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WHY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED TO BETTING APPS · Apostle Lazarus Femi

0:00
Speaker 1: If sixty or six five million adults gambling, that's a
0:05
Speaker 1: very huge number.
0:06
Speaker 2: I don't agree totally with that number. You feel that's understated,
0:10
Speaker 2: over overstated, and overstated. I think Societ Okay, the evidence
0:15
Speaker 2: driven advocate and founder of Gamble Award, who is fighting
0:19
Speaker 2: one of Nigeria's most invisible public health crisis.
0:22
Speaker 1: And there's another case that I know someone who was
0:25
Speaker 1: looked on gambling. He faked his own kidnap, collected and
0:30
Speaker 1: some came back home and did thanksgiving a charge interesting
0:38
Speaker 1: and cried on the day of the Thanksgiving and everybody
0:42
Speaker 1: cried that they could have killed him. It did that
0:47
Speaker 1: because in de took class on debts and went back straighten.
0:52
Speaker 2: As much as we've seen different research work, and I've
0:55
Speaker 2: read a number of them quoting different numbers, we always
0:59
Speaker 2: want to look at them question either because the research
1:02
Speaker 2: is funded by the industries and you know that it
1:04
Speaker 2: writes a negative narrative already on its own, there's also
1:08
Speaker 2: the researchers by us that you want to look at.
1:10
Speaker 2: So if if my interest is to say the industry
1:13
Speaker 2: is entirely bad, what I am going to be looking
1:15
Speaker 2: for will be stories of people who have experienced the
1:19
Speaker 2: negative aspect of the industry. I'm saying that gambling is
1:24
Speaker 2: a moral It's neither good or not bad. It's the
1:27
Speaker 2: interaction with it that makes it either.
1:30
Speaker 1: So you believe that they can be more.
1:32
Speaker 2: I believe that people can fall within low risk. If
1:35
Speaker 2: you keep players on the low risk, the negative narrative
1:38
Speaker 2: would have been reduced. But because you are prioritizing making
1:42
Speaker 2: profits of the misery of your customers, you want to
1:45
Speaker 2: make that profit.
1:46
Speaker 1: Because the regulator allows you to. The government gambling, they
1:51
Speaker 1: of course they do. So it means the government also
1:53
Speaker 1: benefits from gamblin of course.
1:55
Speaker 2: Of course they do. If government was not benefiting at all,
1:58
Speaker 2: gambling will be gone in a week or less.
2:02
Speaker 1: Can we write said that the government has benefit from
2:04
Speaker 1: the mystery of the people. Hey guys, if you're watching
2:18
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2:33
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3:01
Speaker 1: of video that can be a blessing to your have.
3:04
Speaker 1: I look forward to having you again and again on
3:07
Speaker 1: this show. Thank you so much. Now, this is a
3:17
Speaker 1: very sobering statistics and you are you are you're a
3:21
Speaker 1: data person and considering what you do. And now it
3:26
Speaker 1: is stated here let me use the word allegedly that
3:31
Speaker 1: over one in three adults that's about territory to forty
3:37
Speaker 1: of adults in Nigeria engaging gambling and some reports suggests
3:43
Speaker 1: that tens of millions gamble regularly. Would estimate of sixty
3:49
Speaker 1: five million people betting daily. How serious as the show
3:53
Speaker 1: of gambling in.
3:55
Speaker 2: Nigeria camping activities? And I have the first thank you
4:00
Speaker 2: for that very important question. You see, over the past
4:07
Speaker 2: five six, seven years, we've seen a sharp rise in
4:10
Speaker 2: terms of gambling activities in the country and then across Africa.
4:17
Speaker 2: I see the data also from the National News Agency
4:21
Speaker 2: of Nigeria saying that at the very least sixty to
4:24
Speaker 2: sixty five million Nigerians gambling. We also see the data
4:29
Speaker 2: that says that many of them are gambling daily. Yes,
4:35
Speaker 2: in terms of numbers, it's difficult to quantify from the
4:39
Speaker 2: outside because those with the data are actually the gaming operators,
4:45
Speaker 2: so they are the ones who are able to say, oh,
4:47
Speaker 2: this is how many the number of gamblers are in
4:51
Speaker 2: the country. But that's not to say that we cannot
4:55
Speaker 2: when we conduct service now come up with and estimate
5:00
Speaker 2: say that people truly are gambling. So if you easily
5:03
Speaker 2: conduct a poll on the streets, you would realize actually
5:08
Speaker 2: that it is true that a lot of people you
5:11
Speaker 2: know are gambling. And I'll speak to numbers. Last year,
5:17
Speaker 2: we wanted to test the total consumption model. Yes, what's
5:21
Speaker 2: the model. We wanted to find out if the frequency
5:24
Speaker 2: of gambling had a direct correlation with the HAM Okay, yeah,
5:31
Speaker 2: So we wanted to know if the fact that people
5:33
Speaker 2: were betting daily and intensely, whether it was going to
5:38
Speaker 2: cause harm to the.
5:41
Speaker 1: HAM.
5:42
Speaker 2: So we decided to go around and sovey two seventy
5:47
Speaker 2: active gamblers. Okay, so we divided into two those who
5:52
Speaker 2: were non frequent gamblers and the frequent gamblers, and what
5:56
Speaker 2: we found out was that for the frequent gamblers there
5:59
Speaker 2: were four times more likely to experience hard that those
6:02
Speaker 2: who are not frequent four times more likely, four times
6:06
Speaker 2: more likely. So the problem always is the frequency of
6:12
Speaker 2: the game. That is not to say, because when we
6:14
Speaker 2: say four times more likely, it means that there is
6:16
Speaker 2: a number for those who are not frequent gamblers as well.
6:20
Speaker 2: So ham also exists with those who are not frequent gamblers.
6:25
Speaker 2: The only difference is that they have low risk, low
6:29
Speaker 2: level of exposure to risk compared to those who days.
6:32
Speaker 1: What do you guys do in your organization is to
6:38
Speaker 1: mitigate the risk of gambling by working with organizations gambling
6:43
Speaker 1: organizations to put policies in place that can stop people
6:49
Speaker 1: from doing this idea addictively or in a way that
6:52
Speaker 1: will cost them a mic correct to.
6:55
Speaker 2: A very large degree. Yes, So we work across prevention, research,
7:00
Speaker 2: meant training, advisory generally within the industry. So at the
7:05
Speaker 2: end of the day, our goal is player protection. So
7:07
Speaker 2: we work with gaming regulators gaming operators, healthcare providers, just
7:12
Speaker 2: about any stakeholders. In fact, education ministries across different jurisdictions,
7:17
Speaker 2: because we want to also make sure that the care
7:19
Speaker 2: givers are able to protect you know, people under them.
7:21
Speaker 1: An a great gambling organization makes money from the frequency
7:24
Speaker 1: of the gambling. Correct.
7:27
Speaker 2: The only difference now is for how long. So if
7:31
Speaker 2: you have an organization who makes money from the frequency
7:36
Speaker 2: and then people get hooked on their platform, they make
7:39
Speaker 2: money for the first two three years, and then sustainability
7:42
Speaker 2: wise they will not because what you would effectively do
7:47
Speaker 2: is to lose a player perpetually. For instance, if a
7:51
Speaker 2: player dies by suicide, that's the player that I have
7:54
Speaker 2: lost perpetually.
7:55
Speaker 1: Because I mean, since this is a podcast conversation, we
7:58
Speaker 1: can go back for the bag. Yeah, so every player
8:01
Speaker 1: that you lose one or the other, you have about
8:04
Speaker 1: fifty Please.
8:06
Speaker 3: Young demography who are trying to make money, and then
8:11
Speaker 3: even those who are seeing gambling as the way to
8:15
Speaker 3: end their deliberate So so every one person that what
8:17
Speaker 3: I'm trying to say is that the entry part into
8:20
Speaker 3: gambling is wider than they exit.
8:24
Speaker 2: So in a manner of speaking, I would agree with
8:26
Speaker 2: you right that the entry point is wider as well,
8:29
Speaker 2: and that's because more people are now turning to gambling
8:33
Speaker 2: as a way of making income. Because if the motivation
8:36
Speaker 2: was correct, and you get people hooked on your platform,
8:40
Speaker 2: it means that your exist point will ordinarily be wider
8:43
Speaker 2: than your entry point. But because the motivation is different,
8:47
Speaker 2: people are entering because of money, and the lower of
8:49
Speaker 2: people want to make money.
