Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #49 Should Christians Pay Taxes?

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#49 Should Christians Pay Taxes? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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SPEAKER_01: You are listening to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm Tim Wright, along with John Burgess and Terry Summers.
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SPEAKER_01: And having just passed Pax Day, and with all the talk about tariffs,
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SPEAKER_01: We've got a really timely story for you today.
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SPEAKER_01: Should Christians pay taxes?
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SPEAKER_01: And as we're going to see,
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SPEAKER_01: as is true with every Jesus story,
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus is up to something here that's far different than we often say.
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And so this isn't going to be so much a story about paying
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taxes as it's going to
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SPEAKER_01: be a story about the kingdom of God and what God thinks of us.
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So just for some context,
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before we read the story for today,
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we are in Holy Week.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus has just done two intentional symbolic actions.
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He has ridden into Jerusalem on a donkey in a way to mock the
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Roman Empire and its
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SPEAKER_01: power and its tyranny.
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And he comes in the kingdom of God with grace and compassion
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and humility.
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SPEAKER_01: And then he went into the temple.
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And shocked the religious leaders by taking them to task for
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robbing all nations,
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SPEAKER_01: the Gentiles,
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SPEAKER_01: from the ability to worship in the temple,
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exerting his authority and saying that the God of Israel is the
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God for everyone.
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So now we're going to have the next few stories will sort of be
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Jesus just going
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SPEAKER_01: through the rest of that week as it leads to Good Friday and,
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SPEAKER_01: of course,
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SPEAKER_01: Easter Sunday.
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SPEAKER_01: And we aren't,
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SPEAKER_01: as if you've been following this at all,
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SPEAKER_01: we're not doing everything in the Gospel of Mark.
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SPEAKER_01: We're just trying to hit the main points to get the gist of the story.
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And so we have one now where Jesus is asked a really
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interesting question.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're in the Gospel of Mark.
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SPEAKER_01: We're in chapter 12, verses 13 through 17.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think today I'm going to ask Terry to read it.
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SPEAKER_02: Excellent choice.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Terry, you want to read it?
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SPEAKER_01: She's looking at us like she's stunned.
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SPEAKER_01: No, she's not just stunned.
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SPEAKER_01: I think we've lost her.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you did for a second.
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I don't see that I'm having internet issues,
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but yeah,
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you did for a second.
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SPEAKER_00: And it was just right, I think, at a cliffhanger.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: It was a cliffhanger.
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SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden Terry's face was just frozen in shock.
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SPEAKER_01: Me read scripture.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Can you read it for us, Terry?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, I would love to.
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SPEAKER_00: All right.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's beginning verse 13 of chapter 12.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: All right.
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SPEAKER_00: All right.
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SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
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And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the
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Herodians to trap him in his talk and
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SPEAKER_00: And they came and said to him,
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SPEAKER_00: Teacher,
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SPEAKER_00: we know that you are true and do not care about anyone's opinion,
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SPEAKER_00: for you are not swayed by appearances,
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SPEAKER_00: but truly teach the way of God.
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SPEAKER_00: Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?
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SPEAKER_00: Should we pay them or should we not?
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SPEAKER_00: But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, Why put me to the test?
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SPEAKER_00: Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.
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SPEAKER_00: And they brought one.
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SPEAKER_00: And he said to them, Whose likeness and inscription is this?
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SPEAKER_00: And they said to him, Caesar's.
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SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to them,
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Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the
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things that are God's.
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SPEAKER_00: And they marveled at him.
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SPEAKER_01: All righty.
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SPEAKER_01: So we've got some good stuff going on here.
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let me just give a couple little insights into who the players
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are in this particular setting.
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So the Pharisees are a group of religious leaders who
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essentially they see their
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SPEAKER_01: mission as keeping the religion of Israel as pure as possible.
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So they tend to be the main antagonists to Jesus along with the Sadducees,
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SPEAKER_01: but the Pharisees are...
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the rule followers,
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the law of Moses,
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they're upholding the law of Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: They oftentimes get a bad rap,
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but what they're trying to do is they're trying to protect the
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people of Israel
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SPEAKER_01: from the influences of Rome and other religions.
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They're trying to keep the people of Israel committed to the
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God of Israel by
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SPEAKER_01: saying this is what it looks like to follow God.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: They took the Ten Commandments,
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SPEAKER_01: and over the centuries,
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SPEAKER_01: it ended up being 600 and some commandments.
