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89. What If Healing Isn’t About Becoming Whole with Karin Dremel · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world.
• 0:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, everyone, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:38
  Tracy Cartwright: We are here in, in August here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, and it's a little bit chilly, but I have, I have the pleasure tonight of the warm company, the warm and delightful company of Karin Dreml.
• 0:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome, Karin.
• 0:55
  Karin Dremel: Thank you so much.
• 0:58
  Tracy Cartwright: You're welcome.
• 0:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, look, I've been really looking forward to having this conversation with you since we met last year in Mexico.
• 1:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I would love for you to please introduce yourself and a little bit about, well, a little bit about your background, whatever that is there for you.
• 1:15
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't do a formal introduction, I just invite people to-
• 1:19
  Karin Dremel: Mm… Tracy Cartwright: tell, tell what, what's there for them.
• 1:23
  Karin Dremel: Well, um, let me start with something, uh, kind of new.
• 1:28
  Karin Dremel: Um, since I recently, a few months ago, turned 70, I have a very- No way … yeah.
• 1:32
  Karin Dremel: No way.
• 1:32
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 1:34
  Karin Dremel: have a very long time background.
• 1:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 1:37
  Karin Dremel: So I was born in Germany in 1956.
• 1:41
  Karin Dremel: in April.
• 1:43
  Karin Dremel: And grew up in the area where I am now.
• 1:48
  Karin Dremel: I am in Leutershausen, about f- 10 minutes train from where I grew up in Dossenheim.
• 1:56
  Karin Dremel: My hometown that I sort of claim is about four kilometers further on, um, where I get off the train, is Heidelberg.
• 2:07
  Karin Dremel: So Heidelberg is my hometown, and all of this here, the foot of the Odenwald, a little mountain, um, long, small but long mountain.
• 2:20
  Karin Dremel: But I do live at 1,800 meters altitude in Boulder, Colorado most of the year.
• 2:28
  Karin Dremel: Yes,
• 2:28
  Tracy Cartwright: yes.
• 2:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Quite different.
• 2:30
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 2:30
  Karin Dremel: I … Very different.
• 2:31
  Karin Dremel: Very different.
• 2:33
  Karin Dremel: Very different.
• 2:34
  Karin Dremel: And there I'm considered a Caucasian.
• 2:37
  Karin Dremel: That's not true.
• 2:39
  Karin Dremel: I'm an Odenwaldian.
• 2:39
  Karin Dremel: An Oden- The Caucasus is 2,500 miles away or whatever, and it's not my mountains.
• 2:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 2:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 2:48
  Karin Dremel: I really thought of this when I was in one of your constellations about place and mountain or river or what, if, if I correctly, you know- Yeah … find that place.
• 2:58
  Karin Dremel: This is there.
• 2:59
  Karin Dremel: This is east.
• 3:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:02
  Karin Dremel: The mountains in Boulder are in the west, and so for 20, for a quarter century, the mountains, um, the, the, the sun sets in the wrong direction.
• 3:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah.
• 3:15
  Karin Dremel: And which tells you that for many, many years now I have, um, apprenticed with, uh, trauma through the lens and through the experience of somatic… Um, I came to the US 30, 31 years ago to then, um, begin working with Ingrid Saint-Just.
• 3:40
  Karin Dremel: Who was not a constellation person.
• 3:42
  Karin Dremel: She was… I went there because of trauma, um, studies and trauma mending, this one.
• 3:51
  Karin Dremel: And, um, so for about five years until 2000, 2001, my… I went back and forth from Germany.
• 4:00
  Karin Dremel: And then in 2000 began to be mostly there,'cause I had, um, found somebody who I chose to marry, and who initially before we were married looked like he could be portable, meaning move with me to Germany.
• 4:19
  Karin Dremel: That didn't work.
• 4:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 4:21
  Karin Dremel: So I'm there, and, um, and that gave me the opportunity in Boulder to continue to, um, to do many things and to, to sort of work.
• 4:33
  Karin Dremel: I'm a heilpraktiker here in Germany, naturopath roughly translated- Okay,
• 4:39
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah… Karin Dremel: in, in English.
• 4:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and, and I'm still working here too, online of course mostly.
• 4:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, and I'm a mental health professional in, uh, in… And have a private practice that I have named several different things over the, um, 25 years.
• 5:01
  Tracy Cartwright: So in Colorado, do you come under the banner of a naturopath as well?
• 5:07
  Karin Dremel: No, because there it is a separate education.
• 5:11
  Karin Dremel: You can even get a doctor title in there, right, in that v- venue.
• 5:17
  Karin Dremel: Okay.
• 5:17
  Karin Dremel: But I, it, it, um… For the longest time it was called registered psychotherapist, and about five years ago there was a political upheaval which, um, I'm not gonna go into and- Mm-hmm um, now we, I am grandmothered in with about 5,000 other people in the, in the state.
• 5:38
  Karin Dremel: Uh, so nobody can do this venue again, and we are now legally held to call ourselves unlicensed psychotherapists.
• 5:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, okay.
• 5:52
  Karin Dremel: And that is, you know, that's all I'm gonna say for that.
• 5:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 5:56
  Karin Dremel: So, um, so now I'm, I'm em- emphasizing way more, um, that I'm a systemic traumatologist.
• 6:07
  Karin Dremel: And this brings in, uh, my long learning really.
• 6:13
  Karin Dremel: Mm. Learning by literally in a classical sense, uh, being an apprentice with Angwin and a couple of other people at the time.
• 6:23
  Karin Dremel: And, um, yeah, so systemic traumatologist is also that, the, the, the, the, the thing that she eventually also … I mean, she's- Yeah, yeah calling herself that too.
• 6:35
  Karin Dremel: And, um, and my work I call mending systemic trauma and mending- Is my word that I replace for healing.
• 6:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 6:50
  Karin Dremel: With pretty deep, um, long time wrestling with healing, um, I am now seeing it this way that you and I as humans, we can together and mend things.
• 7:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 7:05
  Karin Dremel: We can bring fragmented or broken things into a mended space, and by doing that we're invoking healing.
• 7:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 7:16
  Karin Dremel: And healing is what nature does, what our selves do, what our … Or don't.
• 7:22
  Karin Dremel: Or however we, however we, um, define healing.
• 7:26
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Karin Dremel: So, um, yeah, so I sta- I try to step out of that commodified word.
• 7:34
  Karin Dremel: Mm. Actually industry.
• 7:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 7:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Now, how did you come across constellations?
