Latest / In My Hometown / Motherhood After They Leave: Empty Nest, Identity & Letting Go | Dr. Joann Finkelstein

Transcript

Motherhood After They Leave: Empty Nest, Identity & Letting Go | Dr. Joann Finkelstein · In My Hometown

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: We spend nearly two decades raising our kids to become independent.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then they do exactly what they're supposed to do.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: They leave.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: So why can this time feel so destabilizing?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today understands this from both sides.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Dr.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Joanne Finkelstein, and she is a clinical psychologist, author of sexism and sensibility, and an expert on girls, women, and parenting.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And right now, she's also a mom going through the same thing herself as her daughter heads off to college.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're talking about empty nests, free birds, bird watching, whatever you call it.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's really what happens to us once our kids don't need us in the same way anymore.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Joanne, thank you for coming.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was a long intro to basically say, help me out.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you recently wrote, you have a wonderful Substack, and um, and you recently wrote that you found yourself researching tiny freezers and dorm storage in the middle, up in the middle of the night for your daughter who just went off to college.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: As a psychologist, did you know that this was there was something else at play?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just about finding the perfect tiny freezer.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it took me, it took me a couple of weeks, let's say, where I was really going down these storage rabbit holes.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when I started waking up in the middle of the night with like that, you know, existential question of whether it should be a hanging hamper or a floor hamper, I knew something was going on.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um So you didn't know right away.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't know right away.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know right away, but I was having big feelings about my daughter leaving for college, right?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: I say in that piece that I am not um, like I'm very loving, but I'm not very sentimental.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't the mom that cried at kindergarten get graduation or even high school graduation, but it was really hitting me over the summer that I was gonna miss this kid and my role as a mom.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so what do you what is happening as a clinical psychologist?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening to us mothers and and fathers?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to leave the dads out, although my husband isn't going through it as much, nearly as much as I am.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I think we spend so much time preparing our kids to leave the nest that we forget to prepare ourselves for the next chapter.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, so much of ourselves, especially as mothers, I mean, my husband is, I think, really missing my daughter, but it wasn't anticipatory in the way that mine was, because so much of my of my mental space is taken up by my kids.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very common for mothers, especially, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: To be the ones that keep everything in mind, that organize everything, that ask them if they remembered to take this or that.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did they, you know, uh and the medication.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I did an episode recently with a college doc.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, all I was thinking about for a month was this medic medicine kit that I was sending my daughter with.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, was my husband involved in that?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the practical pieces we're focused on, and then it sort of hits us like a ton of bricks.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so much easier to focus on like, what am I gonna put in this first aid kit than like, what am I gonna put in this missing place in my heart?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's let me just tell you, it cannot be filled.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So is it really actually grieving?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Are we going through grief?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think you can be thrilled for your child at the same time as your mourning, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is a loss of not just having them around, but uh of your it's a it's a not just their transition, it's our transition as um for our identities.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a new identity for us on some level.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're still moms, but we're learning how to uh uh parent adult kids.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And just as they're ready to like flee the nest and do everything that we have sort of set them up to do, right?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're experiencing a loss, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because all change is loss, even if it's good change.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: All change is loss.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I never really thought of it that way.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: But and so why are we so ill prepared for this?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: What could people be doing more of?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I guess we we I guess it's one of these things maybe we can't be.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: We just have to face it.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think it varies uh by person, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it depends how much of your identity or your time you sacrificed for uh bringing your children up.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so some people it might hit them harder than others.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't think there's very much we can do to um, you know, we're like everybody's like, what's it what's it what's the next chapter?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: What do you have going on?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we need to give ourselves grace and just be more uh curious about like, okay, well, what things did I used to love that I haven't done because I was so busy parenting, or um, you know, what have I postponed that I want to get back to?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's definitely so much, I think, pressure right now about figuring out what that next chapter could be.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to stay on sort of the part about um us the right now, as our role changes a little bit.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I've been talking to so many of my friends recently about this sort of different generation that we grew up with, um, where our parents, I mean, my mom, I talked to her, she doesn't even remember, she remembers me leaving, but she doesn't remember being upset really.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we, our generation, are so more upset about it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want to speak for everyone, but most of my friends.