Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Did teen kill mom over a bad grade? PLUS: Thousand Oaks shooter's bizarre criticism of response to other US massacres

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Did teen kill mom over a bad grade? PLUS: Thousand Oaks shooter's bizarre criticism of response to other US massacres · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: This morning we were called out here Ali Conte in
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Speaker 1: reference to a fifteen year old had come home from school. Uh.
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Speaker 1: His front door was kicked in, her side door was
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Speaker 1: kicked in, the house was ransacked. His mother's car was
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Speaker 1: in the driveway and the engine was running, and hence
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Speaker 1: the investigation began. And as the investigation began, it became
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Speaker 1: quite apparent that this was not an act of random violence,
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Speaker 1: that in fact, a fifteen year old probably had killed
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Speaker 1: his mother sometime last night, and after some great detective work,
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Speaker 1: in great police work, we were able to charge or
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Speaker 1: actuallyssary in the process of charging her fifteen year old
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Speaker 1: son was strangling her to death sometime after midnight into
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Speaker 1: Friday morning. Uh. He then took the body to a
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Speaker 1: nearby church where he buried underneath of the fire pit.
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Speaker 1: Came back to the house, staged a burglary, got some
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Speaker 1: of his friends to get involved to get the electronics
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Speaker 1: and a gun that was stolen. I Nancy Grace, this
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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories, Thank you for being with us. Did
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Speaker 1: a schoolboy strangle his architect mom dad and then bury
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Speaker 1: her body under a church fire pit, begging his friends
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Speaker 1: to make it all look like a burglary. And it's
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Speaker 1: all over a bad grade at school. I can hardly
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Speaker 1: take it in. I'm gonna tell you, it's making me
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Speaker 1: rethink every time I picked the twins up at school
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Speaker 1: and go, hey, how'd you do on your social studies test? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: If you make an A? Is that too much stress?
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Speaker 1: What have I lost my mind? It's not her fault.
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Speaker 1: The kid made a d and she fussed at him,
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Speaker 1: and he murdered her. You know what, Let me get
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Speaker 1: the facts first to Nicole parton Crime online dot Com
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Speaker 1: investigative reporter who we were just hearing as the Volucia
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Speaker 1: County Sheriff Mike Chitwood describing the investigation to the death
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Speaker 1: of a lovely young mom, Gail cleveland Er. Nicole uh
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Speaker 1: intimately familiar with the facts. Start at the beginning, Nicole,
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Speaker 1: what happened from fifteen year old Gregory? He later says
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Speaker 1: he deserves the Grammy for that call. He says he
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Speaker 1: came home from school, his mother is missing. The home
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Speaker 1: has been ramsacked, their items that are missing, The front
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Speaker 1: door has kicked in, her car is running in the driveway,
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Speaker 1: and he says she's not there and he doesn't know
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Speaker 1: what's happened. I can hardly take it in uh. Nicole
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Speaker 1: parton Joining Me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole,
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Speaker 1: how did it all start? Tell me about what police
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Speaker 1: find when they get there? Nancy Sheriff Chitwood, calling this
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Speaker 1: one of the saddest, most disturbing cases of his career.
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Speaker 1: And you're right, it all starts over a bad grade.
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Speaker 1: Approximately eleven pm at night, Gale and her fifteen year
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Speaker 1: old son get into a discussion about this bad grade.
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Speaker 1: He storms off into his bedroom typical fifteen year old behavior,
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Speaker 1: I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he
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Speaker 1: comes out of the bedroom, goes into his mother's bedroom
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Speaker 1: where she's sleeping, wakes her up, and begins to strangle her.
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Speaker 1: Joining me is Nicole Parton Crime online dot Com investigative
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Speaker 1: reporter renew family lawyer out of North Carolina, Kathleen Murphy, Dr.
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Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and boy, do we need a shrink?
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Speaker 1: Also with me Penny Douglas for trial lawyer of the
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Speaker 1: Atlanta Jurisdiction and also joining me, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of
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Speaker 1: a new book, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Okay,
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Speaker 1: I want to figure out the scene. We we don't
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Speaker 1: know what happened to Joe Scott Morrigan explained to me
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Speaker 1: what we are looking at crime evidence wise? What are
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Speaker 1: the c s I looking for? Well, I think the
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Speaker 1: biggest the watchword here, Nancy is consistency. Uh what is
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Speaker 1: it that is being uh seen observable by the law
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Speaker 1: enforcement officers upon rival. We've got evidence that, according to
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Speaker 1: what is being said, that a door has been kicked in,
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Speaker 1: that the area throughout the house has been ransacked. That
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Speaker 1: gives us the initial impression at least, uh that there
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Speaker 1: may be a property crime go gone wrong. And one
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Speaker 1: of the more interesting things is that her vehicle was
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Speaker 1: found a van outside of the home and according to
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Speaker 1: this young man, the vehicle was found running. So this
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Speaker 1: all initially at least gives the police an idea that
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Speaker 1: maybe this is a break in gone bad. After speaking
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Speaker 1: to neighbors there in DeBerry, Florida, they say that yo Clevelander,
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Speaker 1: uh deeply religious, very well educated at an architect, Mom
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Speaker 1: and was extremely supportive of her son, extremely supportive of him.
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Speaker 1: And it's hard for me to take in that a
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Speaker 1: a child, he's still a miner, would kill his own mother. Uh.
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Speaker 1: To Dr Daniel bober forensic psychiatrists, patricide or killing him
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Speaker 1: a parent is very very rare, especially matricide killing of
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Speaker 1: the mother. Why is that so rare? Dr Bober Well, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: I mean it has to do with the attachment that
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Speaker 1: you know a child has with their mother. It's just
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Speaker 1: a very rare event. But remember something. You know, this
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Speaker 1: is a fifteen year old kid, and a lot of
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Speaker 1: times when fifteen year old to do things, they're very impulsive.
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Speaker 1: But the fact that he waited, there was a delay,
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Speaker 1: and then he strangled her, and then he staged the
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Speaker 1: scene to make it look like a burglary. I mean
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Speaker 1: that comes from a very different place. This was not
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Speaker 1: uh an impulsive act. This was very cold and it
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Speaker 1: was very calculated. Take a listen to Milusia County Sheriff
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Speaker 1: Mike Chitwood answering questions rage. Apparently there was a dispute
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Speaker 1: about March with his mother um and in her an argument.
