Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / David Sucio | Michelin Stars, Chef Stories, and the Culinary Journey | Chef's PSA x Sucio Talks Special Episode 130

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David Sucio | Michelin Stars, Chef Stories, and the Culinary Journey | Chef's PSA x Sucio Talks Special Episode 130 · Chef's PSA Podcast

0:00
Hello chefs, This is Chef's KSA podcast special episode, Sucio
0:03
Talks Podcast. Also my guest today is David
0:07
Sucio Gallotti. He's the host of Sucio Talks,
0:10
one of the best chef podcasts out there.
0:12
We sit down and we talk for two hours.
0:14
This episode is going to be split in two.
0:15
You're going to catch Part 1 on Chef's GSA.
0:18
You're going to catch Part 2 on Sousio Talks.
0:20
Part 2 will also be available for premium members on Chef's
0:23
PSA. Chef David is legendary in the
0:26
game. He's working some great
0:27
restaurants, including the restaurant on Meadowood.
0:30
He was there for a number of years and saw one of the best
0:32
restaurants achieve the pinnacle of success.
0:35
We have a very fun conversation. We're all over the board.
0:38
We talk about everything that needs to be discussed in the
0:41
kitchen. This is a fun one.
0:44
It does turn into Sousio Talks sometimes.
0:46
Sometimes it stays Chef's PSA. Stay tuned.
1:00
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with your first order. What's going on do?
1:44
You see those? See those Texas Michelin awards.
1:48
I did see the Texas Michelin Awards.
1:50
Any any shockers? No shockers.
1:54
I have yet to like go to the list in detail because I feel
1:59
like it's going to take a while. You are the biggest state, you
2:01
know what I'm saying? And there's a lot of Bib Gormans
2:05
and a lot of one stars. A lot of recommend.
2:07
Yeah, exactly. So is Bib Gorman not a
2:10
recommend? You know, I'm not 100% clear,
2:14
'cause there's the recommended category, there's and then
2:16
there's stars. So Texas Lone Star State, right,
2:20
Right. We got a lot of one stars.
2:24
You think? I I stole that joke from someone
2:27
so if if the chef that the chef that mentioned that to me will
2:31
know who it is. Yeah, I stole that joke.
2:33
But no it was nice to see a lot of my friends on stage right.
2:36
Most of the people that were in all categories outside of
2:40
Houston, like I, I got to be honest, I need to learn more
2:42
about the Houston scene because I, I didn't, I didn't know
2:45
anyone personally that was from Houston, but a lot of the Dallas
2:48
people, a lot of the Austin people, I knew everyone San
2:50
Antonio. So shout out to all the winners.
2:53
We had some BBQ restaurants, first time ever BBQ Michelin
2:58
star, right? So you want to hear something
3:00
funny? When I was opening the last job
3:04
I had, we, we rented a house to do R&D because, you know, we
3:07
couldn't get into the kitchens and we had about a month to do
3:10
R&D for all these restaurants that were open.
3:12
So we rented a house here in Austin behind the restaurant
3:16
launderette. And so we'd go in there, you
3:19
know, team of eight chefs and every day we're just cooking on
3:21
the small stove, ram and everything out white board,
3:23
right? And so we have the team in
3:26
there, but almost every day, you know, when it's time for lunch,
3:30
like what are we going to eat? Well, the BBQ right up the
3:32
street. So we go eat at the BBQ.
3:34
I think they were in the quickie pickie.
3:35
OK, I think it was a quickie pickie.
3:39
But we'd go in there, we'd order BBQ, whatever.
3:41
It's like that's Michelin star BBQ every day.
3:43
That was my, that was our lunch, right?
3:45
We have Michelin one star food every day for lunch.
3:47
That's pretty dope, man. I mean, you know the decision
3:50
making on that. It gets up in the air whether
3:53
people like it or not, especially in our circles,
3:56
right? People have very opinionated,
3:57
but I am, I'm happy for Texas. I'm happy that he's got his foot
4:01
in the door and it's it's only going to make your ecosystem
4:04
better here with cooks and restaurants and chefs and so,
4:08
so. You were in a three star.
4:10
I was, yeah. What is was that?
4:14
Had you worked in a one star before or did you?
4:15
Start. No, no, started at a three star.
4:18
He worked under Jake. Yeah, I worked under Jake.
4:20
Shout out to Jake. Yeah, shout out to Jake Rojas.
4:22
He came from Robichon, which was 3 in Vegas when the guy was
4:26
still there. And you know what, Mexi, now
4:29
that we're talking about Texas and having the guide, I'm sure
4:32
at some point Vegas is going to be like, all right, come back.
4:36
You know what I mean? You're going to feel a little
4:37
left out. You know, either that or someone
4:40
had a disagreement over a golf game, maybe on the top levels of
4:44
those companies, and now you know they're not.
4:46
I heard that World's 50 is coming to the.
4:48
I don't know if that's true and it hasn't been confirmed, but
4:51
you know how the rumor mills are.
4:52
Like, I knew Michelin was coming to Texas a year before or more
4:55
than that before they announced. I've heard World's 50s coming
4:58
from that same chef, Right. You know the fucking what?
5:01
Was that the the underground? Yeah, the Chef Underground.
5:05
Chef. I've heard World's 50s coming
5:10
and they're going to do a United States list, right?
5:13
So just like they have the Latin.
5:14
America, well, they said we're part of the world with the
5:15
that's. That's the rumor.
5:16
I mean, they were in Vegas. Yeah, right.
5:19
So I wonder if that'll, like that'll incentivize.
5:21
Vegas has a strong food scene. Vegan Vegas always has had a
5:24
strong food scene. I mean, I think anybody that can
5:27
pull off multiple buffets in the city and still like be in
5:31
business, that's a fucking that's a good thing.
5:33
When when did you start cooking? I was 14.
5:37
No, but what year? Was the what 2004?
5:41
So I remember like 2004 Vegas is like everyone wanted to work in
5:47
Vegas every. I mean, you got Robichon, you
5:49
had like you said why? Like, yeah, I don't even know if
5:52
Gordon Ramsay had touch foot in Vegas.
5:54
Around no. Casas over there.
5:56
Right. Every single big chef from
5:59
France that had three stars had an outpost in Vegas.
6:03
Definitely. It was wild.
6:04
And so everyone, all that talent is going through Vegas.
6:07
So many good chefs. You know, Michael Mina's
6:09
building an empire in Vegas. Jake Rojas is now going through
6:12
Vegas. Who who you worked under?
6:14
But it's interesting to see all that talent going to Vegas.
6:18
And then where did it go? I think you bring up a good
6:21
point. The great migration of cooks
6:24
always happens during that time, 2004, if you remember, people
6:27
were going to go Stars and Noma, right?
6:30
So right after that, Vegas 2004, 2005 and and up right maybe till
6:36
2013 was like go to no Monstage, go spend your your six months at
6:42
Mugaritz. It was like getting pumped up.
6:45
At that, if we were going to either learn how to forage, how
6:50
to cook cooked molecular Garcia right, It's like where which
6:54
direction, chef, do you want to learn how to make bubbles or do
6:58
you want or do you want to play with the dirt?
7:01
Most times it was both because a lot of these, you know, when
7:04
when the other restaurants of Copenhagen started getting in
7:07
like the geraniums and the fucking a Moss, right, like all
7:12
these places came out of nowhere and then it was like, oh, it's
7:15
on. So you saw Vegas, You saw Spain.
7:20
And they went to New York, 'cause I feel like that's always
7:23
the hub, right? It will always be the hub.
7:25
And no matter what anybody says, I think.
7:27
Do you think when Vegas was on top?
7:29
Yeah. Do you think they were stronger
7:31
than New York in services? Absolutely not.
7:33
No, No, I don't think so. You don't think when Ducasse had
7:36
mix and and and and they had Fluor de Lee and you know Thomas
7:41
is opening up Bouchon over there.
7:42
I mean, I know it's not French Laundry, but everyone had their,
7:45
I mean, Joel Rubuchon is there and he has the little mansion.
7:48
Yeah, yeah. You don't think Vegas was
7:50
stronger than California? And he always, I think about
7:53
this a lot and my, my answer is always no.
7:56
Because in Vegas, even though you have all these great
8:00
restaurants, you still only have 4 three stars, right?
8:04
In New York. And it's they're not all three
8:06
stars, but it's so saturated that the fact that someone went
8:11
to your restaurant after they have two million choices is a
8:15
lot crazier to me than going to Vegas, having 10 great
8:18
restaurants and choosing to go to one.
