Latest / Credlin / Credlin | 14 September

Transcript

Credlin | 14 September · Credlin

0:01
Speaker 1: Peter Credlin, live from News 24.
0:07
Speaker 2: Good evening. Welcome to the program.
0:09
Speaker 3: Here's what's coming up tonight on Credlin. Another sitting week
0:12
Speaker 3: in Canberra. One Nation straight out of the blocks today.
0:15
Speaker 3: A migration policy that set the cat amongst the pigeons.
0:19
Speaker 3: Proactive policy too that's leaving Labor and the Coalition in
0:22
Speaker 3: the dust. But that's just the start of a day's
0:25
Speaker 3: headlines involving One Nation and leader Pauline Hanson. More on
0:29
Speaker 3: a big day of politics coming up. Serious questions too
0:33
Speaker 3: for the Albanese government today and a $ 75 million program
0:37
Speaker 3: to de-radicalise young people.
0:39
Speaker 2: It's facing real scrutiny.
0:41
Speaker 3: Figures today saying very limited outcomes and some people who
0:45
Speaker 3: go into these programs actually end up more dangerous than
0:50
Speaker 3: when the program started. superhuman systems that can hack anything.
0:55
Speaker 2: That's the stark warning.
0:56
Speaker 3: Over the rise of artificial intelligence, that could be straight
1:00
Speaker 3: out of a movie script. We'll talk to an expert
1:02
Speaker 3: tonight about how real the threat is and whether Australia
1:06
Speaker 3: is doing enough to reap the rewards while limiting the
1:09
Speaker 3: risks of AI. And up to 600 jobs on the
1:13
Speaker 3: chopping block in Wyalla as the steelworks prepare to shut
1:16
Speaker 3: down the blast furnace, despite more than a billion dollars
1:20
Speaker 3: from taxpayers to stop this happening. The South Australian Premier, though,
1:24
Speaker 3: conceding the writing's been on the wall for a long time.
1:30
Speaker 4: For all intents and purposes, this thing should not be operating, right?
1:34
Speaker 5: And it's only been able to survive because there are
1:36
Speaker 5: so many dedicated men and women who have kept it alive.
1:42
Speaker 3: Well, I remember the warnings a long time ago about
1:44
Speaker 3: mucking around with Australia's energy on Wayala.
1:47
Speaker 2: We'll get to that in a moment.
1:49
Speaker 3: But first, the Prime Minister today faced more questions, as
1:52
Speaker 3: he should, regarding his longstanding connection to the Marrickville Golf Club. Now,
1:57
Speaker 3: it's a connection that he's never disclosed at any time
2:00
Speaker 3: on his Register of Parliamentary Interests, something he's denied in
2:03
Speaker 3: the Parliament last week, yet was caught out in footage
2:07
Speaker 3: from the 2019 election campaign.
2:11
Speaker 2: Now, first... Here's the denials.
2:14
Speaker 6: In 2012, I've been advised that I got honorary membership.
2:20
Speaker 6: Someone made a decision. I don't have a card. I
2:24
Speaker 6: don't go to the club.
2:25
Speaker 2: 14 years ago.
2:28
Speaker 7: But I make this point.
2:30
Speaker 2: Mr Speaker.
2:32
Speaker 6: If anyone wants to join what is affectionately known as
2:35
Speaker 6: Royal Marigold, what they need for two years' membership is $ 5.
2:41
Speaker 8: We'll get them two years' membership.
2:43
Speaker 9: For two years!
2:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, there he is, all the bluster.
2:49
Speaker 3: But then along came the inconvenient truth with Albanese caught
2:53
Speaker 3: on camera at the club.
2:57
Speaker 10: And today I want to announce... that a federal Labor
3:00
Speaker 10: government is committing $ 350, 000 to make sure that this club
3:07
Speaker 10: can host more events, support more volunteer organisations, support more
3:12
Speaker 10: charities and be even better than it is today.
3:19
Speaker 2: I come here all the time, he said.
3:21
Speaker 3: Well, as I revealed in the program last week, Whether
3:25
Speaker 3: or not the Prime Minister has or had an honorary
3:28
Speaker 3: membership of the Marrickville Golf Club or that small beer, yes,
3:33
Speaker 3: it should have been disclosed, as every interest should, and
3:37
Speaker 3: clearly it was not.
3:39
Speaker 2: But I'm far more concerned.
3:41
Speaker 3: about whether the Prime Minister's decision to hand this club
3:44
Speaker 3: $ 6 million from taxpayers has given Anthony Albanese a financial benefit.
3:51
Speaker 3: You see, what I was able to show last week
3:54
Speaker 3: is that the Prime Minister owns property right next to
3:57
Speaker 3: the Marrickville Golf Course. At one stage, it was two
4:01
Speaker 3: freestanding homes.
4:02
Speaker 2: Now it's just one.
4:04
Speaker 3: But given how hard Albanese fought to save the golf
4:07
Speaker 3: club in the past, to keep the rare green space
4:10
Speaker 3: as parkland in inner city Sydney, how much of what
4:14
Speaker 3: he was doing was doing the right thing by locals
4:18
Speaker 3: and how much of it was about increasing the value
4:20
Speaker 3: of the homes he owns that are a stone's throw
4:24
Speaker 3: from the course. Let's not forget that access to this
4:28
Speaker 3: grants funding was by invitation only. Clubs and community groups
4:33
Speaker 3: couldn't just make a case for funding and apply. They
4:37
Speaker 3: had to be tapped on the shoulder. So just who
4:41
Speaker 3: was it that tapped Marrickville Golf Club on the shoulder?
4:45
Speaker 3: Was it the club's, quote, most famous patron, the Prime Minister?
4:49
Speaker 3: After all, that's how the local council mayor, factional ally
4:53
Speaker 3: of the PM, Darcy Byrne, described Albanese in a Facebook
4:58
Speaker 3: post last month. The Centre for Public Integrity has looked
5:02
Speaker 3: into Labor's $ 560 million scheme, the scheme that funded this
5:07
Speaker 3: Marrickville Golf Club project, and found that some 73% of
5:12
Speaker 3: all funds were directed into safe Labor seats and marginal
5:16
Speaker 3: seats that Labor hoped to win at the last election.
5:20
Speaker 3: Meaning the accusation that this was little more than a
5:23
Speaker 3: half a billion dollar.
5:24
Speaker 2: Pork barrel, well, that deserves proper scrutiny.
5:28
Speaker 3: So too does the Prime Minister's stonewalling of reasonable questions
5:32
Speaker 3: from the opposition, given we now know he owned two
5:36
Speaker 3: homes right across from the golf course. One he sold
5:41
Speaker 3: in 2021 for $ 2. 35 million, but another one that Albanese
5:47
Speaker 3: still owns, worth to close $ 3 million now, that's currently
5:51
Speaker 3: rented out to tenants. Now, we know the address here
5:54
Speaker 3: on News 24, but in the interest of security, We
5:57
Speaker 3: won't reveal it on air, but I can tell you it's.
6:00
Speaker 2: About 400 metres from the golf course itself.
6:04
Speaker 3: And today he was asked to tell the Parliament just
6:07
Speaker 3: how transparently he handled.
6:09
Speaker 2: This $ 6.
6:10
Speaker 3: Million grant to a golf club, quite literally, in his backyard.
6:16
Speaker 3: Here is the question from Nationals MP Alison Penfold.
6:21
Speaker 7: The Prime Minister sits in the Expenditure Review Committee of Cabinet,
6:24
Speaker 7: that's the Budget Committee, and he chairs Cabinet. When this
6:28
Speaker 7: funding allocation for the Marrickville golf course came into either
6:32
Speaker 7: meeting for sign-off, did the Prime Minister declare he was,
6:35
Speaker 7: in the words of the local mayor, the golf club's
6:38
Speaker 7: most famous patron and neighbour? Did the Prime Minister declare
6:43
Speaker 7: a conflict of interest and recuse himself from the funding decision?
