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46: How church history inspires our faith now · Beyond The Beacon

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson, New Jersey.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Join us for weekly conversations about our Catholic faith and submit questions for the Bishop today.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jay Agnish, and with me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Bishop Kevin, how are you today?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh good, Jay.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Doing well, thanks.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: So where are where are we here?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're everybody lovely Kinalon, a lady of Magnificat Parish.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: One of the first parishes I visited in the diocese a long time before I became bishop.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: My uh baptismal godmother, my Aunt Noreen, uh, who married Jim Burgold.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh her maiden name was Blewitt, um, first cousin of my mom's.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And her mom, my Aunt Mary, was the one who lived in Elmhurst, where my mom and her brother and sister and other family members, when they came from Ireland, they came to Aunt Mary's house in Elmhurst.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then the family eventually moved here to Smoke Rise.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: I spent a few uh Thanksgivings as a kid at Smoke Rise, and then I celebrated my aunt's funeral here, I think, in um maybe around 2015, I'm guessing.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um my cousin's child's baptism.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so when I came for the first time as bishop, I said I've been here before.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't realize, and uh uh so Father Steve's been here.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: How many years have you been pastor?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: As many as you've been bishop, I think five.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Five years.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit after you've been.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: A little before.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: A little before, right?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Five years.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Father Stephen Chadwell is our guest today.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so you've been here at OLM for five years.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Before that, you were parochial vicar at our Our Lady of Good Council in the Pont and Plains neighborhood of Poquanock.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Before then, you were in the uh at St.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: St.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Joe's in West Milford, right?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my hometown.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh full disclosure, I got married here in your in your beautiful chapel here a couple years ago.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: You you were there for a bit.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, it's good to have you on.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh so why don't we um open up in prayer and and then we'll get into why why we're here on location.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: And just before we enter into prayer, uh just to thank everyone who was praying for our vocation discernment retreat, which took place this past week.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: And how did that go?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Wonderful.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: 24 young men, uh, our vocation director, Father Rama, our assistant vocation director, Father Charlie Lana, three of our seminarians.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it was really some of the priests came to help with confessions, and the Loyola Retreat Center in Morristown is wonderful.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: They had great food, wonderful hospitality, and just very, very encouraging for my first time as bishop to uh have this vocation discernment retreat.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: So keep praying uh that those men will continue to be open to God's call and maybe lead to some guys uh entering the seminary.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we're very grateful for that.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: That stuff.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that was the first one, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: The first one.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: And my time as bishop as a vocation retreat, weekend vocal discernment retreat.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: So what uh would you like to uh pray?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Let's place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, amen.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: We adore you, O Christ, and we praise you because by your holy cross you have redeemed the world.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: On this journey of Lent together with the whole church, we pray for one another, we pray for peace, we pray for the elect and candidates preparing to enter into full initiation in the church of the Easter Vigil.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: We pray together with the whole church, and we fast and we give alms and we practice our Lenten penances and sacrifices to be truly prepared to walk the way of the cross with Jesus during Holy Week, especially on Holy Thursday and Good Friday, and we look forward to celebrating the joy of the resurrection at Easter.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: As we continue on our Lenten journey, we ask the help and intercession of Mary, our blessed mother, our Lady of the Magnificat, as together we pray.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Our Lady of the Magnific of the Magnificat, pray for us in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, Bishop, you you we were talking on the phone, you're like, oh, we got to get up to Kinelon.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's a shroud of Turin, uh replica display.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe tell me about uh the first time you heard about the the replica and maybe set the context of what we're doing here today.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: I came here to the parish, I think, for confirmation.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: We also had a meet and greet.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: That was a great night.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: That was a great night.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I forget the uh first time I was here when the display was here, but um uh getting to know Father Steve as I've been privileged to get to know the priests of our diocese.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um Father Steve, wonderful pastor, and uh looking to be innovative and uh blessed with a beautiful church here, uh beautiful grounds and facilities.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it's one of the churches.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: Do you remember the church the year the church was built?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: This was '83, I believe.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't here.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: I was living in Europe at the time.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh very much a church of its time in the round, as I'm looking at it from the beautiful entranceway that we have here where we're recording the episode.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: And at that time, uh after the council, the gathering space coming into the church was a place that was emphasized.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we have that here at O'Lady Magnificat, and there's also a beautiful hallway to one of the side entrances uh as we're recording.