
13:26
celebration and our
13:27
SPEAKER_03: acknowledgement a time as
13:30
SPEAKER_03: the day before when it was not quite solemn,
13:32
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:33
SPEAKER_03: when it was not quite the solstice,
13:35
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:35
SPEAKER_03: is it spring or is it summer now?
13:38
SPEAKER_03: You know, which is it?
13:39
SPEAKER_03: You know, and so again, that kind of betwixt and between.
13:42
SPEAKER_03: And so that's what they would do.
13:43
Or they would stand like with one foot in the water and one
13:46
foot on the shore,
13:47
SPEAKER_03: or they would,
13:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:50
SPEAKER_03: one foot in light and one foot in shadow,
13:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:55
SPEAKER_03: and they would try to maximize as many betwixt and between
13:59
places and times as they could when they were seeking their
14:04
vision of the future,
14:06
SPEAKER_03: you know,
14:06
SPEAKER_03: because it's a power spot,
14:08
SPEAKER_03: right?
14:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a power spot.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking in a most comedic way,
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SPEAKER_00: it was like a twister of trying to be like,
14:16
SPEAKER_00: let's match all the thresholds in one place.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also thinking here when everything started in the dark.
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SPEAKER_00: So it was twilight, right?
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Probably a very powerful time, the twilight.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Just not day or not quite night.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Whenever all the colors get a little...
14:34
SPEAKER_00: You can't quite see...
14:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like your eyes play tricks on you during twilight.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: You see things out of the sides, you know, the periphery of your vision.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: And they also loved...
14:51
SPEAKER_03: You know,
14:51
SPEAKER_03: the places where there was a lot of mist or,
14:55
SPEAKER_03: you know,
14:56
foggy places or places that they designated because they
15:00
understood they coexisted
15:02
SPEAKER_03: with the Fae.
15:03
They knew what lands were Fae lands and what lands belong to
15:06
them and what lands to
15:08
SPEAKER_03: avoid because they were lands of the Fae.
15:12
SPEAKER_03: And out of respect and regard and a bit of fear as well.
15:18
They would avoid the,
15:19
you know,
15:20
those those areas,
15:21
but they were also power spots.
15:24
SPEAKER_03: You know, they were also places of the be twixt in between.
15:28
SPEAKER_03: And that's why funky things happened in those in those areas, you know.
15:32
SPEAKER_03: And when when we journey into the other world in the Celtic way,
15:38
SPEAKER_03: we journey through through the mist.
15:41
SPEAKER_03: You know, so you're running through the woods and a mist descends.
15:46
You imagine a mist descending so much,
15:48
so thick you can't see the hand in front of your face.
15:51
And you're running through the woods purely on instinct so that
15:53
you don't smash into a tree.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: And then the mist lifts and you're in the other world when that happens.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: So again, it's a portal.
16:03
SPEAKER_03: The betwixt and between is a portal.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: And it gives us access,
16:08
SPEAKER_03: those portals give us access to the other world and to the council and
16:13
collaboration and communication with our helping spirits and
16:21
with the ancestors,
16:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:23
SPEAKER_03: or the fae.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: Those characters who live in the other world.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, you can say,
16:33
SPEAKER_00: I sometimes think about this,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: that,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:35
we hear a lot of stories and work done with where we go
16:40
searching for their help,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: the ancestors,
16:43
SPEAKER_00: the helping spirits,
16:45
SPEAKER_00: even the Fae,
16:47
that we get to receive the help to deal with what's going on on
16:51
this side.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if on their side...
16:56
Do they have they in some ways perhaps concern or look to our
17:02
world and be like,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: oh,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: God,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: they need our help because they're messing it up over there.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: And if they keep going that direction,
17:12
SPEAKER_00: whatever is going to happen over there is going to affect our world.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: Does it does it cut the other way?
17:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a great question.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, the helping spirits definitely have a vested interest.
17:27
SPEAKER_03: in the growth and expansion and,
17:31
SPEAKER_03: let's say,
17:32
SPEAKER_03: maturation of the human psyche and the human collective.
17:37
SPEAKER_03: They're very invested in that.
17:42
SPEAKER_03: They,
17:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:44
SPEAKER_03: have either as helping spirits,
17:46
they have either lived here and have had earthly lives or they
17:52
live here now as
17:54
SPEAKER_03: like the Fae.
17:55
The Fae have a very deep interest in communication with us and
18:00
are very interested
18:01
in sort of the re-education of humanity because we have done so
18:07
much damage.
18:09
SPEAKER_03: Um,
18:11
SPEAKER_03: But what they're really looking for is a marriage of equals.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: a collaborative relationship because they see us as equals.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: It's not like we go, you know, bowing and scraping.
18:25
SPEAKER_03: Can you please help me?
18:26
Even though they do have that power and there is that promise
18:30
that they will help us.
18:32
SPEAKER_03: You know,
18:32
I think that we come here to Earth knowing how hard it is to
18:39
live in an earthly
18:42
SPEAKER_03: incarnation.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the promise.
18:47
SPEAKER_03: When you need protection,
18:48
SPEAKER_03: when you need wisdom,
18:49
SPEAKER_03: when you need healing,
18:52
SPEAKER_03: when you need insight,
18:56
SPEAKER_03: we will be here.
18:58
We'll have your back is kind of what I think is sort of the
19:02
promise that is made to
19:03
SPEAKER_03: us when we come here.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: Carl and us, we're here.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Have our sacred handshake with the divine, you know.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
19:11
SPEAKER_03: So there is that,
19:13
SPEAKER_03: that it's a promise that they're fulfilling,
19:16
but I think that they also have a vested interest in the growth
19:23
and heightening and
19:26
SPEAKER_03: divining,
19:27
SPEAKER_03: I would say,
19:28
SPEAKER_03: of the earth.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: But they don't want,
19:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:34
SPEAKER_03: and I tell this to my students,
19:36
SPEAKER_03: they don't want you bowing and scraping.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: they don't respond well to that.
19:42
SPEAKER_03: They want a marriage of equals and that's how they see it.
19:45
SPEAKER_03: They want a collaboration.
19:46
And so you're both really contributing when you go and you
19:53
invoke the helping
19:54
spirits and you're working with them and you're doing ceremony
19:57
to honor them and
20:00
SPEAKER_03: acknowledging them and conversing with them and all of that.
20:07
SPEAKER_03: And you're kind of sewing those two worlds together.
20:12
I think that you're serving a mutual goal of making this world
20:20
a better place,
20:21
SPEAKER_03: for lack of any other expression that we could use.
20:27
SPEAKER_03: And so we're vested in that.
20:31
SPEAKER_03: And they're vested in that very, very, very definitely.
20:35
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, there's an interesting phrase.
20:38
SPEAKER_03: I see if I can come up with that.
20:42
The Irish use and they use it mostly in terms of the ancestors
20:47
when they say this.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: But what they say is.
20:49
SPEAKER_03: There are things.
20:56
SPEAKER_03: in this world that we,
20:59
there are things we can't do that we can be done in the other
21:04
world and things in
21:05
SPEAKER_03: the other world that can't be done in this world.
21:08
SPEAKER_03: So there is still that understanding.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: We've got our role here on the earth.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: And,
21:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
21:16
SPEAKER_03: as far as like,
21:17
SPEAKER_03: for instance,
21:18
SPEAKER_03: ancestral healing,
21:22
SPEAKER_03: the ancestors,
21:22
SPEAKER_03: their life is done
21:25
SPEAKER_03: They're kind of stuck with whatever legacy they left,
21:28
SPEAKER_03: even though it may not have been what they intended.
21:31
They depend on their descendants who are in the body to become
21:37
aware of the things
21:38
that need to be healed because they are the ones who can heal
21:41
it because they're
21:42
SPEAKER_02: healed.
21:44
And at the same time,
21:46
there are these struggles that we have as humans that
21:52
SPEAKER_03: You know, and I tell people this all the time.
21:54
I say,
21:54
you know,
21:54
like,
21:55
you know,
21:56
your mother passed over last year,
21:58
you know,
21:58
whatever.
21:59
SPEAKER_03: Pray to your mother.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Ask her help.
22:03
SPEAKER_03: You know, I always ask my mother's help.
22:07
SPEAKER_03: I mean, both my parents are dead and have been for many, many years.
22:10
But mother to mother,
22:13
you know,
22:13
when I'm worried about my sons,
22:16
you know,
22:17
I just...
22:18
SPEAKER_03: Ask her to intercede.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: And she comes to the rescue every time.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: Almost unbelievably so.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, so here I have a question.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: When my father died,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: it was,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: what,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: eight,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: nine years ago now,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: I felt,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: granted,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: I had a different relationship with him.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: It was a different vibe.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: And I felt that once he died, I could almost feel he was...
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Like soon enough,
22:46
I felt like he was released from the limitations of being his
22:50
personality,
22:51
SPEAKER_00: his ego,
22:52
SPEAKER_00: his physicality here.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And on the other side, he was bigger, like he was expansive.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: And in these last eight,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: nine years,
23:03
I have felt that my relationship with him has changed because I
23:06
don't see him as he
23:08
SPEAKER_00: was here.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: He's bigger in my mind, more expanded.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And so when my mother was dying, I really called on my father.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And I sometimes joke he's my patron saint now.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I would get upset and be like, Dad, you married her.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: You got to really help me out here.
23:28
And because I have a very different I had a very different
23:30
relationship with my
23:31
SPEAKER_00: mother,
23:32
SPEAKER_00: much more challenging.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: So as she's died, it's been a year now.
23:37
I personally feel like I right now I don't feel ready to talk
23:42
to her because in my
23:43
SPEAKER_00: mind,
23:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
23:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: she's got to do her therapy on the other side.
23:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, she might not be ready to talk to you.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's fine.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm OK with that, you know.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: But I wonder, I guess the question is, do you in this perspective?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Do the ancestors grow on the other side?
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Because at least I felt with my father.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: But do they expand and they're like,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: wow,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: what was I thinking when I,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: I was embodied and I did that?
24:11
SPEAKER_00: That was wrong.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, that was wrong of me or whatever was the response.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And then they're on the other side,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: like just being like,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: oh,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: let's hope one of our descendants,
24:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:21
SPEAKER_00: picks it up.
24:21
And so we can go there and now help fix it because we we made a
24:26
boo boo in the past,
24:27
you know.
24:28
SPEAKER_03: Do they leave this?
24:29
SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
24:31
SPEAKER_03: That's true.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
24:32
we we have our life review where we go through things with a
24:37
fine tooth comb and we
24:39
SPEAKER_03: examine decisions that we made.
24:41
SPEAKER_03: What did we learn?
24:42
SPEAKER_03: What could we have learned if we had acted differently?
24:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, and it's not like a recrimination.
24:47
SPEAKER_03: It's not like, oh, I really screwed up.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: I really let down the side.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: I don't think it's ever seen that way because it's all learning.