8:51
Speaker 1: You've spoken them, You've worked with several gamblers. What does
8:53
Speaker 1: the mind of a gambler look like, So it depends
8:58
Speaker 1: on the demography that were discus with. The average gambler
9:04
Speaker 1: thinks that what he's doing is to end an income.
9:10
Speaker 2: What what he's doing is normal is he believes that, look,
9:16
Speaker 2: the economic situation does not favor so we've got to
9:19
Speaker 2: do something. And then he thinks that if he has
9:24
Speaker 2: committed an amount of money, even if he loses it,
9:27
Speaker 2: he needs to win it back. So he begins to
9:29
Speaker 2: chase his losses. So that and that's where you will
9:31
Speaker 2: find the most players.
9:34
Speaker 1: So you find most players because they are chasing losses
9:36
Speaker 1: correct more like it's avengeful mission. If they've taken from
9:39
Speaker 1: Meltic back.
9:41
Speaker 2: Some of them have the belief that they are contributing
9:46
Speaker 2: two towards a wallet that would eventually yield to them
9:51
Speaker 2: if I have lost today lost tomorrow. So that there
9:54
Speaker 2: is the gambler's fallacy, the belief that if I had
9:57
Speaker 2: had a winning streak, I'm about to lose, and if
10:01
Speaker 2: I had had a losing streak, I'm about to win.
10:04
Speaker 2: That's a fallacy, but we see that. So the average
10:07
Speaker 2: gambler is thinking, oh, come on, the past six days,
10:10
Speaker 2: I have been losing. It means that if I play
10:12
Speaker 2: the seventh or the eighth one winning most ca and
10:14
Speaker 2: it just keeps great, it continues to go on exactly
10:17
Speaker 2: and just keep losing correctly. So this means that gambling
10:22
Speaker 2: activities is more prevalent and portant about absolutely absolutely does
10:27
Speaker 2: gambling happen in hybrow environments as well. Of course, In fact,
10:32
Speaker 2: there are VIP customers on the platform will spend a
10:36
Speaker 2: whooping some of my amounts. You know. On this platform, however,
10:40
Speaker 2: way you will find the highest number of people. And
10:42
Speaker 2: of course it goes without saying. If you have to
10:45
Speaker 2: sample a nation as well, you will find more poor
10:47
Speaker 2: people than the rich. Yep, So it also makes sense
10:51
Speaker 2: that you will find more poor people gambling than you'll
10:53
Speaker 2: find the riach.
10:57
Speaker 1: Gambling and for exut.
11:00
Speaker 2: Classify them under the same. So for X spread betting,
11:08
Speaker 2: you have introduced betting to it. I think it goes
11:11
Speaker 2: back to the definition of gambling.
11:13
Speaker 1: How will you define it?
11:16
Speaker 2: Placing something of value? So it can be money, it
11:20
Speaker 2: can be property, it can be anything on an event
11:25
Speaker 2: which outcome you are not sure of. There's no guarantee
11:29
Speaker 2: with an expectation of your return. So if in four
11:33
Speaker 2: X you're placing something of value on an event which
11:38
Speaker 2: outcome you don't know, but you have an expectation, then
11:41
Speaker 2: you're gambling.
11:43
Speaker 1: So if someone says to you that I'm trying to
11:46
Speaker 1: quit gambling and I'm trying to going to.
11:48
Speaker 2: For X, what would you advise be They're not quitting gambling.
11:53
Speaker 2: What you're doing, effectively is to say, look, I think
11:56
Speaker 2: that this particular product is no longer for me. Let
11:58
Speaker 2: me move to another one. So you think that the
12:00
Speaker 2: risk in one is lower than the other, but that
12:03
Speaker 2: you're moving away from gambling entirely. Not really, So my
12:06
Speaker 2: advice would always be you see, what we have realized
12:10
Speaker 2: in our work is that if you advise a player
12:13
Speaker 2: not to gamble anymore, you're chasing away entirely. It won't
12:17
Speaker 2: come to you exactly because that's not that's not the
12:19
Speaker 2: advice is looking for. Some persons don't want to stop gambling.
12:22
Speaker 1: What advice are they looking for?
12:25
Speaker 2: They want to learn how they can deal risk their plane.
12:30
Speaker 1: So you're saying that because we understand every case of
12:32
Speaker 1: what dition is a mentally uness are you saying that
12:35
Speaker 1: gambling is a lifelong mental compromise?
12:39
Speaker 2: I believe so. I believe so. Now the thing with
12:43
Speaker 2: problem gambling because not everybody who is exhibiting problem gambling
12:47
Speaker 2: is addicted. Because what we always see is people saying
12:53
Speaker 2: or because this person is chasing losses, it must be addicted.
12:58
Speaker 2: So if it's not addicted and advising him like someone
13:01
Speaker 2: who is addicted, he won't say away because he thinks
13:03
Speaker 2: you're not meeting his needs. And how do you know?
13:06
Speaker 2: You know, addiction is the extreme level where a person
13:08
Speaker 2: has lost control. Yeah, but then a person who is
13:12
Speaker 2: chasing losses is also a problematic gambler. So there are
13:17
Speaker 2: different vulnerable vulnerability groups. If persin falls under one, and
13:24
Speaker 2: then it moves like that until it gets to the
13:26
Speaker 2: level of addiction. So I believe that it's a lifelong thing.
13:31
Speaker 2: So people move from one level before they get to the.
13:34
Speaker 1: Stories with you. I know of a gambler. Oh, at
13:41
Speaker 1: some point and this is not what you call it,
13:44
Speaker 1: like you said, the problematic gambler. Right, So at some
13:47
Speaker 1: point it taught to himself that the best job for
13:52
Speaker 1: him to do is to collect contribution from people. Yeah,
13:56
Speaker 1: so you let's take a contribution of people, and everybody
14:00
Speaker 1: they were contributing you some of money, right with him
14:05
Speaker 1: and all that, and he just you know, and you
14:08
Speaker 1: know the way that thing works. Something just keeps telling
14:10
Speaker 1: you that you can multiply this and all that. So
14:15
Speaker 1: by the time this one wants to take the contribution
14:17
Speaker 1: that wants to take a combition, he couldn't be talk with.
14:20
Speaker 2: All of them.
14:21
Speaker 1: And so he became a very complicated problem. And eventually
14:27
Speaker 1: he ended it all right. And there's another case that
14:30
Speaker 1: I know someone who was hooked on gambling and he
14:40
Speaker 1: faked his own kidnap. Yeah, collected and some came back
14:49
Speaker 1: home and did Thanksgiving in church and cried on the
14:57
Speaker 1: day of the Thanksgiving and everybody cried that they could
15:03
Speaker 1: have killed him. Well, they actually gambled it, did that
15:10
Speaker 1: because it to clear some debts and went back straighten right.
15:15
Speaker 1: Would you describe this case as problematically absolutely.
15:19
Speaker 2: Both cases. Both cases. Okay, there are problem gamlass. They
15:24
Speaker 2: but until they are clinically examined, you would not be
15:27
Speaker 2: able to say whether they're addicted or not. And this
15:31
Speaker 2: is where we always want to be careful in coloration,
15:36
Speaker 2: because when you want to say someone is addicted, you
15:38
Speaker 2: want the clinical psychologist to have examined the person and
15:40
Speaker 2: sertified the pression, and from the outside you see a problem.
15:43
Speaker 2: And that's why we always call problem gamblers. Once you're
15:46
Speaker 2: satisfied to be an addict, that's first to address the
15:50
Speaker 2: first scenario. You said something continue to tell him that
15:58
Speaker 2: he could double the money.
16:00
Speaker 1: That's that's the mind of an average gambler.
16:02
Speaker 2: That's something telling him his gambling misconception. It's part of
16:07
Speaker 2: the misconception, is one of the gambler's fallacy and other
16:09
Speaker 2: misconceptions that we're talking about the fact that you think
16:13
Speaker 2: that you can double your money, you think that you
16:18
Speaker 2: have a control over the outcome of a game. Now,
16:23
Speaker 2: rather than addressed the individual, because for us, we always
16:26
Speaker 2: want to check what are the failures that led this
16:29
Speaker 2: person into this, What could have been done better to
16:32
Speaker 2: help these persons. And I'm going to join both scenarios together.
