Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #315 Blinded Me With Science - More From the Dr's Desk

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#315 Blinded Me With Science - More From the Dr's Desk · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now, whether you share the bed with the kids or
0:12
Speaker 2: not during those first six months, it doesn't have any
0:15
Speaker 2: association or correlation with either positive or negative outcomes.
0:19
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
0:23
Speaker 1: and dad.
0:23
Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the author of six
0:27
Speaker 2: books about raising happy families and the founder of happy
0:30
Speaker 2: families dot com DOTU. Kylie is my wife and mum
0:34
Speaker 2: to our six daughters. And Kylie, are you going to
0:37
Speaker 2: be okay for today's podcast?
0:39
Speaker 3: Look, I'm sounding a bit naisaly, but we're going to
0:41
Speaker 3: get through it.
0:42
Speaker 2: It's a cold, everyone, It's just a cold. We don't
0:45
Speaker 2: have any worries. And we know that it's a cold
0:47
Speaker 2: because when you've got COVID, apparently there's not a whole
0:50
Speaker 2: lot of what's the word congestion, I think would be.
0:53
Speaker 3: The polite word for it, congested.
0:55
Speaker 2: And you can still taste food, yes, and apparently when
0:58
Speaker 2: you've got COVID you can't taste it.
1:00
Speaker 3: So well, lucky, we're confined to our little office space.
1:04
Speaker 3: We're not sharing it with anyone.
1:05
Speaker 2: Goalie and just what a quick shout out to anyone
1:08
Speaker 2: who's lockdown, like half of Australia right now, we are
1:11
Speaker 2: with you in spirit because it's just so tough. I
1:16
Speaker 2: was talking to somebody just a little bit earlier this
1:19
Speaker 2: week who said she was in Melbourne by the way,
1:22
Speaker 2: and she said, I said, so has Lockdown five going?
1:24
Speaker 2: She said, lockdown five million, two hundred and seventy eight thousand,
1:28
Speaker 2: like just over it.
1:29
Speaker 3: I did see a meme the other day that said
1:32
Speaker 3: three more lockdowns before Christmas is here. That is not funny,
1:35
Speaker 3: but the countdown has beengun for Christmas.
1:38
Speaker 2: Please know. Yeah, hey, we've We've got a really exciting
1:42
Speaker 2: episode for our podcast today and a lot to get through.
1:45
Speaker 2: This is a Doctor's Desk episode for those of you
1:47
Speaker 2: who arek new to the podcast. Once every month, once
1:50
Speaker 2: every fortnight, I collect a bunch of new studies that
1:54
Speaker 2: have come through and talk about what science is telling
1:56
Speaker 2: us about parenting. And today four in a developmental progression,
2:01
Speaker 2: and I think all four of them are going to
2:03
Speaker 2: be interesting to you. The first one what COVID has
2:05
Speaker 2: done to rates of post natal depression, How COVID is
2:09
Speaker 2: affecting post natal depression around the world. Second one, the
2:13
Speaker 2: idea about co sleeping. Is it good or bad for
2:16
Speaker 2: attachment to pull the kids into bed with you and
2:21
Speaker 2: co sleep. It's a controversial topic, and some new research
2:24
Speaker 2: sheds light on whether it's good, bad, or are otherwise.
2:30
Speaker 2: Then we're going to talk about vaccinations and how to
2:33
Speaker 2: help kids to manage vaccinations better without the distress and
2:37
Speaker 2: the drama that so often accompanies those needles. And that's
2:39
Speaker 2: kind of timely, right because even as adults, we're going
2:41
Speaker 2: and getting vaccinations everywhere. I've had both of mine. I'm
2:44
Speaker 2: all vaccinated. We just need you to get better so
2:47
Speaker 2: that we can send you off to get yours. And
2:49
Speaker 2: then the fourth thing that we're going to talk about
2:51
Speaker 2: is how to get teenagers to actually listen to us.
2:53
Speaker 2: Some new research on that, So Kylie, let's talk first
2:56
Speaker 2: of all about rates of post natal depression among new
3:00
Speaker 2: mums during lockdown. And this matters because a lot of
3:04
Speaker 2: our audience either having kids or have got friends who
3:06
Speaker 2: are having kids, and we need to be across this.