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Speaker 1: OC heard it around eleven o'clock or so and a
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Speaker 1: run twelve thirty. He went into her room and woke
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Speaker 1: her up and began strangling, strangled until he killed. And
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Speaker 1: then he had to do something with the body. So
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Speaker 1: he he put the body in the back of his
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Speaker 1: mother's call, drove to Daytona and and Ally Hillarry where
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Speaker 1: he was going to dispose of the body, thought better
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Speaker 1: of it, came back home, got shovel, got everything he needed,
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Speaker 1: drove one five miles down the road to the church. Uh,
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Speaker 1: Doug depositive mother in it, covered it up. Maybe trime
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Speaker 1: scene look like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
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Speaker 1: went to school, left school early, which is where still
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Speaker 1: he began to fall apart, and then got home and
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Speaker 1: made his uh, in his own words, a Grammy winning
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Speaker 1: phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
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Speaker 1: not really occur to Penny Douglas Fur joining me Atlanta
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Speaker 1: defense lawyer, Penny Douglas Fur, if you have to handle
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Speaker 1: this case for the defense, what are you going to say?
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Speaker 1: He's just really a misunderstood boy. There obviously some psychological
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Speaker 1: issues there. I would first have him examined because kids
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Speaker 1: don't get bad grades because they want to get bad
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Speaker 1: grades and I don't know what the mother said to him,
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Speaker 1: but whatever it was, it pushed him over the edge.
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Speaker 1: We need to know what else happened, what led up
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Speaker 1: to this, Did he have bad grades before this, and
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Speaker 1: what were they doing to try and fix it. It
9:22
Speaker 1: sounds like his mother's well educated and if her child
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Speaker 1: is getting bad grades, she would get somebody to work
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Speaker 1: with him and somebody to help him. So I'm trying
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Speaker 1: to find out. I would first try to find out
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Speaker 1: where all of this came from and how long this
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Speaker 1: had been happening. Of course, Penny Douglas for the Consummate
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Speaker 1: defense attorney says, I'd like to find out what the
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Speaker 1: mom said that made him do this. You know what,
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Speaker 1: the more victim blaming, Kathleen, But I get a penny.
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Speaker 1: That's what you do for a living, not judging, not
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Speaker 1: not better, excuse me not judging to Kathleen Murphy, North
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Speaker 1: Carolina lawyer, you have a very different take on this kid.
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Speaker 1: I absolutely have a different take on this child. I
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Speaker 1: have a take on the status of this child's relationship
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Speaker 1: with both of his parents. I have an opinion that
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Speaker 1: this child was manipulating his mother throughout his life. The
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Speaker 1: father was away on a business trick. You got back tonight. Um,
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Speaker 1: so you know there's a lot of there's a lot
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Speaker 1: of heartache, and that finally you know, not only do
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Speaker 1: you have a son killers her mother, but you have
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Speaker 1: the father who was away and you know he comes back,
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Speaker 1: he lands. The next thing he knows the police. You
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Speaker 1: have taken him into the police district to talk about
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Speaker 1: your wife is missing. Oh my stars, can you imagine
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Speaker 1: you get back in town, your house is ransacked and
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Speaker 1: your wife, your your spouse is missing. We're talking about
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Speaker 1: out a lovely young mother, Gil Clevelander, an educated woman
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Speaker 1: who was very supportive of her son, Greg, aged fifteen.
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Speaker 1: Oh my stars, Oh my stars. And to get that news.
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Speaker 1: I'm easy, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us. Now, Penny Douglas for Atlanta veteran defense
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Speaker 1: attorney says, oh, well, clearly the boy, the little boy
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Speaker 1: has a psychological problem. And I wonder what the mom said,
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Speaker 1: what Gail Clevanger said to make him do this? All right,
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Speaker 1: I can't say I expected anything different, But Kathleen, not judging,
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Speaker 1: not judging, Penny joining right now, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer,
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Speaker 1: Let's just say She's not as sympathetic to Gregory absolutely
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Speaker 1: as Penny Douglas. Fur is Kathleen Murphy. What have you learned?
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Speaker 1: I've learned that this child was manipulating, in my opinion,
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Speaker 1: his mother all of his life because he has the
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Speaker 1: ability to man up to her. There was not a
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Speaker 1: father figure in this child's life. And this child has
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Speaker 1: a presence online that is also somewhat disturbing. So if
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Speaker 1: his mother is concerned about a D on his report
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Speaker 1: card and approaches him about it, she should really be concerned.
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Speaker 1: What is he doing on four Chan? What is he
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Speaker 1: doing with the alt right thought process? And that's not
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Speaker 1: even addressed, I believe. I'm looking at photos right now
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Speaker 1: of the two of them together, Greg fifteen and his mom,
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Speaker 1: Gail Cleminger, And here they are, Uh, she's apparently taking
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Speaker 1: karate with him. Is that what that is he's got?
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Speaker 1: They both have on there. It looks like karate or
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Speaker 1: maybe te condo. The patch on Greg's arms his teaching assistant.
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Speaker 1: I'm looking at all these photos of the mom and
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Speaker 1: the sun together. There's a shot of River City Church,
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Speaker 1: one and a half miles away from the home where
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Speaker 1: her body was found buried in a fire pit behind
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Speaker 1: it with her foot protruding. Very important. I'm looking at
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Speaker 1: the book. In photo of the sun Um Gail Clevelands
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Speaker 1: Ha tried to fight back as she was being strangled.
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Speaker 1: There's cracked scratch marks across the Sun's face, under his
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Speaker 1: right eye and around his nose in the mug shot.
13:33
Speaker 1: I'm looking at them all right now. Let me ask you,
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Speaker 1: Nicole Parton, what did the friends have to do with this?
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Speaker 1: Did he unless them to try to make it look
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Speaker 1: like a burglary? He did, two high school friends. He
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Speaker 1: calls them up after he killed her and says, look,
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Speaker 1: I need some help. They come over. They assist him
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Speaker 1: with getting rid of the body. They assist him with
13:56
Speaker 1: taking items out of the house to make it look
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Speaker 1: like a burglary. And it's kind of odd to note.