6:47
Speaker 3: All right, fair, legitimate, transparent questions.
6:53
Speaker 2: Here's the Prime Minister's answer.
6:55
Speaker 6: The question goes to... cabinet processes. The decision maker is
7:00
Speaker 6: the Minister for Infrastructure. I'm not even the decision maker.
7:05
Speaker 3: Well, that's not the question. It wasn't whether you're the
7:07
Speaker 3: decision maker or not. But did you have any role
7:11
Speaker 3: in the verification of that funding allocation? Were you in
7:15
Speaker 3: the room when it was ratified? So that wasn't an
7:18
Speaker 3: answer to the question, Prime Minister. That was deflection.
7:21
Speaker 2: Deny, deflect, a lie. That's the Albanese way.
7:31
Speaker 3: And look, just staying with the Prime Minister, I want
7:33
Speaker 3: to pick up on the furor that's occurred off the
7:35
Speaker 3: back of these old comments from Pauline Hanson that resurfaced
7:40
Speaker 3: over the weekend.
7:41
Speaker 11: House Commission houses should not be there for people to
7:43
Speaker 11: live in them for 30, 40. And he said his
7:45
Speaker 11: mother lived in the same one. She was born in
7:48
Speaker 11: for 65 years. Sorry, that's not on to me. It
7:51
Speaker 11: should be limited time. You've been given a hand up.
7:54
Speaker 11: Moving on to the next one's coming through.
7:57
Speaker 3: Well, as soon as those comments resurfaced, The Prime Minister
8:01
Speaker 3: was out of the blocks on Sunday with this somewhat
8:04
Speaker 3: emotional response.
8:06
Speaker 12: I am stunned at these comments, but I'll make this point.
8:12
Speaker 12: If Pauline Hanson wants to criticise me, then that's fine.
8:17
Speaker 12: But my mother was way out of Pauline Hanson's league.
8:20
Speaker 13: Way out of it.
8:23
Speaker 3: Now, I will agree with the Prime Minister that ordinarily
8:26
Speaker 3: the families of politicians are off limits. Not that Labor
8:30
Speaker 3: observes that rule when it comes to their opponents. The
8:33
Speaker 3: families of both Tony Abbott and Barnaby Joyce routinely treated
8:37
Speaker 3: by Labor and the media as fair game.
8:40
Speaker 2: But that's the left, isn't it?
8:42
Speaker 3: One rule for them, one rule for everyone else. Do
8:46
Speaker 3: I think that Pauline Hanson should have named the Prime
8:48
Speaker 3: Minister's mum in that podcast?
8:50
Speaker 2: No, I don't.
8:51
Speaker 3: But do I think that The fact the Prime Minister
8:56
Speaker 3: himself has used her as a prop, talking about her
9:01
Speaker 3: whole life story as part of his Housing Commission upbringing,
9:07
Speaker 3: do I think that's relevant?
9:08
Speaker 2: Well, it is.
9:11
Speaker 6: The son of a single mum who was a disability
9:14
Speaker 6: pensioner who grew up in public housing down the road
9:17
Speaker 6: in Camperdown.
9:19
Speaker 12: I had the security because it was public housing of
9:22
Speaker 12: a roof over my head.
9:23
Speaker 6: A single mum.
9:24
Speaker 12: Who raised me in public housing and relied on what
9:28
Speaker 12: was then called the invalid pension, now known as the
9:30
Speaker 12: disability pension.
9:32
Speaker 6: I didn't grow up with a sense of destiny. I
9:36
Speaker 6: was raised in a council house not far from here.
9:41
Speaker 3: The PM's put his mum on the table. Now, as
9:44
Speaker 3: I said, if I was Pauline Hanson, I would not
9:47
Speaker 3: have named his mother. But do I think her questioning...
9:52
Speaker 3: about who accesses public housing and for how long is legitimate,
9:56
Speaker 3: I absolutely do. The access rules around tax funded housing
10:01
Speaker 3: at a time when so many Australians can't get a
10:03
Speaker 3: foot in the door, well that is.
10:04
Speaker 2: Fair and it's reasonable. Using the PM's mark? No, that's
10:09
Speaker 2: a bridge too far.
10:11
Speaker 3: But given he's reacted as he has over the weekend, Well,
10:15
Speaker 3: I think we can now all expect that the Prime Minister,
10:18
Speaker 3: that Anthony Albanese, will not drag her into the debate
10:23
Speaker 3: himself in the future. Parliament back for the second of
10:31
Speaker 3: the two sitting weeks. We'll go there now for the
10:33
Speaker 3: headlines with Trini McIntosh.
10:36
Speaker 8: Australia wants to see global AI safety measures amid warnings
10:40
Speaker 8: the technology could kill humans by the end of the decade.
10:43
Speaker 5: Clearly we need not just Australian regulation, but also global
10:48
Speaker 5: efforts on safety.
10:49
Speaker 8: Rival AI bosses are calling for a slowdown in the
10:52
Speaker 8: race to develop the frontier technology.
10:54
Speaker 14: I think it is unacceptable to be taking like a 10%
10:57
Speaker 14: chance of killing everybody by the end of the decade.
10:59
Speaker 8: US President Donald Trump doesn't seem to share that concern.
11:03
Speaker 1: And they're bringing up things that won't happen.
11:05
Speaker 8: Confident the US will beat China in what's shaping up
11:08
Speaker 8: as a new arms race.
11:09
Speaker 1: Whoever wins, AI wins.
11:11
Speaker 8: The East v West Coast GST brawl is heating up
11:14
Speaker 8: this week. New South Wales the first to give evidence
11:17
Speaker 8: at the Productivity Commission hearings. Its initial report found the
11:20
Speaker 8: GST Forever deal for WA is a costly mistake. But
11:24
Speaker 8: the national rules cannot simply be the prize awarded to
11:27
Speaker 8: whichever state extracts the greatest political advantage at a particular moment.
11:32
Speaker 8: WA will get its right of reply later this week.
11:35
Speaker 8: And pensioners will be hit hard by Labor's proposed changes
11:38
Speaker 8: to the private health insurance rebate. New analysis found around
11:41
Speaker 8: half of the $ 3 billion in savings from the over-65s
11:44
Speaker 8: changes will be clawed back from Aussies on the pension.
11:48
Speaker 2: All pensioners should be carved out from this legislation.
11:51
Speaker 3: This is lazy policy, this is a lazy bill.
11:53
Speaker 2: Enough is enough.
11:54
Speaker 7: Go find your savings elsewhere.
11:56
Speaker 8: And in the House, things get heated over Labor's proposed veterans'
11:59
Speaker 8: health cap.
12:04
Speaker 6: You can cut pointing your finger at me because there
12:07
Speaker 6: are veterans out there who are absolutely hurting.
12:10
Speaker 1: I tell you who is leaving veterans behind, it's this minister.
12:14
Speaker 8: Trudy McIntosh, News 24, Canberra.
12:18
Speaker 2: Well, spring sprung in Canberra, hasn't it? Look at that beautiful.
12:20
Speaker 3: Cherry blossom tree that Trudy was there in front of
12:24
Speaker 3: for that cross. Let's bring in Chris Ullman now, News24
12:27
Speaker 3: political contributor, for the latest on what's been a pretty
12:30
Speaker 3: tumultuous weekend of personal politics. Chris, we'll get to that
12:34
Speaker 3: in a moment, but I really want to touch on
12:37
Speaker 3: your interest area and my interest.
12:39
Speaker 2: Area, obviously energy and industry.