24:56
And if it's something that you learned,
24:58
it's something you needed to learn.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: We don't learn things that we knew already, right?
25:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's all good is kind of the way it's seen.
25:13
SPEAKER_03: And I also have found indications in,
25:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
25:17
SPEAKER_03: visiting people on the other side on behalf of my clients or whatever,
25:20
a loved one that has passed and they want to know how are they
25:24
doing and all of
25:25
SPEAKER_03: that.
25:25
And so I've made these journeys to the other side and I have
25:29
found people doing things that
25:32
SPEAKER_03: that they're interested in.
25:34
SPEAKER_03: It's like they can do things there too.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: They don't have to come here.
25:37
It's not like they're just sitting there,
25:39
marking time until it's time to come back or whatever.
25:43
SPEAKER_03: They can do things there.
25:46
And one of the things that I have found more than once in young
25:54
people who have
25:55
SPEAKER_03: died because of a drug overdose,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: they work with addicts.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: They work with addicts here on the earth,
26:06
SPEAKER_03: guardian angels,
26:08
SPEAKER_03: helping to commission souls of those who die of an overdose.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: They become very, very invested.
26:16
SPEAKER_03: And in that way,
26:18
they're working through that whole learning and that whole
26:22
karma surrounding the
26:26
SPEAKER_03: use of drugs in a very valuable way.
26:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:34
Do you also see if people incarnated here now when they dream
26:39
or maybe through a
26:40
SPEAKER_00: journey,
26:40
but maybe if they're dreaming because they're not fully
26:44
conscious and trying to go
26:45
SPEAKER_00: to a place,
26:46
SPEAKER_00: do they go to the other world and do work over there as well?
26:51
SPEAKER_03: They might go over there and communicate.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: I don't know about work necessarily.
26:55
SPEAKER_03: I don't think I've seen that.
26:58
SPEAKER_03: You can certainly journey to the other world.
27:00
And I've done that many times to sit with my family to find out
27:05
if they have
27:07
SPEAKER_03: anything that they want me to work on in terms of what I just said.
27:11
There are things that I can do because I'm here and I'm in the
27:15
body that they can't
27:17
SPEAKER_03: do and vice versa.
27:19
And so I have,
27:21
you know,
27:22
convened with them,
27:23
aunts,
27:23
uncles,
27:24
grandparents,
27:25
parents,
27:26
my brother.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: You know, sometimes they want something done.
27:32
SPEAKER_03: They want a message to go to, you know, their daughter or
27:37
SPEAKER_03: you know, whatever, my cousin maybe or something.
27:39
SPEAKER_03: So my aunt wants me to give a message to my cousin for them.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: You know, and I've had those kinds of requests.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: It should be a collaboration.
27:55
SPEAKER_03: You know, we should be in touch with them as the ancients were.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: The ancients communicated with the ancestors all the time.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:04
not just because they were wise and they knew things and they
28:08
had experienced
28:08
SPEAKER_03: things that those,
28:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:12
SPEAKER_03: among the living were wrestling with,
28:16
but because there has to be that kind of continuity and there
28:20
has to be that kind
28:21
SPEAKER_03: of mutual support.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: I was asking because this is several, several years ago.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I remember having dreams.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: This is when I used to teach English as a foreign language.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: And I used to have dreams that I was in another world teaching.
28:40
I was there teaching because they were going to incarnate in
28:43
the language of English.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, this is quite uncanny.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And then I did not have those dreams.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: So I was just thinking about this.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, do we do stuff on the other side too?
28:55
Mm-hmm.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it was just an anxiety dream about teaching.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: I think we definitely do a lot of work before we come in to,
29:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
29:03
SPEAKER_03: quite possibly visit the family that we're going to be born into and,
29:09
SPEAKER_03: you know,
29:09
SPEAKER_03: check out,
29:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
29:10
SPEAKER_03: our circumstances.
29:13
SPEAKER_03: I think that's definitely a possibility.
29:17
You know,
29:18
and we have,
29:18
of course,
29:19
not just our earth family,
29:21
but we have our soul family.
29:23
a family of souls that continue to reincarnate again and again
29:28
and again with one another.
29:30
And so oftentimes those who are out of the body with us are
29:37
advising us about the
29:40
SPEAKER_03: life that we're planning,
29:41
SPEAKER_03: the mission that we're planning on undertaking.
29:45
SPEAKER_03: So,
29:45
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
29:45
I think that there is a lot of communication and there's need
29:48
for a lot of
29:49
SPEAKER_03: communication back and forth.
29:51
SPEAKER_03: the way it was originally designed.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: It's just a shame that it feels like for so long,
29:58
SPEAKER_00: for so many centuries,
30:00
SPEAKER_00: the channels were not completely closed for sure,
30:02
SPEAKER_00: but definitely...
30:05
SPEAKER_00: more tampered down.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: And now I think about the times we're going through this collective.
30:13
It feels like it's bigger than just the individual or even just
30:16
the country.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: There's something bigger brewing.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: And then I feel like, wow, we have all these channels open.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Let's
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Let's communicate.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Let's relate to them,
30:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:27
SPEAKER_00: not just go there,
30:28
SPEAKER_00: like you were saying,
30:29
SPEAKER_00: on our knees,
30:31
SPEAKER_00: because we also have something to offer.
30:33
But to engage in this relationship with more awareness rather
30:37
than just bracing for
30:39
SPEAKER_00: impact,
30:40
SPEAKER_01: you know.
30:41
SPEAKER_03: And belief that those channels are there and that they should be used.
30:45
You know,
30:45
I think that that's what happens,
30:47
you know,
30:47
through organized religion and so on.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: Don't go down those channels.
30:52
SPEAKER_03: Don't have those conversations.
30:54
SPEAKER_03: You know, the warning around it.
30:56
And I think,
30:57
you know,
30:58
people still kind of carry that idea,
31:02
you know,
31:02
that there's danger.
31:05
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, it's one of the great things about the shamanic journey.
31:07
SPEAKER_03: It's a time-honored journey.
31:10
SPEAKER_03: process and practice that if done right,
31:13
SPEAKER_03: it's a completely safe and,
31:16
SPEAKER_03: as I said,
31:16
time-honored way of communicating with the spirit world in the
31:22
way in which we were
31:23
SPEAKER_03: meant to have access to our helping spirits.
31:27
And we,
31:29
you know,
31:29
we've just grown up in a world where we weren't really taught
31:33
to invoke that.
31:34
SPEAKER_03: And to distrust it, you know.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: And and to think that we're I mean,
31:42
SPEAKER_03: it's that whole idea of separation,
31:44
SPEAKER_03: the belief we're we're here on our own.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: It's down to us, you know, and that's not true at all.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: And,
31:53
SPEAKER_03: you know,
31:53
we have plenty of protecting spirits that we can invoke if
31:59
we're ever in danger or
32:01
SPEAKER_03: we feel threatened.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: We need support.
32:05
SPEAKER_03: We're scared.
32:07
SPEAKER_03: They're right there.
32:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, and they're very generous because it's a group project.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: It's not like they're doing something for you.
32:20
SPEAKER_03: They're doing something for all of us.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: It's the oneness idea.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: You said.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Go on.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you go ahead.
32:29
I was curious because this is something you said earlier on
32:32
that they also have a
32:33
SPEAKER_00: vested interest that we have.
32:36
mature that we maturate what is that really about i guess what
32:42
is it that from your
32:43
experience in in doing this work that what would they like to
32:48
see i guess i think
32:51
SPEAKER_03: they would like to see us as they see us i guess how do they see us
32:58
SPEAKER_03: You know,
32:58
SPEAKER_03: it's interesting because,
33:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
33:00
SPEAKER_03: in this whole thing about betwixt and between,
33:04
SPEAKER_03: you know,
33:05
SPEAKER_03: and yes,
33:05
we do come to these very identifiable times in our lives where
33:10
we know we're on a
33:11
threshold and things are falling away and the future is very
33:14
blurry and we can't
33:15
SPEAKER_03: see where we're going and it's very unsettling.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: But aren't we kind of in a betwixt and between all the time?
33:25
SPEAKER_03: You know, like where we on some level,
33:29
SPEAKER_03: We might know and see our potential.
33:33
SPEAKER_03: We are inspired by things.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: We have passion about things.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: We maybe get ideas.
33:40
SPEAKER_03: You know,
33:41
I'm going to do this or I want to strive for that or I want to
33:44
visit that place or
33:45
SPEAKER_03: I want to discover this or whatever it is.
33:49
SPEAKER_03: And then we talk ourselves out of it.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: You know, like we're full of that in one day.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: And then the next day, we're like, what was I thinking?
33:59
SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to be able to.
34:01
And so we go from seeing who we really are and what we are
34:06
really capable of.
34:08
Being in touch,
34:09
quite possibly,
34:11
maybe just in glimpses with our own divinity.
34:14
And then we slam back into a place of limitation and a place of
34:20
failure and a place
34:22
SPEAKER_03: of,
34:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
34:22
SPEAKER_03: where we lack faith and belief in ourselves.
34:26
SPEAKER_03: We're always in that sway.
34:28
And I think that what the helping spirits want more than
34:31
anything is for us to
34:34
SPEAKER_03: finally come more into seeing who we really are,
34:39
SPEAKER_03: why we're really here.
34:42
Instead of getting caught in all of the morass and getting
34:45
talked out of that and
34:47
SPEAKER_03: getting talked into...
34:50
SPEAKER_03: Things that are not part of our purpose,
34:53
SPEAKER_03: are not reflecting our true self,
34:57
SPEAKER_03: are not making use of our genius and our talents.
35:02
SPEAKER_03: and the wealth of that.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we come in here fully stocked.
35:06
SPEAKER_03: Our backpack is full to the brim.
35:08
SPEAKER_03: You know,
35:09
SPEAKER_03: if we decide,
35:09
SPEAKER_03: well,
35:10
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to do this and I'm interested in exploring that,
35:13
we are given everything that we require in order to pull that
35:18
off more than enough.
35:21
SPEAKER_03: And a lot of that just gets
35:25
SPEAKER_03: untapped and unused.
35:27
SPEAKER_03: And so the helping spirits and those in the spirit world,
35:32
SPEAKER_03: the ancestors and so on,
35:34
they realize that if we could stay in that knowing of ourselves
35:44
in the way they see
35:45
SPEAKER_03: us and the way they know who we are,
35:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's win, win, win all over the place.
35:52
SPEAKER_03: This world would be a totally different place, right?
35:54
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting because I like this image.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I never thought about that, that we come fully stocked.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And we come with the abundance to do it.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: But we've been taught pure potential.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: But we've been taught and culturally,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: that's the message we'll get,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: that we come already with the,
36:16
SPEAKER_00: quote,
36:17
SPEAKER_00: unquote,
36:17
SPEAKER_00: the original sin.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: We come broken.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: We already...
36:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, not so great merchandise.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: But it's the opposite.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: We already come in with all of it.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: And even the,
36:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm also getting the image that the things we desire,
36:31
SPEAKER_00: the visions that inspire us,
36:34
SPEAKER_00: are pointing us towards where we can be headed.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, the desire, the joy, the...
36:42
SPEAKER_00: You know,
36:42
SPEAKER_00: to use Joseph Campbell to follow your bliss,
36:45
SPEAKER_00: it's pointing you towards your potentiality.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: But we're like, no, no, no.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Let's turn this way.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: You know,
36:51
SPEAKER_03: obligation,
36:52
obligation always gets us in the way that we've been
36:55
conditioned by our family to
36:57
SPEAKER_03: believe,
36:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:57
SPEAKER_03: oh,
36:58
SPEAKER_03: you're a loser and you're no good at that.
36:59
SPEAKER_03: No one cares what you think.
37:01
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, whatever.
37:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's not necessarily what our what our family might have said.
37:06
said to us,
37:07
but our experience in that family made us feel my input isn't
37:11
worthwhile.
37:12
SPEAKER_03: I'm not understood.
37:16
The things that are of interest to me are weird and no one's
37:21
going to be interested in that.
37:23
You know,
37:23
so there's all these things in our conditioning that talk us
37:28
out of who we really are.
37:30
SPEAKER_03: And so it's this vacillation back and forth.
37:35
SPEAKER_03: That is the area of my work.
37:38
It's the divide between or the gap between the conditioning of
37:44
my client and what
37:46
SPEAKER_03: they are aspiring to.
37:48
SPEAKER_03: And oftentimes they're not even in touch with what they're aspiring to.
37:51
But when the helping spirits show me something that is in their
37:56
kind of destiny,
37:58
SPEAKER_03: I've never had anybody go, oh, no, I don't think so.
38:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean, they know it.
38:02
SPEAKER_03: They know it.
38:04
And yet they're so removed from it because they're so bound up
38:07
in their conditioning.
38:09
SPEAKER_03: And I see,
38:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:10
like particularly one of the things that happens a lot with
38:15
clients of mine,
38:17
women in particular will come in and they're they're so
38:22
frustrated because all of
38:24
SPEAKER_03: their time and energy
38:26
SPEAKER_03: is consumed by the needs of their family.
38:31
So they're taking care of their aging parents and maybe they
38:34
have a sibling that
38:36
SPEAKER_03: has difficulties and they're looking out for the sibling and they're,
38:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:40
SPEAKER_03: taking care of children,
38:42
SPEAKER_03: grandchildren.
38:42
SPEAKER_03: They have no time for themselves.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: It's all outgoing.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I mean, I've heard the helping spirit say it.
38:52
SPEAKER_03: You did not come to this life to take care of your family.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: It's not why you're here.
38:59
and i mean yes we we can take care of our family in our spare
39:04
time or like you know
39:05
besides doing the other things that we long to do we want to to
39:11
bond with our
39:12
family and love our family and be with them and take care of
39:15
them yes but to give
39:17
over your whole life to that to the point where you're not even
39:21
taking care of
39:21
SPEAKER_03: yourself anymore let alone your destiny
39:26
SPEAKER_03: let alone figuring out why you're here, who you are.
39:30
SPEAKER_03: And that is a real heartache of a lot of,
39:32
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:33
SPEAKER_03: elder women who,
39:36
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:36
SPEAKER_03: they've grown children and they're,
39:38
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:38
SPEAKER_03: maybe they've retired from a job that they had working at,
39:42
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:43
SPEAKER_03: an insurance agency or something.
39:44
And they're sitting there looking at their life,
39:46
like what's all this about,
39:50
you know?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: What did I do?
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: Um,
39:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just kind of switching a bit, but I'm curious.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, we talked about the ancestors.
40:03
So there's at least I feel with the ancestors,
40:05
there's this humanity piece,
40:07
right?
40:07
SPEAKER_00: They've been here, done that, got the T-shirt.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, they know what it's like.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: But what about the other beings of the other world,
40:14
SPEAKER_00: like the Fae or even other beings that I don't even know?
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:20
SPEAKER_03: What is that like?
40:22
SPEAKER_03: They are here.
40:23
SPEAKER_03: You know, they share this world with us.
40:26
SPEAKER_03: They are the invisible part or what is called the middle world.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean, in the Celtic tradition, it's called the other world.
40:35
And the reason why they call it the other world and they don't
40:38
designate lower,
40:39
SPEAKER_03: middle and upper is
40:41
SPEAKER_03: is because they believe the other world is right here.
40:44
SPEAKER_03: It's right here.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: You just move sideways.
40:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, and and you can invoke it in the in a blink of an eye.
40:54
SPEAKER_03: And so the Fae are here.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: They are believed to be.
41:04
SPEAKER_03: Those who are,
41:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
41:06
SPEAKER_03: they stand for what they value is beauty and order and harmony,
41:15
SPEAKER_03: love,
41:16
SPEAKER_03: certainly,
41:17
SPEAKER_03: and magic,
41:19
SPEAKER_03: the magnificent.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: That's kind of the element that is their domain.
41:25
And they see and observe and experience all of the ways in
41:30
which humans have desecrated that.
41:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
41:34
SPEAKER_03: either in their relationship with nature,
41:37
SPEAKER_03: if you want to call it a relationship when you look at it historically.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: More of an abusive relationship, but yes.
41:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly, you know.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: But they have an interest in collaborating with,
41:55
with us to a degree because they know that that's going to be a
41:59
necessary component
42:02
SPEAKER_03: if we're going to change the direction that we've been going,
42:06
SPEAKER_03: that humanity has been going for eons.
42:10
SPEAKER_03: If we're going to change that,
42:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:13
SPEAKER_03: they have to collaborate with us and we have to collaborate with them.
42:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
42:19
SPEAKER_03: the stories go that,
42:22
SPEAKER_03: and this is,
42:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:22
this is part of the Celtic lore and part of the lore of really
42:26
every tradition,
42:27
every indigenous tradition across the globe knows and believes
42:34
in and has stories
42:36
SPEAKER_03: about and acknowledges the presence of the Fae.
42:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: It's not just the Irish.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:46
SPEAKER_03: But it's very rich.
42:48
SPEAKER_03: in the Celtic lore.
42:52
SPEAKER_03: And the idea is that they lived here on the earth like we do.
42:57
SPEAKER_03: They coexisted with humans until they got,
43:01
SPEAKER_03: for whatever reason,
43:02
SPEAKER_03: reached a point,
43:03
SPEAKER_03: a crisis point in which they couldn't hack that cohabitation anymore.
43:09
And so they created a world of their own,
43:12
a world beside ours,
43:13
a world beneath ours.
43:16
A world,
43:16
you know,
43:17
off into the mists,
43:18
you know,
43:19
there's different versions of where they are.
43:23
SPEAKER_03: But they are very much still here and very much aware of,
43:30
SPEAKER_03: you know,
43:30
the state of the world and what needs to be done to bring it
43:35
back into harmony.
43:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
43:38
SPEAKER_03: I sort of feel that,
43:39
SPEAKER_03: like,
43:39
SPEAKER_03: without them,
43:40
SPEAKER_03: we would have probably blown the place up,
43:42
SPEAKER_03: you know.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: I can just imagine them doing that sort of facepalm.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Every time humans do something, they're like, oh, facepalm.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: There they go again.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: There they go again.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Jesus.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we tried.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Let's go again.
43:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: So we spoke about the ancestors.
44:05
SPEAKER_03: You know,
44:05
SPEAKER_03: there's ascended masters,
44:07
SPEAKER_03: there's the angelic realm,
44:09
SPEAKER_03: there's the elementals who are part of the fae.
44:13
SPEAKER_03: You know,
44:14
SPEAKER_03: I think that there are,
44:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
44:17
SPEAKER_03: many who have lived here who still are kind of watching,
44:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
44:24
SPEAKER_03: even if they are not
44:27
SPEAKER_03: intending to incarnate again,
44:32
but they still have that affection for the earth and have that
44:41
investment in seeing
44:44
something better than the state we're in now and the state that
44:49
we've been in for
44:50
SPEAKER_03: eons.
44:53
SPEAKER_03: And so to whatever extent
44:57
SPEAKER_03: they can lend a hand either by being a spirit guide for someone,
45:04
SPEAKER_03: for instance,
45:06
SPEAKER_03: or just holding space,
45:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:12
SPEAKER_03: performing acts of divine intervention,
45:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:16
SPEAKER_03: pulling somebody back by the collar from an oncoming car,
45:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
45:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:26
SPEAKER_03: and I think that,
45:28
SPEAKER_03: You know,
45:29
SPEAKER_03: there's a lot of things,
45:30
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: people have been saying recently,
45:32
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:33
SPEAKER_03: that,
45:35
SPEAKER_03: and I think that this is true.
45:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
45:36
SPEAKER_03: I just sort of feel that this is true,
45:37
SPEAKER_03: that there are extraterrestrials and,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:42
civilizations that have had their eye on us for longer than we
45:48
probably knew that
45:51
SPEAKER_03: we were.
45:53
SPEAKER_03: had a consciousness about, oh, I'm a human being.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: Even before that, I think they were aware.
46:01
And I think that there is this kind of collective desire for
46:10
the earth to become
46:11
SPEAKER_03: something better,
46:12
SPEAKER_03: to move into its potential in much the same way that we as individuals
46:18
SPEAKER_03: want to come into our own potential.
46:21
SPEAKER_03: You know,
46:21
SPEAKER_03: and the rooting from the,
46:23
SPEAKER_03: you know,
46:24
the spirit world for those of us who can turn away from that
46:35
part of us that talks
46:36
SPEAKER_03: us out of our greatness,
46:38
SPEAKER_03: talks us out of our genius,
46:40
SPEAKER_03: our potential,
46:43
SPEAKER_03: our destiny.
46:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:45
SPEAKER_03: When we're able to do that, it's not just our victory.
46:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a collective one.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking here,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: I've had this idea for a while,
46:55
SPEAKER_00: like we have the myths,
46:57
SPEAKER_00: we have the stories that kept,
47:00
they've survived centuries and still they're kind of tickling
47:05
our imagination that
47:07
SPEAKER_00: this says there's something other that's not just us here,
47:10
SPEAKER_00: you know.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking now in the current world,
47:16
SPEAKER_00: how many of these stories,
47:18
SPEAKER_00: especially now if we think of fiction writing,
47:21
SPEAKER_00: how many of these stories now talk about the Fae?
47:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, granted, it's through the romance lands.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: They do the romanticcy and they have just exploded.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes I think...