8:20
One out of 10 to me is like a little bit less than one out of
8:24
a million, you know, do. You think the San Francisco Napa
8:27
restaurants are stronger than the New York restaurant?
8:29
They were five years ago. If you would have asked me that
8:32
five years ago would have definitely said yes, like
8:34
Meadowood was still around, you know, and I'll say it right here
8:38
on the podcast when when I was there, we were a 100% better
8:43
than the French Laundry. OK, I will just say right now,
8:46
shots fired, 100. And so then I always told chef,
8:49
like the fact that that restaurant burned down, like
8:51
you're three stars are forever immortalized.
8:54
You'll never lose them. You know, I actually sent him a
8:58
picture the other day because he brought me up to the rubble
9:00
after the fire and I have a sick picture of him, like looking
9:03
over it, just hand on the hip. Like what?
9:06
What is this? But you had Meadow Wood.
9:08
You had the French Laundry. Yeah, you.
9:09
I'm trying to think, who else was big.
9:11
And you had Corey Lee. So at that time there was, there
9:14
was only two, three stars at that time in 2013 when I moved
9:19
here. So what happened was everybody
9:22
from New York went to San Francisco and and Meadowood,
9:28
French Laundry, Cezanne, like all of these places started
9:32
popping up a little bit after that.
9:34
And then I remember Cezanne I think was the first restaurant
9:37
to get three stars after the the two spots that had it for the
9:40
longest time, right? Because that was the biggest
9:43
drop. When you hear all the chefs that
9:44
Meadow would be like, yeah, we're the one of the only two,
9:47
three stars Past Alinea. There was no, you know, because
9:51
the guide had left Vegas. And Alinea was the only three
9:54
star because L2O had it. Yeah, with Laurent Grot and he
9:58
left and then Kirkley took over. They went back to.
10:00
One, I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I worked with a cook.
10:04
Frauds. Had two.
10:05
Yeah, exactly from that time. I'm not sure where he is in the
10:09
industry now, but just the level of angst and energy for when you
10:14
have three stars go down to 2 and then try to get back to
10:18
three. Yeah, that is, that is a push
10:20
that who went. Who went from 3:00 to 2:00?
10:22
You were saying Kirkley when he took over L2O so.
10:25
Yeah. So L2O had three and then
10:26
exactly over I think that went. Down.
10:28
But I thought it was funny that Kirkley went over to Qua.
10:30
That's right, got his third star and he was like, peace, bitches.
10:33
I just wanted to prove it to myself, right?
10:36
His food is so unique. Yeah, it's so like, you remember
10:42
he had that little radish tart so.
10:45
School me chef. So I don't remember exactly what
10:47
it was on it, but I just remember thinking, fuck, that's
10:48
a lot of radishes. They're all punched out little
10:50
radishes into. Oh, right.
10:52
It was crazy. I mean, in the way I saw him
10:54
compete for Bokus. And I mean, he's detailed.
10:58
Like I like, I, I geek out on like chefs that have the
11:01
patience to just sit there and make something so intricate and
11:04
beautiful. And it's like he's one of those
11:07
chefs that's just his work's intricate.
11:10
I ate at L2O when he was the chef there and, and still like
11:12
there was some intricate stuff there.
11:13
I was like, yeah, I was, I was very impressed.
11:15
Definitely. That kitchen was wild.
11:16
So they had a so do you remember?
11:19
Like I'm pretty sure the French Laundry pioneered this, where
11:21
people would take down the pass with linen.
11:23
Yeah, right, 100. Did you guys do that at
11:25
Matterwood? We would use silhouettes.
11:27
Right, so then a lot of restaurants now use Chilliwack.
11:29
Right. Which I think is smarter.
11:31
It's easier. Definitely smarter.
11:33
I'm like, do you remember that you that linen bill?
11:35
Yeah, just on linens that you're going to absolutely destroy with
11:39
oil. Like just imagine that bill, the
11:41
replacement bill. Like, dude, you know, I don't
11:44
think they were the first ones because I think that probably
11:47
comes from restaurants in France.
11:48
The Chilwich or the? Linen, The linen, the linen,
11:51
yeah, you know, but they definitely pioneered it in the
11:54
US because I don't think anybody was doing that.
11:56
So they they do the Chilwich now and I, which I again, if
11:59
restaurants are listening, get the custom Chiliwick mat instead
12:01
of shaping down. It's so much more efficient, so
12:03
much more. But.
12:05
When I was at L2O, the way Laurent Grant had had it set up
12:08
is I'm pretty sure because I toured the kitchen afterwards.
12:10
We were having dinner and then I went and got a little kitchen
12:13
tour and I looked at his like, I'm pretty sure he had silicon
12:15
mats over over everything. And I don't know if this is true
12:19
or not. He used to have a blog that was
12:21
pretty, pretty. Did you ever see it?
12:24
No. So he had a blog, Laurent Gras
12:26
when he was opening up L2O and he was documenting the process
12:29
of everything that it took to open up a great restaurant.
12:32
His recipe iteration, the equipment he was buying, his
12:35
thought process for down to the way he's making the dishes and,
12:38
and revising them, the butter, whatever.
12:40
Right. So they said that he had these
12:46
these mats on the table that were, what's the words escaping
12:51
me like basically big trivets. OK, Right.
12:55
Yeah, yeah. Hot pans anywhere.
12:56
Silicon. They're silicon, right?
12:58
Silicon Trivets. But it was just a cover like a
13:01
the stainless is covered there because he didn't want to hear
13:03
the noise of the thoughts, but he wanted to help Silent.
13:05
Right, right. Of course he did The OC.
13:08
He's kick. It is like no no no put put it
13:10
down to the 0 pan, bang on the pan.
13:12
That's like one of those kitchens where you drop
13:14
something and you're like, yeah, everybody's like, what are you
13:16
doing? And you're like.
13:18
Yeah, that, that like if there's there's chefs that you hear
13:21
about like legendary stories. I heard legendary story.
13:24
I've never met Laurent Gras, but he's one of those chefs that,
13:27
you know, you, you meet a lot of these icons, right, The Daniels
13:30
and the Thomases. And but then there's these
13:33
legends that the legends have stories about Laurent Gras, one
13:36
of those chefs. I would have loved to have met
13:37
him because I've heard so much crazy shit about this guy that
13:41
that was like made him, you know, like the, he's kind of
13:45
like a Paula Brandt type genius. What was it like that when you
13:50
were at? Meadowood yeah, definitely to
13:52
watch. That's what one of my sous chefs
13:55
kind of alluded to at the beginning.
13:57
When I got there, they were like, my favorite part of
13:59
working here is getting to watch the magic as it unfolds in his
14:03
brain, like getting to see how the dishes are formed.
14:07
And not only that, getting to see how he got the best out of
14:12
the best. That was the wildest part
14:15
because his sous chefs, I mean, that lineup was stacked.
14:18
You know, the first person I heard about in that kitchen
14:23
that's legendary is Chef, Chef Kim, who is a bad ass Kim
14:30
Floresca. And she actually had to like a
14:34
little excerpt written about her in a book called Stashier that
14:37
came out back in the day about all these people that would like
14:40
go to these places. Dude, she's worked at the French
14:43
Laundry, like Alinea Moga Reed. It's like everywhere she's
14:46
worked at. I think her resume has got
14:48
probably over 100 stars on it. It's nuts right now.
14:52
I believe she works for Goop like the Gwyneth Paltrow
14:55
whatever line the candles. But I think so.
14:58
Yeah, I think there it's much more than that because I think
15:00
she it's like botanicals for the skin products.
15:04
Chef, you know what I'm saying? Well, I hear Puerto Rican semen
15:07
is good for that. So it's you Funito, right.
15:11
So somebody put the other day they're like Kim Kardashian uses
15:14
Puerto Rican semen on her face. I'm like, no wonder.
15:18
In the line of Puerto Ricans. Anyway, where was I?
15:23
This is not Chef's PSA podcast. It's turning into Suseo talk.
15:27
So where was I, Chef? You're going to have to you're.
15:28
Talking about the stars here. Yeah, so she, she starts there.
15:32
And just when I got there, she wasn't there anymore.
15:34
Yeah, but you would still hear about her.
15:37
And that's the coolest part about going into a kitchen where
15:40
people were still talking about the old crew.