12:41
Speaker 3: This big news today that Wyala is bracing for the
12:44
Speaker 3: loss of as many as 600 jobs. Administrators are preparing
12:49
Speaker 3: to shut down the blast furnace at the steelworks. More
12:53
Speaker 3: than a billion dollars has been pumped into Wyala to
12:55
Speaker 3: try and keep it going. Now we know it's being
12:58
Speaker 3: permanently shut down. I'm reminded of those comments from Tony
13:02
Speaker 3: Abbott about a decade ago and said, if we don't
13:04
Speaker 3: fix Australia's baseload energy mix, he said. Wyala would be
13:08
Speaker 3: wiped out, it would be wiped off the map. He
13:11
Speaker 3: was rubbished for those comments at the time. We got
13:13
Speaker 3: some ridiculous stuff from the then Minister Craig Emerson.
13:17
Speaker 2: Have a look. I'm sorry for that, my viewers.
13:21
Speaker 15: But I tell you what, Chris, no one actually wants
13:24
Speaker 15: to prove it right here.
13:25
Speaker 13: But the coalition warned about this and it's happened.
13:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Mark Simcombe was a reporter, as I recall,
13:48
Speaker 5: when the minister did that, brought along his own music
13:51
Speaker 5: and he was shocked right out of his brain that
13:53
Speaker 5: the minister would do that. And it turns out that
13:55
Speaker 5: a decade down the track, that's precisely what we've gotten.
13:59
Speaker 5: Look at what's happened in that decade, Peter. We've seen
14:02
Speaker 5: so many different rescue packages from so many different governments.
14:06
Speaker 5: And in the end, what have we got? A steelworks
14:08
Speaker 5: that has shut down. and has basically died of age
14:12
Speaker 5: and neglect and plenty of time in between to try
14:15
Speaker 5: and do something about it. Now, of course, the promises
14:17
Speaker 5: are there that something will be done in the future,
14:20
Speaker 5: but who could possibly say? And in the end, if
14:22
Speaker 5: we have really high energy prices, it's almost impossible for
14:25
Speaker 5: Australian industry to compete. So that's one of many things
14:28
Speaker 5: that's helped kill off Wyala. But in the end, it
14:31
Speaker 5: turns out that Craig Emerson was right. It is shocking
14:34
Speaker 5: us all right out of our brain, the fact that
14:36
Speaker 5: this has taken so much time and so much money
14:38
Speaker 5: and we ended up in precisely... the spot that he ridiculed.
14:43
Speaker 2: Well, because we haven't fixed the problems.
14:44
Speaker 3: I mean, you wrote a great piece on the weekend
14:46
Speaker 3: saying that our economic decline is absolutely entirely our own fault.
14:52
Speaker 3: And you looked at how resource rich we are as
14:55
Speaker 3: a country and the fact that we're drowning in resources.
14:58
Speaker 3: We won't use them here. We ship them overseas. No
15:01
Speaker 3: wonder we're a laughingstock.
15:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, Peter, and the thing I hear around the country,
15:07
Speaker 5: and I've been doing a lot of travel recently, and
15:09
Speaker 5: that is from our investors, overseas investors in Australia who
15:13
Speaker 5: talk about the way that we've changed the rules on coal,
15:15
Speaker 5: in particular in places like Queensland, that we're talking about
15:18
Speaker 5: changing rules on gas. So after the effect, after they've
15:21
Speaker 5: made the investment, sovereign risk becomes a problem and sovereign
15:24
Speaker 5: risk emerges everywhere. And it's not just in big businesses everywhere.
15:28
Speaker 5: And it's not just in industry, it's also in farming
15:30
Speaker 5: and it's in small businesses that these constant changing of
15:33
Speaker 5: rules and the latest one, of course, that we saw
15:35
Speaker 5: was on negative gearing and capital gains makes it impossible
15:38
Speaker 5: for people to make investment decisions at the big level
15:41
Speaker 5: and at small. And then we go about attacking our
15:44
Speaker 5: competitive advantage. If your advantage is in agriculture and if
15:47
Speaker 5: it's in mining, then you would think that you do
15:49
Speaker 5: everything in your power to help those industries. we seem
15:52
Speaker 5: to be going out of our way to do everything
15:54
Speaker 5: that we can to hinder them. And it doesn't have
15:56
Speaker 5: to be one thing, but over a long period of time,
15:58
Speaker 5: all of these things add up to burden on businesses
16:01
Speaker 5: that are impossible to bear. And at the same time,
16:03
Speaker 5: we constantly increase the size of government. So it's in
16:06
Speaker 5: competition for labour and capital in Australia and the debt
16:10
Speaker 5: burden continues to grow. So all of those things together
16:14
Speaker 5: are adding up to an economy that's becoming increasingly uncompetitive.
16:20
Speaker 3: Let's go to those comments from Labor Luminary Bill Kelty
16:24
Speaker 3: saying that Anthony Albanese and Jim Chalmers are fuelling One
16:27
Speaker 3: Nation but they are, quote, insulting voters by welcoming lower
16:31
Speaker 3: house prices while presiding over a fall in real wages.
16:34
Speaker 3: He said that this country's got real problems. Very similar
16:39
Speaker 3: to comments made by Kevin Rudd at that National Press
16:42
Speaker 3: Club address last week, where he said Australia's in danger
16:45
Speaker 3: of becoming a second-rate country. What do you make of this?
16:50
Speaker 3: Because this doesn't happen a lot, not from someone like Kelty.
16:54
Speaker 5: No, and the thing is that the government can easily
16:56
Speaker 5: dismiss people like you and dismiss people like me and
17:00
Speaker 5: say that, of course, we've got an axe to grind
17:01
Speaker 5: and an agenda, but they can't dismiss someone like Bill Kelty.
17:04
Speaker 5: And Kevin Rudd and Bill Kelty's right. This nation does
17:08
Speaker 5: have real problems. And he pointed out the fact that
17:10
Speaker 5: people find it insulting when the Treasurer goes to some
17:13
Speaker 5: baroque figure on GDP and says that workers are getting
17:16
Speaker 5: a greater share of it when they actually feel like
17:18
Speaker 5: their real wages are falling. And why do they feel
17:20
Speaker 5: that way? Because they are. And if interest rates go
17:23
Speaker 5: up again, they'll feel poorer again. And eventually we're going
17:26
Speaker 5: to get a consumption strike by consumers. As they feel
17:30
Speaker 5: less and less poor, they're going to spend less and less,
17:33
Speaker 5: and then that will affect the entire economy. I think
17:35
Speaker 5: we are heading towards a really significant cliff in the
17:38
Speaker 5: next 18 months. The government has to be very careful.
17:41
Speaker 5: It feels bulletproof at the moment because of the division
17:43
Speaker 5: on the right, but if things continue to track this
17:46
Speaker 5: way for individuals feeling poorer, then anything.
17:49
Speaker 4: Could happen at the next election.
17:52
Speaker 3: An announcement by One Nation today, quite a significant body
17:57
Speaker 3: of work on a migration policy. A lot in there
18:00
Speaker 3: I have to agree with, you know, a crackdown on
18:02
Speaker 3: temporary visas, stopping people migrating, visa types onshore. quite a
18:08
Speaker 3: bit there about student visas, pulling back on the ability
18:11
Speaker 3: of people who come here as, say, a student or
18:13
Speaker 3: a graduate from bringing in the family, you know, triggering
18:17
Speaker 3: that broader extended family coming at the same time. I
18:21
Speaker 3: listened to comments from Mike Pazulu, of course, former Secretary
18:23
Speaker 3: of the Home Affairs Committee, department, someone.
18:26
Speaker 2: Who has worked for the Labor Party.
18:29
Speaker 3: He said, like I did, you know, that there's a
18:31
Speaker 3: lot in there, particularly in that return to the old
18:34
Speaker 3: Howard era of visa rules once you.
18:38
Speaker 2: Are on shore.
18:38
Speaker 3: He said there's a lot there that can be recommended
18:41
Speaker 3: in this policy. I'll get your comment on that. But
18:44
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, the events of the weekend, these
18:47
Speaker 3: podcasts turning up, inflammatory comments from Pauline Hanson, they're distracting
18:54
Speaker 3: from what I think has been some good work in
18:56
Speaker 3: her document today.