• 7:42
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause y- as you said, Anngwyn wasn't doing or in constellations when you first met her.
• 7:49
  Tracy Cartwright: This is what I- So we had- … remember from Mexico, and I'm probably potentially may have it wrong, but did you introduce Anngwyn to constellations, is
• 7:58
  Karin Dremel: your- Oh, no.
• 7:58
  Karin Dremel: The thing was that she and I, for the first time of her exposure to Bert Hellinger, went to a hotel in Boulder where Hunter Beaumont-
• 8:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes… Karin Dremel: and Bert Hellinger were trip of, you know, over a number of places coming from the East Coast, if I re- It's a long time ago.
• 8:20
  Tracy Cartwright: That was 1997, as much as my- '97.
• 8:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and so we sat in that room and there were these two mens and, and as she always w- will say, he just sat down and said, "Who wants to work?" There were no slides and so forth and so
• 8:35
  Karin Dremel: forth.
• 8:36
  Karin Dremel: Yes.
• 8:37
  Karin Dremel: Um, so we sat there and we sat through that workshop, and part of that was that a few people in town had already made contact with constellation work- Mm and were then increasingly bringing people from Germany mostly at the time to, um … And I was not very connected with them, with, with the constellation work because I still was sort of transitioning, if you will.
• 9:05
  Karin Dremel: But you want me t- you want to know when I met it first.
• 9:07
  Karin Dremel: So I lived in Germany still quite significantly more than half of my life.
• 9:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 9:14
  Karin Dremel: I, I left here, um, to s- to, to … for the first time.
• 9:20
  Karin Dremel: Um, I was almost 40.
• 9:22
  Karin Dremel: So 30 years ago, as I said earlier, that's when I met Angwin.
• 9:28
  Karin Dremel: 36… It's 31.
• 9:29
  Karin Dremel: And, um, constellation work because I was German, and it started blossoming into public view in the late, um, in the late '80s.
• 9:42
  Karin Dremel: When I did my naturopath studies, 19, um, 1990 to '93, um, I had a colleague, a peer who also, uh, became a naturopath, with which is o- one venue to do, um, healing work, mending work in Germany- Mm-hmm uh, without a, a, um, a probation, without being a medical doctor.
• 10:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, yeah.
• 10:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:10
  Karin Dremel: So healing arts without being a medical doctor.
• 10:12
  Karin Dremel: So we together were people who, you know, supported each other and knew each other, and his name is Thomas
• 10:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Schaefer.
• 10:20
  Tracy Cartwright: I've heard of him, yep.
• 10:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 10:21
  Karin Dremel: Yep, you probably have because he introduced me to it, and then we were kind of, you know, interested in playing around a little bit as students do with everything, you know, from- Mm crystals to constellation work.
• 10:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:37
  Karin Dremel: To stay with the C words.
• 10:39
  Karin Dremel: And, um, and he went on to be- to become, uh, I've have, uh, you know, more than thir- almost 30… Yeah, you do the math, right?
• 10:50
  Karin Dremel: Last fall I contacted him And, um, I went to one of his constellation weekends- Mm-hmm … um, at Lake Constance for the first time in all of this time.
• 11:03
  Karin Dremel: Okay.
• 11:03
  Karin Dremel: 'Cause we, you know, in 1993 we were going our each ways, and pretty soon I was … And I was really interested in the trauma work, very personal reasons.
• 11:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:14
  Karin Dremel: So I, you know, got to be an acupuncturist because that felt like it would help sh- shift things and, and then other things I … You know, I tried everything.
• 11:26
  Karin Dremel: I'm also a, a certified Rolfer, which I did here in the US.
• 11:30
  Karin Dremel: So there's a long list of things and continuing what I was interested in and, uh, started doing.
• 11:37
  Karin Dremel: But that's when I first … So when I came to the, the US and I heard about constellation, you know, um, rumors or then they came into town, of course I was very eager to go with Angwin.
• 11:52
  Karin Dremel: And Angwin's- Yeah.
• 11:52
  Karin Dremel: And what did, what did you think when you- It reminded me- Sorry.
• 11:57
  Karin Dremel: Just let me finish this because that, I think, is part of the, the place where, um, I could take what I got from Angwin and also m- move on, not in different direction, but in different ways.
• 12:12
  Karin Dremel: And that was when she sat there, and after that, and she keeps telling this, people, as much as I have heard, um, from her also, that she sat in there and she said, "I have the social trauma piece." The social trauma piece.
• 12:27
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Karin Dremel: Meaning what I call systemic trauma, right?
• 12:31
  Karin Dremel: And he has the method.
• 12:33
  Karin Dremel: And that's when she pivoted and began we … Oh, and then in 1998 we were in prison together with Bert Hellinger, which is also one of those stories, um, where
• 12:47
  Tracy Cartwright: he- And I'd love for you to share that, 'cause I remember you telling us the, the story, so I'd love for you to share that with the audience.
• 12:54
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause- There'll be people going,"What? They were in prison together?"
• 13:00
  Karin Dremel: So what that means is Angwin stayed in contact and, uh, found out that, uh, Bert Hellinger was invited to Britain to Winston… See, this is one of the words where I'm getting confused.
• 13:14
  Karin Dremel: A town.
• 13:14
  Karin Dremel: Um- Uh-huh.
• 13:15
  Karin Dremel: It, it, it will, it may come.
• 13:17
  Karin Dremel: So, uh, by constellation people there who are the first generation British people.
• 13:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 13:23
  Karin Dremel: Yep.
• 13:23
  Karin Dremel: And, um, and with a whole German entourage, I called it entourage because it felt like that, that we joined in England.
• 13:32
  Karin Dremel: He was invited to do constellations in three prisons.
• 13:35
  Karin Dremel: Mm. Two, you know, high safety prisons and one youth also safety prison- prison.
• 13:41
  Karin Dremel: And so we were in a little Airbnb and the room was really small.
• 13:47
  Karin Dremel: We, uh, somebody could only get up from the bed to walk out if the other person didn't at the same time.
• 13:54
  Karin Dremel: That's sort of her memory, and I, I r- remember that too.
• 13:59
  Karin Dremel: So that's how we then for the second time together were in the presence of, uh, Bert Hellinger doing a rather large, um, uh, situation with prisoners in… Yeah.
• 14:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 14:16
  Tracy Cartwright: So you went to the three prisons together or just to one?
• 14:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 14:20
  Tracy Cartwright: To the three.
• 14:20
  Tracy Cartwright: To
• 14:21
  Karin Dremel: three.