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SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, if you've got one commandment, what does that mean?
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SPEAKER_01: And then you need 10 more to explain what that means.
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So it got to be really quite a heavy burden,
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as Jesus would say,
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for the people.
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SPEAKER_01: But again, they're not the bad guys.
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They're really trying in a world where they've been under Greek
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domination and
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Roman domination to keep the people of Israel rooted in the God
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of Israel.
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SPEAKER_01: That was their job.
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The Herodians were a political party who supported Herod and
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specifically in this case,
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SPEAKER_01: Herod Antipas.
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SPEAKER_01: And long story short, Herod and Herod Antipas were like vassal kings.
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SPEAKER_01: They were kind of Jewish, but their allegiance was really to Rome.
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And their job was to sort of be the intermediaries between Rome
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and the people of Israel.
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SPEAKER_01: Herod,
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SPEAKER_01: who was the king of the Jews,
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SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_01: when Jesus was born,
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SPEAKER_01: was a man who was a man of tyranny.
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he was around during Mark Antony and Cleopatra and had
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relationships with them,
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SPEAKER_01: names that we would all know.
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His son Herod Antipas is now kind of the Herod of part of
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Israel when Jesus is around.
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SPEAKER_01: These people are all in on him.
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So it would sort of be like Republicans would be in on their
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candidate or Democrats
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SPEAKER_01: and their candidate.
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SPEAKER_01: They're all in on this guy.
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SPEAKER_01: And so in a sense,
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that the Pharisees and the Herodians are working together as
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sort of strange
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bedfellows because the Herodians weren't necessarily the
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strictest of Jews.
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But it's interesting how enemies can come together when they
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have a common enemy,
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SPEAKER_01: and that's who Jesus becomes.
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SPEAKER_01: So in this particular case,
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and I want to just render the reading a bit differently so that
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it will make a bit
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SPEAKER_01: more sense.
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SPEAKER_01: Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor?
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SPEAKER_01: Why are you putting me to the test?
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SPEAKER_01: Bring me a denarius, let me see.
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SPEAKER_01: And they brought him one.
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SPEAKER_01: Then he said, whose image is on that coin?
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SPEAKER_01: Whose image is on that coin?
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SPEAKER_01: They answered him, it's the emperor's.
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SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus says,
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give to the emperor the things of the emperor's and to God the
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things that are God's.
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So I think that's going to help us a bit understand what Jesus
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is saying here.
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This is not,
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as it's often been used,
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about good citizens paying their taxes.
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We can have that discussion biblically in other places,
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but that's not what this is about.
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SPEAKER_01: Once again,
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Jesus is saying something significant about our relationship to
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the empire and our
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SPEAKER_01: relationship to God.
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SPEAKER_01: And the word image is going to be very, very important.
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So having said all that and just teased a little bit,
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John,
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you don't read.
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SPEAKER_01: We always give you the first thought.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean, I read generally.
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SPEAKER_02: I just don't read on the podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: That's what you mean, right?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: So my first thought of this,
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SPEAKER_02: if this was about paying taxes in our highly produced podcast,
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SPEAKER_02: we would have had it come out on April 14th instead of just afterwards.
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SPEAKER_02: So that was our first clue that it wasn't going to be about that.
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uh i'm always drawn to the humanity in the scripture i love uh
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this whole um the
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the question as much as as uh tim you're gonna um talk to us
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about it not being
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about that that is the question that lead that's sort of it
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leads us into this
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discussion is that's right are we supposed to be paying taxes
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or not and i love the
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SPEAKER_02: whole
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you know,
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these folks getting together and saying,
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let's,
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let's give him a tough question.
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SPEAKER_02: And when we do it, let's butter him up first.
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SPEAKER_02: So he doesn't really see the zinger coming.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_02: and I,
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SPEAKER_02: and,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know how that plays with Jesus standing there,
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SPEAKER_02: but I'm guessing he probably doesn't need to be told how honest he is,
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SPEAKER_02: how impartial,
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how he doesn't play favorites and how he always teaches the way
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of God truthfully.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I just think that's sarcasm, isn't it?
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SPEAKER_02: It really absolutely is.
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SPEAKER_02: And so yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: Then the zinger comes and I also, then I go to the end.
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SPEAKER_02: There's a lesson in there, which I think is easy to miss.
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And then at the end,
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it's the New Living Translation says his reply completely
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amazed them.
