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Jay Seegert: Two HUGE Skills Every Believer Should Practice · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

0:03
Welcome to Worldview Matters.
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Discussing controversial issues.
0:07
Discerning current events.
0:10
Defending biblical Christianity.
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No topic.
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Off limits.
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And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
0:20
Hello and welcome to another episode, friends, family in Christ.
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I'm so blessed to speak with the people that I get to connect with and we hear their expertise on whatever area, whatever the topics are.
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And today is no different.
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I do want to mention before I got on here with our friend Jay Siegert, who's going to be our guest today.
0:39
We were talking about the conference that we just had, the Worldview Matters Conference today.
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and Olivier Melnick was one of the speakers.
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He just went on the Grand Canyon tour with Jay, and maybe I'll bring him in and have him talk to us a little bit more about that.
0:53
I thought that was neat.
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So thestartingpointproject.com is the website.
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Thestartingpointproject.com.
1:02
Got a great topic today.
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We're talking about conversations with people, the art of navigating skepticism with truth and grace, and we'll hopefully talk about a couple of huge topics
1:13
skills that every believer should practice.
1:17
Jay Seeger, welcome back to Worldview Matters.
1:19
Good to see you.
1:21
Hey, it's always great to be on the program, and I really enjoyed your conference.
1:26
You do a very professional job, awesome speakers.
1:29
I'm looking forward to next year.
1:30
You've already got a lineup, great speakers.
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So I appreciate you doing what you do, and I appreciate your friendship.
1:36
Thanks, Jay.
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It was a blessing to have you there and to have you connect.
1:40
By the way, Olivier was at the conference, and he and Jay recently connected.
1:46
And when we had Olivier on a week or so ago, he mentioned we did a little commercial for the Starting Point Project in your Grand Canyon tours, because he said that him and his wife connected with you and went to the Grand Canyon with you and took your tour.
2:00
So tell us a little bit about that before we dive into the topic.
2:04
Yeah, it was fun.
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I mean, our tables at your conference were close to each other.
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So we just started chatting and we just kind of hit it off instantly.
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Olivier is a great guy.
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And so I just said, Hey, you know, would you want to go on a Grand Canyon tour?
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He's like, sure.
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So we arranged that.
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So he showed up two tours ago and just...
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had a blast because the tours are so much more than looking at rocks.
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I usually tell my audiences, I think rocks are pretty boring in general.
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Now, when they're related to something like the flood and the authority of scripture, they become very interesting and exciting.
2:38
But other than that, I don't take people on a Grand Canyon tour just to see a big hole in the ground.
2:42
We do look at that.
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We talk about the flood, but it's all about the authority of scripture, that it can be trusted from cover to cover.
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And I actually have a list of 60 topics that I cover in addition to the flood and the canyon that are teaching people how they can know that God exists.
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Not just like, well, there's good evidence for design.
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No, you could know.
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You could prove that.
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God's existence, evidence for the Genesis creation account in Yes, Then the Flood, evidence for the inspiration of Scripture, how do you know it's the inspired Word of God, evidence for the deity of Christ, and then how to mentor your children and grandchildren, and even how to reach out to skeptics in a very gracious, sincere fashion.
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So it's just nonstop fun, family-friendly.
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We're not rappelling into the canyon.
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We're not whitewater rafting.
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But it's four days of nonstop fun and strengthening of your faith.
3:33
I want to mention on your website, thestartingpointproject.com, there is a navigation tab that says Tours, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Devil's Lake.
3:45
Is that in Wisconsin?
3:46
Is that the Devil's Lake we're talking about?
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That's the one.
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I just kind of threw it in there casually.
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I'm supposed to do it in this summer.
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I got to squeeze it in sometime summer, early fall.
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But basically, Devil's Lake is in the Wisconsin Dells area for the listeners.
4:01
And a beautiful area just to visit in general.
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But there is a hike you can go on when you're at Devil's Lake on the north.
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to the left, which would be the East Bluff.
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You hike into the woods, and within six, seven minutes, you come upon a rock formation that isn't very exciting, and everyone just walks past it.
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But that slab of rock is actually the same slab of rock that you see at the bottom of the Grand Canyon.
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It's foundational earth rock.
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When the earth was formed, that was part of it.
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And then you can see the whole thing was just sheared off catastrophically.
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And then everything above it is sedimentary layers laid down by the flood.
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So if you go to the canyon, you look a mile down, you see the basement rocks and then all the flood layers.
