Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #490 When is Old Enough, Actually Old Enough?

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#490 When is Old Enough, Actually Old Enough? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, kids who have parents who are actively involved, who
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  Speaker 2: are responsive, warm, nurturing, actively monitoring and.
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  Speaker 3: Aware of what their kids are up to.
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  Speaker 2: And by monitoring, I don't mean stalking, You're much less
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  Speaker 2: likely to have kids who are going to get up
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  Speaker 2: to no good or find themselves in harm's way.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm here with my
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  Speaker 2: wife and mum to our six kids.
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  Speaker 3: Kylie.
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  Speaker 2: There's a new show on Netflix, Kyli that everybody is
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  Speaker 2: talking about. We haven't had a chance to watch it
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  Speaker 2: properly yet, but I've watched a bit of the trailer
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  Speaker 2: and I can't wait.
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  Speaker 3: To get into it with the kids. The show is
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  Speaker 3: called Old Enough.
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  Speaker 2: In Japan, it would be called My First Errand, and
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  Speaker 2: the premise of the show is that, and it's been
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  Speaker 2: going for like twenty or thirty years in Japan. It's
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  Speaker 2: only just to Ripe on Netflix, but it's been going
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  Speaker 2: for decades in Japannel. The premise of the show is
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  Speaker 2: that the film produces the TV show producers ask parents
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  Speaker 2: to get their two year olds and their three year
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  Speaker 2: olds to leave the house, walk outside, cross the road,
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  Speaker 2: walk down the street, go to the shops, buy a
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  Speaker 2: couple of grocery items, and then bring them home.
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  Speaker 4: How old were the kids? On parental guidance?
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  Speaker 3: Who did that? We did that with.
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  Speaker 2: The youngest kids that we did that with were Sam
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  Speaker 2: and Rachel's kids, Sam Friday and Rach that day, and
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  Speaker 2: they had I think it was a five year old
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  Speaker 2: and a seven year old, and Sam and.
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  Speaker 3: Rach were freaking out.
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  Speaker 2: But even the parents of older kids were a little
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  Speaker 2: nervous about sending the kids down the road to the shops,
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  Speaker 2: even if it was only a few hundred meters, to
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  Speaker 2: buy the groceries or to pick up a leader of
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  Speaker 2: milk or whatever.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what this whole show is all about. And
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  Speaker 3: apparently two and three year old two and three year olds,
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  Speaker 3: it's adorable. It's absolutely adorable. So I thought, so, I
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  Speaker 3: wasn't two.
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  Speaker 4: But I remember as a five year old, yeah, walking
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  Speaker 4: around the block to the corner store to pick up
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  Speaker 4: milk or cream for mom at dinner time. That was
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  Speaker 4: pretty young.
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  Speaker 2: I funny to say that, I remember when I was
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  Speaker 2: about six years old, maybe seven. My parents had bought
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  Speaker 2: me this brilliant red BMX bike. I was so proud
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  Speaker 2: of my I think it was like BMX three thousand
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  Speaker 2: or something like that. And my grandma lived in Auburn.
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  Speaker 2: For those of you who are familiar with Sydney, Auburn
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  Speaker 2: today is a very different place to what it was
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  Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties when I was riding
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  Speaker 2: my bike up and down Cardigan Street, but I was
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  Speaker 2: asked my name, would give me a five dollar note
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  Speaker 2: and say, justin, I want you to go up to
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  Speaker 2: the corner store, which was, like, I don't know, it
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  Speaker 2: was four or five blocks away, and I would ride
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  Speaker 2: my push bike along the footpath to the corner store,
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  Speaker 2: where i'd buy her a packet of Winfield Reds for
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  Speaker 2: those people who don't know what Windfield Reds are because
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  Speaker 2: you're that young when he reads, were the cigarettes of
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  Speaker 2: choice for my grandma, or some Benson and Hedges Extra Mile,
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  Speaker 2: whatever it was. And then I would buy some mixed lollies.
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  Speaker 2: Twenty cents worth of mixed lollies, got you pocket full
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  Speaker 2: a lot, it's full of mixed lollies. And I would
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  Speaker 2: do that every other day. Not even Nane didn't ever
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  Speaker 2: think that there could be anything wrong with doing that.
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  Speaker 2: This was in the early nineteen eighties. Can you imagine
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  Speaker 2: doing that today?
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  Speaker 4: Well, even just thinking about a five year old walking
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  Speaker 4: to the corner store.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, just thinking of extending this. We've been living
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  Speaker 2: in this airbnb while we've been trying to move house
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  Speaker 2: from Brisbane to the coast, literally two hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 2: meters from the nearby coles, got across two streets, two
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  Speaker 2: busy streets to get there, and our eleven year old
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  Speaker 2: has been in heaven because we've been flicking to the
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  Speaker 2: credit card and saying, go get the groceries for tonight.