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Speaker 1: After they bury her, they stop at the circle k
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Speaker 1: and grab a soda, then head back to the house
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Speaker 1: to stage the crime scene together. Okay, well, Nicole Parton,
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Speaker 1: please say that one more time. What did you say
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Speaker 1: about the circle k? After they get rid of the body,
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Speaker 1: bury the body at the fire pit at the church,
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Speaker 1: the boys stop at circle K to grab a soda.
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Speaker 1: They have a soda I don't know, maybe a snack too.
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Speaker 1: They head back to the house and then stage the
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Speaker 1: crime scene. Okay, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, renowned forensic psychiatrists.
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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Penny Douglas for bleeding heart
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Speaker 1: defense lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Okay, it's she.
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Speaker 1: You know, she wins all of her cases number one.
14:45
Speaker 1: Now I know why she really believes it. Dctor Daniel Bober.
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Speaker 1: For just about thirty seconds, I was trying to focus
14:53
Speaker 1: on what Penny Douglas fur was saying. Now that I
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Speaker 1: know this guy, this kid stops at the circle k
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Speaker 1: and kicks back for a slurpie after he buries his
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Speaker 1: mother's body. He yeah, no, Uh, he is not insane.
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Speaker 1: He does not have psychological problem. He's just main and
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Speaker 1: enlist the help of two other sociopaths to help in
15:15
Speaker 1: stage the scene and make it look like a burglary. Uh.
15:19
Speaker 1: You know, he may have problems, but they're more of
15:21
Speaker 1: the personality variety. They're more of the antisocial variety. He's
15:26
Speaker 1: clearly a kid who has very little empathy and cannot
15:29
Speaker 1: have any remorse for other human beings. Are you saying
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Speaker 1: he's a sociopath or a psychopath And what's the difference, Well,
15:36
Speaker 1: they both they both. They both are variations in the
15:39
Speaker 1: same thing, which means that people have empty social traits.
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Speaker 1: They lie, they manipulate their conning. Uh, they don't have
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Speaker 1: empathy for others, and they sort of had this mock
15:49
Speaker 1: of valiant way of leading their lives where they do
15:52
Speaker 1: whatever they need to do and they don't care who
15:54
Speaker 1: they have to step on in the process. Now I'm
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Speaker 1: looking at the two co defendants, not not codefendants in
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Speaker 1: the actual murder of his mom, Gail Clevinger, but of
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Speaker 1: staging the scene and disposing of the body. Joseph S.
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Speaker 1: Gott Morgan. This is crazy. Your son is about this age,
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Speaker 1: and I'm looking at the two co defendants. They just
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Speaker 1: look like normal teen kids. You'd never imagine they could
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Speaker 1: do something like this. I'm looking at him Greg, the son,
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Speaker 1: the teen boy, and all the happy shots that the
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Speaker 1: mom is posted. There's the mom um, there's the boy's father,
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Speaker 1: there is the I guess it's a stepdad. I'm not sure.
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Speaker 1: She had just called the boy's father to tell him
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Speaker 1: their son had made a d D as in delta
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Speaker 1: at school. And according to police, he was in motivated
16:48
Speaker 1: by rage to kill his mother. Here he is Gregory
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Speaker 1: Ramos with the grandma, looking loving on the grandma. And
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Speaker 1: here is the mom, Gail and one of her professional sites.
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Speaker 1: Now interesting, Uh, she was absent from work the morning
17:07
Speaker 1: that she was down. I'm looking at their home, nice,
17:09
Speaker 1: big yard with trees all around it. The van, her
17:13
Speaker 1: van was left running outside. My question to you, um,
17:18
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, your son is this age. I bet all
17:20
Speaker 1: of his friends look like they would never dream of
17:22
Speaker 1: doing anything like this, just like these kids do. Yeah,
17:25
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, uh, you know who he would call
17:28
Speaker 1: up in the event that he needed this kind of
17:30
Speaker 1: help and who he would be aligning himself with that
17:33
Speaker 1: without argument, without any compunction whatsoever, that they would just
17:38
Speaker 1: you know, agree to go and yeah, yeah, sure, we'll
17:41
Speaker 1: we'll go. Barry mom, your mom with you, you know,
17:43
Speaker 1: the lady that's probably you know, I don't know, fixed
17:46
Speaker 1: some sandwiches, you know, had him over, Maybe they had
17:49
Speaker 1: sleepovers when they were younger, you know, all those sorts
17:52
Speaker 1: of things. How do you how do you how does
17:55
Speaker 1: this kid have these kinds of associates that would enter
17:58
Speaker 1: into this kind of Confederate received with him to do this.
18:02
Speaker 1: It absolutely blows my mind. And of course it's you know,
18:06
Speaker 1: as with all these kinds of things, Uh, the police
18:11
Speaker 1: via forensics as well as questioning these individuals are going
18:15
Speaker 1: to be able to figure this out. These people are
18:17
Speaker 1: not rocket scientists, you know. To Nicole parton Crime Online
18:21
Speaker 1: dot Com Investigative Reporter, where you can find this and
18:24
Speaker 1: all other crime and justice news. I'm looking at her postings,
18:28
Speaker 1: Gail Clevelander's postings. Here she is with her husband, Danny Clevelander.
18:33
Speaker 1: She's not a single mom. The bio dad is still
18:38
Speaker 1: out there in his lot in the boy's life, and
18:41
Speaker 1: the step dad here they are at the beach and
18:46
Speaker 1: they're hugging each other with the beach in the background,
18:49
Speaker 1: and she's put like the shiny stars, you know, super
18:54
Speaker 1: imposed them all around them like they're in love. I'm
18:57
Speaker 1: looking at their home. It's got a great yard, hard
19:00
Speaker 1: for him to play with. Here he is with his grandma.
19:03
Speaker 1: Here she is with the boy's dad and him at
19:09
Speaker 1: some event. My point is Nicole, everything she posed and
19:13
Speaker 1: everything we can find of them. They look so happy,
19:16
Speaker 1: they do, and even the neighbors they're saying they moved
19:18
Speaker 1: into that community about five years ago. The neighbors were
19:22
Speaker 1: saying they were very kind, they were sweet, they never
19:25
Speaker 1: heard arguments, nothing out of the way. The neighbors calling
19:29
Speaker 1: them a very loving family. Take a listen to be
19:31
Speaker 1: Lucia County Sheriff Mike Chipwood of what he tells us.
