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“Obama’s Advice For Democrats.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
0:22
Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Visor.
0:23
Speaker 4: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:24
Speaker 1: And here's our interview with President Barack Obama. Well, welcome
0:28
Speaker 1: back to Pod Save America. Thanks for doing this.
0:30
Speaker 2: It is great to be with you guys. Good to
0:32
Speaker 2: see you. All right.
0:33
Speaker 4: We're going to start with the midterms.
0:34
Speaker 2: Of course.
0:34
Speaker 4: We're getting serious here.
0:35
Speaker 2: Yes.
0:36
Speaker 4: So these midterms, like 2010, are happening in what would
0:39
Speaker 4: say a suboptimal economic environment. But sort of unlike 2010,
0:45
Speaker 4: Democrats have a handful of pretty powerful arguments that seem
0:48
Speaker 4: to be moving voters about who Republicans are. On one hand,
0:51
Speaker 4: you've got a bunch of big lie-believing insurrectionists. So that's
0:55
Speaker 4: one argument.
0:55
Speaker 1: Right.
0:55
Speaker 4: Another argument is about extremism on abortion, gay marriage, contraception,
0:59
Speaker 4: et cetera. And then also Republicans who want to get
1:02
Speaker 4: back to Congress to cut taxes for the wealthy, pay
1:05
Speaker 4: for it by cutting Social Security and Medicare. You're about
1:07
Speaker 4: to get out on a campaign trail. Do you think
1:09
Speaker 4: there's a way to sort of weave those things into
1:11
Speaker 4: one narrative about the stakes in this election?
1:15
Speaker 2: Well, look, I think the first and most important issue is,
1:22
Speaker 2: are we going to preserve the and hopefully strengthen our democracy.
1:28
Speaker 2: That's sort of a baseline question. And I believe that
1:37
Speaker 2: given how at least Republican officials have behaved, they increasingly
1:45
Speaker 2: are willing to subvert basic democratic procedures, right? Like let's
1:51
Speaker 2: count votes. Let's make sure that people are allowed to vote.
1:55
Speaker 2: Let's make sure that whoever gets the most votes has
2:01
Speaker 2: the most seats, and that if they get the most
2:06
Speaker 2: votes in Congress, that you can pass laws. Basic stuff
2:10
Speaker 2: like that they don't increasingly seem to believe in. And
2:15
Speaker 2: so that's the sense of urgency that I have. Now,
2:18
Speaker 2: I think for the average voter out there, we can
2:22
Speaker 2: talk about specific issues that are important to them, This
2:26
Speaker 2: has been a long-term battle that we've been having between
2:29
Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans, and that is, do we create the
2:32
Speaker 2: kind of economy that gives everybody a fair shot and
2:37
Speaker 2: that grows the economy in a way that is good
2:42
Speaker 2: for not just a few, but the many? And the
2:46
Speaker 2: great thing that I think we have going for us
2:48
Speaker 2: is that even with really slim majorities, what we've shown
2:51
Speaker 2: is is that we can deliver. the Biden administration has
2:57
Speaker 2: accomplished a lot. You've got a historic infrastructure bill that's
3:02
Speaker 2: going to help rebuild America and create jobs all across
3:07
Speaker 2: the country. You've got an Inflation Control Act that has
3:14
Speaker 2: lowered prescription drug prices, has made sure that healthcare is
3:19
Speaker 2: even more affordable through the ACA, that is looking at
3:22
Speaker 2: lowering energy costs. You've got a gun bill that is
3:29
Speaker 2: the first major piece of gun safety legislation that we've
3:33
Speaker 2: seen in 30 years. You know, across the board, what
3:39
Speaker 2: we've seen is that when Democrats have a working majority
3:43
Speaker 2: or even a really slim majority in Congress, they can
3:47
Speaker 2: make people's lives better. And so I, you know, if
3:52
Speaker 2: you combine the, the deep concerns about our democracy with
3:59
Speaker 2: the concrete accomplishments that this administration have been able to
4:04
Speaker 2: deliver because we had a narrow majority in both the
4:09
Speaker 2: House and the Senate, that should be enough to inspire
4:14
Speaker 2: people to get out. Now, there's one last piece of
4:17
Speaker 2: business that I think has been on a lot of
4:19
Speaker 2: people's minds, and that's Dobbs, right? The overturning of Roe
4:22
Speaker 2: versus Wade. Because what that also... indicates is that a
4:27
Speaker 2: lot of rights that we've taken for granted, one through
4:33
Speaker 2: enormous struggle and mobilization over the last 40, 50 years,
4:41
Speaker 2: those aren't rights that we can take for granted. If
4:46
Speaker 2: Roe versus Wade can be overturned, then it's likely that
4:52
Speaker 2: a significant part of this Supreme Court is less concerned
4:56
Speaker 2: about issues of privacy and personal freedom generally, which means
5:02
Speaker 2: that LGBTQ rights can be at risk. It means that
5:09
Speaker 2: basic precepts about the state staying out of how we
5:15
Speaker 2: think about family and relationships, that those are all called
5:18
Speaker 2: to question. And it's been interesting talking to, I think,
5:22
Speaker 2: a lot of young people who even though they thought,
5:29
Speaker 2: even though they were frustrated with the lack of progress
5:33
Speaker 2: in some areas, they had never gone through the experience
5:36
Speaker 2: of seeing us go backwards on a big issue. And
5:40
Speaker 2: it's a reminder that democracy is fragile, that you have
5:42
Speaker 2: to tend to it, you have to fight for it.
5:44
Speaker 2: And this midterm election, I think, is going to be
5:47
Speaker 2: a moment in which, you know, that battle has to
5:51
Speaker 2: be joined. And that means people have to turn up.
5:54
Speaker 1: So Donald Trump has made himself a central character in
5:57
Speaker 1: these midterms.
5:58
Speaker 2: He has.
5:58
Speaker 1: He has. He's made it pretty clear he wants to
6:01
Speaker 1: run again. Even if he doesn't, he's clearly remade the
6:04
Speaker 1: Republican Party in his image. What lessons have you learned
6:09
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years about how we can
6:11
Speaker 1: defeat not only Trump, but Trumpism long-term?
6:16
Speaker 2: Well, the thing that I think sometimes we seem to
6:21
Speaker 2: make mistake on is his behavior can be so outrageous.
