Latest / Skin Anarchy / Simone Oliver, Global Editor In Chief of Refinery29

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Simone Oliver, Global Editor In Chief of Refinery29 · Skin Anarchy

0:00
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0:44
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0:52
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1:05
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1:13
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1:25
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1:26
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1:32
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1:35
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1:41
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1:49
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1:54
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2:05
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2:06
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2:07
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2:13
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2:14
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2:24
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2:27
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2:34
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2:36
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2:43
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2:54
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3:00
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3:02
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4:06
SPEAKER_02: I hope you guys love this episode coming up with Simone Oliver, who is the editor-in-chief of one of my all-time favorite magazines, Refinery29.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: It is such a unique publication, and I've been so honored and humbled to interview her.
4:19
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4:29
SPEAKER_02: Alright, guys, talk soon.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: This is Ekta, and wow, do I have a guest today?
4:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm a huge fan of this publication.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: I have been uh for a very, very long time, I think since I first saw it.
4:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, so this is very surreal for me.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: Um so without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Simone Oliver, who is the editor in chief of Refinery29.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Simone.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thank you.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: Happy to be here.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's such an honor to host you.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: I love all of the work that you guys do um at refinery.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm a huge fan, and I just I can't imagine the amazing career you must have had.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: So that's really where I want to start is if you can tell us how you got into publishing and editorial and journalism and stuff that if you can walk us down memory lane.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Happy to share.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I started in undergrad um as an English major and um quickly, you know, like very early on in my academic career, I realized that um I wanted to do a little bit more, um, something different from the traditional kind of academic um curriculum, right?
5:49
SPEAKER_01: That English majors often have.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to learn a different way of writing.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And um, so I checked out the school paper, and that's when I realized, okay, wait, this is this is just different, you know, like it's still using the English language, um, it's still a lot of what I enjoy, but um it's very different from Shakespeare and Chaucer and all the all the friends, right?
6:10
SPEAKER_01: And um so that was kind of how I think like my first taste um of journalism.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: There were a lot that things that happened leading up to that, but I would say like as far as the real pivotal moments um that pushed me in this direction, that definitely um that's where I kind of like give the credit, right?
6:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I started working at my school paper and I it was very much like peer mentorship, right?
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Where I was uh learning from the editor of the paper and he kind of taught me like this is a lead, this is a nut graph, and um I was doing all like literally writing for all sections, right?
6:45
SPEAKER_01: So I covered the the women's track team.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Um I uh, you know, covered entertainment, ludicrous was coming to campus.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm dating myself, but that was the story I covered.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Um and then uh what else?
6:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, campus crime, going and talking to the police and campus police and dorm people and just you know understanding, okay, what happened here?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: There was a robbery, really?
7:05
SPEAKER_01: What happened?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, all that sort of stuff, right?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And um eventually, you know, I really started to get the hang of it, but I was still on track as an English major, which really kind of pushes you in the academia realm of things.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so sorry to your audience because I am congested.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Luckily, it's not COVID.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: So I sound, I feel like I sound like a cartoon character right now, but trying to give you my whole story.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, by the time I got to my uh junior beginning of senior year, I realized wait, I this is what I actually want to do, some sort of you know, work in publishing.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I didn't have the undergrad um like list of internships that a lot of my peers had had, you know, especially during the summers or during um in when school was in session.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: So I started to panic, you know, and I really felt like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: So I guess I'm applying to teach for America, you know, and like I want to be a teacher, I want to do research.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: My minor was child development.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: So I thought maybe I'd write there and um do research and perhaps write books, right?