16:36
Speaker 2: I think it's a failure. It's an RG feeling that's
16:38
Speaker 2: responsible gaining failure on the part of the operato, of
16:42
Speaker 2: the operato correct the gambling company. And why am I
16:46
Speaker 2: saying this? If a person puts an amount on your
16:49
Speaker 2: platform and it comes back to place another bit, you
16:52
Speaker 2: know when you analyzi is profile that this person actually
16:57
Speaker 2: is chasing losses. At that point you were supposed to
17:00
Speaker 2: stop him, because every player has a profile with the operatur.
17:06
Speaker 2: When they take your KYC, they're not just looking at
17:10
Speaker 2: it from the anti money laundring lens, and that's also
17:13
Speaker 2: a connection to problem gambling anyway, but then they're also
17:17
Speaker 2: looking at your risk profile. It's students, for instance, who
17:21
Speaker 2: ordinarily would be playing with one thousand, five hundred two thousand,
17:23
Speaker 2: five hundred, who immediately goes to play two fifty thousand.
17:27
Speaker 2: You want to ask questions, do you have students that?
17:30
Speaker 2: Of course absolutely, I mean one died by suicide painfully,
17:36
Speaker 2: I think it was lit last year. Yes see, we
17:38
Speaker 2: have to put it out to a publication. Unfortunately, we
17:40
Speaker 2: realize that government institution and I say this advisedly always
17:46
Speaker 2: have a way of trying to protect the reputation that
17:49
Speaker 2: they never had. So when you try to trace what
17:53
Speaker 2: led this personto this, they're covering the story. Because for us,
18:00
Speaker 2: when we estories like this, we are so pinched that
18:02
Speaker 2: we want to find out exactly how the dispersing gets yes,
18:06
Speaker 2: so that nobody would fall into that ditch again, Yeah,
18:10
Speaker 2: could it be from the operator? Could they have stopped it?
18:12
Speaker 2: If we have this data, we're able to present it
18:14
Speaker 2: to the industry to say, look, this is one of
18:16
Speaker 2: your feelings.
18:18
Speaker 1: An average celebrity, an average skits maker, advertises gambling companience,
18:26
Speaker 1: and we all know that gambling organizations would not make money.
18:32
Speaker 1: People are not betting daily. Right to reduce the risk
18:37
Speaker 1: associated with betting is to reduce the number of customers.
18:44
Speaker 1: You are saying that they should have systems as able
18:49
Speaker 1: to assess if I can call them, I risk individuals
18:56
Speaker 1: in their database by looking at the frequent their gambling.
19:02
Speaker 1: Why would they want to do that since that's how
19:05
Speaker 1: they make loads of their money.
19:08
Speaker 2: Interestingly, so it looks like every time I talk about
19:13
Speaker 2: the industry, I'm always facing the regulator. You are only
19:18
Speaker 2: able to make that amount of money from people's misery
19:22
Speaker 2: because the environment that regulates you allows you. So the
19:30
Speaker 2: data we're talking about, it's not something that they're introducing,
19:33
Speaker 2: they already have it. Gaming operators are investing increasingly in
19:40
Speaker 2: beaver analytive tools so that they would know what kind
19:43
Speaker 2: of games are their customers playing, how much are they spending,
19:47
Speaker 2: how much time at they spending, so that they can
19:49
Speaker 2: invest some more in it and attract them if it's
19:52
Speaker 2: attractive to them. I mean, if they're playing more minus
19:55
Speaker 2: is attractive to them, that's why they're playing these tools interestingly.
19:58
Speaker 2: Are also they have the capability of being used to
20:02
Speaker 2: know when a person is chasing losses.
20:05
Speaker 1: Do you feel the organizations now, yes, they do, and
20:09
Speaker 1: there is one thing to have a system that can
20:11
Speaker 1: provide that data. It's under tem to have the policy
20:15
Speaker 1: that is actually monitoring the data for the purpose of
20:19
Speaker 1: helping the clients.
20:21
Speaker 2: Now I think that it would be speaking or taking
20:27
Speaker 2: brief on behalf of the operator to assume that they
20:30
Speaker 2: don't know. As a matter of fact, ignorance will never
20:34
Speaker 2: be an excuse. You have KPIs for different departments. Yes,
20:38
Speaker 2: how do you have an organization that is running and
20:41
Speaker 2: you have no department for safer gambling.
20:44
Speaker 1: Are you directly saying the government should win.
20:47
Speaker 2: The government should prioritize what is needful.
20:51
Speaker 1: If forty sixty or sixty five million adults are looked
20:57
Speaker 1: on gambling, that's a very huge number. That's a very
21:05
Speaker 1: huge number. The platform said, that's about nineteen percent society
21:12
Speaker 1: who don't gambling.
21:15
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't agree totally with that number, because
21:19
Speaker 2: you feel that understated, over overstated. I think that is overstated.
21:25
Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. And why I think so?
21:28
Speaker 2: Is this except there is a metric to make.
21:31
Speaker 1: Sure gambling is now too. I mean it's now too.
21:35
Speaker 1: She can't download the app, I don't know call their.
21:38
Speaker 2: Names, So gambling is too.
21:40
Speaker 1: They found a way to make it fanciful.
21:42
Speaker 2: I agree with you.
21:43
Speaker 1: They found a way to make it less relegious.
21:45
Speaker 2: I agree with you. Why I'm saying this is again,
21:48
Speaker 2: I want to talk to reliable data. The vital puts
21:53
Speaker 2: the World estimate of disorder gambling disorder at it.
22:03
Speaker 1: World.
22:03
Speaker 2: Yes, so in Botswana. And they are able to quote
22:09
Speaker 2: Bluswana because the government itself commissioned institutions to actually lead
22:15
Speaker 2: their research in this regard and they found something similar
22:19
Speaker 2: with who I think that is sensational to say that
22:27
Speaker 2: gambling disorder in Nigeria is around forty five percent.
22:32
Speaker 1: Percent they're talking about about nineteen percent.
22:38
Speaker 2: Again, do you do we.
22:40
Speaker 1: Have any data, verifiable data as touching because one of
22:49
Speaker 1: the things I know about us is that we are
22:51
Speaker 1: bad with numbers correct and that that in itself is
22:55
Speaker 1: real need to money problems. So do we have any
22:58
Speaker 1: established record data as touching number of people in Nigeria?
23:03
Speaker 1: First and promost that I looked on this.
23:06
Speaker 2: I think that as much as we're seeing different research work,
23:09
Speaker 2: and I've read a number of them quoting different numbers,
23:13
Speaker 2: we always want to look at them with questions. Either
23:17
Speaker 2: because the research is funded by the industries and you
23:21
Speaker 2: know that it writes a negative narrative already on its own,
23:24
Speaker 2: there's also the researchers by us that you want to
23:27
Speaker 2: look at. So if my interest is to say the
23:30
Speaker 2: industry is entirely bad, what I am going to be
23:33
Speaker 2: looking for will be stories of people who have experienced
23:36
Speaker 2: the negative aspect of the industry. Are I'm saying that
23:42
Speaker 2: gambling is a moral It's neither good nor bad. It's
23:46
Speaker 2: the interaction with it that makes it either the two.
23:50
Speaker 2: So you believe that there can be a moderate gambler.
23:53
Speaker 2: I believe that people can fall within low risk than
23:58
Speaker 2: say this is so there's low risk, there's moderate risk level,
24:03
Speaker 2: there is high, that's very high.
24:06
Speaker 1: But the idea of it is that you start from
24:08
Speaker 1: the lower risk correct. Then eventually the chance of you
24:12
Speaker 1: geting to the point where the risk is high is
24:15
Speaker 1: higher as long as you started correct.
24:16
Speaker 2: So again it goes back to the platform the gaming operators.
24:21
Speaker 2: If you keep players on the low risk, the negative
24:23
Speaker 2: narrative would have been reduced. But because you are prioritizing
24:28
Speaker 2: making profits of the misery of your customers, they will.
