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Collin Gosselin Vs. Kate the Original Karen · Nurtural Disasters

• Intro: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters of Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey Ken Ken: What's up? Lisa: well, I just finished Colin Goslin's new book, In the Shadow of Eight. it was an audiobook, obviously. you know, because I'm addicted to audiobooks, but it was really good and I had the day off, so I was able to finish the book. instead of like my little iPods being like, yeah, listening and doing my errands and whatever. Ken: Wait, you still have an iPod? Lisa: What do you mean? So Ken: You still have an iPod? Lisa: Yeah, why? Ken: They haven't made those in years. Lisa: No, not iPod, the earbuds. Ken: air pods. Lisa: Air my god. I told you I'm not good with technology. I'm like a fucking boomer when it comes to technology. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: wow, okay. All right, bye. Okay, over. Ken: Okay, continue. Lisa: Okay. so yeah, so I finished the the audiobook. Really good. You know, it reminded me of A Child Called It. I don't know if you ever read that book or heard of it. Ken: I have not. Lisa: Really? when I was in high school I read it, I think it was like I think freshman. And it was really good. It was a trilogy actually in David Pelzer. But the first one was good. The second one, a man named Dave, I think that was the third one, Lost Boy, whatever. The first one a chuck called it, it was huge. it was very similar to that, I just wanna say. It reminded me a lot of that. And it was so heartbreaking, Ken. It is very sad to listen to and you feel like so many times where he just talks about he just breaks down and Kate Gosselin that Karen. She was the OG Karen, right? Ken: Well, she had the haircut and stuff like that. I guess we if you w guys if Lisa you wanna dive deeper into more details of w why Colin Gosslin wrote a tell all book about his relationship with his mother mostly. Lisa: Well, here's the thing. Okay, the whole Karen thing, I just wanna get this out of the way first. Okay. This is really weird. Because you know the h the that haircut that she had, it was the Karen cut. And I Ken: Yes. I think she I think she was like one of the first popularized at haircut, I feel like. Lisa: See that see, that's thing. I was wondering, was the chicken and the egg with the the Karen cut? Well, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: from what he said and when I was reading the memoir or listening to it, I actually had to pause because I'm going out of order, but like I was to go chronologically of his book. So when TLC they hired Kate and the whole family to be on the show. They give her a makeover. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: So he said that like before she had the I guess the TLC makeover, she looked she was like a brunette he said you could go to a grocery store and she'd be like a regular brunette mom. Like you would never recognize her. But TLC decided to give her a spray tan and the fake white teeth, maybe super white teeth and it was intentional. I didn't know that. Like they they made her blonde to make her more T V friendly, I guess that's a glow up. But they intentionally made it like the Karen cut and Ken: so they purposely made that cut. Like they purposely styled her hair like that. Lisa: Yeah. and yeah, the g it's funny because I was listening to it when he said that I had literally had to s like pause on my phone. I'm like, wait a minute. So this is the origin of the Karen cut. You know, I I didn't know. I thought a Karen thing and everyone had the cut. I don't know, chicken and the egg, like I said. But they gave her that weird cut, you know, very short Karen. I I'm not good at describing it. Business with part in the back. No, that's the mullet. Whatever. So anyway, so I guess she started that. Well, actually TLC was the originator of the Karen Cut. How funny enough. And I guess what happened was that, you know, Kate on the show, she was super controlling, just mean to her certain kids. she had her favorites, and I think a lot of Karen's, you know, people with that personality style, they saw her on TV and they're like, she represents me. And they got that cut. And it's like that entitled white woman wants to speak to the manager. Like, so that was the origin of it. And now we know now I I figured it out just from listening to his to his memoir. So that's weird, right? Just so weird. Ken: Well yeah, it's it' bec it's because if you've seen her recently, like she just has like straight, blonde hair. Like it's just long blonde hair. Like she doesn't have that anymore, so she dished it like soon after the show, so Lisa: th those are the extensions that she got. He talks about that. So after Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she and John separated, they were trying to rebrand her again. So they gave her the long blonde extensions. So they're like, this is the new Kate. After she and John separated, I guess. See, here's the thing. I did not watch the show. Okay? I know you said you watched it. Ken: Mm-hmm. I used to watch it. it was more, reality shoes show at the time. Even now it's just it's kind of just you put it in the background and see what's going on. Like I wasn't super invested in it. I knew it was like, man, it it seems a little even back then I'm like, what happens? I would I'm like waiting for the kids to grow up to see what I say about the parents and Apparently that was true. Like I was watching, I like, there has to be something wrong here. and even so, I remember a couple of years after that show, I remember Law and Order did an episode kind of based on that, except it was about I guess like it was about a character played by Jim Gaffigan, who's