6:27
Speaker 2: And now folks who try to copy him and his
6:33
Speaker 2: outrageous behaviors get a lot of attention. And so we
6:39
Speaker 2: join that game and we spend enormous amounts of time
6:45
Speaker 2: and energy and resources pointing out the latest crazy thing
6:49
Speaker 2: he said, or, you know, the, how rude or mean
6:56
Speaker 2: some of these Republican candidates behaved. That's probably not something
7:00
Speaker 2: that in the minds of most voters overrides their basic interests.
7:08
Speaker 2: Can I pay the rent? What are gas prices? How
7:11
Speaker 2: am I dealing with childcare, et cetera, right? And I
7:14
Speaker 2: think we saw in 2016, understandably, because we hadn't seen
7:18
Speaker 2: some of that behavior before, we thought, well, you know,
7:22
Speaker 2: If we point that out, that'll be it. If we
7:23
Speaker 2: point that out, that's going to be enough. And I
7:26
Speaker 2: think that what we all should have learned over the
7:28
Speaker 2: last several years is that it is an advantage for
7:37
Speaker 2: our candidates to be decent and thoughtful and well-informed and
7:46
Speaker 2: all those things. And I think we've done a great
7:51
Speaker 2: job recruiting tremendous candidates for Senate governor's races on down
7:58
Speaker 2: the ballot. So that helps, right? And that should give
8:02
Speaker 2: us an advantage. But we shouldn't assume that in any
8:06
Speaker 2: given election, it's a character test alone. We are going
8:10
Speaker 2: to have to engage in the issues and make very
8:13
Speaker 2: concrete arguments to people that, look, if you have a
8:18
Speaker 2: Democratic majority, then you're more likely make sure that you're
8:26
Speaker 2: getting paid a living wage and that you have basic
8:30
Speaker 2: protections on the job and that if you're still going
8:34
Speaker 2: to school, that it's going to be affordable. And if
8:40
Speaker 2: you get a job that doesn't give you health care
8:42
Speaker 2: on the job, that you're going to be able to
8:44
Speaker 2: afford to get health care through the Affordable Care Act
8:50
Speaker 2: and the subsidies are going to be ones that allow
8:53
Speaker 2: you to keep some money in your pocket. Those are
8:56
Speaker 2: the kinds of arguments I think that ultimately we still
8:59
Speaker 2: have to make, even when just by how we act
9:05
Speaker 2: and how we behave, we're also modeling a better way
9:11
Speaker 2: of doing politics.
9:13
Speaker 1: So one challenge that the Democratic Party has had since
9:16
Speaker 1: you left office is we keep doing worse with voters
9:20
Speaker 1: who don't have a college degree.
9:21
Speaker 2: Right.
9:22
Speaker 1: And at first it was white voters. And the theory
9:25
Speaker 1: behind that was perhaps racial resentment was driving that. Now
9:29
Speaker 1: we're seeing Latino voters without college degrees leaving the party
9:33
Speaker 1: or voting Republican and even some black voters as well.
9:36
Speaker 1: New York Times just ran a story about the 250
9:40
Speaker 1: page unpublished manuscript that you wrote in law school.
9:43
Speaker 2: Yes, this was very random. That's amazing. I didn't know that.
9:51
Speaker 2: One thing you guys know about me, I've been pretty consistent.
9:53
Speaker 1: You know, I, uh, that's what, that's what I took
9:56
Speaker 1: away from reading it and reading the story about it
9:58
Speaker 1: is you basically argue that Democrats need to make appeals
10:02
Speaker 1: that are based more on class than race if you
10:05
Speaker 1: want to build a durable majority. How do you think
10:07
Speaker 1: about that in light of the party's current predicament today?
10:11
Speaker 2: Look, I mean, I have.
10:18
Speaker 2: Watched with great pride this country become more aware of
10:28
Speaker 2: the force of racism and sexism and homophobia in everyday life.
10:35
Speaker 2: And I think that movements like Me Too and Black
10:40
Speaker 2: Lives Matter have changed the culture in all kinds of
10:46
Speaker 2: positive and powerful ways. Speaking as somebody who's got two
10:54
Speaker 2: black daughters, I want them to feel as if as
10:59
Speaker 2: they move through the world that they're not having to
11:02
Speaker 2: put up with a bunch of nonsense that if I
11:05
Speaker 2: had a white son, which biologically might be difficult, that
11:13
Speaker 2: they'd be treated fairly. But I also think that when
11:20
Speaker 2: we're talking about putting together, as you said, durable majorities,
11:26
Speaker 2: we have to be able to speak to everybody about
11:30
Speaker 2: their common interests. And what works for, I think, everybody
11:35
Speaker 2: is the idea of a basic equal treatment and fairness.
11:41
Speaker 2: That's an argument that's compatible with progress on social issues,
11:47
Speaker 2: and is compatible with economic issues. I think where we
11:50
Speaker 2: get into trouble sometimes is when we try to suggest
11:55
Speaker 2: that some groups are more, because they historically have been
12:05
Speaker 2: victimized more, that somehow they have a status that's different
12:13
Speaker 2: than other people. and that we're going around scolding folks
12:17
Speaker 2: if they don't use exactly the right phrase, or that
12:22
Speaker 2: identity politics becomes the principal lens through which we view
12:30
Speaker 2: our various political challenges. And to me, I think that
12:39
Speaker 2: that for a lot of average folks, ends up feeling
12:47
Speaker 2: as if you're not speaking to me and my concerns,
12:50
Speaker 2: or for that matter, my kids' concerns and their future.
12:54
Speaker 2: It feels as if I'm being excluded from that conversation
12:57
Speaker 2: rather than brought into the conversation. And so that's something
13:02
Speaker 2: that we all have to be mindful of and cautious about.
13:07
Speaker 2: But I want to emphasize here, Throughout my presidency, there
13:13
Speaker 2: was never a time in which we shied away from
13:16
Speaker 2: making strong arguments on behalf of groups that had been
13:20
Speaker 2: historically subjugated in this country, and we didn't ignore history.