24:32
Speaker 1: Want to make profit because that's why they're there.
24:34
Speaker 2: Again, you you want to make that profit because the
24:38
Speaker 2: regulator allows you to.
24:39
Speaker 1: Who is the regulator the government? Do you feel golate
24:43
Speaker 1: gambling or you feel they need to start regulating gambling?
24:48
Speaker 2: I think that it will be unfair to say to
24:51
Speaker 2: say that the government is currently not regulating. What we
24:55
Speaker 2: are seeing is inadequate regulation. When you say regulation, okay,
25:02
Speaker 2: so safer gambling is just one of them. There is
25:07
Speaker 2: anti money laundring. Before now, gambling the gambling industries used
25:13
Speaker 2: to be a very lucreative platform, platform for money laundress.
25:19
Speaker 2: He took the intervention of the regulators to take that out.
25:23
Speaker 2: It was when declared that alongside all that issues real
25:26
Speaker 2: estate and all of that before we could get out
25:28
Speaker 2: of the gray least you know of the FF.
25:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I checked the last data I checked, gambling
25:35
Speaker 1: is not in the first You have clubs.
25:38
Speaker 2: For moneylaun drain. You may not be in the first three,
25:41
Speaker 2: but I mean so.
25:43
Speaker 1: You have you have clubs, mm hmm, you have real estate, right,
25:49
Speaker 1: I want to talk to one of them is the religious.
25:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you have that right. So if you if
25:55
Speaker 2: you look at the anti moneylaun drain acts, he has
25:59
Speaker 2: this specific provision for gaming and casino operators.
26:04
Speaker 1: That's how serious it is. Gambling organis repay tax, of
26:10
Speaker 1: course they do. So it means the government also benefits
26:12
Speaker 1: from gambling.
26:13
Speaker 2: Of course, of course they do. If governments was not
26:16
Speaker 2: benefiting at all, gambling will be gone in a week
26:20
Speaker 2: or less.
26:21
Speaker 1: So why would the governments about they're getting from? So
26:24
Speaker 1: can we rightly say that the government is benefiting from
26:27
Speaker 1: the mystery of.
26:27
Speaker 2: The people, I wouldn't say that or subconsciously. Well, so
26:36
Speaker 2: if you ask a different person who has experienced ham
26:40
Speaker 2: The person would directly tell you yes they are. But
26:43
Speaker 2: I want to look at it with a balanced view. Yes,
26:49
Speaker 2: there are people, a lot of people, by the way,
26:52
Speaker 2: who have experienced harm from gambling. There are also thousands,
26:57
Speaker 2: maybe tens or hundreds of thousands, so you know, are
27:00
Speaker 2: contributing directly to the economy of the country, either by
27:04
Speaker 2: job creation and whatter view. Then there's tax remainstancies, there's
27:08
Speaker 2: licensing fees and.
27:09
Speaker 1: What you see, gamble some great jobs. Correct, do they
27:13
Speaker 1: also take jobs?
27:14
Speaker 2: They do? They do? I mean, look, there's no one
27:20
Speaker 2: so there's no window dressing for the industry. If you
27:26
Speaker 2: do bad, people should call it out.
27:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
27:30
Speaker 2: My point is having a balanced view to it. There
27:34
Speaker 2: are persons, and I'm aware of some of them who
27:37
Speaker 2: have jobs today because of this industry. Right, and then
27:43
Speaker 2: we've also had two clients who lost their jobs because
27:50
Speaker 2: of gambling.
27:50
Speaker 1: Of course, you can lose many program right. Nothing can
27:54
Speaker 1: pressing to strip you naked in life like correct can
27:57
Speaker 1: take your family from you can take friends from. Let me,
28:00
Speaker 1: there's a streets code. I don't get I on your
28:04
Speaker 1: own supply Have you heard that before? Yes? So have
28:08
Speaker 1: you found case of those who are working in gambling
28:10
Speaker 1: organizations also gamblers.
28:12
Speaker 2: Research in fact shows us that people who are working
28:15
Speaker 2: in gambling houses are at higher risk than the average individual.
28:19
Speaker 1: Outside because they feel they know the back.
28:20
Speaker 2: End, not necessarily because you're exposed to it, and they
28:27
Speaker 2: just think that is one of those things.
28:29
Speaker 1: What are the words you get your sally, you put
28:32
Speaker 1: it back? Can we also admit that an average worker
28:35
Speaker 1: for gamble organization that is hooked on gambling is your
28:37
Speaker 1: figure because it might eventually permanent your sala, your gambling.
28:42
Speaker 2: I think that it's a fit, an HR failure for
28:46
Speaker 2: you to have a staff, a member of staff in
28:50
Speaker 2: your organization, a gambling organization who is hooked on gambling.
28:54
Speaker 2: You know Virtual two definitely.
28:58
Speaker 1: Can't government track that. It's like it's a speed bet.
29:02
Speaker 2: Is government that licensed them? If you cannot track them
29:05
Speaker 2: worthy to give them a license?
29:07
Speaker 1: So government license virtual?
29:09
Speaker 2: Of course, In fact, there are operators whose activities are
29:14
Speaker 2: not on sports betting and on loto, it's on virtual
29:17
Speaker 2: that's what that's what they're selling. And if you're not
29:20
Speaker 2: an operator, directly say you are operating in nine Caerier,
29:23
Speaker 2: you'll be a bit to b licensee say you're selling
29:26
Speaker 2: your games to licensed operators within the country and they
29:29
Speaker 2: get a license with that as well. So yes, the
29:31
Speaker 2: license virtual gaming and what we have the allies with
29:34
Speaker 2: virtual gaming, and which is the conversation we're having regulators
29:36
Speaker 2: and operator. Most people who have been hooked in gambling,
29:43
Speaker 2: it's because of this virtual game and why because of
29:48
Speaker 2: the short duration. You know, so you're able to easily
29:52
Speaker 2: adjust your mood. Yeah, you advise yourself or it's not
29:56
Speaker 2: that deep. Let me go back. You know, with sports betting,
29:58
Speaker 2: you have to wait for nineteen minutes for the game.
29:59
Speaker 1: To be virtual. Two minutes some of them.
30:03
Speaker 2: Exactly, you're done.
30:06
Speaker 1: All your life savings go in too.
30:08
Speaker 2: Of course it's cheaper and then it's fast paced. So
30:12
Speaker 2: you're thinking, oh, come on. You know one part that
30:15
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't talk about because as we
30:18
Speaker 2: have sat see it. Now, we've talked about virtual we've
30:21
Speaker 2: talked about sports betting. That's ie gaming, that's online gambling.
30:26
Speaker 2: What happened to casinos?
30:28
Speaker 1: Casino is dangerous.
30:31
Speaker 2: Now again you know we're talking.
30:32
Speaker 1: About but there's online casino.
30:34
Speaker 2: Of course, there's online casino. Online casino is what leads
30:36
Speaker 2: people to the Chua, you spin exactly. It's what leads
30:40
Speaker 2: people to virtual so they almost always are altogether.
30:44
Speaker 1: You know, there are bankers blast.
30:47
Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't want to use identify as,
30:49
Speaker 2: but I doubt that there is any occupation, including the military,
30:54
Speaker 2: that we have not seen understand exactly.
31:02
Speaker 1: Wow, So what you are trying to do now is
31:08
Speaker 1: to say, all the guys, we've got to have regulations.
31:14
Speaker 1: We can of afford to have a situation where the
31:18
Speaker 1: people who claim to care about our clients losing their
31:23
Speaker 1: lives their fortune to this. But again, this is what
31:28
Speaker 1: I'm looking at every organization that has set out set
31:33
Speaker 1: out to make profit. If someone wakes up to sell caskets, yeah,
31:40
Speaker 1: it means you expect that even though we understand it
31:43
Speaker 1: natural occurrence. I was joking with my wife with something.
31:47
Speaker 1: She's a therapist, and I said that you she gets
31:54
Speaker 1: loads of clients. She is always walking back to back,
31:57
Speaker 1: And I said, if if you guys don't have clients,
32:02
Speaker 1: do you also pray for clients? Because it means you
32:05
Speaker 1: couldn't pray for the problems. You solve problems, right, I.