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  Speaker 3: Here's what's on the list. She's loved it. But have
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  Speaker 3: you ever sent the eleven year old with a seven
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  Speaker 3: year old?
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  Speaker 2: No, Wayne, That's what I'm saying, right, that's what I'm saying.
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  Speaker 2: So here we've got this TV show built on the
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  Speaker 2: premise that you can send two and three year olds
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  Speaker 2: to the shops or to wherever to run an errand Now,
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  Speaker 2: obviously there's some cultural realities here Australia, or if you're
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  Speaker 2: in New Zealand or the US and you listen to
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  Speaker 2: US now, the UK, our western nations are not structured
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  Speaker 2: the same way culturally as Japan. We're not cultural experts here,
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  Speaker 2: but we know a handful of things about this.
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  Speaker 4: Well. A few of the things that really stood out
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  Speaker 4: to me was that Japanese children are actually encouraged to
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  Speaker 4: say hello. There's a special greeting that they give as
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  Speaker 4: they walk past people. They're encouraged to say hello to strangers.
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  Speaker 2: Right, so they actively discourage the concept of stranger danger.
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  Speaker 2: And what I also am aware of because I've got
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  Speaker 2: a brother who lives in Japan for about a year
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  Speaker 2: or so, is there's an expectation that when children are
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  Speaker 2: on the street alone, that all of the adults around
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  Speaker 2: them are going to act as shepherds or chaperones. They're
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  Speaker 2: going to keep an eye on them, and there's like
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  Speaker 2: a community expectation. I don't know if this is nationwide,
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  Speaker 2: but it's certainly what my brother Tim experienced, where they're
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  Speaker 2: looking out for the kids.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, Japanese cities are built on the concept that
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  Speaker 4: every neighborhood should unction as a village that whole you know,
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  Speaker 4: it takes a village to grow A child really comes
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  Speaker 4: to play here. They surveyed fourteen countries, and Japan was
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  Speaker 4: the most likely to agree with the fact that other
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  Speaker 4: adults would watch out for other people's children.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: But most likely out of all did the survey that
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  Speaker 2: you found, did it say who were the least likely?
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  Speaker 4: Didn't? I didn't actually read that far into it. But
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  Speaker 4: they'll do things like have you know, neighborhood block parties
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  Speaker 4: so that they can build social networks so people aren't strangers,
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  Speaker 4: they know each other.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Perfect.
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  Speaker 4: But one of the things that really stood out to
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  Speaker 4: me was when they surveyed these countries ten and eleven
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  Speaker 4: year olds going to and from school. Yep, only fourteen
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  Speaker 4: percent of Japanese kids would go with a parent.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, you gotcha, yep.
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  Speaker 4: As opposed to the USA, where sixty five percent of
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  Speaker 4: kids ten and eleven year olds would be taken to
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  Speaker 4: and from school by their parents.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like, off you go, kids go
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  Speaker 2: to school, and so mum's the winner here, right.
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  Speaker 4: Freeze everyone up. Children have freedom.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this sense to parents, sense of autonomy, sense
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  Speaker 2: of capability.
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  Speaker 3: I love it.
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  Speaker 2: So let's have a conversation because we're not living in
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  Speaker 2: Japan and we don't have those same culture.
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  Speaker 4: You're not sending my three year old to.
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  Speaker 2: The shop, Well, fortunately we don't have one anymore. But
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  Speaker 2: I kind of missed the three year old age actually,
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  Speaker 2: but no, not going to send them to the park
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  Speaker 2: or the shops on their own. But even the seven
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  Speaker 2: year old, we're not sending her to the shops. Not
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  Speaker 2: going to happen, And if we did in Australia, chances
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  Speaker 2: are there'd be a knock on the door from somebody
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  Speaker 2: saying we need to have talked to you about your parenting,
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  Speaker 2: like charges might be laid, especially if it was an
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  Speaker 2: ongoing pattern. We've got to talk about this conversation around parenting,
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  Speaker 2: helicoptering and how much freedom.
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  Speaker 3: To give your kids.
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  Speaker 2: So there are laws in Australia that indicate, and I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to speak generally rather than getting in the nitty gritty,
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  Speaker 2: that parents must provide adequate care, supervision and protection of
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  Speaker 2: their children and if they don't, there will be intervention
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  Speaker 2: by the authorities. So if you were to let your three, four, five,
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  Speaker 2: six or seven year old to go to the shop alone,
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  Speaker 2: chances are that would happen, depending on where you are.
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  Speaker 3: I reckon.
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  Speaker 2: In some places you could send you five, six, or
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  Speaker 2: seven year old off to the shops, but most places
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  Speaker 2: not even going to happen. Not a chance. So how
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  Speaker 2: do we help our kids to develop freedom? How much
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  Speaker 2: freedom should we give them?