8:11
SPEAKER_01: But again, not really having a clue, but just trying to find my way, as many uh undergrads, graduating undergrads do.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: And um, I had heard through a couple of different sources, as well as seen a flyer in the School of Communications.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, I saw a flyer about the New York Times starting a new um boot camp slash internship program, and it was called the New York Times Student Journalism Institute.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: And this would be their first class of students.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: You had to apply, show your clips, um, write essays, you know, it was a very rigorous um application process.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: But the end game was that they would choose 30 students from all across um the states, and you would go down to another school's campus, turn it into a newsroom, and create report, edit, um, create a uh a publication from scratch, so basically a student version of the New York Times.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And I applied at the very last minute because I was still unsure and I was also very intimidated.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I did it.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: I I had to pay actually to send my application overnight, which I'm sure, you know, was great, especially when you're a broke student.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Um and um I got in.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I was one of the 30 students who um, you know, ended up spending two straight weeks with New York Times uh editors and learning under them, um, but also collaborating with other uh journalism, communications, English major, you know, photographer, um page design uh students, and we all put a product together and it was it was wonderful.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: I love that you had this like you know, amazing like education aspect of it where you really got to like kind of figure it out before you got into like you know, just the job aspect of it.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't see that much in education, that's why I mentioned it.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: It's it's really refreshing to hear that they gave you this hands-on, you know, aspect of learning, like this is you know how you do it, what you want to do.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, we didn't even have that in science.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: I remember that's pretty cool.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, so what about like refinery?
10:12
SPEAKER_02: I know refinery isn't like a super old publication.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: It's like a very up and coming, like ever since I've you know been in college, like I've seen it everywhere.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I always wondered about the the really unique take on, I guess, reporting and especially like with beauty and journalism in that area.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to speak about like the overall vibe and the overall feel of the publication, how that fits in with like what you like to do as a reporter and a journalist.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, how does everything mesh together for you?
10:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um it, you know, it's all storytelling.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: And so for us, um, we we see ourselves as a service brand.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, refineries started in 2005 as um a shopping brand, right?
10:53
SPEAKER_01: They really were an alternative to your very mainstream popular um publications that kind of championed a lot of the same brands, you know, especially luxury brands.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: And um refinery started as a shopping guide to New York City for them.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of you know up-and-coming um boutiques designers, you know, they they definitely covered, you know, the big established people as well, you know, global voices.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: But um, it was really such a discovery mechanism for me when the brand first started.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: So that's where like I initially fell in love with refinery.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think coming to the brand and taking the helm, um, that was really important to me, especially when it came to style and beauty, um, really being a place where people feel like, okay, I'm gonna get the real reporting, but I also have, you know, there's a there's an irreverence there to any sort of status quo that um, you know, we approach conversations in a very raw but relatable way.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there is no the only standard we have is really just serving our audience through rigorous, you know, storytelling and intimate storytelling.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean that definitely shines through, but it's also like the aspect I think of like the pop culture and like I feel like refinery, you guys just do things very um, I guess more of a real way, if that makes sense.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: Like it's I appreciate that.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: I see articles that are just not like they're they're almost like raw, and you get the information and it's like great writing.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I just I really appreciate it, you know, as a reader and as a as a huge fan.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: But um, I want to, you know, I want to learn about like in terms of being an editor-in-chief, like what is it like?
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Because I know we have movies and stuff like Devil Wears Prada, and you know what I mean?
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Everyone else just like uh mysticize this uh concept, right?
12:36
SPEAKER_02: Of what it must feel like.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to like just talk about some of your favorite moments or some great stories that you've covered um recently.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear from you about that.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Um so I mean, I've started at refinery in the pandemic.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: So I think my experience as a global editor-in-chief of refinery um is probably a unique one, right?
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's a lot of like gloss in the job that's probably missing because of the pandemic, you know, to be truthful.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: But I think um one thing I've tried to do is make sure that everyone in the team has been okay and that that that um, you know, in supporting them, they can bring that into their work and their storytelling.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: So um we recently relaunched um R29 style, and um, that was really important for me to do when I came to the brand because um it we've done so much more, though the type of coverage that refinery has done, the scope I mean, um has really widened over, you know, since its inception.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: It's got it started as a fashion brand, and then next thing you know, it was like Trump, Trump, Trump, you know, and then it was like, you know, money diaries.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: And so the scope ended up being pretty wide.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: And when I came, I really just took a hardcore look at um where what do people think of when they think of refinery?