15:43
Nowadays you walk into a kitchen and they're like, we fucking
15:46
hated the old crew, you know what I mean?
15:48
It's like there's no more kind of respect there because they're
15:51
like, oh, they, they put up with these long hours, huh?
15:54
Those toxic. Yeah, must have been a weak
15:57
minded person. And I'm like, no, we just worked
16:00
hard, right? Right.
16:02
And which brings up another kind of question that I always ask
16:05
myself. It's like, you know, to get your
16:06
10,000 hours. Like I told somebody the other
16:10
day, I worked on Meadowood for six years and they were like,
16:13
you worked there for 12 years, right?
16:15
Because you work in 16 hours a day.
16:18
And nowadays we want to, you know, a shorter work hours and
16:23
this and that. But like, how are you going to
16:25
get your 10,000 hours? Is it going to take you 30 years
16:29
to become great, you know, to become at least proficient?
16:34
Like where are we at with that? You know, I think I think we
16:37
really need to think about the future of training young cooks
16:40
and like how we approach it because in the mentality of
16:44
like, well, like shifts done, I'm off.
16:48
Do you think that though there's a couple of thoughts, Yeah.
16:52
So there you could take the approach of doing the 10,000
16:55
hours to get proficient before 10,000 hours with 10,000 hours
17:00
when the only place you can get information was books and in the
17:03
kitchen, right? But now social media shortens
17:06
that because you don't have to wait for cookbooks anywhere.
17:08
You could, you could learn techniques if your chef didn't
17:11
know the technique. I'm just making this up.
17:12
Let's say you want to learn how to make a Pateon crew and your
17:15
chef didn't know how to make it. So you'd have to well, who's
17:18
going to teach me? And then I'm going to have to
17:19
stylish somewhere and then I have to make sure I take good
17:23
notes or I'm not going to I'm going to miss the one detail on,
17:26
you know, whatever they did right, making the emulsification
17:28
of of the Pate. But now you can watch chef steps
17:32
Pate on crude video over and over again.
17:34
You don't have to travel. You don't have to wait for your
17:37
chef. You don't have to wait to work
17:40
for a chef that knows how to make it because you go right to
17:42
the best chef and learn how to make this.
17:44
So it does short. You still have to know how to
17:46
make it, but there's less work in getting access to
17:51
information. That's a good perspective.
17:52
So the economy of time has changed, right?
17:56
Right. And as we go into the future,
17:57
people are just going to know stuff quicker or be able to do
17:59
stuff quicker. Right, so like I'll get on
18:02
ChatGPT and it's like, OK, I I don't understand this.
18:05
I don't remember what word it was.
18:06
I was watching a podcast. I was probably watching Sue.
18:08
You're talking said something. I was like, what does he mean by
18:11
this? Right.
18:12
What does this word mean? I haven't I haven't ever heard
18:14
that word before. And then it means this.
18:15
OK, got it right before it's like, oh, do I remember the
18:18
word. I got to go find the dictionary.
18:20
I'm never going to remember it next time I'm in front of the
18:22
dictionary. It's like now you just you could
18:24
learn things much quicker. Doesn't mean you're going to
18:27
retain it. So I heard the story the other
18:29
day. I was talking about, you know,
18:33
mythology. And so the person that invented
18:37
writing the the God that had come down and invented writing
18:40
and was like, look at what I did.
18:42
I taught you guys how to write and he, he went and explained
18:46
this either to the king or the pharaoh.
18:47
I don't remember the story. But then they said, no, no, no,
18:49
that's not a blessing, that's a curse.
18:50
You just ruined our memories, right?
18:54
So learning how to write ruined their memories to remember
18:57
things because they didn't have to write before that, they had
18:59
to stories, right? So the gift of now you can learn
19:04
this much faster, but what did you?
19:06
What was the exchange? What's the trade off for now?
19:09
Learning everything quicker. There's also the journey that
19:12
you took to get there. Yeah, you know, to like when we
19:16
were buying weed back in the day, you know, I was.
19:19
Selling. It There you go.
19:20
I'm just kidding. I'm.
19:21
Just kidding. Half the the journey is like
19:24
meeting up with the guy, you know what I mean?
19:26
Or wherever it's going to be, it's some random parking lot.
19:30
And like that, like, anticipation, you know?
19:32
And by the time you get the bag on the blunt, you're good.
19:35
At the end of the night, you're like, yeah, like we did it, you
19:37
know? But nowadays, like, oh, I just
19:39
go to the store, you know what I mean?
19:41
And I kind of miss it. I kind of miss the mystery of
19:44
like, am I, is this guy ever going to hit me back up or like,
19:47
is it, is it, are we done? You know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:49
And so I think the mystery be it for, yeah, the mystery gets
19:53
taken away. But I just wonder what our new
19:55
mysteries will be. Yeah.
19:57
Like as we know more, what will be the unknown, you know?
20:01
Well, no one saw Alinea coming before Alinea, you know, no one
20:06
could have particularly like the next hot thing is going to be
20:08
Alinea. No one knew Noma what was the
20:11
next thing before it came out. So whatever is the next thing,
20:14
we don't know. Yeah.
20:15
Like we could speculate, but we don't know because we didn't see
20:18
Noma coming, right? We didn't see a Linea coming or,
20:20
or you know, Ferran who's coming out of space.
20:22
Like just it's we'll know when we see it though, right?
20:26
We'll know when we see it. But I don't think anyone could
20:28
sit here and say, yeah, I, I, I know what's next.
20:32
You know. I was, I was working with, I
20:36
won't say who, but I was working with this really big powerful
20:39
celebrity chef like. A list like Emeril more than
20:43
Emeril. But not more famous, but more, I
20:46
would say more technical. OK, OK, right.
20:48
Like just the a list of the a list of in the three Star World,
20:52
Right, right. We're we're doing something and
20:56
he's about to go give a speech and they say, hey, chef needs to
21:01
talk to you. Like, oh shit, what did I do?
21:04
All right, now my heart's beating.
21:05
Like what did I do? I I, I screwed up, I'm in
21:07
trouble. And I go over there and I'm
21:10
like, I'm making the walk. I'm nervous, I'm sweating.
21:13
And I'm like, yeah, chef. And he's like, where do we buy
21:18
this from? And I I'm thinking I bought the
21:21
wrong thing. It's like, no, we bought it from
21:23
this vendor. This is what it is like, OK,
21:24
great. Then he walks away.
21:25
Then he goes on stage and gives his B and this comes from this
21:27
farm. And I'm like, I'm like, oh shit.
21:30
He does the what exactly? What the rest of us do.
21:33
Right, right, right. Like all the teams doing all the
21:35
work and the the big chef shows up, it's like, OK, what?
21:38
What am I going on? Yeah.
21:39
What are we doing? Is this lunch or dinner?
21:41
I always made a always made a joke of the the chefs that are
21:44
too big get to somewhere and they're like, what's this event
21:46
for? Which restaurant?
21:47
Like, who are we today? Yeah.
21:49
You know that, right? Because I mean, it's hard to
21:51
keep up with, you know? And and that's the hard part,
21:54
right? Because you're, you're a cook.
21:56
And then when you're a cook, you only kind of respect chefs that
21:59
cook alongside you. Yeah.
22:00
But then you get to that sous chef level, and then you
22:03
appreciate the chefs that leave you the fuck alone so you can be
22:06
the one that's cooking right now.
22:09
And it's, it's hard. The trajectory of being a cook
22:13
now or a chef is so different, right?
22:16
Because you could literally go on Top Chef, not know how to
22:18
cook, and still have, you know #1 restaurants in New York City
22:22
or wherever the fuck else, right?
22:24
You know what I'm saying, right? Well, I, I think a lot of people
22:27
would be shocked, especially when I talk to young cooks, a
22:29
lot of them are shocked to find out when they get into the
22:32
industry and they go work in these name restaurants.
22:35
It's like so and so is not even in the kitchen.
22:37
Like, wait, did you think? Yeah, they was, did you think
22:39
that they were? You know, it's like, I promise
22:43
you, Gordon is not showing up in working service.
22:46
I promise you that. And and and that's Gordon.
22:49
But I mean, I promise you, even the chef that probably has two
22:51
restaurants or three is not, we didn't have to use Gordon as the
22:55
example like the big name chef that that now has three in
22:58
their, in their empire. Like they're probably not
23:00
working the line either, right, Right.