like a stand up comedian, and he has he's trying to pitch a T V show. with like eight of his children or something like that. It was like that sounds a little familiar. I think it but in that case, I think you I think there were like foster parents. So it wasn't exactly like it. But I I with like Law and Order and stuff like that and especially Law and Order SVU, they they pluck from like real life kind of like situations. They like dress it up, but but they change the names. But it's it's I was like, I think that's it. So that I remember by that point it was something that was like It's more of a spectacle than anything else. It was people probably watching the show, but I think a lot of it was people were probably thinking, What's underneath what they're filming, right? Likely not good. Lisa: See, the thing is, when it was airing at that time, was it late two thousands, people who love this show, I think they watched it because they're like, She's such a good mom, how does she do it with all those kids? And it was that kind of mentality. And I for me it wasn't really my thing. So I to me I was like, whatever. I did notice the one thing I did notice was you know those supermarket tabloids were like back in the day, the Us Weeklies and stuff. I was at the supermarket. Ken: It's it by the way, Us Weekly is still a thing 'cause I think they Lisa: is it? Ken: inter they inter they're even I think interviewed Colin for like a short thing after his book. So us weekly still a thing. So Lisa: because everything's so digital now. It's mm and Yeah, Ken: You all it's on digital form, Matt. Lisa: digital form. Yeah, right. So I do remember was as at the supermarket and you know you see the tabloids and on the cover it was Kate and it shows her like spanking one of her daughters and the daughters like you can see her scre like crying, screaming. And I thought this the the people revere this person. Like she's abusing her kid. Like And I don't know if it was in front of the cameras or like someone had like a paparazzi shot. I guess it a paparazzi shot. But it's one of those like, if you do that on camera, what do you do in private? Or if you do that in public, imagine what they do in private kind of a situation. So it didn't sit with me. it wasn't till like years later, you know, especially when I was researching for this particular episode and reading his book and watching interviews, People talking about like I the the the clips that I saw, she was very controlling. The way she ema constantly emasculated her husband. the way it's like, You're breathing too loud. That's like the most famous one that everyone loves to quote. He's like, You're breathing too loud, she tells her husband. And he's just like, I'm just sit literally sitting here. you know, constantly having to cut him down. Yeah, obviously he he There's no no no shit that they broke up because he probably got so fed up her constant verbal abuse. But what she was doing to Colin was fucking horrific. And reading his book, it it broke my heart. It it was really, really sad and I hope you get to read it one time and so so I wanna start with this from like For my notes for before I have for this episode. It's like it reminded me when we did the Hayden Pinateer episode. remember when I was talking about how, like, you know, most stage moms are narcissists. And th this just pretty much proves my point, right? It supports my theory of the most stage moms are just they're in it, they're living vicariously through their kids. They don't give a fuck about their kids, just like Hayden Pinateer's mom Leslie. And things got really bad because Colin was the scapegoat child. He did not want to perform for the cameras. I you could tell he was the clips that I saw, he he seems so sad. I don't know if you said pictures of the videos of him. He looks he has this such a so sad, you just want to give him a little hug because she singled him out because he well, you know, from the Jay Shetty podcast that you saw. she didn't want him influencing the rest of the kids about not being in front of the camera. So I wanted to ask you, Ken. There's things that he said about it that's very common with narcissistic parents, where it's like Kate would tell him, it's like smile, you know, with the gritted teeth, like smile, fix your face, you know, if they see you kind of like upset. did your dad ever do that? Ken: not smile, but you know, the typical don't don't look all like kinda grumpy faced. I remember my parents would tell me that, stand up straight, stuff like that. I think that's quite common. Yeah, so I I think when you said that people saw her as an ideal mom, I don't think a lot of people like that saw it that show at least from the periphery or at least were skeptical about how these two parents could manage that many children and still have any sort of normalcy in kind of like their life. I think a lot of people saw that and probably thought the same way as I did. I thought What are they covering? What is the camera not showing? And I always thought there has to be a s a couple of the kids that don't like fall in line, right? Because they're all like young children. There has to be one or two that's not falling in line. And there's gotta be stuff that they refilm and things they cut. And I'm like thinking it's like, which one of these kids is getting the worst of it? I think after a while it it I guess you If you could watch the show in hindsight, which I wa have watched a little bit of it in hindsight after this came out. And if you like if you watch it in hindsight, I was like, that there's something right there. That's something o off with her and her son. A little bit. It's kinda like a little labored. But when you're watching it like within the show, you're just thinking, Okay. Well, the