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SPEAKER_02: The message says their mouths hung open, speechless.
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And I just think that if you start with the question,
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are we supposed to pay taxes or not?
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And the answer is give to Caesar what is Caesar,
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give to God's what is God's.
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SPEAKER_02: Most of the amazement had to have been, what does that mean?
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right is that is that should we pay or not should we pay and i
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because that's what
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we want to know and actually that would be great podcast even
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if it's not this one
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SPEAKER_00: tim okay all right terry um i uh i have always taken it quite literally
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SPEAKER_00: That shows you that in terms of my Bible studying, it's very topsoil.
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SPEAKER_00: But now that I am on to the symbolic action,
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I am probably just – and that you isolated and read from a
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different translation
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SPEAKER_00: that said image –
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SPEAKER_00: I am now sitting here somewhat with bated breath.
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SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to read that scripture, but I was afraid.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be offensive.
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SPEAKER_00: But I also, like John said, well, wow.
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SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes,
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SPEAKER_00: though,
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when it did seem somewhat manipulative in the way that they
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addressed him,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of like we are...
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SPEAKER_00: going to corner him a little bit with the goodness of him.
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SPEAKER_00: And that just stuck out to me about the Pharisees.
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And I know you said they get a bad rap,
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but I'm more just curious at this point now.
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I don't know that I think anything I would have asked or
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commented on before has
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SPEAKER_00: now sort of been snipped.
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SPEAKER_00: because I'm digging deeper with you.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm just waiting to hear what you have to say.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So in the context of the week,
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Jesus has really alienated the religious leaders by going in
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and clearing out the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: What right do you have to tell us, first of all, we're doing it wrong,
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to tell us what to believe about God,
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and then to kick out all these people.
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SPEAKER_01: Who do you think you are?
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SPEAKER_01: And in the flow of Mark's gospel, this happens on the same day.
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SPEAKER_01: As?
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SPEAKER_01: As the cleaning of the temple.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: So, at least I think it does.
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SPEAKER_01: And...
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SPEAKER_01: So already we know that they want to get rid of him.
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SPEAKER_01: They want to set a trap for him.
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SPEAKER_01: And this is going to be one of the ways they do that.
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SPEAKER_01: So here's the trap.
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SPEAKER_01: Should we pay taxes or not?
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SPEAKER_01: If he says yes, he's siding with the Roman Empire.
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SPEAKER_01: Over against the Jews.
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SPEAKER_01: And he's saying.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes it's okay for them to come.
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SPEAKER_01: And be our oppressors.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes I am in support of them.
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SPEAKER_01: If he says no.
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SPEAKER_01: Then he can be charged.
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SPEAKER_01: With insurrection against the Roman Empire.
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SPEAKER_01: And be put to death.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So there is no way.
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SPEAKER_01: That Jesus can win on this one.
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SPEAKER_01: At least in their minds.
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SPEAKER_01: Because either way.
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He will fall out of favor with the Jews who have been
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supportive of him,
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those who are.
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SPEAKER_01: Because, uh-oh, wait a minute.
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SPEAKER_01: Now he's for the Romans?
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Or they're going to be able to go to Pilate and say,
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this guy here has got a big audience.
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SPEAKER_01: You should hear what he's saying.
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SPEAKER_01: We shouldn't pay taxes.
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SPEAKER_01: And you know what happens when we stop paying taxes.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a short step to insurrection.
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SPEAKER_01: So they think they've got him.
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SPEAKER_01: And again, they come and they... And Jesus knows what they're doing.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, you're such a good guy and you don't bow to anyone.
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SPEAKER_01: You just give it to us.
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SPEAKER_01: You're a straight talker.
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SPEAKER_01: So what do you think about this question?
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SPEAKER_01: And by the way, we know that whatever answer you give, we got you.
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SPEAKER_01: It's the gotcha question.
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SPEAKER_01: It's sort of the question, when you think about our journalists...
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SPEAKER_01: some of them who,
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when they get that chance to interview a president or a vice
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president or a
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SPEAKER_01: congressman or a senator or a congresswoman,
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SPEAKER_01: they're sort of waiting for that gotcha moment.
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SPEAKER_01: They sort of build them up.
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SPEAKER_01: Boy, you've done this, this, and this, and bang.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, what about this?
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SPEAKER_01: You just said last week.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what they're doing here.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a gotcha question.
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SPEAKER_01: So it raises the point then what is going on here.