47:32
Beings on the other side are like,
47:34
well,
47:34
we have to get their attention in some way.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: So let's inspire them.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, it comes through the, if you will, the muses.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: And people write these stories.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: They kind of almost channel them in a way.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: And it catches fire, if you will.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: It hits an archetypal resonance in the collective imagination.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: I think it's beyond just marketing.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, if it doesn't have the archetypal resonance, it doesn't stick.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: it sticks and it expands and more people go.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think it's like,
48:09
SPEAKER_00: it's their way of them saying,
48:10
SPEAKER_00: okay,
48:11
SPEAKER_00: we're trying to catch your attention in any way possible.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: So even if it's writing through these novels, it's good.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Let's do the movies.
48:20
Let's do the series as a way to engage our imagination,
48:26
to invite us back to,
48:28
to see that there's another side that is there,
48:33
that we can relate to it.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
48:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:37
SPEAKER_03: And I mean,
48:38
isn't it all just a retelling of stories that have been told
48:42
before in different
48:43
SPEAKER_03: ways?
48:44
You know,
48:44
the characters may change,
48:45
but it's still the hero's journey,
48:48
for instance.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:51
SPEAKER_03: One of the reasons why I love the Celtic lore is
48:54
SPEAKER_03: is how much relevance I see in those stories, these ancient stories.
49:00
We have no idea how old these stories are because they were
49:07
exchanged through an
49:08
oral tradition for eons before they were written down generally
49:13
in the Middle Ages
49:14
SPEAKER_03: by monks.
49:18
SPEAKER_03: and probably changed significantly when they were transcribed.
49:23
SPEAKER_03: But,
49:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:24
the Celts resisted a written language for a really long time
49:28
because they liked the
49:30
SPEAKER_03: organicness of the oral story,
49:34
SPEAKER_03: that it could change depending on the audience,
49:38
SPEAKER_03: depending on the time.
49:40
You know,
49:40
the challenge of the bard or the storyteller was to find the
49:44
right story.
49:45
SPEAKER_03: for the moment and to tell it in the right way,
49:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:50
SPEAKER_03: so that it would make the most impact.
49:54
SPEAKER_03: And those stories, I think, have tremendous relevance.
49:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
49:58
SPEAKER_03: I find so much in all of them,
50:01
SPEAKER_03: even just like little tiny chunks of a story that's really...
50:07
SPEAKER_03: You know,
50:08
SPEAKER_03: marching along,
50:09
SPEAKER_03: talking about something else and,
50:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:12
SPEAKER_03: kind of unraveling an adventure or something.
50:14
But there's some little side note or some kind of interesting
50:16
little thing that I
50:18
SPEAKER_03: think,
50:18
SPEAKER_03: wow,
50:19
that's so interesting that that would happen or that that
50:23
person would do that or
50:24
SPEAKER_03: say that or whatever.
50:26
SPEAKER_03: What's the meaning of that?
50:27
SPEAKER_03: What are they trying, you know, what are they trying to say?
50:29
And of course,
50:30
you know,
50:30
these stories,
50:31
I mean,
50:31
hold enormous lessons for us.
50:35
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I made use of them.
50:38
SPEAKER_03: I tapped into many of them in my latest novel.
50:44
through the use of a mother telling these stories to her son
50:49
and having the son
50:51
kind of reflecting back to her about its meaning and its
50:55
relevance for him,
50:56
SPEAKER_03: even though he's a small boy.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
50:59
SPEAKER_03: And her kind of guiding him through that,
51:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
51:03
SPEAKER_03: and demonstrating how this is relevant for you,
51:06
SPEAKER_03: too.
51:06
SPEAKER_03: There's a message here for you as well.
51:10
SPEAKER_03: And those stories,
51:12
SPEAKER_03: because they are timeless,
51:15
SPEAKER_03: when she,
51:15
SPEAKER_03: through the course of the book,
51:16
SPEAKER_03: loses,
51:18
SPEAKER_03: or the course of the story of the book,
51:19
SPEAKER_03: loses her son,
51:22
SPEAKER_03: he's killed in an accident,
51:24
SPEAKER_03: it's the stories that connect the two of them.
51:28
SPEAKER_03: It's the stories that become the conduit or the connecting piece,
51:36
SPEAKER_03: the tether between the two of them so that they can continue on.
51:42
SPEAKER_03: It is through those stories that they understand who each other is.
51:47
You know,
51:49
even though one of them is in the other world and one of them
51:51
is here.
51:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
51:56
SPEAKER_03: I can't say enough about the Celtic stories and how beautiful they are,
52:01
SPEAKER_03: how wise they are,
52:04
SPEAKER_03: how rich they are.
52:07
SPEAKER_03: And,
52:07
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:08
SPEAKER_03: in my own life,
52:09
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
52:09
there's a lot of times when something's happening and it'll
52:12
remind me of something
52:13
SPEAKER_03: in a story,
52:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:16
SPEAKER_03: and I'll kind of start framing what's going on in my life in terms of,
52:20
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:21
SPEAKER_03: happened in some little chunk of some story.
52:26
SPEAKER_03: You know,
52:27
SPEAKER_03: it's,
52:28
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
52:28
I just find that such rich ground and I love those stories and
52:32
I love those
52:33
SPEAKER_03: characters.
52:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: Is there one particularly for this?
52:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
52:39
for this time in the year or maybe for this time in our
52:43
collective as a country,
52:47
perhaps you feel it's a story that you it holds to you a
52:53
special story that I think
52:58
SPEAKER_03: sort of touches on a lot of what we've been talking about,
53:00
SPEAKER_03: about the betwixt and between Welsh story.
53:05
SPEAKER_03: And the character in the story is named Lou.
53:09
His name is spelled L-L-E-U,
53:11
not to be confused with the Irish Lou,
53:13
L-U-G-H.
53:16
But he is an interesting character to look at in terms of the
53:26
betwixt and between.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: So
53:29
He's born because his mother is Arianrod,
53:35
who is the goddess of the moon.
53:40
SPEAKER_03: And she lives off on an island by herself.
53:42
SPEAKER_03: She wants nothing to do with men.
53:46
SPEAKER_03: And so she presents herself to the court as a virgin.
53:51
And the wizard of the court hits her with a magic wand,
53:57
and she births two
53:59
SPEAKER_03: boys on the, you know, right in the in the court and it's humiliated.
54:06
SPEAKER_03: And so she completely denies these two these two offspring.
54:10
SPEAKER_03: One is a is a child that she has had with the ocean.
54:15
SPEAKER_03: He's half water and half boy.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: The other one is a child that she's had with an eagle.
54:21
SPEAKER_03: And that's Lou.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: He's he's half eagle and half human.
54:27
So he's taken into foster care by his uncle,
54:31
who is Arianrod's brother,
54:33
Gwydion.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: Now,
54:35
the way that things were done in this ancient tradition is that
54:41
it was the mother
54:43
SPEAKER_03: who gave the son his name,
54:46
SPEAKER_03: his weapons,
54:47
and everything that he needed to care for himself or go out
54:52
into the world.
54:54
SPEAKER_03: And there's actually a feast day called the Feast of the Spears,
54:58
SPEAKER_03: which happens on the Vernal Equinox,
55:04
SPEAKER_03: March 20th.
55:05
And it was the time when mothers would give to their sons who
55:09
are coming of age a
55:11
SPEAKER_03: cauldron,
55:12
SPEAKER_03: a spear,
55:15
SPEAKER_03: I think a sword and a sword.
55:18
SPEAKER_03: shield.
55:19
SPEAKER_03: And it was all that he needed to go hunting,
55:21
SPEAKER_03: to protect himself,
55:23
SPEAKER_03: to cook his food,
55:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
55:25
SPEAKER_03: to go out into the world.
55:27
And the third thing that the mother was supposed to give her
55:30
son was a wife.
55:32
SPEAKER_03: She was supposed to find a wife for him.
55:35
So because Arian Rudd doesn't want anything to do with Lou,
55:40
who doesn't have a name yet.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: She didn't give him a name, yes.
55:46
SPEAKER_03: She gets tricked.
55:47
She gets tricked by her brother twice into first naming him
55:52
because she doesn't know who he is.
55:56
SPEAKER_03: And second into giving him weapons.
56:03
SPEAKER_03: After that, she's like, you're not going to do this to me again.
56:06
SPEAKER_03: You're not going to trick me again.
56:07
SPEAKER_03: So he's on his own.
56:09
SPEAKER_03: So Gwydion and the wizard together,
56:14
SPEAKER_03: the two of them conjure a wife for him who's made of flowers.
56:21
SPEAKER_03: So she's not human.
56:23
SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, here we are at this stage of Lou's life.
56:27
SPEAKER_03: He sort of has a name, but sort of doesn't.
56:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's sort of his name, but sort of not.
56:31
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's he sort of has weapons, but sort of not.
56:35
SPEAKER_03: He has a wife that's sort of a wife, but not really a wife.
56:40
And he's dependent,
56:41
completely dependent upon his uncle's whims and his uncle's
56:45
interest in him.
56:48
And so he marries this wife that's been conjured by his uncle,
56:56
whose name is Bledowid.
56:58
SPEAKER_03: And time goes on and he goes away a lot.
57:02
SPEAKER_03: And so she's left at home by herself.
57:05
SPEAKER_03: And one day, a stranger, I think he's like a...
57:11
SPEAKER_03: a neighbor or something from a like a neighboring estate.
57:14
SPEAKER_03: And he gets lost or it's inclement weather.
57:18
SPEAKER_03: It's nightfall or whatever.
57:20
SPEAKER_03: And he knocks on the door because he can't make it home.
57:24
SPEAKER_03: And they strike up a relationship.
57:25
SPEAKER_03: And after a while, they start to plot the demise of Lou.
57:34
And so the interesting thing about Lou is that he can't be
57:38
killed unless there is
57:40
SPEAKER_03: this confluence of all of these various betwixt and between factors.
57:47
So she says to him,
57:50
you know,
57:50
she says to her lover,
57:52
he's not gonna be easy to kill.
57:54
You know,
57:55
I have to get the lowdown on this so that we can orchestrate
57:59
this.
58:00
So one of the things was that he could only be killed with a
58:05
spear that took a year
58:08
SPEAKER_03: and a day,
58:09
SPEAKER_03: not a year,
58:10
SPEAKER_03: not a day,
58:12
SPEAKER_03: right?
58:12
SPEAKER_03: A year and a day to make.
58:15
SPEAKER_03: And the person who made it could not do anything else.
58:22
That had to be their only labor,
58:23
but they could only do it at a certain point every day.
58:28
SPEAKER_03: And so after a year and a day, here's this spear.
58:31
But then there's all these other circumstances where he can't
58:37
be killed unless
58:38
SPEAKER_03: there's this,
58:40
SPEAKER_03: as I said,
58:40
SPEAKER_03: this confluence of all of these betwixt and between factors.
58:43
So Bledowicz says,
58:45
you know,
58:45
darling,
58:46
when you're away,
58:47
I worry so much about you.