19:34
Speaker 1: There's a lot of crimes. She has a lot of
19:35
Speaker 1: different working on. There's autograph. I mean, a lot of
19:37
Speaker 1: great defective workers, a lot of great police work. And
19:39
Speaker 1: I think from the very beginning when the detectors got
19:41
Speaker 1: on the scene and look at the physical evidence and
19:43
Speaker 1: listen to the stories, even listen to nine one one
19:46
Speaker 1: call things just didding that up, Just just didding that up.
19:49
Speaker 1: People just don't walk in through a burglary, and you know,
19:54
Speaker 1: and the story did that up. The woman never made
19:55
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22:00
Speaker 1: Nancy rules and restrictions do apply. Chilling details as a
22:09
Speaker 1: teenage one is charged in the murder of his own mother,
22:12
Speaker 1: accused of weaving a twisted plot to cover it up.
22:15
Speaker 1: Police say it started Thursday night with a fight between
22:17
Speaker 1: the teen and his mother, forty six year old Gail Clevelander,
22:20
Speaker 1: over his grades, in particular at the that he received
22:24
Speaker 1: in a certain subject. A very loud and boisterous and
22:29
Speaker 1: contentious argument ensued his stepfather out of town when the
22:32
Speaker 1: boy allegedly waited until midnight to choke cleveland Er to death,
22:36
Speaker 1: later and listing the help of two friends to move
22:38
Speaker 1: her body into a van and bury it in a
22:40
Speaker 1: fire pit at a nearby church. You're hearing our friend
22:43
Speaker 1: Ariel rus Chief at ABC News reporting on this is
22:48
Speaker 1: it true? A teen boy strangled his mom, goes outside,
22:53
Speaker 1: comes back in to find she's not dead. They continued
22:56
Speaker 1: to choke her for the next thirty minutes. I Nancy
23:01
Speaker 1: Grace this his crime stories. Thank you for being with
23:04
Speaker 1: us Nicole parton Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Is
23:07
Speaker 1: that fact true that he goes outside, comes back in,
23:11
Speaker 1: see she's not dead, and continues to choke her another
23:15
Speaker 1: thirty minutes. If that's true, there's no way he can
23:18
Speaker 1: argue uh crime of passion, you know, boiling blood or
23:22
Speaker 1: anger he had. He did it for thirty minutes. That's correct, Nancy.
23:26
Speaker 1: His story is that he thought she was dead after
23:29
Speaker 1: strangling her for some time, he went outside to get
23:31
Speaker 1: the wheelbarrow. He comes back in to find that she's
23:34
Speaker 1: actually still alive, so he continues to strangle her again
23:37
Speaker 1: for some thirty minutes until he's certain that she's dead. Well,
23:41
Speaker 1: Penny Douglas Farr, there goes, You're a voluntary manslaughter plea
23:45
Speaker 1: right down the crapper. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But Nancy, think
23:49
Speaker 1: about it. If you're a parent and you find out
23:51
Speaker 1: that your child is associopath, what would you do? Most
23:57
Speaker 1: parents would be so trauma to us. If I found
23:59
Speaker 1: that out, I put him into treatment immediately to try
24:02
Speaker 1: to save his life. But I don't have any evidence
24:05
Speaker 1: that Gail knew her son had any issues, and I
24:08
Speaker 1: don't know that he's a sociopath to Kathleen Murphy, North
24:10
Speaker 1: Carolina lawyer before I start slinging around psychiatric words, especially
24:15
Speaker 1: while Dr Daniel Bober's listening to me do it and
24:17
Speaker 1: mangle his studies. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned about
24:21
Speaker 1: this kid? This child was fundamentally unmonitored his whole life
24:28
Speaker 1: and unchallenged. And if you look into his Facebook page,
24:33
Speaker 1: you'll see a Keck emblem behind his profile picture and
24:38
Speaker 1: looking up Kakistan, it was an imaginary world that was
24:43
Speaker 1: created on four Chan. Now, my fifteen year old was
24:46
Speaker 1: on four champ, and my fifteen year old wasn't a
24:50
Speaker 1: right type of environment where hate language is spute, I
24:54
Speaker 1: think I would know about it. So what I'm led
24:57
Speaker 1: to believe is that this child pretty much did what
24:59
Speaker 1: he wanted to do when he wanted to do it,
25:02
Speaker 1: and got indeed. So bottom line, what you're telling me is,
25:04
Speaker 1: in addition to Republicans and Democrats, there is a Kakistan
25:10
Speaker 1: with its very own flag. No, Kakistan is mostly a
25:14
Speaker 1: joke sort of. It grew on the internet on four
25:19
Speaker 1: chans political message board, and that is a real um.
25:24
Speaker 1: Let me just say haven for um internet trolls. It
25:33
Speaker 1: has the most taboo comments possible there and um it
25:40
Speaker 1: has morphed into a location online where fringe groups joined in,
25:50
Speaker 1: and it really came out a kick k E K
25:54
Speaker 1: really came out of the World of Warcraft's chat system.
25:57
Speaker 1: That's where it came from. And then it and have
26:00
Speaker 1: wormed its way into our vernacular online as a replacement
26:05
Speaker 1: for laugh out Loud l O L. Kick. So what
26:08
Speaker 1: do you know about kick, Kathleen Murphy, why it's so
26:12
Speaker 1: disturbing This boy was part of kick. I think the
26:14
Speaker 1: whole Kakastan movement has been, if you will, adopted by
26:18
Speaker 1: the alt right conservative movement, and in fact, the Southern
26:24
Speaker 1: Poverty Law Center has it on a hate watch UM monitoring.
26:29
Speaker 1: I guess you could say list. And it's concerning to
26:32
Speaker 1: me that this is what the fifteen year old was reading,
26:35
Speaker 1: looking at, examining, and identifying with yesterday with my twelve
26:39
Speaker 1: year olds on you made punk apples with all of
26:42
Speaker 1: his friends. And I think when a parent comes in
26:45
Speaker 1: to parenthood and they're doing it all by themselves for
26:48
Speaker 1: so many years, and she doesn't have the support of
26:50
Speaker 1: a male in the home with the sun, it's very difficult.
