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Maverick or Iceman: Who Do You Want on Your Team? · Commander's Intent

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Whether it's a business or life, it can cost you everything.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: Commander's Intent will keep and inspire you how to lead with clarity, courage, and purpose.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: So here's your host, retired Air Force Colonel, fighter pilot, and your leadership mentor, Derek Oak.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of Commander's Intent.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm here with my co-host Rob Powell.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: He's got a topic that I'm going to let him introduce that has been a subject of debate as long as I've been in the military.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: And really, since I was in college when I first saw the movie, The Original Top Gun, what kind of person do I want on my team?
0:43
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to turn it over to Rob to kind of introduce the topic.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Derek.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is one that's near and dear to my heart.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: It actually comes out of a conversation I had with my cousin in college.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: Because, like both of us, we grew up in the era.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I was a young man looking forward to going to the Air Force and flying jets and fly fight win.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: And Top Gun comes out.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: And we love the movie Top Gun.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, the awesome action flying sequences.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: Never mind.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: It was the Navy.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: It's fine.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Still flying jets.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: And the thing that I took away from this was, you know, Maverick was the cool guy.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: He's the hero.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: And I'll never forget, you know, my cousin and I were in college.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm at the Air Force Academy.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: He's at BYU.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: And we'd get into this discussion and argument, disagreement over who we'd rather have on our team.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Whether we rather have Maverick or we'd rather have Iceman.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, Maverick is the guy that's out there making the moves and he's the hero of the movie, but he's very rebellious, goes against all convention, is very hard to predict.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: And as my cousin put it, he says, you know, Iceman gets it right.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: In the movie, he says, Maverick, you're dangerous.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: And I kind of argued against that as a young cadet.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: Later on in my career, I thought about that more and more.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And uh I've gone back and forth on this a few times.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: So, Derek, let me ask you this.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, who would you rather have on your team?
1:54
SPEAKER_02: You were a fighter, uh commander.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: Do you want Maverick?
1:57
SPEAKER_02: Do you want Iceman?
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Do you want something else?
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the short answer is yes.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: I'd like them both and for different reasons.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like going golfing with a full set of clubs.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I want that full set of clubs, a full set of tools.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: I think one thing to note is that both Iceman and Maverick were supremely capable.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: They were highly intelligent and they were technically very good at their job.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: They're very good at their job with a different approach.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: But I really think it depends on what I need them for what I'm trying to do.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: It's easy.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you, it's easy to be a commander when you have a bunch of Icemans.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: When you have a bunch of guys who are just going to do the job, they're going to be very good at it, they're going to show up on time, they're going to do what you ask them to do.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: They understand the rules, they understand the lay of the land, and they're not going to be a problem for you.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to have to fight with them to follow the rules.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to have to explain the rules to them because they live the rules.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: It's part of their culture.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: On the flip side, you have that Maverick mentality.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they see the rules as obstacles.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's where a lot of commanders kind of suck air through their teeth and get really nervous.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: But they they really don't see the world from the perspective of the confines and the rules.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: They're actually looking two, three plays ahead.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: They're looking past that and they're looking at the entire picture to where the rules are just maybe necessary evils or maybe just kind of nuisances that are getting in the way of them visualizing what really needs to be done.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, break a logjam, I want something that's going to be more of a free thinker, more innovative.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's where you're going to get somebody like a maverick.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I dude, I totally agree.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: It's funny because I think that my thoughts on this changed depending on where I was in my career.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: And I've mentioned this before when we had General Slife on here with wrist, and I'm not exactly proud of my thoughts on this, but I used to have this little mantra that would go through my head, and it was Air Force rules are made for the lowest common denominator.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: I am not the lowest common denominator.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, Air Force rules were not made for me.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: And so I kind of have this kind of maverick attitude in that, hey, rules are great, but they're suggestions, and I should be able to think my way past them.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Now, flash forward a few years, and now I'm a commander running a squadron full of lieutenants and young guys I'm trying to teach.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, goodness gracious, just want you to follow the rules.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: I just want you to do what I'm asking you to do, mostly because I didn't want to create a lot of extra problems.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: And so I started to realize the value of the team members that did just that.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: We're very competent at their jobs, but were able to do their jobs every single day.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have to worry about them collaring outside the lines or or raising questions about things that I really didn't think were relevant.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: Then it flashed forward a few more years, and now here I am as a retired guy thinking about it again, and I come to the same conclusion you have.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: You need a solid mix on your team, and I would say probably an 80-20 or an 85-15.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: I want 80 to 85% of my force to be competent professionals who follow the rules, follow standard procedures, and work the status quo.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: And I need 15 to 20% of my force to be those agile, innovative thinkers who are able to see things before they happen and to start to change the way we look at things or the way we approach things.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: And so, as everything else that we talk about on this show, it seems the it depends and I want a little bit of both answer seems to be the right one here.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: I like that approach.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: As you're sitting there talking, I was thinking about when do I want that maverick?