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and this idea that we're so not only our identity is wrapped up, but our whole life is wrapped up.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're much more involved in their lives.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it just do you do you see that as well?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I see it from, you know, just myself as a mother.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see it with the uh patients in my practice whose kids have left over the last few years.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I do think it's a generational thing.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually wondering recently, like, how did my mom experience this?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do think that we, you know, we have taken um, you know, mothering has become a verb, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting has become a verb.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a verb when our parents were bringing us up, right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was some, it was a role you had, but we have let it um take over our schedules, take over our minds.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also have, you know, maybe less help than they did because they may have had parents in the area, and many of us have, you know, flown and to other parts of the country or different countries, as in my case.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um so we had no choice but to be sort of more involved.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, that is interesting.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the I I love that you said mothering has become this verb.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do we move then?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do we ease this transition from moving to that mothering and sort of really taking care of them and knowing every decision they're making versus being there to help them and help guide them?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, our role, our job is not done.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's definitely done.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you you would say from a raising girls perspective, or at least I shouldn't say I know, from raising girls, it's not done.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: What is the difference between the advice we give them versus um and that role versus the the mothering that we were doing before?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I don't know about you, but for me, I I could text my daughter every day with, did you remember to do this?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna go to this um club event to, you know.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I might be doing that right now.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I could, I could be staring all day at the find my right, the black life 360.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, right.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a matter of of humility and just being able to say, she's gonna figure this out.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have set her up well enough.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: She has shown me that she can do this.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a matter of like holding back a little bit.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the other piece I'd like to say is that there's also like a real liberation, right?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just grief, right?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's also this liberation that I think many of uh many parents feel.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm feeling it, like you know, somebody asked me last night, so what's it like?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like devastating and amazing because I feel like so much time has opened up, and it's too soon to know if that's really true.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we carry such um an incredible mental load as mothers of children that knowing that they're there and that they can do this and letting them do that frees us up to, you know, from in my case, to have so much more space to write um and to do whatever other things I've been I've been out like every night in the last few days.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like so there is a way in which like I'm also finding the joy in it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, as I like miss her terribly and have to find myself like sitting on my hands so I don't text her, or you know, when she when she asks me um a question.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, I just lost my train of thought.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think too that there is a freedom in it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm it's only been, it's I think three weeks and a day and a couple hours.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just gonna say it's it's been it hasn't been long enough yet for me to really know um how I'm gonna feel.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I I could see the light, I could see this sense of this new sort of new normal as we're calling it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Last night I was watching uh TV with my husband and we were like, wow, like this is this is what this is.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And because we've sort of been running around a lot.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now it has been that, but we are still we're dropping everything when uh my daughter, who's a freshman, she calls us.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and then my other one, we're going through transition because she just started a new job.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So she'd graduated college and now starting a new job.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So these are these big transitions.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I don't want to say that I'm waiting for them to call me so I could help them solve problems, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna admit, I'm gonna admit something vulnerable.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I do feel like that a little bit.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: That when a day goes by and I don't get some of these calls, like mom, what do I do about this?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then I've had a little bit of a loss feeling.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't want to admit it, but I they but I'm recognizing it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, Jamie.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize I mean, okay, when when my when we dropped my daughter off, we went um to my brother's place, which is not, you know, which is a couple hours away.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we didn't hear anything from her.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was glued to find my for a couple of days.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this panic reaction that, oh my God, what if this is it?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: What if I never hear from her again and she's just so psyched to be gone.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I got the inevitable call that says, I'm in the middle of doing laundry, but it's not a front loader like I'm used to.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a top loader.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I put the stuff?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, she still needs to be.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, Joanne, we went through the same exact thing then.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that is normal.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's so normal.