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Where are we breaking through?
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Where do we, where have we developed authority, right?
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that trust from our audience.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's really important.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: So um literally just earlier this week, we three days ago, um, we launched R29 style.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: And and and R29 style isn't one thing, right?
14:07
SPEAKER_01: It's really an ecosystem where you can find fashion, beauty, shopping information from refinery, right?
14:12
SPEAKER_01: You can discover new brands, um, you can buy from those brands on site.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, you can find us on TikTok.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: We relaunched our Instagram, which had um been on hiatus for a while.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, you get to know our editors.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important to form a relationship between, you know, the people behind the bylines, behind the scenes, behind, you know, all the content that we're producing, the newsletters, all the above, um, and really create that relationship, right?
14:37
SPEAKER_01: And you kind of know, like, all right, this is so-and-so, they're writing this beauty story, but um, you know, I kind of can I can recognize them and you feel more of a sense of connection with them in that case.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'm working on that as well.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: But we just launched um 29 Big Styles, Big Style Ideas.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is a franchise that we do seasonally, um, and it includes um just kind of the trends and in beauty and in personal style and in shopping.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: And I encourage everyone here to check it out.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: And it's really about what's inspiring you right now, right?
15:10
SPEAKER_01: And the editors um across refinery, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: And when you think about what's inspiring you, it's definitely not the same things that were inspiring you pre-pandemic, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And so now that we're two years in, um nothing is the same when it comes to self-expression.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And that is wildly exciting to us.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when we look at at like you said, pop culture and the influences there, but also looking in inward, you know, and and spending a lot of time alone and spending a lot of time with just like your your nuclear family, whatever, whatever the last two years has been to you.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, there have been so many shifts in, especially in the world of beauty, in the world of fashion, and world of shopping and how we shop and we think about how we dress.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Dressing is very intentional, right?
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we we don't think it is and we don't acknowledge that it is, but it is intentional.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so whether it is whether you choose to just live in sweats forever, long before the pandemic, you know, whatever it is, it's still an intentional act and it's not neutral.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And that um for us, like really popping the hood on that is something that we dedicate um a lot of time to.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I mean, it definitely shows and I love that you, you know, you guys are just staying true to that of, you know, we're we're um we're journalists first, you know what I mean?
16:22
SPEAKER_02: And I just kind of going back to what you said about people getting to know the editors, like that's yeah, it's important because you want to know who's giving you advice, who's giving the real professional advice here.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: And I know that in on past episodes, I've you know, um, kind of this topic has come up where it's like, well, are editors losing their influence um in this huge realm of social media, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Where everyone is like um an expert and everyone is like doing something where they have an audience.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's it makes me just kind of uh wonder because growing up, I mean, I got all my advice from magazines.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, for me very interesting.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting shift.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, especially when it comes to like just representation and making sure that, you know, the information people are getting is truly curated.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what I worry about in a way as a consumer, right?
17:09
SPEAKER_02: About how people are consuming media.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: So I would love for your opinion on that in terms of, you know, when when it comes to the engagement you have with your users, like is it, you know, what kind of differences do you think you see between this and like someone who's on TikTok?
17:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, like I just want to like clarify for people, because everyone's like, you know, let me let me actually say this too.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm asking Simone this for everyone listening because I actually got a comment a while ago and people were like, Well, video is the new thing, you know, if you're not on video, what the hell are you doing?
17:40
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't know, telling stories of real people, like, you know, like moment for me where I was like, well, wait a minute, is social media the new um big magazines, right?
17:51
SPEAKER_02: Like the TikTok roles.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: That's why I want your opinion on that.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Like this, I mean, it's in my humble opinion, it's it's been that way, right?