sh the can especially reality shows, camera always catches something a little bit more interesting, right? There's more to meet the eye, if something doesn't Film right, they'll just refilm it. The law of reality show is just they're refilming things, it's not really real. It's real-ish. But they're trying to frame a narrative here when they're doing a reality show. so I could understand, like, how old was he when it started? Like I think he mentioned it was like Lisa: It was like Ken: I think he mentioned that he was around what, two or three? Lisa: I think he was three years old, I believe. Ken: That's that's ridiculous because did I ever tell you the story about how about one of my birthdays and I was in the backseat and I mentioned how my cousin had more gifts than me during our party and then my parents just yelled at me. Just think about it, like they're probably the mom is probably laying into him being a two or three year old. You're supposed to know this stuff. It's like, no, you're a kid. To expect Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: your kid to say a certain thing being that young of age, that's ridiculous. Like she is a ridiculously demanding of Colin, if that's the case. Lisa: Yes, well, yeah. Ken: I think yeah, it's it's it's not you're it's not like you're dealing with a teenager that's not falling in line or even like an older kid that's not falling in line. Like you could reason with them. A two to three year old, you're lucky if they're what listens to some of your commands, right? You're lucky if they don't freaking electrocute themselves or something or set something on fire if they get the access to it. You're lucky that two to three year olds are, walking around saying stuff, you know. Clumsy enough not to be able to like grab things like knives and stuff like that. You you I think I think for her to demand him act a certain way and be mad that he doesn't fall in line for being a two to three year old, that's really irrational. And s people should really look at that. To demand that out of your children, that's insane. That's it that's insane. Def the definition of insanity. Lisa: Yeah, and I no okay, this is weird, but there was like some similarities between Kate and my mom because he talks about like her being Ken: Do do Lisa: cold. That there's a coldness, right, where he doesn't remember her like having mom hugs where, you know, when you drop the kids off at school, There was like there was no mom hugs where he would see the other kids being dropped off, and it's like, have a good day, and their parents give him a hug and kiss. It was just like get out kind of a thing. Not she wouldn't say that, but it was is pretty much tacitly like get out, And well, my mom was pretty much like that, but in a different situation where like I the you know the thing about my mom, she wasn't controlling like Kate. But it was more like she was more of the ignoring narcissist mom because I I would have to wake her up to take me to school. So I was always late to take I was always late. Ken: Well yeah. Well well we were what we mentioned we talked about anybody that's listening to our podcast knows this thing about your mom is she's kinda lazy. She's very lazy. Lisa: Super lazy. Kind of. She's very lazy. Ken: The only reason she even does anything is out of spite. So think about that. Lisa: Yeah, that's her only fuel. Yeah, that's that's what fuels her to like get yeah, to get out of bed. But like yeah, I have to wake her up. Yeah, so I was always late and the teachers would get mad at me. But I was like, it's not my fault. I I tried really hard. But anyway, but you know what the most ironic thing about me? Perfect attendance. Like I I wasn't perfect attendance because when she did wake up, like She didn't want to take care of me in the house. So she just like, fine, I'm gonna send you to school. And then and there were times where I was like really, really sick. And I was like, I can't go to school. I I'm like, I'm literally having a fever, I'm shivering. Like, no, you're going to school. So then I would go to school and the teacher would be like, You're going to the nurse. And then I would go to the nurse. And the nurse is like, Why are you here? It's like she would take my temperature, it's like, you need to go to the doctor. Like, you can't be here. And then they would call my mom. And I'd have to be sent home. And then she'd get mad that she had to pick me up because I was really sick. But like I guess she would just just be like, Well, you don't have a fever. Well, I feel s really sick. It's like, well, if you don't have a fever, then you're not like in her mind, if you're only sick if you have a fever. But I guess I was like working my way towards it, or maybe a slight fever. I don't remember. It was a weird situation. But I guess with Colin well, Kate. was more like she was very strict, right? She had like, you can only eat this and this and this and this and this. Where it's one extreme of narcissism versus another extreme of narcissism, right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: like to the point where she wouldn't allow them to have any sugar, even though she had a gumball machine in her own bedroom and was addicted to like gumball machine gumballs, like just constantly training on them. But our kids were not allowed to have any sugar. Ken: Who k that that's the weirdest thing, right? Yeah, it's like yeah, the the gumball the gumball thing. Why? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: It it it's the weird, strangest things. Because I'm not sure if you had a gumball in recent memory, like not not being a kid and having a gumball. Cause really adults don't eat gumballs. Yeah, and they're really big. They're really big. Where it's like Lisa: They're really hard, right? It's like they're really b big. Yeah. So you're just kinda like you look like a cow, kinda like right? Ken: So it I could just imagine her was like, this is my treat. Really? Yeah, it's I'm I'm pretty sure she called Colin fat too. It's like, Well that's really how old's your kid are you calling him fat? Lisa: Well, the thing is they weren't allowed to have sugar, but this Ken: Yeah, so she's a prototypical almond mom. Lisa: I mean yeah. It is Ken: Well, just recently with a TikTok, like they they would just mention, this is this person's a almond mom, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: well, back in the day it's be a health food mom. now it's called almond mom, where everything in the pantry has to be some sort of like you know, has to be like Whole Foods or something like that, or multi-grain. And of course almonds because almonds are healthy. but yeah, Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it's like no candy, no anything, nothing to mm, you know, the joys of being a child. No french fries, no anything like that. It's like it it's like imposing your your health food food diet on your children. And that's an almond mom. Lisa: Yeah, what's r actually for a lot of times I mean, invariably it's a cover for their own eating disorder Ken: Eating disorder. Lisa: and they impose it on their children and of course the children grow up resentful. So Ken: Yeah, you try not having any snacks. I don't know any kid that'd be like, wait, no snacks? And then they figure out picket was it their their k was it their classmates because like wait, you get like fruit roll ups. Back then it was like fruit roll ups and like just Cheetos. Can you imagine if your parents didn't buy any of that? Like you just Of course you resent your parents. Lisa: Yeah, and he talks about in the book how even though she was very strict about the food, so the crew would come in and they thought it would be a nice gesture to bring donuts and cupcakes and whatever. Colin remembers one he talks about one time where they brought donuts, right? You know, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: the crew would come in and they're like, these it it was a nice gesture. And because He just ate one and he's like, my god, this is so good that it did he did not stop at one. Maybe he had like five. I don't remember how many he said, but he did get sick. I mean Ken: I know. I I know donuts are really good. Like I like I really like donuts. I know they're terrible for you, but they're pure sugar and like just dough. There's n fried dough is that's like Lisa: It's deep fried dough sugary yeah. Ken: Yeah, it d here's the thing, it's like if you ever had like a Krispy Kreme and it just like melts in your mouth, it's like I wanna have another one and another one. You could easily eat half a dozen if you just sit there. Yeah, you don't even have to be a donut fan. Donuts are just good. Lisa: I I'm not a Krispy Kreme fan. It's just No, no. I I d Krispy Kreme is so sugary, it makes me sick. I I'm more of a bagel person myself. I d no no offense. It's just Ken: You know, non sugary donut. Lisa: I I do like some donuts, like a chocolate donuts, but I I prefer bagels. That's just Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: me. I'm a more of a bagel person. To me it's it that's way better. So fucking good. Just think about it, but I Ken: There's some bagels over here. If you wanna come over, we have a toaster now. A working toaster. Lisa: oooo I might have to take you up on that. wait, what we're talking about? my god, we so sidetracked with food. We do this all the yeah. Ken: Well, you know, like Colin Colin eating donuts. it's like well the thing is well yeah, I could understand like you know I've heard stories about kids gorging upon sugar and sugar and then throwing up. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, especially if you've been so deprived of it and you're like, this is great versus like Ken: Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's listeners out there that have like remembered the situation where they gorge on something they weren't supposed to as a little kid and like threw up because they had too many or too much of something. And it's like, yeah, we've all had Lisa: Yeah. Ken: that thing where we're like we ate too much of that and then we threw up. Like you you had too much candy or too much chocolate or too much soda or juice. But it's like you remember the throw-up, but you remember some people remember how good it was to get there. The journey along the throw-up. Yeah, 'cause I remember the Lisa: Yeah. Ken: first time I had funnel cake, man. Lisa: funnel cake. I still think it's too sweet for me, the funnel cake. It's good. It's good but cause basically. Ken: come on. Well you c you could brush off the powdered sugar a little bit and then it has the nice crunchy dough. It's pretty much a doughnut with sprinkle. Lisa: It's a donut. Ken: Yeah. Lisa: It's it's a very deep fried dupe super, super crunchy donut. Ken: I don't know if you if I don't know if you you ever went to like the county fair when you were a kid, but I was a really skinny kid. I I'm still like really skinny now. Like re ridiculously skinny. Like like people Yeah, people Lisa: I hate you. You eat whatever the fuck you want and you don't get any weight. I hate you. Ken: think I'm sick, but I'm like d if you see like some of the stuff I eat, it's just I have ridiculously fast metabolism and you know my side my mom's side of the family, they don't gain any weight. No, I'm trying to gain weight and I can't. Lisa: yeah, good for you. Good for you. Good for you. Ken: By the way, if it's some sort of apocalypse, I'm the first one to die. So Lisa: I wish I had that problem. I wish I had that problem. Ken: Yeah, but the thing was I No we don't. so I I will every time I would go to a county fair, I will look forward to, you know, trying some of their weird stuff and it's like trying to convince my parents would never work. And so I had to convince my like relatives. It's like, Can you please get me this so I could try it? 