18:57
Speaker 5: I think so too. And particularly on immigration, this is
19:02
Speaker 5: where you get the head nod from everybody because people
19:04
Speaker 5: recognise that there is something wrong with the system and
19:07
Speaker 5: it needs fixing. And that's not a racist thing. That
19:09
Speaker 5: is simply about the numbers and the provisions that are
19:13
Speaker 5: available to people. So if you are someone who comes
19:15
Speaker 5: here as a student, should you really be able to
19:17
Speaker 5: bring your extended family and then go on to another
19:20
Speaker 5: student visa and then eventually claim asylum and string the
19:23
Speaker 5: system out for 10 years and in that time bring
19:25
Speaker 5: family members out? I don't think that people would think
19:27
Speaker 5: that that would be fair at all. And if you're
19:29
Speaker 5: on a temporary visa, can you claim protection and bridging visas?
19:32
Speaker 5: And again, string out your stay here to now that
19:35
Speaker 5: there's something like 400,000 people in the country who are
19:38
Speaker 5: in that position. No, we should have a set of
19:41
Speaker 5: rules which are clear to people, which set certain limits
19:43
Speaker 5: on the kinds of visa that you have and the
19:45
Speaker 5: protections that are available to you. And I think that
19:48
Speaker 5: One Nation is doing good work here. It's the kind
19:50
Speaker 5: of work the Coalition should be doing, but seems incapable
19:53
Speaker 5: of doing so.
19:56
Speaker 3: Okay, well, comments please, if you can, on the podcast,
19:59
Speaker 3: Returning to the Fore, because I mentioned this at the
20:02
Speaker 3: top of the show, the Prime Minister is the one
20:04
Speaker 3: who introduced his mother as a political weapon to sort
20:09
Speaker 3: of burnish his credentials as coming from the wrong side
20:11
Speaker 3: of the tracks.
20:12
Speaker 2: He's done that. He's succeeded in life. He owns many.
20:16
Speaker 3: More houses than a lot of people from his origins.
20:20
Speaker 2: That's to be congratulated.
20:21
Speaker 3: My side of politics congratulates that sort of, aspiration.
20:25
Speaker 2: So he puts his.
20:26
Speaker 3: Mum in the frame and he's now highly critical that
20:30
Speaker 3: she's turned up and been used by his opponents. As
20:33
Speaker 3: I said, I wouldn't have done it. But I do
20:35
Speaker 3: think the debate about how long people are in public
20:38
Speaker 3: housing and what are the rules for access, I think
20:42
Speaker 3: that's absolutely legitimate. I mean, did Hanson go too far here?
20:49
Speaker 5: Look, she should be aware of the fact that now
20:51
Speaker 5: what people are doing is trawling back through absolutely everything
20:54
Speaker 5: that she has said, not just in the last couple
20:57
Speaker 5: of months, but in the last few years to try
20:59
Speaker 5: and get something on her. And this is an emotional
21:02
Speaker 5: argument that's being made against her by something which was
21:05
Speaker 5: a little bit careless. Like she did not have to
21:07
Speaker 5: bring in Anthony Albanese's mother in order to make the
21:09
Speaker 5: point that she wanted to make. So as a general rule,
21:13
Speaker 5: I agree with you, families should be you know, out
21:16
Speaker 5: of reach, but we know that those rules have not
21:20
Speaker 5: been honoured in the past by both sides of politics. So,
21:23
Speaker 5: you know, that is... But Pauline Hanson has really got
21:25
Speaker 5: to work out what is the main game for her
21:27
Speaker 5: and try and stick to her knitting. She can really
21:29
Speaker 5: go in hard on immigration. without saying, for example, you know,
21:35
Speaker 5: bringing individuals into this sort of thing or going hard
21:38
Speaker 5: on housing without bringing individuals into it or their families.
21:41
Speaker 5: So I think that if she sticks to the main game,
21:43
Speaker 5: she's got plenty of arguments to make and this stuff
21:46
Speaker 5: is just a distraction. But she should be well aware
21:49
Speaker 5: by now of the fact that anything that she's said
21:50
Speaker 5: in the past is now fair game and people will
21:52
Speaker 5: try and beat it up.
21:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll see what else comes out. Thank you very much.
21:57
Speaker 2: Grace Yeoman.
21:58
Speaker 3: I want to go to a big story that's developed
22:00
Speaker 3: in recent days. This is something, you know, I have
22:03
Speaker 3: watched closely here on Credlin, and that's growing concerns over
22:07
Speaker 3: whether Labor's de-radicalisation programs actually work. Now, we spend as
22:13
Speaker 3: taxpayers some $ 75 million on these programs that do many things,
22:19
Speaker 3: but mainly they are an attempt to stop kids and
22:23
Speaker 3: adults who have been identified at risk of extremism, mainly
22:29
Speaker 3: radical Islamic extremism, to pull them back from the brink.
22:33
Speaker 3: And there's reports in the papers over the weekend that
22:37
Speaker 3: the vast majority of almost 300 participants assessed in these
22:41
Speaker 3: programs are Well, some have ended up more dangerous, 24%,
22:45
Speaker 3: and only 23, 23 out of 300, have shown some
22:49
Speaker 3: sort of positive behavioural change. Says the reports, some 227,
22:55
Speaker 3: that's the vast majority, 300, well, they are reported to
22:59
Speaker 3: have had no change when it came to concern levels
23:04
Speaker 3: about their extremism. Here to discuss this and more, former
23:07
Speaker 3: AFP Detective Superintendent David Craig says, Well, David, as I
23:11
Speaker 3: said at the outset, you and I have long talked
23:13
Speaker 3: about these issues.
23:15
Speaker 2: An expert in this.
23:17
Speaker 3: Area, terrorism insurgency expert Clive Williams, said in the piece
23:20
Speaker 3: on the weekend, these numbers do not meet the bar.
23:23
Speaker 3: They are consistent with the mixed, limited evidence base for
23:27
Speaker 3: those interventions in Australia and comparable jurisdictions.
23:31
Speaker 2: Helpful for a minority.
23:33
Speaker 3: stabilising or ineffective for many and insufficient, he says, as
23:38
Speaker 3: a primary safeguard against the current threat environment. Now, that, David,
23:43
Speaker 3: has been my biggest criticism. We don't have enough resourcing
23:47
Speaker 3: for ASIO and our police.
23:49
Speaker 2: That's very, very clear.
23:50
Speaker 3: When you push the government and what they are doing
23:52
Speaker 3: to keep Australians safe from radical Islam, from extremists of
23:57
Speaker 3: the ideology, they point to these DRAD programs and you
24:01
Speaker 3: and I know from Australian and overseas experience, they don't
24:05
Speaker 3: cut the mustard, and here's the evidence yet again.
24:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, Peter. This is just appalling, and at
24:13
Speaker 1: least it's out in the open now. I mean, Home
24:16
Speaker 1: Affairs themselves have stated that they do not have a
24:20
Speaker 1: nationally consistent definition of what success in one of these
24:24
Speaker 1: programs is. Now, it seems to combine de-radicalisation and disengagement. Now,
24:30
Speaker 1: they're two very, very different things. You can have someone
24:33
Speaker 1: disengaged from radical people or radical groups or radical material.
24:38
Speaker 1: and isolate them from that, but you haven't changed the ideology.
24:41
Speaker 1: So then you're setting up the perfect storm for a
24:44
Speaker 1: lone wolf attack that still has the ideology, but is
24:46
Speaker 1: then isolated from the community and harder to detect. So,
24:50
Speaker 1: I mean, that's disengagement. It really doesn't work. Deradicalisation, if
24:54
Speaker 1: it worked, it would be good, but I see it
24:56
Speaker 1: more as a unicorn that we're chasing. In fact, looking
25:03
Speaker 1: at those figures, Peter, it looks to me like that's
25:05
Speaker 1: an 84% failure rate. by this government in relation to de-radicalisation.