13:26
Speaker 2: But there was always an invitation to people to say,
13:30
Speaker 2: you know what? I think all of us, regardless of
13:33
Speaker 2: what your status is, want fairness and want equality and
13:38
Speaker 2: want your sons or daughters to be treated fairly and
13:44
Speaker 2: with respect and dignity. And the more we're leaning into
13:47
Speaker 2: those arguments and the less we're leaning into an argument
13:51
Speaker 2: that says we're deserving of consideration and you guys are
14:04
Speaker 2: the problem, however you want to frame you guys, Yeah,
14:09
Speaker 2: I think most people don't want to be lectured to
14:13
Speaker 2: in that way. And I think that that can cause
14:16
Speaker 2: us some difficulties.
14:18
Speaker 5: So one thing that's also happened is we've seen Republicans
14:20
Speaker 5: try to take advantage of this, kind of damage the
14:23
Speaker 5: Democratic brand in some way. And in the last few elections,
14:26
Speaker 5: we've seen that Democratic policies like Medicaid expansion, raising the
14:30
Speaker 5: minimum wage, those things have like a 15-point advantage over
14:33
Speaker 5: Democratic politicians who would want to pass them. what do
14:37
Speaker 5: you see as the, I mean, you just talked a
14:38
Speaker 5: little bit about it, but like, how do we close
14:40
Speaker 5: that gap, right? How do we get people to listen?
14:43
Speaker 5: They seem to be more able to listen and get
14:44
Speaker 5: past polarization and misinformation when it's on the policies, not
14:47
Speaker 5: the politician.
14:48
Speaker 2: Well, I think it is connected to what we just
14:50
Speaker 2: talked about. And listen, I think it's important for us
14:54
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that what Republicans and conservative media have done
15:00
Speaker 2: very cleverly is to find whatever the most outrageous examples
15:06
Speaker 2: of overwrought cancel culture is. And they'll flash it on
15:11
Speaker 2: the screen as if this is the Democratic Party platform.
15:17
Speaker 2: And because they understand this dynamic that we just talked about.
15:22
Speaker 2: The message they sell day in, day out is these
15:26
Speaker 2: effete coastal liberals are looking down on you and think
15:32
Speaker 2: you're stupid. And, and so as a consequence, whatever they say,
15:38
Speaker 2: they don't mean it because they, all they care about is,
15:41
Speaker 2: is keeping you down and lifting themselves up. And so
15:48
Speaker 2: in light of the fact that that is constantly in the, the,
15:55
Speaker 2: the air, uh, that Republicans breathe and voters oftentimes are
16:00
Speaker 2: exposed to, um, you know, we got to bend over
16:03
Speaker 2: backwards sometimes to counteract that in order to get people
16:07
Speaker 2: to hear about policy. I mean, I think there's a
16:09
Speaker 2: reason why a guy like Fetterman in Pennsylvania has done
16:16
Speaker 2: well among voters that some other Democrats might not have
16:21
Speaker 2: done well with, because he comes off as a regular guy, right?
16:25
Speaker 2: And every once in a while, he says something that
16:28
Speaker 2: it's a little... you know, off script, if he was
16:31
Speaker 2: given a speech, you know, on a college campus, people
16:34
Speaker 2: might be, you know, aghast. And that's a good thing.
16:38
Speaker 2: That's a healthy thing, right? And, you know, I'm not
16:43
Speaker 2: suggesting that, you know, every candidate has to be themselves. And,
16:47
Speaker 2: you know, nothing's worse, as we've all seen in the
16:50
Speaker 2: past of, you know, folks trying to, you know, be
16:56
Speaker 2: down with the people and, you know, I think it rules.
16:59
Speaker 2: I love it. I love it when they try. It's
17:02
Speaker 2: a little awkward and stiff. Um, but all of you
17:06
Speaker 2: guys were also, you know, with us when, when we
17:09
Speaker 2: were on campaigns and, and, and, you know, I was in,
17:13
Speaker 2: in places that a lot of folks thought I could
17:16
Speaker 2: not get votes because of my biography. But I think
17:21
Speaker 2: what people sensed was, Oh, This guy relates to us, right?
17:27
Speaker 2: He gets us. And that quality is something that I
17:35
Speaker 2: think Democrats have to embrace and claim. And I think
17:47
Speaker 2: we do get into trouble. Look, I used to get
17:49
Speaker 2: into trouble whenever, as you know, You guys know well,
17:54
Speaker 2: whenever I got a little too professorial and started when
17:58
Speaker 2: I was behind a podium as opposed to when I
17:59
Speaker 2: was in a crowd, there were times where I'd sound
18:04
Speaker 2: like I was giving a bunch of policy gobbledygook. And
18:09
Speaker 2: that's not how people think about these issues. They think
18:12
Speaker 2: about them in terms of the life I'm leading day
18:17
Speaker 2: to day. How does politics even, how is it even relevant?
18:24
Speaker 2: the things that I care most deeply about. My family,
18:28
Speaker 2: my kids, work that gives me satisfaction, having fun, not
18:37
Speaker 2: being a buzzkill. That's a lesson for the Democratic Party.
18:41
Speaker 2: Sometimes Democrats are. Sometimes people just want to not feel
18:53
Speaker 2: as if they are walking on eggshells. And they want
19:00
Speaker 2: some acknowledgement that life is messy and that all of
19:03
Speaker 2: us at any given moment can say things the wrong way,
19:11
Speaker 2: make mistakes. Michelle talks about her mother-in-law, or her mother,
19:17
Speaker 2: my mother-in-law, who is an extraordinary woman. But as Michelle
19:23
Speaker 2: points out, she's 86. And sometimes trying to get the
19:28
Speaker 2: right phraseology when we're talking about issues, Michelle's like, that's
19:32
Speaker 2: like her trying to learn Spanish. It doesn't mean she
19:35
Speaker 2: shouldn't try to learn Spanish, but it means that sometimes
19:38
Speaker 2: she's not going to get the words right. And that's okay.
19:41
Speaker 2: And that attitude, I think, of just being a little
19:47
Speaker 2: more real and a little more grounded is something that...
19:50
Speaker 2: I think goes a long way in counteracting what is
19:53
Speaker 2: a systematic, the systematic propaganda that I think is being
20:01
Speaker 2: pumped out by Fox News and all these other outlets
20:03
Speaker 2: all the time.
20:13
Speaker 5: I don't know that you know this, but we used
20:14
Speaker 5: to joke that you would always insist on saying that
20:17
Speaker 5: the Recovery Act was divided into three parts. And we
20:21
Speaker 5: used to think, oh, no, he's going down. The Recovery
20:23
Speaker 5: Act is divided into three parts thing again.