32:08
Speaker 2: Mean, it's like asking doctors not to pray for patients.
32:12
Speaker 1: They will come, so is this really possible? Will it
32:16
Speaker 1: be possible because these organizations, I mean, it's like we
32:20
Speaker 1: are trying to window dress betting organizations by believing that
32:27
Speaker 1: they have any sense of ethics. Okay, do you think
32:32
Speaker 1: there is the human side of these organizations that can
32:35
Speaker 1: at least be ethical that if the people who stop coming,
32:38
Speaker 1: you can because I mean, again, like I said, there
32:41
Speaker 1: are different part two and I'm trying to look at
32:43
Speaker 1: it objectively that if those organization on the online sport
32:47
Speaker 1: betting organization regulates are people bet looking at their data
32:51
Speaker 1: the frequency varirisk factors and all that, and they say people,
32:55
Speaker 1: since it's a newer pathway issue addictionally, why as the
33:01
Speaker 1: brain the body gets satisfaction when you're able to get that,
33:08
Speaker 1: so the people might move from that that can be monitored.
33:12
Speaker 1: So these likes of you can't monitor virtual because you
33:16
Speaker 1: go to a betting shop, you pay them. Anybody can
33:20
Speaker 1: pay and beton whatever I want to bet on the
33:22
Speaker 1: pressure that they are going to press in two minutes,
33:25
Speaker 1: your fortunate is decided determined, So we'll there not push
33:28
Speaker 1: them from man to fire.
33:32
Speaker 2: I get your point about switching from one product to
33:34
Speaker 2: the other, but then let me address the issue of
33:38
Speaker 2: whether gaming operators have any ethic in their operation today.
33:45
Speaker 2: Rather than saying yes or no, I'll just lay background
33:48
Speaker 2: to where we're coming from, where we are now, and
33:50
Speaker 2: then maybe give it us a point around whether it
33:55
Speaker 2: is fair to see whether they have ethics or not.
33:59
Speaker 2: The gambling industry in Nigeria is so old. However, sports
34:04
Speaker 2: petting came out I think in twenty ten, twenty twelve,
34:09
Speaker 2: twenty eleven. They're about some persons saw the opportunity in
34:13
Speaker 2: the industry, the market size, and then they started organizations.
34:18
Speaker 2: They were making it killing. No body was talking about
34:22
Speaker 2: player protection. Yeah, but then about five and a half
34:26
Speaker 2: years ago the conversation around responsible gaming started. Responsible giving
34:31
Speaker 2: correct Okay to say, look, we know that there is
34:35
Speaker 2: nothing we want to say, gambling will continue, but how
34:38
Speaker 2: about you introduce ethics into this. Yeah, So we started
34:43
Speaker 2: having that conversation. Of course, like any other new issue,
34:46
Speaker 2: there were pushbacks and then we started engaging. Now because
34:52
Speaker 2: of the work that we do, we have gaming companies
34:57
Speaker 2: that have responsible gaming officers that never have points before
35:01
Speaker 2: that is your responsibility is to find out who has
35:06
Speaker 2: used self exclusion on your platform, who has played beyond
35:11
Speaker 2: the means on your platform based on your analysis, and
35:14
Speaker 2: then send the report. Okay, So knowing where we're coming
35:19
Speaker 2: from and knowing where we are now, it will be
35:23
Speaker 2: incomplete to say that we have not made improvements.
35:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
35:29
Speaker 2: I think that the problem generally is this if the
35:33
Speaker 2: regulators don't make it a level playing ground. That is,
35:38
Speaker 2: if one operator is doing it and the other operator
35:42
Speaker 2: is not doing it, there should be punishment for the
35:44
Speaker 2: operator too who is not doing it. But then if
35:47
Speaker 2: operator says, look, I don't want to take bets from
35:51
Speaker 2: people whose lives are taking an ugly tone anymore. Operator
35:57
Speaker 2: B is not doing that, it continues to take bets.
35:59
Speaker 2: So looking at this competitive advantage, so you're making problem
36:05
Speaker 2: gambling look creative for operator B while operator A is languishing. True,
36:11
Speaker 2: So it's always a problem of the imbalance, which is
36:14
Speaker 2: why I'm saying ignorance is not always a point for them.
36:19
Speaker 2: Many of these operators are aware, in fact, by the
36:21
Speaker 2: time they show you their books about how many people
36:23
Speaker 2: have requested for self exclusion, because I mean, that's still
36:27
Speaker 2: some of the improvements that were talking about some years
36:29
Speaker 2: school it never existed, but now you're if a person
36:33
Speaker 2: is playing on the platform and it thinks, look, I
36:35
Speaker 2: think I have lost more than I have won. I
36:37
Speaker 2: don't want to do it again. You can block yourself.
36:41
Speaker 2: The government even started that's legal state now. Because when
36:44
Speaker 2: we say governments, we should be careful. There are states
36:46
Speaker 2: in Nigeria were doing absolutely nothing and people are entering
36:50
Speaker 2: into misery. But in Lego State they started safely to say, look,
36:55
Speaker 2: we know that if you go to Operator A and
36:57
Speaker 2: your self you can go to Operator BRU. If you
37:02
Speaker 2: think that you have a problem to the point that
37:04
Speaker 2: you have come to our platform, then we would exclude
37:08
Speaker 2: you from all the platforms that exists within our jurisdiction. Yeah,
37:14
Speaker 2: that is a development from them. So the question about
37:17
Speaker 2: whether the operators or the industry is ethical, I think
37:22
Speaker 2: it's a growing issue.
37:24
Speaker 1: I mean I think often times as we've seen it, no,
37:28
Speaker 1: none of such organizations would like to be ethical by themselves.
37:32
Speaker 1: I think the ethics will come in when regulators will
37:36
Speaker 1: correct correct.
37:38
Speaker 2: If you ask and ave read money launder. He doesn't
37:41
Speaker 2: want you to stop him. He's making a lot of money.
37:44
Speaker 2: But by the time the regulators decided that they have
37:47
Speaker 2: had enough, Yeah, they put their food on the ground
37:51
Speaker 2: and then now if you want to do money London Nigeria,
37:53
Speaker 2: you have to think twice.
37:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
37:55
Speaker 2: So if your percautions are that deep, if you know
37:58
Speaker 2: you're going to lose your license and lose your job,
38:00
Speaker 2: if people so, I mean, I visited a gambling company
38:04
Speaker 2: outside the country some weeks ago and they spend on
38:09
Speaker 2: the safer gambling department one point five million pounds. Wow,
38:14
Speaker 2: just on that department. We're not talking about treatments alone.
38:17
Speaker 2: Now we're talking about recruitment or staff, recruitment of psychologists.
38:21
Speaker 2: And what a view because for them, I.
38:24
Speaker 1: Mean, these things can even be automated because correct, there
38:29
Speaker 1: could be boughts that could observe the frequency. Correct, and
38:35
Speaker 1: everywhere there is correct, someone is doing these rates. That's right.
38:38
Speaker 1: And so the boats.
38:39
Speaker 2: Can interestingly in number of them have it on their platform,
38:42
Speaker 2: they just never use them.
38:45
Speaker 1: Wow.
38:45
Speaker 2: Because you're thinking about you know, you could talk to
38:49
Speaker 2: an operato and it says, well what you have said
38:53
Speaker 2: makes sense, but why should I do it? Nobody is
38:57
Speaker 2: asking me to do it from the regulator side, that's
39:00
Speaker 2: the question.
39:02
Speaker 1: So one of the looking at what you do right
39:06
Speaker 1: in practical times, how can a gambling addicts be.
39:10
Speaker 2: Helped so Interestingly, like every other kind of addiction, help
39:16
Speaker 2: is available. Go talk to somebody, see a therapists. We
39:24
Speaker 2: know we have a very terrible culture of thinking that
39:27
Speaker 2: we are man enough, we're strong. We think that therapy
39:31
Speaker 2: is for weak people, not always. A person who is
39:36
Speaker 2: hooked on gambling can definitely not help himself. In fact,
39:39
Speaker 2: if you could help himself, he would have stopped. Most
39:42
Speaker 2: times we think erroneously that we can stop. Talk to somebody.
39:45
Speaker 2: Talk to the therapist, will walk through to the process.