26:54
Speaker 1: It is very difficult. Doesn't her husband live with them?
26:57
Speaker 1: That is the stepfather, and I think they were recently
26:59
Speaker 1: married with a last few years. The father of this
27:02
Speaker 1: child is not in the picture. He lives in another state. Okay,
27:05
Speaker 1: I wanna go into this kick K E K with
27:09
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I'm learning that kick that
27:15
Speaker 1: Greg Ramos was involved with was actually an ancient Egyptian god, Okay,
27:22
Speaker 1: god with a little g and was often depicted with
27:25
Speaker 1: a head of a frog. I don't know that I
27:27
Speaker 1: want my son, you know, or my daughter embroiled an
27:31
Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian demigoggs. But it is mostly an innocent cartoon character,
27:37
Speaker 1: but it was then turn into a hate Symbolay, so
27:42
Speaker 1: tell me what you know about this and why it's
27:45
Speaker 1: so telling this boy was part of that. I don't
27:48
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about it specifically, but I
27:50
Speaker 1: can tell you what I do know, which is as
27:51
Speaker 1: a child psychiatrist, I see parents bringing their kids into
27:54
Speaker 1: my office all the time, and a lot of these
27:57
Speaker 1: kids will have online personas that their parents are not
28:00
Speaker 1: even aware of. So, you know, you can try to
28:02
Speaker 1: be a good parent. You can try to keep track
28:04
Speaker 1: of your kids but there is a whole another world
28:07
Speaker 1: in cyberspace that they're on. Is you really have to
28:09
Speaker 1: work hard. Even law enforcements sometimes can't even find online
28:13
Speaker 1: personas that people have, So as a parent, it's very
28:16
Speaker 1: challenging to really be on top of all the details
28:19
Speaker 1: to know what kids are doing when they go to school,
28:21
Speaker 1: and whose smartphones they're using, and whose computers they're on
28:24
Speaker 1: when they're not at your home. But I tell parents
28:26
Speaker 1: this all the time. It's very important to keep that
28:28
Speaker 1: computer in a common area and not when they're in
28:31
Speaker 1: their room with the door closed, because they're in another
28:34
Speaker 1: world and they shouldn't be there. Well, let me tell
28:36
Speaker 1: you this what John David, my beloved, my perfect little
28:39
Speaker 1: boy used as his handle angry three g I, a
28:44
Speaker 1: angry third writer said that's actually cute. I said to David,
28:49
Speaker 1: whre you so angry? And goes but angry Mom and angry,
28:52
Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you angry? He said, because
28:55
Speaker 1: some days we don't get the full thirty minutes on
28:57
Speaker 1: the playground. Mom, That's why he's angry. I cannot tell
29:02
Speaker 1: you how relieved I was to find out why he
29:05
Speaker 1: was angry. So I'm always sneaking up on them to
29:07
Speaker 1: find out what they're doing online. Every time I sneak
29:10
Speaker 1: up with my daughter, she's either looking at yet another
29:14
Speaker 1: cat video, which is disturbing in its own own right,
29:17
Speaker 1: but some kind of facial something you make at home
29:22
Speaker 1: to put on your face. She just turned eleven, okay,
29:27
Speaker 1: but in our culture, she's always like already like putting
29:30
Speaker 1: all these beauty lotions that she makes out of, all
29:32
Speaker 1: sorts of things out of the fridge onto her face.
29:35
Speaker 1: Let me just say, and she would kill me if
29:38
Speaker 1: if you know the instant tan lotion, so she read
29:42
Speaker 1: online you can mix cocoa powder with lotion. She makes
29:46
Speaker 1: it with a vino and rubbed it all over herself, okay,
29:50
Speaker 1: to get an instant tan. I told her how absolutely
29:52
Speaker 1: gorgeous she looked. Of course, Uh okay, I'm digressing. What
29:57
Speaker 1: I'm talking about is this kid going online on his
30:02
Speaker 1: Facebook all sorts of hate inspired motifs. What does it mean?
30:07
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I know this. Cops say he
30:11
Speaker 1: murdered his mother very calmly, very calculatedly. Listen. Rage rage.
30:18
Speaker 1: Apparently there was a dispute about March with his mother
30:21
Speaker 1: um and in her an argument occurred. It around eleven
30:26
Speaker 1: o'clock or so, and around twelve thirty he went into
30:28
Speaker 1: her room and woke her up and began trying to
30:31
Speaker 1: learn strangle the until he killed and then he had
30:33
Speaker 1: to do something with the body. So here he put
30:36
Speaker 1: the body in the back of his mother's car, drove
30:39
Speaker 1: to Daytona and and Holly Hillary, where he was going
30:42
Speaker 1: to dispose of the body, thought better of it, came
30:44
Speaker 1: back home that shovel, got everything he needed, drove one
30:48
Speaker 1: five miles down the road to the church. Uh doug
30:51
Speaker 1: ahol time depositive mother in it, covered it up maybe
30:55
Speaker 1: crime scene like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
30:58
Speaker 1: went to school, left school early when she's worth still
31:02
Speaker 1: he began to fall apart and then got home and
31:05
Speaker 1: made his uh in his own words, a Grammy winning
31:08
Speaker 1: phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
31:14
Speaker 1: not really occur. Neighbors tell me that deeply religious woman
31:17
Speaker 1: was extremely supportive of her fifteen year old son, Gregory Ramos,
31:20
Speaker 1: who is now accused of Stranglinger in their Alexans at home,
31:23
Speaker 1: and then listening to two of his friends, Dylan said
31:25
Speaker 1: Cleric and Brian Porters to help cover it go was
31:27
Speaker 1: a sweetheart. She was very very kind person. When Hecke
31:30
Speaker 1: tells me the family moved to this to Burry neighborhood
31:32
Speaker 1: five years ago, she says they all got along well
31:35
Speaker 1: with the family, and she would drive Ramos and her
31:37
Speaker 1: son to University High School. Ramos was also a member
31:40
Speaker 1: of the Orange City Please Explorers program. He was always
31:42
Speaker 1: polite to me, and they always thanked me and say,
31:45
Speaker 1: you know, thank you for the Ryan home. Neighbors tell
31:47
Speaker 1: me Clevelander was involved in martial arts and she also
31:49
Speaker 1: worked as an architect at a firm in Orlando. She
31:51
Speaker 1: started there just three weeks ago. A company tells me
31:54
Speaker 1: she was a hard worker and spoke highly of her
31:56
Speaker 1: son and step children. They tell me they are heartbroken
31:59
Speaker 1: by this loss. Cannot understand it either. You're hearing from
32:02
Speaker 1: our friends Greg Wurmer at w f TV TV Channel
32:05
Speaker 1: nine and speaking to Gil Clelinger's neighbors, and we learned
32:10
Speaker 1: that this boy, Greg Ramos, who now is charged in
32:13
Speaker 1: the murder of his mother, was a police explorer in
32:17
Speaker 1: the Explorer group. You know, Dr Daniel Bober. It sounds
32:20
Speaker 1: like this kid. If if Kathleen Murphy had not gone
32:24
Speaker 1: online and found his Facebook and all the implications of that.