3:09
Speaker 2: So what did the research basically show From what you've
3:13
Speaker 2: read in the paper that I sent you.
3:15
Speaker 3: Well, it's suggesting that postnatal depression rose sharply during COVID lockdowns. Yeah,
3:20
Speaker 3: and you'd expect that considering the challenges that mums have
3:26
Speaker 3: just in normal day to day life. Now we've got
3:29
Speaker 3: the added stress of everybody on top of each other.
3:33
Speaker 3: There is no downtime for these mums, and they're also
3:37
Speaker 3: having to juggle schooling with older kids and husbands working
3:43
Speaker 3: from home, worried about whether or not they can make
3:45
Speaker 3: ends meet. Like, there's so many challenges, and then on
3:48
Speaker 3: top of all of that, they don't even get to
3:50
Speaker 3: see the people that they love outside of their own
3:53
Speaker 3: little family unit.
3:54
Speaker 2: The women first filled in a survey which measured symptoms
3:58
Speaker 2: of postnatal depression. Then they share them their own personal
4:00
Speaker 2: social networks and listed up to twenty five people and
4:03
Speaker 2: explained who they were and what the relationship was. And
4:05
Speaker 2: once they shared all that information with the researchers, they
4:08
Speaker 2: reported on who in that network they'd seen in person
4:13
Speaker 2: or who they chatted with on the phone or via
4:16
Speaker 2: a video call or via text or WhatsApp just in
4:20
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks. And what the research showed
4:24
Speaker 2: was really high levels of depressive symptoms among the new mothers,
4:27
Speaker 2: with forty seven point five percent reporting symptoms that met
4:31
Speaker 2: the threshold of diagnosis of postnatal depression. Thirty four point
4:37
Speaker 2: six percent of the group reported particularly high levels.
4:42
Speaker 3: That's more than a third of an increase in such
4:46
Speaker 3: a short period of time.
4:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, really really significant, and what the researchers have essentially
4:50
Speaker 2: said is takes a village to roise child. Social networks
4:54
Speaker 2: are crucial if we're going to support parents and babies,
4:57
Speaker 2: especially in that time after birth, and the impact of
5:00
Speaker 2: COVID nineteen on your parents is really really significant. Take
5:05
Speaker 2: home message I reckon out of this very important study.
5:09
Speaker 2: It's only a small study because it's hard to get
5:10
Speaker 2: this data during COVID. Take home messages. If you know
5:13
Speaker 2: somebody having a baby, do everything you can to be
5:16
Speaker 2: in their lives as so long as it's not overly intrusive,
5:18
Speaker 2: as long as they want you there be in their lives.
5:20
Speaker 2: Because we know with that question that the quality of
5:23
Speaker 2: connections that people experience, especially as a new mum. One
5:27
Speaker 2: mum said, and I quote, you're only a first time
5:30
Speaker 2: mum once and I was really looking forward to this
5:32
Speaker 2: time and making new mum friends. I think I'm most
5:35
Speaker 2: sad about missing out on that. So not only does
5:38
Speaker 2: Grandma not get to spend time or Grandpa get to
5:40
Speaker 2: spend time with the kids. But you can't kind of
5:43
Speaker 2: go and do all the stuff that you might typically
5:45
Speaker 2: have done the same way that we've always done it.
5:47
Speaker 2: And that has a really significant impact.
5:50
Speaker 3: I think back to the times that we've welcomed babies
5:53
Speaker 3: into our lives and there's so much excitement about introducing
5:57
Speaker 3: your little one to all of the important people in
6:00
Speaker 3: your world, and for so many families, they're not having
6:02
Speaker 3: those opportunities.
6:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they shout out to everyone who's overseas and
6:05
Speaker 2: can't even get back into Australia so that they can
6:07
Speaker 2: see their grand kids for the first time that have
6:09
Speaker 2: been born in COVID because thirty five thousand Australians still
6:12
Speaker 2: can't get in because there's not enough space in Australian
6:15
Speaker 2: quarantine hotels right now. It's just it's really tough. And
6:18
Speaker 2: this is the sort of stuff that literally literally creates
6:21
Speaker 2: things like postnatal depression. COVID is rough. Okay, let's move
6:25
Speaker 2: the conversation along to our second study. This was published
6:28
Speaker 2: in the Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics and it's
6:33
Speaker 2: about bed sharing in the first six months of life.
6:36
Speaker 3: I find this really interesting because so often when we
6:39
Speaker 3: talk to parents, one of the things that they really
6:41
Speaker 3: really struggle with in their own relationships is the fact
6:46
Speaker 3: that they have children in their beds, and it has
6:49
Speaker 3: such a huge impact on your capacity to connect as
6:53
Speaker 3: husband and wife and get sleep.
6:56
Speaker 2: I thought you're going to say, get something else. Then
6:58
Speaker 2: I thought you're going to say get some. Get it's some.
7:02
Speaker 3: It's so significant, and yet there is so much I'm
7:05
Speaker 3: going to say guilt around whether or not we're doing
7:08
Speaker 3: the right thing by shoving our children off into their
7:10
Speaker 3: own beds and pushing them away.
7:13
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, and co sleeping. The attachment parenting style has
7:16
Speaker 2: really promoted co sleeping as it's really important for infant
7:20
Speaker 2: mother attachment. It's really important for infant behavioral outcomes, it's
7:23
Speaker 2: really important for bonding and sensitivity. And this study looked
7:27
Speaker 2: directly at all of those things. What they basically found
7:29
Speaker 2: was that bed sharing was common at full term. In
7:32
Speaker 2: other words, the baby's born and parents are bringing their
7:35
Speaker 2: kids into the bed once they're born at a rate
7:38
Speaker 2: of about forty forty one point two percent in this
7:40
Speaker 2: particular study. I was surprised that it was that high.
7:43
Speaker 2: We've never actually done a co sleeping thing. We've brought
7:46
Speaker 2: the kids into our bedroom and had their cot or
7:49
Speaker 2: their basonetes set up in the bedrooms that they're close
7:51
Speaker 2: to us, but we've never actually slept with them in
7:53
Speaker 2: our bed, and I've sometimes wondered, oh, did we do
7:55
Speaker 2: the wrong thing? Like I've had a little bit of
7:57
Speaker 2: dad guilt around that we are parenting expert guilt. I
7:59
Speaker 2: wish we'd had the kids in the bed with us.
8:01
Speaker 2: Forty one point two percent of people said Yep, we're
8:03
Speaker 2: doing it. That had dropped down by three months to
8:05
Speaker 2: twenty two percent of people who were doing it, and
8:08
Speaker 2: then it bumped up again at six months to twenty
8:11
Speaker 2: seven point five percent, and at eighteen months it was
8:14
Speaker 2: back up to thirty one point three percent. So I
8:17
Speaker 2: just thought that was an interesting trajectory to follow. But
8:20
Speaker 2: here's what the results show. There were no associations between
8:25
Speaker 2: bed sharing during the first six months of that child's
8:28
Speaker 2: life and infant mother attachment infant behavioral outcomes at eighteen months.
8:35
Speaker 2: Also no associations between bed sharing during those first six
8:37
Speaker 2: months and maternal bonding or sensitivity at any consequent assessment points,
8:45
Speaker 2: specifically at eighteen months. In other words, whether you share
8:49
Speaker 2: the bed with the kids or not during those first
8:51
Speaker 2: six months, it doesn't have any association or correlation with
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Speaker 2: either positive or negative outcomes about attachment, about behavior, about bonding,
9:01
Speaker 2: or about how sensitive you are as a parent.
9:03
Speaker 3: I would think that it would be much more important
9:08
Speaker 3: for us as parents to be responsive to our children
9:11
Speaker 3: as opposed to losing sleep by sharing a bed with
9:15
Speaker 3: our children.
9:16
Speaker 2: And I just feel so much pressure relieved when I
9:19
Speaker 2: read that study. Yeah, and I love what you've just said.