20:26
Speaker 2: I feel terrible about that now. Yeah. I'm sure that's
20:31
Speaker 2: why we got clobbered in 2010.
20:32
Speaker 1: I just want you guys to know that we talked
20:34
Speaker 1: about that in the last interview that we did at
20:36
Speaker 1: the White House.
20:37
Speaker 2: Oh, man. Well, it's been a long time. I think
20:39
Speaker 2: it's worth— Clearly, Lovett's been traumatized by this whole thing.
20:42
Speaker 2: I think about it sometimes. He still has PTSD. I
20:44
Speaker 2: think about it sometimes. You know what's funny? You brought
20:47
Speaker 2: up Fetterman.
20:47
Speaker 3: I mean, Fetterman saw something in your campaign in 2008
20:50
Speaker 3: because I think he was like the only— elected official
20:53
Speaker 3: in Western.
20:54
Speaker 2: PA that endorsed us. That's exactly right.
20:56
Speaker 3: And what, like, do you think he's doing, what do
20:57
Speaker 3: you like about him? Is it the look or is
20:59
Speaker 3: it like.
21:02
Speaker 2: Look, you know, words like authenticity get overused, but, um,
21:10
Speaker 2: that the thing I love about Fetterman and you see
21:14
Speaker 2: it in a lot of our other candidates is you
21:17
Speaker 2: feel as if when you're talking to them, that you're
21:21
Speaker 2: having a normal conversation and they have some sense of
21:27
Speaker 2: how the rest of America lips. Yeah. Right. Grounded. Not
21:32
Speaker 2: a lot to ask. It's, it's, it's pretty basic, right? You, you,
21:36
Speaker 2: you feel as if, if that guy walked into a diner,
21:40
Speaker 2: sat down and you started, you know, uh, just, you know,
21:48
Speaker 2: talking about whatever issues came to mind, that you might
21:52
Speaker 2: not agree with everything he said, but you'd feel as
21:55
Speaker 2: if he had a point of view that was informed
21:59
Speaker 2: by his real life experiences, that he was honest about
22:04
Speaker 2: what he believed, that he'd be open to potentially changing
22:08
Speaker 2: his mind if you made a good argument, that there
22:15
Speaker 2: are certain values that he cares about and that he
22:20
Speaker 2: cares about people Now, why it is that those qualities
22:33
Speaker 2: don't seem to always apply to successful Republican candidates, what's
22:39
Speaker 2: going on there, I don't know exactly. But I suspect,
22:44
Speaker 2: and I've talked to you guys about this before, again,
22:47
Speaker 2: it's the degree to which conservative media just has a
22:52
Speaker 2: lock on how people are presented and sort of the
22:57
Speaker 2: dominant narratives there are so powerful that people will vote
23:04
Speaker 2: for DeSantis even if I'm not sure that they would
23:07
Speaker 2: really have a great time He does not seem like
23:10
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. Hanging out with that guy. I
23:13
Speaker 2: think it's going to be a problem for him.
23:14
Speaker 5: It's going to be a problem for him.
23:16
Speaker 2: He's a weird robot.
23:17
Speaker 4: He can't just.
23:18
Speaker 2: Sound like Trump.
23:18
Speaker 1: Do you want Trump without the charisma?
23:20
Speaker 2: Yeah. A couple of them have tried that. Yeah. He's
23:22
Speaker 2: a real piece of work.
23:24
Speaker 3: If you guys will forgive me, I wanted just a little,
23:27
Speaker 3: a couple of international questions.
23:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, man. Look, look. Okay, thank you. You know. You
23:32
Speaker 2: count too. You matter.
23:33
Speaker 5: Thank you so much.
23:34
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
23:34
Speaker 1: As seamless as the transition in the State of the Union.
23:37
Speaker 1: As we're strong at home, so are we strong in
23:39
Speaker 1: the world. And then we're off.
23:42
Speaker 2: Two things that back the economy. You got two lines.
23:47
Speaker 2: Every day. You were fighting this battle. Listen, thank God
23:50
Speaker 2: for Ben.
23:52
Speaker 3: I saw that you, Michelle, put out a statement in
23:53
Speaker 3: support of the Iranian protesters earlier this week. I was
23:57
Speaker 3: just wondering why you thought it was important to weigh
23:59
Speaker 3: in and if you think there's lessons we can learn
24:01
Speaker 3: from the Green Movement in 2009 or the Arab Spring
24:04
Speaker 3: about which of these democratic movements succeed and fail and why.
24:08
Speaker 2: I think there's no way to predict how this plays out.
24:15
Speaker 2: One thing we all learned through the Arab Spring, the
24:21
Speaker 2: Green Movement in Iran and a lot of other places
24:24
Speaker 2: is that You can't underestimate the power of just sheer
24:30
Speaker 2: force and violence, sadly, and the repressive mechanisms that a
24:36
Speaker 2: government like Iran has in place. But there are a
24:39
Speaker 2: couple of conclusions we can draw from. Number one is
24:43
Speaker 2: that there is deep dissatisfaction with the Iranian regime. Number two,
24:54
Speaker 2: that women in particular are chafing under a series of,
25:03
Speaker 2: not just systematic discrimination against women and subjugation of women,
25:11
Speaker 2: but also an arbitrariness and cruelty beneath that's exercised by
25:20
Speaker 2: the state against women, which has made them, essentially say,
25:25
Speaker 2: we're fed up, we're tired of this. And that's extraordinarily powerful.
25:32
Speaker 2: Whether it ends up bringing about fundamental change in that regime,
25:38
Speaker 2: I think is hard to predict. But the one thing that,
25:45
Speaker 2: when I think back to 2009, 2010, you guys will
25:46
Speaker 2: recall there was a big debate inside the White House
25:53
Speaker 2: about whether I should publicly affirm what was going on
25:58
Speaker 2: with the Green Movement because a lot of the activists
26:00
Speaker 2: were being accused of being tools of the West and
26:03
Speaker 2: there was some thought that we were somehow gonna be
26:08
Speaker 2: undermining their street cred in Iran if I supported what
26:14
Speaker 2: they were doing. And in retrospect, I think that was
26:17
Speaker 2: a mistake. Every time we see a flash, a glimmer
26:27
Speaker 2: of hope, of people longing for freedom, I think we
26:31
Speaker 2: have to point it out. We have to shine a
26:35
Speaker 2: spotlight on it. We have to express some solidarity about it.