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In Wisconsin, you can walk into Devil's Lake up on the East Bluff.
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You walk right up to it, put your hand on it, and then you can see where it was sheared off with sedimentary layers.
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So that's why we do a tour of Devil's Lake to talk about evidence for the flood and the ice age, even in Wisconsin.
5:00
So we weren't planning on getting into this, but I just want to ask you, are you already booking for next year or, you know, can people sign up?
5:10
Sure.
5:10
We have seven tours this year.
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I just finished the sixth one.
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Our seventh one is already, it's been full for a long time in October.
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And we're not doing one in September just because in a few days I'm heading to the United Kingdom to speak.
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Then when I get back, I'm speaking to West Point officers at a retreat out in the hills of Pennsylvania.
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Then when I get back, I'm doing something else.
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And then, or yellow, I know.
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I'm leading the Yellowstone Jackson Hole Tour in September.
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And I get back from that.
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And then I finally do the final Grand Canyon Tour in October.
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So if they're interested in Grand Canyon, they'll want to get a hold of us.
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We generally like to work with groups that if someone says, hey, we have...
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a group that would like to go, you have enough people in your group, we could secure the dates for you if you want to fill the bus.
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That's 52 people plus my daughter and I.
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Then it can be just your tour.
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If you can't fill the bus, that's fine.
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We'll just open up the other seats to the general public.
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But they'll definitely want to get a hold of us now because we've already got, I think, at least four scheduled, and we can't do an infinite amount.
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So they want to get a hold of us.
6:15
Yeah, the startingpointproject.com is the best venue to do.
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Awesome.
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So Jay's usually in studio.
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It's just really interesting seeing you with a background there at home and different environment, because I even have your pen here in studio.
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I'd be kind of going, I'd be spinning your pen and saying, Hey, Jay, we'd be talking, he's sitting right over in, because he lives, what, is it two and a half hours, roughly south of where we're at?
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Just under two hours, hour and 45 minutes.
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And I really wanted to come up and be in the studio, but I looked at my calendar.
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I just got home from the Grand Canyon, leaving for the United Kingdom.
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I was like, I should probably just do it from my home office.
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Yeah, you barely have enough time to get to the gym and work out.
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So I know you're really busy.
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There's a little inside joke there.
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Inside joke, yeah.
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He was on his way.
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So after this, Jay is going to go.
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So let's talk about any kind of skepticism as Christians.
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You know, it's something that we deal with just as humans, I think.
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But let's talk about the conversation.
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And you came up with the topic for this one.
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I really like it.
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So just let's walk us through this, Jay.
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What do you want to share about this conversation?
7:26
Yeah.
7:27
Sure.
7:27
Well, quick background.
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A few years ago, I was just thinking over different things that are important to keep in mind when you're trying to connect with a skeptic.
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And I thought of one important one.
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So I just put it down on a piece of paper, a bullet point.
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And then I thought of another one.
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So I had two bullet points.
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Pretty soon I had a half a page and I had a full page of just bullet points with things that are important.
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things that are in addition to the facts, in addition to try to show design in DNA or something about the universe.
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So I was writing them down.
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Well, eventually I had two full pages.
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Then I had three.
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Then I had four.
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Then I eventually had 12 pages of bullet points of things that I have learned over the past 41 years of speaking that are critical, that if you leave them out, you're not going to be very effective, even if you have great facts, and you're going to be very effective.
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And so I thought, I need to record a video series teaching this, because it took me 41 years to learn all these things.
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I could teach it in one series of video talks.
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So we got together with a videography group.
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And we just finished recording it a few months ago.
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There are 20 sessions, and it's basically me talking to the camera, keeping it real simple, very personable, training people in these skills.
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And it's for all Christians, whether they're in—even grade schoolers would learn from it, but certainly junior high, high school, college, regular adults, grandparents.
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It'll make you much more effective in sharing your faith, again, above and beyond the facts.
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There are facts in the series as well, but most of it is just different skills that will help you connect better with a skeptic in a very gracious and caring way.
9:08
Awesome.
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20, 20 sessions.
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You've already recorded these then.
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And so I know you're working out some logistics and where they're going to be posted.
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But what's the time frame?
9:19
When can people start looking for that?
9:21
We're hoping this fall we have finally sat down and done some diligence to figure out.
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It's kind of like the ready, fire, aim thing where we recorded it.
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It's like, well, now what do we do with it?