32:29
Speaker 1: He seems like an outwardly great kid. And it says
32:33
Speaker 1: a lot to me that the mother was upset that
32:35
Speaker 1: he made a D, which means she cares. Well, you know,
32:38
Speaker 1: I don't really think this is about him getting a D.
32:40
Speaker 1: Obviously they were much deeper problems. But it just shows how,
32:43
Speaker 1: you know, people can sort of compartmentalize their lives and
32:46
Speaker 1: be living this completely other life and others aren't aware
32:48
Speaker 1: of it. Is it true, Nicole Partner? The sheriff says
32:51
Speaker 1: that the boy was quote proud of his work. What
32:54
Speaker 1: do you know, Nicole? That's right. As part of his confession,
32:57
Speaker 1: Gregory says he was very proud of his work, telling
33:00
Speaker 1: the sheriff that he thought he deserved a Grammy for
33:03
Speaker 1: his He also stated that when he made that I'm
33:07
Speaker 1: on one call, he used what he had learned in
33:10
Speaker 1: criminal justice classes to give quote the flavor of truth
33:16
Speaker 1: to his lies. Penny Douglas Firm, veteran defense attorney. What
33:22
Speaker 1: do you do with that? That he used what he
33:25
Speaker 1: learned in his criminal justice classes to quote give a
33:29
Speaker 1: flavor of truth to his lies. That's a typical thing
33:33
Speaker 1: of sociopaths. I hate to say that, but that's typical
33:36
Speaker 1: of what they do. They'll take a little bit of
33:38
Speaker 1: truth and twisted. And that's the sad thing I've litigated
33:43
Speaker 1: against sociopaths. It is a nightmare. And if you know,
33:46
Speaker 1: the child of sociopathy needs to be in treatment immediately.
33:50
Speaker 1: I don't know what signs of mother miss but this
33:53
Speaker 1: child should have been in treatment long ago. Oh, you're
33:55
Speaker 1: back on the mom. You're back on the mom. The
33:58
Speaker 1: signs the mother? Men? You know what Joe's goot Morgan,
34:01
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan, you're the forensics expert. Explain how this
34:05
Speaker 1: attack went down. I don't think the mom missed anything.
34:09
Speaker 1: This kid is super intelligent. Yeah, he's Uh, he's apparently
34:13
Speaker 1: waited until until the wee hours. Maybe she's gone to bed.
34:17
Speaker 1: Remember we heard that she had contacted the stepfather after
34:21
Speaker 1: she had confronted this kid. He's stewing over this thing,
34:24
Speaker 1: sitting around thinking about it. Wait until she goes to bed. Now.
34:27
Speaker 1: One of the articles that I read, Nancy stated that
34:30
Speaker 1: he not just strangled her, he throttled her. And if
34:33
Speaker 1: the listeners will essentially take their hands and put their
34:37
Speaker 1: thumbs together, uh, lame flat and formed kind of a
34:41
Speaker 1: you with your hands. That gives you an idea of
34:43
Speaker 1: what the formation of his hands would look like, the
34:46
Speaker 1: attitude that would be in as he wrapped him around
34:48
Speaker 1: this mother's neck and then began to squeeze. I find
34:52
Speaker 1: it interesting that they talked about how long this took,
34:55
Speaker 1: said it took up to thirty minutes. Uh. A lot
34:58
Speaker 1: of this is dependent upon hand pressure, how much hand
35:01
Speaker 1: pressure he can exert over her throat. There will be
35:04
Speaker 1: a struggle at the scene. You noted quite accurately a
35:08
Speaker 1: few months ago. He's gotten marks on his face when
35:11
Speaker 1: they exhumed her body out of this fire pit. Uh.
35:14
Speaker 1: They're going to do at the morgue. They will do
35:17
Speaker 1: nail scrapings on her and you'll be able to find
35:20
Speaker 1: probably his skin beneath her fingernails. Uh. And Uh, probably
35:25
Speaker 1: much of his DNA on her if it hasn't been
35:27
Speaker 1: completely disrupted. Very very troubling, very troubling. Yeah, we keep
35:31
Speaker 1: throwing around the term sociopath. Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists.
35:35
Speaker 1: Sociopath does not mean insanity. We do know police say
35:41
Speaker 1: he had no remorse, that he is super intelligent, and
35:45
Speaker 1: not only that that he was quote proud of his work.
35:49
Speaker 1: What does that mean? And what is a sociopath? That
35:52
Speaker 1: is correct, Nancy, sociopath does not equal the insanity defense.
35:55
Speaker 1: Sociopaths don't know the difference, do not necessarily know the
35:58
Speaker 1: difference between right and wrong. Even though that was a
36:00
Speaker 1: double negative. The point is is that you could be
36:02
Speaker 1: a sociopath. You can plan, you can organize, you can
36:05
Speaker 1: attempt to conceal um, you can lie, you can manipulate,
36:08
Speaker 1: And so just because you're a sociopath doesn't absolve you
36:11
Speaker 1: of responsibility. Uh. And in fact, it makes you quite
36:14
Speaker 1: adept at committing crime and trying to conceal it. Kathleen Murphy,
36:18
Speaker 1: North Carolina family lawyer, will he be charged as an adult?