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: And Father Steve can tell a story about um having this wonderful display of the Shroud of Turin.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh my own personal recollection of hearing about the Shroud as a kid, and we can talk about some of the controversy over so-called carbon 14 dating and a time when it seemed like, oh, maybe the shroud doesn't go back to the time of Christ, but then Father Steve can help us to know that uh the amount of evidence and I invit one of the reasons we're here is to invite our listeners and viewers to come here and see the display because when you look at, and these are replicas obviously of the original, but beautiful replicas.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, and uh to see the face of Christ, to see his wounds, uh we pray the stations of the cross, especially on Fridays during Lent, and we'll do the way of the cross on on Good Friday, and we meditate on his suffering, not for the gore.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Father Steve can talk about even the way the shroud shows the scourging and the crown of thorns, but his love for us, uh his passion, his carrying the cross, uh, and his giving everything for us in the Eucharist on at the Last Supper that we celebrate each time we celebrate the Mass.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Here's my body broken for you, here's my blood poured out for you, take and eat, take and drink, do this in remembrance of me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, every st every church has the station of the cross, there's different uh forms of art and art, artistry and impressions, but uh that uh we're an incarnational faith, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus became, took on our flesh, God became flesh in the womb of our blessed mother, fully human and fully divine.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and and the word of God and our faith engages us not only in our mind, but in our bodies and in our emotions, and and art can do that, whether it be music, whether it be painting.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: But something about the shroud, uh, the stations of the cross are depictions.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much about the shroud that says we can get close to uh his actual suffering.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: Each of those stations is there.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is that right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they they uh scourged and mocked mocked him.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's there.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: He meets his mother.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna point out to the hair, you know, in the back being pulled back.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably what I think is his blessed mother.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you see the the terrible wounds on his back.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly the nails.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: The nailing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can see the falls because of the dirt in the nose and the knees uh from Jerusalem.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a way you could actually do this the way of the cross right here.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right here.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: On this one image, you know?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe Father Steve, can you let us know?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the Shroud of Turin is is what exactly?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's the So the Shroud of Turin is a linen cloth of heronbone weave on which is the image of a crucified man.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's the the um the overall kind of scientific view.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: For us, and I have good reason as as there's no doubt, uh that this is the cloth that Joseph of Arimathea is said to have wrapped the body of Jesus in a new linen cloth, and it's the same cloth that uh John and Peter notice is left behind in the tomb on the day of the resurrection.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: They peer in, they see the cloth that he was wrapped in, folded up, laying uh uh where the body had been, and the cloth that covered his face rolled up in a different place.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is that cloth.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is what you're looking at.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is the cloth the shroud of the the burial shroud of Jesus Christ?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: The one that covered his face.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, the one that covered his face.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's called a mandolin or a smaller cloth.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is called the Cindanae or a larger uh piece of cloth.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this shroud.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is a replica of that of the original shroud which is in Turin today.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's a photographic uh How did it end up in Kinalon?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did it end up in Kinelon?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was living outside of uh Paris, France in a town called Fontenay au Rose, and when I arrived there for to the ministry, the um in the bottom of the chapel were rooms, and the priest there was a big Shroud of Turin fan.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: He was an Italian priest, and he knew the photographer that took these pictures, and the photographer had made a sort of um Shroud of Turin exposition pictorially, because it's so rare that the Shroud is on exhibition for people to and it's so hard to get to you have to get to Turin and you have to get it in line and you they rush you past and all that.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you would miss a lot of this.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So this fellow mounted this exhibit exposition, we had it in France.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Friends of mine, coming from St.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Paul's in Prospect Park, where I had been, uh, wanted to visit France and I showed them the exposition.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: He fell in love with it and purchased the whole exposition from the author.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we what we had in Paris, France is what you have here.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: He comes back to the United States with it all in tubes rolled up and in tubes and all that, and never did anything with it for 20 years.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he wanted to put it, mount it, and have a kind of a traveling uh exposition, but he never did anything.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: In last February, I believe it was last February, his wife passed away and he called me and said, Do you want this Shroud of X uh Turin exposition that I had?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting old now and I I I'm not gonna do much with it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I unfurled it for the staff in the directory dining room.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I needed a space long enough.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the staff went, ballistic.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: They say, Well, you've gotta, you've gotta put this thing up.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to put this up.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine never being having the hope of going to see the shroud?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden it comes right here into Kenela, New Jersey, in what you would actually see in Turin.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it and and better than what you would see in Turin.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you can really take the time to soak in all the details.