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SPEAKER_01: So Jesus says, well, okay, who's got a coin?
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SPEAKER_01: A denarius.
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SPEAKER_01: Now there's some interesting commentary around this.
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There are some who say that Jewish people would naturally be
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carrying a denarii or
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SPEAKER_01: a Roman coin because they would have to pay Roman taxes.
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SPEAKER_01: They would need to have them.
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There are others who would say that a good Jew would never
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carry that kind of
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SPEAKER_01: coinage because it's pagan coins.
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SPEAKER_01: It's got a pagan symbol on it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's got the head of the emperor on it.
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SPEAKER_01: And you can't have any graven images.
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SPEAKER_01: Both make sense to me.
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SPEAKER_01: But it does beg the question.
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SPEAKER_01: There's an image on this coin.
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SPEAKER_01: And the Jews,
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SPEAKER_01: of course,
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SPEAKER_01: especially people like the Pharisees,
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SPEAKER_01: they don't want any graven images at all.
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any image on any coin,
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and especially the image of an emperor who believes that he's a god.
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So the fact that one of the questioners is carrying that coin
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almost seems like a
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SPEAKER_01: gotcha moment or could be a gotcha moment.
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SPEAKER_01: Wait a minute.
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SPEAKER_01: What are you doing carrying that coin?
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SPEAKER_01: It's got an image engraved on it.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, set up a little bit.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's just an interesting sideline.
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SPEAKER_01: I could go either way on that.
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SPEAKER_01: But what's intriguing here is the language Jesus uses.
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SPEAKER_01: Whose image is on that coin?
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SPEAKER_01: And they say, well, it's Caesar's image.
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SPEAKER_01: He said, well, then it belongs to him.
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SPEAKER_01: But whose image is on you?
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SPEAKER_01: That's the question he's asking.
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SPEAKER_01: when he says,
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SPEAKER_01: give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar,
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SPEAKER_01: give to Caesar what has the image of Caesar on it,
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SPEAKER_01: and give to God what has the image of God on it.
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And so what Jesus is saying here is he's affirming again that
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as human beings,
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SPEAKER_01: we have the image of God imprinted on us,
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SPEAKER_01: embedded in us.
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SPEAKER_01: We're created in the image of God.
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SPEAKER_01: And therefore...
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SPEAKER_01: Let's give ourselves over to the things of God.
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SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus here,
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he kind of masterfully weasels out of the problem by sharing a
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profound truth that
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SPEAKER_01: that we're created in the image of God.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's give ourselves to God and to the work of God,
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SPEAKER_01: which he has been articulating now for several years.
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SPEAKER_01: The work of God is to bring grace and compassion and mercy to people,
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SPEAKER_01: to love the vulnerable,
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SPEAKER_01: to feed the hungry,
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SPEAKER_01: to be inclusive,
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SPEAKER_01: which we saw in last week's story.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's give ourselves to God and to the work of God,
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SPEAKER_01: to the kingdom of God,
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SPEAKER_01: and let the empire worry about itself and do its own thing.
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So in that sense,
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it's not a story about us paying taxes,
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or maybe it is.
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Maybe Jesus is just saying,
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well,
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look,
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the government's got Lincoln's face on it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's got Washington's face on it.
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SPEAKER_01: So give it to them.
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SPEAKER_01: But don't give your soul to the empire.
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SPEAKER_01: Give your soul to the one who created you.
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So I guess in that sense,
18:33
there could be a political message there for us,
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right?
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: Do we give our souls to the empire right now?
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SPEAKER_01: Are we sold out to our political parties and their priorities,
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SPEAKER_01: or are we sold out to Jesus and his priorities?
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SPEAKER_01: And then as citizens of the government,
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do we try to figure out how to implement those values in ways
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that bring life to people?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So let me just say one more thing.
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What's interesting about this story is it brings together those
19:07
two symbolic actions.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: You've got the empire that Jesus took on in the Palm Sunday story,
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SPEAKER_01: and then you've got the faith community,
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SPEAKER_01: which he takes on in the story of the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: So these two things come together in that taxes question.
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SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, John.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:25
No,
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and I was just going to say,
19:27
just to be really clear,
19:28
who bears the image of God?
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: All of us do, right?
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: All of God's children bear the image of God.