25:12
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work.
25:14
Speaker 16: Sorry?
25:16
Speaker 2: No, no, you finish, David.
25:18
Speaker 1: We're entitled to ask questions, Peter. In 2022, this government
25:24
Speaker 1: told the Parliament that we'd spent $ 120 million in various forms,
25:29
Speaker 1: various governments, since 2013. Then they betrothed or pledged another...
25:34
Speaker 1: $ 61 million and another $ 106 million is coming. Now, after
25:44
Speaker 1: all this time, they haven't got a set definition of
25:46
Speaker 1: what success is for almost $ 200 million in a 13-year program.
25:50
Speaker 1: I mean, we're entitled to ask, who has entered this program?
25:54
Speaker 1: What effect has it had? Has it been successful? Has
25:57
Speaker 1: it made it worse? And is the community safe? It
26:01
Speaker 1: should be measured by the actions of the people that
26:03
Speaker 1: participate in the course or the program, not the program
26:08
Speaker 1: activity itself.
26:11
Speaker 3: And I want to know too, David, because this is
26:12
Speaker 3: incredibly opaque, who is running these programs? What's the engagement
26:18
Speaker 3: profile like? You know, is there a curriculum that's published
26:21
Speaker 3: as a uniform around the country or is it ad
26:23
Speaker 3: hoc determined by the very individuals in each state which
26:27
Speaker 3: are different? in terms of who delivers the program. I
26:30
Speaker 3: know in the case of Victoria, some of them are
26:32
Speaker 3: delivered by Muslim organisations. Well, if people are ending up
26:36
Speaker 3: about where they went into the program or in a
26:38
Speaker 3: couple of cases there, what, 24, 25, more radical, well,
26:43
Speaker 3: you know, are they getting more funding or are we
26:45
Speaker 3: stopping these providers from delivering these programs? There is basically
26:50
Speaker 3: no audit. Every time I've gone down the borough, it's
26:54
Speaker 3: my weekend homework, and I try and follow the money
26:56
Speaker 3: and look where the mentions are in various annual reports
27:00
Speaker 3: about how many people they have through the door on
27:02
Speaker 3: these programs, age profiles and everything. It's almost designed to
27:07
Speaker 3: make it impossible to get a broad picture.
27:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're spending a lot of money on an
27:15
Speaker 1: unaccountable way on a program that we can't even have
27:18
Speaker 1: a definition of success, let alone measure it and report on.
27:22
Speaker 1: I mean, it's appalling, Peter. I mean, the Australian Federal Police,
27:25
Speaker 1: as we know, has had significant vacancies in counterterrorism from 25%
27:32
Speaker 1: to 39%, as we've discussed in that latest submission to
27:36
Speaker 1: the Royal Commission, and that was brought to Chrissie Barrett's
27:39
Speaker 1: attention informally or through others formally, and here we are
27:44
Speaker 1: spending $ 200 million over 13 years for what? We just
27:48
Speaker 1: don't know. It's not good enough.
27:51
Speaker 3: I want to go to some terrible news just the
27:54
Speaker 3: other day. Federal police officers sweeping on a 30-year-old man
27:57
Speaker 3: who was due to leave Australia to fly to Afghanistan
28:00
Speaker 3: following allegations he had shared ISIS-inspired violent extremism. This is
28:04
Speaker 3: a material in an online chat group. The AFP will
28:08
Speaker 3: allege it swooped on the bloke after finding this disturbing
28:12
Speaker 3: ISIS-related material. beheadings, images of dead children shared in the group.
28:18
Speaker 3: He was attempting to fly out of this country to Kabul. Now,
28:22
Speaker 3: I don't know anything more in relation to this individual,
28:26
Speaker 3: but I am reminded when I went back and listened
28:29
Speaker 3: to a whole lot of podcast material and I read
28:31
Speaker 3: a bit more around the anniversary of 9-11, that a
28:35
Speaker 3: lot of the training of the hijackers, the terrorist hijackers,
28:40
Speaker 3: occurred in Afghanistan. There are still training camps, as you know,
28:43
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan. That would concern me. But this incident, in
28:50
Speaker 3: light of our terror threat level, David, says that we
28:54
Speaker 3: really should be worried in this country and we should
28:56
Speaker 3: be demanding, I guess, confidence from the Prime Minister and
29:00
Speaker 3: others that they are doing everything possible to keep Australians safe.
29:07
Speaker 1: Look, I agree. I mean, there's certain... I mean, this
29:10
Speaker 1: all started, it's a little bit of a textbook intelligence
29:14
Speaker 1: lead from November 2024 when someone came back into Australia
29:18
Speaker 1: and was identified as having radicalising material. Now, that's a
29:22
Speaker 1: good place to start. And from there, it has been
29:24
Speaker 1: developed by the AFP into now a network of six
29:27
Speaker 1: people that are sharing this extremely radical, allegedly, extremely radical material,
29:33
Speaker 1: which further confirms or normalises, desensitises them to the actual
29:39
Speaker 1: horrors and violence of it and works as propaganda to
29:41
Speaker 1: recruit other people to the radical side of Islam. So
29:45
Speaker 1: I'll give credit to the AFP in that they've developed
29:47
Speaker 1: it and they have seemed to have taken action before
29:51
Speaker 1: an event. This did not happen with Naveed and Sajid
29:55
Speaker 1: Akram before Bondi. This is exactly the opposite of that.
30:00
Speaker 2: I'll leave it there, David Craig. Thank you.
30:02
Speaker 3: Look, just before the break, related to all of this,
30:04
Speaker 3: I want to play some comments from the former boss
30:06
Speaker 3: of Home Affairs, Mike Pizzullo. He made these comments this morning,
30:10
Speaker 3: reacting to a very worrying statement last Friday on the
30:13
Speaker 3: anniversary of 9-11 about the ongoing terror threat levels in Australia.
30:20
Speaker 13: Mr Burgess put out a very important statement on Friday,
30:23
Speaker 13: might have got perhaps a little bit missed in the
30:25
Speaker 13: 9-11 reminiscence. He advises that ASIO and its partners have
30:29
Speaker 13: fought 33 major attacks since 2014. However, he also says
30:34
Speaker 13: that they're working against.
30:38
Speaker 2: Activities.
30:39
Speaker 13: and intervening before the planning reaches what he calls an
30:41
Speaker 13: advanced stage. So in other words, they're trapping some earlier,
30:44
Speaker 13: 16 of those since Bondi, which when you think about
30:48
Speaker 13: it is extraordinary because it's nine months on, 16 over
30:51
Speaker 13: nine months is almost going at two a month.
30:54
Speaker 15: Right.
30:55
Speaker 3: When I spoke to a lot of experts, 16 would-be attacks,
31:00
Speaker 3: certainly plots, since Bondi is about the biggest set of
31:04
Speaker 3: numbers we've had in this country. So that tells you
31:07
Speaker 3: things are pretty... vulnerable out there in the community. After
31:10
Speaker 3: the break, a stark warning that life as we know
31:12
Speaker 3: it could be transformed beyond recognition. Some say human life
31:16
Speaker 3: might even become extinct. This is AI after the break.
31:26
Speaker 3: We'll go back coming up, a win for a parenting
31:28
Speaker 3: advocate after a tribunal ordered a transgender woman, so a
31:31
Speaker 3: biological man, who used drugs to induce lactation to reveal
31:36
Speaker 3: exactly what was used and what was fed to the
31:38
Speaker 3: infant in a hotly contested court action. I'll get you
31:42
Speaker 3: that update in a moment. But now to growing warnings
31:44
Speaker 3: that artificial intelligence is developing too fast and it's putting
31:48
Speaker 3: human life at risk as a result. That's the contention
31:51
Speaker 3: of former Anthropic employee Jacob Coxon who resigned over the
31:55
Speaker 3: weekend posting on X that people building AI, he said,
31:59
Speaker 3: earnestly believe it could kill us all by the end
32:02
Speaker 3: of the decade. These concerns are not new. They come
32:06
Speaker 3: from the likes of the late physicist Stephen Hawking and
32:09
Speaker 3: other Nobel laureates, including the godfather of AI, Geoffrey Hinton.