9:21
Speaker 2: We didn't plan that, but it's beautiful because you can
9:24
Speaker 2: be so much more responsive when they're awake if you've
9:27
Speaker 2: had a good night's sleep, and you're probably going to
9:29
Speaker 2: have a bed night sleep if they're not in the
9:31
Speaker 2: bed kicking you out and tossing and turning and leaving
9:34
Speaker 2: you sleeping, wondering if you're accidentally going to roll onto
9:37
Speaker 2: them or anything like that. So I think that it's
9:40
Speaker 2: a really important and interesting study. We're not discouraging it.
9:42
Speaker 2: By the way. It says that there are no neither
9:44
Speaker 2: positive nor negative outcomes from sleeping in the bed, So
9:47
Speaker 2: if you really want to go for your life, but
9:49
Speaker 2: if you're feeling guilty about it, but you're doing it
9:51
Speaker 2: because you feel like you have to. Don't because the
9:54
Speaker 2: research now is saying this is something that the bloggers,
9:58
Speaker 2: the well being bloggers that are out there, it might
10:00
Speaker 2: be promoting, but we don't have scientific evidence to support it.
10:03
Speaker 2: And I kind of like that, all right, So let's
10:06
Speaker 2: take a quick break, and right after the break, we're
10:08
Speaker 2: going to talk about vaccinations and talking to teenagers who
10:12
Speaker 2: are in trouble.
10:13
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Family's podcast.
10:16
Speaker 2: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because
10:19
Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families
10:23
Speaker 2: dot com dot au.
10:25
Speaker 3: It's the Happy Family's Podcast, the podcast for the time
10:28
Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now and today is
10:31
Speaker 3: Justin's doctor's desk geek out moment. He loves the research
10:35
Speaker 3: and he loves to pull it to pieces so that
10:38
Speaker 3: he can help each of us understand how we might
10:42
Speaker 3: be better parents as a result.
10:44
Speaker 2: I'm really enjoying it. I'm so glad that you've sent
10:45
Speaker 2: my delight.
10:48
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'm actually a little bit excited about
10:50
Speaker 3: this one because vaccinations is.
10:52
Speaker 2: Well, it's on everyone's mind right now. It is on.
10:54
Speaker 3: Everyone's mind right now. But as a parent, I remember
10:58
Speaker 3: that moment when I had to have our first child,
11:01
Speaker 3: Chanelle was getting vaccinated, and oh my goodness, my heart
11:05
Speaker 3: strings were being torn apart.
11:08
Speaker 2: Here you are, sweetheart. I'm taking you into the doctor's
11:10
Speaker 2: office so that they can stick something in you, and
11:12
Speaker 2: it's gonna hurt, probably for a couple of days, like
11:14
Speaker 2: you're gonna ever saw Armen.
11:16
Speaker 3: I was a mess. You actually had to come with me.
11:18
Speaker 3: I was absolutely like I was a mess. My doctor
11:22
Speaker 3: actually suggested that I might need to leave here in
11:25
Speaker 3: the room because I was so distressed. I walked out
11:29
Speaker 3: of the room and then realized what.
11:30
Speaker 2: Am I doing.
11:31
Speaker 3: I'm leaving her all by herself so she can be jabbed.
11:34
Speaker 3: So I walked back in. I was there, You were there,
11:37
Speaker 3: but I couldn't. I just I couldn't leave her. But
11:40
Speaker 3: as a result, she was distressed, yes, for ages. Afterwards,
11:44
Speaker 3: we walked out and she screamed and screamed and screamed,
11:48
Speaker 3: and I felt so bad.