19:37
And that's why you key in so much on image versus maybe some
19:41
other translations
19:42
SPEAKER_02: which might use slightly different language.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: Because elsewhere in Scripture, we talk about the image of God.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
19:51
it's a much better translation to say whose image is on this
19:54
coin because it makes
19:55
SPEAKER_01: far more sense.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: He said, well, whose head is on it?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Mine was likeness.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, likeness would work.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: It would be another way of saying image.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we're created in the likeness, the image of God.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of the reason why they're so amazed is
20:19
is because he weaseled out of it with a really profound answer
20:24
that I think the
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Pharisees and the Herodians would even agree with,
20:30
SPEAKER_01: which probably makes them all the more angry,
20:33
SPEAKER_01: right?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: When you, oh man, I agree with this guy.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Holy cow.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: So again, it's not so much about taxes, right?
20:49
SPEAKER_01: It's about allegiance.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Our allegiance is not first and foremost to the empire.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Our allegiance is first and foremost to the kingdom of God.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: As Christian people,
21:04
SPEAKER_01: we'll say people living in the United States of America,
21:06
SPEAKER_01: which is most of where listening comes from,
21:07
SPEAKER_01: but any country,
21:09
then our allegiance to the kingdom of God is expressed through
21:13
our engagement with God.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: the empire,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: the political systems,
21:20
and recognizing that sometimes there are things that we do for
21:25
the sake of the
21:26
SPEAKER_01: kingdom of God that we can do outside of political stuff.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: We can always donate to feeding the hungry and so on.
21:32
But there may be times when we're called upon to advocate for
21:36
certain laws that
21:38
SPEAKER_01: that would be more kingdom of God than they would be empire.
21:43
Laws that would take seriously the vulnerable and those who are
21:47
hurting and those
21:48
SPEAKER_01: who are oppressed,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: for example,
21:50
SPEAKER_01: that would fight against systems of racism and so on and so forth.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And in that case,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: our allegiance is still to the kingdom of God,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: but we know that we have to work through the system.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like pan taxes.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: We have to work through the system to make some of those things happen.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Got it.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: So, Tim, did he, I mean, I know he was God and man.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Did he know these questions were coming?
22:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, of him, like, I feel like when he said, why put me to the test?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: It was like, silly gooses.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing this?
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Bring me a coin.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, let me take, you know, like you, why would you test me?
22:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't think he knew.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: I think as God in the flesh, he was in the flesh.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: But he was living in the moment as we live.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: And again, he was human.
22:56
Um,
22:57
and,
22:57
uh,
22:58
so I think that,
23:00
you know,
23:00
when he,
23:00
he says,
23:01
why are you putting me to the test?
23:02
SPEAKER_01: He, he was basically calling them out.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Cause I know what you're doing.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: You're buttering me up right now, but I know what you're trying to do.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: You're trying to trap me.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: So, all right, I'm going to walk right into it.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: And, and then he does.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And of course he does it masterfully.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, oh my goodness.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:22
And again,
23:23
a part of,
23:24
for me,
23:25
you know,
23:25
when people say,
23:26
well,
23:26
how can you believe this stuff?
23:29
Well,
23:29
part of it is just because of the brilliance of what's
23:32
happening in these stories.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And how radical these stories are,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: even 2,000 years later,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: of the things that we wrestle with the most,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: love and compassion.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: and trying to navigate our way as people of faith in a political system,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: especially now that's so divided,
23:57
SPEAKER_01: so extreme on both sides.
24:00
And yet you got Jesus coming along and he just says something
24:04
so simple and yet so deep.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: You're the image of God.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: You're the image of God.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: So live like it.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: And help other people live like it.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And when you can...
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Use your influence to make a difference through the political systems.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Some of us are called to that more than others.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: But we're all citizens of the United States of America, for example.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And we should care that not to make it a Christian nation,
24:39
SPEAKER_01: but to make it a more compassionate,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: loving,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: gracious nation.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: recognizing that there are other faiths or other beliefs.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Yep, great, perfect.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: That's what the United States is about.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not a Christian nation.
24:51
But what does it mean to be the image of God in the United
24:54
States of America or in
24:55
SPEAKER_01: England or in Rwanda or in Australia or in whatever country it may be?
25:01
SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to be a Christian in that setting,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: to be the image of God in that setting,
25:06
SPEAKER_01: fighting for the things that Jesus cares deeply about?
