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SOLSTICE: Why is the longest night so magickal? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Hello everybody. In our podcast episode today we talk about
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: the solstice. This is one of those strange and amazing
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: astronomical events. We have the longest night of the year
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: and at this particular moment there is a return of
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: the solar forces. Cultures from the beginning of time have
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: noted this particular moment. Psychologically, we discuss how to rest
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: into the wintering process, when our life force goes down
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: under the ground. What are the different solstice traditions, some
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: of the myths of the return of light, and perhaps
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: most importantly, the pregnant darkness of the long night. After that,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: we interpret an interesting dream about the survival of the
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: inner feminine in the face of intense aggression. So we're
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: glad to have you here, and we look forward to
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: talking with you.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Well, it seems to me, and I think to the
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: three of us, that the obvious overt meaning of solstice,
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: which has been celebrated everywhere, for eons by cultures all
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: around the world is the theme of the return of
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: the light. And so it seems very obvious and yet
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: somehow mysterious about what is the big deal about the
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: return of the light.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: And I guess just to sort of put this out
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: at the beginning, we are obviously thinking about the winter
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. Our listeners in Australia... and elsewhere, uh,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: down there. And in, uh, in, in South America, we'll
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: be experiencing something very different this time of year. They'll
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: experience the return of the light six months from now. But, um,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: our frame of reference, of course, is the Northern hemisphere.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: So, um, I thought, let's just think about what the
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: solstice is, um, astronomically, um, So the Earth orbits around
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: the Sun, and the solstice occurs twice a year, and
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: it's marked by the longest and shortest days of the year.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: And this happens because the Earth's axis is tilted as
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: it moves around the Sun. So this occurs when one
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: of the Earth's poles has its maximum tilt towards the Sun,
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: and this happens around June 21st. and December 21st, at
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: least in the northern hemisphere where we are. So, because
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: of this particular tilt, we have, as is going to
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: happen shortly for us, the shortest day of the year.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: And I think in all cultures, recorded history has given
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: us a sense of this, that the shortening of the
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: days and the lengthening of the nights carries this... kind
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: of spectacular psychological process. And there's a great projection that
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: human beings have made upon the great lengthening of the night,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: which since ancient times has been also the most dangerous
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: part of our time, that as human beings, we are
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: more vulnerable at night. We don't see at night. We
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: can't defend ourselves at night. We can't predict what's going
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: to happen, you know, in the pitch black night. And
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: so understandably, there's an enormous feeling about that.
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: There's an inherent human fear of the dark.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Joseph, you said it was a projection and I, I,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: get what you're saying. But I think also, as we're
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: all saying, it's not just a projection. It is a
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: sort of very embodied primordial experience of a kind of death.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And it's the lengthening of the night. And that it
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: gets colder and the growing cycle shuts down and animals hibernate.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: So it's really embodied. a kind of embodied experience. I
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: think even as moderns, we, we are not in touch
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: with that as much. Uh, but, but even so, I
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: think there's an echo of it in our bodies. I mean, uh,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: you know, I think seasonal affective disorder is a, is
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: a echo of that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah. No, absolutely. And kids are afraid of the dark. Uh,
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: you know, I know, uh, My oldest first grandchild would
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: not go down into the basement of when we lived
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: in a brownstone in Brooklyn. And this is a full basement.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: That's where my office was. It was not some sort
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: of dank place with spider webs.
• 6:14
  Speaker 6: It was beautiful. I saw it.
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: But she would not go. She would not go down there.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: And I think the dark psychologically is such a great
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: representation of the unconscious. It's deep, and it's vast, and
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: it's embodied, and it's what we don't know. And we
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: have good reason, I think, from an evolutionary perspective, to
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: fear all kinds of things happening in the dark, that
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: there are predators in the dark. And so it is,
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: as you were saying, Lisa, it's deeply instinctual. And these
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: are the dark days. These are the dark days of
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: the here, when we sink into the unconscious, and who
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: knows what can happen in the unconscious. This is also,
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: I'm just thinking, not that far back, these were also
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: called the famine months. because the harvest had long since
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: been harvested. So you're running out of fresh food. A
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: lot of the animals would be slaughtered, so there was
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: meat for the winter, and some, no doubt, were preserved
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: so that they could reproduce. But it was a difficult
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: time of the year, and sometimes people starved.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I can remember in college as a young adult, you know,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: this is a tough time of year if you're a
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: college student, at least for me it was, because, you know,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: it's dark, it's cold, and of course it's exam time.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: So stress is really high and it's, you know, it's
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: these winter exams, not the, you know, at least the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: summer ones, you're sort of like, you know, there's a
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: sense of culmination or you're going to have a summer afterwards,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: but no, this is just This is just really hard.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And I, I would, I would get, it happened several
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: years in a row where I would get very low
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: and then I'd suddenly realize, oh my God, it's, you know,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: December 20th or it's December 21st. And I would note
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: that my, my very low mood coincided with the darkest
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: day of the year or thereabouts, you know, close enough.
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: So I think, I think we, our bodies know.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: I think our bodies know, too. We've spent, I don't
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: know how many millennia, living in nature and close to nature.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: And it's hard for us in modern times with high-rise
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: buildings and electricity and all kinds of things to remember
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: how deeply embedded in the calendar year and in nature's
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: cycles we really are. And you referenced seasonal affective disorder.
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: And part of me really wonders if we have given
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: something a negative label that is also very deeply embedded
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: in us, that we have a body cycle that tends
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: to slow down. We want to sleep more. We make
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: more melatonin when the days get dark. And of course,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: it can plunge some people into a terrible depressive state.