32:14
Speaker 3: And now the heads of Anthropic and OpenAI are all
32:18
Speaker 3: calling for AI development to slow down.
32:21
Speaker 6: But there is a greater danger from artificial intelligence if
32:26
Speaker 6: we allow.
32:26
Speaker 13: It to become self-designing.
32:29
Speaker 6: For then it can improve itself rapidly and we may
32:32
Speaker 6: lose control.
32:33
Speaker 4: In the near future, AI may be used to create
32:36
Speaker 4: terrible new viruses and horrendous lethal weapons that decide by
32:41
Speaker 4: themselves who to kill or maim. I assume you are
32:44
Speaker 4: saying literally that you believe that AI could kill us
32:49
Speaker 4: all by the end of the decade.
32:50
Speaker 16: Uh, it Sounds like something that's not real, but I
32:53
Speaker 16: think it is frighteningly real and it's easiest to understand
32:55
Speaker 16: it if you think about real things that happened two
32:57
Speaker 16: months ago. So two months ago, OpenAI agents, AIs, hacked
33:02
Speaker 16: into third-party infrastructure entirely at their own accord.
33:06
Speaker 9: If we take the right paths, then the chance of
33:08
Speaker 9: something going wrong is very low.
33:10
Speaker 2: If we take the wrong paths, then the chance of.
33:12
Speaker 14: Something going wrong could be even higher than that. I
33:15
Speaker 14: think it is unacceptable to be taking like a 10%
33:18
Speaker 14: chance of killing everybody by the end of the decade, obviously.
33:22
Speaker 2: All right, scaremongering are real.
33:25
Speaker 3: Joining me now, University of New South Wales AI Institute Chief,
33:29
Speaker 3: Professor Toby Walsh. Well, Toby, we have talked about this,
33:33
Speaker 3: you and I, a couple of times now. We've got
33:36
Speaker 3: all those warnings I've played for people, obviously that resignation,
33:39
Speaker 3: I think that kicked off a debate in the.
33:41
Speaker 2: Last few days. What's your reaction to the events of
33:44
Speaker 2: last week?
33:47
Speaker 4: Well, I think we need to be a bit cautious.
33:49
Speaker 4: Killing all people, I think, is a very high bar.
33:52
Speaker 4: I don't think that's very likely. It's a bit fantastical.
33:54
Speaker 4: But killing some people, we certainly are. We have AI
33:57
Speaker 4: that develops new viruses. We've got AI that can control
34:01
Speaker 4: autonomous drones.
34:03
Speaker 1: We've seen all of that happening.
34:04
Speaker 4: AI is certainly improving remarkably in its capabilities. What's happening
34:10
Speaker 4: at the moment is that we've got swarms of AI
34:13
Speaker 4: to do things. And we discovered just as with humans,
34:15
Speaker 4: where lots of people cooperate together, they're much more capable,
34:18
Speaker 4: much more powerful. the same as proving true of artificial intelligence.
34:22
Speaker 4: So the tools we've got now are much more capable.
34:24
Speaker 4: I don't think they're going to kill all of humanity,
34:26
Speaker 4: but they certainly could kill a few people if we're
34:28
Speaker 4: not careful.
34:28
Speaker 7: Okay.
34:30
Speaker 3: Well, we're careful if we've got guardrails. I mean, you
34:33
Speaker 3: can see very much with social media. We let social
34:37
Speaker 3: media run right. No one wanted to constrain social media.
34:41
Speaker 3: And now there's this retrofitting, particularly in relation to children,
34:43
Speaker 3: about social a level of protection. We're having all these
34:48
Speaker 3: debates about data centres, how to power AI, but I
34:51
Speaker 3: can't see the debates we should be having around the
34:54
Speaker 3: policy guard rails for the use and the implementation of AI.
34:58
Speaker 2: So why is that not happening?
35:00
Speaker 4: We should be having it. I mean, it's rare to
35:03
Speaker 4: see Elon Musk, Dario Modi and Sam Altman, the leaders
35:07
Speaker 4: of the big AI companies, agreeing on anything. They hate
35:11
Speaker 4: each other. So when they do agree that they would
35:13
Speaker 4: like guardrails, I think we should be talking about, well,
35:15
Speaker 4: why don't we have guardrails? There's absolutely nothing stopping us
35:18
Speaker 4: doing it. And as you point out, let's not repeat
35:20
Speaker 4: the mistakes of social media. Let's get on the front
35:22
Speaker 4: foot with this one and think about some of the harms,
35:25
Speaker 4: the entirely foreseeable harms that are going to be impacting us.
35:29
Speaker 4: Let's make sure we put some protections in. So we
35:30
Speaker 4: get all the benefits, the new drugs, the increase in productivity,
35:35
Speaker 4: but we also try and avoid some of the downsides
35:37
Speaker 4: as well.
35:40
Speaker 3: OK, if we don't have guardrails and the worst does happen,
35:43
Speaker 3: I mean, Australians are human beings. Are we going to
35:47
Speaker 3: basically be the grunt for machines?
35:49
Speaker 2: Is that where we're headed?
35:51
Speaker 4: I'm actually much more concerned about the more insidious impacts
35:54
Speaker 4: it has. Just as with social media, it was the
35:56
Speaker 4: more insidious impacts it had. It was the impacts on teens'
35:59
Speaker 4: anxiety levels, on especially young girls' body image. Those more
36:04
Speaker 4: insidious impacts, I suspect, will also impact quite critical for
36:08
Speaker 4: art of intelligence as we outsource more of our thinking.
36:10
Speaker 4: You know, I joke that the machines have become smarter
36:12
Speaker 4: than us, not because the machines become any smarter, but
36:15
Speaker 4: because we dumb ourselves down. The impact it's going to
36:17
Speaker 4: have on our relationships with each other. 200,000 teenagers in
36:21
Speaker 4: Australia have had an AI boyfriend or an AI girlfriend. Again,
36:26
Speaker 4: I worry, what's that going to do to our ability
36:28
Speaker 4: to have relationships with other humans?
36:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, Toby, I worry about, though, rogue nation states and rogue, say,
36:36
Speaker 3: terror groups. At the moment, we've got ahead of the
36:39
Speaker 3: risk of nuclear weapons in Iran because we've held back scientists,
36:43
Speaker 3: we've had testing regimes with the UN.
36:45
Speaker 2: Obviously, now there's been bobbing.
36:47
Speaker 3: Raids on installations deep in the ground. But if they
36:51
Speaker 3: don't rely on human beings and the big brains of
36:53
Speaker 3: scientists to end up in Tehran to build the nuclear weapons,
36:56
Speaker 3: if they get access via that information via an AI
37:00
Speaker 3: machine or a series of machines, isn't that the real worry?
37:04
Speaker 3: I mean, if it's in the hands of of nation
37:06
Speaker 3: states who agree to international rules, that's one thing. But
37:10
Speaker 3: China going rogue, Russia, Iran, North Korea, or a terror
37:14
Speaker 3: actor like ISIS or al-Qaeda or something, that's what concerns me.
37:21
Speaker 4: You're right to be concerned about that. In fact, the
37:23
Speaker 4: most worrying news that broke last week for me was
37:26
Speaker 4: a report from Anthropic where they had actually identified some
37:30
Speaker 4: people in Iran trying to do some bioweapons research using
37:34
Speaker 4: their AI tool. They identified some Russian hackers trying to
37:38
Speaker 4: build some swarms of autonomous drones using their AI tools.