• 14:21
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 14:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And what was… What, like, what happened as far as-
• 14:26
  Karin Dremel: What happened is it was classical constellations.
• 14:29
  Karin Dremel: I mean, this was even ear- even for B- Bert, B- Bert, early in his, in his way of working.
• 14:36
  Karin Dremel: So he did classical constellations with a number of people.
• 14:42
  Karin Dremel: The one that I mostly remember was the one when… And I ha- and then, you know, and then I said, you know, I won't talk the whole time about Angwin, but or of, you know, of our joint life as, as me if you know first, uh, uh, coming as a, as a client and then as a student and then as an assistant and then translator in German lands and so forth for five, five years.
• 15:09
  Karin Dremel: And, um, so he was, he was there.
• 15:12
  Karin Dremel: And the one that I do remember, um, is the one where Angwin has a story that she very much remembers, but I wasn't so close, you know, I wasn't- Close in with conversations
• 15:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm… Karin Dremel: I was the assistant.
• 15:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, not virtual, but… So where, where told him, claims to told, that's her story, claims to h- to have told him that constellation needs trauma work Yes
• 15:42
  Karin Dremel: constellation needs that people study trauma, right?
• 15:46
  Karin Dremel: And then fast-forward t- to almost, that was '97, you do the 40 years or so 39 … um, 35, yeah, 39.
• 15:56
  Karin Dremel: But 35 years I would say there's now the Trauma University that, um, that she is, you know, that sh- Yeah … that is sort of built around her initially, and where she offers people whatever her trauma piece and way of working and teaching is now.
• 16:16
  Karin Dremel: I wouldn't know because it's so long ago that I took it-
• 16:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm… Karin Dremel: took what she had there Did you ever hear of any of the, of any of the ripple effects of any of the work that was done in the prisons, how, what changes it made?
• 16:32
  Karin Dremel: No.
• 16:32
  Karin Dremel: No.
• 16:32
  Tracy Cartwright: When you
• 16:33
  Karin Dremel: privy
• 16:33
  Tracy Cartwright: to any
• 16:33
  Karin Dremel: of that?
• 16:33
  Karin Dremel: All I know is that that one constellation with a very, very, very seriously traumatized man, like a trauma story-
• 16:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 16:44
  Karin Dremel: on, on, you know, who then was in this prison because he had gotten into a fight and, um, the other person died in the… So that's why they were there.
• 16:57
  Karin Dremel: But when… So the, I, I remember that very much and, and, um, there is one description that I know in writing, and I would have to, I would have to find that for you, where somebody wrote about being there, but I would have to- Mm look that up in, in, in References.
• 17:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I mean, it's, it's great to hear that even way back then.
• 17:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, that's, we're going back in quite a number of years now, that, and it was still relatively early-ish in constellation that, that you guys went to this prison and, or these prisons, and did this work.
• 17:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So wonderful
• 17:39
  Karin Dremel: to know that.
• 17:40
  Karin Dremel: And it was, it was, i- you know, English first generation.
• 17:42
  Karin Dremel: These people- Mm-hmm … organized that and had some access to the prison with their, um, integrative healing group.
• 17:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 17:51
  Karin Dremel: And so that's why he could, he could come and we were coming from the US
• 17:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 17:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 17:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Let me ask you another question that's a little bit, that's away from that question, those questions.
• 18:05
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you describe to people what you do in, in so far as constellation goes?
• 18:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Insufficiently.
• 18:11
  Karin Dremel: Next question.
• 18:14
  Karin Dremel: People might not hear from me very well because I don't shout very well.
• 18:20
  Karin Dremel: When people feel, see, experience my work, then- They are with it
• 18:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 18:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So it w-, do you think it's more a word of mouth type thing?
• 18:36
  Karin Dremel: Yeah
• 18:37
  Tracy Cartwright: People tell people tell people.
• 18:38
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 18:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Love that.
• 18:41
  Tracy Cartwright: What is one of the most memorable moments, um, that you've maybe witnessed or experienced in constellations to do… You know, whether it's the orders of love or, I don't know.
• 18:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there a, in your, um, experience of the work over the years, has there been something that's really stood out to you?
• 19:03
  Karin Dremel: What stands out for me is not so much, you know, the tenets.
• 19:10
  Karin Dremel: Tenets?
• 19:11
  Karin Dremel: Tenets.
• 19:12
  Karin Dremel: But the tenets of the constellation time, which is w- the thing that I call withnessing.
• 19:18
  Karin Dremel: Witnessing.
• 19:19
  Tracy Cartwright: No, with-nessing With-nessing.
• 19:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Ah, withnessing.
• 19:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 19:25
  Karin Dremel: Which is what people in the circle do, and in a more prof- it's not profound, in a more in-depth way what people do when they represent.
• 19:37
  Karin Dremel: Whatever is happening for representatives are experiences that they otherwise might never have.
• 19:45
  Karin Dremel: They are with, literally, you know, standing in a place-
• 19:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 19:51
  Karin Dremel: that in the field has all the markers of somebody else's… This is my knee.
• 19:59
  Karin Dremel: I do this sitting.
• 20:00
  Karin Dremel: Of somebody else's place and experience.
• 20:03
  Karin Dremel: And in 2017-18, I wrote a master's thesis on representing.
• 20:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, wow.
• 20:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 20:12
  Karin Dremel: And, um, and the claim being that, um, it is sort of a combination of an I and thou moment so that, you know, that, that, that, and, and a stepping into, hopefully, unbridled responsibility for the experience of another, for the presence of another.
• 20:37
  Karin Dremel: Being at a mountain.
• 20:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 20:39
  Karin Dremel: Being at a terribly, um, terrifyingly and terribly, um, wounded man who now is, you know, a murderer and a perpetrator and so forth, um, both.
• 20:52
  Karin Dremel: So that, that's, um, this being with, right, this withnessing Even when we just sit in the circle and we are the ones who are witnessing, but we're not just You know, witnesses can be asked, "You know, and how was it?" "Well, I saw this over there, and, and then they said…" But in a circle, the invitation at least, we're not too exhausted or just need to tune out or whatever, is to, to withness.
• 21:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah, I get that.
• 21:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Because there's this, you're with it.
• 21:27
  Tracy Cartwright: You are with it.
• 21:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, that's probably the best description for it.
• 21:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 21:32
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 21:32
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Karin Dremel: Mm. And the real battle about that word was with the spell check.
• 21:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Was what, sorry?
• 21:37
  Karin Dremel: The real battle with that word was with the computer spell check.
• 21:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, yeah, of course.