5:33
SPEAKER_00: When do I want that that iceman?
5:36
SPEAKER_00: How do I have a mix?
5:37
SPEAKER_00: How do I because I can't treat people differently or or can I treat people differently?
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Can I approach each individual a little bit differently?
5:46
SPEAKER_00: And like I said at the very beginning, that creates a leadership, not a headache, but a significant leadership challenge when you're looking at every single individual a little bit differently and you're handling every single individual a little bit differently.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: So how do I have that mix?
6:00
SPEAKER_00: How would you run an organization where I want the mavericks, but I also want the stability of the Iceman?
6:05
SPEAKER_02: Wow, man, you've you have brought up the crux of the issue because I think it's kind of a threefold problem, and the problem is villain.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: How do you identify that the guy's a maverick in a good way?
6:16
SPEAKER_02: Because I also have mavericks on my team that were just mavericks because they were, for lack of a better word, too clueless to realize that they didn't know what was going on.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: So I wouldn't label that guy a maverick.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: I'd just label that guy a headache and a problem child.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: But how do you identify the difference between a problem child and a maverick, somebody who truly can drive your organization forward and get you to new places?
6:37
SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: Number two, how do you deal with them?
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Because what do I want the maverick being the guy that I put up in front of the squadron and saying I want everybody to be like you?
6:46
SPEAKER_02: Because the reality is I don't.
6:48
SPEAKER_02: But I don't want to crush their dreams or crush their ingenuity, their innovativeness.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: But I can't be seen, like you said, to be playing favorites amongst the team.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: And then lastly, how do you propel these guys forward or keep them around long enough for them to have utility?
7:05
SPEAKER_02: I think you have to solve those three problems.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: And gosh, I wish I had a better answer.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, the question that you asked is really how do you manage as a leader, as a commander?
7:13
SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on what you're facing as an organization or as a unit.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: If you're in times that that demand a lot of agility and innovativeness, I think that's when you see those mavericks become the leaders of teams.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: When it's more solid and placid, I would say, that it's more day-to-day operations, then the mavericks probably aren't your leaders, but that's where your challenge is how do you shepherd them through those times so that they're still around when you need them.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great way to look at it.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: How do you manage in those different times?
7:42
SPEAKER_00: What do you do with your mavericks?
7:43
SPEAKER_00: What you do with your what you do with your iceberg, I think, is actually it's a pretty easy.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: You tell them to follow Maverick, or you tell them to follow to do what they're good at, which is being precise and excellent in the task in front of them.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: A simple example, and I'm not trying to pat myself on the back like I was this great aviator or maverick, but something that that's made me think a lot about how you see things and how you solve problems goes back to my pilot training days, and I was on a navigation ride.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm flying from Abilene, Texas, down to San Angelo, Texas.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: They have an ILS there, but they it's a non-radar environment.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: So you're flying with air traffic control, the center frequency.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm what I'm flying to intercept an ILS.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: It's and it's there's not a full procedure.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: I have to get myself to the ILS.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: And as I'm inbound, and and ILS is a as you know, it's a very narrow approach, and you can literally fly parallel to the the approach, and your aircraft systems will never see it.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: You'll miss it.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: And so they I'm on a vector, flying to San Angelo, and they clear me the ILS into San Angelo.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, how am I gonna be sure that I intercept the IL?
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Because they they weren't vectoring me to the ILS, they were vectoring me to San Angelo, and they're kind of effectively washing their hands of me and telling me to fly that.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I thought, well, how am I gonna intercept the ILS?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So I checked about 10 degrees to the right.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't flying exactly his heading, but I checked about 10 degrees to the right.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And my instructor's like, whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And I said, I've got to intercept final.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: I've got to make sure I intercept final.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: So initially he he was gonna stop me.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: So I checked about 10 degrees away, and then I checked back to the left so that I could intercept the final.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: So I would my my aircraft would not run exactly perpendicular, but I would run, I would catch the final approach course and be able to find the approach in.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: And he said, I've never seen anybody do that.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: But for me, I mean I understood the rules kind of as a new pilot, but I didn't want to miss final approach.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, well, how do I ensure that I'm not gonna miss final approach?