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: But we still live according to nature's rhythms and timing,
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: even though we tend to forget it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: And interestingly, the idea that there's more melatonin that's produced
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: is that melatonin suppresses sexual androgens. So it prevents animals
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: in the woods from breeding. are giving birth during a
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: time of the year that's very, very difficult to survive
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: and food sources are very low. So that shift of
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: testosterone and estrogen also is an enormous effect on people's moods,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: their energy levels, et cetera. So I think as you're saying,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: this response that our brains have to the amount of
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: light that we see, suggests that we are so profoundly
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: attuned to the lengths of the days and the nights
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: and how it affects us so deeply. And there's a
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: way in which our whole survival, physically and psychically, has
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: something to do with this idea of how much light
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: and how much darkness there is. From that standpoint, with
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: the approach of winter, we know that, at least historically,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: in harsher climates in the north, that the life retreats
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: from above the earth and it goes down into the roots.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: And this is part of also the Persephone and Demeter cycle.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: That Persephone who is associated with spring and flowering and
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: fruiting is drawn down into the earth and that there
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: is a secret life that is occurring underneath the earth
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: Demeter is grieving, and so the plants go into stasis,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: and animals hibernate, and food. As you were saying, Deb,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: it's the famine time. The abundance is less. But I
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: think the Persephone myth is letting us know that in
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: the underworld, there is this enormous churning life that is occurring.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: In the Eleusinian mysteries, this was a very, very important
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: part of that religious process of going under the earth
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: as a kind of death and coming back up to
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: the daylight as a part of rebirth. And the Persephone myth,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: I believe, was part of the mythology of the Eleusinian mysteries.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: So what does that mean psychologically? If we were to
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: rest into the wintering process, What might that look like
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: for each of us?
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: I really like that phrase, rest into the wintering. And
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: for me, it's evocative of, you know, can we use
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: it for rest intentionally, a slowing down, self-reflection, quietude? And gestation,
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: even though this wasn't a time for animals to regenerate,
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: something clearly happened for Persephone when she was in the underworld.
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: She went down as a maiden and she came out
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: as queen of the underworld. So how do we rest
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: into this time of year and use it to become more,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: use it for some kind of inner growth rather than
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: a barren and difficult time. It can be barren, difficult,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: and fuel.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: For growth all at the same time. Well, Deb, your
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: reference to gestation brings up another image for me, and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: that is the image of the bear. Now I might
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: get some of this wrong. So if there's any bear
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: biologists listening, you can write in and correct me, but
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I believe that bears birth their cubs maybe toward the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: end of their hibernation. So they emerge in the spring
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: with these new cubs. And that's, that's part of why they, they, that,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: that was part of their kind of mythological significance is
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that they, they, they go into hibernation in a kind
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: of an, a sort of death like state. but emerge
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: with new life. And, and I think that speaks to what.
• 14:39
  Speaker 6: You were saying.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, so, so this is very, uh,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: unusual for us to think about how can I turn
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: toward the darkness? How can I use the darkness as
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: a place for gestation and renewal and find that life
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: in the roots that you talked about, Joseph, which in
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: some sense, you know, um, getting a, um, some special
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: light and sitting underneath it for 20 minutes a day.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, if it helps, that's great. On a symbolic level,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: that's kind of an image of a manic defense, right?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting to anyone who finds that helpful
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: not to do it, but that we're going to artificially
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: impose light where there isn't any and force ourselves to
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: operate as if rather than honoring the natural cycles and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: using it as a time to maybe inhabit a low
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: place and see what there might be for us there.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: You know, there, there is wisdom in, um, there is
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: wisdom in darkness. There is wisdom sometimes in depression.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: One of the great, uh, benefits, I think, of the
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: wintering is spending more time paying attention to our dreams.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Just quite literally. We're not outside. We're not mowing the lawn.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: We're not doing a lot of the outdoor sports we
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: might have done during the spring, the summer, and the fall.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: So there's this retreat towards the hearth fire. There's a
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: retreat towards the sleeping. And being liberated from a lot
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: of the summer outdoor expansive dynamics, you know, this is
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: a time to linger in bed for 20 more minutes
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: and try to remember the dream or to have a
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: little more time to jot it down or ponder it.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: And I associate that very much with hibernating. I have
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: to say that I have, ever since I was a kid,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: I found the whole, The whole thing of bears hibernating, astounding. Okay.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, just like their bodies recycle their water, like
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: their kidneys create this uroboric cycle where their fluids move
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: in and out and they don't need to eat. They're
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: barely awake. Mother bears give birth when they're hibernating. They're
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: really almost asleep. When it happens and then the babies
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: kind of crawl up and start suckling, I mean, it's
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: an astounding thing. But when I imagine the hibernating mother
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: giving birth and suckling to the cubs under the ground,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: it gives us this extraordinary image of new life that
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: is emerging and being nurtured.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that the life force is underground.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: But it is darn active. It might be sleepy. It
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: might be subtle. But there's a lot going on. So dreaming, journaling, yeah. Yes.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say some of this is
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: reminding me of Stan Marlin's book, The Black Sun, The
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Alchemy and Art of Darkness. Yes. So this idea of
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: a kind of pregnant darkness that's fertile. It's not jubilant.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: It's dark and it's heavy, but there's something fertile in it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: That's the mystery. I'm linking this with a Persephone myth
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: that you mentioned, Joseph, and with bears. of the mystery
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: of how life generates in the dark, in the womb,
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: in a bear, in the underground, where we don't know
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: and we can't see, and yet something moves us to