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Like it isn't binary.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: I think there's this idea of like, it's either text or it's TikTok, you know, and it's like, no, it can be text, tick tock, newsletter, podcast, magazine, you know what I mean?
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Netflix, it could be it's it's linear.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: It's it's really, we have so many options now, right?
18:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think um, this is something we talk about all the time, you know, at refinery, is who what are you what audience are you trying to reach?
18:23
SPEAKER_01: And what is the best way to tell this story?
18:25
SPEAKER_01: What are you trying to accomplish in this story?
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And when you're thinking about that, right?
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, say it's like, I want to tell people about farm farm to bottle formulations and skincare, right?
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, well, is this like a general population story?
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Do you not does it not matter?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Not every story has to be like this is specifically targeted to, you know, Gen Z, right?
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, not everything has to be that rigid, but just put just doing the exercise in your mind.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Who are you trying to reach with this information, right?
18:52
SPEAKER_01: It could be a personal essay, it doesn't have to be something that's like deeply reported.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: It can be like, this is an important story, an experience that I want to share, um, and that people can learn from it, whether it's there, whether whether they can relate or whether that they just want to be informed, right?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: And so again, who are you trying to reach?
19:08
SPEAKER_01: What are you trying to accomplish?
19:09
SPEAKER_01: And then after that, the follow-up question is where is the best place to tell the story, the best format in order to really reach the people you're trying to reach, right?
19:18
SPEAKER_01: And so um it's really important that again, in my humble opinion, that people really think through those questions as they're publishing, because sometimes the best place to tell that story is on Instagram and a carousel.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it should probably be a documentary that you try to, you know, take to a studio and develop, right?
19:38
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it should be a straight up 800-word article that is very voicey and well reported and has in a brilliant headline, right?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Um and sometimes it's all of those things, right?
19:47
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times those things are interconnected, right?
19:49
SPEAKER_01: You get some documentary idea based off of an article that you reported, um, you know, someone that the the personal story in the article, and you're like, you know what, this this actually deserves a whole lot more space and time.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And um, this could probably be developed into something else, right?
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I'll use an example that's even more specific again for our 29 big style ideals, which we just launched this year.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: It's a trend report, right?
20:16
SPEAKER_01: But how we how it how it lives, it lives differently in different places.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: So if you go to art.com um and you're poking around and you get to the style section and you see um we have this beautiful, beautifully designed, beautifully written and reported scroll through that's like right on your phone.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: You could be standing there waiting for your train, you can be, you know, in your bed, you can be in between meetings, whatever it is you know you have going on in your life.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: It's very digestible, very snackable.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: But again, you'll be informed and you'll be entertained when you're done, right?
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And then if you go to TikTok, what we did was we pulled out a couple of those trends and kind of tested um some of the newer trends or trends that might be might be new for people, we've tested those for you because we know that we have the audience's trust at refinery.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And so we kind of do the work for you.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: That's part of us being a service brand where if you're curious about that trend and maybe even a little bit skeptical, we'll go test it for you on tech, we publish it on TikTok, publish it on Instagram.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And then in our newsletter, I wrote a letters, excuse me, an editor's letter in our newsletter, our our newsletter audience um, you know, looks different from our TikTok audience, right?
21:22
SPEAKER_01: So the way I'm speaking to that audience is gonna be a little bit different.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm writing them a letter in a very intimate way.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then within it, I have, you know, I pulled out a couple of trends from our big style ideas um franchise, but then I also make it shoppable in newsletter.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So if this is interesting to you, I've curated our curation, but it also made it actionable for you and close that loop.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's just an example of how it's the same 29 big style ideas franchise, but depending on what environment you're in, it's gonna be a different experience to cater to those segments of audiences.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that be that is actually brilliant, Simone.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: But seriously, like I um, you know.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard that before in terms of like really adapting to what platform you're utilizing, you know, to deliver the same information.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's something that I, you know, you're the first uh, you know, editor that has ever brought this up because everyone else I've talked to is like, well, you know, you just have to know your audience.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, You're like, what does that mean?
22:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, no, I mean, I I here's the thing though, I I have been wanting to ask you this.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie, I've been very just intrigued by how amazing, you know, of a job you're doing at refinery.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Because I, you know, you're obviously, you know, as a fellow woman of color, you know, I know that this conversation has come up again and again about how women um, you know, that have like just diversity in general, right?
22:45
SPEAKER_02: Just women are not in the right roles.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: They're not high up enough, you know, to make decisions.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: And I love seeing, you know, intelligent women, regardless of what color we are, in these roles, you know, such as yours or beef.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to get some feedback from you about how, you know, you you view um, you know, this idea of media and news for just general consumers, because it there's a huge difference in the way that a refinery presents information, such as I'll give you an example, when I go onto the website and I click on any story, any story at all, you're gonna see a very like equal spread of like faces and representation.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: It's not like a all only black girls or only white girls or only any, it's like a very nice, like just melting pot of faces that consumers see, and you're not, you don't feel alienated.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: You see what I'm saying?
23:33
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's such a different experience than a lot of publications.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: And so um, I can't help but attribute that to the idea of like, you know, they've put the right people in the right places, and you know, you guys are really a well-thought-out team.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: So I would love to get your insight on what it's like in the news and you know, the beauty publication world um in terms of just bringing this forward, like the true accessibility, the representation, inclusivity, all of it.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, I have to say um just a deep thank you from the bottom of my heart for just acknowledging that.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's important to every single editor, writer, person at uh refinery, right?
24:15
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, to your point, um that was something that was missing.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: And it was important to me to bring that to the brand because I'd already fallen in love with the brand, right?
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Like you already had me, right?
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, but as you know, a black woman coming up in the industry and someone who loves style, loves beauty, loves, you know, thinking about money in new ways and in lifestyle and and in um, you know, just kind of adults in general.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, I definitely didn't feel seen for most of my um, you know, career just in terms of like the content that's putting putting out there by by brands that have really big platforms, right?
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And so um the fact that you can see it and and just going on the home page, I think that's just like I want to go back to my team and be like, guys, they noticed, you know, like it's everything we talk about all day.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And the thing about refinery is like tokenism for us is a dirty word.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Like we we're not about that life.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Um for us, it's it's really truly um reflecting the world that we live in.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like a saying that people throw around very often, but really don't put action behind it.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And there is no perfect ratio of like, let me get a redhead, let me get an able-bodied person in this shot.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, that's not.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: It's just are you reflecting the stories that that um uh people are experiencing in this world?
25:32
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, a lot of that does come from the inside, our team of um folks is is more diverse, you know, than when I arrived, I'll say that.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's not even as diverse as I want it to be, you know, that's more of a function of like, you know, just the limitations that happen to be out of my control.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but when we do have those limitations, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'll give you an example.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, we call on people in the community, in different communities, to help us edit stories or help tell the stories that we feel like, you know what, I am um not of this community.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think I needed some other eyes on this story, right?
26:09
SPEAKER_01: And like we always tend to do that.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: Um and sometimes, like, yeah, it's it's it's like remarkable how we all have that mechanism um at different levels of our team and different roles in our team.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: And that's one thing that I think I'll always cherish about R29.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'll have like a call with with one of the senior editors, and they're like, you know what, Simone, I really feel like it's so like two other people should look at the story because, you know, as a as a cis white woman, I just want to make sure that I'm really capturing the experience here and I'm I don't have any blind spots.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, people don't really hear that on calls, right?
26:45
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not a normal thing that that has been normal.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: I should say it's not a thing that's been normalized in our media culture, in our culture in general.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: But it's very like just a Tuesday at refinery.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think it comes through in our stories, and we don't always, you know, we don't do everything perfectly by any means.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: And I think what we're good at is like we go back and we watch that video or read that piece and be like, oh, we okay, okay, that was a blind spot, you know, and it's like we share that, and and it's not to just like criticize each other, it's so that hopefully we don't leave anyone out again the next time we publish something, right?