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that sparked the scientific investigation into the shroud was that it appears much more clear in a photograph than it does in real life.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, okay.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh the photograph actually allows people to see a lot more detail than they would if they were standing in front of the shroud interim.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's front it's at too far away from you.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's protected glass.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Covered by tons of glass.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bulletproof glass or something.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and uh and ultraviolet light protection and all that sort of thing.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um it really would be difficult to have what we have here.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to have an experience of the shroud as we have it here.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so the staff said you've got to you've got to get this thing mounted.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the fellow who donated was a carpenter by trade all his life.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I called him and I said, Okay, uh, you've got to come back and mount everything for me.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there were a lot of difficulties with the mounting.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to destroy any of the woodwork in the in the church, and we had to make sure that the panels didn't slip down on themselves because of the weight of the photograph.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and he figured it all out and mounted it.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: He was about 78 at the time.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: He said, This is my last job I'm gonna do.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm retired and I'm not gonna do anything after this.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, in December, after he mounted it all, that he died himself.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, and he left it, and here's a good news for the bishop if you want.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: He left it to me and to the parish with the understanding that if I get transferred from the parish or I die, so if I'm transferred two weeks from now, it's because of this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: This exposition goes to the diocese.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: It belongs to the diocese.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if the bishop wants it, he wants it to be in good hands that will not sure just uh throw it away or no, it's a treasure.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it is a treasure.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I saw it a couple of times when I was here over the last year.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: But now to take some time earlier today, and yeah, I'm pointing to it from you won't see it up, but you we took some.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: We'll have some B-roll video on the video version.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Is it 40 uh 47 panels that tell the history of the shroud?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I didn't realize it had been in France, how it ended up in in Turin, the picture of the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II praying before it, yeah, and uh the fire that took place.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: But you you say um uh some of this even goes back uh to to the four five hundreds, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, some of the iconic iconographic stuff.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing we want to keep sure that the shroud is unique in all the world.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: There are no two shrouds.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a reason why it's unique.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's induplicable.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know how it's made.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So no one can replicate it.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's unique.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: All they can do is copy it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we have copies of it in illuminated manuscripts, on coins or medallions, uh dating way back uh 500s and and forward.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Which let me stop you there just because uh the so-called carbon 14 date dating, which was in we think the 80s or 90s, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh and it seemed like science had said, oh, this is a uh a uh uh uh uh material from 1200s, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: From the 13th century.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't really hold water, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't hold water for a lot of reasons, but let's leave aside uh a lot of the murky waters.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not get into the murky water thing.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: What it doesn't hold water for is two big reasons.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: The first is it doesn't jive with all the other scientific evidence.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's no way that it could have been have been made in the 1300s and still carry uh the the bulk of the uh contemporary scientific facts would not have been known back then.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it it couldn't have been if uh they can't even duplicate it today scientifically.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: They've tried every method possible.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: The second reason is the scientist uh the the announcement from the British laboratory uh went beyond the bounds of science.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: He came out and called it a forgery.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that was not his purpose, you know.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a forgery of what?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's not another one in the world.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: How could it have been a forgery?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, it's a unique document from the 1300s.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: It has such a long history, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: Of uh being venerated and oh my gosh, yes, yes.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right, looked at and copied.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we can point it out to the folks beyond, but if you look at that 3D one up behind you, Bishop, over there, you're gonna see what looks like some cross beams going across uh the lower back.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those are uh a big study called uh raking light study, where they hit the shroud from the side of it and it shows up all the creases, and there's a whole st and the uh there's a whole linen keeps very well the f the crease marks and the wrinkles, and and there's a whole study on that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason those are important is in in Constantinople the shroud when it arrives in Constantinople, we have a report from uh Robert of Clary who went in the uh to help liberate the shroud that the shroud used to be raised up every Friday and standing up so that people could view it and then fold it back down, standing up.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that that mechanism they uh they surmise was like a baton was probably what caused those creases.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we have them in all up and down the shroud, which lends credence to Robert de Clary's it stood up.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: He says it stood up on a Friday, you know?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it was viewed for veneration.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: We also know it was used as a uh kind of like the the uh the uh what do you call that?