39:48
Speaker 2: It's for some persons is psychotherapy they just need they
39:52
Speaker 2: just need to be educated. For some others, it's something deeper. Interestingly,
39:58
Speaker 2: people don't always just fall into a diction because of
40:00
Speaker 2: money alone. Money is a secretical fact, though it is.
40:05
Speaker 2: But then there are those who are pushed into gambling
40:08
Speaker 2: harm because of the situations around them. Finance is one.
40:13
Speaker 2: Think about a person who has loved his lord, lost
40:15
Speaker 2: loved one, and then he sits at home brooding, and
40:21
Speaker 2: then a friend visits him and says, look, you're wasting
40:23
Speaker 2: your life away just thinking. Let's visit a casino and
40:27
Speaker 2: sit and wild away time. And then because of the trio,
40:31
Speaker 2: it forgets this problem. It's like drinking to forget your problem.
40:36
Speaker 2: So if its there, whether he lose this or he
40:38
Speaker 2: wins is not his concern anymore so for him, economic
40:41
Speaker 2: circum circumstance is not the reason is gambling. For him
40:45
Speaker 2: is trying to get away from a situation and then
40:48
Speaker 2: he gets necty. What about people who have high risk propensity.
40:54
Speaker 2: For such persons, it is not necessarily money for them.
40:56
Speaker 2: They think that the higher deal risk, the higher the reward. True,
41:00
Speaker 2: when you talk to them about gambling, they are wondering
41:01
Speaker 2: how much risk you know is involved. Once they see
41:04
Speaker 2: that is high risk, they put their money in it
41:06
Speaker 2: and then they get hooked. So different levels of vulnerabilities,
41:11
Speaker 2: you know, make people fall into gambling addiction. And I
41:15
Speaker 2: think that before a person gets into addiction, it has
41:19
Speaker 2: to be a very real, vulnerable situation. Because people ordinarily
41:25
Speaker 2: approach gambling, especially those who are looking for money. From
41:28
Speaker 2: the economic perspective, the average person would think, oh, if
41:32
Speaker 2: this thing is not paying me anymore, I want to stop.
41:35
Speaker 2: But one thing that operators are doing to get them,
41:38
Speaker 2: which is why there's no excuse for them, is this.
41:41
Speaker 2: Some of them will offer you free odds or three games.
41:47
Speaker 2: What they're doing Effectively, they're not losing your money, but
41:49
Speaker 2: you cannot cash out when you win. You have to
41:52
Speaker 2: put your own money. If they can keep you to
41:54
Speaker 2: play three, four or five times consistently on the platform,
41:57
Speaker 2: they've got in you already causing you're already so they
42:01
Speaker 2: understand the psychology of the player. You have to have
42:04
Speaker 2: liked our platform for you to stay there. Yeah, I
42:07
Speaker 2: mean if it was bad after your third time, you
42:09
Speaker 2: should leave.
42:12
Speaker 1: Are there? Women go? Bless A lot of.
42:14
Speaker 2: Them, a lot of them. We did the research in
42:17
Speaker 2: twenty ten, three years old now, so men, we are
42:20
Speaker 2: always careful with quoting it. We found out that while
42:23
Speaker 2: you could say two over three are men, we also
42:27
Speaker 2: can say one over three are women. So there are women,
42:33
Speaker 2: bless a number of them. In fact, there are more
42:36
Speaker 2: women gambling now than we used to have for economic reasons,
42:41
Speaker 2: more than the men. No, no, no, no, more than the men,
42:45
Speaker 2: by our treatments statistics, it's a fair cry. It's either
42:51
Speaker 2: because women ordinarily are not seeking help, or because generally
42:56
Speaker 2: the demography just tills towards the men. So boy, it's
42:59
Speaker 2: hard to tell what generally know by the data that
43:02
Speaker 2: we have. No, it's not more than the man, but
43:04
Speaker 2: we have more of them than we used to have.
43:06
Speaker 1: Do you want to share some of the of course,
43:08
Speaker 1: without mentioning names. Some of the worst gambling stories.
43:14
Speaker 2: I think that some years ago someone reached out to
43:21
Speaker 2: me around for that is something there about. Actually he
43:30
Speaker 2: had been yearning all night to call, but he was thinking, oh,
43:35
Speaker 2: they would not have opened their office. They may not
43:37
Speaker 2: call displacing the middle of the night, but of past
43:41
Speaker 2: four he could no longer hold it. You just had
43:43
Speaker 2: to call. I take the call because I mean, it
43:46
Speaker 2: was a new number wide displace it. It could be
43:47
Speaker 2: an emergency or something. And then it started wheeping. What happened?
43:55
Speaker 2: He had got dad all of his money to start
43:59
Speaker 2: his own business, and it was a lot of money.
44:03
Speaker 2: It was a whole lot of money. I mem We're
44:05
Speaker 2: talking about tens of millions that year. So he thought
44:12
Speaker 2: to himself, let me play on this platform and on
44:17
Speaker 2: that platform. If this one does not come, that one
44:19
Speaker 2: would come.
44:20
Speaker 1: That thing that tells you the money can multiply.
44:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the gambling misconception rose up again and he
44:28
Speaker 2: lost everything. So he just wanted an assurance that would
44:32
Speaker 2: get back his money. So he was weeping and asking me, Yeah,
44:35
Speaker 2: what I will get back his money from the gaming
44:39
Speaker 2: companies seasing losses. I don't think he was chasing losses
44:45
Speaker 2: for him. It was his first time and they got
44:50
Speaker 2: hooked like that lost everything first time, put in millions
44:57
Speaker 2: of high risk propensity. Like we said, reb groups.
45:02
Speaker 1: But why does it look like you're excusing greed as
45:05
Speaker 1: a major cause of gambling?
45:07
Speaker 2: Also because that would be made forwarding the individual. If
45:12
Speaker 2: your platform is harmful, I can't reduce it to greed.
45:16
Speaker 2: I'm not ruling it out, but if your platform is
45:19
Speaker 2: harmful to people, it will be unfair to say it
45:23
Speaker 2: is great.
45:23
Speaker 1: Are you saying gambling platforms.
45:25
Speaker 2: Ample potentially helpful? Gambling on whatever platform is potentially harmful.
45:30
Speaker 2: It's a risky adventure.
45:34
Speaker 1: You know, there's this thing they have in America. I've
45:39
Speaker 1: seen the I've seen big business owners like make zugerbag.
45:44
Speaker 2: Yeah.
45:45
Speaker 1: Being someone that's been questioned about the ethics of your platforms, right,
45:51
Speaker 1: do you think the government should begin to someone and
45:53
Speaker 1: questioned gambling.
45:54
Speaker 2: Absolutely, which is why we're talking about priority. If your
45:57
Speaker 2: priority as a regulator is making revenue, Yeah, you have
46:02
Speaker 2: lost the debate already because look, I have always been
46:07
Speaker 2: saying it you cannot beat that baby and ask it
46:09
Speaker 2: not to cry. If my intention is to come into
46:14
Speaker 2: your country to spend x amount year, one year, two year, three,
46:19
Speaker 2: read in terms of losses, but shouldn't be more than this.
46:23
Speaker 2: If it's more than that, I'm existing the industry. Yeah, good,
46:27
Speaker 2: And then you're asking me to pay a licensee that
46:30
Speaker 2: is nearing that amount already. And then at the end
46:34
Speaker 2: of the day, you're still asking me to pay certain
46:36
Speaker 2: amounts of money. The next thing that's come into my
46:41
Speaker 2: mind as an operator, as a business owner, is how
46:44
Speaker 2: do I make back this money? Sure, even if someone
46:48
Speaker 2: says it is off the misery of the next person,
46:52
Speaker 2: I wouldn't ordinarily care because I need to make back
46:54
Speaker 2: my bottom line.
46:56
Speaker 1: Right.
46:57
Speaker 2: So if regulators begin to say, look, yes we need
47:02
Speaker 2: the revenue, Yes the country needs money, and it trickles
47:05
Speaker 2: down from top to bottom. Because as your political office
47:08
Speaker 2: order you have you want to also consider some of
47:10
Speaker 2: the inter cases. As I get into the office, you
47:12
Speaker 2: have a target by the governor, then the government.
47:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:16
Speaker 2: So the government gives you a target, you're making it
47:18
Speaker 2: from an industry that is also making it in turn
47:20
Speaker 2: making it from the players. So if you're trying to satisfy.
47:24
Speaker 2: That's why there has to be a signergy in terms
47:27
Speaker 2: of purpose with the regulator and other government officials. Yeah,
47:32
Speaker 2: because if the internal revenue is saying, look, we need
47:35
Speaker 2: this amount of money from you, and then the governor
47:38
Speaker 2: of the state also saying we need this amount of
47:40
Speaker 2: money from you, you are under praisure as a political
47:43
Speaker 2: office order. So you're thinking, how do I make money.
47:46
Speaker 2: Let me increase the license fee. The operator who has
47:50
Speaker 2: to pay it is thinking, okay, that's it exactly, that's
47:54
Speaker 2: more money I'm spending. So when you drop a proposal
47:56
Speaker 2: and it's table to say, look, you need to begin
47:58
Speaker 2: to fund treatment, it's asking you should you take the
48:00
Speaker 2: money from because it has a big marketing budget I
48:03
Speaker 2: need to exhaust.
48:04
Speaker 1: So you're saying that the government should begin by reducing.
48:11
Speaker 2: No, I'm saying that and chase revenue. Revenue will come.
48:17
Speaker 2: So if you're asking government to reduce revenue at the
48:20
Speaker 2: end of the day, again.
48:21
Speaker 1: You know you're a very polite person. Every revenue that
48:28
Speaker 1: comes to the Gamble organization is off the mystery of someone.
48:33
Speaker 2: Largely. I would say yes. However, irregulator that is smart,
48:40
Speaker 2: No starts you cannot make enough revenue of licenses. HM,
48:47
Speaker 2: it's always from enforcement, definitely. So if I know that
48:54
Speaker 2: I will make a lot of money by chasing people
48:56
Speaker 2: who are not compliant, then make sure that comply. Answer
49:00
Speaker 2: is easy, but non compliance is expensive. True. In fact,
49:05
Speaker 2: that way people in the black market, Because we're talking
49:09
Speaker 2: about the people who are even regulated to an extent here,
49:12
Speaker 2: how about the guys in the black market who is
49:15
Speaker 2: monitoring them? Because we're assuming that when we're control gambling
49:21
Speaker 2: to it an extent, or we stop gambling within the
49:23
Speaker 2: regulated market, then the arm is gone. Not necessarily, the
49:26
Speaker 2: person who is gambling or who wants to gamble will
49:29
Speaker 2: look for it. Anyway. We used to crack a joke
49:33
Speaker 2: about the gaming operator. I'm not going to mention the name.
49:36
Speaker 2: They are a big retail brand. We used to joke
49:39
Speaker 2: that if they put their shop under the sea, people
49:42
Speaker 2: will go there to play.
49:43
Speaker 1: I know them, I know them, so.
49:47
Speaker 2: People will play anyway. So if you not stop it,
49:50
Speaker 2: what you're doing effectively is to drive them to the
49:51
Speaker 2: black market where there is no protection, and they will
49:54
Speaker 2: continue to play. Interestingly. So Nigerian sensibility is quite different
50:00
Speaker 2: in a country like they have a national regulator in
50:03
Speaker 2: n Yea. It's not the same you have thirty sixties
50:06
Speaker 2: because the city. So if Lego Stays is leading the child,
50:08
Speaker 2: what is all you're doing? What doing?
50:10
Speaker 1: So?
50:10
Speaker 2: If Lego Stays stops you from gambling because of their regulation,
50:13
Speaker 2: you go through all your state and go and gamble
50:16
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, effectively you're not You're
50:18
Speaker 2: not stopping anything. I mean before now again, I say
50:22
Speaker 2: this advisedly because somehow the black market still exists and
50:26
Speaker 2: it's quite large. It is large, it's quite quite large.
50:31
Speaker 2: There were operators who were openly, you know, doing business
50:35
Speaker 2: in Nigeria from outside Africa. Wow, openly, no license, no regulation, nothing,
50:43
Speaker 2: things that they would ordinarily not doing their jurisdiction they
50:46
Speaker 2: will do here. And then while some advocates would say
50:49
Speaker 2: why are operators doing this? I love at them and wondering,
50:52
Speaker 2: or you think that people should activate their moral path
50:56
Speaker 2: so that they would support you when your own regulators
50:59
Speaker 2: are business sleeping hmmm, you should be the one waking
51:02
Speaker 2: up to say.
51:03
Speaker 1: Then, how can you even have an effective regulator if
51:08
Speaker 1: our system is redled, destroyed bribes.
51:12
Speaker 2: That's a very important point that you have made, and
51:15
Speaker 2: I don't think that there is anyone who can explain
51:17
Speaker 2: away corruption. There's no body who can explain it. Again,
51:22
Speaker 2: it's good. It goes back to problem gambling. If and
51:28
Speaker 2: I'm not pointing things out to any regulator. I'm not
51:31
Speaker 2: saying anyone is to doin this. I'm just asking if,
51:36
Speaker 2: after paying my license, my taxes monthly, good courses, and
51:43
Speaker 2: I remit taxes from the winnings of my players, my customers,
51:50
Speaker 2: if you as a regulator still approach me for bribes,
51:55
Speaker 2: if you still approach me to buy you expensive things?
51:59
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, what moral stands do you have to regulate me?
52:07
Speaker 2: So there are deep issues. In fact, I dare say
52:11
Speaker 2: that in Africa. I mean, as of twenty twenty four,
52:14
Speaker 2: we had about forty to forty one countries who had
52:18
Speaker 2: some sort of regulation around gambling.
52:22
Speaker 1: Which countries leading that in Africa moment.
52:25
Speaker 2: I'd say Nigeria regulation. Yes, one would ordnorarily argue South Africa.
52:34
Speaker 2: Okay again I say this, advisor, I was.
52:37
Speaker 1: Going to talk about probably wonder.
52:40
Speaker 2: Now really the game and industry. So there are three
52:44
Speaker 2: countries in Africa who are leading the charge, not regulatory wise,
52:48
Speaker 2: now in terms of market size. Angeria Kenya and South Africa,
52:54
Speaker 2: and interestingly they also are the ones leading the charge
52:57
Speaker 2: in terms of regulation.
52:58
Speaker 1: Wow.
52:59
Speaker 2: So we have Tanzania, we have Uganda, we have Rwanda
53:02
Speaker 2: who are coming up really fast, you know with regulations.
53:06
Speaker 2: But in terms of structure, yes, South Africa because AGAs
53:15
Speaker 2: Responsible Gaming is over twenty years responsible gaming right, the program,
53:21
Speaker 2: the structure around responsible game is over twenty years old.
53:24
Speaker 2: In Nigeria is a little over five years old. Wow. So,
53:30
Speaker 2: but then Nigeria has caught up so much. When I
53:32
Speaker 2: say Nigeria, i'm in legal state, has got up so much.
53:36
Speaker 2: In fact, before mentioning Rwanda mentioned Botswana. Oh yeah, Buttswana.
53:44
Speaker 2: I think that last year, if we needed to do
53:47
Speaker 2: a poll, everybody would choose Botswana ahead of any other
53:50
Speaker 2: regulator in Africa.
53:51
Speaker 1: Wow.
53:52
Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of structure, in terms of regulation, you know,
53:55
Speaker 2: the president of Botswana is very very level added man
53:59
Speaker 2: right right, And the country's gambling markets is so young
54:06
Speaker 2: that you will be amissed how much work that they're done. Wow.
54:11
Speaker 2: So in fact, there are regulators who are big, there
54:13
Speaker 2: are markets that are big now that are still learning
54:15
Speaker 2: from Botswana right in terms of what they're doing. But
54:19
Speaker 2: then because of Nigeria's attention to responsible gaming in the
54:23
Speaker 2: last few years. We've also know that you know that
54:26
Speaker 2: when Nigeria decides that they want to go big on something,
54:28
Speaker 2: you hear the noisy whole lot, you know, So it
54:31
Speaker 2: looks as though the regulator again legal states, and then
54:36
Speaker 2: we've also seen some other states now who have come
54:38
Speaker 2: up with very robust laws and number states. For instance,
54:41
Speaker 2: if you check their gaming law, you'll be wondering, where
54:44
Speaker 2: have you been all the world? Wow, it's some solid stuff.