23:02
Sometimes, sometimes even the big ones with one, you know, the
23:06
chef, the cuisine or whoever's like, you know, setting them up.
23:11
And I think that's a big misconception.
23:13
It's like, no, it's not that they can't cook because I'm sure
23:15
they still can. Because like we're watching Mike
23:17
Tyson and Drew a whole lot. He's still Mike Tyson, but he's
23:21
60 year old Mike Tyson. You know, he's not, he's not,
23:26
he's not the same guy. What do you think about the
23:28
fight? I mean, I, I think I knew what
23:30
was going to happen. Yeah, we did.
23:32
I, I don't know, man, I thought, I thought we'd see a little bit
23:35
more out of Mike, but that's just because I love Mike.
23:38
So I'm like, you know, but I definitely do think like Jake
23:42
held back a little bit too, because, you know, I don't think
23:47
he wanted the hate that would come if he did not Mike Tyson.
23:51
I will say in round 3, in round three, you saw Jake start
23:56
lighting him up a little bit, and I think that was when Jake
23:58
realized I could probably close the show.
24:01
Yeah. And then he took his foot off
24:03
the gas in the remaining rounds, Right?
24:05
Well, he was. Doing like this, like, you know,
24:07
that was his taunting and I'm like, I don't think that that's
24:10
like, you know, I. I I think, look, I used to box
24:16
and the other day I was playing around with someone and I was
24:21
like, man, I used to be able to, I would be able to smoke this
24:23
guy before. But like now it's like I can't
24:26
like my timing's a little off my knees.
24:27
I can't bend, I can't twist. And it's like I'm not even
24:30
Tyson's age, right? So I, I know like, yeah, he
24:34
probably still hits hard, but everything else is not the same.
24:37
You know, the knee. I mean, I have a, my house, I
24:40
have to go up and down the stairs to watch TV or whatever.
24:42
I'm have to walk down backwards sometimes because my knees are
24:44
not great, My back's not great. So I look at that as like, I
24:49
didn't even go through what Tyson went through training and
24:52
and all this is like, you know what I mean?
24:54
Like if I can't use my knees, I saw it in the first round.
24:57
So again, I geek out on boxing, but I saw in the first round
25:01
Tyson threw something and his knee buckled and I saw that I
25:05
was like, yeah, OK, his knees are gone.
25:07
And then like he'd get off balance and you'd see his knees
25:10
kind of wobble. Like not even from being hit,
25:13
just he would move and his knees would kind of shake.
25:15
I was like, yeah, his knees are done.
25:16
And then you saw that in the later.
25:18
I was like, he was just stationary.
25:19
He moved a little bit in round one and two.
25:21
After that, he just stood there, right?
25:22
His knees were. Done.
25:23
I was expecting the the shutdown after round two because
25:26
honestly, that's what he did when he was younger.
25:28
Yeah. He just had to knock everybody
25:30
out before the 2nd rounds and you know, but we never saw that,
25:34
right? And I remember at the beginning
25:36
when he was doing that, people were pissed off because they
25:38
paid money for a show and people weren't going to watch Mike
25:42
Tyson fights because they'd be done in 10 seconds, right?
25:45
You know, And it's, it's almost, it's crazy because I feel like
25:50
he, he definitely like died and was reborn during life because
25:55
like we've watched him like do what he did when he was younger
25:58
and now be who he is now. And it's like tenfold.
26:02
And it really is like a the craziest redemption story, I
26:05
think, you know, and a good lesson for all cooks and chefs
26:09
and anybody out there, especially the ones that are
26:11
getting cancelled. Like it's only a time and a
26:13
place. You give enough time to anything
26:16
and and like, you can solve it. You can rush to it, you know.
26:19
You know, you bring up an interesting point.
26:22
You know, I want to finish my thought on on Tyson and and
26:26
chefs because what a lot of people don't realize is great
26:29
chefs sometimes get past their prime too. 100.
26:32
They they get past their prime and they have to pass the torch
26:34
on to the chef de cuisine or whatever.
26:36
And you and they might have a lot of restaurants, but I don't
26:38
think they're the driving force behind the culinary anymore.
26:41
You know, it goes down to the chef de cuisine or the person
26:43
that's running the restaurant. The chef is just out there
26:46
making appearances, kissing babies, making sure that they're
26:49
opening other spots, other spots and and they're creating a
26:51
succession plan for the people on the team.
26:54
But are they driving the latest trend?
26:57
You know, are they making all the food purple?
26:59
No, no, they're hell no. There, there, there.
27:02
There's someone else behind the scenes, right?
27:05
And I think the Tyson, Jake Paul fight, that's a good allegory
27:10
for the culinary world too, right?
27:11
Right. Like sometimes you think you
27:13
still got it, but like, right young guys got.
27:16
It that's a that's a actually a good allegory that you brought
27:19
up because it's like it's like every chef and sous chef
27:22
relationship. It's like the, you know, when
27:25
you, especially when old chefs get behind the line and you kind
27:27
of just got to stand back and you're like the cooks are
27:30
looking at you like that's not what he told us to do.
27:33
You know what I mean? Right, but you're.
27:34
Looking at him like they never put tongs in a pan.
27:37
Yeah, You know, it'll like, it's like putting the pan on the
27:39
cutting board and doing shit. And that's the thing that, you
27:42
know, I actually had that moment happened to me at Meadowood
27:45
where there was things that I was taught are like sacred.
27:49
You do not do. What what was like the five most
27:52
sacred things that you could not do at medal with And then and
27:55
then we'll get back to this word.
27:56
I'm just curious. For sure.
27:58
I mean it's just like this is how we fold the towels like with
28:02
the with the stripe out. OK, so Stripe wasn't?
28:04
Yeah, the three by the stripe out.
28:05
No, it was it was, I think it was just like the four and then
28:10
you just bring it over once. So it's like Stripe always up.
28:13
Exactly Stripe always up kind of thing.
28:15
I remember like we had a little weird vibe thing happened when
28:20
another chef showed up and he had he liked his towels a
28:23
certain way. So he like wouldn't use the
28:25
towels when I'd bring them to him.
28:27
He would like refold them all. And I'm like, is that really
28:29
necessary? But because of the caliber of
28:32
chef that this was, I was like, maybe you know, something I
28:34
fucking don't, you know. So the towels, the like the way
28:39
you worked, right? There was no like lackadaisical
28:42
working. I remember like if we were
28:43
having too good of a time and like laughing, they'd be like,
28:46
why are you having such a good time?
28:47
You're supposed to talk at eight.
28:49
Yeah, you're supposed to focus. You know what I mean?
28:51
No fun. No one have fun, you know, you
28:53
know, we would find a way to to to do it.
28:55
And it it wasn't like that crazy where they're abusing you, but
28:58
that would be like, you know, if you're sitting there laughing at
29:02
something else, you're definitely not 100% focused on
29:06
your task is true, right? And so it wasn't the silent
29:12
kitchen. There was always music playing
29:14
from morning through service. What's this playing?
29:17
Dude, classic hip hop. New hip hop Who's metal?
29:22
Who's picking the music? Chef, Chef Cat, Chef John myself
29:27
after a while, yeah, like, I it was dope.
29:29
I would play Cannibal Corpse. I would clean the fucking death
29:32
metal Chef hated it. But like, I would be like, this
29:34
is so cool that like he lets me fucking play this music that no
29:38
one wants to listen to right in this kitchen while we while we
29:41
clean down, you know, made him clean fast.
29:44
Yeah. I equate the the restaurant at
29:47
Meadowood to like, we were the Golden State Warriors.
29:50
Yeah, it was like sports, you know, you, you train, you like,
29:55
would go home and sharpen your knife and, and do your prep list
29:58
and menus or whatever. And that was like training.
30:01
And then you would go and play the game, you know, game of
30:04
service. Exactly.
30:05
The game of service. What?
30:06
When you were cleaning, did you guys have like a method, like
30:09
only back and forth? Yeah, Ouija.
30:11
Like what was the? You know, I loved it because we
30:14
weren't about scratching the surface.
30:16
And up until then, I've always heard like, oh, you got to
30:19
scratch the surface. But then I spent so many hours
30:22
at the end of the night, like, oh, yeah, dude, like, look, it's
30:25
shiny. And then you come back and fuck
30:26
it up the next day, you know what I'm saying?
30:28
So I was happy that they weren't so caught up on that.
30:31
They were like, just clean it, motherfucker.
30:33
Like, does it need to, like, be the shiniest thing?