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I need to check away and then turn back into it so that I can intercept final approach and give myself, make sure that I'm not flying a parallel course all the way down and never actually getting on the course.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the ways I see a maverick, is you have your rules of following the vector, following the line that you were given.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: But then you also have my job, my requirement, what is asked to me really is not to follow the line, it's to intercept final.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: It's to find the final approach course and then fly it in once I get that.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And so I did that.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Like I said initially, my instructor was about to read me and it was asking me what I was doing, but then he let me go.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: And afterwards, he said that was a great way to find final because it ensured that I found it.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: It ensured that I actually had an intercept heading and the system, the aircraft system, would talk to that radial frequency and allow me to fly down on final.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: That's really what you want from that maverick.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: You don't want him to go cowboy.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Going cowboy would have been, I don't care.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I'll just sort it out.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to intercept final because I'm a good enough pilot where I know where San Angelo is and I'll just make it there.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: The Maverick's gonna look at the tools that they have, look at the environment, and go, the requirement is to intercept final.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: The requirement is to get myself, no kidding, to this point, and I'm gonna use the tools that I have available in order to get me.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: At the time, I didn't think about it as being maverick.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: It was, I need to solve a problem.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: The ATC air traffic controllers are not helping me solve that problem, so I have to get to solving that problem.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you a question.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: In times of peace, in times when you don't need innovation, which I actually think are pretty rare.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: You always need innovation, you always need maverick inputs.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: What do you do with a maverick?
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Where do you put a maverick in your organization?
11:18
SPEAKER_00: And how do you keep them engaged so they don't say, I'm out of here?
11:21
SPEAKER_02: So I I would say there's two answers to that.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: The first is when I was a young captain, I got put in a unit.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: I got selected to go to a unit that I would say was probably the opposite of what I just described.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: It was 80% Mavericks and 20% not, you know, Iceman.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: We were all in the same unit, but we were a unit that was charged with doing new and different things in ways that nobody had done it before.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: It was really the perfect place to put us because we all kind of bounced off each other and reinforced each other's, you know, ideas and proclivities for ingenuity and innovation, but we were such a small unit that we weren't gonna like poison the larger ASOC organization.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: We were kind of put into our own little melting pot.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: And from that unit, there were a huge number of innovations that came out of that we saw come to play in the war on terror over the next 20 years.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: A lot of my friends and colleagues went on to command multiple units because they had gained some of that maverick kind of energy at that time in their career.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: So that's one way.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: You kind of maybe put them out to pasture, put them in some place that they can do their own thing without infecting the rest of the herd.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Number two, I would say, is you've got to get them in a position, even in your if you keep them with the rest of the herd, you've got to put them in a place where their abilities are best used.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: So you put them, we created later on when I was a group commander, my predecessor had created a, for lack of a better word, almost like a Skunkworks inside of our own group, where we put the people who have the most innovative and aggressive minds and let them think of, hey, where do we need to go next?
13:01
SPEAKER_02: And that actually kind of reminds me of when I was a group commander at one of our commanders' conferences, and I can't remember the guy's name, but he was an Apple employee, like senior legal kind of guy in Apple.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: But he was also a Navy reservist.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: He came in and gave us this great talk about how Apple, in their quest for the next innovative ideas, they always had some products and products that are being developed that were way out in the future that were nowhere close to being ready for consumers.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: He said the iPad lived in that team for like 10 to 15 years until they could get that idea to a place where it could become commercialized and sold as the iPad we know today.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: And so I think those are two ways that you can manage your Mavericks in a peacetime environment that are helpful for them as individuals, but helpful for the team because it allows them to continue to innovate, but not be squashed by by the stats quo.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great example or a great idea.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Just finding the right place for them, finding a place where they don't feel stagnant, they don't feel handcuffed, they don't feel like they're being stifled.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: What happens when you stifle a maverick?
14:12
SPEAKER_00: When you handcuff them, they start breaking things and they start causing dissension in your organization.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's not what you want.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to talk about a couple of examples of mavericks.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, George Patton, he I just read a thing on him how at 50 in 1935, he's like, I may as well just die.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: There's no reason for me to get up.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: The army had gone back to horses instead of tanks, even though he had had all these innovations in World War I.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: They'd gone back to horses, and yet he's watching Germany arm up with armor.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: He's watching Japan arm up with to a lesser extent with armor.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: And here the United States Army has no kidding cavalry with horses.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what have what have we done?