54:48
Speaker 2: We're not where we should be. My point is not
54:51
Speaker 2: to say that their day is to say, oh, there
54:55
Speaker 2: is improvements in this regard, yeah, right, but to compare
54:59
Speaker 2: with other are African countries amil taxation, responsible gaming cumulatively,
55:07
Speaker 2: I'll choose Nigeria, and then I'll choose South Africa, then Botswana,
55:11
Speaker 2: then care Wow.
55:15
Speaker 1: Before I let you go, and I just want to
55:19
Speaker 1: thank you for coming everyone on short notice. What are
55:27
Speaker 1: the markers? How do you identify? How can someone know
55:34
Speaker 1: someone who probably is still gambling ethically? I probably am
55:38
Speaker 1: going on the journey of no return? What are the markers? Right?
55:42
Speaker 2: There are very many of them. When a person begins
55:44
Speaker 2: to lie about your gambling. It doesn't matter whether I
55:47
Speaker 2: am an occasional gambler. You know that something is wrong,
55:51
Speaker 2: you're hiding it. When someone is gambling at the end
55:57
Speaker 2: of the month, doesn't gamble other times, or he gambles
56:00
Speaker 2: mouthly other times where increases is best at the end
56:03
Speaker 2: of the morning, it shows you that this person is
56:04
Speaker 2: spending his salary. True. Also, if you notice that someone
56:10
Speaker 2: is using multiple credit cards or debut cards to play
56:14
Speaker 2: on your platform, clearly is either using stolen cards or
56:19
Speaker 2: he has masked out the other card and then it
56:21
Speaker 2: needs to play. Yeah, these has signs for you. When
56:25
Speaker 2: you also notice that when you have a conversation with
56:28
Speaker 2: someone he doesn't talk about any perform gambling. You can't
56:30
Speaker 2: go take two minutes without mentioning gambling. There's a problem somewhere,
56:35
Speaker 2: you know. And then when somebody tells you that I
56:40
Speaker 2: just need to make this one back, then I'll quit.
56:45
Speaker 2: That's a mark of harm the person is headed towards.
56:48
Speaker 2: In fact, when a person begins to chase losses, the
56:50
Speaker 2: person is moving towards how serious harm because at that
56:55
Speaker 2: point you are on an ending journey. Right, so I
57:01
Speaker 2: have placed two fifty thousand a round this and then
57:03
Speaker 2: I've got Interestingly, the system will work for you. You
57:06
Speaker 2: get fifteen thousand and making it and making it, and
57:09
Speaker 2: then you continue to play until you have lost everything again.
57:12
Speaker 2: So chasing losses would also be a mar car of
57:15
Speaker 2: arm amongst many other issues.
57:17
Speaker 1: Right, So usually even when a person makes what looks
57:21
Speaker 1: like a lot, he's still going back.
57:25
Speaker 2: For us, the tests of gambling harm is not how
57:29
Speaker 2: much you've made or how much you have lost.
57:32
Speaker 1: It's what you know that.
57:36
Speaker 2: Our vulnerable ability levels are different, and pockets the depth
57:41
Speaker 2: is different. If a person wakes up one day he
57:45
Speaker 2: has a lot of money and then he spends five
57:47
Speaker 2: hundred millionaire, I mean there's no such treashold within the
57:51
Speaker 2: industry anyway. Just for an example, spend five hundred millionaire
57:54
Speaker 2: out of his trillions. For him is one of those things.
57:58
Speaker 2: For the other person hm, hm, whose only hope is
58:02
Speaker 2: the twenty thousand MIRA pay it gets and then he
58:05
Speaker 2: puts that amount compare the amounts m you would say, oh,
58:10
Speaker 2: if somebody plays with this amount of money, must be
58:13
Speaker 2: a problem gambler. Whereas the person who is a problem
58:15
Speaker 2: gambler is the one who has played less amount of money.
58:18
Speaker 1: Compared to what exactly.
58:21
Speaker 2: So whether you are winning, in fact that you're winning
58:25
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're not a problem gambler. You can win
58:28
Speaker 2: all you want. It doesn't mean that you have escaped camping.
58:33
Speaker 2: People are winning, so it will be unfair to also
58:37
Speaker 2: say that people are not winning. There are people who say, oh,
58:39
Speaker 2: we know that Manchester City is a very good club.
58:43
Speaker 2: In a season, they're not going to lose more than
58:47
Speaker 2: ten times. So I calculate what I want to put there,
58:51
Speaker 2: and then I place all my beds on Manchester City,
58:54
Speaker 2: so I know that I will win more than I
58:57
Speaker 2: would lose. That's calculation, and interestingly, because of the current
59:00
Speaker 2: form of the team, you now get such returns from it.
59:04
Speaker 2: That's not to say that you know which game is come.
59:07
Speaker 2: It's going to come. So, yes, people win. I think
59:11
Speaker 2: that it will be incomplete to now say that everybody
59:14
Speaker 2: who plays is losing all their money. There are people
59:17
Speaker 2: who definitely are winning, and I'm sure that you probably
59:22
Speaker 2: in fact winning. You know that there's something that they
59:26
Speaker 2: call in psychology. I'm trying to remember the term now,
59:31
Speaker 2: you know, encouraging another person to go ahead to play.
59:35
Speaker 2: Sometimes you don't want to gamble, but because you have
59:37
Speaker 2: enaghbored who has just one? It encourages you as well. Reinforcement,
59:43
Speaker 2: that's the word I'm looking for. Reinforcement. And it's as
59:47
Speaker 2: simple as walking in the street and then someone is
59:52
Speaker 2: just announcing lotric tickets and all of that you are
59:55
Speaker 2: not interested. Suddenly you hear someone's scream I have won,
1:00:00
Speaker 2: and then you begin to exactly you begin to think, oh,
1:00:04
Speaker 2: it could have been me. So if it was your
1:00:07
Speaker 2: parents who sent you on an errand to plait to
1:00:09
Speaker 2: to to buy something, you think, oh, I'm helping mommy.
1:00:13
Speaker 2: If it's five hundred nard they give to you, you
1:00:15
Speaker 2: want to make two thy five hundred because of the
1:00:17
Speaker 2: lottery tickets. So right, winning happens. There are people who win.
1:00:25
Speaker 1: You know, this is a very sobering one. Right, I've
1:00:30
Speaker 1: seen too many people whose lives have been erect correct
1:00:33
Speaker 1: by this, so many rooms broken, correct, relationships lost, bonds destroyed,
1:00:42
Speaker 1: trust gone. That's right because once people get oooped on gambling,
1:00:48
Speaker 1: there are the advices that comes lying stealing for those
1:00:53
Speaker 1: who are problem gamblers, substance abuse, substance abuse to deal
1:00:58
Speaker 1: with depression. Correct, it's coming, right, because it's just going
1:01:05
Speaker 1: to be anything to get money correct. And I'm just
1:01:09
Speaker 1: going to say this for those who are probably a
1:01:12
Speaker 1: few they are not at that level yet, but as
1:01:15
Speaker 1: long as you're in it, you're higher risk in the
1:01:18
Speaker 1: vidle right, and you know, and for those who are
1:01:27
Speaker 1: already at the level where you've lost too many things,
1:01:30
Speaker 1: relationships lost, trust, lost everything, get help, get help, because
1:01:41
Speaker 1: that's just one life being blown away. And I just
1:01:45
Speaker 1: want to thank you and your organization from what you
1:01:49
Speaker 1: for what you're doing. I've heard about it before and
1:01:53
Speaker 1: hearing from you personally and bring it up. Believe, I
1:01:57
Speaker 1: think that the continent is going to be a better
1:02:01
Speaker 1: place for people like you. It might not be a
1:02:04
Speaker 1: sector where people have paid attention to even know the
1:02:08
Speaker 1: volume of works you're doing, but I think that already
1:02:12
Speaker 1: you're making the difference. I want to thank you for
1:02:14
Speaker 1: coming to the class right, Thank
1:02:16
Speaker 2: You, Thank you very much for having I appreciate it.