Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Transitioning to Digital Seafarer Certificates, Baltic Sea Surveillance, and GPS Spoofing
Transcript
- Nick Chubb: one of the really important, like really fundamental distinctions that needs to be made kind of upfront is the difference between. digitalizing something, which is near enough just taking it from its analog form and making a digital copy of it to an actual digital transformation of a process where you can realize the genuine benefits of something being digital first rather than paper first. the opening to the report is an interview conducted as part of it talking to a master mariner who carries with him everywhere he goes a four kilo file of certificates. Raal: Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Undocked. Welcome to you, Nick Chubb. Nick Chubb: Welcome Raoul Harris. How are you? I feel like it's been forever since we did one of these. Raal: Yeah, the last time I saw you were in Athens, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it was a Nick Chubb: Yes, you're right. You're right. God, that feels like a long time ago. Raal: few weeks, a few weeks ago. And very nice it was too, the Digital Ship Summit. Of course we, I Nick Chubb: Yeah, how was it? How was it for you? Raal: thought it was great. Yeah, I really enjoyed it actually. someone was talking to me about this at Crew Connect, maybe we'll get into Crew Connect as well. But like you've got things like Crew Connect and... SMM and, and, North shipping these kinds of multi-day Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: everybody comes kind of thing, you know, those kinds of events increasingly, I find sort of tougher to kind of really focus because there's just so much goes on and it's such a marathon. And, and I find myself more and more gravitating towards these kinds of very specific one day as where you've got like one topic to focus on and, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: And one audience as well, that's the other thing is know, lot of these big shows, they could be parts of the programme, which are very tailored to individual groups. And the nice thing about the summit was that it was one crowd who had one set of concerns and really one agenda, which just lets you get into more detail, doesn't it really? Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was what I like. Obviously, I'm slightly biased, but I liked that Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: it was niche enough that you could get quite technical. Raal: And how close was it to your vision for the event? Nick Chubb: Yeah, I think we definitely hit the brief. mean, we caught quite a lot of flak for two reasons. One is that we made it quite And then two was that actually we made the decision to charge every attendee for a ticket. ship owners historically have gone free to these things. But we figured. you would get a better quality of event if everyone is sort of committed to it, one. And if it's free for you, then you're the product, too. So we figured Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: we'd much rather charge everyone a small fee. And I think actually that ended up working out quite well because with the people we had in the room, we really felt... able to contribute to the discussion in quite a meaningful way. So yeah, was pleased, very pleased. The bigger brief was a kind five-year brief to Kelly and Charlotte, runs DigitalShip and Charlotte who runs the event side of things, that we want to make it into the biggest gathering of maritime IT professionals in the world and have it as something of a mark on the calendar, which is why we're only going to do one a year. But yeah, next one will be Singapore in October, 2027. Raal: October, 2027, Singapore. There you go. Put it in the diary, start saving up. It's a long way for those in Europe. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: IT people don't get out very much. not, normally have very big travel budgets. So hopefully that, hopefully Nick Chubb: Yeah, exactly. Raal: they can put that in the budget now. Still got time. But no, I thought, you know, I thought it was very, very good to see. And it was great to have it in Athens as well, I think, cause you know, there's a, there's a good energy there and the, the, sort of crowd there is. some very smart people, local people who again, you don't often see, don't always see them because there's so much attention on Greece. There's probably less pressure on them to actually go to some of these other events that you get around the world in my experience. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah. Raal: And so there were some people there that I met for the first time, which was great and had some really interesting perspectives. Nick Chubb: Nice, yeah, well wasn't our intention to it in Athens, we originally announced it being in Dubai of course, we, in the end, and I think it was probably the right decision given how it's all evolved, decided that for the sake of the stability of the whole thing. we should move into Athens, but actually I think it was a great choice. We had some really, really fantastic local speakers from the Shipowning community. And as you say, there were people there actually who we had speaking who hadn't had a chance to speak at those types of events before as well and they were fantastic. So I was very, very pleased to get those contributions. This episode of Undocked is brought to you by Insight. What if compliance simply happened as your business operated instead of being chased after the fact? That is the advantage of building NIST2 cyber requirements, IMO safety compliance, and EU ETS reporting directly into your operational workflows from the outset instead of bolting them on afterwards. Insight and Smartsy make that possible with an integrated digital approach that keeps these requirements running in the background of daily operations. Not as a separate compliance project. Because when compliance is built into how the fleet runs, it becomes another driver of performance, not a drag on it. Protect your maritime estate with insight. Follow the link in the episode description. Raal: Very good, very good. And then after that, shot off, I think I got back on the Friday and Saturday, I was off again I was flying off to Manila. Takes about 24 hours to get there, doesn't it? You can't get a direct flight, so. Nick Chubb: Wow, yeah, yeah. Raal: And that was a very intense week as well. And yeah, we did a sort of a bit of a collab with with Marcus and the Sea Trade team. So I was on podcast duty with that as well, which you would have been there had you been there as well. But I had to I had to take one for the team, Nick. Nick Chubb: You were flying the flag. Raal: Yeah, to fly the flag. So that was a lot of fun. And Nick Chubb: Much appreciated. Raal: I think we'll we'll at time of time of broadcast with we're planning on having a proper deep dive into crew connecting and invite Marcus hand on the the journalists Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: from Sea Trade. So we won't go into too much detail and won't put too many spoilers in. But but again, really interesting week lots to unpick there when we when we do that episode. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. think that should be, it should be good fun. And I'm curious to hear what you have seen and are seeing across the crewing world or coming out of Crew Connect. But also, guess, guess curious to get your thoughts on a specific area of crewing and that is crew credentials and certificates. Because obviously we've been working. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: over the last few months on a piece of research on this. I think it be a good time to unpack it if you're up for that. Raal: Yeah, we rolled that out last week There was a launch. We had the webinar launch and we're seeing, and funnily enough, I've just been having a look at some of the questions that came in through the session, which was really interesting. Just to give a bit of a background to it, this is research commissioned by a company called Maritime Passport. Maritime Passport are a startup in the been around for a little while working on this problem for a little while, but essentially a startup made of Martin White, who people may know from Stream Marine, Intelligent Seas, he's got a few different businesses and Peter Phillips. So they're the co-founders and they're trying to solve the problem of moving the Seafarer digital credentials or Seafarer credentials. from the traditional paper way of doing it to the new digital world. it's not a new problem. We've talked about it a little bit on the show before, Nick Chubb: we have. Raal: but I think it's a really, it's one of those problems that you look at and you just think, why has it taken this long to kind of get around to this? And I think it's kind of... I was thinking about it in preparation for the show today. was thinking why is that? And I was like, I think it's just been sat in the too hard pile, hasn't it? And, Nick Chubb: What? Raal: the reason for that, as we'll, get into, we'll unpick some of the what's come out of the research. But I think, I think essentially you've got what on the surface looks like a very simple problem. But when you actually start to look at the number of stakeholders and the way things work and the complexities that we see in maritime. then it starts to look like a much more difficult problem to solve. so what we tried to do with the report when we started to kind of think about how to approach it was to look at it through that lens of a transformation, which is why it's very good subject for us to talk about on the show, I think, because if you just think about it as solving the sort of the technology part of it, There's lots of paradigms where it's been done elsewhere outside of maritime stuff. But it's a sort of transition that has lots of unintended consequences potentially and lots of kind of need for establishing a different way of working, a different model almost. when I think about it, and this is mentioned in the report as well, you know, we've been through some of these transitions before, if you take paper to digital kind of examples, I think the electronic chart is quite a good example, because that is a paper charts used for centuries, everybody knows where they are with them. Doesn't make any sense in a digital world to have a paper chart any more than it does to have that big map that your parents had in the Austin Maxi, know, crammed into the... glove box of the Austin Maxxer, with the mapping, when you've got sat-nav's available and things like that. But when you look at it, the way in which the electronic chart changed navigation is quite profound because suddenly you have something which is operating, it's a sort of a different scale, which means you can put it actually amongst the other bridge instrumentation. You can start to kind of look at those things together as data points. can... layer the chart in a way that you couldn't on paper. So you can remove detail, add detail, and it starts to be something that gets actively used in navigation rather than something for voyage planning and taking reckonings and all that sort of stuff. So I think when you start to think about that, then what happened as a result of moving to ECDIS you know, there needed to be big changes for training and the way in which we thought about managing the bridge and the bridge team and all that sort of stuff. It's not a like for like comparison, I think it's kind of that's the way we need to think about Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: this transition to digital credentials is something wider. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things I found interesting in the report was almost a perception among some stakeholders that it's sort of something of a solved issue in that you can take a PDF copy and just, you know, that's how it's done today is get a paper certificate, fine. but then you share the PDF with your employer before you're joining a ship as you're registering with manning agencies, all that sort of stuff. And therefore it's digitalized. But I think one of the really important, like really fundamental distinctions that needs to be made kind of upfront is the difference between. digitalizing something, which is near enough just taking it from its analog form and making a digital copy of it to an actual digital transformation of a process where you can realize the genuine benefits of something being digital first rather than paper first. Because one of the most striking things is in the opening to the report is an interview conducted as part of it talking to a master mariner who carries with him everywhere he goes a four kilo file of certificates. And I think this is the thing that people often forget is that everyone thinks about a C-Fair certificates being the certificate of competency and that being a single book. But depending on the ship type, you can have anything from absolute minimum five or six, but realistically, 15 to 20 supporting certificates. that you can't get the certificate of competency without, but also seemingly once you've been granted the certificate of competency, you have to carry those supporting certificates with you so an inspector can see them anytime that you're on board the ship and have digital copies of them flying around the internet all the time. And there's a lot of personal data that lives on these certificates as well. So things like... on your basic SDCW certificates, can have things like passport numbers and discharge book numbers, that means every time you're sharing the PDF of that certificate, you're sharing really important critical personal information to a whole load of people and it's going to sit on servers and... but potentially get looked at once. But we're now entering a kind of world of AI where any of that kind of data can just get picked up by an AI system and used in all sorts of ways. so I think the... There's a wider question in terms of why now, where we're looking at data governance becomes much more important and probably as an individual, what's the most important data governance you need to think about? It's your personal data and these certificates just host a huge amount of it. And so the whole thing's a bit messy as it stands right now. Raal: Yeah, I think that you're absolutely right. In the course of the report, it was quite interesting because as I say, it's quite a new space. And I've been sort of working, I've been working as an advisor to Maritime Passport and got involved in the report on the basis of that, And along the way, I started to realize that there were a lot of false preconceptions around this whole thing Nick Chubb: Mm. Raal: and different degrees of which people have been thinking about the problem. And so the report has turned into, I think, a bit of an educational resource into really examining all these different bits. And I hope that's going to be interesting for a lot of people in the industry, whether they're thinking about, from an administration's point of view, about how they issue these things or whether they're from a crewing background to thinking about what's gonna change for me here. And of course, Seafarers as well, who you mentioned that very real kind of problem of having to carry these things around at the moment. think there's a few other things to say about that. But one of the misconceptions, which I think was interesting off the back of what you were just saying, is this idea that, well, okay, there are problems with paper, but if we go digital with it, we're gonna introduce all these kind of data protection problems. And what became clear in the research that I hadn't even considered, was the fact that we are already in this hybrid digital world in that people are scanning things and sending them. And what you've ended up with is all sorts of passport scans and really, really personal information that's on held on SharePoints and in drives and all this kind of stuff. So, so the kind of, we're sort of judging the new digital systems to a standard, which is just simply not being obeyed. in the current system, we already Nick Chubb: anywhere else. Raal: have this as a problem. And that's just one example, I think, of it. The other thing that I think is really interesting about the report is that it does look pretty much top to bottom from a number of different perspectives. Obviously, the seafarer perspective we open with, but then we look at the inspector, the employer's point of view, people who are sort of responsible in sort of like... representative groups and that kind of thing, trade associations and so on, that are all kind of keeping kind of watch on this space. And I think that's really what's important that we look at it through that lens, because the risk is, if we don't, that