11:50
Speaker 2: Now, just before we go on, I want to be
11:53
Speaker 2: absolutely explicit in what I'm about to say. Vaccines are
11:57
Speaker 2: nothing short of a miracle. Vaccines have said so many
12:01
Speaker 2: millions if not billions of lives around this planet, and
12:03
Speaker 2: we want to share this science with you because while
12:06
Speaker 2: we don't have a COVID vaccine for kids yet or
12:08
Speaker 2: none that's been approved as safe for kids at this point,
12:12
Speaker 2: we know that kids are getting vaccinated for all sorts
12:13
Speaker 2: of stuff all the time anyway, and eventually a COVID
12:15
Speaker 2: vaccine is going to pretty much be compulsory for everyone
12:18
Speaker 2: based on the way things are going. And we are
12:20
Speaker 2: supportive of vaccines. But if the kids have to get
12:22
Speaker 2: a vaccination, whether it's for measles, mumps, and rubella, or
12:25
Speaker 2: whether it's for who knows, there are so many different
12:28
Speaker 2: vaccines that are out there now, or whether it's us
12:30
Speaker 2: going and getting one, it's worth knowing what brand new
12:32
Speaker 2: science tells us about how we can help our children
12:36
Speaker 2: to deal with the distress associated with getting a needle.
12:39
Speaker 3: Did it say anything about how you can how the
12:40
Speaker 3: parents deal with it?
12:41
Speaker 2: No? No, no, no it didn't, But we've got we're
12:44
Speaker 2: glad to say that I actually did work it out
12:46
Speaker 2: over time. Well, I was going to say, I feel
12:48
Speaker 2: like we've kind of got this right, because other than
12:50
Speaker 2: that experience our kids, I mean, nobody looks forward to
12:54
Speaker 2: a needle. Nobody's begging for a vaccination and saying, oh,
12:57
Speaker 2: give it to me. I love this, But our kids
12:59
Speaker 2: respond really well. Now and tell me what you've tell
13:02
Speaker 2: me what we've done, and then I'll tell you if
13:04
Speaker 2: that's consistent with what the research shows.
13:06
Speaker 3: The first time children are really aware of it is
13:09
Speaker 3: about that four year old when they have whatever vaccinations
13:12
Speaker 3: they have before, the one.
13:13
Speaker 2: That we've got. The boxes stick for all of our kids.
13:15
Speaker 2: I can't remember what it.
13:16
Speaker 3: Is either, but by four or four years of age,
13:19
Speaker 3: you can have a really intelligent conversation with your child.
13:22
Speaker 3: And so as vaccinations would come up, I would actually
13:25
Speaker 3: sit down with each of the kids and I would
13:27
Speaker 3: tell them that we were going to the doctors and
13:29
Speaker 3: that they would have a needle. And inevitably they all
13:31
Speaker 3: looked at me like.
13:32
Speaker 2: I know what a needle In their eyes, yes, totally.
13:35
Speaker 3: And so we talked about that and I said, nobody
13:38
Speaker 3: likes getting needles. I don't know anybody who likes getting
13:40
Speaker 3: a needle. But the one great thing about a needle
13:43
Speaker 3: is it's just like a beasting. It lasts for a
13:46
Speaker 3: few seconds and then it's gone, and the sting will
13:49
Speaker 3: last there for a little bit, but it'll disappear over
13:52
Speaker 3: a very short period of time. So we just have
13:54
Speaker 3: to be brave for about one second, two seconds, three
13:58
Speaker 3: seconds and it's done. Yeah, And they responded so well
14:02
Speaker 3: to that. I was blown away. A few times we
14:04
Speaker 3: might have said.
14:05
Speaker 2: You can have a lollipop at the other end, were
14:06
Speaker 2: usually given a little bit of bribery as well, but
14:09
Speaker 2: they responded really well. Even I mean our seven year
14:11
Speaker 2: old last time she had a needle a short while ago.
14:13
Speaker 2: She was brilliant because we prepped her and we promised
14:17
Speaker 2: her a lollipop and done.
14:20
Speaker 3: What blew me away about that experience was she literally
14:22
Speaker 3: kind of looked at me after it was done, and
14:24
Speaker 3: she said, is that it?
14:26
Speaker 2: Yes, we need to get onto the science, but I've
14:29
Speaker 2: got to share this story. I still remember I reckon.
14:31
Speaker 2: I was probably about eight years old, nine years old.
14:33
Speaker 2: I don't know what needle it was back in the
14:35
Speaker 2: early nineteen eighties, but my mum got me in the car.