58:50
SPEAKER_03: And I know that you told me that there's a lot of factors that have to,
58:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:56
SPEAKER_03: all be working together in order for you to die.
59:02
Maybe if you told me what those were,
59:04
then I would be reassured and I wouldn't worry.
59:09
SPEAKER_03: So he says, okay.
59:12
SPEAKER_03: And she says, you know, like, I want to see what this looks like.
59:17
So,
59:18
again,
59:18
it was like he couldn't he couldn't be in the house or out of
59:23
the house.
59:23
SPEAKER_03: He couldn't be.
59:24
He was supposed to be in water and not in water on a horse,
59:29
but not on a horse.
59:31
SPEAKER_03: You know, there was like three or four other things.
59:33
SPEAKER_03: So it was all these factors.
59:34
SPEAKER_03: So he goes through this crazy kind of thing where he's.
59:42
SPEAKER_03: Sort of has one leg on a goat and one leg in a bathtub.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: It is a comedic scene.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, how's all that going to happen?
59:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:57
SPEAKER_03: And so out of the bushes comes the lover, Gron.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_03: And he launches this year in a day spear.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't kill Lou outright, but he mortally wants him.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_03: And immediately Lou loses his humanity and becomes an eagle.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_03: And this wounded eagle flies off into the forest,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_03: followed by his uncle,
1:00:26
who is picking up pieces of necrotic flesh that belong to the
1:00:30
dying eagle.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_03: As he goes,
1:00:33
he finds the eagle up high up in a tree and he catches the
1:00:37
eagle as it falls and
1:00:39
SPEAKER_03: takes the eagle to the wizard and says,
1:00:43
SPEAKER_03: can you,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_03: can you heal my nephew?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_03: And the wizard does that.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_03: It takes a long time, but he recovers.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_03: When he comes back, he's sovereign.
1:00:57
He's no longer dependent on the kindness of strangers or the
1:01:02
whims of his uncle.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_03: He avenges his death.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_03: He kills Gron.
1:01:09
He changes his wife into an owl,
1:01:13
I think,
1:01:15
and sends her off into eternity.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_03: And he becomes a king, a sovereign.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_03: So here it is.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_03: He has passed through all of these betwixt and between,
1:01:32
SPEAKER_03: sort of has a name,
1:01:33
SPEAKER_03: sort of doesn't,
1:01:36
SPEAKER_03: earned his weapons,
1:01:37
SPEAKER_03: maybe not.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_03: The whole thing about not in the house, not out, all this kind of stuff.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_03: And he's now, I mean, it's a dismemberment, right?
1:01:49
SPEAKER_03: It's a dismemberment and a rememberment.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_03: It's a death and a rebirth.
1:01:55
And when he passes through all of the nebulousness and the
1:02:02
betwixt and betweeniness
1:02:04
SPEAKER_03: of all of those various experiences,
1:02:10
SPEAKER_03: then he is his own man.
1:02:12
Yeah,
1:02:13
he's the one who's running the show on his life,
1:02:16
you know,
1:02:16
after that.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_03: And I think that,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_03: it's what it tells us about ourselves,
1:02:21
SPEAKER_03: and how we do that vacillation,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: where we say,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_03: like,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_03: oh,
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to create that and I can do this.
1:02:29
And then we talk ourselves out of it the following day,
1:02:31
and we lose faith in ourselves.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_03: And we, you know, we
1:02:34
SPEAKER_03: do this vacillation all the time.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: We see ourselves and then we don't see ourselves.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_03: We see ourselves the way we know who we truly are.
1:02:43
And then we begin to see ourselves the way our family told us
1:02:47
who we were.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_03: And it is not until we become sovereign, until we can remember that
1:03:00
SPEAKER_03: that we can become sovereign.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:03:02
SPEAKER_03: sovereignty,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_03: which is the center of the Celtic medicine wheel,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_03: interestingly enough,
1:03:06
SPEAKER_03: and it's there for a reason,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: it doesn't happen overnight.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_03: It has to come from a series of very,
1:03:14
SPEAKER_03: very difficult,
1:03:16
possibly sovereign choices and decisions that we make as we
1:03:22
move closer and closer
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: and closer to our own destiny,
1:03:26
SPEAKER_03: our own soul's yearning.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_03: And we become loyal to that.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_03: That becomes first and foremost for us.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_03: Not what our family wants, not what they convinced us we were, you know.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_03: And then we become loyal.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:03:40
no longer caught in that interesting kind of betwixt and
1:03:44
between of who are we
1:03:46
SPEAKER_03: really?
1:03:46
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I think that's Lou's dilemma.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_03: Who is he really?
1:03:54
SPEAKER_03: Is he human?
1:03:55
SPEAKER_03: Is he a bird?
1:03:56
SPEAKER_03: Is Arian Rod his mother?
1:03:57
SPEAKER_03: How did he come to be?
1:04:00
SPEAKER_03: Is that his real name?
1:04:01
SPEAKER_03: And it's just, I love that story for that, you know, for that reason.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, it's, I don't know.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I find such charm in these stories and in their wisdom.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: And that is funny,
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: you brought that story,
1:04:27
SPEAKER_00: because as we were talking before,
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: the image I had was of Lou in the whole scene of he's not in the water,
1:04:34
SPEAKER_00: he's not out of the water.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: And then you bring that story.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like a great coincidence,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: because right there I was thinking of him,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: like neither here nor there quite yet.
1:04:45
But as you tell the story,
1:04:47
I'm listening to it with fresh,
1:04:49
you know,
1:04:50
a fresh perspective.
1:04:52
One thing I do like about Celtic mythology is it's not such
1:04:56
easy interpretation.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: Not that mythology is easy,
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: but there are so many layers to the stories that I feel like whenever,
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: depending on the time that you hear the story,
1:05:08
SPEAKER_00: you might be like,
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: I didn't catch that part.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: This part fits with what's going on now.
1:05:15
And as you're telling this,
1:05:16
I'm thinking how interesting that he had to go through all
1:05:19
that.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: And in a way,
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: it's almost like leave behind whatever the family dynamic was,
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: not accepted by the mother,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: abandoned,
1:05:29
SPEAKER_00: if you will,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: no name.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: The wife is made for him.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not something he...
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: Truly had a relationship with doesn't sound like it.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes through all that.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: And I saw it was interesting before he's reborn again,
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: he goes back to being animal,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: wild again to that core.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_00: And then he can come back.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: full on,
1:05:53
SPEAKER_00: perhaps embracing both sides of himself,
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: the,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: the,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: the ego side and the human shape size side.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's interesting that I think when we are in,
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: in that,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_00: in this space in between the liminal,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: that's what's happening.
1:06:11
Like parts are going,
1:06:12
new parts are coming in,
1:06:14
but they're not quite yet in full on in synergy.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: It takes time for it to cook.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:20
And there are phases that we might go through before we even
1:06:26
come back fully again,
1:06:30
you know.
1:06:32
And then the other thing I was thinking about from early on in
1:06:35
our conversation
1:06:37
SPEAKER_00: that you said,
1:06:38
SPEAKER_00: aren't we all in a threshold all the time?
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: And I keep thinking,
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: we are,
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: because part of me thinks there's life and death,
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: whatever was before,
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: whatever's after.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: There's a big one.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole life.
1:06:54
And then we can break it down into phases of our lives,
1:06:57
be it biological phases of our lives.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: Could it be psychological phases of our lives, midlife, adolescence?
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: And then you have events happening, loss of job, divorce, health.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_00: whatever it may be.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: You have those.
1:07:12
And then you have seasonal times as well that kind of inform
1:07:16
our day-to-day.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: And then there are the daily thresholds.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: You go out to work, you come back home, you know, the sleep and the wake.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: There's so many bits.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: These big thresholds, small ones.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_03: Where do you place your focus?
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's that.
1:07:37
SPEAKER_00: And...
1:07:40
SPEAKER_00: And so when I was thinking about doing the podcast,
1:07:44
SPEAKER_00: what I was envisioning,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_00: granted it's still finding its legs,
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: it's in its own transition,
1:07:50
SPEAKER_00: is I keep thinking and then working with clients too.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_00: people have this,
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: we all have this sort of,
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: we want to change,
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: but sometimes we don't want to change.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_00: We contemplate the change, we don't wanna cross it.
1:08:05
And then sometimes we're just thrown across the threshold and
1:08:07
we gotta swim.
1:08:10
But collectively,
1:08:11
I kept seeing more and more a sense of gripping with fear for
1:08:18
the change.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's a lot more messages about challenge rather than,
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: wait,
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: how can we relate to this differently rather than that?
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I was thinking about.
1:08:33
How can we engage with the threshold differently rather than
1:08:37
always fearing it?
1:08:41
SPEAKER_00: Granted,
1:08:41
SPEAKER_00: I do believe that there are dwellers at the threshold that may say,
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: they're like bouncers.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: Wait a second.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_00: Are you sure you want to cross this?
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you got the right password?
1:08:54
But in general,
1:08:55
I think how could we relate to it differently rather than just
1:08:59
gripping?
1:09:00
with like bracing for impact all the time or wanting to just
1:09:06
jump from one phase to
1:09:07
SPEAKER_00: the other immediately,
1:09:08
SPEAKER_00: quickly,
1:09:09
SPEAKER_00: without any.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_03: That was the inspiration.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_03: We have to we have to consider the factors of time and place,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_03: because we may be able to see it,
1:09:23
SPEAKER_03: but we're not ready to be it or it's not the right time for
1:09:30
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, the world, our destiny, or it's a matter of place.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_03: Is there a place that's made for us that we're ready to step into?
1:09:48
SPEAKER_03: Has that place not been provided yet?
1:09:52
SPEAKER_03: And so we have to wait for that moment.
1:09:55
SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's the extra challenge
1:09:58
SPEAKER_03: of being in the body on the earth,
1:10:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:03
SPEAKER_03: in a place that where there is time,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:08
SPEAKER_03: there isn't time in the other world.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_03: you know, it's a different kind of consideration.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_03: And I mean,
1:10:15
SPEAKER_03: just like,
1:10:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:17
SPEAKER_03: when,
1:10:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:20
SPEAKER_03: the characters would go to the land of the Fae,
1:10:24
SPEAKER_03: there's no time there,
1:10:25
SPEAKER_03: but there's also instant manifestation,
1:10:28
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:28
SPEAKER_03: like whatever the store is provided just like that.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: And,
1:10:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:33
SPEAKER_03: and then there's,
1:10:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:35
SPEAKER_03: there's one particular story of,
1:10:37
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:37
SPEAKER_03: a character named O'Sheen who goes with a fairy princess to,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_03: the land of the Fae, Tirna Noh.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_03: And he gets homesick.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_03: You know, he wants to come back.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_03: She says,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_03: well,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_03: I'll give you my magic steed,
1:10:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:52
to take you across the sea and across the mists so that you can
1:10:58
go back home.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_03: But don't get down from the horse.