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: When and where?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And what are the benefits of doing This will answer
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: those questions and more right after the break. The twenty
• 7:36
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• 7:44
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• 7:49
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• 7:52
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• 7:55
  Speaker 2: and help her face these challenges head on. Available online
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: via video at a Happy Families webshop.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, I'm really curious
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  Speaker 4: about this because obviously I have a really strong preference
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  Speaker 4: that I'm not about to send my seven year old
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  Speaker 4: to the shops on her own. But there's also this
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  Speaker 4: intrigue around the idea of allowing our children enough autonomy
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  Speaker 4: for them to grow and to learn in a safe environment.
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  Speaker 2: So let's talk about these advantages. Research shows that when
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  Speaker 2: we hover over our children, when we become helicopter parents,
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  Speaker 2: when we make decisions for them and don't give them
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  Speaker 2: the scope to experience that freedom, the volition, the autonomy,
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  Speaker 2: what happens is a couple things. Number One, they don't
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  Speaker 2: develop competence. Like as parents, our job is to effectively
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  Speaker 2: make ourselves redundant in so many roles when it comes
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  Speaker 2: to raising children. We don't want to continue to have
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  Speaker 2: to help them to cross the road or get to
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  Speaker 2: school or whatever it happens to be as they get older.
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  Speaker 2: We want them to figure out how to do these
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  Speaker 2: things on their own. While ever we're helicoptering and hovering,
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  Speaker 2: our children aren't learning the skills necessary. They're not developing
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  Speaker 2: the competence to effectively manage themselves out there in the
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  Speaker 2: big wide world and what we need to be developmentally
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  Speaker 2: appropriate in the extent to which we pulled back. The
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  Speaker 2: best parents know that stepping back and saying give it
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  Speaker 2: a go, you'll be right. Those are the ones who
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  Speaker 2: generally have the kids who develop more independence.
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  Speaker 3: That's healthy.
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  Speaker 2: And the second major advantage, and you kind of touched
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  Speaker 2: on this in your initial statement, is the sense that
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  Speaker 2: I get to be in charge. Do you remember how
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  Speaker 2: cool it felt to be able to make those decisions
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  Speaker 2: for yourself? Do you remember the first time you did
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  Speaker 2: walk around the block on your own, or you did
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  Speaker 2: go to the park on your own. You feel like
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  Speaker 2: you're a big person. And that's so important from a
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  Speaker 2: self efficacy perspective. It helps our children to know that
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  Speaker 2: they can choose for themselves and navigate the world big
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  Speaker 2: big wins.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm wondering how do we work out because each
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  Speaker 4: child's different. So just because my eleven year old is
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  Speaker 4: quite capable and competent of walking two one hundred and
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  Speaker 4: fifty meters down the road to the shops doesn't mean
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  Speaker 4: that another eleven year old would be in that place.
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  Speaker 4: So as parents, how do we actually navigate that? How
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  Speaker 4: do we work out without having some arbitrary number placed?
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  Speaker 2: Well, we can't. Yeah, we can't put a number on it.
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  Speaker 2: And it depends on what you're asking them to do
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  Speaker 2: or what the children are asking to do. I love
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  Speaker 2: the story from Lenorsknazzi, the founder of the Free Range
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  Speaker 2: Kids movement who she was a journalist. She lives in
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  Speaker 2: New York City, had two sons. Her nine year old
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  Speaker 2: said to her, Mum, I want to catch the subway
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  Speaker 2: home on my own.
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  Speaker 3: It's only two stops. But you and we've been on
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  Speaker 3: the New York subway. I'm not letting my nine.
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  Speaker 2: Year old catch the subway on his or her own
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  Speaker 2: like that. It's a pretty intimidating place.
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  Speaker 4: But again, we're talking culturally, right, So this child has
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  Speaker 4: been the subway or on the subway all the time.
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  Speaker 4: It's familiar territory to.
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  Speaker 2: Them, precisely. Butnd and just say shut kid away, you go.
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  Speaker 2: Her and her husband sat down and said, well, that
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  Speaker 2: sounds like a pretty big deal, but we are excited
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  Speaker 2: that you wanted to Actually, they weren't excited. Her heart
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  Speaker 2: was pounding. But they talked about getting on at this stop,
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  Speaker 2: getting off it that stop. Here's the money, here's what
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  Speaker 2: you do if you get stuck, here's who you go
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  Speaker 2: to for help. They walked him through the whole thing,
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  Speaker 2: pre armed him ahead of time, and then said, okay,
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  Speaker 2: so let's do it this Sunday morning or this weekend
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  Speaker 2: or whatever it is. She wrote the article after it
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  Speaker 2: had happened, and it was published in one of the
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  Speaker 2: papers in the New York area, and she became a
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  Speaker 2: global sensation known as the world's worst mum for letting
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  Speaker 2: the nine.