30:36
No, But we definitely had floors that you could eat off of in
30:39
that kitchen. Like, the drains were clean.
30:42
Like, I made sure, you know, we made sure that everything was,
30:45
like, spotless. And when we did the kitchen
30:47
tours, that'd be the first thing they say, are you guys actually
30:50
cooking anything in here? Because it was so fucking clean.
30:55
So we got off. So you were going to say a story
30:56
when you were in Meadowood, you saw something.
31:00
We're talking about chefs that. It's just chefs that have a
31:06
certain standard and are at a certain echelon.
31:11
It's like rock stars, like they're not going to play with
31:14
the just the guitar you give them.
31:15
They want a specific guitar. They want it tuned a specific
31:18
way. 12 days. That's where I, I learned that
31:21
like every chef comes with their specificity of what they need,
31:27
right? You know, and I thought that,
31:31
you know, you brought up Meadowood's like 5 things.
31:33
It was hospitality. It was like how we treated each
31:37
other mattered as much as we treated the food and the guests,
31:41
right? So if there was it was a hard
31:42
kitchen, but if there was quarrels, we would squash it.
31:46
And I know that there was a lot of places that didn't do that,
31:49
you know. But I think to define a three
31:52
star, obviously we know the food has to be on point, but I think
31:57
it's it's a succession of making everything feel important, like
32:02
everything. Do you think a three star?
32:06
How many is Daniel Home doing out at EMP?
32:08
How many courses? I don't know exactly, but I
32:11
he's. Not doing what he used to.
32:12
Gotta be. Fucking over 18 no.
32:14
I I I read. Is it 12?
32:16
No, I think he's doing like 5. What?
32:18
Yeah, I think. Let me.
32:21
Let me, yeah. Well, you got a computer.
32:22
Can you? Can you?
32:23
Google how, but I don't have Wi-Fi Chef see that's the
32:26
problem let me look it up. I don't know why they don't put
32:28
Wi-Fi on these computers. You know what I mean?
32:30
Like we're, you know, I'm going to use it for.
32:34
Nine to 10 courses, 5 course menu highlights The main dining
32:38
room tasting menu is 9 to 10 courses, 5 course menu.
32:41
So which one is it? So they have both?
32:44
Yeah, that bar seating. The dining room menu is 9 to 10
32:47
courses for 365. So you got to save a dollar a
32:53
year per per day for a year. They also I thought they had a 5
32:57
course. Right.
32:57
How much is their wine tasting? Their wine pairing?
33:00
What is the dress? 365 for how many courses?
33:04
9 menu Does the restaurant offer?
33:07
We offer three menus. OK.
33:11
So 11 Madison Park offers 3 menus. 3 menus, all of which are
33:14
100% plant based. OK, our main dining room tasting
33:18
menu is 9 to 10 courses for 365 per guest, traditionally lasting
33:23
2 1/2 to three hours, right? Featuring both plated and
33:27
communal dishes. The five course.
33:30
So there is a 5 course menu is 285 per guest, features
33:35
highlights from the full tasting menu lasting roughly 2 hours
33:40
really served in our lounge. We offer the bar tasting menus
33:44
for 225 per guest. So anyway, so you could get the
33:48
EMP 11 Madison Park 5 course or you get the 10 course.
33:53
But This is why I find it interesting.
33:55
Is like at one point through the world's best restaurant, right?
33:57
They're three stars, they're reinventing themselves and
34:02
they're saying you know what 5 courses is?
34:05
OK is enough. 5 for me. Well, we're going to dinner
34:09
tonight. Like for me, one course is
34:11
enough. I think I need that one.
34:13
I went when Rogelio was here. We went out to dinner and like
34:17
we're splitting food and after a while I'm like, I can't eat no
34:19
more, man. I don't eat that way.
34:20
I can't eat like that. I also don't want to spend three
34:24
to four hours in a restaurant anymore.
34:25
Yeah, I think 2 hours is Max. So now and again, this kind of
34:30
goes back to our Michelin conversation.
34:32
Times are changing. I think one of the biggest thing
34:34
that's changing is our attention span.
34:36
Our attention span to sit down and have a conversation with
34:39
someone for four hours is probably not there anymore.
34:42
Anthony Bourdain writes about this in his book where he talks
34:46
about, I think he talks about French Laundry and I can't
34:48
remember, maybe a Linea that it was too long. 100.
34:52
It's too long. You don't want, I don't want to
34:54
spend 4 hours having dinner, but I'll spend 2.
34:57
I'll spend 2 1/2. And you know what?
34:58
I'm probably OK with five. And I think about like a
35:02
restaurant like Noma, because they caught heat a while back
35:05
because they had all these unpaid stages.
35:07
You remember all the heat that they were catching.
35:09
And it's like, I'm sure Renee could have found he's a genius.
35:13
I'll call it like it is. He's a genius.
35:15
I'm sure if I could think of this, he could think of this.
35:19
You could probably do 8 courses, make them mind blowing and no
35:24
one's going to complain that actually I'm missing the last
35:27
four, right? This would have been better.
35:29
Like everything was amazing. But like far more.
35:32
Courses and and you would be #1 nobody ever says this like #40
35:36
right now. Right.
35:37
At this point, he could probably just do one big course and he
35:40
would, you know, he's already at the status where they can do
35:43
that. And so I think if someone wants
35:47
to, because this is the thing, like you're, you're saving up
35:49
for your anniversary, you go out to this dinner, you want to feel
35:52
good afterwards. Maybe you want some sexy time.
35:54
Yeah. Yeah.
35:55
But it's like, Nah, I'm going to be in the bathroom all night.
35:57
Sorry. I've heard that about not just
36:00
like it. It doesn't have to be a tasting
36:02
menu. Some restaurants just feed you
36:03
too much. Right, right.
36:05
Right. So at what point do you say, you
36:06
know what? There's a Thomas Keller in his
36:10
French Laundry cookbooks talks about diminishing returns,
36:13
right? That's why the courses are
36:14
small. But at what point?
36:16
There's also the diminishing returns of now you're feeding me
36:18
too much, right? And for everyone, it's a little
36:20
bit different. I can't eat that much.
36:21
Other people can maybe eat more, but I think it's about finding
36:24
that sweet pot, sweet spot. And so we're reading that EMP
36:27
thing. I think they figured out like
36:29
for the person that can eat 10 courses, we have the 10 course
36:33
for probably like 70%. I'd be curious to know what
36:37
they're doing. 70% of the people want the five course because
36:39
that's I only want to be in there for two hours.
36:41
Two hours is enough. I want to get back to my day,
36:45
right? And five courses is probably
36:47
enough. What do you think?
36:49
I think for me, it doesn't matter the number of courses, it
36:52
matters on the time. Like we were able to do 18
36:55
courses in an hour and a half at Meadowood.
36:57
Wow. That's because we we were.
36:59
What are they? Small bikes.
37:01
They are they're small plates, but by the time you eat 18,
37:04
you're fucking you're good, you know, and they're not so petite
37:07
like they're you know, and we always did a good job of like,
37:10
like we'd have NFL players come in.
37:12
So we already knew like, hey, we got at a four top of NFL
37:15
players. The big meat is going to be
37:16
bigger, right? You know, you know, pardon me
37:21
for saying this, but hey, we got a heavyset couple on Table 3.
37:25
Every every portion is bigger now, right, Instead of two
37:28
butterball potatoes are going to get three in the on the potato
37:30
dish or whatever it is because you want them to be full by the
37:34
end of it or at least buy a dessert at at least right and
37:39
full meaning satisfied. Not like, oh God, you know,
37:43
we're having to go puke and rally in the bathroom.
37:46
But I have been to places that do a courses and it's taken 3
37:51
hours. And I think that chefs nowadays,
37:55
like we need to redefine what Ala Manute means, right?
37:59
Because just because you feel good about cooking it at Ala
38:03
Manute doesn't mean the guest wants to wait 20 minutes between
38:07
courses to get that. So do you think right now as
38:12
we're, you know, as Michelin is evolving and now BBQ restaurants
38:15
are in the conversation and Taco shops and you know, ramen shops
38:19
or whatever, right is a, is there the potential to have a
38:24
three star that is doing 5 courses and you're out of there
38:29
in two hours? I think for sure because
38:33
anything is possible. Like you said, BBQ spots are now
38:36
on Michelin. I think I was telling you this
38:39
earlier though, I think the one star, it's not going to lose
38:43
value, but the two and three stars, it will raise the value
38:48
of the two and three star. And I think the one star is
38:50
going to become sort of the nod from Michelin.