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: create new life, literally, in the case of bears, and psychologically.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: in the case of us, that the underground and the
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: dark days represent the unconscious versus ego and solar, sun, light, spring, activity.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: And understandably enough, we like that. And yet half our time,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: more or less, is more dark than light. Must be
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: useful somehow.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: And you had mentioned melatonin. Very interesting. Melatonin is generated
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: in the pineal gland. The pineal gland is the gland
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: in the center of the head that is associated with
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: this tracking of the light. It's also associated in many
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: yogic traditions with enlightenment, light, enlightenment, that these subtle changes
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: in the pineal gland as a result of meditative practices
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: and yoga actually changes how the brain functions so that
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: we can become aware of altered states of consciousness that
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: are particularly associated with spirituality and a kind of spirituality
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: that grants an experience of the unity of all life,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: which is such an interesting irony that we associate the
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: wintering with the withdrawal of life. And yet melatonin and
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: dreaming and these altered states give us an opportunity to
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: expand beyond our limits. And so in the darkness, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: in the privacy of the darkness, that we can grant
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: ourselves permission to at least conceptually move beyond our current limits.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: And that has something to do with that shift out
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: of ego consciousness, because it's the ego that says, here's
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: the schedule. We're up at 7, we're at work by 8.30,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I'm coming home at the end, then I've got this
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: to do, and this to do, and this to do,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: and he's there. And in the wintering, when certain things
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: are taken off our plate, or at least it might
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: have been when we were in agrarian culture, you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: working in the fields, there's this opportunity to expand in
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: the inner world, which in many ways is far, far
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: broader than what our waking consciousness would have thought. So
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: that time of poetry and even religious feeling, So around
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: the solstice, we also have to talk about the idea
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: of the birth of the great saviors. Yes. So, of course,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: the birth of Jesus happening right around this time, which
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: makes sense that in the darkest metaphysical time of the
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: human soul, that there needs to be this enormous response,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: spiritual response.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: So that there is something in the human soul that
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: can stand against the darkness and not be consumed by it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: And this goes to the ambivalence about the unconscious, that
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: if the ego is intact, much like Persephone, we can
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: go into the underworld and return with a sense of
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: potency and maturity. But if the ego is immature, and
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: we become engulfed by the unconscious, then we are subject
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: to savagery and chaos and impulses that can be remarkably
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: destructive and self-destructive. So it's not a sure bet to
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: be swimming around in the unconscious.
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: No, it's not.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: So I think in the Christian mythos, Christ being born
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: here at the solstice is this hope. that consciousness can
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: stand against these destructive unconscious impulses, that there is a
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: new civility, there is a birth of mercy, which is
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: a uniquely human trait, because it is a decision to
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: stand against our purely instinctive survival impulses and to consider
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: something that The environment itself might not suggest that mercy
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: is a transcendent consideration. And so we have the idea
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: of redemption. And to be redeemed is an intervention, a
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: restoration from beyond that purely instinctive realm.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Into a philosophic consideration.
• 24:28
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• 25:20
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• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Dream School is just the thing. So head on over
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: to our website, thisunionlife.com, and sign up.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about how incredibly reassuring it is that restoration
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: is promised. that at the darkest hour, there's a dawn,
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: to invoke some old trope, even if I'm paraphrasing it,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: that there is light in the dark, and that that's
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: a promise. I also like very much you referencing that
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: ego has to be able to stand and hold its
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: own against the dark. But to have a separate space,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: to be able to stay intact, not to fight it,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: but to somehow use it, to somehow maintain its own integrity.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: And I have often wondered, you know, what was it
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: that Persephone did all day while she was down there
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: in the underworld? You know, at first she had to
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: sort of survive the trauma of her terrible abduction by Hades.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: But then she was down there for, different myths give
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: different timelines, but let's say four or five months. And
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: did she wander around in the tunnels? Did she meet
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: the wise man Tiresias and have conversations with him, what
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: kinds of treasures did she discover, but something happened that
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: when she emerged, she was queen of the underworld, and
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: she had incredible magical powers. And I think it's a
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: wonderful image of how the darkness and the gleam of
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: light of the solstice of it just turning into slightly
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: more light can be inspirational and can help us stand separate, differentiated,
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: and conscious in the face of darkness.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: So, leaning into the Persephone myth a little bit, is
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: one of the things that happens to Persephone is that
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: she discovers her fertility. We know that when she was
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: in the underworld that Hades gave her some pomegranate seeds
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to eat. And any of us that have cut into
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: a pomegranate, I mean, what happens is that the blood
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: red juice begins to flow. So to eat the pomegranate
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: is also for her transition to move out of the child,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: the core, into fertility. Freud called that prepubescent stage latency.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: So it's in the mystery of the darkness that we
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: move from being childlike into being fertile. And of course,
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: that changes her status, that she is no longer the little,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: little child of Demeter, but that she is a fertile
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: human soul. And so it often is in the darkness
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: that we discover that we are fertile, that there are
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: things that we can give birth to, like the bear,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: or that Persephone, there is a menses cycle that begins
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: in her own fertility and the power of being fertile
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: is restored to her or granted to her rather in
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: the darkness.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Well, and the, the kind of climb climax of the
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Eleusinian mysteries, apparently, I mean, we don't really know cause
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: the secrets were well guarded, but it was, you know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: that Persephone would appear and she would have become.