14:40
Speaker 2: We were going into town to do something. She stopped
14:42
Speaker 2: outside this place in the center of Gosford that I
14:47
Speaker 2: still remember. I had had a needle there once before,
14:50
Speaker 2: and we stopped there and I looked at mom, and
14:51
Speaker 2: I said, what are we doing here? And she looked
14:53
Speaker 2: at me and said, I lied to you before we're
14:55
Speaker 2: actually here so that you can get your needle. Mum
14:57
Speaker 2: and an employee from inside the literally were dragging it out.
15:01
Speaker 2: That there was about thirty stairs. They are about ten
15:03
Speaker 2: meters wide. There were really big wide stairs going up
15:06
Speaker 2: to this old building, and they were one on each arm,
15:09
Speaker 2: literally dragging me up the stairs.
15:11
Speaker 3: That's awful.
15:11
Speaker 2: I was terrified. Another time I hid under the doctor's
15:14
Speaker 2: desk in the surgery and I wouldn't come out like
15:17
Speaker 2: I had this incredible fear of needles, and a mum
15:20
Speaker 2: used to always try to trick me, and it's not
15:22
Speaker 2: the way to do it the way, you know.
15:23
Speaker 3: And I think that that's what I loved about the conversations.
15:26
Speaker 3: I was able to have it with the kids. At
15:27
Speaker 3: no point did I lie to them because I knew
15:29
Speaker 3: what was going to happen when we got in there
15:30
Speaker 3: if they weren't fully prepared, and each of them, I
15:33
Speaker 3: didn't book it until they said okay, I'm ready yep.
15:37
Speaker 2: So I was just not every child's going to be
15:39
Speaker 2: that compliant. But we've done it now with five of
15:42
Speaker 2: them in a row and they've all just kind of
15:43
Speaker 2: been lugging it. We don't like it, but we understand
15:45
Speaker 2: what's happening, and we know I'm going to get a
15:46
Speaker 2: treat at the end of it and it'll be okay.
15:49
Speaker 3: It did backfire a little bit last year, I don't
15:52
Speaker 3: remember well, our daughter in grade ten had to have.
15:55
Speaker 2: Oh her needle, Yeah, okay, she's worse than me, and
16:01
Speaker 2: the school actually had to ring me because they couldn't
16:04
Speaker 2: get her into the room.
16:07
Speaker 3: And at some point I believe.
16:08
Speaker 4: That I literally physically falter through and then had to
16:14
Speaker 4: hold her like you would toddler with my palm over
16:18
Speaker 4: her forehead and you sat on her or something didn't
16:22
Speaker 4: It was very hard.
16:23
Speaker 2: Anyway, let's go to the research really quickly. So basically,
16:25
Speaker 2: this is some research that came out of York University
16:29
Speaker 2: in the UK. So this research of the looks at
16:31
Speaker 2: what you say in the first minute after a vaccination
16:34
Speaker 2: and how key that is in reducing a child's address.
16:37
Speaker 2: You can literally in the first minute change the trajector
16:41
Speaker 2: change change the trajectory. You can change the trajectory within
16:46
Speaker 2: the first minute if you get your wording right now.
16:47
Speaker 2: This is important because seventy five percent of children will downregulate.
16:52
Speaker 2: That is, they will be a little bit distressed, but
16:55
Speaker 2: they'll bring that down. Seventy five percent of them will.
16:58
Speaker 2: But twenty five percent don't. They stay distressed, they get
17:01
Speaker 2: really hyped up. They actually end up worse, not better
17:04
Speaker 2: after one to two minutes. So these researchers looked at
17:06
Speaker 2: what parents were doing and saying in the first minute
17:08
Speaker 2: and then in the second minute, and how that affected
17:11
Speaker 2: the outcomes.
17:12
Speaker 3: Well, I think the most important thing we need to
17:13
Speaker 3: remember is that heightened emotion before had an impact, Yes,
17:16
Speaker 3: before we even got to this. So having those conversations
17:20
Speaker 3: with our children and empowering them before we walk in
17:22
Speaker 3: the door, not lying to them, not surprising them, yeah,
17:26
Speaker 3: or tricking them to think that they're going to get
17:28
Speaker 3: a nice cream, thanks mum, and then showing up at
17:31
Speaker 3: the doctors like your mum did. Yeah. But the most
17:34
Speaker 3: important thing we can do in that first minute is
17:37
Speaker 3: to offer encouragement. They're so brave to be able to
17:40
Speaker 3: sit there and literally watch somebody jab them with a needle.