1:11:03
SPEAKER_03: And so he comes back to Ireland on this on her magic steed.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_03: He's looking around.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't recognize anything.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_03: And so he starts asking people,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_03: he's looking for his father,
1:11:15
SPEAKER_03: Finn McCool,
1:11:16
SPEAKER_03: and this band of warriors that Finn McCool led called the Fianna.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_03: He's looking for the Fianna.
1:11:24
And people are like,
1:11:25
oh yeah,
1:11:26
I remember stories about them way back when,
1:11:29
you know?
1:11:32
SPEAKER_03: And ultimately he finds out that 300 years have passed.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_03: You know, everything that he knew is gone
1:11:40
SPEAKER_03: And he does at one point make the error of getting off the horse.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_03: We knew that was gonna happen.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_03: And he becomes 300 years old immediately and is dying.
1:11:57
And so they send for a priest to come and give him his last
1:12:04
rites or whatever.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't want anything to do with that.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_03: He just wants to hold Ireland in his hands.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_03: He reaches down and grabs the soil and holds on to that.
1:12:17
And that's the ancient way,
1:12:18
the connection to the land,
1:12:19
the connection to the mother.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_03: That's all he needs at that point.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, time has a lot to say about what we can step into and
1:12:37
SPEAKER_03: how we can manifest our pure potential, how and when.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps it might not be in this very life, kind of like him.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_00: It might be in another time and another incarnation.
1:12:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:12:55
And when we move out of time,
1:12:57
we become less troubled by that because now we're in eternity.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_03: Eternity is just eternity.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you know what I mean?
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: It's like when we're in the body and it was like,
1:13:10
what do you mean I have to wait three more lifetimes in order
1:13:14
to accomplish this?
1:13:16
SPEAKER_03: That's not going to bother you when you're out of the body.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_03: It's going to be like, oh, yay, more learning.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think our full,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:28
the bigger existence is like if we think about our own lives as
1:13:33
a 24 hour cycle.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you've got to do certain things during the day.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_00: You're thinking you want to do certain things on that day.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: But maybe, you know, right now you're having lunch.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're just enjoying your lunch.
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: Scrolling on the phone.
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes maybe our individual lives is a bit like that.
1:13:52
Maybe my individual life right now as Vanessa is the equivalent
1:13:56
of me having lunch
1:13:58
SPEAKER_00: in the bigger arc.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_00: of my full life.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_00: So I might not get to do the thing I want to do.
1:14:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking about it in my because right now in this life,
1:14:08
it's the equivalent of having lunch and then I'm going to move
1:14:11
into something else.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was trying to spread it out.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: An afternoon walk or dinner.
1:14:19
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe, yeah.
1:14:20
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's a life where you're dealing with traffic.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_00: Who knows, you know?
1:14:26
But I kept thinking about,
1:14:28
like,
1:14:28
maybe that way I won't feel so annoyed or exasperated.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_00: But like, oh, I'm not doing my thing, you know?
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe the time is not quite yet.
1:14:41
SPEAKER_00: And we don't know.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a lot to say.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_03: Time is the wild card in the betwixt and between, isn't it?
1:14:50
SPEAKER_03: It is.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: And it seems like it's the thing that's most bendable, perhaps.
1:14:56
SPEAKER_00: Because in these stories,
1:14:58
SPEAKER_00: you go from situations where time is out of time,
1:15:03
SPEAKER_00: but it's also,
1:15:04
SPEAKER_00: it moves in a different speed than what we're used to.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_00: So time is the ingredient that changes, it seems to be.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_00: More than the landscape.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_03: I mean, to some extent, the landscape is eternal.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's the archive.
1:15:24
It has the memory of everything that has ever been and the
1:15:28
potential for everything
1:15:29
SPEAKER_03: that will ever be.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_03: And it's the main player in that.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how I think about
1:15:43
I think,
1:15:44
you know,
1:15:44
the threshold,
1:15:45
the limit,
1:15:45
I think there is its unique geography.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_00: I think about it.
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: It's unique geography.
1:15:51
Once we cross something,
1:15:53
we are in a place,
1:15:54
it's a bit like traveling to a foreign country.
1:15:57
You have to pay attention differently because you're not in the
1:15:59
same space where
1:16:00
SPEAKER_00: you normally would drive to work without really paying attention.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_00: So I think that when we're going through phases in our lives,
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:16:09
SPEAKER_00: the landscape is different.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_00: It's not the same.
1:16:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I got to pay attention.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_03: You're talking about the internal landscape.
1:16:19
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_03: All the time.
1:16:22
And sometimes we don't spend enough time investigating and
1:16:29
exploring the inner landscape.
1:16:32
I find that when I work with clients,
1:16:35
and this is not a commentary on these clients,
1:16:39
but
1:16:41
I can tell how much work someone has done on themselves by how
1:16:47
easily I can get
1:16:48
SPEAKER_03: into their inner landscape.
1:16:52
You know,
1:16:52
is it a well-worn path or is it kind of grown over with a lot
1:16:57
of thorns and pimples?
1:17:01
SPEAKER_03: You know, hack your way through.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_03: And I really,
1:17:08
SPEAKER_03: it's not a comment on anyone in my saying that,
1:17:11
SPEAKER_03: but that is something that in doing the work that I've done,
1:17:14
SPEAKER_03: I have observed.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_03: And we're not really taught.
1:17:19
We're so taught to be externalized and what the world thinks of
1:17:23
us and how we're
1:17:24
SPEAKER_03: playing on the world and on the world stage.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_03: And, you know...
1:17:31
SPEAKER_03: You know,
1:17:31
we we aren't really spending the time on really getting to know
1:17:36
who we are,
1:17:37
SPEAKER_03: what we care about,
1:17:39
SPEAKER_03: what we long for,
1:17:42
SPEAKER_03: who we really are,
1:17:45
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:17:45
SPEAKER_03: underneath all that conditioning.
1:17:47
SPEAKER_03: And.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think that that's really encouraged.
1:17:54
I mean,
1:17:54
some of us are lucky enough to have been born as very
1:17:59
introspective people.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_03: Like myself, I've always been that way.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_03: And maybe I became that way because of...
1:18:09
you know,
1:18:09
the placement I had in the birth order and was kind of left on
1:18:13
my own.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_03: All my siblings are much older than I am.
1:18:17
And,
1:18:19
you know,
1:18:19
I was kind of a bit of a loner or,
1:18:22
you know,
1:18:23
an afterthought or something.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
1:18:27
SPEAKER_03: And so that was hard in a way,
1:18:31
but the gift of it was that it made me so introspective and so
1:18:36
self-examining.
1:18:38
SPEAKER_03: And without that, I couldn't be doing the work I'm doing now.
1:18:42
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: It is.
1:18:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_00: It can be easy to pinpoint when they don't have much in there.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_00: They haven't explored it.
1:18:56
SPEAKER_00: We need a little gardening, you know, to get through.
1:19:01
SPEAKER_00: For me, the way it shows up is when I can notice they can't.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: They keep on the surface on the choppy waves of the problem.
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: You cannot ask the deeper questions.
1:19:12
SPEAKER_00: It can't go a little...
1:19:16
little dive just a little dive you know and they can imagine or
1:19:21
something different
1:19:22
or i have a have a hard time asking bigger questions but they
1:19:27
get stuck on up here
1:19:29
so if you ask it again they continue to circle around the same
1:19:34
presenting the
1:19:35
larger context you know i mean it's one of the things that you
1:19:40
know i try and i
1:19:43
SPEAKER_03: talk to people about, you know, that it's not personal.
1:19:49
SPEAKER_03: A lot of what experiences we have and trials and tribulations,
1:19:59
SPEAKER_03: we're working through our life,
1:20:01
SPEAKER_03: yes,
1:20:01
but we are working through the larger context of the human
1:20:04
condition and we are
1:20:05
SPEAKER_03: playing our part in that.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_03: It's a very, very important part that we're playing.
1:20:13
And we can't move humanity forward if you're not going to move
1:20:17
you forward.
1:20:18
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's plain and simple.
1:20:21
SPEAKER_03: And and so,
1:20:23
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:23
SPEAKER_03: if you if you don't see it as,
1:20:25
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:20:26
being dealt a bad hand and instead being given certain specific
1:20:31
challenges that
1:20:32
SPEAKER_03: you,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_03: in fact,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_03: signed on for.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_03: to explore in this life,
1:20:38
and then to lend your growth and your exploration to the larger
1:20:45
growth of the human
1:20:47
SPEAKER_03: condition and of the earth.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_03: It's taking us back to what we were talking about before,
1:20:51
SPEAKER_03: because we do all have a vested interest in that.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_03: It's ultimately why we're here.
1:20:57
SPEAKER_03: We're here for the earth, not so much our own individual experience.
1:21:03
SPEAKER_03: There is always that look to the global world.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_03: the global evolution of this place.
1:21:10
SPEAKER_03: And the other thing that,
1:21:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:21:13
SPEAKER_03: sometimes I encounter is this idea of like,
1:21:17
SPEAKER_03: well,
1:21:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:21:18
SPEAKER_03: I hope I get it right this time so I don't have to come here anymore.
1:21:23
SPEAKER_03: You know, like, believe me, you are here because you want to be here.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_03: You want to be here.
1:21:30
SPEAKER_03: We love the earth and we love this experiment
1:21:37
SPEAKER_03: you know, this human experiment of the earth.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_03: And that's why we're here.
1:21:44
SPEAKER_03: We're here out of love.
1:21:46
SPEAKER_03: And it's not,
1:21:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:21:50
SPEAKER_03: this idea of,
1:21:54
SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
1:21:54
SPEAKER_03: looking around and seeing how everyone else has it easier than we do.
1:22:01
Yeah.
1:22:04
SPEAKER_03: You know, I have a good friend.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_03: She always used to say, everybody's pushing the same rock.
1:22:09
SPEAKER_03: I love that expression.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_03: It's so true.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_03: Everybody's got their own karma,
1:22:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:22:16
SPEAKER_03: their own challenges,
1:22:17
SPEAKER_03: their own blind spots,
1:22:21
SPEAKER_03: their own heartache.
1:22:23
SPEAKER_03: Everyone's
1:22:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's what holds us together.
1:22:27
SPEAKER_03: It's why when you tell a story, everybody hears it.
1:22:30
SPEAKER_03: They hear it in a different way,
1:22:32
but everybody understands what that hero is up against and how
1:22:39
heartbroken he is
1:22:40
SPEAKER_03: because he lost his true love or whatever,
1:22:45
SPEAKER_03: or she lost her true love.
1:22:48
SPEAKER_03: It's a whole...