• 29:36
  Speaker 6: A mother So.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I think there was a cry like Brimo has become
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Brimos or something like that. And so that goes exactly
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: to what you're saying that, you know, while Persephone was
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: hibernating down there, she became generative. And that was the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: transformation that happened. So she returns, but she's different. It's
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: not a restoration of what was there prior. There's been
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: some change.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: Development.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: And I believe in one of the myths that she
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: is pregnant with Dionysus. She is one of the mothers
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: of Dionysus. Yep. Again, all of these extraordinary secrets that
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: happen in the dark. The other myth that I think
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: is relevant is the myth of Isis and Osiris. Isis
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: and Osiris are really the daytime gods and goddesses. They
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: teach winemaking and harvesting and the cultivation of wheat and culture.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: and beauty and all of these kinds of products of
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: ego innovation. Seth, or Set, who is the envious brother
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: of Osiris, who is associated with the darkness, with the solstice,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: with the underworld, grabs hold of Osiris and chops him
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: into pieces and scatters him all around. And so there
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: is this intractable problem that all of this luminous potential
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: is now lost. And Isis decides that the one who
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: can solve the problem is the sun, Ra. But she
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: has to trick Ra into giving her the secret of resurrection,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: because the sun would seem to set in the west,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: Travel in some magical way through the darkness and be
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: reborn in the East. And so she sets a serpent
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: into the path. So when Ra passes, the serpent bites
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: him and he becomes deathly ill. And Isis happens along
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and says, well, you know, I do have a cure
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: for this viper that's bitten you. But in order for
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: me to want to give that to you, you have
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: to give me the secret of your true name. Because
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: if you have the true name of something, then you
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: have all of the secrets and power of the one
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: who has given you the name. Sarah hems and haws,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: but eventually says, okay, here's my secret name. And then
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: having the secret name, she then has the secret of resurrection,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: which she then uses to resurrect Osiris. but he is
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: resurrected in the underworld. And he is sewn together. She
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: is impregnated by him. But in the outer world of daylight,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: he is a mummy. But in the underworld, he is
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: brilliant green. And the green is associated with having come
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: full of life. So he rules. over the living and
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: the dead, and he judges the dead as to their
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: fitness to go into everlasting life. We may recognize that
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: theme in other religions, by the way, so interestingly.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: That was beautiful, Joseph. You know, talking about how these
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: themes recur, one of the things that strikes me about
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: solstice celebrations the world over is is how many of
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: them have light as their theme. Of course, you know,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Christmas time we associate with, you know, candles and fireplaces
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and Christmas lights. And it's fun to drive around and
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: see how, you know, what decorations, what lights, light displays.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: We go to light displays and there's a really beautiful
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: one at Longwood Gardens, not too far from me. And,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: you know, Christmas is a lot about light. And of course,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Hanukkah has a very different origin story, but the important imagery, uh,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: or some of the important imagery is the menorah and
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: the lighting of the candles and the feast of, um,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Santa Lucia in, in, um, Scandinavia, which, uh, was originally, um, uh,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: you know, pagan. It was associated with Norse traditions. I mean, the, the,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: the classic thing, and they actually still do this at
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: a Swedish church here in Philadelphia.
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: They, um, the girls.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Actually wear lit candles on their heads. I've, I've been
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: to the service here. There are people along the aisles
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: with buckets of water, but, um.
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: Practical matter.
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: It is, it is very beautiful. So, uh, um, but,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: but in, in, in the Norse times, um, There would
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: be lighting of fires to ward off spirits during the
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: dark nights. Yalda is a Mithraic solstice tradition that still
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: is practiced in Iran. And it was the birth of
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: the sun god Mithra also. And it was seen as
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: the victory of the light over the dark. So just
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: again and again and again, um, there are images of
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: light this time of year. And I, I think it
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: goes to, we were talking about how embodied this experience.
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: Is of solstice. It's also, so it's instinctual.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: And of course it's also archetypal and the, the archetype
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: of the return of the light or the, the, the resurrection,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: if you will, or the rebirth, whether it's, um, Mithra
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: or Persephone or, you know, Christ, that something gets reborn
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: this time of year. And, you know, I can, again,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: I can feel it. I have a sense of relief
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: on December 21st because what I know is that December
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: 22nd is going to be a little bit longer. And
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I can sort of feel that in my body.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: So, What I'm thinking about is the Jungian term, one
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: of the first mysterious ones I came across, of enantiodromia.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: And when I first started in a Jungian seminar about
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: 150 years ago, I came across this word, and I
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: remember I was so enthusiastic, and I, somehow had some
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: other question for the seminar leader. And I said, do
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: you know what this word means? And he said, yes.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: But it's such a great word. And as I understand it,
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: it's not the swinging of the pendulum. You know that
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: the pendulum swings one way and then the compensatory force
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: will be It swings back the other way. But it
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: is what we're talking about, that the mystery is that
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: somehow the opposite is born. So that in the darkness,
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: the darkness itself gives way, gestates, yields to, creates its opposite.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: And I think that's embedded in a lot of what
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: we've been talking about, that, you know, how did Persephone
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: become queen of the underworld? You know, that there is
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: the mystery of gestation, whether it's bears or, you know,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: the birth of the magical savior child at this time
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: of year. And that's the joy, I think, and the
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: promise of is that light will be born of the dark.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: And part of the good cheer of this time is
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: also captured in the Saturnalia of the Roman world.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: For all the bad press that Saturn gets for other reasons,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: apparently when Saturn ruled the ancient world, it was the
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: golden time of humanity. that it was the best time,
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: the most prosperous time culturally in terms of resources. And
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: then Jupiter overthrew Saturn and all this turbulence started happening.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: But the Saturnalia has to do with the harvest. And
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: in December, really, there still are food stocks. The fields
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: have finally been... claimed all of the fruits, all of
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: the pumpkins and squash and everything else, and there's still
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: meat in the larder. And during the Saturnalia, there is
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: this great celebration. of the abundance of the fall. And
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: people would walk along the streets and they would say, Sigillaria,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: which is basically Merry Christmas. Yeah. Good abundance. This is
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: the golden moment where we get to cease the outer
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: work in feast and trust in the goodness of the gods.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: So that wonderful greening, good cheer that we associate with
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: the solstice and Christmas.