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We hadn't really decided exactly.
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So ideally, we would like it to be on a platform where people can sign up, start going through the sessions.
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And if you go halfway through one, it remembers where you left off.
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attracts your progress, plus probably offer certification.
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If you go through the whole thing and can submit some information, you've grasped the material and get certified in it, there should be a study guide that comes out with it.
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So those are a few things we need to figure out how to write the study guide, what format should it be, what platform do we use online for people to get to the materials, how do we market it.
10:07
Those are a few things that we're grappling with right now, but hopefully this fall we will send out a newsletter saying that it's ready to go.
10:14
Okay.
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And people can sign up for your newsletter at thestartingpointproject.com.
10:18
I really want to title a future podcast, Ready, Fire, Aim.
10:22
I really want to do that.
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So we have to put together a program that would go along with that.
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Maybe when you're evangelizing, Ready, Fire, Aim.
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And I think that's, put that on the back burner, Jay Seagert.
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Let's dive into this.
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I love this sentence that's in the notes that you sent me here.
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It says, facts are fine, but communication skills and a soft heart are much more crucial.
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Go ahead.
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Love that.
10:50
Yeah, most people miss that.
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You just think, well, if you want to defend your faith, you better be ready to prove this and prove that and have all these facts.
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And again, when I got started in this 41 years ago, being at the State University, my physics professors and other science professors were telling me I was wrong about what I believed.
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And again, I realized I know what I believe, but I don't know why I couldn't defend the Christian worldview.
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Well, I had to gear up.
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And my way, naively and somewhat immaturely, was to gear up by putting more facts in my head.
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And so I started doing a lot of research.
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I got really excited about what I was reading, and I naively thought...
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If other people knew what I just learned, they're going to realize that their worldview was wrong and maybe run to church and worship Jesus.
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And it didn't work that way.
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I was what I call a fax machine, not a copier, just spewing out facts.
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And it just wasn't ineffective.
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And I was wondering, like, what's happening here?
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The evidence is so clear and powerful.
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Well, the power of an argument is in the academics.
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but persuasion comes from the heart.
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And we're dealing ultimately with a heart issue.
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And so if you are not connecting with a person in a tangible, gracious way, they're not gonna really care about your facts.
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And then there's a whole nother avenue
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Facts don't speak for themselves.
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They don't say anything.
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They need to be interpreted.
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So you throw some facts out there thinking these facts prove my point.
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They can look at the same facts and come up with a different conclusion.
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Why?
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Are they not smart?
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No, they're probably really smart.
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They have the wrong facts.
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No, they're the same facts you just threw out there, but they're interpreting it differently because they have a different starting point.
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That's why we're the starting point project.
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You will always use what you currently believe to interpret new stuff.
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So you can't just throw facts out there and expect that to be convincing because they're going to use their current worldview to interpret it differently than you.
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So you always need to get down to that starting point level because if they find out their starting point is an error or not a good thing to use, they're going to connect the dots and realize I'm going to come to the wrong conclusions using this.
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So the problem isn't the facts.
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The problem is they're having an errant starting point.
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I love that.
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And F-A-C-T-S, facts.
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We think when we can get all this information, we can be convincing.
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But there's so much more involved.
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Someone's background, their understanding, their interpretation, our delivery.
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You know, you said, what did you say earlier?
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A soft heart and communication skills, the importance of that.
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Plus, we don't want to leave out a huge one, huge factor, the Holy Spirit.
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So in each interaction with someone, it's going to be different, not only based on where they're coming from, but we're going to be led to approach things differently, right, Jay, by the Holy Spirit?
13:46
Yeah, I cannot underestimate that factor.
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There have been many times where I've given a talk—
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And then afterwards I realized, oh, I forgot to say this one thing.
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It's really cool.
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I can't believe I didn't say that.
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And I'm kind of frustrated with myself only to find out from some in the audience, say, hey, I brought my neighbor and here's their background.
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And then I realized, wow, if I would have shared what I normally do, that would have totally turned them off.
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It wouldn't have been helpful at all.
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So I felt the Holy Spirit just allowed me to forget it.
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And I've had the opposite where I've said something I've never said before.
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I don't even know where it came from, but I just threw it in there for 10 seconds or 30 seconds.
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Afterwards, finding out someone says, when you said that one thing, that changed everything for me.
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It was just phenomenal.
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I'm like, don't give me credit because I wasn't planning on that.