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, actually, my older daughter called last night on her way home from work and the coolant light had gone on.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we FaceTimed and she was going to the gas station and she opened, was able to open the top of the hood.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually the the real word is called the hood of your car, not the top.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And she filled her own coolant in it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we were just so, yes, we were on FaceTime, but I think it was like a step.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I hear you.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we want them to be independent.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you are the author of an amazing book called Sexism and Sensibility.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to be raising these empowered women and uh young women.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea that the more you jump in, the more it might take away some of their agency, their independence, their confidence.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because when they do call, I do want to solve the problem.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: What should I be saying?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I don't think there's one right way to do things.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what I should say.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's an overarching belief that they will figure this out.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And letting them know that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And sure, you can give some suggestions, but you're not getting on the phone with the school and figuring it out for them unless there's a real crisis.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're reminding them.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let me write that down.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're reminding them that they got to this place because of how capable they are.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that's the funny thing about parenting, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: If we do it well, yeah, then we then we um we aren't needed as much.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, right.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're out of a job.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're kind of out of a job.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, oh, okay, well, what's what's my job now?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm used to being needed like all the time.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so as we move into this sort of new phase, this new chapter to be, you know, cliche about it, but you know, there is this pressure we talked about before about finding something, I think, um, and and sort of uh and creating this new space.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And with that comes some changes to our friendships and other changes that go on.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel a difference already with some of your friendships with with your um with your girlfriends?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I feel like um I'm having more time to think about them.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, again, it's only it's been less than a month, but a feeling like I'm gonna need them more.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yes.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I said, I have been much more social in the last couple of weeks because I do feel this sense of freedom.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, the way I set up my life was to be there as much for as my kids to be around whenever my kids were around.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they wanted to talk, you know, as teenagers, I'm gonna drop stuff and talk.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or if I'm downstairs working in the basement and I hear them come home from school, I go upstairs so I can be around for snack time and listen to their day.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in terms of friendships, yeah, it just makes more time for them.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh what I did was go away to a friend's cottage with two moms that had already launched their kids and two and and me, sorry, and me and another mom who were j just launching a kid.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we had this great like little support group.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I do feel like in the past year, uh my community of friends, I think we all were, most of them were in the same boat.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we dropped our when we dropped a plan to be with our kids, I think we all understood it for the most part.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I think we were, like I said, we were all in that boat.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so we felt like you could do that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I did feel bad on a number of occasions.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you'd go dark when uh my daughter when my daughter was around.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but I think I I I think there's like a new dawn almost, I feel, uh, with these friendships that we can reconnect and re-engage in a way that I just haven't had the mind space and um literally the the the wherewithal to to see them.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and so I'm looking forward, I'm looking forward to that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do we um also think that we have taught our daughters about motherhood um that they watch that is that is good and some things that maybe we should watch out for now?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: You mean in terms of their relationships going forward?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or our relationship with um with them that they could um then sort of take on sort of the connection that we have with them.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do we how do we remain close, but also give them the space and gives our give ourselves that space.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think a big part of it is, you know, conveying that you believe in them, that they are that you're there for them whenever, but that you you kind of get right now that it's on their terms.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: They are uh doing so much adjusting.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: We want to hear like what's going on, what's going on, give me details.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so they might check in, right?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: What I hear from from every single friend that who has a kid in college is you're like, so how's it going?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or how was last night?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: How was the the thing last night?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, good, fine, right, right.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think really uh really understanding, really absorbing that this transition is it's big for us, it's huge for them.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: They are meeting so many people, they're finding different parts of themselves, they're getting used to probably more homework than they've ever had in their lives.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think the social part is just one aspect, yes, certainly the pressure of sort of the real reason that they're in college.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Although they're in college, I think, from to get uh to grow, to grow more, and that is on a social um sense.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to take a little bit of a step to the side and just talk a little bit about your book and um how that came about.