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When Did I Stop Being Curious? · The Pause Before You Lead

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the hardest part of curiosity is sometimes as a practice and as a mindset is to actually recognize how the ego, our own egos, can get in the way of staying in that place of curiosity.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Cause it can be hard when you feel like you're seeing something to go, I'm actually not going to make that fact, right?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm just going to try and stay present in this moment and not, oh, I know this.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: The way we shift out of presence with someone and into our own thinking and our own knowing and our own certainty.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, and welcome to the Pause Before You Lead.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Alicia Saint.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Heather Haig.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Together, we've both led teams inside large organizations.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And over the past decade, we've coached and partnered with hundreds of leaders and teams navigating complexity.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen, felt, heard, and supported leaders through the challenging and sometimes really messy parts of leadership.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: And while a lot has changed, many of the patterns that quietly take leaders off track just keep showing up.
• 1:23
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• 1:33
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• 1:42
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• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Each week, we bring you real conversations drawn from our work with leaders and teams.
• 1:56
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• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So in each episode, we're going to pause just long enough to think more clearly, to see what's really going on, make better decisions, and build high-value teams.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you're listening before the day takes over, on your way to work, or in the middle of a full day, this is your pause without losing momentum.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So before we begin, take a breath and join us.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Heather Haig.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Alicia St.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And this week we're exploring, I think, one of our maybe most talked-about topics in both our conversations with each other, Alicia, and in conversations with our clients, which is curiosity.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a thread that's been woven probably through every episode in some way.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And really noticing how curiosity is not an event.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking more about having a curious mindset.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can see you nodding.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: What's showing up for you?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just I'm just going back to this is sort of one of the almost fundamental things that, as you said, is a theme is woven in into almost all of the coaching with the leaders that I do, which is really cultivating that curious mindset.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and when you start to work with your leaders and they're preparing for that difficult conversation or they're preparing for a team meeting, right?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, okay, so what's those curious questions I should use again?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: What are those open-ended questions?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's on everyone's mind today?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you ask them, what's the mindset?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: What are you noticing as a mindset?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're, as you're saying that, and you're like, well, I'm still feel like I want to direct the call or I want to direct the meeting, or I want to, right?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or I've got a specific outcome I'm looking for.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm noticing in my mind it feels like this is slowing everything down.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we have time.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's gonna be too impatient.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you go, whoo, this is curiosity is not a one-time event.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you've got some examples.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's and I love how you framed that because when what I felt when you were talking about, you know, what are the curious questions I can ask?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I can actually see, I can think about conversations I've had where I almost move into expert mode and people will say, Well, what kinds of questions?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I start listing curious questions and I can see them writing them down.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And there's this piece of me, just as you said that, that I was like, oh man, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like I stepped out of curiosity myself in that moment.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And they are wanting to capture curiosity on paper.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: So they've got prepared questions, which, you know, in a in a lot of ways almost is like the opposite of being curious.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just it just strikes me as so interesting in this moment how our desire for getting things right gets in the way of a curiosity mindset, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: That there's like I need to, I need to ask the right curious questions.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Almost immediately says, like, are you even in growth mindset as you're thinking about curiosity?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm I'm like in this hyper-awareness uh moment where I go, wow, man, like my beliefs around curiosity may be fixed beliefs, even as we're exploring this together.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like curiosity needs to be here, insert definition here.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, how is that even maybe limiting my own way of operating as a curious leader?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you say curious mindset, it's a set of beliefs, it's an attitude, it's an approach, and it's practiced, it's cultivated, it's not something you just I have it or I don't have it, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um so if we were to do a contrast between a curi if curiosity isn't a one-time event, what would be some ways that we would offer?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and I love your expansiveness, it can be so many things.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I experience leaders wanting to help members of their team understand themselves more.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So so I want my team members to have more self-awareness, to have more social awareness, to have more self-management, maybe even, or be better at building relationships with other people.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: So they're these drivers of the wanting a specific outcome to happen that says, I need to be more curious to help them get to the place they need to get to.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that when we're focused on scripting, what are the best curious questions we could ask that get them to somewhere?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're already mapping a desired outcome that really is in conflict with, I have a certain set outcome destination I want to reach.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So what are the curious questions?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Curiosity being unattached, not knowing, being open to wherever a conversation might go.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yet you've got this fixed desired outcome.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I don't think it's it's a matter of ill intent.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the intention comes from such a good place.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know curiosity helps people discover things about themselves.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And do I know or believe I know something about someone and I want them to discover what I know?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that operating from a curious mindset?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or is that using curiosity to try and get a set outcome?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I can build on what that example you just used, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, let's let's play out that that person is getting feedback.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Your direct report is getting feedback that they're not um collaborative enough.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just picking something, right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so you come into this conversation.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you've had direct telling conversations before, which is we're getting feedback, need to be more collaborative, you need to share more information.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're a team that collaborates.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: We don't hold things close to our chest.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do the whole telling thing, and the employee goes, Yeah, yeah, I get it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, sure.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you want to try it from a curious mindset, because you're like, I'm now frustrated because this person doesn't seem to be getting it.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So then your next step becomes, okay, I'm gonna use curious questions into your point.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, in your head, you're like, this person just doesn't get it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what else I need to do.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying this thing.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'll try something different, but I'm not sure they're gonna get it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: My coach says that curious questions are better than telling.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:23