everybody just thinks about solving their particular part of the problem, and then it's sort of it's done. And that isn't going to make the shift, isn't going to get us where we need to get to, because one of the biggest problems that we have at the moment is is the sort of fragmentation and these repeated checks and all that sort of stuff. And that's where the biggest opportunity is to solve the issue. So I think you mentioned there one, you know, the obvious problem of the seafarer. And I think it's worth us just rounding that off by talking about the real issues behind that. One of which is the story that you told me, which I thought was fascinating when you talked about leaving your one on the train. as just as a good illustration and that ended well, right? You did find it. Nick Chubb: I managed to get it back, yeah. I mean, if not career ending, would have been career delaying by probably close to a year because it was everything. Raal: A year. Nick Chubb: Well, mean, it was interesting because I hadn't thought about or looked at my certificates for a lot. I mean, they're all expired now, right? But I think I had 12 paper certificates plus my COC plus my GOC, which is the General Operator Certificate for GMDSS plus my British Discharge Book plus my Marshall Islands did Charge Book because I sell to Marshall Islands ships. And then, you know, things like the training record books, all of the workbooks that go along with that, that are all primarily done, starting to now roll them out digitally, even up until very, very recently were done by hand. All of that was sort of carried in the same sort of lever arch folder type thing. And so yeah, if you lose it, it's not just the... certificates from the training colleges which may be reasonably easy to recover. There'll be a cost to that and it'll probably take a bit of time. But it's all of the documented and stamped. The industry loves a stamp. stamped records of C-service, C-service testimonials, all of that sort of stuff. And all of that has to be submitted to the MCA when you go and do your exams. if, and thankfully touch wood, I managed to get it back. But if I hadn't got it back, I couldn't have submitted to go up to do my final exams to qualify. And I probably would have had to go back to C as a cadet, I guess. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: because there are no copies of this stuff. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: And again, it sort of comes back to one, just creating a massive risk for the seafarer. But actually I think probably a larger risk is a risk that sits on the employer as well, because it's very, very difficult to verify the veracity of these certificates as well, when they're just gonna scan PDFs. Raal: Yeah, and then the other thing was the fact that when you've got a paper based version of this, if it's held by an employer, that is also undermining your portability as well as a seafarer in terms of where you can go and work for us. So I don't, I'm sure that most employers don't hang on to them, but there is definitely some cases where they are. held on to and it would prevent you from going to work for anyone else, until those were released. Nick Chubb: Yeah, you say employers don't hang on to them, but you do, generally speaking, surrender your passport and discharge book when you join a ship. And there are practical reasons why you have to do that, because one person will generally handle immigration for the entire ship. So when you come into a port, they need everyone's passports. But it doesn't change the fact that you're putting a huge amount of trust into the people on board who are doing that. And the same goes, yeah, exactly, with... Copies of all of those certificates certainly, if not the originals. Raal: And then you've got the, mentioned about the employers there and judging that and you're absolutely right. Like as an employer, you're presented with these copies, there's certificates and everything. I think it's mentioned in the report. How would you really know what they're supposed to look like? And you know, they can look kind of authentic. There's also, you you might say, well, at least with flag states, there's a sort of finite amount flag states that you could kind of. keep on top of what their things should look like. then think of all the training centers in the world who are legitimately allowed to issue training certificates on behalf of flags. And those would be on a list, won't they? But how would you know what they're supposed to look like and stuff? So even if you've got something that looks right, there's a possibility. And then it's like, the certificate? may have veracity, but is this the right person that's supposed to have that certificate in front of you as well? So there's a lot of questions there. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Well, let me show you something. Guess how long this took. Raal: You mean to acquire it or to... Nick Chubb: to make it. Raal: hang on, it's for me. I signed Nick Chubb: No, it's for me. Raal: it. You made that in, I'm taking it with the power of your friend Claude, is it? Nick Chubb: Indeed. And it took from first prompt to downloading it 11 minutes. Raal: Wow. Nick Chubb: Despite a number of refusals from Claude to do things like sign a certificate, put numbers in. Raal: Yeah, I imagine it's probably wise to some of it. Yeah. Nick Chubb: But I was shocked at how easy it was actually. It was A quick and B. the kind of security around Claude in terms of, and Claude's one of the better tools for this sort of stuff, but the security and guardrails around sort of not producing false documents. But I reckon at first pass, if you created a website for the Undocked Maritime Training Center, it probably would pass muster, particularly if you're sending a PDF copy of it. And this to me Raal: Well, we could. Nick Chubb: just speaks to the core of the problem, it's so easy to create these. Raal: And also as well to your point then about the website and how quickly you can establish the website and that sort of stuff. One way around this and some people's view on digitization is that you put a QR code on that which allows you to check, Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: but how easy would it be with Reply and Claude to create that whole system so Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: that you've checked the QR code and then it comes up as being. Nick Chubb: and it will come back saying it's a verified certificate. 100%, yeah, yeah. And Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Nick Chubb: this really kind of speaks to the core of the issue, that it's almost impossible to kind of stay one step ahead of people who would try and create these fake certificates. Because you're right, anyone with a replic subscription could create a full kind of fake certificate infrastructure that would be quite hard to spot. But the report does come up with quite a nice sort of framework for what good looks like. I think one of the... nice things about the report and one of the things that we always try and do with these these types of reports is create something of a framework or a model that could be could be used across the industry it's not necessarily about tying something to to a single supplier like Maritime Passport but there are there the report talks about a security triangle which is actually taking a model that is in use elsewhere in other industries and other in other sectors and applying it to this market and to CFA certificates particularly. So there are kind of three core roles to... to think about to make a kind digital certificate system work or a digital credentialing system work. So the first role is the issuer. So that would be a flag administration or an approved training center that's been approved by a flag administration or possibly a medical practitioner who's issuing ENG1 certificates, that sort of stuff. But they are the ones that actually verify that the mandatory requirements have been met, whether those are competency requirements or... medical requirements, training requirements, they actually issue the credential in a trusted, tamper-proof digital form. So they're the ones who retain the official authority over the credential. They also maintain it and maintain the ability to kind of update its status. So when it expires, it effectively gets revoked, or if they want to revoke it, they can. That gets issued to the