'Cause it was awesome. It's like deep fried whatever and as a kid, it's like my parents, you know, didn't want me to eat all that stuff, probably for good reason, if that's yeah. Yeah, so I it's understandable that him having that many donuts is probably not a good thing, with her being an almond mom. Lisa: Not so almond if she has a gumball machine in her bedroom. Ken: Well, it's like a weird thing, right? It's like it's I don't wanna say it's like someone that's like really into like you know, being thin and then, you know, throwing up afterwards. It's it's kinda like that. It's like her guilty pleasure, I guess. And plus she could just see it as like, well, only the shell is is candied, right? Like the middle of it is like, you know, gum. So it's like it's it's not really that much food if you think about it. Like she probably measured like how many how much sugar am I getting in? Like, yeah, you know. Lisa: I mm maybe. Ken: Who knows? It's it's like, well I don't know. we could go into the idea of hypocrisy, but you will that's that's a slippery slope. Lisa: I mean, yeah, I mean it shows how controlling she was in not just the kids, also with John. Ken: I feel b I felt so bad for that guy. She was really mean to him during the show, if you if you go back and watch it. Like it's like why is this guy with her? It's almost like he's just there and she's the ringleader and he happens to be, you know, one of the kids. The very grown up kid. Lisa: Mm yeah. I mean Ken: She abuses him regularly. Like I I that's why I don't I don't believe that what Colin is saying is false. Because they even caught it on camera that she's abusive. So Lisa: yeah. Ken: I'm just I'm I'm just saying if she if she treats her husband like that, what's she gonna do to her kids? Lisa: Yeah, that's why he left her. when Colin was five, he basically said, they separated. I don't think they were divorced at that point, but so Kate told him that, your dad chose to leave. So she she straight up told him, yeah, your dad chose to leave and which is really interesting because you know what's weird? Ma it I'm telling you about the parallels. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: My parents split up when I was around five. And she my mom said something very similar, like, he left the family, kind of a thing. It's like he he broke up the family. That's basically that's like the way she framed it and said to me, and I was a five year old. I was like, What? You know, it's it's confusing and y it's not age appropriate to tell a child that, but she said that and I'm like, Kate's a narcissist. Ken: Well, i in terms of that, like, I don't think just narcissist parents do that, but I I've I have known certain cases where if the mom has custody of the children, it's a it's it's kind of like a trope that the mother tends to tell the kids that the dad left. He left us. It's it's it's not out of the ordinary, actually. But the thing is it's what Kate kind of perpetuate it afterwards, right? as we move along, it's w what Colin has recounted what Kate told the children about their dad. If you want to elaborate upon that. Lisa: Yeah. So Kate actually got full custody of the kids. All eight And so he must have had like some sort of visitation rights, on the weekend and stuff. after John left, the the way she singled out Colin, the abuse got worse. Colin didn't really have that buffer. Of his dad, th playing, I guess, defense. And so eventually this led to Kate her abuse escalated by basically telling Colin, your dad doesn't want to see you. So when the visitation happened, you know, that you know he has custody of the kids over the weekend, she would drop Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: off the kids and not live Colin because he she had told Colin, your dad doesn't want to see you. so she was basically triangulating them. That's that was her way of separating him. She was separating. Ken: Why do you why do you think she did that to Colin and not the other children? Lisa: Why she singled him out. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I think that with the scapegoat child, they are usually a threat. With Colin, he did not want to be on camera. He just wanted to hang out with his siblings and play with them and be a normal thing. have a normal life. He with with a camera, it's he had to be on. He even says it in this book where he's interacting and then they like stop. They stopped filming and they would tell him or direct him, can someone-so or you say that or laugh a little bit louder or laugh a little bit harder or have a different expression and you just have to like, Okay, change your mood, change this. And if he seems sad or something, and Kate saw it, she would take him outside and say, You better fix your face, or you're gonna get it. Ken: Yeah, I yeah, yeah. He see he says that during the the Jay Shetty interview too. It's just pull him to the side where the cameras and you know, the camera crew is not seeing any of this kind of talk between mom and son. And it's just like pulling him to the corner and be like, You better perform telling this to a little kid. That's that's freaking terrifying for the little kid. Lisa: I think with narcissists, it's fucking terrifying for a kid. And b from my personal experience dealing with narcissistic mom, narcissistic bosses, narcissistic acquaintances, I think in their mind, if you're not constantly kissing their ass and being supply for them, they have this very binary view of like