26:39
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean, by the way, that the administration is,
26:43
Speaker 2: that a US administration shouldn't be taking in a bunch
26:50
Speaker 2: of other equities into account. They have to, a president
26:54
Speaker 2: has to, right? So I continue to believe that the
27:00
Speaker 2: Iran nuclear deal was a really important thing for us
27:04
Speaker 2: to do to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon.
27:06
Speaker 2: Had we not had that in place, I think Iran
27:10
Speaker 2: would have had a nuclear weapon by now.
27:12
Speaker 3: Well, look how well it's gone since we pulled out.
27:14
Speaker 2: Exactly, right? So you still have to make decisions. often
27:19
Speaker 2: very difficult about, are there places where you do business
27:23
Speaker 2: with a government that is repressive? And that's the job
27:28
Speaker 2: of a president and an administration facing a complicated world.
27:37
Speaker 2: But our moral response to the incredible courage that is
27:42
Speaker 2: taking place in Iran and those women and girls who
27:45
Speaker 2: are on the streets knowing that they're putting themselves in
27:49
Speaker 2: harm's way, to speak truth to power. We have to
27:54
Speaker 2: affirm what they do and hope that it brings about
27:58
Speaker 2: more space for the kind of civic conversation that over
28:05
Speaker 2: time can take that country down a better path.
28:09
Speaker 3: Speaking of brutal repressive governments, I mean, it's been eight months,
28:13
Speaker 3: nine months since Putin launched this invasion of Ukraine. I
28:16
Speaker 3: think everyone's been impressed with the way the Ukrainians have fought,
28:19
Speaker 3: how effectively they fought. I've been impressed with how much
28:22
Speaker 3: Europe has actually stepped up and supported them. The flip
28:26
Speaker 3: side of that success, though, is the fact that it
28:29
Speaker 3: appears that Russia is losing or at least losing ground.
28:32
Speaker 3: Putin is getting pushed further into the corner. So I'm
28:34
Speaker 3: just wondering if you have thoughts for people who are
28:36
Speaker 3: watching this. They're inspired by the Ukrainian resistance. They want
28:40
Speaker 3: them to defend their country successfully. But they're also pretty
28:44
Speaker 3: nervous about continued escalation and this chatter about Russia using
28:49
Speaker 3: a nuclear weapon.
28:52
Speaker 2: I think what the Ukrainian people have accomplished is extraordinary.
28:58
Speaker 2: And it's a testimony to not just the courage of
29:03
Speaker 2: a few soldiers, but this is an entire nation mobilizing
29:09
Speaker 2: in the face of extraordinary odds. and making tremendous sacrifices.
29:19
Speaker 2: And Zelensky himself has risen to the moment in a
29:22
Speaker 2: way that his biography would not have necessarily anticipated. So
29:30
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it is not our
29:33
Speaker 2: job to tell the Ukrainians, when is it enough? How
29:36
Speaker 2: far should they go? What concessions should they make? make,
29:41
Speaker 2: et cetera. That's up to them. As their allies, it
29:48
Speaker 2: is important for us to support them financially, militarily, through
29:56
Speaker 2: our intelligence, We do have, however, to be clear and
30:05
Speaker 2: honest with them about what we can and cannot do.
30:09
Speaker 2: And there are lines that we have to determine internally,
30:17
Speaker 2: the US, NATO, and others, that take into account the
30:26
Speaker 2: risk of this tipping into a Russia-US-NATO conflict as opposed
30:34
Speaker 2: to a Russia-Ukraine conflict. I'm not privy to enough of
30:38
Speaker 2: the intelligence at this stage, and it's not my job
30:44
Speaker 2: as a private citizen to weigh in on where that
30:49
Speaker 2: line should be drawn. But as we're thinking about, for example,
30:53
Speaker 2: what weapons we're sending in or how we're approaching our
30:56
Speaker 2: support for Ukraine, I think thinking about where defense stops
31:02
Speaker 2: and offense begins and how we manage that is something
31:07
Speaker 2: that we have to pay attention to. And I do
31:09
Speaker 2: think probably the thing that I'm most concerned about is
31:13
Speaker 2: that lines of communication between the White House and the
31:19
Speaker 2: Kremlin are probably as weak as they have been in
31:24
Speaker 2: a very long time, even in the in some of
31:31
Speaker 2: the lowest points of the Cold War, there was still
31:35
Speaker 2: a sense of the ability to pick up a phone
31:38
Speaker 2: and work through diplomatic channels to send clear signals. And
31:49
Speaker 2: a lot of that is broken down, and I don't
31:50
Speaker 2: think it's the fault of our administration. I think that
31:56
Speaker 2: we're now dealing with a type of Russian regime that
32:01
Speaker 2: is actually even more centralized, even more isolated and closed off.
32:09
Speaker 2: I think Putin has consolidated decision-making to a degree that
32:15
Speaker 2: we haven't seen, even during the Soviet era. And that,
32:22
Speaker 2: I think, creates some dangers in us finding ways in
32:25
Speaker 2: which some of that communication can be reestablished, I think
32:30
Speaker 2: would be important.
32:33
Speaker 5: As we defend democratic values abroad, we defend them here
32:36
Speaker 5: at home.
32:36
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. We're back? That I think was a little better.
32:42
Speaker 2: I have to admit.
32:55
Speaker 5: So one of the things you've said since leaving office
32:58
Speaker 5: is it's your job to kind of step back and
33:00
Speaker 5: allow a new generation of leaders to emerge. Did you
33:02
Speaker 5: intend on that to be the silent generation?
33:04
Speaker 2: All right. So you were just saving that joke. Yeah.
33:11
Speaker 2: It's hyped up.
33:13
Speaker 5: No, the real, the real, the real question is, you know,
33:17
Speaker 5: when we talked a couple of years ago, you, you,
33:18
Speaker 5: you pointed to young people that you were excited about.
33:21
Speaker 5: Are there, are there, are there young leaders that are
33:23
Speaker 5: inspiring to you, exciting to you that you're seeing?
33:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, one of the things I want to emphasize
33:29
Speaker 2: in this midterm is the importance of looking not just
33:32
Speaker 2: at the top of the ballot, but all the way
33:34
Speaker 2: down the bottom. Because there are governor's races, secretary of
33:41
Speaker 2: state's races, state legislative races that are going to really matter.
33:47
Speaker 2: When we talk about how are we going to preserve democracy,
33:52
Speaker 2: particularly at a time when The current Supreme Court, to
34:01
Speaker 2: put it charitably, does not seem as invested in overseeing
34:10
Speaker 2: and stopping monkey business at the local level. It becomes
34:18
Speaker 2: that much more important for us to make sure that
34:20
Speaker 2: we've got quality candidates and we're supporting them and we're
34:24
Speaker 2: turning out for them at every level. Because it may
34:29
Speaker 2: turn out that in a close presidential election at some point,
34:34
Speaker 2: certification of an election in a key swing state may
34:40
Speaker 2: be at issue. And it's going to be really important
34:44
Speaker 2: that we have people there who play it straight. So
34:51
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of talent, but there's a gap
34:55
Speaker 2: between the talent that's coming up, a lot of them
35:00
Speaker 2: are 40 and under. And then we have our national
35:06
Speaker 2: leadership that is over 40. And why that gap exists,
35:17
Speaker 2: we can speculate. But the good news is, I think
35:21
Speaker 2: there are A lot of talented members of Congress, young people,
35:27
Speaker 2: and I don't want to, the problem is if I
35:28
Speaker 2: start naming somebody, then, you know, wow, you left me out.
35:34
Speaker 2: So I don't want to do that. But if you
35:37
Speaker 2: look at the talent that's in Congress right now, young,
35:45
Speaker 2: dynamic folks who are willing to shake things up, it's
35:51
Speaker 2: really impressive. And, you know, it's just going to be
35:55
Speaker 2: a matter of them continuing on the path they're on
35:59
Speaker 2: and then making that leap where they start getting national attention.
36:03
Speaker 2: I think it's a little harder now to break out
36:07
Speaker 2: nationally than it was even when I was running, right?
36:10
Speaker 2: I mean, I give one keynote address and suddenly I'm
36:16
Speaker 2: pretty well known nationally, right? I'm not sure. And obviously
36:22
Speaker 2: the last one was during COVID. So it, it, it,
36:25
Speaker 2: we may not have tested this proposition yet, but whether
36:29
Speaker 2: with the splintering of the media, that's still possible. Right. And, um,
36:34
Speaker 2: and so, you know, one of the things that I'm
36:37
Speaker 2: hoping to do over the next, um, several years is
36:42
Speaker 2: in between elections, maybe bring together some of this talent
36:46
Speaker 2: and see how I can lift them up and support them. Um, And,
36:52
Speaker 2: you know, because it turns out I still have like
36:56
Speaker 2: a lot of Twitter followers. And that's political power. More
36:59
Speaker 2: than some people, although I don't really talk about it
37:01
Speaker 2: all the time.
37:03
Speaker 5: Why do you think Gen X didn't run? Do you
37:04
Speaker 5: think it was grunge? What do you think happened? They
37:08
Speaker 5: just set the whole thing up.
37:09
Speaker 2: It's weird. It's a little weird. It's a little weird.
37:12
Speaker 2: There you go. All right, you done? Yeah, I'm done.
37:16
Speaker 5: I was supposed to keep it loose.
37:18
Speaker 2: You're doing a great job.
37:18
Speaker 5: Thank you.
37:19
Speaker 4: You are the Supreme Court. And in part for the
37:22
Speaker 4: very reasons you say, the Supreme Court is now held
37:24
Speaker 4: at its lowest esteem in history. Polls show that there's
37:28
Speaker 4: tremendous distrust. Voters say it's rigged. political, it doesn't represent
37:32
Speaker 4: the majority. Are you open to some reforms to try
37:36
Speaker 4: to address that challenge? Is there something we can do
37:39
Speaker 4: about that? Because we're kind of stuck with this Supreme
37:42
Speaker 4: Court for a while.
37:43
Speaker 2: I'm open to it. I think it has to be
37:47
Speaker 2: thought through. One of the arguments we made at the
37:51
Speaker 2: time when McConnell decided to invent a new principle that
37:57
Speaker 2: he then breached later about Merrick Garland and why the
38:03
Speaker 2: guy wouldn't even get a hearing or a vote is
38:07
Speaker 2: that if you start playing such explicit political games in
38:14
Speaker 2: the appointment process, it's hard for people not to feel
38:19
Speaker 2: as if this is just an extension of day-to-day congressional
38:25
Speaker 2: politics as opposed to the Supreme Court stands above, to
38:33
Speaker 2: some degree, those politics. I think winning back that trust
38:39
Speaker 2: is going to take some time. I'm not sure it's
38:42
Speaker 2: even going to be solved unless we solve some of
38:45
Speaker 2: the underlying polarization that we've been talking about earlier. I
38:54
Speaker 2: know I've been talking for a long time about the
38:56
Speaker 2: fever breaking in the Republican Party. It's on the bingo card.
39:01
Speaker 5: It's long polarization.
39:03
Speaker 2: That was good. I like that. That was good. And
39:12
Speaker 2: I'm under no illusions that some of those things are
39:20
Speaker 2: going to be fixed anytime soon. But I do think
39:25
Speaker 2: that if we reform the Supreme Court, uh, simply by, uh,
39:35
Speaker 2: figuring out ways to get more Democrats on there and
39:39
Speaker 2: stack it up, um, then it's not going to solve
39:44
Speaker 2: the legitimacy problem in the Supreme Court. It's just that
39:46
Speaker 2: we'll win more cases for a while. Um, which as
39:51
Speaker 2: a partisan, as somebody who thinks there's a right way
39:57
Speaker 2: to think about women's reproductive health, that there's a better
40:03
Speaker 2: way to think about equality for the LGBTQ plus community,
40:13
Speaker 2: I would much prefer us winning five to four, then
40:20
Speaker 2: losing six to three. But what I'd like even more
40:27
Speaker 2: is for us to find ways in which we can
40:29
Speaker 2: get to a point where justices bring their own perspective
40:41
Speaker 2: to bear, but are willing to actually look at precedent
40:47
Speaker 2: and look at how society is moving and are making
40:52
Speaker 2: judgments not based on a bunch of rigid ideological criteria.