• 21:45
  Tracy Cartwright: It's like duck, isn't it?
• 21:47
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Tracy Cartwright: It's gonna correct it.
• 21:49
  Tracy Cartwright: I mean, well, it's not duck.
• 21:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:51
  Tracy Cartwright: But it's gonna correct it to duck.
• 21:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 21:54
  Tracy Cartwright: With check.
• 21:55
  Karin Dremel: And from that also, me withnessing, right?
• 21:58
  Karin Dremel: In the way- Yeah … that the facilitator withnessing, um, th- that is, uh, and you asked me what is the, you know, most impressive or if however you, um, you, you said it, or the most memorable, the most remarkable.
• 22:10
  Karin Dremel: Most
• 22:11
  Tracy Cartwright: memorable, yeah.
• 22:12
  Karin Dremel: Um, and remarkable as in I'm remarking on it now, um, is, is really what happens in a room where 5, 10, 15 strangers- come together.
• 22:26
  Karin Dremel: Two people know each other, five know me or whatever, and within, uh, within moments even, and specifically hours, there is a togetherness, a witness that has happened that people often- Yeah remark on.
• 22:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 22:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Magic.
• 22:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 22:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 22:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I re- I remember that.
• 22:49
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember w- being a, um, you know, in the hot seat and witnessing, witnessing people that were, um, representing for me and just that whole ta- what they were feeling, what they were with within my system, without me having to tell them anything.
• 23:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 23:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And how they just stepped into that, and it was remarkable.
• 23:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 23:13
  Tracy Cartwright: It was weird.
• 23:15
  Karin Dremel: I do remember one, 2001, my friends from Switzerland who I met in a trauma training in Switzerland as I was translating, 2001.
• 23:29
  Karin Dremel: And no, that was actually probably'99, and then we were there again.
• 23:35
  Karin Dremel: An- anyway, so they, they visited a couple days ago just briefly- Mm-hmm coming from somewhere overnight and going back to, to Winterthur in Switzerland.
• 23:46
  Karin Dremel: I remember when they were in town and I had organized Ivan Verney, Ivan Verney from Switzerland Constellation and otherwise.
• 23:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 23:55
  Karin Dremel: Splendid.
• 23:58
  Karin Dremel: I was asked to be… This was part of my, you know, ongoing training with more experienced, um, people, and I was asked in Boulder, uh, by a woman I didn't know, to be her body.
• 24:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 24:15
  Karin Dremel: Okay.
• 24:15
  Karin Dremel: So I'm being her body, and I don't remember exactly what that w- you know, it's, I mean, I could d- you know, remember.
• 24:22
  Karin Dremel: From then on, that woman, whenever we cross path in town, usually, you know, at the coffee shop or, she's like, "Oh, my body." Right?
• 24:33
  Karin Dremel: And, and that, that, um, you know, she, she didn't remember my name or anything, but she remembered apparently everything that was, was, was my offering, if you will.
• 24:45
  Karin Dremel: Mm. Yeah.
• 24:45
  Karin Dremel: Or, you know, presencing with, um, witnessing whatever was necessary to know at that time about- Mm … for her about body, her body.
• 24:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 25:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And I think one of the, one of the things about constellations, one of the many things about constellations that I really love is that connection that, as you said, you know, there's a group of strangers, 5, 10, 15, however many's in the room, and, um, and you feel that connection.
• 25:20
  Tracy Cartwright: That are, that you don't get in other types of work generally.
• 25:25
  Tracy Cartwright: In some, you know, there is other modalities that you will, but I think it's that where you're touching on something so deep within the system, aren't you?
• 25:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And then creating that, in that moment, in that time that you're together, you're creating a whole nother system and there's this, um-
• 25:41
  Karin Dremel: That's right.
• 25:42
  Karin Dremel: It's a third
• 25:42
  Tracy Cartwright: space … shared field.
• 25:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 25:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Karin Dremel: It's really a third space, which is, which is named a field.
• 25:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 25:53
  Karin Dremel: Which often, depending on who it is and how they start things, is, is, um, dedicated, explicitly dedicated as a field.
• 26:04
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 26:04
  Karin Dremel: And often, you know, it can be in nature and constellations outside too, but often that room is a third space for everybody there in its entirety that in that way usually does not repeat.
• 26:20
  Karin Dremel: So it becomes this container plus all that's in there of individuals who then step into, and I wanna go back to, to this, um, this responsibility for the other, even- If it hurts.
• 26:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah.
• 26:40
  Tracy Cartwright: ' Karin Dremel: Cause some Yeah.
• 26:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 26:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And you, and you sometimes get people saying, wow, they're like, they're very amazed and, and overwhelmed often that someone else would be willing to hold that for them, to hold that space for that to be seen and to be, in, in your words, to be mended.
• 27:02
  Tracy Cartwright: To find the mending in that.
• 27:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, yeah.
• 27:07
  Tracy Cartwright: It's big stuff.
• 27:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Earlier before we started recording, you shared with me the, the theme or the, what you specialize in.
• 27:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Would you like to share a little bit about that with the listeners and the viewers?
• 27:19
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause I, it's fascinating.
• 27:21
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 27:22
  Karin Dremel: With pleasure.
• 27:23
  Karin Dremel: So I have d- developed, you know, for my way of seeing things and, and then from that as sort of the backdrop of, you know, that I'm, I'm working with, with nested trauma.
• 27:34
  Karin Dremel: Nested means it starts… And, and I have a, I have an image that I created for that.
• 27:42
  Karin Dremel: Um, it starts with acknowledging and, uh, and beginning in, in the, in the core.
• 27:48
  Karin Dremel: Um, starts with origin.
• 27:50
  Karin Dremel: Mm. An origin has, um… can, can f- eh, each one of these can be filled with a variety of meanings.
• 27:58
  Karin Dremel: Some people have an origin story that they, you know, it might be religious or otherwise and so forth.
• 28:03
  Karin Dremel: So, uh, origin.
• 28:05
  Karin Dremel: And then there is, um, there is a gestation and birth, or gestation and birth in themselves.
• 28:13
  Karin Dremel: Um, you know, the first nine months from- Yeah … conception to actual, the first breath, if you will, has its own, uh, trauma, vulnerability.
• 28:24
  Karin Dremel: Maybe the most profound vulnerability- Mm … when something goes, goes wrong.
• 28:31
  Karin Dremel: A lot can go wrong
• 28:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes… Karin Dremel: in terms of what comes next.
• 28:36
  Tracy Cartwright: And then there's family of origin, right?