you're either with me or you're against me. So she's you don't want to be on camera, you don't then you're against me. And and I've noticed that with bosses too, where it's like you're not constantly kissing my ass. okay, I'm gonna I'm turn into Kate Gosselin. I'm gonna be a Karen and I'm gonna single you out and I will talk shit about the other employees, about you and make up stuff that you were you showed up drunk to work or you that like I have seen this. And people will believe it, you know? It's crazy. And I think that's what she did with her children. She separated Colin so he would not influence the other his siblings, which he's already talked about that in the Jay Shetty podcast. Which is you know, and that's one thing about Colin that I noticed. He's very self aware. He has a lot of insight. I I Ken: Especially being so young. I think he's only twenty two. And to have this insight, Lisa: I know. Ken: like I think he matured much faster than any kind of any kind of like a young adult would. I think be based Lisa: Yes. Ken: based on the situation, right? Lisa: He's so wise for a twenty-two-year-old. I mean, th for him to just and also he's very lucky that nowadays we have the vocabulary we know about narcissistic abuse. Because if this has happened 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I don't know if it would be the same. Because now he could just go to literally can go to chat chat GPT. And be like, your mom's a narcissist, she did this to you, she triangul triangulated you. Now she did a smear campaign by saying that you had ADHD, bipolar, blah blah blah, alphabet soup of the DSM 5. nowadays he's in that in that respect. but I digress. yeah, why did she single him out? The same way narcissists single people out. If they perceive that you're not on their side for whatever real or imagined, it's like you're either their their worst enemy or you're their supply. That's just how they are. And that's why these people are so dangerous, you know? Ken: Well yeah, and y you could and she probably saw him as like sh combative, right? Like she he's just the one he's a troublemaker. That's she probably saw him as a troublemaker 'cause he's, he has sentient thought. He doesn't wanna just do everything that mom tells him to do because he's a normal kid. And when you have what majority of the kids just being like, listen to you, you single out the problem child, right? And then you you you focus on that and then you make an example out of him in front of the other kids. And to double Lisa: Yes. Ken: down on that, blame the kid for ruining any kind of like family family synergy you have and single him out. It's kind of like yeah, it is really that scapegoat, right? The reason why the family's not together, it's because of him. Or in any situation, she probably targeted her husband. we're not together, not we're not filming any shows, we're not one big hip happy family because your dad walked out. Or Colin is not playing ball. Because he doesn't care about the rest of us. He just wants to, do his own thing. And it it and you know, d due the duration of our podcast, we're on episode twenty-nine. It it's it's always that common thing, right? Especially when you see celebrity children or children of celebrities. We've seen this with with the Beckham family, we seen this with Haiti and Panny Terry with her mom. We saw this with Michael Jackson, and it's just It's it's that one constant that you see. It's it's singling out one person. you know, in every single case it's to manipulate that person or to do a to create a narrative against that one person that is kind of not playing ball. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a yeah. Ken: And it's just yeah, he's just yeah, he's not playing ball and it's just in this case it's it's re it really is like mind boggling because in other situations you saw Michael Jackson, he was a little older when he started being more combative towards Joe, Hayden Panettiere She was a teenager, much older than what Colin was right w when this happened. And then you saw even like Brooklyn Beckham. He's an adult. So you saw people that were in different stages of their lives, but still had some sort of maturity or had some more a life experience. She did this. Kate did this to her like kid son. before he was even like a teenager, he's she's done this to him, singled him out. And it it's surprising that he's not more messed up. At twenty two, right? Lisa: You know, people say that. It's like, you seem so well adjusted after everything you've been through. And really, honestly Ken: You mature quicker. Lisa: You and Chair Cook, but thing is that you're actually just you're dis you're dissociated. You're literally this is what they say, psychologists will say this. You're operating on a functional free state. You're literally just dissociated going through life and in the way you're in survival mode, but you're not really living. You're going through the motions and you seem okay on the outside, but inside, it's like, you know, it when people let's take their own lives or whatever, it's like, but they seem so fine. And I was like, mm, what you see on the outside doesn't reflect what's going inside, inside their head. Ken: Yeah, it's that it's that social masking, right? people are very keen on creating a facade where people see one aspect of a person and not see the inner turmoil. And that's why when someone does, you know, k take their own life, or goes to that point. People always say the same thing. I did not see it coming. Some people saw it coming. If you know the person, you saw it coming. If the person was, yeah. There's Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, if you know them yeah. Ken: there are people that that leave they leave nuggets. people anybody that