• 40:07
  Speaker 6: Thinking of the ghost of Christmas present.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Yes. Santa Claus, who was another.
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Dr. Nalia, you know.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: And in those times, the drinking and feasting was, you know,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: a time of the famine months. You would compensate by
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: drinking and gambling and carousing and, you know, having abundance until...
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: There would be gift-giving and all kinds of things. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: then the Protestant Reformation happened.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Oops.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: All the dour contraction.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: And then it became, they tried to change it into
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: a religious holiday, a more sober and solemn one. And
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: Charles Dickens, you just referenced a Christmas carol, Lisa. And
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: his effort was to make it a family holiday. So
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: to preserve the joyfulness of it without going into the
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: Saturnalia of Roman times and beyond. But that sounds like fun,
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: doesn't it? I mean, there's been definite revival of that
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: in modern times.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: And we also need to think about the myth of
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Attis and Cabal in as much as Cabal is the ancient, ancient,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: ancient birth goddess, pre-Greek, pre-Roman. She gives birth to, as
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: often happens, her son, who becomes her first high priest,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: and her lover as well. The gods often fertilizing each other.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: And Attis gets into this enormous conflict of whether he
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: should serve the goddess or fall in love with one
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: of the village girls, this intractable problem he cannot solve.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: He rushes into the forest and castrates himself. And as
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: he is bleeding to death, his blood strikes the ground,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: and the ground erupts in violence. Hebel senses that something
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: tragic has happened and rushes to him to save his life,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: turns him into the first evergreen tree. And so the
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: solstice is also the time of the harvesting of the
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: evergreen tree. They would entomb the tree, dress it like Attis,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: and then bring it from the earth in the spring.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: But evergreen trees for Attis and Ivy, for Dionysus, because
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: as anybody knows, if you've got English ivy growing in
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: your yard, it never goes away.
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: You can mow it down, you can spray Roundup on it,
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: you can pull it out, and the next thing, you
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: turn around and the ivy's growing out of the ground again.
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: But it is this irrepressible, evergreen life that the winter
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: and the solstice and the darkness cannot destroy. So the
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: evergreen foliage, the rising of the sun, the fertilizing energy
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: of the dark, the birth of the bears, the pregnancy
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: of Persephone, all of the life in Hades.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: It's the promise of continued life.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: I didn't know that that had been born of the
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: legend of Addison Cabell. But funny, I came across pine
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: tree also as the symbol of long life and immortality
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: and constantly constancy, courage, and steadfastness, which takes me back
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: to what you were saying earlier about ego's ability to
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: stand against, stand in the darkness with that evergreen of
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: the pine tree, that we can be there. And of course,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: the Puritans, I mean, they were in the 1840s, this
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: was a real no-no that Christmas was sacred and We're
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: not doing this Christmas tree thing, which fortunately has. But
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: you see, but there it is, the power of the symbol,
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: even if you don't know the story.
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: That's right.
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: You know you want a pine tree. You know you
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: want the light. You want that tree.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something about the tree with the lights on it, right?
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know it speaks to us, again, at
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: the level of the archetype. And so even if you,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: you know, many people who are not of the Christian
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: tradition or, you know, I mean, you know, we appreciate
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: the symbolism of that, I think, no matter what tradition
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: we're from.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Remind me here, Jung has a wonderful story I think
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: it comes from a dream where he realized that he
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: is holding this tiny candle of consciousness.
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: In the dark.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Remind me, where does he say that? That's in Memory
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Streams Reflections.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Is that from a dream that he had?
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: It is. He had a dream that he was holding
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: a little candle in a storm and he had to
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: cup his hand around it to protect the light. And
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I can probably find it pretty quickly if you like.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I'll look.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: That'd be great if we can find that. But that
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: is Jung's solstice.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: The little light of ego that is able to stand
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: against the great darkness.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: And that the whole great venture of Jungian analysis and
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Jungian work is to kindle our flame higher against the darkness.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: To be able to stand in the vast unconscious, to
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: stand against our complexes and the confusion of the darkness,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: to stand against our nightmares, the misfortunes that we have,
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: and to trust that being conscious or kindling consciousness in
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: the face of these unpredictable unconscious forces is a path,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: is a way to be. And that to extinguish the
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: light is to extinguish consciousness. And so much of our
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: venture here as we move towards the end of another
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: year of our podcast The great venture of our work
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: at This Jungian Life is to do what small part
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: we can to kindle consciousness, to recommend that book, to
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: encourage people to look at their dreams or interpret a
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: dream and hope that some little bit of light is
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: useful for the person who submitted their dream or for
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: people to join us in dream school and to meet
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: with other people and to kindle their light. in the
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: midst of the darkness.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: And that the darkness helps us kindle our light. That's
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: the generative power of dreams, which we're forever talking about.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: That psyche and the darkness, the unconscious, is generative.
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: Would you like to hear the dream?