27:18
SPEAKER_01: If that makes sense.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um yeah, I'll I'll leave it at that.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: But I I appreciate you noticing, and it's something that is wildly, deeply important to us um as a brand to um make sure that we are inclusive, not for inclusive sake.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: It is to kind of help the rest of the world um reframe its thinking so that it's not about who we're including because our society left them out.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, let's just turn that on its head, right?
27:48
SPEAKER_01: So even like the writers, the editors, the people shooting our stories, the illustrators, um, all woven throughout the brand.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we want many different perspectives.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: And that's like the most rare thing to ever see in this like whole realm, I think that I'm I'm talking about with the publication.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: That is extremely rare.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: And I absolutely just I'm in love with the fact that you you guys are doing it this way and that you have this approach.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, let's be honest.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: I have talked to, you know, certain amazing women, um, you know, that were very much on the same page as what we're talking about here.
28:26
SPEAKER_02: And everyone said, like, you know, when you grow up in a house where, you know, most women of color, people of color, we grew up in houses where you can't make a mistake.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: You better, you know what I mean, make sure everything is done right.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that cultural aspect of it, um, which is really what I believe represents Americans in general, right?
28:43
SPEAKER_02: This idea of like we're all from different cultures and we all have so much to bring in terms of work ethic and the way that we approach thoroughness.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: And these are all the things that really play into creating this inclusivity, this diversity um in what we're putting out there for people to see.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, that's really where I get very, you know, interested in the conversation around, well, are the right people in charge?
29:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, are the right people in positions?
29:08
SPEAKER_02: It's more of like, well, do they have the right upbringing and the culture and that, you know, are they bringing that to what we need, like that?
29:16
SPEAKER_02: And I I don't see that, you know what I mean?
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And it's really, really interesting to see how you guys are are really approaching just every aspect of you know, beauty, fashion, everything.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: It's it's very relatable, you know, and that that relatability I think comes from this idea of well, we have to approach thoroughness and true journalism from multiple angles and different perspectives, which really yeah.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, you know, I really want to I want to actually ask you about um, you know, there's not enough career advice out there at all for I think young women who are, you know, young professionals, they're coming up, they might not have, you know, all the resources that a lot of their peers have, which is something I, you know, I grew up with that in medicine.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: I was a mentor.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: I was always looking for advice.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to get your take on that, you know, as far as rising up in the rank of editorial and publishing, like how does that work and any advice you have?
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I'm gonna self-promote, which is like a new muscle that I'm developing.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, we just started a new series at refinery called Get the Job, right?
30:18
SPEAKER_01: And um we external, we we feature all types of um talent, you know, throughout the industry.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, women, nine binary, underrepresented people who are just like killing it in wherever they come from, um, whatever parts of the industry they may come from.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: And um, they decided to feature me first, which made me really uncomfortable, but now that I see the finished product, it's wonderful.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'll send it to you and and your listeners as a follow-up.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: But in it, um, we talk about sort of the three things to include in a cold email, right?
30:51
SPEAKER_01: I think one thing that's important just for anyone at any level um is establishing and cultivating relationships, right?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think for especially young people um while they're still in school, um, and then kind of those early years when they don't have a lot of experience, a lot of ambition, but not a lot of experience, um, relationships are really everything, right?
31:12
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't even matter the industry that you're in.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And so reaching out to people and introducing yourself.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: But then when you do that, you know, any kind of cult, cold DM, cold email, cold LinkedIn message is going to feel for a lot of people really uncomfortable.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I encourage people to kind of push themselves back, you know, push push themselves beyond that.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: And um, but when you do reach out to people, be really clear and intentional about what it is that you want, you know, and so it's saying, hey, um, you know, I love specificity, right?