• 28:39
  Tracy Cartwright: The parenting.
• 28:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Hopefully, um, the parents are not single parents, you know, let alone single parents, but they have the, you know, grandparents are there, their uncle and aunts are there, and so forth, which in many places is not the case.
• 28:55
  Tracy Cartwright: And- Mm … um, I live in the US, so that system, you know, might be, um, plentiful or it might be missing as a systemic- Sure … support or influence.
• 29:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And then around, you know, six, six years old, people step into the next, um, uh, a nest- nested round, uh, where things can go very, very well, supported by the previous, uh, or take, you know, tag along what wasn't sufficient or on a continuum all the way to terrible, um, where, where children leave the home, right?
• 29:40
  Tracy Cartwright: That, that nest, if you will, where the, where, where the- Fr- from seven till, till about the time they leave home… Karin Dremel: from s- from seven to there are institutions who come in- Oh, I see … and others who influence, right?
• 29:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 29:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Karin Dremel: And de- uh, depending when, how long they're in school, and then they may- you know, be that long in school.
• 30:03
  Karin Dremel: They may be an apprentice in a craft.
• 30:05
  Karin Dremel: Um, you know, used to be- Mm-hmm … 14 or 15 and, uh, and so forth.
• 30:10
  Karin Dremel: So then that next nested, uh, possibility of influence and dearth, um, is, is stepping into, uh, influences from institutions, kindergarten to, um, you know, high school and/or whatever, university, whatever.
• 30:30
  Karin Dremel: And then in, in those times, um, things go wider, right?
• 30:36
  Karin Dremel: Then there is other institutions, like some people go to the military, which then is, is a whole next ring, if you will, of, of experience and formation.
• 30:48
  Karin Dremel: And the, the, you know, the militaries of the world, um, pride themselves to reform the people that they get into instruments of their interests, right?
• 31:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm, mm.
• 31:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:01
  Karin Dremel: And, um, and so it goes on and on all the way out to being part of the world, right?
• 31:08
  Karin Dremel: Being part of planet Earth.
• 31:11
  Karin Dremel: A
• 31:11
  Tracy Cartwright: larger system.
• 31:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 31:13
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 31:14
  Karin Dremel: All the way out.
• 31:15
  Karin Dremel: And then, um, and then of course, um, to sort of the person who, uh, gave us the image and the impressions and the, of, uh, uh, larger forces, greater forces, so of course Angun again, right?
• 31:30
  Karin Dremel: So, so in some way in my, in my… Uh, what do you call that, um, image that I made?
• 31:37
  Tracy Cartwright: The larger- Or
• 31:38
  Karin Dremel: your
• 31:38
  Tracy Cartwright: collage that you made.
• 31:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Karin Dremel: It's, it… Th- that is a drawing, uh, you know, a thing.
• 31:43
  Karin Dremel: But I could make a collage.
• 31:45
  Karin Dremel: Thank you.
• 31:45
  Karin Dremel: I might.
• 31:46
  Karin Dremel: Which I call constellage.
• 31:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Constellage.
• 31:49
  Karin Dremel: It's the collages that I make is a way of doing constellation work via an art channel.
• 31:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Karin Dremel: Either with a question asked and then constellated from images, and some people use… I don't use language because, um, it, it's si- similar to the cards, right?
• 32:09
  Karin Dremel: Language- Mm … narrows things down.
• 32:12
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 32:13
  Karin Dremel: Narrows the narrative that might emerge later down.
• 32:17
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Karin Dremel: But this image with the nested, you know, nested ovals that, um, you know, get ever wider really, um, really, it shows the, um, what I mean when I say systemic traumatology.
• 32:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:35
  Karin Dremel: Because I
• 32:36
  Tracy Cartwright: think- When, when you said nested I also thought of those nesting dolls.
• 32:39
  Tracy Cartwright: You know-
• 32:39
  Karin Dremel: I have done that … with the little one
• 32:41
  Tracy Cartwright: and then the next
• 32:41
  Karin Dremel: one- I have used- … and
• 32:42
  Tracy Cartwright: the next one.
• 32:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 32:43
  Karin Dremel: That's right.
• 32:43
  Karin Dremel: I have used that.
• 32:44
  Karin Dremel: I called it Matryoshka do- you know, the Matryoshka principle.
• 32:48
  Karin Dremel: But that in and in and of itself is a wonderful, uh, method that, that was in San Diego At the conference 2000 13, 15, 16, 15, 15, I believe, where I called it the m- Matryoshka principle.
• 33:04
  Karin Dremel: But that really in some way, um, gives us the image of the person and their parts, if you will.
• 33:12
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 33:12
  Karin Dremel: Right now it's called parts.
• 33:14
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 33:14
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 33:14
  Karin Dremel: Their, their parts that, that operate, um, consciously and unconsciously and lead the thing or, uh, you know, hide the thing or whatever it, whatever happens.
• 33:28
  Karin Dremel: While this, these nested ovals really go bring in, right, bring in all of the things.
• 33:35
  Karin Dremel: Bring in racism.
• 33:35
  Karin Dremel: Bring in, um, you know, whatever the, on whatever … Once you leave your home.
• 33:41
  Karin Dremel: I mean, he- um, African Americans often really get, get, get confr- k- k- children really have gotten or get confronted, uh, with white world when, when they leave into the world, into the world.
• 33:59
  Karin Dremel: When- Mm … when they leave the family at six years, four years, five years, whatever, um, and have experiences.
• 34:06
  Karin Dremel: There's a l- there's quite a bit of literature, um, that, that, um, you know, names that-
• 34:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah… Karin Dremel: were- White world… Karin Dremel: they were
• 34:15
  Karin Dremel: protected.
• 34:16
  Karin Dremel: Where they were protected by-
• 34:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm… Karin Dremel: you know, aunties and, you Yeah.
• 34:23
  Tracy Cartwright: So w- in this nesting, if you're working with someone, uh, like that's a lot.
• 34:30
  Tracy Cartwright: You wouldn't be doing all of that in one session.
• 34:32
  Karin Dremel: No, no.
• 34:33
  Karin Dremel: Okay.
• 34:33
  Karin Dremel: But what I do do is, what I do do is in a couple hours or so, um, that I invite people to create a map, a landscape together, right?
• 34:46
  Karin Dremel: Where, where, where did, where were you born, right?
• 34:49
  Karin Dremel: I was born am Fusters Odenwalds.
• 34:52
  Karin Dremel: I'm an Odenwaldian.