38:56
And I think what's happening more and more now that they
38:58
opened in all these cities, They're not opening in the city
39:01
and being like 2-3 stars, you know, they're really coveting
39:05
those three stars, coveting those positions and making sure
39:08
that they they introduced trajectory.
39:11
And I think that's why Texas did all the one stars in the the
39:14
recommendation bib core mods that they did, because it sort
39:17
of gets gets these restaurants in the mix.
39:21
And then they kind of have to build a relationship with
39:24
Michelin, you know, because I know that Chef Costa would call
39:28
them regularly throughout the year.
39:31
And how am I doing, you know? Oh, yeah.
39:34
Like, these people are having conversations with the chefs at
39:36
these restaurants, not like, telling them what the rule book
39:40
is. But after six years of you
39:42
getting three stars, they know you, right?
39:44
You've done dinners for them. You know, the organization,
39:47
they're going to call and say, hey, Chris, like, you know, meal
39:51
was good. Like, whatever you're doing
39:53
good. I feel like they also let
39:55
restaurants know like you know, unless the deaf the decision is.
40:01
Decisive where they're like, we're taking away the star.
40:04
I feel like they kind of hint a little bit to them.
40:07
Now, I don't know this for sure, right?
40:10
But what I can tell you for sure is that there is a person right
40:13
now that used to be in Michelin who's out there consulting.
40:19
I've heard in selling secrets to these restaurants to get two and
40:23
three stars. I actually talked to someone
40:25
about that the other day. I say fuck all the fuck that.
40:30
Like you can't step out of this company and say this is how you
40:34
win a two and three star and charge money for it.
40:37
How much are you charging my friend?
40:39
You know, unless if that person hasn't gotten Michelin stars of
40:43
their own, they have no fucking business consulting to
40:46
restaurants on how they should get Michelin stars.
40:50
Well, it's the same thing that Forbes Travel Guide does, right?
40:52
So Forbes Travel Guide, you know, if you're a restaurant or
40:56
a hotel, you could pay for Forbes Travel Guide training.
40:58
They tell you exactly what they're going to look for.
41:01
So and they're going to charge you.
41:03
I don't know what they charge, but they're going to charge you
41:05
whatever they can. And they can say, OK, if you
41:07
want to get a five star restaurant or a four-star
41:09
restaurant and you know with Forbes, it's 5 or 4, nothing
41:12
else there. There is no three, right?
41:14
You either 5 or you're 4. It's like they're going to go
41:16
through and they're going to tell you every single thing that
41:19
you need to do, and they're going to outline it for you and
41:21
they're going to say it's very quantifiable.
41:23
There's some vagueness in there that'll it'll say like
41:26
exceptional food. What does that mean?
41:27
Well, yeah. And leave that up.
41:29
I've had exceptional McDonald's. Exceptionally presented, few
41:34
food, you know, meticulously plated, etcetera.
41:37
But everything else is like OK, the way that you're greeted, you
41:40
know, how long did it take for this?
41:41
How clean are the bathrooms? Like there's very specific
41:43
things. So I'm wondering if someone has
41:45
that ability with Michelin like Michelin should.
41:50
Like if I was advising Michelin, like Michelin, call me I'm call
41:54
me Michelin. I'm look right into the camera.
41:56
He's qualified. I will, I will ask my AI to give
42:01
you ideas and I'll sell them to you.
42:02
So. That ready to go?
42:04
But but if I was advising them, I would say, look, take everyone
42:08
wants a Michelin star Michelin, why don't you just teach people
42:10
how to get a Michelin? Like train people on the what
42:12
what you're looking for and sell it.
42:14
You're trying to make money anyway, but all these states are
42:16
paying you anyway. Here's another here's another
42:18
little. Here's an extra 200 KA year for
42:22
you, Michelin. Right, right.
42:23
I that's a controversial idea. I do like the on amenity of it,
42:28
like the not knowing. Yeah, You know, but for for a
42:32
person that just it's look, I've gone to restaurants and learned
42:36
their entire menu and recipes, Yeah, doesn't mean I'm going to
42:39
go to the next place. We like here's everything that
42:42
they ever did. You know, you kind of just go
42:46
there and forget everything you learned and learn a new thing,
42:49
you know, But I think anybody that's going around and trying
42:52
to share things in a secretive manner, like you said, they
42:55
should say, hey, this is how you get Michelin.
42:58
But you can't have one guy going rogue, you know, making an LLC
43:02
and then starting to charge $30,000 for a consultation.
43:06
You know, all these, all that person is doing is trying to eat
43:08
for free and create some sort of you know.
43:12
He's giving you the blueprint. Right, that's what I'm saying.
43:14
But it's, it's just kind of like disgusting to me, you know?
43:17
But couldn't you like, like in the world?
43:21
Let's just say Meadowood is not open anymore.
43:24
The hotel is, but the restaurant's not right?
43:26
And I'm not sure where everyone landed, but let's just say you
43:28
got the Psalm, you got the person that created the bar
43:31
program yourself, maybe one other person, and you started
43:35
consulting LLC And you say, hey, we can't guarantee we'll get you
43:39
a Michelin star, but we'll teach you how to create excellence.
43:42
We'll go in, I'll show you how to create a wine list.
43:45
I got that guy doing it. This person is going to show you
43:47
how to do the mix. This person is going to teach
43:49
your servers how to have some Polish at the table.
43:52
And I'm going to audit your kitchen and tell you everything
43:55
you need to do. We're going to tell you what
43:56
knives to buy. We're going to tell you what
43:57
cutting boards to buy. We're going to tell you what
43:59
cutlery to buy, what stem. We're going to make
44:01
recommendations like good, better, best, all of that.
44:06
We got the one star package with the two star pack.
44:09
Only 100 grand for the three star pack, right?
44:12
So I mean, look, people are going to figure out a way to
44:15
make money and, and the challenge is, and I'm in this
44:19
business of podcasting like you, the challenge is when you've
44:23
dedicated your entire life to something, my case, being a
44:27
chef, this guy's case been working for Michelin.
44:30
It's like, and that's all you know, but now you got to
44:32
monetize your knowledge somehow. So this for me, it's like, OK,
44:35
how do, how do I monetize my knowledge of a chef's PSA?
44:37
Maybe this guy came up with the same like how do I like the only
44:41
thing I know? That that's the only skill he
44:43
has. You are right, because where do
44:44
you go if you work 30 years as a Michelin inspector?
44:47
Let you know what are you going to do?
44:49
What are you going? To do all I know I have.
44:52
You have to make a blog like that's it.
44:54
Like you got to be a blog guy. You know, actually just saw, I
44:58
saw Michael Bauer the other day and I'm hoping, hoping I can get
45:02
him on the podcast. But it's so funny that these
45:06
guys, these critics, they hold so much power, you know, and I
45:09
think that the only reason that's happening is because we
45:12
give them the power. They do.
45:13
We gave the journalists the power and we gave, you know,
45:17
these award places the power. And it's like if somebody talks
45:21
shit about you on Yelp, what's your opinion on this?
45:25
Do you think you should respond? I'd like the ability to OK, I'd
45:29
like, I don't know if like I have a thing on Chef's PSA
45:33
because you know, I get haters. I'm sure you get you get shit
45:36
talkers as well. I have.
45:38
I have a rule in life that I live by.
45:40
I don't reward bad behavior with my attention and I don't argue
45:43
with idiots. Right.
45:45
Right. So I'd rather just block you.
45:46
Like if you're an idiot, I'm just going to block you.
45:48
If you're, if you're saying some something stupid, like I'm not
45:51
even going to respond to your comment because it's maybe it's
45:54
fucking stupid, right? I don't that's my attention.
45:57
I'm not rewarding you with my attention if it's if it's
46:00
stupid. So back to the Yelp comment.
46:01
If it's a stupid comment, do I want to reward it with my
46:04
attention? I don't know.
46:05
But I'll tell you what there is a it's going to look a certain
46:10
way because they're going to come in and say I ate there and
46:13
the steak was shit. And then you're going to go on
46:15
there and say, well, what you didn't know is that you ordered
46:18
it well done. And I told my server I didn't
46:21
want to cook it well done. And you you're complaining that
46:24
it's dry now because you ordered it with the fault should be
46:26
yours. It's like, OK, maybe that is
46:28
true. Maybe that's what really
46:30
happened, but everyone that's reading is saying that guy's an
46:32
asset. Exactly.