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Yes, let's do it. Okay.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: So I believe that this was during his student years.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: So it may have been when he was at university.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: About this time, I had a dream which both frightened
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: and encouraged me. It was night in some unknown place,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: and I was making slow and painful headway against a
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: mighty wind. Dense fog was flying along everywhere. I had
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: my hands cupped around a tiny light which threatened to
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: go out at any moment. Everything depended on my keeping
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: this little light alive. Suddenly, I had the feeling that
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: something was coming up behind me. I looked back and
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: saw a gigantic black figure following me. But at the
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: same moment, I was conscious, in spite of my terror,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: that I must keep my little light going through night
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: and wind, regardless of all dangers. When I awoke, I
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: realized at once that the figure was a specter of
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: the Bracken, my own shadow on the swirling mists, brought
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: into being by the little light I was carrying. I knew, too,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: that this little light was my consciousness, the only light
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: I have. My own understanding is the sole treasure I possess,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: and the greatest. Though infinitely small and fragile in comparison
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: with the powers of darkness, it is still a light.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: My only light. And that's memories, dreams, and reflections.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: So what a discovery to be granted.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: In a dream.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: That even though the light of our consciousness may seem
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: small as we stand against all the mighty and terrible
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: storms that are in the world at this moment, collectively, geopolitically,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: perhaps moving in our own personal lives, but that tending
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: our own consciousness is a response, even to the great
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: storms that are happening in the world, much of which
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: Jung attributed to human beings not being adequately conscious and
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: subjecting themselves to these collective thought groups, submitting to propaganda,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: and yielding into the homogenizing diminishment of consciousness. And that's
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: the other side of the darkness is that in the darkness,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: you cannot distinguish the difference between things. You can't tell
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: if something is blue or green or yellow or orange.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: You can't see, perhaps depending on how dark it is,
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: you can't see at all that we're kind of groping
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: and maybe can get a vague sense of how things feel.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: But when consciousness is diminished, God forbid extinguished, we are
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: much more vulnerable to illusion, to untruths, to being manipulated
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: by strange algorithms and social media, to be saturated by propaganda, etc.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: etc.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: It's the light of consciousness that allows us to discern
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: one thing from another and to walk with safety in
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: the darkness, even if the safety is only a small
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: circle of light that's just a foot in front of us.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: But at least for that foot, you can see what's
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: around you.
• 51:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about your phrase, the homogenization of consciousness.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: You know, and how we turn some of these amazing
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: images like Jung's dream that I'm so glad you could
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: find it so fast, Lisa. But we turn it into
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: a little trope, you know, this little light of mine,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: I'm going to let it shine, which is wonderful and
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: it's dear. But I'm picking up on your point, Joseph.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: It is crucially important. That each one of us find
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: our inner light of consciousness and protect it and grow
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: it and stand in the darkness with it because change
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: is not going to come from any place except within
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: us first. And so it may seem like, oh gee whiz,
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: what can I do about all kinds of difficulties in family, community,
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: the world at large. But that dream of Jung's says
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: it beautifully, is protect and guard your light, and it
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: will let you see and sense your shadow behind you.
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: And that's meaningful. That matters. That's part of it.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: And that the light had to be shielded. that our
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: consciousness is vulnerable, that we cannot watch terrible images on
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: the news for eight hours and expect our nervous system
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: to be just fine about it, to listen to the
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: propaganda of whatever agency, news agencies, we submit to hour
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: after hour after hour and expect our tiny little light
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: of consciousness to withstand the barrage of material that we're
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: given or that is blown upon us like a great wind.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Instead of the small insights that come from within us,
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: what do you think? Not what some news commentator thinks,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: but what do you think? What do you perceive? What
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: do you sense is important? Do you feel it is important?
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: For you, in this enormous world where millions of things
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: are happening all the time, which brings us back to
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: the wonderful gift of the solstice where there is a contraction.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: One of the gifts of the cold is that it
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: contracts things. It expands things. So as it's 35 degrees
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: outside and it's Right now it's cloudy and it's kind
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: of silvery and I don't really want to go outside
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: and mess with the yard. And, you know, I want to.
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: Overeat is really what I want to do actually.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Stuff my face with fudge. That is not a contraction.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: That is an expansion.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: That's a Jupiterian expansion of that. Santa always has a
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: big belly for a reason. But we do. There's a contraction.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: And so whether it's a contraction where we're shielding that
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: little light of consciousness, but this contraction inside ourselves and
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: that dropping into the rhizome is consciousness that's curious about
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: the rhizome. And the rhizome is that place from which
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: we emerge as our authentic self. And as I think, Deb,
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: you've talked before about, you know, inside an acorn is
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: an oak tree, and inside that oak tree, which is
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: yet to sprout, is an acorn.
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: And inside of that acorn is an oak tree. It's
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: only through our retreat to the rhizome, that we can
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: rediscover the natural matrix that we are. And so all
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: of the conditions of our lives that cause us to
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: retreat down below the earth also gives us an opportunity
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: to shed the luxuriant bullshit that has grown out of us.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: All of the leaves, the decorations, the fruiting, the the
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: bizarre affectations, the clothing and fashion and money and possessions.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: You know, it's in the beginning of the wintering that
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: all that falls off the tree.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm aware that as we have talked about
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: the solstice, That there is in me, and I think
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: among us, but, you know, you tell me, a spirit
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: of real joy, of reassurance, and sort of an everlasting,
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: this is the great cycle. We are part of it. Yes.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: And it has ever been and it ever will be.