17:43
Speaker 2: Okay, let me read this to you. Results indicated that
17:45
Speaker 2: higher child baseline distress was predictive of whether the kids
17:49
Speaker 2: would downregulate or stay distressed. So we want them to
17:52
Speaker 2: be calm going in there, or at least not to
17:54
Speaker 2: be too heightened, because of course they're going to be
17:57
Speaker 2: a little bit anxious. But here's what else led to
17:59
Speaker 2: negative outcome in that first minute following the needle more
18:04
Speaker 2: parent what they call coping promoting verbalizations. So a coping
18:09
Speaker 2: promoting verbalization is something like it'll be all right, it'll
18:15
Speaker 2: be over soon. In other words, in the first minute
18:18
Speaker 2: right after that sting, hearing that does not make you
18:21
Speaker 2: feel better. It makes you feel worse because it's not
18:24
Speaker 2: feeling like it's going to be all right. It's really
18:25
Speaker 2: stinging right now. And of course, as you highlighted it,
18:29
Speaker 2: within a few seconds it actually goes away. But that
18:31
Speaker 2: first minute seems to be really crucial. So what we
18:33
Speaker 2: don't want to say is you'll be right, You'll be fine.
18:36
Speaker 2: See that didn't hurt that much, because that's not consistent
18:40
Speaker 2: with their truth.
18:41
Speaker 3: In that Lina hurt, it really hurt, And.
18:44
Speaker 2: You might say that really hurt, didn't that needles can
18:47
Speaker 2: be painful, but I'm here for you. That's what they
18:50
Speaker 2: need to hear. They need to hear that that gentle
18:52
Speaker 2: coaching through it. Not a promise that you'll be right
18:54
Speaker 2: or here comes the lollipop, but rather they do sting
18:58
Speaker 2: a bit, don't they. You just lean into me and
19:00
Speaker 2: me a big cuddle. What they also found though, is
19:03
Speaker 2: that once you get to the second minute, you can
19:05
Speaker 2: kind of relax a little bit and say, oh, it's
19:08
Speaker 2: not hurting so much now, is it. You're feeling better now.
19:10
Speaker 2: And so I know it's a little bit complicated, a
19:12
Speaker 2: little bit complex, but we really want to minimize try
19:17
Speaker 2: to help them to cope and just let them know
19:18
Speaker 2: that we're there. I think that's really the take home message.
19:21
Speaker 3: When you got those little kids, Usually the doctors are
19:23
Speaker 3: going to ask you to actually, you know, have them
19:25
Speaker 3: sit on your knees so that you can hold them
19:26
Speaker 3: and keep them still. And I'm guessing that most doctor
19:30
Speaker 3: surgeries are on board with this now, and when there's
19:32
Speaker 3: two needles involved, they actually have two people do it
19:35
Speaker 3: so that the needles happen at the same time.
19:37
Speaker 2: I hate that one.
19:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bad, and it's not so bad because knowing
19:41
Speaker 3: what it feels like the first time and then having
19:43
Speaker 3: to anticipate having it happen the second time is so
19:45
Speaker 3: much more traumatizing than just having it all happen at once.
19:50
Speaker 3: But I think you know, that closeness, having cuddle time
19:53
Speaker 3: and just appreciating that they're hurting right now and that's okay,
19:57
Speaker 3: is so important.
19:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. It really, we're just about out of time. We've
20:02
Speaker 2: got to talk about this last In fact, we're over time.
20:04
Speaker 2: But let's just talk about this last study really quickly.
20:06
Speaker 2: This comes from the University of Reading. It's about teenagers
20:09
Speaker 2: who how to get them to open up to us basically,
20:12
Speaker 2: And this is by a researcher that I've followed for
20:14
Speaker 2: the last twenty years or so. I think she's brilliant.
20:15
Speaker 2: Her name is Nedda Weinstein or nedder Weinstein, I don't know.