• 34:53
  Karin Dremel: So no, I'm not a US American, and I never will be.
• 34:58
  Karin Dremel: Because that's, you know, five- Mm-kay … five kilometers from here, 10 kilometers or so.
• 35:04
  Karin Dremel: So, um, so I make, I make maps and then I ask those questions that might be, uh, you know, that are im- important for a developmental situation to where the person now is.
• 35:19
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 35:19
  Karin Dremel: That will likely not include, uh, discussing greater forces, but- If they are, like myself, born 11 years after Auschwitz doors opened, those are for, uh, th- those are for a newborn person, uh, of course historical factors, but also pretty much greater forces.
• 35:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:42
  Karin Dremel: It's- In, in, in which for the last, you know, um, for the last, uh, 50-some years, for 60 years, everything in Central Europe was involved in one way or the other.
• 35:53
  Karin Dremel: For those who
• 35:54
  Tracy Cartwright: can't see Karen, she's doing the hand movements, twisting, shaking around each other.
• 36:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Snaking around, twisting up into a knot, turning, um-
• 36:04
  Karin Dremel: Into a knot, right?
• 36:05
  Karin Dremel: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:05
  Karin Dremel: We're knot- Yeah … nodal points.
• 36:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 36:08
  Karin Dremel: My parents were children of war.
• 36:10
  Karin Dremel: My grandparents were grown-up people during, uh, Nazi Germany, raising their children in whatever way.
• 36:18
  Karin Dremel: Um, my great-grandparents were people who partook and suffered World War I. So my… So between, between my grandmother and me, between my grand- my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and my mother, not me, but as a, as a, um… There were 20, don't quote me on that, 27 or 26 years of, um, boots on the ground War
• 36:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 36:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Gosh, that's a lot of war.
• 36:49
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 36:49
  Karin Dremel: have a slide on that one too.
• 36:51
  Tracy Cartwright: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 36:53
  Tracy Cartwright: How, I mean, these things, the, the themes that run in our families or the things that … Sometimes the things that affect us deepest in our families are the things that we end up being some of the greatest resources in our work.
• 37:07
  Karin Dremel: Oh, yeah.
• 37:07
  Karin Dremel: Absolutely.
• 37:08
  Tracy Cartwright: In our callings.
• 37:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 37:10
  Karin Dremel: And I'm going back to what I, what we talked about earlier.
• 37:13
  Karin Dremel: I sort of digress.
• 37:14
  Karin Dremel: Help me not digress if I do.
• 37:17
  Karin Dremel: Um, my story, and I won't, you know, elaborate, but my story is extreme early, um, developmental trauma.
• 37:25
  Karin Dremel: Intrauterine.
• 37:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 37:27
  Karin Dremel: And then birth, and then for four months to 15 months, 16 months maybe.
• 37:34
  Karin Dremel: It's not exactly clear.
• 37:36
  Karin Dremel: Um, uh, you know, a couple of situations that are pretty serious trauma.
• 37:43
  Karin Dremel: And it took me until I was 39 or 40, almost 40, to get to the US to really find somebody who knew to work with trauma, who was recommended, and you need to go there.
• 37:54
  Karin Dremel: And I said, "I can't even hardly get out of bed.
• 37:57
  Karin Dremel: Christian, are you mad?
• 37:59
  Karin Dremel: I'm going not to the US." And three months later, I did.
• 38:02
  Karin Dremel: Mm. He promised that he would pick me up at the airport and get me to the River House, and he did.
• 38:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 38:09
  Tracy Cartwright: That's fantastic.
• 38:10
  Karin Dremel: So now what I'm doing, and now what I'm also really bringing in, is working with very early trauma.
• 38:19
  Karin Dremel: So I might have a representative in there, and then I might also have the six months old and the And for some people that is not news.
• 38:29
  Karin Dremel: That's parts work and constellation work.
• 38:31
  Karin Dremel: But it's, it's, it's definitely … It's not the kind of parts work where we ask the part to get out of the way so we can do the right thing, where we literally stay with the parts and- Mm … somatically resource them and protect them and nourish them and whatever needs to be done.
• 38:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 38:51
  Karin Dremel: Strengthen them.
• 38:51
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 38:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 38:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Resource them.
• 38:55
  Karin Dremel: Right.
• 38:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Give them a place.
• 38:57
  Karin Dremel: And that's where the actual, that's where the actual mending happens.
• 39:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah.
• 39:04
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 39:04
  Karin Dremel: And mending doesn't need mean, uh, creating, you know, the wholeness wholeness.
• 39:10
  Karin Dremel: It simply means to take pieces and bring them close enough and weave them enough that the fabric holds-
• 39:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Nice.
• 39:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah… Karin Dremel: a little better, you fraying.
• 39:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And I think, y- you know, when, as you talk about that, n- it makes me think about so sometimes in society when we've been experienced this early trauma or, and we're just trying to fit in and we're trying to find our place and we're, and we sometimes are, are trying to be like someone else.
• 39:43
  Tracy Cartwright: But when you get to that point and you are starting to, and you are weaving this, uh, the mending and the weaving, you discover your own unique patterns.
• 39:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 39:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Your u- the, the uniqueness of your own print, right?
• 39:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And, uh, yeah.
• 40:01
  Karin Dremel: You know, and it, it- It's a- My, my, m- my metaphor for, um, trauma work, right, my metaphor for trauma work is darning, literally, right?
• 40:12
  Karin Dremel: You have a piece, you have a sock.
• 40:14
  Karin Dremel: One group that I did came the next day and had, and they were ongoing, and I was a guest to facilitate.
• 40:21
  Karin Dremel: They did ongoing work, so they knew each other very well.
• 40:24
  Karin Dremel: And the next day somebody came with a sock, and their new, um, what do you call that?
• 40:29
  Karin Dremel: See, this is one of those moments I couldn't even tell you in German.
• 40:33
  Karin Dremel: Um- Maybe a memento … was, was the sock became their thing.
• 40:37
  Karin Dremel: Yeah, yeah Their, their sign for the group.
• 40:40
  Tracy Cartwright: The what, sorry?
• 40:42
  Karin Dremel: The s- the, the, the, the sign, the signature.
• 40:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, the sign.
• 40:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:48
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 40:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 40:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:50
  Karin Dremel: Because you start in firmness, right?
• 40:53
  Karin Dremel: There's a hole, and then there's the whole sock.
• 40:56
  Karin Dremel: So you start working into what holds, and you make this.
• 41:02
  Karin Dremel: Mm. And then you do the same thing so.