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: And so I want to, you know, sort of say,
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: whatever your tradition is, you know, good tidings, happy holidays. Yes,
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: we wish you good solstice. The light will return.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Sigillaria! And so let's transition to a dream. Our dreamer
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: today is a 75-year-old male who is a teacher. And
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: this is his dream. I take my cat Charles, a
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: black and white socks cat, to someone's apartment, a place
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: I thought was safe. but the person's dog walks forward
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: and bites into Charles' face and just holds on. When
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: it lets go, Charles runs away. I find him, and
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: he's alive, but his face is terribly disfigured. I take
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: him home, while my wife, understandably, is quite upset to
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: see him. And he writes that the significant context is
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Charles was my best friend in a certain community where
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: i lived for five years in the early 90s he
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: loved me unconditionally he disappeared way back then i'm not
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: aware of any big transitions currently my wife and i
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: have come a long way together in the 20 years
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: of our marriage and are generally doing well these days
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: He says his main feelings were really just horror to
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: witness his violence, and then the damage that it appears
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: will be lasting looks rather grotesque. And for associations, he says, Charles,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: the cat, is like my heart almost, so deep and dear.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: No personal associations with the dog. My wife is sensitive
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: to the visually grotesque in real life.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: You know, this seems to me a whole subcategory of dreams,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: which is kind of what I'm going to say like
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: a wounded or lost animal dreams. It's not uncommon to
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: have these dreams. I've certainly had them. I've worked with
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: lots of people who've had them. We get dreams like
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: this on the podcast. And I think it always shows
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: some way that we're not sort of tending to ourself
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: well enough. There's some tender... soulful aspect of ourself perhaps
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: that we've been remiss. We haven't cared for ourselves well enough.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that comes up for me
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: about this dream is, first of all, I wish we
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: knew something about this place. The dreamer says, I take
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: him to this place that I think is safe. But
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: the dreamer has.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: Made a miscalculation.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: And so I'd be really curious about what this place is,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: you know, are there any associations to this place? Is
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: there anything you can think about this place? Does it
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: remind you of anything? Who are the people there? You know,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: just really search for any, uh, more information about the
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: place that might help you understand what that place is
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: symbolically that you've taken this cat to. And the other
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: thing I'll say on, on this theme is, um, The
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Dreamer mentions that, you know, Charles was like his heart.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: And I've had a cat like that. I've had a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: soulmate cat. And boy, that is a really special relationship.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: And I'm struck that the Dreamer says, you know, and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: it would be interesting to go back and look at
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: this community where he lived in the 90s with Charles.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: But I was struck by the fact that Charles disappeared.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Because if you have a cat like that, My guess
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: is that if the cat disappears, that there's a tremendous
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: sense of guilt that you somehow failed the cat, that
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: you let it escape and get away and maybe some
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: ill fate befell it. So that seems related to me, perhaps,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: to this idea that somehow he hasn't made the best
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: choice when taking care of the Charles the cat part
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: of himself.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: I'm curious, in the significant context about the dream where
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: he writes, Charles was my best friend in a certain community,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: I was assuming that that was a human Charles. That
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: just the name Charles was something he was associating to
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: the cat. Am I understanding that correctly?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: No, because the title of the dream is Charles the Cat.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 6: So I think Charles.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Charles was his best friend who loved him unconditionally.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: Okay. All right.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 6: That's that. That's my assumption.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: Well, my first thing that strikes me is most people
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: don't take their cats around to other people's homes. Um, that,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: that in and of itself is an unusual thing. I
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: can't imagine anyone who's ever, um, called me up and said, hey, listen,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: I know we're coming over for dinner. Mind if I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: bring my cat? I have on rare occasions said, do
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: you mind if I bring my dog?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: But cats are so independent that it's so rare to
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: have to travel with your cat.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 6: Well, and they don't like the car, and they don't
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 6: like new places.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: You're right. Yes, yes. They can run all over.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 6: Why is he bringing the cat somewhere? That's a great question.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's a very unusual thing to do. So... As
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: you said, the great flaw is that he thought this
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: person's apartment was safe. And then, you know, this sad
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: thing happens. What it makes me think of is that
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: some of us, often, if we've had a difficult childhood,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: develop a promiscuous trust. And you see this in children
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: who have been mistreated in one way or another that
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: as adults that they will be overly trusting or make
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: overly trusting assumptions so he brings something that to me
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: seems rather soulful you know his best friend cat he
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: brings it to a place that he's not really Sure,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: he's decided it's safe, but it's someone's apartment or other
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: and it's not. So some people who are very, very
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: sensitive and again have promiscuous trust will often come into
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: the analysis and frequently say, once again, you know, I
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: met with, you know, my friend and I disclosed, you know,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: one thing or another and then they were said something
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: biting to me or they said something cruel. Or they
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: mistreated the information or mistreated my feelings. And then the
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: person feels resentful or betrayed or hurt. But the dream
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: is suggesting, well, why are you bringing a cat? Why
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: are you bringing your soul around to environments or introducing
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: it to people that are vulnerable or that make you
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: vulnerable to getting bitten? In a certain way. I think
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: that there are certain typologies that are a little bit
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: more vulnerable to this. Introverted feeling types have a tendency
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: to show up and disclose really intimate material, soulfully important material,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: and underappreciate how sensitive they are to having that mistreated.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: You know, I also wonder about the dog, because on
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: the face of it, no pun intended, this is a
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: terrible thing that's happened. And there is a feeling of horror,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: but I am just curious about what happens if we
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: lean into the possibility that the dog is somehow the
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: medicine in the dream. That the dog's ability to be aggressive,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: where the cat is all soul, you know, is that
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: somehow an undeveloped part of the dreamer or a part
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: of himself that he doesn't have a good relationship with, um,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: you know, so where is that?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: Where is that in?