37:42
Speaker 4: So those are the things. We're putting those capabilities into
37:45
Speaker 4: the hands of everyone and anyone. We really need more oversight,
37:49
Speaker 4: more guardrails to prevent that happening.
37:52
Speaker 3: Okay. Well, you know more about this than virtually anyone
37:55
Speaker 3: in Australia. Are you at the table with the Prime
37:57
Speaker 3: Minister and all the policymakers in Canberra to make sure
38:02
Speaker 3: we get this right?
38:05
Speaker 4: Well, I was at the table. There was an advisory
38:07
Speaker 4: committee the government had, but they disbanded us. They decided
38:10
Speaker 4: they were going to dispense with our advice and they
38:13
Speaker 4: were only going to listen to the lobbying voices of
38:15
Speaker 4: big tech. So, yes, that is, again, somewhat worrying that
38:18
Speaker 4: people like myself who were offering them advice in an
38:21
Speaker 4: AI advisory expert committee have been disbanded. So, yeah, I
38:26
Speaker 4: would love them to be taking more advice from people
38:28
Speaker 4: like myself.
38:30
Speaker 2: All right.
38:30
Speaker 3: Well, that's why I've got you on the show just
38:31
Speaker 3: to make a point, Toby, that you need to be.
38:34
Speaker 2: In the room.
38:35
Speaker 3: Otherwise, we're in trouble longer term. Thank you for joining
38:37
Speaker 3: me again tonight. Professor Toby Walsh there, as you know,
38:41
Speaker 3: knows exactly what he's talking about.
38:42
Speaker 2: All right, quick break after the break.
38:43
Speaker 3: A tribunal orders a biological man who induced lactation to
38:47
Speaker 3: reveal exactly what was fed to the infant. And what
38:51
Speaker 3: does this ruling mean for protecting vulnerable infants and children
38:54
Speaker 3: amid the whole transgender debate? We'll go back coming up
39:02
Speaker 3: more on the One Nation plan to target temporary visa holders,
39:05
Speaker 3: crack down on international students and certainly put a big
39:09
Speaker 3: stake in the ground in the migration debate. We'll get
39:12
Speaker 3: to that in a moment. But now this is complex,
39:14
Speaker 3: so I want you to stay with me, right? The
39:16
Speaker 3: Queensland Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal has last week overturned
39:21
Speaker 3: an earlier ruling that prevented former breastfeeding counsellor Jasmine Sussex
39:26
Speaker 3: from seeking the medical specifics around a claim by a
39:29
Speaker 3: biological man that he induced lactation as a transgender woman
39:36
Speaker 3: to then feed a newborn infant. Originally blocked from access
39:41
Speaker 3: to this information for use in the court, the appeal
39:44
Speaker 3: judges found that the medical information was relevant. And so
39:48
Speaker 3: the courts now allow Jasmine Sussex to obtain evidence about
39:52
Speaker 3: the drugs that were used, how lactation was induced, and
39:57
Speaker 3: the composition and source of the fluid that was produced.
40:01
Speaker 3: So finally, a win of sorts and an assurance that
40:05
Speaker 3: allows the medical evidence to be properly tested as the
40:09
Speaker 3: case proceeds. I'm pleased to say that the woman in
40:11
Speaker 3: the middle of all of this, parenting advocate Jasmine Sussex,
40:15
Speaker 3: joins me now in the Melbourne studio. I hope I've
40:18
Speaker 3: got to step my way through that so people understand.
40:21
Speaker 3: I think some people saw this report and thought, hallelujah,
40:24
Speaker 3: you've won your case. You haven't, but this is an
40:28
Speaker 3: important win in you defending the allegation, isn't it?
40:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
40:34
Speaker 17: I do consider it a win, even though it's, you know,
40:37
Speaker 17: a step along the way and we've still got to
40:39
Speaker 17: have the final hearing, which is going to be, you know,
40:42
Speaker 17: probably February, March next year. by the time we sit
40:46
Speaker 17: down and go.
40:46
Speaker 14: Through it all.
40:47
Speaker 17: But it is a big win for mothers, for babies,
40:51
Speaker 17: for lactation science, what we do actually know about how
40:55
Speaker 17: breastfeeding works in the maternal body. And I think also,
40:59
Speaker 17: you know, more broadly than that, that vilification laws do
41:04
Speaker 17: still need to, cases need to look at evidence, you know.
41:08
Speaker 17: Obviously people's feelings are important, but evidence is important too. And,
41:14
Speaker 17: I mean, you've known me for a few years now, Peter,
41:18
Speaker 17: so I don't think anyone would say that I'm not
41:20
Speaker 17: genuine in my, you know, commitment to mothers and babies
41:25
Speaker 17: and the reason that I'm expressing concerns about you know,
41:29
Speaker 17: male lactation are genuine and they're in the public interest.
41:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we go back to the starting
41:37
Speaker 3: principle here. This was a tiny little baby, a newborn infant.
41:42
Speaker 3: You're a lactation specialist and you wanted to make sure
41:45
Speaker 3: or be confident that whatever the child was drinking, it's
41:50
Speaker 3: their sole source of nutrition, was safe.
41:54
Speaker 17: Yeah absolutely and I mean when I first found out
41:57
Speaker 17: about this case I already knew about the the kind
42:01
Speaker 17: of interest that some people with a gender identity had
42:07
Speaker 17: in trying to lactate so I didn't start from understanding
42:13
Speaker 17: about this case you know in my understanding of the
42:16
Speaker 17: issue and It was very clear from very early on
42:21
Speaker 17: that it wasn't a successful induced lactation and that, you know,
42:26
Speaker 17: thankfully the mother of the baby was also breastfeeding. And
42:32
Speaker 17: it's clear that the mother made a decision, perhaps with
42:35
Speaker 17: the other parent, to stop breastfeeding because there were a
42:39
Speaker 17: range of complications. So, you know, I do know a
42:43
Speaker 17: lot already about what happened and what in this particular
42:48
Speaker 17: instance as well. And so we just need to be
42:50
Speaker 17: able to dispassionately look at what actually happened and obviously
42:55
Speaker 17: if that's in the best interests of babies.
42:58
Speaker 3: I still can't believe we're even having this conversation right
43:01
Speaker 3: now that your concern about an infant has landed you
43:06
Speaker 3: in a court case. And I think we've been talking
43:07
Speaker 3: about this court case for four or five years now.
43:10
Speaker 17: It has been going on. The issue's been four or
43:13
Speaker 17: five years and the the complaint to the Queensland Human
43:17
Speaker 17: Rights Commission was in 2023. So yes. A long time. Yeah,
43:22
Speaker 17: it is a long time. I will be glad to
43:24
Speaker 17: get back to my normal life at some stage.
43:27
Speaker 3: And I want to mention the people who have been
43:28
Speaker 3: supporting you, the Human.
43:30
Speaker 2: Rights Law Alliance.
43:32
Speaker 16: Yeah.
43:33
Speaker 3: If you didn't have them in your corner, you wouldn't
43:36
Speaker 3: be able to fight this, would you?
43:37
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not.
43:39
Speaker 17: And And they've engaged an excellent barrister, Tony Morris, as well,
43:45
Speaker 17: and he's been incredible. And, yeah, without both of them
43:51
Speaker 17: I would have had to have apologised, probably made, you know,
43:55
Speaker 17: who knows what I would have had to have done
43:58
Speaker 17: to make it go away.
44:00
Speaker 3: And then that, as we know, becomes a precedent. And
44:02
Speaker 3: just in that vein, you know, that becomes the template
44:05
Speaker 3: for every other breastfeeding parental expert.
44:08
Speaker 6: Yeah.
44:10
Speaker 3: And we can see very much with the issue of
44:12
Speaker 3: a very sad decision, I think it was on Friday,
44:15
Speaker 3: certainly Thursday or Friday, Friday, I think, in relation to
44:17
Speaker 3: Sel Grover when the High Court denied appeal, leave, sorry,
44:22
Speaker 3: for her to appeal the decision in the Tickle versus
44:25
Speaker 3: Giggle case. And the court basically affirmed the findings of
44:29
Speaker 3: the Federal Court that biology and sexual biology, sex-based biology.