25:11
which usually is the side of the vulnerable and the oppressed
25:14
and the least of these.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
25:19
SPEAKER_02: and we've touched on that a little bit before,
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Tim,
25:21
SPEAKER_02: and we won't probably have time to go into it in this podcast,
25:24
SPEAKER_02: but this is another example of,
25:29
as we all care deeply about the place that we live and it being
25:32
a place for our
25:33
SPEAKER_02: loved ones and future generations and all that,
25:36
SPEAKER_02: how do we balance that deep care and the passion to action that
25:44
while at the same time recognizing that we're the image of God
25:49
and what does that mean?
25:50
SPEAKER_02: And what is the priority of those things in our lives?
25:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: So that's great fodder for prayer, no doubt, especially now.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: And again,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: no easy answers,
26:04
SPEAKER_01: but regardless of where we are in our lives,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: whatever positions we have,
26:11
whether we're bankers or we are actors or we are school
26:15
teachers or we are coaches,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: if we're followers of Jesus,
26:21
how can I be the image of God through my calling in life and
26:28
reflect the image of
26:30
SPEAKER_01: God to the other images of God that I'm hanging out with?
26:34
Not being religious,
26:35
not being preachy,
26:38
but being the kind of person that people...
26:41
SPEAKER_01: feel better about themselves after having been with me,
26:44
SPEAKER_01: for example,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: or feel more hopeful or feel more loved or more appreciated.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Um,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: how can I use my role in life as a parent,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: a husband,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: a wife,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: a grandparent,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: uh,
27:01
to be the image of God and the image of God is to be one who
27:05
participates with God
27:06
SPEAKER_01: in the work of God.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what it means to be the image of God.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Um,
27:11
SPEAKER_01: And then there are times,
27:12
SPEAKER_01: again,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: not only doing it through my vocation or through my position in life,
27:17
SPEAKER_01: but in the way that I vote,
27:21
SPEAKER_01: the way that I think about how to vote.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And recognizing in our country, we have two choices.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: And neither one's going to be spectacularly Christian.
27:34
Neither one's going to be spectacularly compassionate because
27:37
it's always about power.
27:40
But then it's being able to say,
27:41
all right,
27:41
I'm going to choose the best that I can.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: But when my party gets it wrong,
27:46
I'm going to have the courage to stand up and say my party's
27:48
getting it wrong.
27:50
And that's part of what we're lacking right now in our
27:53
Christian world is the
27:55
courage to stand up to our own parties where we may think
27:59
they've got a lot right,
28:01
SPEAKER_01: but they can't get it all right because power can't get it all right.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And so render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: but man be the image of God,
28:12
SPEAKER_01: because that's where life is lived.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: And be the image of God in wherever it is that God has put you to be.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Now this one doesn't see,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: this story here,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: because Jesus is sort of hacking people off this whole week.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: That's why he ends up on the cross.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: This one doesn't really hack them off.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: It just says that they were amazed at him,
28:38
but there will be stories that come up over the next couple of
28:41
days of his last week,
28:42
SPEAKER_01: where increasingly they just say enough is enough with this guy,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: both the religious leaders,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: the religious elite and the political elite,
28:53
SPEAKER_01: because he's hacked them both off and they conspire together.
28:56
Power conspires together to use his power to destroy him and
29:02
spoiler alert,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: But we'll get there.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: We'll get there.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: We've got a few stories to go through.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: We've read ahead is what you're saying.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've read ahead.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: For those of you who haven't, we've read ahead.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: So don't give up hope.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not quite sure.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: I think probably the next time we get together,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: we'll look at a story of the widow and her offering.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: because it's just a fascinating story.
29:35
And then we're getting ever closer,
29:38
ever closer to that moment when Jesus is betrayed.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to spend probably several podcasts on all of that.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: So John, Terry, thank you as always for being a part.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Tim.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: And thank you listeners.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Look,
29:53
SPEAKER_01: if you're listening and you enjoy this podcast,
29:56
then one of the greatest gifts that you can do for all of us is
29:59
to share it with a friend.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Easy to do.
30:02
You can send them a link to the Substack where you're getting this.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: You can send them a link to the podcast itself.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: It's available on Apple and other places.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: Please share it with your friends.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: And we appreciate all the nice comments.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: And we hope that you have a good week.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: And we'll be back with you next time.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: We're going to continue our study of the Gospel of Mark.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Jesus getting closer to the cross.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, everybody.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: It will be, by the way, spoiler alert, episode number 50.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Now we're getting to the territory of John's age.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with you next time.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: In the North.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.