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So you really have to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide the direction and then not even to kick yourself so much afterwards.
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Because if God really, really wanted you to share something, he could have reminded you.
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But he either caused you to not share it or he allowed it.
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And it's a part of maturing that maybe next time you'll include that.
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But you don't have to worry so much afterwards if you're really praying that the Holy Spirit guides your conversation.
14:59
So Jay, we're already halfway through more than that.
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So we've got to move here.
15:03
I want to get to some practical advice that you can give based on your experience.
15:07
And I know you're condensing a lot into this podcast.
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So I'll go ahead and share whatever you'd like.
15:12
Sure.
15:12
Well, we could skip over some things like we're commanded to be able to give an answer.
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First Peter 3.15 says we're commanded to be ready always with an answer.
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Answer for what?
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The reason for the hope that we have.
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What's the hope we have?
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Jesus Christ.
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So that verse is saying you are commanded to be ready as to why you placed your trust in Jesus Christ.
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It doesn't say be ready with an answer to talk about radiometric dating in the creation account.
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That can be helpful in conversations, but the primary focus is always the gospel message in Jesus Christ.
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So that's a given.
15:45
We don't need to beat that one to death.
15:47
It's pretty clear.
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Scripture says that.
15:49
Well, again, with our abbreviated time, I guess one thing we can jump to is two skills that are extremely helpful in,
15:58
to everyone.
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This isn't necessarily even a Christian thing.
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This is just a life thing, but Christians should be the best at it.
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And it's not rocket science.
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It's not hard.
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It just takes some intentionality.
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And it's something that I had to proactively think about and work on.
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And my wife has helped me with that as well.
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The two skills, number one,
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is listening.
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And I'll explain that in a second.
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And then the second one is asking questions.
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Yes.
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So what's the point with this?
16:28
Well, too often when I would be approached by a skeptic and they would make some claim, you know, there is no God and everything came from a big bang and Darwinian evolution is a fact and the Bible is just myth.
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It's filled with errors and contradictions, whatever it is that they say.
16:43
they would make those claims, and I would just instantly jump in and make the opposite claims.
16:48
Well, no, there is a God.
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He created everything.
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The Bible is the inspired Word of God.
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And then the skeptic says, fine, prove it.
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Give me one fact.
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Just one fact that proves that God exists, he created everything, or the Bible's inspired word of God.
17:02
Well, many Christians at that point kind of cringe.
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They're like, oh, I don't know that I can, like one fact, you know, well, the world is kind of beautiful.
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And so it's just, they're struggling.
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They're back on their heels instantly.
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And so a much better approach.
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is to listen to the claims the skeptic is making in order to better understand where they're coming from, to learn who they are, what is it that they believe, how do they come to that conclusion, why are they confident that that's true, and what difference does it make in their life?
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Get to know them.
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rather than giving them the impression, I don't really know what you believe or really care.
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It's just going to be wrong.
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And I'm here to tell you what's right.
17:43
Who wants to be in that conversation?
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Nobody.
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And so, in fact, I'm just winging this.
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Let me give you a really quick sample analogy that will help flesh this out of the listening and asking follow-up questions.
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And so I'm going to give you a very short, typical confrontation between a skeptic and a Christian.
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We'll go through it really quick, and then we're going to revisit it quickly.
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The skeptic says, evolution's a fact, and the Bible's just myth.
18:13
Again, normally the Christian says, well, no, creation is true and the Bible is inspired word of God.
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Then the skeptic says, all right, prove it.
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Just give me one fact that proves that the Genesis creation account is true or the Bible is inspired word of God.
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Then the Christian says, well, I don't know that I can prove it necessarily, but that's what I believe.
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Yeah, you have your nice little fairy tale belief, but I live in the real world.
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We deal with science and we prove things and invent things and cure diseases and they walk off.
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and the Christian is left humiliated, embarrassed.
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They're thinking, I don't know that I want to share my faith anymore.
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In fact, some of them start doubting their faith and walking away.
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That's a typical confrontation.
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We're going to quickly revisit that, and this time...
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Even though the skeptic's going to make the same initial claims, the Christian's going to change the response.
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And all the Christian's going to do this time is listen and ask follow-up questions.
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So this is how it now works.
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Same claims.
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Evolution's a fact, and the Bible's just myth.
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All right, at this point, the skeptic just made what we call truth claims.
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They, on their own, claimed two things are true, and all you're going to try to do now is find out more about that.