14:51
SPEAKER_00: I missed my point, I missed my calling, I missed my opportunity to transform the army.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Little did he know that we were gonna end up in a world war, and luckily he stuck around.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And he was a tough one to manage, even as a general officer, even when he was doing exactly what he wanted, he was a tough one to manage because he was a loose cannon on a lot of when and how he would open his mouth.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: But he was looking at the next threat.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: He was looking beyond, he was able to be so effective on the battlefield because he wasn't just looking at the field manual way of fighting, at the organized, rigid way of fighting a war.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: He was looking well beyond that.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: And he was able to save armies in a couple of instances because he thought that way and he acted that way.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Had he stuck around, had he survived the war and survived the accident right after the war, I'm not sure what would have happened to him.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: He would have had to retire because I don't think that a peacetime army would have known what to do with him at that point.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, at that level, especially as a general, obviously, but like you talked about when he was 50 years old, he was still a major.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: That's buried pretty deep inside the army hierarchy.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: And and so, yeah, I mean, I I can kind of sympathize a little bit with that.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: I remember as a captain or a major, I I was thinking how I would do things very, very differently than than what my commanders and leaders were doing.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: And I was ready to leave.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: I I was actually ready to leave the Air Force because I was just so frustrated with not being listened to or whatever.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: And it's funny for me that a few years later I end up staying in the Air Force.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I get promoted made colonel.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: And my wife, she laughed because she goes, you know, you're not saying anything different now as a lieutenant colonel or colonel than you were saying as a major, but they love you now.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, yeah, because they basically told me to just sit down and shut up, Lieutenant, or Captain, or major.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: And so I got very lucky that I had a couple of commanders that I think saw something in me that made me useful for the team at the right time.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: And I'd like to think that I was useful later on in my career, but that's the same with a guy like like Pat or there's other folks in history.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Billy Mitchell's another one from air history that kind of made an infamous name for himself for himself by pushing so hard as a maverick in the interwar period about air power and other things.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he ultimately led himself to be court-martialed.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, obviously his name has been kind of resurrected from the dead, if you will, because you and I both ate in Mitchell Hall for four years of our lives, and that we know that's why we know his name.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: And so I think for all those out there that are not necessarily commanders or leaders, but are CEOs, and you look in your own organization, I'll guarantee you, you've got these folks living and working in your cubicles.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: And it is, I think, the right answer to your question, Derek, because it comes back to another concept that you've talked about at length, and that is, you know, getting to know your people.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: You need to know is this guy or gal railing against the rules because they're just a troublemaker and they're not, they don't fit in, or are they railing against the rules because they see it differently?
17:45
SPEAKER_02: They see something that they could do better, more efficient.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: Are they the true maverick?
17:49
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's up to you as a leader to get to know your folks.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to squash your mavericks, but you also don't want to penalize your dutiful icemen and women that are marching along and doing the work.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: And so this takes a delicate touch as a leader to knowing each and every one of your people, putting them in the right positions at the right times to serve your organization best by helping identify where best to use them and their abilities.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna throw a curveball at you.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned Apple before.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Was Steve Jobs was he an Iceman or was he a maverick?
18:21
SPEAKER_02: So I think Steve Jobs is a maverick.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: I think Apple got themselves into trouble when Steve Jobs left the first time.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: They became more Iceman, right?
18:29
SPEAKER_02: I I I've even seen this in other places where the first generation of people that come through that it's their baby, they're the innovator, they're the person that's driving the train, like Steve Jobs.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: They have this vision and they run with it.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: But pretty soon you start to hire people, unless you just have a particular mind, like Steve Jobs had a particular mind about the way he wanted consumer electronics to be, to work, to be able to be utilized.
18:52
SPEAKER_02: Unless you're that guy and have that kind of vision, you probably coming into that are going to be an iceman.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be somebody that's like, wow, this is something new.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: I've never seen this, you know, the the iPhone or the iPad or whatever else.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: If you weren't the guy that dreamed it up, you're kind of riding the coattails for a while.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: I think Apple almost went out of business in the late 80s because they were so proprietary and they had not built themselves into the system as much as they have now.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: And when Steve Jobs went away, they lost, I think, some of that innovative, aggressive Maverick culture.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: When he comes back, you see they they pick up that culture again, and Apple has become the juggernaut that you know, my kids would never believe that Apple was not the leader in innovation, but they weren't for a while.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: So I think the reality is we talked about on all of this, I need the Mavericks to rub up on my solid and true workers so that the workers can start to understand how to see the world the way the Maverick does.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: But I also need my Iceman to rub up on my Maverick to just say, hey, dude, I can't fight those battles every day.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: I've got to be able to have some kind of solid way to grow and to move forward, to stabilize my teams, to stabilize my business, because I can't just constantly be out there trying to innovate and come up with something new.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: Because as you and I both know, those kind of folks are great, but you've got to be able to minimize their failures.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: When they fail, and they are going to, you're gonna have to insulate that.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: You can't let that failure propagate to the entire team and take down your entire organization.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times you've got the rule followers, the structure people, I'll call them that, that come in after the innovator kicks things off and they love what they see, but they don't understand it.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: They love what they see and they want to protect it.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: So they want to protect the success, they want to protect the growth.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: They don't understand that innovation, you're not gonna be able to stand still.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: You need to keep moving forward, you need to keep innovating.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: They have to ask themselves, what does that look like?