  unknown: Right.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got these links.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying that a little bit tongue in cheek because I'm like, I'm aware I likely have have suggested being more curious and perhaps are are uh missing the opportunity of like what if that person's truth is different from the thing you think that you need to fix or solve or adjust.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we to taking what you just said there was you take it from uh, I know this is what needs to change, to an assumption this might be what's going on, and there might be something else.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a curiosity that just got added.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Might be that, or it might there might be something else.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now you can hear yourself moving into more of a curious mindset.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's not just a question, you know, what's going on for you?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's what are you finding difficult here?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's what's getting in the way?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: What's getting in the way?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: What's making this hard for you, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: All great questions.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're just, you know, invite people to think about when you're asking that from a place that goes, they're just they're I'm not sure they can change.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure this person can change.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're just not collaborating.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you're asking those questions.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: As the person receiving that, I'm like, who is this person?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to my boss?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Who is this alien that just dropped into this conversation, right?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because it doesn't it it probably doesn't feel genuine.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably not coming across as genuine because it you are treating it as a one-off event.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think um when I ask curious questions, but I don't really feel a genuine curiosity to learn something from someone else, yeah, that there's something going on in me.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you're saying that the other person might be impacted in a way that feels disingenuous, or can I trust this?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is weird.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: But also the leader is kind of temporarily putting on a I'll be curious in this conversation versus a belief.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where I think growth mindset comes in that says there are many different ways of seeing something.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: There are many different truths that for each individual in this room feel like reality.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not to say any of them are wrong, because everyone's reality is painted with their own brush.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the curiosity that's that's broader and more growth-oriented says, how can we bring these different perspectives together in a way that helps us increase accountability, you know, uh uh opens the possibility for change, invites a different way of coming to something versus a I need to get someone somewhere to see this in a different way.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and just um and so knowing that, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing that a mindset first.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right, the mindset comes first, the question comes second.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and as you say that, I think, man, like, isn't that the hard part?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because even for myself, having spent a lot of time thinking about curiosity and working on my own curiosity and the recovering expert that I so often refer to myself, I'm I'm conscious of that that one word you used earlier, which is practice, that this is a practice, curiosity is a practice.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's something every day that you set an intention that says, How can I be more curious today?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that becomes part of their morning, sort of as they prep for the day.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a question along that line is how might I be more curious today?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: How might I show up as more curious today?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the flip side of that at the end of the day, how was I more curious today?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like what where did I show you?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Where did I show up?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Where did I notice my curiosity was present?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And where might I focus that attention tomorrow?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not in a critical judging way, but in a like I'm always learning and growing and stretching.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And there are certain people I find it really easy to be curious with.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes there are people that I find it harder to be curious with.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so the more I can understand myself and how that how that's showing up, um yeah, it's it, it is, it is one of those concepts that from a theoretical, I understand what curious curiosity is, but how do I live it in a way that people see my curiosity as a piece of my leadership, as a piece of how I operate versus a, oh, she's getting coached like I must, I must be getting some feedback here.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: She must have had a session session with her coach this week.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we're laughing because there's just a lightness to it, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is is um it does take practice and and just reminds me of clients coming back and going, well, that felt really awkward.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what was the outcome?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was actually better than I thought.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like you always tie your shoes the same way, and then you start to tie them a different way.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not going to feel comfortable at first.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So just bringing the lightness to it that it's not about, oh my God, I have to have this all figured out before I try and be curious.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, isn't that the isn't that like, isn't that in conflict right there?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: I have to have it all figured out before I can get curious.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Before I try being curious, before I try being curious, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: What's happening within you in this moment that's creating a, I need to get this right.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't get it right, I'll do this wrong.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And if I do it wrong, then it won't get the outcome that I'm wanting.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll look like I am not authentic or not genuine or right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the hardest part of curiosity is sometimes as a practice and as a mindset is to actually recognize how the ego, our own egos, can get in the way of staying in that place of curiosity.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because it can be hard when you feel like you're seeing something to go, I'm actually not going to make that fact, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm just going to try and stay present in this moment and not, oh, I know this.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: The way we shift out of presence with someone and into our own thinking and our own knowing and our own certainty.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's that ability for us to remind ourselves, like, come back to curiosity.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm noticing I'm a little less curious in this moment.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Noticing I I want to reach a destination in this conversation.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to know everything.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I probably don't know everything.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Even in the area of my expertise.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Things are changing all the time.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can't possibly know everything.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that attitude that, you know, what what what else might be here?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: What else might be possible?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: What else might be possible?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you're asking the the what if questions, which are bringing some lightness to it.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like like curiosity doesn't need to be heavy.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Curiosity can be light, uh open to possibility.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and really shifting from I'm curious, I need to be curious in I need to ask curious questions in this conversation to what does operating as a curious leader look like?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And this doesn't mean, by the way, if you're starting to feel as you're listening to this, oh my goodness, this means I need to be asking constant questions all the time to be a curious leader.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's to recognize, especially in this environment of wanting to collaborate, wanting to bring collective thinking with your team, wanting to bring people together, that that the curious leader uh shows up without arriving with a knowing and a certainty.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just says, I wonder where this conversation's gonna come.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with a pause.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with a pause to ask yourself, you know, where do I have a curious mindset, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Where else?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: None of us are perfect, it's not there all the time.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, and it's a practice.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's more to discover.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Always more to discover So So as we rap, don't forget to pause before you lead.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Before you lead.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have a curious week and we'll see you next time.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining the Pause Before You Lead.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation sparked something for you, share it.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because more leaders need space to think clearly in the moments that matter.
• 21:23
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• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: We shape these conversations for you.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Before you move on to what's next, pause just for a moment.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And notice what might change if you led from here.