41:04
Speaker 2: The last point I'd make on this, and this was
41:07
Speaker 2: actually weirdly in my law school career, paper that recently got...
41:14
Speaker 2: You've got to publish that thing. I will not.
41:17
Speaker 3: Money in the bank.
41:19
Speaker 2: But I do think that it's important for progressives not
41:26
Speaker 2: to count too much on the courts. One of the
41:34
Speaker 2: problems with Roe was that it did make, I think,
41:39
Speaker 2: a lot of voters complacent, figuring eh, do I really
41:43
Speaker 2: have to trudge over and vote in some obscure midterm election?
41:47
Speaker 2: Because I know that the Supreme Court is protecting me
41:52
Speaker 2: when it comes to my right to choose. And I
41:55
Speaker 2: think that we have to be mindful that even if
42:00
Speaker 2: we have a independent, thoughtful Supreme Court that's not entirely
42:07
Speaker 2: ideologically driven, It's still part of our democracy. It's still
42:11
Speaker 2: reflective of our politics. You have to still do the
42:19
Speaker 2: work on the ground of changing people's hearts and minds
42:24
Speaker 2: and attitudes about issues because the court generally follows societal
42:31
Speaker 2: trends more than it leads. It's very rare where the
42:34
Speaker 2: court gets ahead of society in a significant way. It
42:38
Speaker 2: typically reacts in response. And more often when it's gotten ahead,
42:42
Speaker 2: by the way, it's done bad things rather than good things.
42:46
Speaker 2: Brown versus Board of Education, Roe versus Wade may be
42:49
Speaker 2: two exceptions. But even after those decisions, it's not as
42:57
Speaker 2: if the issue was settled and politics went away, as
43:01
Speaker 2: we've just learned. So there's no shortcuts here.
43:18
Speaker 2: That work never stops. The thing I
43:27
Speaker 2: worry most about during these midterms, and this happened throughout
43:31
Speaker 2: my presidency and pretty much every democratic presidency is that we,
43:41
Speaker 2: our democratic voters get real hyped up around presidential races.
43:46
Speaker 2: And we lose interest a lot of times during midterms.
43:52
Speaker 2: And then we're puzzled as to, well, why isn't more
43:57
Speaker 2: stuff happening? And then we use the fact that more
44:01
Speaker 2: stuff isn't happening as an excuse to not vote again
44:04
Speaker 2: in the midterms. And look, anybody who's listened to your podcast,
44:11
Speaker 2: I'm preaching to the choir, I'm assuming. But for those
44:15
Speaker 2: of you who are listening and have friends whose attitude is,
44:18
Speaker 2: you know, I'm so progressive that I don't bother voting because,
44:22
Speaker 2: you know, it's all just a neoliberal, you know, plot.
44:31
Speaker 2: Keep in mind that, let's say the climate policy in
44:40
Speaker 2: the big Biden administration bill. They're not going to solve
44:47
Speaker 2: climate problems. Temperatures are still going up. The planet's still warming.
44:55
Speaker 2: But it makes a big difference whether the planet goes
44:57
Speaker 2: up 2% or 3% or 4%. That might be billions
45:06
Speaker 2: of people who are displaced or not displaced. That might
45:11
Speaker 2: mean entire cities that are flooded or not and may
45:19
Speaker 2: make a huge difference in terms of our capacity to
45:26
Speaker 2: manage these changes that are taking place. So if you
45:31
Speaker 2: vote and we've made it more likely that temperatures rise 2.2%
45:41
Speaker 2: rather than 3%. That's gotta be worth 15 minutes of
45:46
Speaker 2: your time.
45:47
Speaker 3: It seems like a good thing.
45:49
Speaker 2: It has to be. The same is true when it
45:53
Speaker 2: comes to issues like racial justice. Is your vote going
45:58
Speaker 2: to eliminate racism or problems between police and communities of color?
46:04
Speaker 2: Across the country? Probably not. But you know what? It
46:09
Speaker 2: could mean a different DA someplace. It could mean the
46:14
Speaker 2: difference in terms of making an investment in diversion programs
46:20
Speaker 2: that give kids a chance and don't simply lock them
46:25
Speaker 2: up for 20 years. And that's got to be worth
46:29
Speaker 2: 15 minutes of your time. And then you can continue
46:34
Speaker 2: to work for the broader vision that you're looking for.
46:42
Speaker 2: But I do get frustrated with an attitude that I'm
46:49
Speaker 2: too cool to vote. That you see floating around the
46:56
Speaker 2: internet a lot among folks who purport to be progressive.
47:02
Speaker 2: And I can't wrap my head around that argument because
47:09
Speaker 2: it's not as if these folks who are on social
47:16
Speaker 2: media making this argument are out leading the revolution, right?
47:22
Speaker 2: They're not, they're on social media.
47:25
Speaker 1: They're not knocking on doors.
47:25
Speaker 2: They're not knocking on doors. Well, but you know, they
47:34
Speaker 2: are not offering a plausible alternative course of action. This
47:41
Speaker 2: is the game we have. This is the power we have.
47:45
Speaker 2: And it turns out that that power is pretty significant.
47:48
Speaker 2: Will it get us all the way to the promised land?
47:53
Speaker 1: No.
47:54
Speaker 2: But that's how things get better. And not to Not
48:01
Speaker 2: to repeat myself, but better is good. Better is good.
48:06
Speaker 1: Has the current political crisis that we're in changed the
48:10
Speaker 1: way you are thinking about your post-presidential role in public life?
48:17
Speaker 2: It certainly changed the first four years, where I was
48:20
Speaker 2: probably more active politically than I would have anticipated. I mean,
48:28
Speaker 2: there's a little bit of, I admire the, you know, Cincinnati's,
48:35
Speaker 2: you know, George Washington going off, you know, uh, I'm
48:38
Speaker 2: a private citizen now kind of vibe.
48:40
Speaker 5: I always use the Cincinnati's reference as well.