20:42
SPEAKER_00: So a leader who is not necessarily the innovator but likes innovation needs to have a good balance of those people.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: And just like you said, the marriage needs to rub off on the other folks, and then you need to have the structure folks to minimize the damage or to create some expectations, if you will, within the organization so that in calmer times it can still operate, you know, living perpetually in chaos.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me let me take this one back to you a little bit because you were a fighter guy, right?
21:09
SPEAKER_02: You've had to live this life.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: So I want you to imagine you're going into combat, Mavericks your wingman.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: How do you deal with them as a lead of the flight wing?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: You brief them on clear objectives, and you need to have the structure, the structured guy's mentality within him in some ways.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: I want him to be a thinking wingman.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: I want him to think beyond the structure.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: I want him to think beyond your standard formations and your standard weapons deliveries to solve for X.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: We're there to solve for X.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: We're there to help the war effort in a particular way.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: And I I don't want him thinking just what's written in 3-1, just what's written in our tactics manuals.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: I want him thinking, what's the best way to solve this problem?
21:48
SPEAKER_00: I want him to be thinking about the next rewrite of our tactics manuals because people are gonna go, wow, that was an amazing idea.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: But if he just focuses on what's written down now, he'll be good, he'll be proficient, but he's not gonna be great.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: He's not going to be organizationally culturally changing in the way that it needs to happen.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: You need those, those kind of people around.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's how I that's how I'm gonna manage him.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: But I don't want to squash him.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: What I I've said this before, I would tell folks that I want them to be tactical and operational decision makers.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't want them to be rule followers.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: But to be tactical and operational decision makers, we're all on the same team.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: They need to understand and respect the structure of the rules that we have and the structure of the organization or in order for the organization to work as a team, because not everybody's gonna follow Maverick.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Not everybody's gonna be able to go, oh yeah, I got it, and follow what he's saying.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: I need to have a structure where he's able to think outside the box.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: He's able to move the organization forward without everybody else falling, I have no idea where he's going.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: And so then the rest of the organization is stagnant while this one guy is or girl is going in in an amazing direction.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: You need the the entire team to be able to follow.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, and that's the one thing I will say when I went and saw Top Gun Maverick, the sequel, I did find it fairly realistic where Iceman and Maverick ended up.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Because that's pretty much what you would expect.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: Now, there that's another topic you and I can get into.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: That the Iceman who follows the rules and does what he's supposed to do and all that is competently proficient, ends up as the Admiral.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And Maverick, who didn't seem to ever really grow up into much of a leadership position, but he's not a guy that the Navy was going to put in charge of, you know, large formations of ships or aircraft.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: And so that's just, I guess, one of the things that you gotta think about is you know, knowing how best to use your team players to know which guy is the innovative, agile superstar maverick, and which guy's gonna be the guy that you're gonna put in charge of your company because you want the company to continue to operate for the next 20 years.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: It takes both, and when you're the leader of the organization, you have to figure out how to use both.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: You have to figure out at what level and how to and how to keep both happy so that the both are moving forward in the right direction.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: If you're listening and you have further questions, you want to know who in the world is Maverick, who in the world is Iceman, I think you need to go watch a couple of movies and reorient yourself with not just flying, but some key leadership lessons because those are great movies when you want to analyze leadership.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: But if you want to have a further conversation, reach out to me on my website at astericnow.com and we'll have a conversation about it.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: If you want us to discuss it further, then we can put it down as a potential topic if we can define exactly what you want to hear.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Please subscribe and follow us on the show and join us for every week for our this conversation about leadership and decision making and how we can make better decisions so that we get better results.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think you're gonna find that it makes a difference in your life, it makes a difference in your organization.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: So that's it for today's episode of Commander's Intent Podcast.
24:44
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24:50
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25:04
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