31:46
SPEAKER_01: I love, you know, the thing that you do at Nike really inspired me in this way.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm an intern here, or I just started my first job here, or whatever your job is.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I really want to talk to you about this specific thing.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you have 15 minutes for like a Zoom coffee or a coffee or whatever, um, you know, to talk to you about this, or I have a problem trying to solve, right?
32:04
SPEAKER_01: And maybe they will, maybe you won't.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Most of the time you might get rejected simply because of people's bandwidth, right?
32:09
SPEAKER_01: But start developing that muscle.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: And then when you do get on the phone with them or you're able to meet them for coffee, um, again, bring that same specificity to you know the conversation, because oftentimes a lot of these people don't have a lot of time to offer, right?
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Even though they they may want to in their hearts, but realistically, it just isn't always feasible.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: So bringing that, you know, three things to the conversation if you're having coffee with them that you want to get out of it, and even saying to yourself, all right, when I'm done having coffee with you know this person, when I walk away, what is it that I'm hoping to walk away with?
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's sometimes, you know, what it like some of the smartest leaders and executives will do is like, okay, I'm meeting with this young person or person from a different industry or whatever, and I'm gonna have those same goals too, you know.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's a two-way street, but I think especially for people who tend to be less experienced, um, I think creating a framework for yourself so that um, again, you you lead with attention.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And then the second part of all of that is staying in touch, right?
33:10
SPEAKER_01: We always say stay in touch, stay in touch, right?
33:12
SPEAKER_01: But like how many of us really do?
33:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think like that is something that uh requires consistency and requires effort.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And um it doesn't have to be cumbersome.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: I think one example is is say you are, you know, in your second job and you're still very new in your career, but you've done some projects that you're pretty excited about and you want to share.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you can share across social and share with your family members, but like that's also a good time to email that person that you met at a conference or your mother's friend who you really don't really talk to, you're kind of intimidated by, but like, you know, you know that you know they're really impressive and you admire what they do.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Like you know, you can email them and say, hey, um, it's been a while since we talked or whatever.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Use use the holidays as as milestones, right?
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Happy New Year.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, I hope everything's well.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: I saw that thing that you did or heard about that thing.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on that.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: I also wanted to share with you a couple of like highlights on my end.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: I did this project at work that I'm really excited about.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: My contribution was X.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Hope we could get coffee this spring when you're available.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Would love to send you some dates when you have a good time.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Hope all is well.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: Best person.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Like to me, that is a short and sweet, but very intentional.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I again, like, I don't have all the answers, but that's it, that's something that has worked for me over the years.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: And it allows me to constantly um cultivate relationships and not just reach out to people when I need something or in between jobs or you know, I'm in a crisis.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: You understand?
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: No, that's that's amazing.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that that was really, really good advice.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: I love all of that.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: I completely, completely agree with you.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that is very, very solid and and a real layout.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: So everyone listening, if you're interested in editorial editorial and journalism, please listen to Simone's advice because everything she said, yes, I 100% agree with.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: I know I had the same or similar, you know, experiences going through like the medical field.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: It's like reaching out, making sure I'm not even lying, Simone, with us with our applications, it's like if you don't reach out like 18 times, like you're never gonna land a residency.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Like that kind of.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Like just keep trying.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, it sounds like cliche, but like please keep trying.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes, 100%.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and I really love that um people are now realizing just how difficult it is to be a journalist and to really make it because I mean, just in the last decade, and and correct me if I'm wrong, I've seen this like huge um, you know, change in in a good way of just quality over quantity.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I've really noticed that, you know, the bar is set higher now for journalism, um, you know, by far, and especially in a world where we live with where we're dealing with all sorts of opinions, especially, you know, keeping it on topic for the podcast, skincare, right?