holder, to the seafarer in this instance. they have a sort digital wallet. They have total control over their personal data and they decide what specific details need to be shared and with whom. So it very much leaves the control for the data with the individual seafarer. And similarly, they can revoke data rights as well. So if you're sort of done with an employer, you can revoke the employer's rights to view those certificates. And then you have the verifier, which could be the employer, could be a crewing agency, it could be a port state control inspector, and they are the one who... by having access granted to them can independently verify the presented credential directly against a kind of common standard back to the issuer. And so you end up with this nice triangle between those kind of three parties that creates a layer of trust between the verifiers who are kind of able to overcome this issue of fake certificates, the holders who have some level of control over their personal data and what happens after they leave an organization. and the issuer who is the ultimately the one who's kind of responsible for making sure that standards are being met. And I think what's quite interesting about this, where this sort of thing has been used outside of the maritime sector, I think a good example would be using digital ID credentials, for example, for things like age verification. It's not necessarily about requesting... from that wallet requesting all of the person's information. If you're trying to go into a pub and you look a bit young, they might look at your, or even scan, a lot of pubs will scan your passport or driving licence. They've taken a huge amount of personal data from you that then sits on a record and you've got no way of getting it back. potentially, where it's potentially just being able to query a wallet and say, is this person over 18 or not, and be able to trust the answer being yes or no, or is this person, does this person have a valid ENG1 certificate or not, yes or no? Does this person have hold a master's COC or not, yes or no? The only thing that needs to come back is a yes or no answer. It doesn't have to come back with all of the person's information. And so I think you end up in a situation where the data governance is much, better, much, much clearer. really is better for everyone. Raal: Yeah, and the passport, think is a good example there, isn't it? Nick Chubb: you Raal: if you're at your ID check is based on the past, people are holding your passport information, which gives them a huge amount of personal information. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: Whereas if you select and create a digital ID, which is which uses the passport to verify that you are who you say you are, but then creates that ID for you separately. That ID is then strong enough. It's completely nailed on to you from. facial recognition and biometrics and all that sort of stuff. So it can be really, really robust. There's no reason for them to have your passport, unless it's for travel reasons or something like that. We know that that's the case with some crewing systems. in terms of the certification, that's then established an independent identity for you based on your identity documents, which then all of the credentials can be added to and all that sort of stuff. The other thing that it does as well is you mentioned this is a tried and tested. you know, method from elsewhere. But I think the other thing that's clear in the report is that there things that which are required by maritime that are slightly perhaps slightly bigger constraints than you might find elsewhere. And a good example of that is you mentioned the expiry of the credential. But against that, we've also got the fact that still to this day, there's a lot of... connectivity blackouts and things like that that you still get in Maritime. obviously you don't want to have to be reliant on an online system every time you want to check that credential. And you can get, and there are ways around that as well, which we talk about in the report where it can actually live, say on the person's device. And then you might say, well then how do you know whether it's expired or not? So you just, have these things that have a short expiry window. So maybe it's... it can exist without being verified for, whatever you think is appropriate, a couple of weeks or something, which allows the expiry to still be taken care of, but allows you that idea, you know, maritime is a big world. we can't have people suddenly, you know, their credentials being sort of denied because, because something like connectivity. Because then people will say, well, I have to carry the paper one as a backup and then you've lost the whole value of having having the digital. Nick Chubb: Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's quite an interesting, I don't know, it's not quite a case study, more of kind of comment in passing in the report about a port state control inspector going up the gangway on a yacht. They had a fully cloud-based SMS and at that time, no internet connection, which, you know, near enough. for the the port state control, you effectively have no safety management system in place because you can't produce anything from it. But that kind of resilience piece, I think, is a really interesting one because the kind of counter argument to all of this is that, yes, they're clunky. Yes, they're open to fraud. Yes, it's not a great user experience for the CIFAR. Yes, there lots of security risks, but the paper certificates are 100 % reliable if you have the physical copy on you. And so that's the kind of flip side. So building a system that allows you to have a level of resilience in it, I think becomes really, really important. Raal: And the other point that's made in the report as well, I think it's Grant Hunter from BIMCO, he says know, whatever the sins of paper may be, they are at least interoperable, It can be recognized by anyone. And Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: this is the other big challenge that we see when we think about it as being a, as being something that needs to be looked at from an industry shift perspective. You know, because there are, as we said, lots of different flags out there, lots of different. training centers and stuff and particularly on the on the flags. It's a very mixed picture in terms of digital maturity. So some, for example, think it's a Danish flag, for example, already sort of issuing. think digitally you've got MSER working on solving various parts of this problem with their with what they've done for the issuance part of it. But but again, often these these are people sort of dealing with a specific part of that. triangle that you mentioned there, Nick, either looking at the verification piece or the issuance piece or the digital wallet. And there's lots of different people in the space. Some of them are, you know, national administration level, some are private vendors, sometimes it's a mixture. And so there is this danger that if we don't get the interoperability part of it right, you could find it very, very difficult to kind of consolidate and to bring things forward. So when we think about shipping, As we said, it starts with the issuer. So that's normally the flag. A lot of ship owners will work with maybe one or two flags for their fleet, right? So you've already got a situation there where you've got one crewing team that are looking to manage their cohort of seafarers, but potentially two flags who are issuing those record books and certificates and things like that. So when we think about how we make the transition, we've got to think about ways of how we we can ring fence certain parts of it to get things moving and add that value in there. But again, that's then, know, people's careers are portable. They don't always work for the same customer. And then you've got ship managers who are representing many owners who may be flagged with very different ships. So it's a very complex, we can see the benefits of getting to that digital future, but the way in which we get to that is gonna be... It's gonna be tricky and interoperability is gonna be a huge part of Nick Chubb: Yeah, well maybe a good way of rounding up this section would be just to kind of talk through the kind of the key recommendations that the report makes to industry because I think that exactly that problem is, you know, the first recommendation is actually around sort of establishing common rules and standards for this. You know, it's worth saying that what has changed at the beginning of 2025 in terms of the kind of why now piece is that the... definition of the original form of a certificate has been updated to be both paper and digital and there were some requirements set out in terms of kind of what data needs to be included in the digital certificate. So there is a kind of legal framework for this now but that's obviously taking some time to filter down into the flag state administrations. But really we need the IMO, need flag state and we need industry bodies who are looking after CFARES to kind of agree on a baseline set of rules that cover holder identity, issuing authority, credential status, how the kind of cross system verifications might work, how data protection would work. I think if you can set those ground rules out early, then I think you're gonna avoid a lot of pain down the line. The second recommendation was around designing for something of a phase transition. reconciling that this is probably inevitable. We are going to move to digital certificates but it's going to take some time and the validity of a certificate is as a minimum five years. in most instances and sometimes longer for particular types of certificates. And so there is going to be something of a phased, you know, probably over a couple of decades where, you know, where the last paper certificate might be issued in some years from now, and that will be valid for some time. So actually thinking about how that transition will work, I think is a really important one. preserving the authority of the issuer and empowering seafarers, I think is really important. And that point around the seafarer being able to both grant access and revoke access to their certificates and the issuer being able to grant access or grant and revoke a credential, I think is two really, really important principles. I think something else actually that in conversations I've had with Martin White from Marathon Passport, I think is really important point, is that any system like this should be free for seafarers because ultimately it is their right to work. you create a system that sort of ties people into paying a subscription fee for their wallet or anything like that. and for whatever reason, they can't pay that fee, suddenly you're gonna end up in position where you're taking someone's right to work away. And I think that's a really fundamental point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Raal: or an indentured, like an indentured workforce kind of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's interesting because that's one of the big questions that comes up a lot, came up on the webinar, who pays? And I think the thing that makes the most sense for me is to look at where the value is really obtained. And obviously, you know, the employment, checks that we've talked about take hours and hours and hours and that comes across really strongly in the report. So there's big savings there from an issuer's point of view, huge amounts of cost in terms of the administration and in terms of actually sending DHL record books Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: and all that kind of stuff all over the world and certificates and everything and also even generating some of the certificates because as you said earlier, there's special paper embossed and holograms and stamps and all this kind of stuff on there. So there's savings to be made and it seems to me only fair that that's where the kind of cost comes from. Because as you say, there's something it's something difficult about this charging the seafair piece, I think, that people feel uncomfortable about. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I I think, ultimately, I think the value should accrue to the flag state, right, because ultimately it's their brand without sort of, you know, putting two finer points on it. know, flag states operate commercially these days as much as they do as states and the brand of a flag state. You know, if you see an MCA, logo on a certificate, you think that that person has been trained to a fairly high standard. And I think the issuer of the credential, you know, therefore ultimately should be the one who provides this infrastructure. And, you know, I think it's important to say that... that model exists where the government or the issuing authority provides the infrastructure, that model exists in other sectors. The report talks about the medical sector as well and how a similar kind of thing has been rolled out in the medical sector. And it's the same kind of model, it's not the doctors who are paying for this stuff. I'll just round out the last two recommendations. One is the points you've already raised about interoperability, I think being really important and actually having the kind of... ability for data exit requirements sort of being built into any kind of procurement process that you know again something that's really important to sort of map out early on before you actually commit to anything and then that finally the kind of operational resilience point so so how do you build and the report goes into some of the technical detail which I won't I won't go into now but possibly actually be good to get someone from Maritime Passport on the show to talk about the technical detail around how this actually functions around the kind of operational resilience and how that you don't necessarily have to be connected to the internet to make this sort of system work. Raal: Yeah, and just on that as well, the other thing that is in the report, which I think is really useful, even as someone who, feels they're pretty on top of technology, there's a whole thing in there about the technology choices and architectural principles and why different components are important. And the idea there is that people can make their own minds up if they actually understand, because it's easy to, when you look at all the different options out there, they're all going to sound more or less the same. They're all going to have some very similar kind of messaging, but that architectural choices that you make will enable different things and are stronger and weaker in different ways. So hopefully it does a good job of explaining what those different components are and what part, what role the different technology elements actually have in that, in that sort of triangle that you talk about. Cause the last point as well Nick Chubb: awesome. Raal: that we should make, it would be remiss of us not to make Is that one about bringing it back to the seafarer, the adoption of it? Fundamentally, this is something that has to be, you know, has to have seafarer buy-in, absolutely has to have for it to be successful. And we have seen in some situations where, you know, people have put together very, very good crewing, enrollment, you know, allow to kind of apply for jobs and stuff. You know, these sort of platforms where you have to enter all your information, that sort of stuff. know, seafarers don't love it. is the message I often get from it. And they just want to be able Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: to very quickly WhatsApp something across of, know, a scanner, their CV or whatever. So they need to actually understand why this is going to be really beneficial to them and why it's going to lead to better outcomes down the line. And if we don't get them really trusting what that information, how that information is going to be stored and what it's going to be used for, and importantly, the price thing that you mentioned there as well, and where the cost fall, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: then it's just simply not going to fly. So So that's a really important part of it too, that we get them really on board with this transition and that they understand what it's all about. And there are seafarer voices in the report as well. Nick Chubb: Well thank you for all of your hard work alongside Matt in helping to shape the research process because I know how deeply involved you were in it and I'm really pleased it's out into the world because I think it's an important topic. And I think it's one of those, like I said earlier, I think it's one of those things that is inevitable, it's happening, but there's a real opportunity to do it in the right way. And probably, if you're not careful, an opportunity to do it