48:44
Speaker 2: Um, but, but I thought that the, that the stakes
48:49
Speaker 2: were high enough, uh, during the four years that, that, uh,
48:55
Speaker 2: my successor was an office that, um, that I, I, I,
49:00
Speaker 2: was more vocal and still tried to pick and choose
49:04
Speaker 2: my spots, but was more engaged and involved. Obviously, with
49:09
Speaker 2: Joe Biden in the White House now, I've been trying
49:12
Speaker 2: to refocus my attention on what had always been my
49:18
Speaker 2: original intention, which is to focus on developing the next
49:22
Speaker 2: generation of leaders through the work we're doing at the foundation.
49:26
Speaker 2: The one thing that probably I'm more attuned to now
49:31
Speaker 2: is trying to make sure that as we're working with
49:40
Speaker 2: young leaders through the foundation that were maybe a little
49:46
Speaker 2: more explicit about the democratic values that are at stake.
49:53
Speaker 2: And I'm becoming more interested in working with folks, partnering
50:00
Speaker 2: with organizations that are experimenting with ways in which we
50:05
Speaker 2: can strengthen our democratic muscles, right? So, um, issues like
50:12
Speaker 2: misinformation and, and how do we create a, a social
50:15
Speaker 2: media environment that in which facts and reason and logic, uh,
50:21
Speaker 2: at least, uh, have a shot, um, and, and, and, and, and,
50:27
Speaker 2: and go beyond sort of, um, the, the, the 60%
50:34
Speaker 2: of the country that already occupies that space and is
50:37
Speaker 2: able to reach the 40% who consume most of their
50:41
Speaker 2: news through Fox or whatever the latest radio host is
50:51
Speaker 2: or podcaster is on the right. Because I know those folks.
51:00
Speaker 2: You look at a place like Iowa, right? and what's
51:03
Speaker 2: changed there. It's the same people. It's not fundamentally different.
51:08
Speaker 2: They're just getting a bunch of different information. And so
51:10
Speaker 2: the filter is so thick that if I were to
51:13
Speaker 2: go back into the exact same communities, it'd be a
51:16
Speaker 2: lot harder to get a hearing. And so how media works,
51:24
Speaker 2: I'm spending a lot of time thinking about what are
51:26
Speaker 2: the tools we can develop to crack that code. I
51:33
Speaker 2: think part of what we talked about earlier, how do
51:37
Speaker 2: we think about pluralism and culture in a smarter way
51:46
Speaker 2: so that we preserve the gains and continue advance the, oh,
51:54
Speaker 2: that we continue to, whose phone is that? Okay. I'll
52:02
Speaker 2: bet it's, love it. It's fine.
52:05
Speaker 5: It's fine.
52:06
Speaker 2: It's fine. But, you know, how can we train folks,
52:14
Speaker 2: young leaders, to be able to champion the rights of
52:23
Speaker 2: racial minorities and people of different sexual orientations and women,
52:29
Speaker 2: but have a language that is inclusive and makes people
52:35
Speaker 2: feel as if that we're assuming the best in them
52:46
Speaker 2: and not the worst, right? That becomes interesting to me.
52:52
Speaker 2: So I think I'm spending more time thinking about the
52:55
Speaker 2: building blocks of democracy and where we've seen it break down,
52:59
Speaker 2: where have been the the cracks in the foundation that,
53:06
Speaker 2: that need to be shored up? Uh, and are there,
53:09
Speaker 2: are there ways in which I can be helpful in, in, uh,
53:13
Speaker 2: ensuring those up? And, and that's just to bring poor
53:17
Speaker 2: Tommy back into the conversation. Uh, there is, you know, that, that, that,
53:20
Speaker 2: that's where I do think, um, uh, there, there is
53:27
Speaker 2: a through line between what's happening here in the United
53:30
Speaker 2: States and, and, uh, countries around the world. I mean, you,
53:33
Speaker 2: you look at what's happening in Europe, you look at
53:36
Speaker 2: the Italian election, you look at the recent French election,
53:38
Speaker 2: you look at, you know, these far right parties that
53:41
Speaker 2: are popping up in Scandinavia, Sweden, Victor, right. And, and, and, and,
53:47
Speaker 2: and obviously Hungary's, uh, you know, we've seen over the
53:50
Speaker 2: last several years, um, in all these places, right. What,
53:56
Speaker 2: what you're seeing is that, um, if you define democracy
54:01
Speaker 2: just as elections, that's not enough. That there's an infrastructure
54:08
Speaker 2: that has to be built and a set of values
54:11
Speaker 2: that have to be transmitted. And that how we thought
54:16
Speaker 2: about globalization and trade and immigration and all that stuff,
54:23
Speaker 2: that how not in some cases the actual policies, but
54:28
Speaker 2: certainly how we communicated that to voters throughout some of
54:39
Speaker 2: the wealthiest countries in the world didn't work, didn't connect.
54:44
Speaker 2: And you see this rise of strongman politics that is dangerous.
54:51
Speaker 2: And it's not very different than what we've seen happening
54:55
Speaker 2: here through the Republican Party. So rather than just What
55:02
Speaker 2: elections can do, and the reason, again, that I'm on
55:06
Speaker 2: with you, Jim Oakes, is you got an election coming
55:12
Speaker 2: up and you got to vote. And so that's the
55:15
Speaker 2: immediate short-term response to these threats is you have to
55:22
Speaker 2: get people in there who believe in the basic precepts
55:26
Speaker 2: of democracy and care about working people. But over the
55:31
Speaker 2: long term, there are some of these structural issues that
55:36
Speaker 2: we have not addressed. And there's still a problem. And
55:41
Speaker 2: so to the extent that I can be useful on
55:45
Speaker 2: that front, that's what I care about.
55:46
Speaker 1: I think you can be useful on that front.
55:48
Speaker 2: Maybe.
55:49
Speaker 1: President Obama, thank you so much for sitting down with us.
55:51
Speaker 2: This was good fun, guys. This was great. I appreciate it.
55:54
Speaker 2: And you should invite me on. More often. Please. Open invitation.
55:59
Speaker 3: If you want to brainstorm this media stuff, we could
56:01
Speaker 3: get a Zoom going.
56:03
Speaker 2: Just chat. No, I'm not going to do that. All right, guys.
56:07
Speaker 2: It was great to see you. Perfect.
56:16
Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
56:19
Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
56:23
Speaker 1: Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed
56:26
Speaker 1: and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis
56:29
Speaker 1: sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
56:32
Speaker 1: Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
56:35
Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
56:39
Speaker 1: and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
56:43
Speaker 1: slash podsaveamerica.