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So they say evolution's a fact, and the Bible's just myth.
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So you ask them, oh, how do you know evolution's a fact?
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Well, all the scientists believe it.
19:27
Like, okay, they just made another truth claim.
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So you ask them, how do you know all the scientists believe it?
19:33
Well, all the real scientists believe it.
19:35
No, how do you define a real scientist?
19:37
Well, anyone who believes in evolution, they're a real scientist.
19:40
There's circular reasoning going on.
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But then you go forward and say, well, what is the evidence that is so convincing to them that makes them believe it's a fact?
19:48
Well, there's tons of it.
19:50
All right, I don't really need tons.
19:51
If you could just give me a few examples.
19:53
Well, there are whole books written on it.
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Go out and get a book.
19:57
Okay, so you believe evolution is a fact because you think there's some evidence in some book somewhere.
20:02
You don't know what the evidence is, but you believe it's out there.
20:05
So you actually have faith that it exists, which is fine, but then you can't claim it's a fact.
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And then you let them off the hook.
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You don't ever want to push too hard.
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Go to their second truth claim.
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The Bible is just myth.
20:18
Why do you believe the Bible is just myth?
20:19
Well, it's filled with errors and contradictions.
20:21
Okay, can you give me some examples?
20:24
Well, there are tons of them.
20:25
Again, I don't really need tons.
20:27
Just a few would be helpful for our conversation.
20:30
Well, I can't think of any right now.
20:33
Okay.
20:33
Can you tell me what the Bible is all about from beginning to end?
20:36
It starts with this.
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This happens.
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That goes on, and it ends with this.
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15-second overview.
20:42
Well, it's been a while since I looked at it.
20:45
All right.
20:45
Tell me.
20:46
If you can't think of any errors or contradictions...
20:49
and you don't really even know what the Bible's all about, why do you have such a strong opinion against it?
20:53
Are you sure you're not just repeating things you've heard from someone else rather than your own well thought out research?
20:58
Great question.
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And that's the end.
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That whole time, all you did was listen to claims they're making and you want more information as to what does that mean, how do you know that it's true?
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You never even told them they were wrong.
21:12
You don't tell them they're a bad person.
21:14
You don't tell them you're not very intelligent.
21:15
You're just listening and asking questions.
21:17
You've never said anything about what you believe.
21:20
You just let them paint themselves into a corner where they have to realize they're making claims that they have virtually nothing to back it up.
21:28
Yeah, that's such an excellent point.
21:30
I hope everybody can follow that pattern because it's so important.
21:35
The pressure's off if we just back up and listen.
21:39
Where is that person coming from?
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How do they believe this?
21:42
Have them explain why?
21:44
Yeah.
21:45
Because that's what they're asking us.
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Why do you believe the Bible is inspired word of God?
21:50
We're asking them, how can you believe or why do you believe that evolution is fact or true?
21:56
So, Jay, we've got about five and a half minutes left or so.
22:00
What else do you want to cover in this time?
22:03
Sure.
22:03
Well, I'm just, again, winging it.
22:06
Another technique, again, these are all the types of things that we put in this conversation series.
22:10
Sticking to the big picture, which also means staying out of the weeds.
22:14
Now, if you're a golfer or a fisherman, you don't want to get caught in the weeds.
22:18
So what can happen is sometimes you're talking to a skeptic and the conversation gets so deep so fast, you don't really even understand exactly what they're saying.
22:26
Let's just say they say evolution's a fact because bacteria actually evolve resistance to antibiotics.
22:32
Yeah.
22:33
And most Christians don't know exactly what that means.
22:36
Well, how can you possibly respond if you don't even understand the argument?
22:41
Sometimes a person will do that just to throw you off.
22:43
Sometimes they're not an eloquent speaker.
22:46
But sometimes it's just something you don't understand.
22:48
And so you don't want to get pulled down into the weeds into something you don't understand and can't respond to.
22:53
So what you need to do is temporarily respond.
22:56
Not that you want to ignore this altogether, but you want to put it on hold and back up to the big picture.
23:01
And here's my, an analogy I came up with that everyone will relate to.
23:06
You're on a used car lot.
23:07
You're looking at a car and the salesman comes out, says, can I help you?
23:11
Yeah, I'm looking at this car here.
23:13
He gets all excited.
23:13
He goes, oh, come around the other side of your passenger side.
23:16
He opens the door, flips down the glove compartment.
23:19
It says, look in the back there, bend down, look in the back.