36:23
Speaker 1: I believe he will be charged as an adult, as
36:25
Speaker 1: he rightly should be charged as an adult. This is
36:27
Speaker 1: an intentional throttle, as Joe said, murder of his mother
36:33
Speaker 1: planned with four thoughts. Well, we also know, uh to
36:36
Speaker 1: Joe's got Morgan, speaking of forensics, that the mom was
36:40
Speaker 1: first attack in her own bed after midnight, so clearly
36:44
Speaker 1: he waited for her to be asleep. This teen boy
36:48
Speaker 1: spent over half an hour throttling his mom dad with
36:52
Speaker 1: his bare hands as she fought for her life. This
36:56
Speaker 1: was all over a d as in delta gray and
37:01
Speaker 1: and unfolded in court where this boy was denied bail
37:06
Speaker 1: and remains in custody. There are the seven Deadly's the
37:10
Speaker 1: d f as designated felonies for which a minor will
37:15
Speaker 1: be quote bound over to adult felony court. Murder is
37:20
Speaker 1: one of them, along with rape, aggravated sodomy, armed robbery, arson.
37:27
Speaker 1: Let's see what are the other two. Any lawyer on
37:31
Speaker 1: the panel can tell me the other two. But long
37:33
Speaker 1: story short, Penny, Douglas fur he's gonna be bound over.
37:36
Speaker 1: He will be tried as an adult. I can guarantee
37:38
Speaker 1: you that, Nancy. The only thing that fifteen Big fifteen
37:42
Speaker 1: will help him with is he will not get the
37:45
Speaker 1: death penalty, which he could get in Florida for this
37:48
Speaker 1: type of crime. But I do not think they'll give
37:50
Speaker 1: the death penalty to a fifteen year old. Well, they
37:52
Speaker 1: can't under the Supreme Court ruling about four or five
37:55
Speaker 1: years ago, no one under the age of eighteen in
37:58
Speaker 1: our country can be a sentence to death penalty. But
38:01
Speaker 1: explain the bind over process, Penny. How will it be
38:03
Speaker 1: determined if he will be treated as an adult. Well,
38:06
Speaker 1: as you just said, it's one of the seven deadly sins,
38:09
Speaker 1: so that will definitely send him over. And it's murder.
38:12
Speaker 1: And not only is it murder, but he went back
38:14
Speaker 1: and found her alive and then killed her again, so
38:18
Speaker 1: he thought about it and went back and did it again.
38:21
Speaker 1: So absolutely he's dangerous. He will be moved over to
38:25
Speaker 1: adult court to be tried as an adult for murder,
38:28
Speaker 1: and he will most likely get life in prison. I
38:31
Speaker 1: thought of the seven deadlies. They are agassault, arson, aggravated battery,
38:36
Speaker 1: which means you lose a limb or a body part
38:39
Speaker 1: or your eye, your arm during an agg assault, robbery,
38:44
Speaker 1: armed robbery, um, kidnap, murder, Do I do I get seven? Jackie? Okay?
38:52
Speaker 1: I got all seven. Those are the typical designated felonies
38:55
Speaker 1: for which a child or eighteen will be bound, owned
39:00
Speaker 1: over and treated as an adult. Police in this case
39:03
Speaker 1: say that Gregory Logan Ramos is one of the top
39:07
Speaker 1: three sociopaths they have ever encountered. They are assuming the
39:14
Speaker 1: worst for my son. So they went in there, they
39:17
Speaker 1: all got out, but he didn't come out, so they
39:20
Speaker 1: say that he was where they left he went to
39:23
Speaker 1: the bar to get the drinks for everybody, and that's
39:27
Speaker 1: when they heard the shocks ringing out and oh, panic,
39:31
Speaker 1: have you gone to the hospital. We did call the hospital.
39:34
Speaker 1: They don't. They're going through their crazy triage right now,
39:37
Speaker 1: so they don't have any names or anybody that they
39:42
Speaker 1: They don't want to talk yet. So I haven't been
39:44
Speaker 1: over there, asked my next step is to go there yet?
39:46
Speaker 1: What did they tell you here? They just take your
39:50
Speaker 1: information and tell you to wait. How is that a
39:53
Speaker 1: A dad? Like I said, I'm pretty emotional. Tell me
39:58
Speaker 1: about Cogan rooms I do pretty's personality awesome. Um, we're
40:03
Speaker 1: very Christian raised family and everything. That's he's a very
40:07
Speaker 1: good kid. You know, he's very good in school. He's
40:09
Speaker 1: very sports oriented. Uh was going into the army. So
40:13
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to wait and see at the ending
40:16
Speaker 1: of the situation. You're answer that, please answer, that's okay.
40:20
Speaker 1: I'm like, if you get word I want. If he's
40:24
Speaker 1: going to the arm You talked about these most shootings
40:27
Speaker 1: that you've been seeing. We've ever talked a lot about things. Yeah,
40:30
Speaker 1: that's why I'm very Uh, I'm curious right now. And
40:36
Speaker 1: you know, raising him the way, we raised some white
40:38
Speaker 1: house and if you picked up a cell phone, anybody's
40:40
Speaker 1: cell phone, and he was called home. So I don't
40:44
Speaker 1: understand where where we're at this point. I'm actually I'm very,
40:51
Speaker 1: very in shock. At this hour, we now know the
40:55
Speaker 1: list of victims that were massacred in the Borderline shooting.
41:00
Speaker 1: You were just hearing Jason Kaufman, who we heard those
41:05
Speaker 1: heart broken words yesterday. He was desperately searching for his son, Cody,
41:09
Speaker 1: who had been inside the Borderline bar. Now we know
41:14
Speaker 1: that Cody is one of the casualties. From Coeds to
41:19
Speaker 1: law enforcement to military, twelve gunned down. As we look
41:26
Speaker 1: for answers today to Alan Duke joining me from l A,
41:30
Speaker 1: what do we know about the shooter? We have his
41:34
Speaker 1: last Facebook post and it is like none other than
41:38
Speaker 1: any we've ever seen from someone who commits a massacre.