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a mother of two girls, and so it's definitely interesting to me.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that one of the um reviews or comments was Lisa Damore.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's the author of um a couple of books that I was they were my Bibles um when I when my girls were younger.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit of how how you how you came up with sexism and sensibility, by the way.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: The title I just absolutely love and what you learned as you were writing it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll just tell you a funny Lisa Demore anecdote first is that one was one of her books, um Untangled and the emotional lives of teens.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so she um was asked to blurb my book, and you don't know if somebody's gonna say yes or not.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the way I found out, I was back home in Montreal.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was surrounded by my family, and I get this email, and the subject is, I love your book so much in capitals.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: That must have been and then this incredible, like talking about my book, and then the blurb, and I was like, oh my gosh, I could die now.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I really admire her and to have her love the book and somebody who reaches parents, it was, you know, it was very moving.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it came about because it's sort of the book that's been in me since I'm six.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, since I'm very young.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think I um grew up with three brothers, and I just experienced real differences in how my parents treated us, in the expectations they had for us.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: My my mother was actually really um showed a lot of quality when it came to what she expected from the boys.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: They had to do outside chores and inside chores.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: They had to do the dishes like it was, but for me, it I was much more, I was treated much more like I was delicate and you weren't mowing the lawn.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was not mowing the lawn.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was just, you know, feeling interrupted a lot just because we know boys because we know girls get interrupted far more than boys do by both men and women.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very hyper-aware of all of these differences.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a kid, and I was like, or I had two kids, right?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I had a boy first, then a girl, and I was like, okay, well, how do I teach them about this?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there was literally not a book on the shelf that I could find.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do you talk to kids about sexism and privilege without scaring them or making them feel guilty?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided, you know what, I think I need to write this book.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what um, so I mean, there's just a lot of territory.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have safety, you talk a lot about that, you talk a lot about again how um, you know, we behave and and how we're we're treated.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what has been the most stereotype?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, everything, but what what do you hear about from others the most in within the book?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: What resonates the most with them?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, it's called raising empowered resilient girls in the modern world.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really found out from readers is that it's for people that have daughters and people that, you know, are educating and who love girls, but it's also for you if you were once a girl.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like so many, it's been so gratifying to have so many um readers say, like, oh, this resonated with me my whole life, and it explains so much of how I react in the world and how I feel about myself, because the sort of very underlying stereotypes and uh gendered biases that are very subtle, like they really, really, truly affect our identities and our self esteem, our sense of self.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted um parents to go into their journey of raising their daughters with the full month.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like of everything that that is out there that their daughters are encountering and how, most importantly, how to fight back against that, how to set your girls up to not internalize though that sort of misogyny.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's super hard.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we're fighting too is unfortunately so many people that think that it doesn't exist anymore, or that it's it's you know, we've eradicated it, or you know, there's at work that it doesn't, you know, just doesn't happen.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that it does, even if it's not as overt in a way, it's still sort of there, the subtext of things about what we're wearing.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean, I one time had, this is many years ago, but I had a conversation with someone in my office, a man, and he was talking about how we needed to really lubricate the issue.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to this day, I still feel that that while the word is appropriate in a sense, you know, I you could see why it would be the, you know, what he was trying to say, but it was so inappropriate to say to me as a, you know, what if I was 25 or whatever I was, alone in a in an office talking to him, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean it's used more mostly in a sexual context.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it just shouldn't even be in a conversation at work.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And would you ever, in a in a room full of five people, use that word in a work context?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I truly believe that it was done in a way, there was something about the use of it in that conversation.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of a power dynamic.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted to see how you would react or if he could make you feel like that.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many stories which I would never even tell.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: One of my friends tells the story of being pulled onto a lap of someone, of a, of a man.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, this is 30 years ago probably, but still.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's happened, you know, my daughter was just those were normal, those are everyday things that were happening.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter was just telling me a story of um being at a trying to like she, you know, at being at at sort of this gathering that had like family members and all different kinds of people, and somebody saying, I have never seen someone so tall and so beautiful in a tone like that.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just creepy and feels bad.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of stuff is happening all the time.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but also to like all the time.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and like people can't just be in like women, girls can't just be in the world.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're always sort of defending against those kinds of things.