1:22:55
SPEAKER_03: and it's a whole,
1:23:00
SPEAKER_03: what do I want to say,
1:23:01
SPEAKER_03: like a realm or a world of communication,
1:23:03
SPEAKER_03: the human condition.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_03: We all understand what it is to be humiliated,
1:23:09
SPEAKER_03: to lose something that we value,
1:23:14
SPEAKER_03: to lose a loved one.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_03: You know, we all get it.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_03: And that common language is the common language of stories.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_03: I think that's really how we best learn.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:23:31
SPEAKER_03: That's why I do fiction.
1:23:34
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's lots and lots of shamanic books on the shelf.
1:23:38
SPEAKER_03: Lots of really good shamanic books out there.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to add to the pile.
1:23:44
SPEAKER_03: how to explaining what is shamanism, how to journey, you know.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to tell a story because it's stories that really transform us.
1:23:56
SPEAKER_03: You know, because stories give us a place in the story.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_03: We're in it.
1:24:02
SPEAKER_03: We're in it as soon as we start reading it or start listening to it.
1:24:05
SPEAKER_03: We're a character, whether we realize it or not.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_03: You know, we're part of the crowd scene.
1:24:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, we're
1:24:14
SPEAKER_03: We have all those people standing in the back,
1:24:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:24:19
SPEAKER_03: kind of pretending that they're having conversations.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_00: We're the extras.
1:24:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, tell us a little bit about this new one, The Hungry Sea.
1:24:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just the title alone is very evocative.
1:24:32
SPEAKER_03: Well, The Hungry Sea is taken from a line of a poem by William Yeats.
1:24:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:24:39
SPEAKER_03: William Butler Yeats, W.B.
1:24:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeats,
1:24:41
SPEAKER_03: and who was an Irish poet and writer and also was very,
1:24:47
SPEAKER_03: very invested in bringing back the old stories,
1:24:52
SPEAKER_03: Celtic lore.
1:24:55
He was very instrumental in that and bringing back stories
1:24:58
about the Fae and so on.
1:25:03
SPEAKER_03: So that's where the title comes from.
1:25:07
SPEAKER_03: And it's a metaphor throughout, you know.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:25:12
SPEAKER_03: the other thing about the sea,
1:25:13
SPEAKER_03: first of all,
1:25:15
SPEAKER_03: in the Celtic way of seeing and being,
1:25:18
SPEAKER_03: the sea was,
1:25:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:25:21
SPEAKER_03: was certainly a place of pure potential.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_03: It was, you know, an element unto itself itself.
1:25:31
SPEAKER_03: you know, and it held all the mystery of the world.
1:25:37
SPEAKER_03: It held all the potential of everything, you know.
1:25:41
And so there's lots and lots of stories about the sea and about
1:25:47
journeys into the
1:25:48
SPEAKER_03: sea as being places of discovery.
1:25:54
SPEAKER_03: And so you have all these tales that are called
1:25:59
SPEAKER_03: Imrima,
1:26:00
that are stories about different seafarers who went out to sea
1:26:05
to answer a question
1:26:07
SPEAKER_03: or to locate something or to discover something.
1:26:10
SPEAKER_03: And they would have all these stories.
1:26:13
SPEAKER_03: kind of adventures as they went from island to island, you know.
1:26:17
So this whole idea of the sea being a place of discovery and of
1:26:22
hidden mystery and
1:26:24
SPEAKER_03: of the place that you go when you need to answer the unanswerable.
1:26:30
So it is a story about a woman who loses her 10-year-old son
1:26:36
and her husband in a
1:26:38
SPEAKER_03: fatal car accident.
1:26:41
SPEAKER_03: She happens to be a shamanic practitioner.
1:26:44
SPEAKER_03: And so it gives me as the writer access,
1:26:51
SPEAKER_03: clear access to the other world,
1:26:53
SPEAKER_03: because I can have her journeying within the context of the story,
1:27:01
SPEAKER_03: going to the other world.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_03: You know, she's helping other people as she's trying to heal herself.
1:27:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:27:08
And so you see several journeys that she takes for different
1:27:12
characters in the book.
1:27:14
So you do get a sense of,
1:27:17
you know,
1:27:17
this presence of this other world that's always right there.
1:27:21
SPEAKER_03: You know,
1:27:22
just as it's always right there in her life and in her work and
1:27:27
in her search for
1:27:28
SPEAKER_03: her son,
1:27:28
SPEAKER_03: it becomes right there for the reader.
1:27:31
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:27:32
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:27:34
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:27:34
SPEAKER_03: you can call it sort of,
1:27:35
SPEAKER_03: I guess,
1:27:36
SPEAKER_03: magical realism,
1:27:37
SPEAKER_03: but it's really just the shamanic journey.
1:27:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:27:42
I mean,
1:27:42
I think it's because I know,
1:27:43
you know,
1:27:44
there it is in the story,
1:27:45
the journey of grief.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:27:47
how do we that is a massive liminal space is a very rich
1:27:52
landscape that we have no
1:27:55
SPEAKER_00: control of how long we're going to traverse it.
1:27:58
SPEAKER_00: What's going to show up in that landscape?
1:28:02
SPEAKER_00: Here she is not guiding just herself through her own healing,
1:28:06
SPEAKER_00: but she's guiding us,
1:28:08
SPEAKER_00: the reader,
1:28:09
SPEAKER_00: in seeing those elements,
1:28:11
SPEAKER_00: too.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
1:28:13
SPEAKER_03: and also the other characters,
1:28:14
SPEAKER_03: because really every character in the book is grieving something.
1:28:20
SPEAKER_03: You know, they're all in a betwixt and between.
1:28:22
They're all having to let go of something that seems virtually
1:28:28
impossible for them to let go of.
1:28:34
SPEAKER_03: And they're all caught in that conundrum of longing and sacrifice.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_03: You know, having to forego the connection to something that is...
1:28:53
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely precious and unattainable.
1:28:58
And then slowly,
1:28:59
I guess,
1:29:00
moving towards how they relate to it differently.
1:29:03
SPEAKER_00: Because you mentioned in the story,
1:29:05
she relates to her son now on the other side through these
1:29:09
stories that they shared
1:29:11
SPEAKER_00: when he was alive.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: And now later they get to...
1:29:16
SPEAKER_00: have that tether through the stories.
1:29:19
And I'm sure the relationship is changing as they're,
1:29:22
he's on the other side,
1:29:23
she's here.
1:29:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:29:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:29:27
SPEAKER_03: And it's his connection to her.
1:29:28
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he, he is a character in the, in the book as well.
1:29:34
And he is reminiscing and talking about his mother and his
1:29:42
relationship with her
1:29:44
SPEAKER_03: through the stories that she told him.
1:29:47
SPEAKER_03: And at one point in the book,
1:29:49
SPEAKER_03: in the beginning,
1:29:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:29:51
SPEAKER_03: these are the stories that my mother told me.
1:29:53
SPEAKER_03: It's all I have of her now.
1:29:55
SPEAKER_03: And so it is the connecting piece.
1:29:59
And it is through the stories that she eventually is able to
1:30:06
connect to him.
1:30:08
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:30:08
SPEAKER_03: You know,
1:30:09
he's waiting in the stories for her because he figures if she
1:30:15
if she can find me
1:30:16
SPEAKER_03: anywhere,
1:30:16
SPEAKER_03: she's going to find me there.
1:30:19
SPEAKER_03: And so the meeting place, he stays.
1:30:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he stays in this land, this land of story.
1:30:25
SPEAKER_03: It's the land where all stories are born.
1:30:28
This is part of also the Celtic way of seeing and being that,
1:30:35
you know,
1:30:35
they believe that music.
1:30:39
SPEAKER_03: And song and story all came from the other world.
1:30:44
And they were sent to help humans to persevere through their
1:30:52
trials and tribulations.
1:30:56
SPEAKER_03: And so that's where he is.
1:31:00
SPEAKER_00: You definitely touched on something that I've...
1:31:04
SPEAKER_00: I really feel about these times we need we have very good stories.
1:31:09
SPEAKER_00: We need better.
1:31:10
SPEAKER_00: These good stories,
1:31:11
SPEAKER_00: these better stories to be even more present for us,
1:31:15
SPEAKER_00: because when I kind of look around,
1:31:18
SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of there's a lot of poor stories being fed to us.
1:31:22
It's like it's like being fed McDonald's when we could be
1:31:26
eating a much better meal.
1:31:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm interested in.
1:31:30
SPEAKER_00: Where are the,
1:31:31
these stories that are much more nourishing to our imagination
1:31:35
so that we can move
1:31:36
SPEAKER_00: through these moments collectively and individually.
1:31:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
1:31:41
SPEAKER_03: I'm right with you on that.
1:31:43
You know,
1:31:43
I mean,
1:31:43
there's,
1:31:45
I I'm an avid,
1:31:46
avid reader,
1:31:47
voracious reader,
1:31:49
love to read and,
1:31:51
um,
1:31:53
SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't stick with stories that don't have richness to them.
1:31:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:31:59
SPEAKER_03: they might be a captivating story for some people,
1:32:01
SPEAKER_03: and oftentimes they're very popular books that many people praise and,
1:32:07
SPEAKER_03: oh,
1:32:07
SPEAKER_03: I just love this.
1:32:08
SPEAKER_03: And if it's lacking richness and depth,
1:32:14
SPEAKER_03: the characters are lacking that,
1:32:17
SPEAKER_03: or that the story is lacking a certain depth.
1:32:23
SPEAKER_03: it's like what you say, it's like McDonald's.
1:32:25
It's not,
1:32:25
it's not nourishing me in the way that I go to reading to be
1:32:31
nourished.
1:32:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's why I am the voracious reader that I am.
1:32:35
SPEAKER_03: And, um, so I don't know.
1:32:40
SPEAKER_03: I, I agree with you.
1:32:41
SPEAKER_03: I think that there's a lot,
1:32:42
SPEAKER_03: a lot of,
1:32:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:32:44
SPEAKER_03: kind of bestseller type,
1:32:47
SPEAKER_03: uh,
1:32:48
SPEAKER_03: books out there that,
1:32:50
SPEAKER_03: um,
1:32:52
you know,
1:32:52
they're lacking in the kind of sustenance that we need right
1:32:57
now as human beings.
1:32:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:33:01
SPEAKER_00: And I would add to that, I love stories where there is transformation.
1:33:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like, please show me where the transformation is happening.
1:33:08
I do not like stories,
1:33:09
be it books or TV or movies,
1:33:11
where it just ends and it's in the same way.
1:33:16
SPEAKER_00: They just made poor decisions after poor decisions and we end it.
1:33:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, we have that in the news.
1:33:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to read or watch this.
1:33:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a there's a cynicism in that, isn't there?
1:33:27
It's really not sharing this kind of which I think both of you
1:33:34
and you and I agree
1:33:35
SPEAKER_03: on sharing this idea of,
1:33:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:33:40
SPEAKER_03: that human beings are capable of
1:33:46
SPEAKER_03: Of such incredible depth and transformation and learning.
1:33:51
SPEAKER_03: And that's, you know, kind of the best part of life.