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  Speaker 3: Year old do that.
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  Speaker 2: So clearly, in Japan it wouldn't be seen as such
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  Speaker 2: a bad thing. But in the United States, and I
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  Speaker 2: guess in Australia.
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  Speaker 4: It's sixty ten year olds.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly getting a ride with mom and dad.
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  Speaker 2: But I think the critical thing here is her son
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  Speaker 2: said can I And as parents, when our kids ask
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  Speaker 2: us if they can to the extent that it's possible,
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  Speaker 2: we want to say yes.
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  Speaker 4: So what about the parent who's going, Okay, my ten
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  Speaker 4: year old's come and he's asked me to do this.
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  Speaker 4: If I let him do that, what's going to be
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  Speaker 4: the next thing he's going to ask? And do I
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  Speaker 4: find myself providing him with freedoms that are just more
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  Speaker 4: and more uncomfortable and unsafe.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because there is that risk if we're not
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  Speaker 2: involved in their lives enough, if we're not monitoring, if
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  Speaker 2: they're just out there roaming the streets, they're going to
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  Speaker 2: become juvenile delinquents. Again, when we look at what research shows,
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  Speaker 2: the kids who have parents who are actively involved, who
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  Speaker 2: are responsive, warm nurturing, who are monitoring, actively monitoring, and
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  Speaker 2: aware of what their kids are up to. And by monitoring,
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  Speaker 2: I don't mean stalking looking over the kids shoulder saying
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  Speaker 2: what are you doing? Now?
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  Speaker 3: Where are you going?
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  Speaker 2: I mean monitoring as in, I know you said that
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  Speaker 2: you wanted to go for a play down at the park.
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  Speaker 2: Who are you going to be with? What are you
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  Speaker 2: going to be doing when we be home? How can
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  Speaker 2: I contact you? What will you do if there's a problem.
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  Speaker 2: That kind of thing, You're much less likely to have
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  Speaker 2: kids who are going to get up to no good
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  Speaker 2: or find themselves in harm's way. It's true, of course
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  Speaker 2: that sometimes some kids will use that freedom to push
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: the boundaries, but the majority of them won't.
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  Speaker 3: The majority of them will appreciate the trust because we
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  Speaker 3: have that higher level of involvement as well.
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  Speaker 2: Now it's not helicoptering, it's involvement, and that's the critical word.
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  Speaker 4: I'm thinking now about. You know, back in the day,
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  Speaker 4: our day, our parents didn't have mobile phones, Like literally
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  Speaker 4: we went off to the shops and they just had
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  Speaker 4: to hope and pray that we were going to come back.
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  Speaker 4: Our kids now pretty much will leave our front door
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  Speaker 4: with a mobile phone. We have tracking apps that we
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  Speaker 4: can kind of track where they are at all times.
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  Speaker 4: We can ring them on a whim. We have so
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  Speaker 4: much more convenience at our fingertips to allow our kids
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  Speaker 4: to have freedoms that we clearly had when we were younger,
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  Speaker 4: but the stress levels of our parents would have been
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  Speaker 4: significantly more.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes people will say, but what if something happens. Surely
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  Speaker 2: you can't let them go and do that, because what
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: if something happens? But you could ask that about anything.
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  Speaker 2: Should we go car today? I mean, what if something happens,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Should we catch that aeroplane and have that holiday we've
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: been waiting for for a couple of years because of
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: COVID Now that we've got borders open again, what if
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: something happens? Should I go surfing? Should I go for
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  Speaker 2: that bike ride? Should I? It doesn't matter what you choose.
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  Speaker 2: Something might happen, and if we live into that, it's
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  Speaker 2: an unhealthy way to live. We need to remember what
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: is developmentally appropriate for our children. But if our children
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  Speaker 2: are asking, and if we can provide appropriate supervision. Let's see,
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  Speaker 2: your child does want to walk to school on their own,
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  Speaker 2: maybe for the first two weeks you let them, but
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  Speaker 2: you walk fifty meters behind them, or one hundred meters
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  Speaker 2: behind them and just make sure that they can cross
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the road safely. Maybe you actually let them decide when
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: it's time to cross the road while you're standing beside
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  Speaker 2: them for the first five times, and as they've proven it,
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  Speaker 2: then you can stand ten meters back and give them
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  Speaker 2: just enough rope so they feel like they're acting independently.
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  Speaker 2: It's how we raise independent, competent children, and I reckon
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this TV show is great for encouraging parents to start
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: to consider what they can do to help their children
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: manage their own risks and grow up to be.
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  Speaker 3: More capable as a result.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: The Happy Famili's podcast is produced by Justin Roland for
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: If you want more info about how to make your
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: family happier, please visit us at Happy families dot com
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: dot au