is pushed to that brink usually leaves nuggets of why it led to that. But the problem is a lot of times it's too late. When you that's that's why if you're if you ever had a friend or a family member that has Taking it to that extreme, you always try to play it back in your head. It's like at what point I should have saw this coming. Because then there's that guilt, right? There's that guilt. And it's it's a horrible guilt to have, especially if you thought you could prevent it. If I was just there more, or if I just only said this, if you all these other things. It's it's a terrible existence too for the people that survive, that are friends or family of the person that does that. That Lisa: It yeah, it's interesting you say that because even Colin at the end of the his memoir, he says, I'm still dealing with certain things, you know, having Ken: Course. Lisa: to trust people and stuff, even though it on the outside. And you know, after his dad left, you know, he wrote about just having nightmares about being chased by cameras and the the nightmares and stuff. And it's something that I think Both of us can relate to, you know, the night terrors, then the constant recurring nightmares. It's disrupted sleep because of our complex post traumatic stress disorder. So if people think like you're great, you're like, We're not great. Ken: We're we're just really good at masking. Lisa: I if that's what you want to call it, sure, is masking. But Ken: Here's the thing. I go I go to work and as I gotten older, I'm I gotten better at masking. I try not to have issues that affected me in my free time or family life or with my friends get to my work life. When I was younger, it was harder for me to do that. I always had the thing where I would just blow up at work, and it was not because of work, it's just because of my personal life boiling over. I'm I'm The the problem with me getting older and more mature and you know knowing myself better and going through therapy is that I know myself and I also told myself that I would not let that affect people around me, you know, people I love, my friends and vet and my family that that I don't want to push this upon them. And even my coworkers who who happen to, you know, work with me, I don't want to push that upon them. So I got better at masking. Which is for better or worse, it keeps me employed. Because you don't want to blow up at work. So everyone does mask. As you get older, for me, I just got better at masking. for some people, they never mask and they just let everything out. And that's usually when they get fired. And they get, you know, they get shown on social media, losing their their minds, and then, something happens and they just got docks or something like that. But yeah. For better or worse, I got better at masking. Lisa: I mean you're right. I mean it is a masking, you know. I mean you have to, yeah, when you're Ken: Yeah, because when you're w I think yeah, because when you're younger, you're more impulsive, right? So when you're more impulsive, you just let it out. You let it out, you let it out. You you just let you just have erratic behavior. You go out, you go party, you go get some drunk, and you go party. You have a outlet. As you get older, that outlet is like gangs you try to you you know, get get rid of it some other way. But It's it's it I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it it it allows you to function. And the masking is something that you acquire as you get older. You get more life experience. Lisa: Yeah, I'm I'm sure with Colin that's I mean he's had a lot of therapy, but at the same time I noticed that I don't think he notices this or didn't mention it in the book, but he didn't have like great therapy when he became a teenager and he moved into his dad's house after he was out of the institution. Ken: Mm-hmm. yeah, you should mention the part where he was like institutionalized. That's a big s that's Lisa: yeah, dn yeah, right. Ken: a big part of it. Lisa: Yeah, burying the lead, right? I mean, I don't know if I go that far, but like so that's so from the book, like I was mentioning, Kate's abuse got worse after John left. So and you know what the weirdest thing where it's like didn't the cameras notice that he this abuse is going on? Well Guess what? They actually turned it into an episode where so Kate had the basement and there was a the basement had a finished part and then there was an unfinished part, right? And he lived in the unfinished part of the basement. But he says that there was an episode where you can actually watch and they go, we're rearranging the house because John left, so we're just rearranging where everyone's sleeping, and someone's sleeping this bedroom, this, And Colin just happens to sleep in this basement in in an air mattress. How fun. Like just what the fuck? Kind of a thing. And Ken: That's that is that the part of the interview where he mentions my mom locked me in a room. Lisa: kind of. But it ca it also Ken: Yeah, 'cause he he he 'cause he mentions his mom locking him in a room. Lisa: Yes, well it was the basement. It was an unfinished part of the basement, air mattress. There was a tiny window, right? it was sealed, so he couldn't really like open it. Ken: His mom locked him in a room. It it literally is a story of Rapunzel or something like that. Lisa: Yeah, well, it escalates. Eventually it escalates more and more because she isolated Colin in the fact that he could not eat dinner with the rest of the kids. Cause obviously, as we know, hindsight, she did not want him influencing the rest the kids. That's why she separated him, as far as like not wanting to be on TV, because that was her meal ticket. So he would have to eat after the kids were finished eating and he would clean up, right? So the kids