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're seeing not to be political in any way, but it's just it's fact.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: We saw we see Trump on a daily basis call Caitlin Collins pretty or beautiful, and that she should smile more.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be told that a lot when I was in my 20s, just to smile, you know.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's not and he on the other hand is calling somebody piggy and right.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like on the other, right.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And some people don't think that any of that matters, but we're saying it really does.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also not like it is so much of what we're talking about, but it's also mind-boggling that people think that like we've reached equality.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like all you have to do is look at the statistics.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: All you have to do is look at how many um uh, you know, rapists are never convicted, never get any, you know, uh victims of sexual violence, never get right, very, very rarely get any sort of justice.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: All you have to do is look at like who are the main people in movies?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Men, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Who like any any sing almost every single field, right, is dominated by men.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like we're not anywhere close.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're not anywhere close.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are so yeah.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've gotten, I mean, things have moved and things are getting better.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And there's all this backlash happening right now.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not anywhere close.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I I would be remiss if I didn't just um give a shout out to Gloria Steinem, who passed away, you know, this month, and just um all the work that that she did, and even that some of that got um, you know, um hazy at some point about how it was being um, you know, in today's in today's lens, how that was being looked at.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: But we won't go, that's for a conversation of another person.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do that next time.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Next pod.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I'd love to sort of talk a little bit about, but the still connected is again this this not so much sexism, but the well, the safety aspect too of of our girls as they go to of our of our children as they go to college.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So do you with your daughter going to school versus your son?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned your son's older.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, was there a different are there different conversations that you're having with her about school and what she should be looking out for?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think um sometimes the sort of gendered stuff that happens and the ways that we have to um look out for our daughters can be seen as maternal overprotectiveness rather than like what is really going on in the world and happening to girls, especially young women, um, who sort of fit that, you know, like youthful and pretty and whatever traditional, you know, we know what's coming for them.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, you know, for instance, something I um I was I told my daughter, and I should have told my son too, but I it didn't occur to me at the time was the red zone, right?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that 50% of sexual assaults happen in the first three months of college.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I we okay, I did not know this.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I'm not surprised yet.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but it's because, you know, people are like, but why?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: People are more vulnerable, they're lonely, they're drinking more, they're taking um pathways, they don't know yet know their way around school, so they're taking pathways that are maybe less safe.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and uh there's all kinds of reasons, but that it's a fact.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was something like I needed to tell her.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I wrote a whole substack on advice for my daughter, and a big portion of it was the safety piece, which was, you know, don't be polite if somebody's making you uncomfortable, right?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because your safety is more important than their comfort.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you feel like you're being harassed or followed, go feral, go not scream, act erratic, because that scares people and they are gonna, they don't want a victim that is either crazy or going to fight back, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, make eye contact, walk with purpose, even if you don't feel it.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm telling her all of these things that, you know, I've told my son other things, but no, I I did not worry for his safety in the same way.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have a really great one pager.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'd suggest anyone who's listening and or watching this to check that out, where you have all of these tips um and um I and advice uh around that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's great.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, certainly for for uh, you know, the young men, it it there's there is stuff uh as well to have conversations about, um, which is about the consent and all of that that has to go in that you probably we didn't have to discuss, you know, years and years ago.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Although probably should have been.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: We should have been, but we didn't know too.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, that's good.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a lot of times when I say to my girls things, they're like, Mom, I got it, I got it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like I have to I I don't we can't say it enough.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: It still happens all the time.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: They yeah, you know what?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter if they say they've got it, you know, and and they do intellectually, but the more that you can have conversations about it, the more you can say your piece and hear their reflections on it, the more they're gonna absorb it and be able to act in the moment if they need to.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, because you know, knowing it intellectually and then actually having to put it into practice are two different things.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so often women do not, and young women don't want to um seem like we're calling someone out for something, is like you said, and we are so worried about um seemingly, you know, that we're chill that you could get yourself into some situations.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm still like that, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're so conditioned to make other people comfortable and to be nice.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's some good advice.