46:33
Yeah. So like, what's the up to ask?
46:35
Something to the stakes, you know?
46:36
What's the upside to responding to the comments right?
46:39
Right. So I don't know, I don't think
46:41
there. Is an upside, to be honest, I
46:43
think let the Yelpers be the Yelpers.
46:45
If you use Yelp as a travel guide, that already tells me a
46:49
lot about you. You know what I mean?
46:51
When there's the Eater maps and the fucking and the Michelin
46:55
Guide and you choose Yelp, you know, that's the type of person
46:59
that I don't know, I don't know I want to associate with, you
47:01
know what I mean? They should honestly make you,
47:06
you know, like say I use Yelp just so just so we know who you
47:11
are. I'm a powerful.
47:12
Exactly. I'm a powerful.
47:14
Did you watch the South Yelper? You remember the South Park
47:16
episode about Yelp? Oh my God, you gotta watch that.
47:19
It's like it was, I don't remember what it was, but it was
47:22
like one of the funniest episodes ever where South Park
47:26
made fun of Yelp. That's great.
47:28
Like if I don't know if you like South Park, but if you go back
47:30
and watch that one, it's worth going.
47:32
It's one of the few episodes that's worth going back for.
47:35
That's amazing. I do think, though, that it's
47:37
necessary because movies need critics.
47:40
You need, you need to have somebody that says this sucks,
47:43
even if it's like The Godfather. You know what I'm saying?
47:47
I'm interested in that. I want to know why.
47:51
It's why something so great and something that I think is so
47:54
great sucks to someone else, right?
47:56
That's very interesting, right? Because that's what makes us
48:00
different. It's all a little what makes you
48:01
tick, right? You know so.
48:04
When I'm looking at feedback for a restaurant that I'm running or
48:08
I'm consulting, I'll look at the the comments is like you have to
48:11
be able to distill like this is actually good feedback, like
48:14
they're saying like this is good.
48:15
This is gold, right? What they they wrote a valuable
48:17
criticism. They're right, but there's other
48:20
times. Like, you know what?
48:20
I just don't like Duck. Yeah, OK.
48:22
We'll keep trucking. I look for consistency.
48:25
Yeah. You know, if four people write
48:28
the same review about the puree being too salty, then then maybe
48:32
we got to change the recipe. Maybe as it sits in the pot,
48:35
it's reducing a little bit too much and getting too salty.
48:38
Right. All of these things are valid.
48:41
But I do think a lot of Yelpers is go on there to like just talk
48:45
shit and hate and, you know, have their sense of I'm a
48:48
restaurant critic, but also chefs like don't be so damn
48:52
sensitive, bro. I should be able to go to a
48:54
friend's restaurant and if I don't like it, I should be able
48:58
to trash that shit and be like, yo, bro, what the fuck.
49:01
Like I came here. I have high expect that we work.
49:03
We used to work together. I know you can cook.
49:06
What happened? You know, because it's, it's
49:08
just funny. It's like, I'm sure that day the
49:10
meat didn't come in till late, so we didn't get to cook it
49:13
enough. And then there wasn't quite
49:14
brazy, but we didn't have any more.
49:16
We couldn't 86 so we couldn't print new menus.
49:18
And that's why you ended up with that shitty cut of meat.
49:21
You know, to me, that's just interesting.
49:23
And it's it's we need to be able to poke fun at ourselves.
49:27
But we've made it so severe that now people read and it's people
49:31
too, right? They'll read a better review and
49:32
they won't try it. Like you write a bad review
49:35
about somewhere I need to. I need to see what you're
49:39
talking about. You know, because I've been to
49:42
some restaurants that people say are amazing and they fucking
49:45
suck. Do do you think you're still
49:48
staying on the subject of food critics?
49:50
Do you think, because you and I are both in the podcast world,
49:54
do you think food critics and food writers?
49:57
Because not, not all of them are critics.
49:58
Some of them are just writers. Do you think they still hold the
50:01
same weight that they did? Or do you think that they're
50:04
missing the boat by not having the Eater podcast?
50:08
Mm Hmm. I think.
50:09
Not giving eater ideas by. The way I think if anything,
50:12
Eater is probably working on a podcast.
50:14
There's no way they're not blame not but common.
50:17
Yeah. All that will come pretty soon,
50:20
right? And it's going to be interesting
50:21
to see who do they pick to be that person?
50:25
Is it going to be a journalist who's never done shit in the
50:27
kitchen and doesn't fucking know?
50:29
Or is it going to be these chefs that these people write about
50:33
the fact that we have to work so hard, right?
50:37
Why don't you let's let's take like, you know, Chef Roland from
50:43
San Francisco and let's give him an analyst position.
50:47
Let's have our Charles Barkley's and our shacks and our, you
50:51
know, when Thomas Keller can't move anymore, I want to know
50:54
what he thinks about the up and coming talent.
50:57
But we don't we haven't set ourselves up with that
51:00
trajectory yet because honestly, we don't work together well.
51:04
You know, the whole ecosystem of like the NBA, the Stephen A
51:09
Smith talk so much shit about all the teams, yet he's on ESPN.
51:16
And it's like, it's all valid, right?
51:20
In in the world, everything's fair, right?
51:23
And I think we need to get back to a place where we're not
51:25
killing each other over opinions and not talking shit behind each
51:28
other's back. Let's have the conversation.
51:30
So do you think, you know, sticking on the subject of of
51:33
critics and let's just, you know, fill in the blank magazine
51:36
or eater or publication, you're going to go and start your own
51:40
podcasts, your ex publication, you're going to start ex podcast
51:45
and you're going to have a journalist.
51:46
Now start hosting the podcast. There's some problems with that
51:50
because just because you're a good journalist doesn't mean you
51:52
could translate that now to conversation, right?
51:54
So it's a different skill. It's a completely different
51:57
skill talking on a mic versus, you know, writing.
52:01
But then who are the guests? Are you interviewing other
52:04
people? Is this about your opinions on
52:07
the restaurant scene and you're going to say this restaurant or
52:10
is this your opinion on the industry?
52:11
Like because that changes who you're bringing on the podcast.
52:14
You're going to bring on an influencer who's eating at all
52:16
the restaurants versus you're bringing on a chef to highlight
52:19
them, right? So it changes the dynamic.
52:22
And then if you're a chef, and we were talking about this
52:26
earlier, I've had a lot of chefs hit me up and say, I want to
52:28
jump on the show because my chefs in the kitchen love your
52:33
show. And so like, I want to be on it,
52:35
right? And I think that's cool because
52:37
I don't think they're calling up, you know, a food magazine
52:40
and saying, Hey, all my cooks read your magazine or that I
52:44
want to jump on your kind of being featured in your magazine,
52:47
right? So it's it's a different it's
52:49
different. My friend Diego from Mischley,
52:52
he always says the reason people like our podcast, Yeah, is
52:57
because you're not civilians. Yeah, you've been through it.
53:00
You know it. You're you're not trying to tear
53:02
us down. You're actually trying to build
53:04
up the industry and and you know what you're talking about.
53:06
You're not coming at it from I'm a one year line cook or I'm an
53:11
outsider trying to tell you guys how to fix it, but I've never
53:14
done. Exactly.
53:15
And it's funny, like, you know, I've been cooking since I was
53:17
14, six years in Michelin, 2 years as, you know, executive
53:23
chef of that group. And then now I've been executive
53:25
chef and private chef for the last four or five years of my
53:28
life. And I still am like, I'd, I
53:32
should not have an opinion. I'm not good enough.
53:34
Like legitimately tell this to myself.
53:36
And then I'm like, shut the fuck up.
53:38
Like, yeah, you can. Because there's people out there
53:41
with way less experience that have more of a weighted opinion
53:46
in our food world than most people, right?
53:50
Like Thomas Keller for, for example.
53:52
He doesn't ever make an opinion about restaurants or food or any
53:57
of that really. You know what I mean?
53:59
He's like, he doesn't say anything because he has the
54:02
power. If he says yo, this restaurant
54:04
sucks, that restaurant's going to close.
54:06
Yeah, every he he has a loaded weapon.
54:08
Yeah, exactly. And he and he doesn't use it
54:10
right. There's other chefs that wish
54:12
they could, but you're just never there.
54:15
But you're looking at the two that will be able to.
54:17
So that's it, right? You know, right?