the wrong way as well. it will be, I'll be excited to see how the technology evolves. Raal: Yeah, I think that's the warning in the report, isn't it? That we don't want to replace a really fragmented paper system with an even more fragmented digital one. So that's the risk that we take. But Nick Chubb: Exactly, exactly. Raal: to your point, this is not like a pitch for a digital future. That future is already unfolding right now. And Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: so this is where we have to really kind of get our heads around it and shape it, you know, rather than Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: letting it just kind of take shape. But good. Nick Chubb: Now, have you heard of an island called Bornholm? Raal: Do you know what? I have. was, yes I have. But you have Nick Chubb: Have you? I wasn't expecting that. Raal: every right to think that I wouldn't have. But I came across Nick Chubb: I Raal: it. It's between Denmark and Germany, isn't it? Nick Chubb: Correct, yes. Raal: Yeah, I know it because I once met someone who was responsible for promoting it as a cruise destination. Nick Chubb: really? Raal: Yes, a very nice lady. from Ukraine and met her in Sea Trade in Nick Chubb: Really? Raal: Miami. Yeah. And she told me all about it. She was a very good evangelist for Bornholm Nick Chubb: I'm trying to remember the name of it. I used to sail a lot, I used to work around there on wind farm construction. And there is on the other side of Denmark, there is an island in the North Sea, there it is called Heligaland. Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: And that's another one that I think they've feebly, on occasion, tried to pitch as a cruise destination, but my goodness, it is the most desolate place in the world. The only thing it's really good for is the ability to buy stuff duty free. So it's very, very cheap for fags and boos. Raal: Yes, duty on for those for those unfamiliar with the Scandinavian countries, they're not the best places to buy fags and booze. And I imagine that there's probably a fair amount of traffic goes there from the mainland. Nick Chubb: But Bornholm is, it does look like a very pleasant destination, But it's also at the center of quite an interesting maritime security story, which has turned into an &A story. So let me tell you all about it. Raal: Please do. Nick Chubb: There was a lady called at Janny Thorberg at the Clippin Hotel on Bornholm and she got an email from someone called Ran saying, I'd like to install a camera on the Clifftop site overlooking your hotel that's going to point out to sea. And in exchange, I will pay you a fixed monthly fee for providing a suitable location. And that was it. It was signed off for the Varuna project, but with no other information. Now, given where Bornholm is in the Baltic Sea, in something of a strategic location, someone randomly emailing, asking to put cameras up that would face out to sea, set off something of an alarm bell. Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: So she said no. and then passed it on to the Danish Police Intelligence Service, who investigated and investigated Veruna. The website Veruna had no address, no phone number, no contact name. So it was all starting to look a little bit suspicious. But then, this morning, just this morning, Windward the maritime intelligence firm, announced that they have acquired a company called Azimut AI that also runs the Varuna project. And so it's kind of turned into what was this sort of cloak and dagger story of potential. interference in the Baltic Sea and new layers of surveillance and all that stuff has turned into an &A story in the maritime technology space. And it turns out that Azimut AI and the Varuna project are trying to add a new layer of physical visual intelligence on top of AIS data by placing cameras all around the coast. And obviously five, 10 years ago, you you could put a camera out to sea and you wouldn't have a clue what you were looking at. But nowadays, when you combine it with AIS data, you combine it with computer vision, machine learning, suddenly you've got a new way of kind of physically from the ground, fingerprinting a vessel as it's sailing past. And it's now going to be integrated into a windward's maritime intelligence. So it's just a fascinating story and it sort of completely took a handbrake turn this morning when it was announced that Wynwood had acquired it. Raal: Yeah. But this was an entirely benign act then on the behalf of the camera. Yeah. Nick Chubb: It was. It turns out it wasn't the Russians. It was this Azimut startup. Raal: What I'm interested, I don't suppose it was part of the story, but I'm curious to know the range of the camera. How far out can it actually do anything useful? Nick Chubb: I don't know, mean, line of sight, so line of, I mean, line of sight from sea level is a little under four kilometres, so if you're stood from about two metres on a clear day is about four kilometres. Now, the camera itself was being placed, they declined, but I've seen they put the cameras up somewhere else. It was being placed on a cliff top. And I imagine, you know, if you're 100 metres up from sea level, there was a time when I could do that kind of maths in my head, but it would give you a pretty good, on a clear day, would give you a pretty good view of what's going on in terms of vessel movements right around the Baltic. Raal: yeah, so from a cliff I can imagine you might well have that kind of purview. It's interesting. Yeah. Nick Chubb: Well, I think what's fascinating about it is it's fairly interesting in the Baltic, for obvious reasons, with what's going on in the world, heightened tensions coming from Russia. But I would imagine this approach is pretty replicable and relatively cheap to replicate in coasts around the world. So, if someone owns some land that has a good enough view. It's not necessarily that any images are going to end up going directly to customers, but what... Wynwood have said is raw footage and images are not provided to customers. They're used as an additional data source for Windward analysis. So it's going to be combined with the AIS data, with all of the other data feeds that they're able to pick up. Raal: Does the appetite for this have anything to do with the increasing fear of relying on a low earth orbit satellite data and GPS data, global positioning? Nick Chubb: mean, there's a couple of things there. One is GPS and AIS don't rely on low Earth orbit satellites. But AIS, which is automatic identification system, which is a radio broadcast. It's actually a VHF radio broadcast. And it basically pings every few seconds with the ship's position and various other factors about the ship. And it's a totally open channel. You can stand on the top of the White Cliffs of Dover with an AIS receiver and you'll get a picture of all of the ships that are sort of coming past. Problem is you can switch it off from the ship. And if you do switch it off from the ship, suddenly all of those, you know, windward style systems, Kepler being the other kind of major one, marine traffic, all of that sort of stuff, suddenly doesn't get a signal of where that ship is going. You're not supposed to switch it off, but if you're traveling through the Strait of Hormuz, it makes sense to switch it off. Yeah. Raal: for safety reasons, Nick Chubb: And also if you are carrying a cargo of sanctioned Russian oil and you want to discharge that cargo without anyone necessarily knowing onto another vessel, then if both of you switch off your AIS transponders, then in theory you kind of go quote unquote, you go dark and so no one can see it. But what the likes of Wynwood are doing is they will buy in satellite, satellite photography and when ships go dark, they will look to kind of build a picture of where that ship went, what it did, so that you can get an understanding of whether the ship has flouted the law. Because if you unintentionally charter in a ship that has been doing something naughty, you may yourself end up on the wrong side of OFAC or the EU sanctions scheme, for example. Raal: I mentioned Nick Chubb: But I... Yeah, go on. Raal: the GPS thing. There was another story in Splash this week. was going to bring it up. A company called SatJam. was in Splash on 27th few days ago. This Nick Chubb: Okay. Raal: is a chap who's put together a, basically his thesis being that GPS is becoming unreliable. because of the amount