• 41:05
  Karin Dremel: So you're literally anchoring the new weaving in the healthy, strong part.
• 41:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Creating strong foundations.
• 41:13
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 41:14
  Karin Dremel: And people have strong parts.
• 41:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Karin Dremel: And you start sort of gently, you know, bringing, you know, making, manifesting that in some way, either through the mapping.
• 41:26
  Karin Dremel: Who was your … "Oh, my great-grandmother," right?
• 41:29
  Karin Dremel: She was the person- Yeah … who held everything together.
• 41:34
  Tracy Cartwright: The topis and the one that, uh, holds it all together.
• 41:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:37
  Karin Dremel: Or in some, in, in another situation with a gentleman, he, um, he, he had a, uh, he had a, an imaginary.
• 41:45
  Karin Dremel: Big story around that literally saved, yeah, his sanity really.
• 41:51
  Karin Dremel: Made and saved his sanity because everything else was so challenging.
• 41:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that analogy, um, of the darling, and you're creating that structure, and you're anchoring into the, to the solidness of this, this, the sides that are still holding together, and even though there's a hole and there's a big s- empty space, you can, you can rebuild from there, right?
• 42:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Karin Dremel: You make one line and one line and one line.
• 42:20
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 42:20
  Karin Dremel: And like a bridge, right?
• 42:21
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 42:21
  Karin Dremel: Bridges, bridges, bridges, bridges this way.
• 42:24
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 42:24
  Karin Dremel: And then you weave the bridges together into a new fabric.
• 42:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause I mean, I remember in part of my journey as well, there was a time when- I, you know, I didn't feel like there was anything to h- that was holding me together because it was so clouded in the, the trauma that was, or the, the memories that were floating around.
• 42:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And so in that anchoring into the solid and being reminded that there are, there is the strength and there is, um, something to h- hold onto, and there are the parts of you that have got this and that.
• 43:02
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause qui- quite often those things can get lost 'cause you feel like you're drowning a bit in the, in the overwhelm of-
• 43:08
  Karin Dremel: Oh, absolutely
• 43:08
  Tracy Cartwright: of everything.
• 43:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So yeah.
• 43:10
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that.
• 43:11
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 43:12
  Tracy Cartwright: A beautiful analogy.
• 43:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 43:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Darling, that's amazing.
• 43:17
  Karin Dremel: So- And one of those can even be the therapist or the facilitator, and the group.
• 43:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 43:23
  Karin Dremel: The presence, the witnesses.
• 43:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:26
  Karin Dremel: Because we can step into the now to resource the then.
• 43:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I've done a little bit of that.
• 43:32
  Tracy Cartwright: I like this.
• 43:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So if someone w- wants to work with you, do they need to come in person, or do you work online with them as well?
• 43:39
  Karin Dremel: I work online.
• 43:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 43:42
  Karin Dremel: I do Zoom, I do Zoom work
• 43:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 43:44
  Karin Dremel: And, um, you know, and I have it set up a little bit like this and, um, let me take this away, and then I do this
• 43:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 43:53
  Karin Dremel: Yep.
• 43:53
  Tracy Cartwright: And,
• 43:54
  Karin Dremel: and then- Flying to outer space I use, I use things that are available.
• 43:59
  Karin Dremel: I mean, I, at home I have other things.
• 44:01
  Karin Dremel: Right.
• 44:01
  Karin Dremel: Can you see what, what I'm doing?
• 44:03
  Karin Dremel: Not really-
• 44:04
  Tracy Cartwright: So right now you look like you're doing a magic trick because your hands are coming out of, out of space onto a planet.
• 44:10
  Tracy Cartwright: For those
• 44:11
  Karin Dremel: who- How did you know?
• 44:12
  Tracy Cartwright: For those who can't see This
• 44:14
  Karin Dremel: background is, is It's the first time I'm doing a background for FYI.
• 44:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I had, I had one with Hobbiton the other day, and I moved, and someone said, "Oh, look, she's just … like it was sucked into the Hobbit house," because sometimes the screen absorbs you, doesn't it?
• 44:30
  Karin Dremel: Right.
• 44:31
  Karin Dremel: Mm-hmm.
• 44:31
  Karin Dremel: So what I do, I just put it onto the table and I call it tabletop constellations.
• 44:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Hmm.
• 44:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 44:37
  Karin Dremel: No, and I have not, um … you know, I cannot sell you the instrument that I d- did, um, you know, designed or so.
• 44:44
  Karin Dremel: You find ev- you find things.
• 44:47
  Karin Dremel: Yes You find things wherever you
• 44:49
  Tracy Cartwright: are.
• 44:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, bottle tops and, uh, USB sticks and cables and, um- Whatever it is … I've got Blu- I've got Blu Tack and some lip balm and some crystals- And- and I do all sorts of things around… Karin Dremel: and if we need really It's- Yeah … it's the trick again.
• 45:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And it also means if you really start having some practice with that, you can do it in every caf- coffee shop.
• 45:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 45:14
  Karin Dremel: There are tons of little things, the sugar bag and the thingy and the thing and
• 45:18
  Tracy Cartwright: the thing.
• 45:18
  Tracy Cartwright: The ketchup and the salt and the pepper and the … Yep.
• 45:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Done a g- done a few of those as well.
• 45:23
  Tracy Cartwright: They're really handy, really handy.
• 45:25
  Tracy Cartwright: So s- if someone wants to work with you, they can find you online?
• 45:29
  Karin Dremel: They can find me online.
• 45:31
  Karin Dremel: I am very unhappy presently with my website, and part of what I wanna do while I'm here is find somebody to work with.
• 45:39
  Karin Dremel: And, um, the person I first wanted to, they are … It's midsummer here, so August everybody's gone.
• 45:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 45:48
  Karin Dremel: And I didn't really put that into, so the one person I had connected, they are leaving on Friday for two and a half weeks, and then I'm almost gone.
• 45:58
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 45:59
  Karin Dremel: Um, so I'm still looking for somebody.
• 46:01
  Karin Dremel: So I, um- So, so do you- You will find, you will find that some things are outdated and not taken care of in the lower.
• 46:11
  Karin Dremel: But there is a contact page.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: That's all they need.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Contact page.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, the website is www, my name, Karin Dreمل,
• 46:24
  Karin Dremel: one word, Karin Dreml, .com.
• 46:28
  Karin Dremel: .com.
• 46:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 46:31
  Karin Dremel: And then there's a contact page, and if everything goes well, in Germany we do this We squeeze thumbs
• 46:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm
• 46:41
  Karin Dremel: With yours.
• 46:43
  Karin Dremel: You cross fingers.
• 46:44
  Karin Dremel: Um, if everything goes well, um, I will receive an email from you, from someone who wants to contact me, and, um, and respond.
• 46:56
  Karin Dremel: Okay.
• 46:56
  Karin Dremel: And then whoever has contacted me like that can celebrate with me when I actually have a new website with a .eu ending.
• 47:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Nice.
• 47:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Nice.
• 47:06
  Karin Dremel: I am orienting back
• 47:10
  Tracy Cartwright: To, yeah, to your homeland
• 47:12
  Karin Dremel: To, to, yeah
• 47:15
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm just interested, when you said that in Germany you tuck your thumbs in, that's really interesting.
• 47:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I've just had, like, a little ding, ding, ding moment.
• 47:22
  Tracy Cartwright: So that is something that my mum always did.
• 47:25
  Tracy Cartwright: She always tucked it… She would tuck her thumbs in, and particularly if she was nervous and needed that thing.
• 47:31
  Tracy Cartwright: And Sarah Pattern talks about this being, like, I think the hypothalamus, and it's the… And it's, like, a
• 47:37
  Karin Dremel: protection.
• 47:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah Um, if you think about the hand and the brain and the connection there.
• 47:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and so what was it for in Germany, in German?
• 47:46
  Karin Dremel: In Germany, it's the equivalent to crossing your fingers- Oh, crossing your fingers for good luck Yes, you're right And just recently I told somebody.
• 47:52
  Karin Dremel: So we, we press, w- you know, we, we, the, the, the translation is pressing thumbs, Daumen drücken.
• 48:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 48:01
  Karin Dremel: Right?
• 48:01
  Karin Dremel: Thumbs, press-
• 48:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm … drücken.
• 48:04
  Karin Dremel: Daumen drücken.
• 48:06
  Karin Dremel: And then some- And we talked a little bit about it with that person, and then they said, "Oh, that is very different than crossing thi- fingers, because you can press your s- thumbs for somebody else." And, and we actually have a saying about that.
• 48:21
  Karin Dremel: Ich drücke dir die Daumen, I squeeze for you my thumbs.
• 48:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh.
• 48:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Could
• 48:27
  Karin Dremel: you explain that a little bit more?
• 48:29
  Karin Dremel: And that means I, I, I'm partaking in wishing and making you luck.
• 48:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Ah, right.
• 48:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay, yeah.
• 48:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Ah, great.
• 48:37
  Karin Dremel: And they said, "You can't do that with the thumbs." I don't think we do this in, in, in, in, in, you know- Right understanding of what crossing fingers is.
• 48:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:46
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 48:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Fascinating how
• 48:48
  Karin Dremel: things cross over This, this, by the way, this thing is Dan Siegel's work, one of his early ways.
• 48:54
  Karin Dremel: He's brilliant in finding metaphors.
• 48:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, yeah.
• 48:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, she probably did quite Dan Siegel, but I just knew from here- I
• 49:02
  Karin Dremel: w- I would imagine,
• 49:03
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah Yeah, yeah.
• 49:04
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause I know she has… She mentions him quite a bit.
• 49:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so yeah.
• 49:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And I found that fascinating, because that was always something.
• 49:11
  Tracy Cartwright: The first time my mother was represented in the field, her representative did that, and I remember seeing them do that and going, "That's what my mother does all the time.
• 49:21
  Tracy Cartwright: When she gets nervous, she would, she would do that.
• 49:23
  Tracy Cartwright: She would hold her, her thumbs." Like, I guess, you know, like, if you think about it as that luck thing, but it's also that, that feeling safety thing as well, so.
• 49:32
  Karin Dremel: But yeah.
• 49:33
  Karin Dremel: But, but e- even if you, you know, if even if you just do it really slowly and you bring in your thumb and you fold that in, in, there is a whole somatic response.
• 49:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm, mm. And, and sometimes I'd fi- I'd see her doing this as well, just holding her thumb with the other hand, holding like-
• 49:53
  Karin Dremel: And you have children, right?
• 49:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes
• 49:57
  Karin Dremel: Yeah.
• 49:58
  Karin Dremel: This, this, this also is, you know, a child holding onto the thumb
• 50:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah… Karin Dremel: that con- contact Mm. Yeah
• 50:07
  Karin Dremel: Something reassuring and self-reassuring to do this.
• 50:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I remember that as a child, would hold on to my … Yeah.
• 50:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 50:17
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's… Mm. Oh, beautiful.
• 50:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing your wisdom and, and your time with us.
• 50:25
  Tracy Cartwright: It's been really fascinating.
• 50:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Really fascinating.
• 50:27
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm
• 50:28
  Karin Dremel: elated-
• 50:29
  Tracy Cartwright: So if- … that were interesting … yeah, it would be, um… It's been a pleasure, a real pleasure to have you here, and I hope that the rest of your day goes as fantastically well.
• 50:39
  Tracy Cartwright: You're not in outer space.
• 50:40
  Tracy Cartwright: You can, um, go and enjoy your day,'cause it's only mid-morning for you.
• 50:45
  Tracy Cartwright: What
• 50:45
  Karin Dremel: people need to know about me and outer space, I'm a Taurus.
• 50:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Ah, right.
• 50:50
  Karin Dremel: Four hoofs on the ground.
• 50:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:53
  Karin Dremel: And I have four horns, because I'm at the cusp of Aries and Taurus.
• 50:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, wow.
• 50:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Very grounded- So- … hey?
• 51:01
  Karin Dremel: If n- if somebody needs to do space constellations, I refer.
• 51:06
  Tracy Cartwright: So if you're at the cusp of Aries and Taurus, you must be around the 20th?
• 51:11
  Karin Dremel: 21st.
• 51:12
  Tracy Cartwright: 21st.
• 51:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, congratulations.
• 51:15
  Tracy Cartwright: My son is the 19th and my granddaughter is the 20th.
• 51:19
  Karin Dremel: Oh.
• 51:20
  Karin Dremel: It's a time for you, family.
• 51:22
  Tracy Cartwright: So-
• 51:22
  Karin Dremel: It's a time of emergence
• 51:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, beautiful.
• 51:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much for being here.
• 51:28
  Karin Dremel: Thank you, Tracey.
• 51:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 51:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 51:36
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me @tracey.cartwright.
• 51:39
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracey with no E .cartwright.
• 51:42
  Tracy Cartwright: And, or head over to my website traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 51:52
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.