35:49
SPEAKER_02: For example, everyone's an expert, everyone's got something to say.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: But then for editors, we do have this higher bar set in terms of we want the real deal, we want you to, you know, to deliver this.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: So I guess if people can start training for that kind of mindset early, that would be, you know, just very beneficial for their careers.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: So I I love that you offered that advice.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, now I want to round up the episode because I do have some rapid fire questions for you.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're just they're very easy, don't worry.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's a fun little thing I want to start doing here.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm sure everyone's really curious uh in terms of like what you have, you know, around you and stuff.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: So let me get started.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, the first one, uh, how many unread emails do you have right now in your inbox?
36:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh let me see.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: It's an embarrassing amount.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: Is it over a thousand?
36:42
SPEAKER_01: It is.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: It is.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, um, next one, favorite moisturizer right now.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: Uh dermalogica active moist.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, makeup item.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: It could be anything like eyeliner or anything.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, lip balm all day.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: This is in the in the winter.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: In the in the summer, it's definitely um uh a cobalt blue eyeliner or mascara.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: That's that's my jam all day.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: I just I remember like, you know, when we all used to wear like the white or the cobalt.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yes, the white.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: I remember that.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: What can we always find in Simone's purse or desk or car or anywhere you need something like immediate access to, like a beauty product or skincare product, anything like that.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I have I have construction worker hands, man.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Lotion all day.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: All day.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Usually keels.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: I need something that's kind of thick.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, yeah, some kind of hand because it's like the hand sanitizer that sits next to the hands, you know, sits next to the lotion.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, I I have to be able to moisturize shortly after.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm the same way.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Moisturizer.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: Every brand I interview, I'm like, do you guys have a hand cream?
38:07
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's really cool.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, those were just some I had, and I'm I'm so thankful.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being such a good sport.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And um absolutely thank you again for having me and just kind of being so in tune with the brand.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: And we hope, you know, others uh see what you see because we really are committed to serving our audiences and you've just been so great.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: So um this was this was such a highlight of my day.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and I love that.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: And yes, I'm a huge fan of Refinery 29, everyone listening.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: If you have not already like scoured the website and read every article, please, I really urge you go check it out.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, the whole, like I said, you know, as soon as you get onto the web page, it's like, oh, cool, these people look like me.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I belong.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: So I really urge all of our listeners, please check out the publication and leave any questions you have for Simone.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: I know that, you know, like I said, Devil Awares Prada and all these movies paint this like image of editor in chiefs.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to see what kind of questions do you guys have um, you know, going forward.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much, Simone.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: This has been such an honor.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: I really mean that.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: May May I make one last plug?
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is because I know your audience is very heavy, like beauty, you know, aficionados.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, R29 style on Instagram, find us there.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: I can even tag that.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: I'll tag that.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we'd love that, please.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: Definitely check them out.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: And also, huge shout out to Kirby Johnson because I know you guys just it's just sign Gloss Angels.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: I love the podcast, it's amazing.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so everyone listening, definitely check out Gloss Angels if you haven't already, which I'm sure you guys have, but I'm so excited to see what you guys do together.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be so good.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: And and just so everyone knows, like a little bit of context, um, Refinery just entered a partnership with um Gloss Angeles, and um they are Sarah Tan and Kirby Johnson.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Sarah Tan is also the beauty director um at Refinery.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: And so she's got you know her hands in both pots, and it's wonderful because she's driving the direction of our beauty coverage.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, but also fellow journalist uh Kirby Johnson is her partner crime on the podcast, and um, we're gonna be partnering.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: And what you see um now with their awesome podcasts is is gonna be more of that, and we're just gonna compliment, you know, what they're doing, and they're gonna continue to drive the editorial vision there.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: So so excited.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for for mentioning that.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Appreciate that.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm very excited, and I can't wait to see what's up and coming.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, again, huge shout out to Sarah and Kirby, and you guys are gonna do such great work.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: So I can't wait to see.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: Amazing, amazing.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: Well, I will be back listening.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Simone.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: This was wonderful.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: We are available on so many different platforms.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe.
41:02
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