23:21
Do you see that bolt holding it into place?
23:23
You're like, yeah, he goes, that is the most precisely manufactured bolt on this planet.
23:28
You will not find a better bolt anywhere.
23:30
And you're like, I can barely see it.
23:33
I guess I'd have to take your word for it.
23:35
But I actually have a few other questions maybe you can help me with first.
23:39
We're going to back up to the big picture here.
23:42
And he says, like, what?
23:42
Well, before you came out on the lot, I was walking on the car and I noticed there weren't any wheels.
23:47
Yeah.
23:48
And then I don't want to complain, but I got into the driver's side, and every car I've had prior to this had a steering wheel.
23:54
This one just has this column sticking out.
23:57
And then I popped the hood.
23:59
There's no engine.
24:01
But if you can explain how those things will not be an issue for me and I'll still be able to drive the car without a problem, then you can tell me more about that bolt.
24:10
But if you can't answer those other questions, honestly, I don't care about the bolt.
24:14
The big picture.
24:15
So when someone gets you into the weeds and whatever they're bringing up, you can always step back and say, hold on a second.
24:21
You're an atheist, right?
24:22
Yes.
24:23
I got a few bigger picture questions for you.
24:25
Like what?
24:26
Where'd stuff come from?
24:28
There's an entire universe of matter and energy.
24:31
If there's no God, help me specifically understand.
24:34
Don't just say, well, there is a big bang.
24:35
Specifically, how do you get something out of nothing?
24:38
And then when you have something just expanding, how does it become more and more ordered?
24:41
The cosmos, which means order.
24:43
Then how do you get dead chemicals on this planet to come together to be alive and be able to reproduce themselves?
24:49
And how do you get particles banging together over time, becoming aware of themselves?
24:53
And why is it that the particles in my body that are interacting right now that came from nothing, they all of a sudden think that the Green Bay Packers are the best football team?
25:01
Why do my particles care about anything?
25:04
And there's other questions too.
25:06
But the technique is you get into the weeds, put it on hold, back up.
25:10
If they can't answer those bigger questions, it doesn't pay to spend time talking about the weeds.
25:15
Excellent.
25:16
Excellent, Jay.
25:17
Thank you for that point.
25:19
One quick question before we wrap up.
25:21
What the heck is elephant hurling?
25:23
Hurling.
25:24
What is elephant hurling?
25:26
Yeah, the larger context is, and we won't go over it now, but there's all these things that can happen in a conversation.
25:32
And if you're unaware of them, you get back on your heels thinking, what just happened?
25:36
One of them is elephant hurling, where someone makes a claim.
25:40
You say, how do you know that's true?
25:41
And they just throw out these large, vacuous statements like, we know evolution is a fact because all scientists believe it.
25:48
It's backed up by evidence from every area of science.
25:51
Very large, vacuous statements, no specifics.
25:54
They can say those things to begin with if they have details later, but usually that's all they say are the big statements to intimidate you.
26:00
They're throwing elephants out there with no specifics.
26:03
Yep.
26:03
So it's a massive hurl.
26:06
They just throw the elephant out.
26:07
I like that.
26:09
And that's, I think about that when they think, well, all scientists believe or, well, do all scientists really believe?
26:15
Well, most, the serious ones, right?
26:17
You mean the atheists, right?
26:19
Anyway, Jay, thank you so much.
26:21
Looking forward to this series coming out.
26:23
We'll try to get you back and talk more about that.
26:27
You know, the fall is, we're already at the end of summer, so the fall is like really, really close.
26:31
So ready, fire, aim.
26:34
Fire, aim.
26:35
Maybe we'll do that one in studio.
26:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:39
I would love that.
26:39
We've got to think about one.
26:41
I just love it.
26:41
I want to make that a title.
26:43
Jay, thestartingpointproject.com.
26:45
Thanks for all you do.
26:46
Go have a wonderful workout, my friend, and we'll talk to you next time.
26:48
I will do that.
26:49
Great seeing you.
26:50
Thanks.
26:51
All right, friends, thank you so much for sharing the podcast.
26:53
Again, go to Jay's site, sign up for those Grand Canyon tours.
26:57
He's got a lot of great resources also on his website, thestartingpointproject.com.
27:03
And by the way, again, the conference site for the next Worldview Matters conference is simply worldviewmattersconference.com.
27:12
God bless you, friends.
27:13
And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
27:17
We'll see you next time.