44:36
Speaker 2: And gender are one and the same thing.
44:38
Speaker 3: Now, I'm not that old that I have forgotten the
44:42
Speaker 3: science I was taught at school.
44:44
Speaker 2: They're not the same thing. No, they're not.
44:46
Speaker 17: And I mean, it's baffling what's happened with the federal
44:53
Speaker 17: court and the high court. And my heart goes out
44:56
Speaker 17: to Sal and just want to thank her for everything
44:59
Speaker 17: that she's done. And She knows it's not the end
45:02
Speaker 17: and that, you know, we will get a common sense
45:05
Speaker 17: decision out of the federal court and eventually out of
45:09
Speaker 17: the high court in the end.
45:10
Speaker 3: Or we'll have an election where this should be front
45:13
Speaker 3: and centre, honestly, Jasmine, where the government of the day
45:17
Speaker 3: that is there after the election should be forced to
45:20
Speaker 3: change the law to recognise what is biological fact.
45:23
Speaker 17: Yeah, absolutely.
45:24
Speaker 3: I'll leave it there.
45:25
Speaker 2: We'll keep fighting.
45:27
Speaker 5: Thank you.
45:27
Speaker 2: We'll keep up to date on it here on Credlin.
45:29
Speaker 2: Isn't she fantastic? We love her to death. All right,
45:31
Speaker 2: quick break.
45:32
Speaker 3: After the break, a panel discussion with James Ashby, Nicole Flint,
45:36
Speaker 3: and a very busy couple of days for One Nation.
45:38
Speaker 2: We'll get into all of that in a moment. Welcome back.
45:45
Speaker 3: Let's get straight into it with my panel. Joining me now,
45:47
Speaker 3: former Liberal MP Nicole Flint and One Nation's National Director,
45:51
Speaker 3: James Ashby.
45:52
Speaker 2: James, I'll start with you.
45:53
Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw that interview earlier today
45:55
Speaker 3: on News 24 with Mike Pizzullo, but he was pretty
45:59
Speaker 3: complimentary about the breadth of your policy work in the
46:02
Speaker 3: announcement today in regards to migration.
46:06
Speaker 2: I know there's some issues.
46:07
Speaker 3: Around bringing it down to a net negative zero, leave
46:11
Speaker 3: that to one side. But cracking down on the ability
46:14
Speaker 3: of people to migrate visa classes onshore, I've been saying
46:17
Speaker 3: this for many months, he thinks this is a great move.
46:20
Speaker 2: It goes back to where it was in the Howard era.
46:23
Speaker 3: The problem is, though, mate, you guys are just getting
46:26
Speaker 3: headwinds from old podcasts.
46:29
Speaker 2: What's going on?
46:32
Speaker 9: Well, it's proven to be a very good last fortnight
46:34
Speaker 9: and I think the rest of this week will be
46:36
Speaker 9: very good for One Nation. Both the Coalition and Labor
46:39
Speaker 9: have used migration as a potency scheme. I know this
46:43
Speaker 9: year the federal government alone will clip the ticket to
46:45
Speaker 9: the tune of $ 4. 7 billion, that's with a B, billion
46:49
Speaker 9: dollars in visa application costs. That's what the federal government
46:53
Speaker 9: will make this year and their projected figures through to
46:57
Speaker 9: 2030 is at $ 7. 1 billion that they'll collect in revenue
47:01
Speaker 9: from visa applications. Is there any wonder why migration numbers
47:06
Speaker 9: have been so high? We know what the problems are.
47:09
Speaker 9: One nation have recognised that. We're saying we won't only
47:13
Speaker 9: just fix the problem, we'll ensure that those industries and
47:16
Speaker 9: businesses that rely on skilled labour won't be affected, and
47:20
Speaker 9: that includes people who utilise the PALM scheme and certainly
47:23
Speaker 9: those farm workers. They won't be impacted. But what we'll
47:27
Speaker 9: be doing is saying we need more tradies. They're going
47:30
Speaker 9: to be a primary focus. We need more healthcare workers. Again,
47:33
Speaker 9: another primary focus is And what we'll do is we'll
47:36
Speaker 9: make the lives of Australians so much better so that
47:38
Speaker 9: they can get into a housing market at a much
47:41
Speaker 9: more affordable rate, unlike what the last previous two coalition
47:45
Speaker 9: uniparty governments have done. It's not on. We're going to
47:48
Speaker 9: fix the problem with One Nation.
47:51
Speaker 6: All right.
47:51
Speaker 3: I'll bring in Nicole Flint there because, as I said,
47:53
Speaker 3: good policy, but I think you're talking about yourself too
47:56
Speaker 3: much in the last few days for it to cut through, James.
47:59
Speaker 2: That's the problem, Nicole.
48:01
Speaker 15: Well... Look, unfortunately, we've seen these podcasts pop up and
48:06
Speaker 15: statements by Senator Hanson that perhaps she wouldn't be making
48:10
Speaker 15: now with all the media attention One Nation's getting, but
48:12
Speaker 15: it is completely distracting from whatever policy announcements that they
48:16
Speaker 15: may be making. And it's disappointing, Peter, because whether it's
48:19
Speaker 15: school curriculum, which we know all... the majority of parents
48:22
Speaker 15: want to see cleaned up, whether it is migration and
48:26
Speaker 15: getting that under control. These are the issues Aussies genuinely
48:29
Speaker 15: care about. So I hope we start seeing a lot
48:32
Speaker 15: less distractions from One Nation, because what I do think
48:36
Speaker 15: voters are responding to is how honest and transparent they're being.
48:41
Speaker 15: And it's really disappointing that we still don't have any
48:43
Speaker 15: numbers on migration from Labor and the Libs.
48:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I will say, I do think, James,
48:51
Speaker 3: that Andrew Hastie's got a right to get out there
48:53
Speaker 3: and defend himself. And I think it's absolutely fair that
48:56
Speaker 3: he says what he says, whether you or I agree,
48:59
Speaker 3: he can defend himself. I'm a bit disappointed in the Liberals,
49:02
Speaker 3: because all they've talked about is Andrew Hastie and traitors
49:05
Speaker 3: themselves for seven days. I'd love them to have some
49:09
Speaker 3: policy on the table. I think all of this personality
49:11
Speaker 3: politics in at the moment is getting people more and
49:15
Speaker 3: more angry. We want Canberra focused on the big issues
49:19
Speaker 3: on the table, for ordinary mums and dads around this country,
49:22
Speaker 3: and I don't feel that's where Canberra is, like the
49:25
Speaker 3: digital duty of care. I mean, that's going to get
49:27
Speaker 3: ran through the parliament by Labor and the Greens, and
49:31
Speaker 3: this terrifies.
49:32
Speaker 2: Me, James.
49:34
Speaker 9: Yeah, I wish the Liberal Party would put their dirt
49:37
Speaker 9: unit towards Labor because they're the real enemy and that's
49:39
Speaker 9: who I will be focused on. This legislation that the
49:43
Speaker 9: Labor and Greens Party are looking to pass together, the
49:47
Speaker 9: issue is dangerous. I think it's designed to shut people
49:50
Speaker 9: like you and I.
49:51
Speaker 13: Down, Peter.
49:53
Speaker 3: I won't say it is the Liberal Party dirt unit.
49:56
Speaker 3: I can't agree with you on that.
49:57
Speaker 2: It could be Labor. It could be the media class.
49:59
Speaker 2: Could be Liberals too. I don't know. But let's not
50:02
Speaker 2: dump them in it. I'll leave you both. Thank you, Nicole.
50:04
Speaker 2: Thank you, James. Apologies for the brevity tonight. That's it
50:07
Speaker 2: for me. See you tomorrow night. Here's James McPherson.