41:44
Speaker 1: And what did he mean by this? I think it's
41:47
Speaker 1: going to take a psychologist to tell us. He says, quote,
41:50
Speaker 1: I hope people call me insane, and then he posted
41:53
Speaker 1: laughing emojis. Wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah,
41:57
Speaker 1: I'm insane. But the only thing you p people do
42:00
Speaker 1: after the shootings is quote hopes and prayers or quote
42:04
Speaker 1: keep your keep you in my thoughts every time and
42:07
Speaker 1: wonder why these keep happening. That's what Ian David Long
42:13
Speaker 1: wrote just before killing twelve people. You know what that
42:17
Speaker 1: that It just turns my stomach over to hear the
42:20
Speaker 1: shooters last fakes book post. We now know who was
42:25
Speaker 1: massacred in the Borderline bar shooting. First of all, Cody Kaufman.
42:30
Speaker 1: You were just hearing his father, Jason, wondering was he alive?
42:34
Speaker 1: Was he dead? His friends came out, but they couldn't
42:38
Speaker 1: find Cody. The distraught dad rushed to the bar after
42:40
Speaker 1: hearing these of the shooting, and calls to his son's
42:43
Speaker 1: cell phone were not answered. Jason had been using a
42:46
Speaker 1: tracking app on his son's phone, and it indicated the
42:50
Speaker 1: cell phone was still on. Of course. Sergeant Ron Helis,
42:55
Speaker 1: Venturi County Sheriff, Sergeant Ron Heelis leaves behind a son
42:59
Speaker 1: and I'm wife. He was one of the first on
43:01
Speaker 1: the scene at the shooting. He raced in to save others.
43:06
Speaker 1: The last thing he said to his wife, Hannah, I
43:08
Speaker 1: gotta go. I love you, I gotta go on a call.
43:11
Speaker 1: Elena Houseley, the niece of actress Tamara Moray Houseley and
43:15
Speaker 1: her husband Adam also died. Her sweet mate at Pepperdine
43:20
Speaker 1: earlier posted photos on Twitter saying that she was missing.
43:24
Speaker 1: Her Apple watch and phone appeared still show her location
43:27
Speaker 1: as in the bar. She was there with friends. All
43:30
Speaker 1: of them were accounted for. Justin meek Idd is one
43:35
Speaker 1: of the victims by his family. He was a twenty
43:38
Speaker 1: three year old recent grad of California Lutheran University, and
43:42
Speaker 1: he worked there and organized the college night. He is
43:45
Speaker 1: believed to have heroically saved lives as the shooting unfolded,
43:50
Speaker 1: according to the university president Chris Kimball. Sean Adler, forty eight,
43:56
Speaker 1: was a bouncer at Borderline Bar and Grill. He was
43:59
Speaker 1: a wrestling coach who had just opened a coffee shop
44:02
Speaker 1: his dream in the local area. Noel Sparks, a twenty
44:06
Speaker 1: one year old student at Moore Park, was also confirmed
44:10
Speaker 1: dead this United Methodist Church in Westlake Village. She was
44:15
Speaker 1: a member of their posting condolences friends breaking down in
44:19
Speaker 1: tears as they desperately searched for her after the shooting.
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Speaker 1: Blake Dingman, just twenty one, identified by his girlfriend as
44:28
Speaker 1: a victim. My sweet Blake, my heart is hurting more
44:31
Speaker 1: than words can say, she writes. Telemachus or Fanos, Borderline employee,
44:38
Speaker 1: confirmed dead. An Eagle scout who served in the Navy.
44:43
Speaker 1: He survived Route ninety one Harvest festival shooting in Las
44:46
Speaker 1: Vegas where fifty eight died, and now he's dead. Christina
44:51
Speaker 1: Kelley Morris set was a cashier at Borderline. She died
44:56
Speaker 1: in the shooting. She went to Simi Valley High School
44:58
Speaker 1: and she's absolute beautiful with a big smile and cowboy
45:02
Speaker 1: boots just like mine. Danielle Manrique thirty three and Marine
45:07
Speaker 1: Vett spent his whole life helping veterans, readjust his civilian life,
45:12
Speaker 1: and just got a position with Team r WB. We're
45:16
Speaker 1: looking at so many of the victims and so many
45:19
Speaker 1: hearts are broken. To Alan Deep joining us from l
45:24
Speaker 1: A Alan, It's almost incomprehensible that some of these victims
45:29
Speaker 1: had survived the shooting at the Mandalais. That is one
45:32
Speaker 1: of the I'm not even gonna say irony. That doesn't
45:35
Speaker 1: do it justice. These were country music fans and they
45:38
Speaker 1: were there at the Root ninety one festival, which in
45:42
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, where so many people were injured and killed
45:45
Speaker 1: and for them to be in this shooting, what kind
45:48
Speaker 1: of odds are that? Well, unfortunately, the odds apparently are
45:51
Speaker 1: pretty good that you're going to be involved in some
45:53
Speaker 1: kind of a shooting. It's crazy, joining me, Wendy Patcheck,
45:57
Speaker 1: California Prosecutor. When you look at this guy's last post,
46:00
Speaker 1: it's almost as if he knew what was going to
46:02
Speaker 1: unfold after you know, Nancy, it is, and it's almost
46:06
Speaker 1: as if, and I find this this very interesting, he
46:09
Speaker 1: set himself up for a mental defense that he never
46:11
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to avail himself of because apparently he
46:14
Speaker 1: committed suicide. It's almost as if he was using his
46:17
Speaker 1: scenario as a warning to others that unless you give
46:21
Speaker 1: mental health victims the treatment they need, if they can
46:24
Speaker 1: overcome the stigma and admit they have a problem, we're
46:27
Speaker 1: going to see even more of these. But the sinister
46:29
Speaker 1: nature of it, Nancy, that is just chilling, and would
46:33
Speaker 1: have been in front of a jury were this man
46:35
Speaker 1: to have survived, Well, he may have mocked it, and
46:38
Speaker 1: he may have made light of it, but nothing is
46:42
Speaker 1: stronger than the power of prayer, and that is what
46:45
Speaker 1: we are doing today for the victims and their families.
46:48
Speaker 1: Twelve dead at the Borderline bar. Nancy Grace Crime Stories
46:53
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye