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Desafíos de la transición energética · Movilidad Renovable

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of times become unforgettable, announce yourself in radio n renewable mobility. The platform
1:04
program for renewable fuels very good afternoon. We continue with our almost didactic journey
1:19
and dedicated to renewable fuels. During all the previous programmes, we have therefore
1:23
made several references to that road map that marked the European Union for decarbonisation,
1:29
for the energy transition and also for the road that Spain is going to follow,
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a path that poses serious challenges and, in some respects, doubts as
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to whether it will be achieved, because some of the goals that politicians have
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set seem truly unattainable utopian. In May of the 22nd, for example,
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the Ry Power and U plan was presented in response to the difficulties and disruption
1:52
caused to the world energy market by the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a plan
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aimed at ending the European Union' s dependence on possible fuels and boosting renewable
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energies. The point is whether or not they' re going that right way.
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We will talk about this in the next few minutes here in Renewable Mobility,
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the platform programme for renewable fuels, Renewable Mobility. With Miguel San Martín
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begins the Renewable Mobility meeting. Before starting the program I spoke with Inés Cardenal,
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spokesman for the Platform for Renewable Fuels, which today is an interesting day
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and that we will learn a lot Inés how about very good afternoon, good
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afternoon, a luxury program today that cannot be missed the listeners of Capital Radio,
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because we already have with us Mariano Marta Toques, professor of merit of
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the University of Barcelona, professor, how very good as we are good afternoon
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Hello, very good afternoon, since nothing delighted to be with you and also
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Vicente Cortés, who is president of INERCO and professor of the University of Sevillo.
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Vincent how very good that we are very good evening, really also delighted
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above all, to share Tertulia eating professed in March, because inés tell us
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a little bit raises what we can talk about. Well, as I was
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saying today, we have a show fight, because we have two people who
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are very, very expert on some of the issues we want to deal with.
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And fundamentally, these are the challenges that the energy transition, as Europe
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is designing it, because the challenges we presented were. We can talk about
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the dependence it will generate on critical minerals. We are talking about leaving out
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certain technologies, such as the capture and use of ceo two, which could
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have a very important role in reducing missions. Therefore, this regulation, which
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we have already been talking about in some of these programmes, which is primarily
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aimed at electrification, because we believe it poses very interesting challenges. That'
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s good, because both Professor Marzo and Professor Cortés are going to explain us
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a lot better. And, well, it' s going to be a
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very interesting program, because we started and it seems to me with this professor
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Mariano Marzo, as Inés pointed out, how do you see those challenges that
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have posed in that road map, what do we have to look at and
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at what time does it go to that development? Let' s see?
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The challenges are so many. I would somehow focus them on two big groups.
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One is to refer, for some crucial issue, which is the imas
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of Dame as well and another is good governance, that is, good regulation.
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I am telling you this because, for example, we take it for
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granted that the road map drawn up by the European Union, because the technologies
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that have to lead to net zeroing by two thousand and fifty, are practically
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defined clearly, when in reality we know, for example, from a recent
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report by the International Energy Agency of two thousand and twenty- three, that
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on that road towards zero net emissions by two thousand and fifty, only twenty
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- five percent of all that we would need to reduce emissions. I'
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m talking on a global level. At this time, not that the world
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has to avoid Only twenty- five percent are mature technologies. The rest are
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distributed among technologies that are still in prototype states to about fifteen percent, another
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twenty percent, which would be technologies that are in demonstration phase, and the
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rest, about fifty- five percent, sixty percent are technologies that are in
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the process, let' s say market capture. They are technologies that need
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some form of support, they need adequate regulation in order to get a market
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large enough to allow them to scale up their production and, therefore, to
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lower prices. Therefore, the best thing we could do is not have prefixed
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dogmatic stances on what technologies are going to lead us towards that energy transition,
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but to profess a strong spirit of technological neutrality, to let technologies compete with
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each other to see which Mayan is efficient in terms of mission reduction and in
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terms of prices. But let us not forget this point that I say we
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are far from having all the mature technologies that are needed for that energy transition.
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Therefore, to close the path to which they are opening their way and
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which are beginning to become a reality, because it seems to me that it
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goes precisely against the second point that I have said, the second condition for
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the energy transition. The first was more and more and the second was good
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governance. But there, Professor Cortés, I don' t know how Mariano
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Marzo said, but of course, we come in with this dogmatization many times
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of the road maps, the politicians who end up penalizing one another in favor
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of each other according to the interests of each country. Of course, of
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course, well, I absolutely agree with what you have indicated to Professor March.
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What happens, moreover, is that twenty- five percent that are mature,
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because it has him in many cases. If you can give an example,
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an enormously needed journey ahead, and the clearest example that I will be
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able to manufacture electrolytic hydrogen. You see, indeed, you can and are
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made acquisitions in the market of electrolyzers of the two technologies such alkaline there is
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pell but those technologies have a huge journey ahead, because you have to improve
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efficiency, useful life, etcetera, etcetera. And besides, they' re
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going to be, probably doesn' t have to say cannibalized, but they
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' re going to be somehow going to appear a huge competition from other technologies
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that are much more attractive from the industrial point of view. Therefore, and
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returning to the point he has put on the table by the omarzos of technological
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neutrality and rhythm, what does not make much sense is that a path should
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be set with certain technologies to achieve objectives that are set without taking into account
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precisely the time of evolution of the technology. Technological evolution has its time to
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mention everything for March and a question. Indeed, they are called the levels
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of technological development from one to nine feet as this can be accelerated slightly with
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more investment. But if I have to do some tests, the tests have
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a duration and they have an acquisition period, a confidence in the behavior and
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durability of everything I' m using. I cannot speed up that, so
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we are going to be wrong and, in fact, we are going along
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that path, unfortunately, and we do not show that it is the market
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and technologists who in the end have to select the most efficient and environmentally efficient
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ways to achieve the Sons that are painted by the European Commission, that the
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objectives are made, technology is defined and now we are going to see how
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we do not achieve it. And you think that in the end that José
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Marzo Cortés will happen, that in the end, so to speak, the
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market will put every technology in place, because I believe that yes, that
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is to say and in fact, is what is happening. We are attending,
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for example, in the case of the European Union, to what I
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say a similar process or that reminds me of my years as a student or
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an opponent, it was a process in which you mark a few dates and
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from the beginning everything is very nice. Everything is planned such a day,
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such a subject, etcetera, etcetera. And what' s going on is
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that you don' t get there in the end. But to solve this
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bad planning based on what or Professor Cortés, it also turns out that what
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you have to do is to continually modify the road map and say well,
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don' t worry. What we have not done so far is that we
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will do it much faster and better in the future. So what he said
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was what happened to us when we prepared the exams that in the end you
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have a lot of stuff left to prepare in a very long time previews I
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think that really the market and the technology and more because we are in a
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global competition, not only from the European Union, because it will put politics
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in place, but we will not achieve the objectives of energy transition. And
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it cannot be that Ukraine' s own war has somewhat accelerated this process.
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And as an acceleration, the rush is not too good. The good cut
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teacher is that the generation gave rise to the Repower re U, which you
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mentioned the introduction. But that Power AIU, in particular, had and has
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two objectives that are hardly going to be achieved, in my opinion, that
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are ten million after years of production in the European Union and ten million after
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years of Hydrogno I mean import, that are huge quantities of electorizers of land
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of photomontaica electricity of waters that, in my opinion, will hardly be able
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to be achieved. Then what will happen if what you have done for the
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orbs, that is, will be achieved objectives. But, in the meantime,
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this sense of urgency is a term that seems picturesque to me. The
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climate urgency I do not see frankly, because it moves in a technological urgency.
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And the climate urgency and the technological urgency, in my opinion, because
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they are not substantiated, which is why there is a problem in all of
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this is that this adoption where in the end some sectors are going to have
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to adopt the technologies because they have mission reduction obligations. For example, the
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transport sector needs to reduce its emissions. In the directive network three fourteen and
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a half percent from here to two thousand and thirty by means of or a
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use of advanced biofuels and the famous renewable fuels of non- biological origin.
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Well, that shoe that tightens because if there are no sanctions, it'
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s going to lead to the end that we' re going to have to
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install manufacturing plants for this type of product at a really uncompetitive price. And
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that problem that technology is expensive because it is not evolved, the process is
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not efficient, because it needs improvements. It originates a product that is expensive
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whose cost is transferred to the entire value chain. That is what really concerns
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me is that in many cases I believe that the European citizen is not aware
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that this decarbonisation policy, which I call defosilisation. By the way, that
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would be for another dialogue. That process is going to lead to an increase
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in tenable costs, because the entire value chain is going to be affected by
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this generation. If you haven' t commented on a subject, I think
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that Professor Marzo here also believes that he can very much illustrate the dependencies that
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we have realized that we have from the outside that we have them. Europe
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had left. Supply security was not in the debate and with this bet on
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electrification. Professor Cortés also cited the unloading of transport, because we are going
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to generate dependencies of new materials that are concentrated in many fewer countries that I
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think are very worrying for the strategic security of Europe. Professor March, the
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point is that in this process let' s say defosilization, as I said
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green let' s say from our energy sources, because being on which we
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depend in the European Union and Spain as much, at about seventy percent at
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this time so that we have an idea of the magnitude of the challenge we
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have, because we are driving. Let' s say the whole electrification process
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from renewables, which, by the way, is not synonymous with decarbonization electrification
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either. Because the electrication in the scenarios, let' s say more optimistic
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at two thousand fifty will cover fifty- five percent, no more than say
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the final consumption of energy, with which there is room for all renewable fuels
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and many. Let' s say other sources that are also renewable even if
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they are not electricity and in that process we do not realize that if we
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go to renewable energies as the basis of the whole system, because that means
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moving to a dependence on certain minerals that in order to have an idea in
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two thousand forty to achieve the climate objectives, it turns out that the current
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production of minerals for clean energy technologies must multiply globally between four and six times
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to one thousand forty. This, for example, and in this the technology
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that is going to be more intensive in these minerals are electric vehicles or electrification
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of transport and batteries. Somehow, for example, so that we have an
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idea of the production of lithium from here to two thousand forty in relation to
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the production of two thousand twenty. It has to be multiplied by forty-
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two to somehow follow the pace that has been set. Let' s say
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the objectives, let' s say the fight against climate change and that'
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s applicable to another crowd. Let us say of these minerals, with which
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we raise ourselves and come to the top of the issue that is very important
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and hidden in the debate. Energy transition, as is being proposed by the
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European Union, or by the United Nations, etc, is an extractive transition.
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We will move from extracting oil, gas and coal, to extracting a
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whole set of minerals without which that transition will not be possible. It is
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a problem that Europe, that the European Union, which does not have too
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much coal or what it does not have, is oil, and I am
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talking about the European Union, Europe, because we would have Norway, and
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so on. In this case it is going to go from the pan to
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the fire, to depend on these fossil fuels, to depend on supply chains,
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critical minerals, because this concept is very important. We have to deal
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with supply chains in which they are controlled in many of their key links of
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the chain by China, which can be, as already being demonstrated with the
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electric vehicle these days, the great beneficiary, the great ever greater power in
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this new energy transition that we are considering. Thank you very much, Professor
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Marzo and speaking, in addition to raw materials, that we are somehow limiting
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the raw materials that we can use in this transition process, Professor Cortés,
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we are also doing a little the same with the possibilities that the use of
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captured ceados has. True, they are setting aside a little bit in Europe.
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Well, fortunately, and I' ve been in this capture thing for
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two more than fifteen years. Fortunately, the issue is changing, but it
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is changing out of necessity, not out of absolute trust. And I explain
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what I mean by necessity. That is to say, the Commission has set
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itself a zero net mission target for the two thousand and fifty zero target,
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which means that we must compensate for what we cannot fail to issue for putting
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agriculture directly and how it is compensated by catching two and combining it permanently in
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product or storing the subsoil. Then it turns out that suddenly the capture of
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ugly two is essential to achieve zero net emissions. But then there is a
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second very interesting aspect, which is that the Commission, from the point of
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view of sustainable mobility, wants to focus on the fact that the fuels to
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be used are advanced biofuels and the famous RF renewable fuels of origin or biological,
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the advanced corbonostes, we can treat them at another time. I want
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to take the line of rf nbos. The rfinbos start from hydrogens, by
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the way, whose electronizers, from which they are marketed today, also have
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critical minerals. Tacual. There we also have another delicate point, as the
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teacher mentioned, but it turns out that to manufacture from hydrogen, a series
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of products that everyone sounds at the moment, already as they are, for
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example, methanol and e fuells. I need geo two caramba and talk about
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it all of a sudden. Turns out geo two is a very journalistic expression.
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The ugly two go from villain to hero, that is, from something
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you have to try to stop, to broadcast, to something that is absolutely
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essential to manufacture methanol and fulls. Well, now it' s changed.
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You have to catch yourself or two. Of course, there is a significant
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distinction. Two if it' s biogenic, then perfect. What happens is
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that it' s not so much biomass. And, moreover, with the
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restrictions placed on the European Commission' s renewables directive on the use of biomass
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for energy uses, it will become increasingly complicated. He has an exercise in
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realism. The commissions said good. I will accept ceo two fossils up to
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two thousand thirty- six if it is of electricity production and up to two
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thousand forty- one if it is of industrial origin, so now we have
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the paradox that we must capture ourselves or two fossils to manufacture methane and fulls
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that will be used as fuels. Well, it' s true that somehow
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a second life is given to that molecule of sixteen two carbon atoms and emissions
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are reduced, but that' s why it' s not about decarbonizing.
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I can' t decarbonize the metal, I can' t decarbonize them and
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it was if they have carbon, it' s defosilized, so, I
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repeat third boz of villain to necessary hero, Professor Marto, who calls it
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below. What I meant Support in other words of what Professor Cortés has commented
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is very simple. It is a question of using circular economy, of converting
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something that until now was a residue that we wanted to get rid of,
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therefore, of valuing it, valuing it economically and making it a resource,
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no more or less, as we want to do with many other substances that
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surround us in our society of waste. Resource is the key word for somehow
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reducing the emissions of this dous and it is not just about reducing emissions for
22:44
sectors that cannot do so. Since we are zero net emissions, it turns
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out that we will also have to start removing cidos from the atmosphere, which
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is another issue, that is, once we stop dirtying in quotation marks we
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will have to clean up everything that we have soiled. Therefore, those technologies
23:06
that we now need for zero net emissions targets. In two thousand and fifty,
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these technologies, let' s say capture and storage of the twelve,
23:19
are going to become the philosopher' s stone, without which it is not
23:25
going to be possible in any way to face seriously from the middle of the
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century, in order not to exceed one five degrees Celsius of temperature increase compared
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to pre- industrial levels at the end of the century. If you allow
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me to look, I think Professor Marzo has given a key too, which
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is the circular economy and we are also seeing, with recent examples, that
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renewable fuels are already being marketed with different waste. Courtesy professor. Something that
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needs to be contributed to this opening up by the professor is very interesting,
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because I have previously announced that it was for another debate, but I am
24:07
going to speak very briefly on this subject. It is because the Commission wants
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renewable fuels of biological origin and advanced biofuels and what are the raw materials for
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advanced biofuels. So a huge list that includes three household parts of the food
24:21
industry, farms, cattle farmers, semi- cultures, cooking oils used in
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carasas animals, olive oil residue season. In fact, the question is to
24:30
try to exploit all waste by technological means. Unfortunately, returning to the beginning,
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it is not even harder enough to make renewable fuels, making it texible.
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This is the scheme, that is to say, which certainly has an
24:48
impact on the issue of clear security of supply. If I have those fuels,
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excuse me, those residues that I can turn into fuels in enough quantity
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and I have the processes when they' re good. There, somehow we
25:00
started to reduce energy dependence on the outside. The process is long, it
25:07
needs your time. Time and investment overruns must be measured well soon can lead
25:11
to sunken costs and lack of competitiveness for the second generation and it is not
25:18
possible to run more than technology allows. Conclusion, Professor Mariano Marzado, 30
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seconds. Well, I think that somehow the issue is a topic We have
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talked a lot about technology, innovation, research, good governance, and this
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good governance is somehow going through a pact that allows nobody to leave out.
25:52
We need in some way a commitment involving all two governments, businesses, finance,
26:02
citizens, that we cannot leave anyone out of this great pact for reasons
26:07
such as ideological, sectarian or electoral opportunity. Let us take this as a
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case in point, because what we are at stake is a lot, therefore,
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my appeal and more and more technological neutrality, good governance and the task
26:30
of all, therefore, inclusive. That' s what Mariano Marzo Vicente Cortés
26:33
stayed with. Thank you so much for joining us and until a next time,
26:37
very well. Thank you very much, thank you and inés until the
26:41
next program. Good afternoon. Thank you. Thank you very much. S
26:56
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