of spoofing and so on with it. And it's Nick Chubb: Hmm. Raal: some pretty shocking statistics. I'm just seeing if I can spot them here. I I did write them down, I thought, but perhaps not. This is about the disruption affecting satellites, even 400 to 600 kilometers above the earth. And the problem extends well beyond ships and aircraft. basically, it's a map of where it can't tell what's received, but it's the map. of the number of the satellites that pick up interference. And it's something crazy in terms of the percentage of them that are experiencing this. And if you think about it, that makes a lot of sense because we're then less interested in maybe exactly which regions of the world are experiencing this because the attacks are happening sort of at the satellite level. Nick Chubb: in space. Raal: And his kind of basic, basic, statement I suppose is or discussion points is that the Seafarers need to be able to not rely on this and they need to be able to navigate without it because it's become that bad. So I just wondered if this was another attempt to at least in coastal waters to be able to kind of get a picture that's not dependent on satellite. Nick Chubb: I think something that is underappreciated is how many onboard systems these days are integrated into GPS. We just talked about AIS being one, but it's, know, and the Ecodis is the kind of the obvious other one as well. know, this is, it's worth saying that GPS is a very old technology. it was built in the 70s. back then, didn't have very good things like battery technology. We didn't have very good radio technology. And so it's a really, really weak radio signal. And so... it is absolutely possible for someone to stand on the top of the white cliffs of Dover with a radio broadcaster that would broadcast on the same channel as GPS and near enough knock out every GPS in Dover. You will go to prison if you do that. So this is not a recommendation that anyone should try anything like that. The point that that is though is that it's actually really easy to spoof, it's really easy to move around, it's really easy to totally block. But yeah, what I think a lot people don't realize is how many systems on board actually get fed by GPS. So I was involved, this is a long time ago, but I was involved in... a test where effectively under control conditions the GPS feed to the ship was switched off. And things that you just sort of weren't expecting to go wrong started going wrong and alarming. So the first thing is that alarms go off everywhere. Across the entire bridge, everything starts alarming. The Ektis, yeah, is an obvious one, but the radars, for example, the radars... you can put radars into either a head-up mode or a north-up mode. The north-up mode, it turns out, actually relies on GPS. And so if the GPS Raal: Really? Nick Chubb: feed is lost, then the north up mode is lost on the radar. The Raal: Wow. Nick Chubb: compass, the ship's compass, which is a gyro compass. So you've just got a spinning gyro really fast, which will always kind of hold its direction, which you'd think therefore totally independent of GPS. But for your gyro to stay accurate, you have to make an adjustment based on your latitude. And so as you sail sort of up and down close to the equator or up towards the north, you have to make small adjustments to the gyro compass to keep it accurate. the latitude feed for the gyro compass came from the GPS. So it was automatic, no one had to think about it, which means no one was thinking about it when the GPS feed went. Suddenly the gyro compass couldn't be relied upon anymore. even... Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: the clock on board, because GPS is a really good way of keeping time. All of the clocks on board were fed via the GPS, so once the GPS went, then all the clocks started alarming. And there's been studies done ashore, know, on where you knock out GPS, for example, in a city, you know, things like ATM machines take a GPS feed. Raal: Really? Nick Chubb: And, you know, so all of this kind of quote unquote, you know, digital resilience. stuff just starts to get knocked out when you take GPS out. It's huge potential problem. Raal: Yeah, interesting. I found his name. We should give him a shout out shouldn't we? He's a researcher, Kian Bustani-Nezad. And his free sat-jam platform uses European Sentinel satellite data to map interference detected in orbit. I Nick Chubb: cool. Raal: mean, but maybe some of these attacks are not all intended for shipping as you were saying, if it also affects cities as well. But in splash it reports MCA warnings covering the Baltic, Black Sea, Middle East, Gulf and East Asia. And as you rightly point out, affected systems include Ektis, AIS and autopilots as well. yeah, his platform is to help people identify where that is. But it's interesting, isn't it? That these kinds of things that we've come to rely on, perhaps a lot more vulnerable than we think. And this is part of the issue, isn't it? When we... when we become reliant on these technologies and perhaps get skill fade in other areas that which is Nick Chubb: Hmm. Raal: the point he's making that we perhaps then find ourselves not in a position to go back to fullback. It's really interesting. mean, looking at the SDCW revisions and a lot of people arguing, well, you know, we can't keep piling stuff on top of seafarers. We're adding a lot of technology that they now need to adopt. So let's start taking away some of these kind of things like celestial navigation and sextants and things like that. But what then happens when the technology fails and people don't have those core skills. it's, yeah, the swings and roundabouts. Nick Chubb: It blows my mind, and if anyone is developing it, please shout. But it blows my mind that there isn't a computer vision-based celestial navigation system in use. Why can't you have a camera pointing up that tracks the position of the sun, tracks the position of the stars, takes a sunrise and sunset and midday sight, and keeps that plus a dead reckoning. keeps an independent means of if Raal: Well. Nick Chubb: anyone wants to develop it give me a shout. Raal: I was going to say, isn't that your weekend job now? You've got your replie and your Claude. Why let someone else jump on it and steal this idea? It's great. mean, things like this is brilliant, aren't they? I love it because you know, so many, so many, something like that that was so fundamental to the first sort of 2000 years of people, people on ships, you know, I love the idea that they have a comeback. You mentioned, you mentioned &A. Things have been really quiet, haven't they, on &A? But there is another story today which, which reminded me of your whole right interest and obsession in kind of sail fast and wait, you know, the fact that we're still Nick Chubb: yeah. Raal: in this ridiculous inability to get just in time arrival off the ground for various, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: various reasons, one of which is technology. So I was interested with this storm geo purchase. They bought port chain. To link voyage routing with birth slots was the splash headline. This is StormGeo owned by Alfa Laval, is that right? Nick Chubb: Correct, yep. Raal: And yeah, Danish port call software specialist port chain. the kind of, yeah, so the interesting thing here is that it gives us StormGeo access to this kind of network of connecting shipping lines, about 200 container terminals, I think it says here. representing about 40 % of global container terminal capacity. So not a trivial amount of data that they'll have and being able to sort of combine that with their Voyage Intelligent Platform should make it possible for operators to adjust the speed of vessels and routes based on when terminals expect to have an available birth. And this is like, this is one of those things. I remember looking at this way before we were even, you know, even kind of things that even taken off in terms of decarbonisation agendas and all that stuff because this just makes absolutely no sense that a ship steams to a port that's not ready for it and then sits outside with the auxiliary engines running creating pollution for the local port area and all that sort of stuff. Did you see this one? Nick Chubb: I did because Port Chain going back quite a long way, Port Chain was something of a competitor to. building a port-call optimization platform for the container market and Port Chain