54:19
One of the things that when I started the podcast, one of the
54:22
things was like, you know, I don't have like I'm not going to
54:26
get fired, but it's No Fear. I can say whatever I want.
54:32
My boss isn't going to come up to me and say, Hey, you
54:35
shouldn't have said I have to deal with it because the
54:37
person's going to say it to me is me, right, right.
54:39
I'm a look at me like I was stupid.
54:40
I shouldn't have said that. Like I'm going to be my own
54:42
hardest critic, but I don't have anyone over me saying if I say
54:45
something stupid, the empire crumbles.
54:47
That's just if I say something stupid, I have to deal with I
54:51
have to deal with the consequences.
54:52
So it's much different for me that is full time chefs, PSA
54:58
versus a chef that like, hey, I can't really, I can't really
55:02
talk shit because there's a whole brand behind me and
55:04
there's mouths to feed. Right, exactly.
55:06
And that's, that's sort of a responsible thing for him to do.
55:11
You know, that's why I remain as independent as I am, because I
55:15
don't want somebody telling me what the fuck I can say.
55:18
Is that is that more important? I think it's more it's more
55:22
important to have the freedom. For me, you've been on both
55:24
sides. Yeah.
55:25
So you've been you've been the employee and now you also have,
55:28
you know, you're Sucio talk is entrepreneurial, right?
55:33
Do you value your freedom? And if someone like what's the
55:39
Unicorn that would say, OK, Sucio talk's done, no more.
55:42
Nothing, nothing, nothing. I would not if Thomas Keller
55:45
himself walked into this room and said full budget, whatever
55:50
you want, wherever you want, the whole world, open your dream
55:53
restaurant, let's go do it. I would not quit Sucio talk.
55:56
I would be like, I'm sorry, that's great and all, and that
55:59
would help me achieve the status that I want to achieve.
56:03
But you know what? I need to be able to say what I
56:06
want when I want. And I need to be able to have
56:08
open conversations and open-ended ones at that, right?
56:12
Because in 10 years, my opinions might change about the shit I
56:15
said today, you know? And again, it's like the review
56:18
is so finite that there's no conversation.
56:21
The podcast makes room for conversation.
56:24
But I told myself when I started this and I made it real for
56:28
myself, like I am not going to stop doing this until I'm dead.
56:32
And there's been a few times where people have talked shit
56:35
about other people on the podcast where I've gotten DMS of
56:38
like, hey, what the fuck you, you know?
56:42
But I honestly, I don't care because it's that person's
56:45
truth, right? There's a lot of assholes out
56:47
there. There's a lot of people that I'm
56:48
going to have on the show that people aren't going to like or
56:51
agree with. You bring up something
56:53
interesting because you say there's a lot of assholes out
56:56
there and you're going to talk to them.
56:57
Fuck yeah, I'm going to talk to them.
56:59
Do you think so? You look at someone that's a,
57:02
that's a news reporter on a major network, They'll go talk
57:06
to both political candidates, whether people like them or not.
57:09
They'll go talk to government leaders in other countries, even
57:13
though they might not be friendly to the United States.
57:17
And no one ever says how dare you talk to this person, right?
57:21
They, they look at it as like, Hey, we've gone in Geraldo
57:26
Rivera used to go into prison and and interview sort of like,
57:30
or they're interviewing the Iceman or a serial killer is
57:33
like, well, just because you're interviewing someone doesn't
57:35
necessarily mean that you are that person, right?
57:37
But you're giving them an opportunity to get, you know,
57:40
there's a story here and we can learn from stories, right?
57:43
And so I, I like your stance on that because I agree with it.
57:46
Like it doesn't matter if people like this chef or if the chef
57:49
has done good things or bad things or like, but if, if we
57:53
could, if we could send people into interview Jeffrey Dahmer,
57:56
we should be able to interview a chef.
57:59
Here you bro, like, look, I won't like, I'm not going to
58:02
interview Mario Batali, you know what I'm saying?
58:04
Like there's a line, right? And if you cross that line with
58:07
me, like especially with women and, and with people that are
58:11
just like powerless, I'm not, I'm not good with that, you
58:14
know, but. But could would you interview
58:17
him to grill him? No.
58:18
Because not even that. No, because it's not worth it's
58:22
not worth anything. Again, there's a line, right?
58:24
Yeah, Once you cross it, I'm I'm good with you.
58:26
Like, I get it. You've made contributions and I
58:30
can't take that away from you. And I'm not trying to, but I
58:33
also Ant am not trying to like shine a light on it either
58:36
because you got caught, right? There's probably other shit that
58:41
you didn't get caught about that's even worse than and I
58:44
just like I don't want to distance my I don't want to put
58:47
myself in the same room with that energy and and have that
58:51
person, Omar Batali be like, see, I told you I wasn't that
58:54
bad. Like I'm good.
58:56
I don't want to give anybody an excuse or to like for that.
59:00
I don't know the intricacies of it.
59:02
I don't know, but I do know that he is convicted, right.
59:06
Once that happens, I'm good. Yeah, it's not even.
59:09
Here. So right, the allegedly shit,
59:11
that's when I'll take a chance, yeah, on somebody that allegedly
59:14
did some shit, you know? But once you're fucking tried
59:19
and proven by the government, I'm good bro.
59:22
You know, let me ask you this. We're still on the subject of
59:25
podcasting. It's a unique world and I know
59:30
right now there's a lot. I mean, we're in it.
59:32
So I probably see a lot of Chef, a lot more Chef podcast than
59:34
people even realize. Yeah, a lot of people.
59:37
Don't even know know that these exist, but it's like I'm in the
59:41
world. So when a new one pops up, I
59:42
feel like it's my responsibility to listen to it.
59:44
Like I'll listen to an episode to see how it is like see if I
59:49
can learn something from them. Has your life changed since
59:53
Sousio Talk? Like what?
59:54
What is different from, you know, Sucio, BC and Sucio?
1:00:00
AD. Or CE, right?
1:00:02
I think BCI was timid, not in the kitchen, but like to say
1:00:09
what I thought and they kind of took it away from me.
1:00:15
The, the, the reason that I started the podcast is to
1:00:20
inspire people through action, like going to these places and
1:00:24
finding the chef and talking to them or figuring out a way to
1:00:31
get in a room with someone that you really admire and really
1:00:34
look up to, to learn from them. And, and not like, hey, you want
1:00:38
to be friends because like, that's weird.
1:00:40
You know, don't cold call people and say you want to be friends.
1:00:43
You can do that, I guess, right. But like, that's a little weird.
1:00:47
So that those are all the reasons that I started and I've
1:00:50
always wanted to be an entertainer.
1:00:51
I've always wanted to be a comedian.
1:00:53
Like I'm very loud and have a good personality and that shine
1:00:57
through a lot of the three star because I you know, you do a lot
1:01:02
of show. It's a lot of theater.
1:01:03
Sure, right. Which people like that's they're
1:01:06
paying $50.00 of that bill. Is that like 200 covers the
1:01:09
food, $50 covers the the dishes and the and the show, right.
1:01:16
So in terms of in terms of podcasts, like, yeah, there is a
1:01:20
lot of new podcasts popping up and I feel like there's 8
1:01:23
billion people in the world. Like we're fine.
1:01:25
I only need a million. I'm good.
1:01:27
It's not for everybody either. That's the thing.
1:01:29
Like I don't do my podcasts for everyone.
1:01:33
If somebody has a problem with what's going on in the podcast,
1:01:37
I have a phone number 510-463-1145.
1:01:41
Have you seen Fancy Chef? Well I hope you've enjoyed this
1:01:44
episode so far. If you want to listen to the
1:01:46
second part, go to Socio Talks. He's got Part 2.
1:01:49
Or become a premium subscriber on Sub Stack or Spotify and you
1:01:53
listen to Part 2 on Chef's PSA. If you was for the show, you
1:01:56
know what to do. Make sure you leave five stars,
1:01:58
nothing less than five stars. Go to chefspsa.com.
1:02:01
You get everything, books, merch and continue to support what
1:02:04
we're doing here. Go subscribe to Sucio Talk.
1:02:07
Leave them five stars too. We'll see you next week.
1:02:10
Hit the porno music no? Small Drake in the kitchen.
1:02:13
Mix it. Drop the chef knowledge.
1:02:15
No fiction. Stirring up the beats.
1:02:17
Heat enough the session. Listen.
1:02:19
Close classes in session.