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I also remember seeing something about like the um with sorority rush, the bid day and that night where they all go out, um, that there's also a lot of um, you know, sexual assaults that happen that because they're just drinking so much.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just told my daughter that the other day and she was like, Mom, and but it's true.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope these sororities uh, you know, have girls that are out watching them and that they all know to stay with their friends.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's another safety tip, right?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like never leave behind a friend.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And never leave on your own.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yes.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully all of our kids listen to all of this and know this.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do our daughters benefit from seeing us?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just you know, pivoting again back to um this empty nest idea.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so many of my friends have told me they don't like the empty nest.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be called free birds or bird watchers.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love it all.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm still in empty nest mode right now, but I'm maybe gonna be free bird soon and the mindset of it.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: But how much do do our uh children and especially our girls benefit from seeing us sort of move on quickly through this phase?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm certainly not crying with my, I'm not crying to my daughter on the phone.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't know that I am crawling, I'm curled up in a ball.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just I am not.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm a kid.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how much do they benefit from that?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a great question.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know sort of what the research is on it, but as a mom and a psychologist, I think.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll give you an example.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I my daughter read my Substack about the tiny freezers.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And she and she said to me, Mom, I read it, it was really cute.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what it did was give her empathy because before that she was kind of like, eh, whatever, you're gonna be fine.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna but what it did is because in it I say, like, this is my thing to deal with, not her thing, but I am having all these feelings, and here's how it's coming out.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she so I think being able to communicate both like, I'm so sad and I really miss you, and I'm okay.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I and I'm having some fun.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even realize I was gonna have is is like fantastic and will help them also like let go, especially for the ones that are worried about you or are holding on themselves and are having trouble adjusting.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, kids right, there's so much difference.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um that they can be reminded that we're human.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, my girls are amazing, but I think occasionally they may forget that I'm a person and not just mom.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a woman named mom.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: We that's we always joke that that should be my my memoir, a woman named mom.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um that would be a good memo, actually.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you know?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that just this idea that I am not just sitting here waiting.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, my older one, she'll call from work and she'll get upset when she sees that I'm working on the podcast and that I'm focused on something.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And she says, Call me when you're done and you have time.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I should drop everything, but I think it's also good for her to see that I am uh sometimes busy and I have a focus.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't do it just to show it to her, but you know, no, yes.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I mean, in terms of having a life, even while they're growing up, I think it's so important because we want them to grow up and have a life too.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And not outside their their nuclear family if that's what they end up having, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so important to not give up all of yourself, even as parenting, the verb, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Takes so much of us and and we give it joyfully.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: But we also like have to have we have to have these other parts of ourselves.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what advice?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um my final question is really what advice do you have for um these new moms or parents that are finding themselves uh with their empty nest and how um, you know, how they can move on and what's next.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say find other empty nesters slash freebirders um and talk to them about how you're feeling, talk to your therapist, yeah.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um give give a c give a call to people who have already launched their kids and been through this, and just you know, give yourself grace.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're going through ups and downs, and it's hard, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are we're we're in transition right now.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: We are in transition right now, and we will get to the other side uh and it's great, and let's all hold hands on this bridge.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more with you about the friends that have gone, have launched already with or launched their kids.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I like to hang out with them and sort of see that they're still have these great relationships with the kids.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't end and their spouses and yes, exactly.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we're on a good um this this transition change happens, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: The only constant is change, as my mom always says to me.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we're still mothers, right?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just we're we're having to learn to mother in a different way.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I love that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'll let that be our final um comment.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been so amazing having you here.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was a fun, fun conversation.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So subscribe, uh, of course, to the podcast.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Check out sexism and sensibility.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's available on Amazon.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh your Substack is called Raising Her Voice.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Raising Her Voice.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Super.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time when you're in my hometown.