were doing exactly the same but doing it from the kind of terminal side of things and we were doing it from the kind of the container ship owners side of things and so really really interesting first off to see that this is happened and it looks like it's a great outcome for port chain but also a great outcome for storm geo storm geo alpha level. I think the kind of basic idea going going back to when they first launched was essentially that so much birth time for a container terminal ends up idle because of this really messy you know question around hurry up and wait planning something gets delayed you know how long is the cargo operation going to take all of those things are really to work out unless you apply a layer of machine learning to support it and that's effectively what they did and so as I understand it there's two products but the one that we were sort of most interested in was the kind birth product that helps the terminal to kind of maximize the utility of the birth because obviously The ship is not making money when it's on the berth, if you like. Ships only make money when they're sailing. But the terminal is not making money when they have an empty berth. And so actually, for everyone, optimizing the key side and optimizing the berth and getting ships in and out as efficiently as possible is a huge productivity improvement for lots of reasons. And so yeah, really, really interesting company. And very exciting to see them go to Alfa Laval. As I understand it, Port Chain. works exclusively in the container market and Storm Geo obviously works across a whole host of different ship types and so what would be quite interesting is to see whether the technology and the methodology could be applied to other other market sectors. Raal: Yeah, very interesting. And although one of the other things I noticed on there that the acquisition follows Port Chain's continued expansion amongst container operators. In August, Singapore-based Express Feed has signed up to Port Chain to Nick Chubb: nice. Raal: connect. So when we talked about them having 40%, I think maybe describing them as sort of Copenhagen-based company, they've obviously already got quite a big global footprint in there, which makes sense. But like you said, very Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: interesting, especially if you could start. I think the good thing about containers is sort a bit more predictable, isn't it, from a trade point of view? But I'm sure there's plenty of stuff you could apply to that. Nick Chubb: Yeah, and it doesn't have the hurry up and wait problem in the same way as, for example, like tramping bulk carriers do, for example, Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: or tankers do. In fact, if anything, I would say the container market is so evolved in this space that it's kind of getting to the point where it's about getting the absolute last optimizations you can out of the whole process and because they're on a line of trade. And these days, MSC, CMA, CGM, they all now own terminals. APMOLA own terminals as well. And so that whole market is kind of consolidating in quite an interesting way too. Raal: Yeah, very interesting. One more for you. I spotted, I don't know if you saw this one, but last week's episode, we aired our Path Robotics, very Nick Chubb: Yes. Raal: exciting AI powered robots in shipyard to Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: some interesting responses I've seen actually. I don't know if you've seen some of that. It's a very emotive. Nick Chubb: I saw a couple of comments on YouTube of people deeply, deeply unhappy about it. Raal: on YouTube. It's very, yeah, so we've got our core audience of people who watch the entirety of the show. We also have our kind of clips which reach a wider audience. So that's where we kind of tend to see a lot more of these kind of knee-jerk comments and Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: stuff like that. But it's very emotive. there's the obvious concerns and anxiety, I suppose, about people losing jobs and things like that. I think if you watch the episode, you'll see it's a bit more of a subtle story than that. And it actually comes from lot of inability to find human workers with the skills needed to do the acceleration in welding. if you're interested in that, go and have a look at it. But is there a trend of robots actually going live? Well, Cargo and Neptune, Robots Cleaning Hulls in Singapore in your own digital ship publication, yesterday. Nick Chubb: really? Raal: Yes, I saw it. So this is a deal between Cargo Cargill, sorry, and Neptune Robotics 18 month partnership testing robotic hull cleaning and inspection on vessels calling in Singapore. And this is Neptune's flagship robot Magneto. They don't help themselves with a lot of these names, do they? Magneto. I'm guessing it sticks to the side of the ship. That's my that's my thoughts on that one. AI enabled remotely operated vehicles. So So it's not fully autonomous being let loose on the ship here. I'm not quite sure what amount of it is completely. So it says AI enabled. So maybe not quite the same as some of these, the robot dogs we had last week. But it's cleaning performance, AI supported hull inspections and fuel consumption before and after cleaning. So looking at that whole thing, if you're not aware of this fouling on ships, which is all the barnacles and bits and bobs and creepy crawlies that stick to the bottom of ships massively. cause a massive drag on fuel consumption and things like that. So that's the carrot to kind of keeping your bottom clean. Nick Chubb: Well, and it's one of those areas where if you, unless you wait for a dry dock where the ship actually comes out of the water, it's a very Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: dangerous thing to go and clean a ship. Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: It's not something necessarily you want humans doing if you can possibly avoid it. hopefully it won't. Raal: There are dive teams that do it, aren't there, that will do it when you're in the water. I mean, you can imagine, Nick Chubb: Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Raal: think of the size of a ship and how much you pull, how many divers and how long it would take any, yeah, I mean, maybe the propeller or Nick Chubb: Send a scuba diver down with a wire brush. Raal: something like that they can work on. I mean, tell me I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong. But yeah, but so this is a kind of, know, potentially a really big thing. And obviously Singapore. MPA, extremely innovative, they? And very welcoming of this kind of thing. So this is a Y Singapore part of an MPA program, six partners sharing nearly 3.7 million in R &D funding to test solutions in live port conditions. And of course, the challenges it mentions here, strong currents, awkward hull areas and collecting cleaning debris whilst keeping port operations moving. So, but yeah, but it's more evidence I think that the robotics is really starting to become a very, very interesting area. One of the things as well that occurred to me when I was starting to think about this and, we talked to Heather last week, we were talking, it's largely they're working in the the shipyard, you know, and she said that they haven't really kind of started thinking about the shipboard applications, but clearly there There are opportunities for this. And it made me think about our friend Chris Eversaro when he was talking about, like he said to you about the, what are the trends that things to watch. The Nick Chubb: Yeah, hardware being. Raal: fact that software is very vulnerable to being ousted and replaced versus solutions that have a combination of technology, physical technology, let's say. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: and software. And this is a good example, I think, of an area where the two things are really knitted together really, really well. The example of path and then what's happening here as well. So one to watch. Nick Chubb: Makes me and if you don't love robots, but you do love this show, please make sure to like and subscribe, which is something I feel like I've not said for a long time. So push Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: the little button wherever it is, wherever it is you're listening to this. And thank you very much for joining us for another week. Raal: Cheerio. Nick Chubb: Thanks all, bye.