Yeah, redheaded stepchild. Ken: Yeah, like the poor little stepchild. Sh she put she sh my gosh, she put him in the dungeon pretty much. She had a dungeon built for Lisa: Well, it escalated. Ken: him. Yeah, it's a bungee dungeon. Lisa: Yeah, well well, they would go, like for example, he would say they would go watch a movie and then be like, Colin, go to your room and everyone else would be able to just play games or watch movies and stuff and separated. And then to the point where it's like it was too much for him and he's like, I want out, he actually talks about in one chapter, he ran away. He that little window that I was talking about, the seal shirt, he ended up Crying it open, he he runs away, but then he realizes I have nowhere to go because she basically owns this fucking town. all the neighbors know her, they love her. The police love her because she would bring them Cinnabons, like fresh-baked pastries to them. So of course they loved her. And it's like, I can't go to the authorities, I have nowhere to go. And and because of that. situation where he leaves that's when she's like, the the neighbors are gonna find out about him. So that's when she creates this little room and there's so this room there's a lock that he has to like knock to use the restroom and then there's a camera where she can, watch him at all times. but it then there's another point It it's not clear in the book. It looks like he r runs away another time because and when he runs away again, that's when she really like that's when she has him zip tied because zip ties like his wrists and his feet and and gets him institutionalized because it's like, if people find out about him of what I'm doing, so she and the fact that she had triangulated him against his dad and alienated him from his dad, saying, your dad doesn't even want to see you. He wants nothing to do with you. he's like, I can't go to my dad. I have nowhere to nowhere to go to So even when he ran away, he was like, Where do I go? And Yeah, it was just a sad situation. She has him institutionalized after that. He's eleven. Okay. so guess what? So this facility that he went to, Fairmount Behavioral Health System, this they're in Philadelphia, this psychiatric facility. Guess how old you have to be to be institutionalized there? Ken: How old? Lisa: thirteen. Ken: So he doesn't make it. Lisa: No, no, no, no. He's eleven. So w guess what this Karen does. His his Karen mom, Kate, she forges the documentation to say that he's 13, even though he was eleven at the time. And the thing is, here's the weird thing. Cause he at the end of the his memoir, he actually sees my real date is there. My actual date is Birth, year of birth, month, day, year but yet they still say he's a thirteen year old to have him institutionalized. It is fucked up how the power that she had because she had manipulated them to do that. It's fucking insane. So as an adult he went back And he was getting all this documentation, you know. I mean, when you're writing a book and a memoir, memoir you have more leeway versus like a biography of as far as like lawsuits and stuff, defamation, slander, whatever. He he got all his ducks in a row. he had the receipts. And you can tell in that you remember the Jay Shetty podcast where he was like, I have Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: this documentation. He was he showed their receipts one after another. And He found one documentation that had that. So he should not have been to this facility because of Ken: No, he should not have. Lisa: no. with this everything coming out. I think he should sue. I mean, I don't know what his the statue of limitations are. I don't know what they are, but this is very interesting. And it shows you the power that she had. Because he even said that when he he was institutionalized, He asked his psychologist, when am I out of here? When I when do I get out of here and this? Because in these facilities usually people they usually stay about a week, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: you know? he was there for over two years. Ken: Yeah, that's that's just that's just uncalled for. It's if she's in there for two years, you thinking that he's has some severe psychiatric disorder. A lot of I've I've I've known friends and family that have been committed to like a you know, temporary hold and it's like a week. usually once you get your marbles back, you like they release you and someone like your family member comes to get you. And that I th I think that's the thing. Nobody came to get him. And he was a minor. Lisa: Minor. Ken: He's stuck in there. It's prison. Lisa: i it and guess what? So he found it very odd that when she only came to visit him like what once the entire time he was institutionalized. Ken: Yeah, once like what nine what was it, a year and a half later. That's insane. Lisa: but you know what he said in his book? She was talking to the psychologists and the staff like she knew them. he said she had so much power being a TV star, and she was making probably very good money, right? And she was talking to them like they were best friends. And it struck him kind of odd, even as a child. Like they know each other? What? So the fact that she had all this pull, she was able to manipulate him to get him institutionalized even before he was 13 years old. And it's online Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it's well online it says he was 12, but in his book he says it's 11. I just want to make that clear. So it was before. Yes. Ken: Either way he was not old enough. He was not old enough either way, so Lisa: Exactly. So it shows the pool that she had and the power that she had. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: And how she manipulated everybody in this fucking town, you know?