20:18
Speaker 2: Maybe it's Weinstein or Winstein. I don't know. Neda Winstein
20:23
Speaker 2: is what I'm going to say. And she got one
20:26
Speaker 2: thousand and one thirteen to sixteen year olds together.
20:29
Speaker 3: That's a hefty number.
20:30
Speaker 2: That's a good number. Got them to watch this staged
20:32
Speaker 2: conversation between parent and teenager about something difficult going on
20:36
Speaker 2: in that teenager's life, and the parents in these stage
20:39
Speaker 2: situations basically took different postures, different body language, different listening behavior.
20:44
Speaker 2: It will come as no surprise that when parents are
20:48
Speaker 2: more attentive to their teenagers, the teenagers feel like they've
20:51
Speaker 2: been heard. I know it's kind of like from the
20:53
Speaker 2: University of DU, but here's the context. Basically, the first
20:56
Speaker 2: video conversation scenario portrays a teenage boy admitting to mum
21:01
Speaker 2: that he'd tried vaping and that he felt ashamed. In
21:05
Speaker 2: the second video, he tells mum that he was rejected
21:09
Speaker 2: by his peers because he refused to vape, and then
21:12
Speaker 2: he felt hurt. So there's these two scenarios, and basically
21:16
Speaker 2: the parent either listens attentively or they're distracted, or they
21:20
Speaker 2: use more eye contact or they use less eye contact.
21:23
Speaker 2: And essentially, when you listen attentively and you look at
21:25
Speaker 2: your kids when they're talking to you, it leads to
21:28
Speaker 2: better well being and more disclosure. It's good for the relationship.
21:33
Speaker 3: It really does interest me that we need data on this.
21:38
Speaker 2: I get that, and yet it's so really a nice
21:40
Speaker 2: little reminder that sometimes our kids just need us to
21:43
Speaker 2: be present, pay attention and really listen.
21:45
Speaker 3: It really surprises me that they have to do research
21:47
Speaker 3: on this. I know you've said it's from the University
21:49
Speaker 3: of dere a little bit, and that's how I feel
21:50
Speaker 3: like a lot of the research is because it's just
21:52
Speaker 3: it's such common sense.
21:53
Speaker 2: What's interesting, though, is a lot of common sense gets
21:55
Speaker 2: disproven by research. Sometimes we think stuff's common sense and
21:58
Speaker 2: it doesn't work as well. So it's nice to get
22:01
Speaker 2: some confirmatory research on something that we kind of already believed.
22:04
Speaker 2: We really hope that you've enjoyed this podcast episode. It's
22:06
Speaker 2: gone a bit longer because we kind of get excited
22:08
Speaker 2: about the science, and let's you get excited. Okay, you
22:11
Speaker 2: get excited about the conversations we get to have because
22:13
Speaker 2: of the science, Like vaccinations. We could have done a
22:15
Speaker 2: whole episode on that. If you would like more information
22:18
Speaker 2: about those studies, we will link to all of them
22:20
Speaker 2: in the show notes, at least the abstracts in the
22:22
Speaker 2: scientific journals. If you do a bit of a google around,
22:24
Speaker 2: I'm sure we can find more and fo about each
22:26
Speaker 2: of them and ge was. We just really hope that
22:28
Speaker 2: you enjoyed the podcast and what we offer. If you do,
22:30
Speaker 2: please leave ratings and reviews at Apple Podcasts so that
22:33
Speaker 2: other people can find out about the podcast. As always,
22:36
Speaker 2: we appreciate justin Rulan from Bridge Media. He's our producer
22:39
Speaker 2: and he makes the podcast actually work and sound good.
22:42
Speaker 2: And Craig Bruce, he's the ideas guy. He's the one
22:44
Speaker 2: who helps us to figure out how to make a
22:46
Speaker 2: podcast that you will want to listen to. So we
22:48
Speaker 2: appreciate our executive producer, Craig Bruce. If you'd like more
22:51
Speaker 2: information about making your family happier, please visit us on
22:55
Speaker 2: our Facebook page, Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families, or at
22:58
Speaker 2: happy families dot com. Did I