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I'd be curious where the dog part is in the marriage,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: for example, you know, there's this kind of shrinking away
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: from feeling of horror on the one hand, but, uh,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: but a marriage needs both the tender cat part and the, um,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: aggressive dog part too.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: So say more about how, um, the dreamer might work
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess, I guess I would say, you know, this,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: this a little bit falls into the category of something
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: we talk about a lot that, you know, the least
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: trustworthy attitude is out of the dream ego. So the
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: dream ego and his wife were horrified, but is it
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: possible to imagine, I mean, I would just sort of
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: try it on as a hypothesis. Is it, is it
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: possible to imagine that somehow, um, this was, uh, was
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: necessary in some way, you know, was it, or, or
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: helpful or what is, what was, you know, I might ask,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: what was the dog responding to was, you know, was
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: the dog just trying to protect the house? And again,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: it would be helpful if we knew more about the
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: house or the person that it belonged to. But, but, um,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: and then I, I think I would also wonder like, I,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: if the, if this were my dream, I might ask myself,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: so where is my kind of dog like aggression? Which
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: I think relates to what you're saying, Joseph, because if
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: this is a person who's kind of overly trusting, you know,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: sometimes that kind of tracks with not having good access
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: to your healthy, aggressive instincts. So, you know, where is
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: my dog part? You know, is my dog part kind
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: of turned inward on me so that it's attacking my
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: inner cat? Or can I bring it to bear in
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: situations in the outer world where I need to be
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: protective of myself, for example? You know, is there, you know,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: where is aggression in the marriage if he needs to?
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, he says they've been through a lot and
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: they've kind of come through. But, you know, a part
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: of a marriage working well is that both people can
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: sort of uh, assert themselves and say, this doesn't work
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: for me. I need more of this, you know? So I,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: I don't have any reason to believe in particular that
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: any of that is going on in his marriage, but, uh,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: those are some things I might explore.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: So another, um, path into the dreams, could be just
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: the feeling of horror. And just resting into that and
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: asking the dreamer to just track the horror that he
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: has felt in the course of his life. Secondary to
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: the symbols in the dream. As you had said, it
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: may very well have been that, his inner cat and
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: his inner dog have been in a great clash, which
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: can say something about the relationship between his inner masculine
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: and his inner feminine. And what does it mean to
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: have a disfigured cat that you now are nursing inside?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: Often the feeling of horror that we have can also
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: make it very difficult for us to be in relationship
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: to some inner part. Because when we say we're horrified,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: we're overwhelmed. It's so inconceivable, so grotesque, so unexpected, that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: we're in some kind of a state of shock. And yet,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: he has discovered that there is an inner feminine instinct
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: that has been disfigured It's interesting that it says disfigured
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: rather than, let's say, injured. Because disfigurement is particularly related
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: to how something looks. Being injured connotes that there's something
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: now wrong with the functioning. So the dog and the
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: cat interact with each other And this feminine instinct looks horrible,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: looks disfigured, grotesque. And so what does one do at
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: that point? And I wonder what he will do now
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: that he is aware that the feminine inside of him
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: has been disfigured, or is harder to love, or not
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: as pretty, perhaps, as he might have thought it was.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. He's like a scrappy alley cat.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: A scrappy alley cat with maybe one eye and one
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: of the ears really torn up. What do you make
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: of the dog biting the cat's face of all the
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: places that it might bite it?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I, I like what
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: you were saying about, you know, it changes how something appears.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously that, you know, in real life, that
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: would be a terrible injury that could endanger, you know, eyesight, um,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: the ability to, you know, depending on where it is,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: the ability to eat, it would be a serious injury. Um,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: but it, it also, uh, you know, there's, there's something about, um,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: sort of it wouldn't likely be fatal. It's not like
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: the dog went for the juggler. And the dog also
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: just holds on, you know. That reminded me a little
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: bit of the Norse god of war, Tyre. And he,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: they're trying to trick, I think his name is, Joseph,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: you can help me out. But they're trying to trick,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: is it Fenrir, the wolf?
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to bind him because he's going to be, I'll
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: have to double check the name, but this is the
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: wolf that's going to bring about Ragnarok. So they have
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: to bind him and they want to bind him with
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: this magic cord. But he smells the trick and he says, okay,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: I'll let you do it if one of you will
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: put your hand in my mouth. And so the god
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: of war, Tyre, agrees to do it, and Fenrir bites
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: off his hand. But there's this sense of the kind
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: of unrelenting quality of it, that the dog is going
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: to bite the face and not let go.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking of seeing dogs attack small animals and They
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: normally just grab them and then they shake them violently,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: which often injures the spine. So it's unusual to have
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: the dog just standing there holding the cat's face and
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: then just releasing it. That would be an unusual thing
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: to behold. Which does make it seem more like some
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: strange behavior. unconscious ritual process.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 6: That's it. That's a good point.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: So when the feminine goes into the mouth of the
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: masculine and then returns, it is disfigured.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: There's a lot to consider here. So we hope we've
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: given the dreamer some ideas. Yes.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to This Jungian Life. From our website, thisjungianlife.com,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: help us produce future episodes by funding us through Patreon,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: and submit your dreams for possible interpretation on another episode.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: We'd like to thank our listener who shared a dream
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: for today's show and hope you'll let us know what
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: topics you'd enjoy hearing more about. Until next time, keep
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: living this Jungian life.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you.