1:34:00
SPEAKER_03: And shouldn't that be in our stories?
1:34:02
SPEAKER_03: Shouldn't that always be there?
1:34:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:34:04
SPEAKER_00: And please do not call those stories, you know, the human conditions.
1:34:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's just one facet.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_00: Let's move on.
1:34:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a bigger condition.
1:34:13
SPEAKER_00: There's more.
1:34:14
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm looking forward to.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully there's more of coming out, more and more.
1:34:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, as we come...
1:34:25
SPEAKER_00: Say that again?
1:34:26
SPEAKER_00: I hope you find that in The Hungry Sea.
1:34:29
SPEAKER_00: I hope so, too.
1:34:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I remember the first book.
1:34:32
SPEAKER_00: This is good.
1:34:33
SPEAKER_00: One thing I was really impressed this year just reading romance novels,
1:34:37
SPEAKER_00: how much of these stories,
1:34:40
SPEAKER_00: even when it was not in a synopsis,
1:34:42
SPEAKER_00: it was about grief.
1:34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:34:44
SPEAKER_00: So underneath the so-called fluff, there was a lot of grief.
1:34:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:34:50
SPEAKER_00: And it really took me to my own,
1:34:53
SPEAKER_00: the way I envisioned the journey of the landscape of grief is,
1:34:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:34:57
SPEAKER_00: there's,
1:34:58
SPEAKER_00: I think of the three sisters,
1:35:00
SPEAKER_00: death,
1:35:00
SPEAKER_00: lady,
1:35:01
SPEAKER_00: death,
1:35:02
SPEAKER_00: lady,
1:35:02
SPEAKER_00: grief,
1:35:03
SPEAKER_00: and lady joy.
1:35:04
SPEAKER_00: But you have to spend time with grief before you get to lady joy.
1:35:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:09
SPEAKER_00: In my mind.
1:35:10
SPEAKER_00: So I see that it's interesting.
1:35:12
SPEAKER_00: It was all kind of woven.
1:35:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:35:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, um,
1:35:17
Because that's one of the things that we notice most strongly
1:35:21
when we're in grief
1:35:21
SPEAKER_03: is the absence of joy and our inability to find it.
1:35:29
SPEAKER_03: In the Celtic tradition, the way in which...
1:35:36
SPEAKER_03: The energy centers of the body are envisioned as not in chakras.
1:35:41
SPEAKER_03: It's in cauldrons.
1:35:42
There's three cauldrons,
1:35:43
one in the head,
1:35:44
one in the heart,
1:35:45
and one in the belly.
1:35:47
And the cauldron of the heart is called the cauldron of motion
1:35:50
because it's swaying
1:35:51
SPEAKER_03: constantly with the joys and sorrows of life.
1:35:53
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
1:35:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's wonderful.
1:36:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:36:01
SPEAKER_00: So to wrap it up,
1:36:04
SPEAKER_00: I have these five rapid fire questions, actor studio style.
1:36:11
SPEAKER_00: Just answer from your answer from your belly.
1:36:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm ready.
1:36:16
SPEAKER_00: So what everyday routine transports you to the other world?
1:36:25
Think of it when you're not doing work for the clients,
1:36:27
you know,
1:36:27
just for yourself.
1:36:30
SPEAKER_00: Reading.
1:36:31
SPEAKER_00: Reading.
1:36:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_00: I would say the same.
1:36:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:36:38
What drives you crazy about how Celtic spirituality gets
1:36:42
portrayed in pop culture?
1:36:47
SPEAKER_03: That the depth of it is missed.
1:36:51
SPEAKER_03: That it's, you know, it's like what you were saying about reading.
1:36:55
SPEAKER_03: It's presented in a fast food kind of way.
1:36:58
SPEAKER_03: And that's actually very upsetting to me.
1:37:08
SPEAKER_03: and infuriating because there's so much depth there.
1:37:11
SPEAKER_03: It's like gobs of it.
1:37:13
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like you bang into it everywhere you turn.
1:37:16
SPEAKER_03: It's like, how are you missing this?
1:37:21
SPEAKER_00: There's not even a mention of it.
1:37:27
SPEAKER_00: What's your guilty pleasure?
1:37:29
Well,
1:37:30
a guilty pleasure,
1:37:31
quote unquote,
1:37:32
that might surprise people that you have.
1:37:36
SPEAKER_03: Right now, it's a particular brand of popcorn.
1:37:42
SPEAKER_03: Lesser evil popcorn.
1:37:44
SPEAKER_03: It has a face of a Buddha on it.
1:37:47
SPEAKER_03: I think I've seen that.
1:37:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's like a daily thing.
1:37:52
It's like as soon as I finish one bag,
1:37:54
I run out to the grocery store to get another bag.
1:38:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:38:02
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
1:38:03
SPEAKER_00: Just think a lot of the steps work.
1:38:05
SPEAKER_00: And then at the end, I just need my chips.
1:38:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just need my chips.
1:38:08
SPEAKER_03: At least it's called lesser evil.
1:38:10
SPEAKER_03: Lesser evil popcorn with Himalayan pink salt.
1:38:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's delicious.
1:38:16
SPEAKER_00: Heaven.
1:38:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:38:20
SPEAKER_00: What threshold did you recently cross that scared you at first?
1:38:27
SPEAKER_03: I think it still scares me.
1:38:28
SPEAKER_03: I'm a new grandmother.
1:38:31
SPEAKER_00: Congratulations, yes.
1:38:33
SPEAKER_03: It's something that I have been longing for.
1:38:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean, my boys are both well into their 30s.
1:38:43
SPEAKER_03: And many of my friends...
1:38:47
SPEAKER_03: I have friends who have great-grandchildren.
1:38:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, what?
1:38:50
SPEAKER_03: How's that happening?
1:38:53
And so it's something I've been longing for and looking forward
1:38:57
to for many years.
1:38:58
SPEAKER_03: And along he came, they surprised me at Christmas.
1:39:03
SPEAKER_03: They put a picture of his sonogram in my Christmas card.
1:39:07
SPEAKER_03: And so...
1:39:12
You know,
1:39:12
it's that kind of thing,
1:39:14
you know,
1:39:15
where here we go,
1:39:16
talking about thresholds again.
1:39:19
SPEAKER_03: And it's that kind of thing where,
1:39:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:39:23
SPEAKER_03: it's something that I've longed for,
1:39:27
SPEAKER_03: and yet I'm trying to find a place where,
1:39:31
SPEAKER_03: I haven't really established a foothold in his life,
1:39:34
SPEAKER_03: nor he in mine,
1:39:35
SPEAKER_03: because he's tiny and he doesn't live with me.
1:39:39
SPEAKER_03: And I don't see him a whole heck of a lot.
1:39:44
And so I think what I'm afraid of,
1:39:50
of not having enough of him in my life or,
1:39:58
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, being being estranged from him or something.
1:40:02
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
1:40:03
SPEAKER_03: That's what I fear.
1:40:05
SPEAKER_03: You know, I like that.
1:40:06
It's not going to work out,
1:40:09
you know,
1:40:10
but that's that's my most recent threshold.
1:40:15
SPEAKER_00: And it's a big one.
1:40:16
SPEAKER_00: And I and I like the example,
1:40:17
SPEAKER_00: not just because,
1:40:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:40:18
SPEAKER_00: it's your grandson,
1:40:19
SPEAKER_00: but it's also sometimes even the things we long for.
1:40:23
when it when it's finally here,
1:40:26
it still takes time for us to understand where's our footing?
1:40:29
SPEAKER_00: Where's how we navigate this?
1:40:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:40:34
SPEAKER_03: You know,
1:40:35
SPEAKER_03: in in a way that I can look back and feel gratified,
1:40:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:40:41
SPEAKER_03: I that my life had meaning in his life.
1:40:46
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
1:40:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:40:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, the last one.
1:40:50
SPEAKER_00: So the name of the podcast is Romancing the Threshold.
1:40:54
SPEAKER_00: So when you hear that, what comes to mind?
1:40:58
SPEAKER_03: I think,
1:40:59
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:40:59
I think it's probably the best way that we can approach
1:41:08
thresholds is to romance
1:41:11
SPEAKER_03: them.
1:41:13
And I think that that's in alignment with how the ancients
1:41:15
would have looked at it.
1:41:18
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a time of pure potential.
1:41:22
SPEAKER_03: You don't know how it's going to shake out.
1:41:26
SPEAKER_03: Don't hang back.
1:41:30
SPEAKER_03: You know, get in there and romance it.
1:41:33
SPEAKER_03: Talk it.
1:41:35
SPEAKER_03: Right?
1:41:35
SPEAKER_03: Court it.
1:41:37
SPEAKER_00: That was kind of the inspiration for me.
1:41:39
SPEAKER_00: It was like, let's approach it with the curiosity of lovers.
1:41:43
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:41:45
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:41:47
SPEAKER_00: Not white knuckle it.
1:41:50
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:41:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:41:52
SPEAKER_00: So Jane, thank you so much.
1:41:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:41:55
SPEAKER_00: It was a really rich conversation.
1:41:58
SPEAKER_00: I knew I liked the Celtic and the ancients.
1:42:02
SPEAKER_00: I knew it.
1:42:04
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of what you said is like, oh, yes, this is true.
1:42:08
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for sharing the story of Lou as well.
1:42:11
SPEAKER_00: and the richness of your book.
1:42:15
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be on the show notes,
1:42:16
SPEAKER_00: of course,
1:42:16
SPEAKER_00: but I really invite people to check out your work.
1:42:20
You've helped me in different phases of my life and different
1:42:24
thresholds I've crossed.
1:42:26
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very grateful for that as well.
1:42:29
SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome.
1:42:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:42:33
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for crossing this threshold with me today.
1:42:37
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for inviting me.
1:42:41
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me in this threshold space today.
1:42:44
SPEAKER_00: As you move through your week,
1:42:46
SPEAKER_00: I invite you to notice the betwixt and between moments,
1:42:49
SPEAKER_00: that pause before you speak,
1:42:51
SPEAKER_00: the twilight between day and night,
1:42:54
SPEAKER_00: the breath between inhale and exhale.
1:42:58
SPEAKER_00: What if you lingered there instead of rushing through?
1:43:01
SPEAKER_00: And here's something to sit with.
1:43:04
If the ancestors and helping spirits truly need us as much as
1:43:08
we need them,
1:43:10
SPEAKER_00: What are you being asked to complete?
1:43:13
SPEAKER_00: What healing,
1:43:14
SPEAKER_00: what creation,
1:43:15
SPEAKER_00: what collaboration is waiting for someone with a body,
1:43:20
SPEAKER_00: your body,
1:43:21
SPEAKER_00: to make it real?
1:43:22
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep courting the mystery.
1:43:25
This is me signing off and reminding you that every threshold
1:43:29
is a love story waiting to unfold.