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: The Ark of the Covenant or a palindrum, they would bring it into battle because whoever had it could not lose.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's reported already in the 600s as being brought into battle in in Constantinople and whatnot.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have images from illuminated manuscripts.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have the Mozambique uh text in the script uh for Easter, Peter and John run and they see the cloth with the traces on it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: We have all sorts of mentions that are really are thousand years before.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Speaking of some of the scientific study, you have some beautiful flowers there next to you.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: Say a word about the pollen, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's to make me look the bishop look better.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I put those there on purpose.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: They were here, but um the pollen studies on it are are one of the interesting things.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the shroud i is in Jerusalem, obviously, because Christ is crucified just outside the city there.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one would expect that there would be pollens from Jerusalem on the shroud.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And one would expect that it would be pollen from Antioch in Syria and uh down to Constantinople and through to France and and wherever it had been.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And indeed, that's exactly it.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: They find all those pollens all uh throughout the world.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because apparently you told me before the show that pollens can list.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Pollens can live up to a uh uh million years.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: So pollens that are native to the areas where the shroud had traveled.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: There are traces of them.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Traces of them, plenty of them on this on the thing.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the things is don't forget the shroud wasn't always protected the way it was.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was an object of veneration w right from the early days of the church.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's a mention in St.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Paul that uh is interesting to whom Christ crucified was uh exposed.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what it means, but probably it could have been Peter had the shroud.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well there's a lot well, that's a complicated, it's too much for a podcast.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll do an up episode.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, you would not expect to find pollens where the shroud had not been, and in fact, you do not.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because pollens are regional uh and they you know you don't find palm tree pollens in New Jersey in great abundance, you know, because we don't have palm trees.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But you would expect them to find them in Florida or wherever palm trees grow.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's exactly the same thing with the shroud.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where it has been, we have the pollens.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where it has never been, we do not have those pollens, you know.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um so that's really interesting.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: This the scientific um, I guess, evidence or proof of the shroud's authenticity.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: What about from uh a spiritual or a personal perspective, drew you personally to the shroud the first time that I was?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question, Jay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say one is everyone's curiosity what did Jesus look like?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're always asking ourselves, what did he look like?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: How tall was he?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one thing I really wanted to see, a face of Jesus.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: And apparently long fingers.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Very long fingers.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: He could play piano very well.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: He had very long fingers.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for a carpenter, you know.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's funny, I was thinking he could hold a curveball or a change up very well.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the Yankees, of course, and then being a son of God, you can't lose.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: At least they thought they.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the I think the next thing that attracted me was something that I had um read when I was studying and and realized had an importance was that comment of John that they looked into the tomb and saw the cloths.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: What purpose did he?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was studying scripture, you gotta know that the writers of scripture they don't have much room.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: They run all the words together and and if something is there, it's because they wanted it there.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: What was John's purpose in noting the cloths?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of them, of course, is the difference between Lazarus, who comes out in his clothes and Jesus who transcends history and therefore leaves the cloth behind.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to see those cloths.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the tomb wasn't exactly empty on Easter morning.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: He left behind the cloth.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a great witness to the resurrection.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And John takes careful note that the cloths were there, you know, and again, they don't they leave out a lot of scripture in scripture because they don't it's not important, they don't have room, they change things around, they change dates, time, sequences to fit a theology.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: But what is there definitely had uh a significance for John.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: And as you were saying uh earlier, that this body that is shown on the cloth is not alive, right?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's dead, there's rigor mortis, there's but uh it's possible that that was the moment when something happened because the thing that I remember hearing about the shroud is that as you said, there there's no trace of any paint, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: And you talked about how different things are on fiber, uh but and and that it's it's a negative, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because uh negative.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: So the original um uh Joe Gilliar uh photographer is here, he can talk about some of those.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: that technology, but but the way the photographs happen and the light that causes it to happen and um that the and and the power I think of the the the light that may have occurred at that moment uh and and that would have transferred that that image uh onto the uh on to onto the linen is there's there's there's very few explanations for how it could happen right there are no explanations that's is the best hypothesis um it's some sort of burst of radiation burst of energy radiation right uh and they still can't produce that burst of energy to make an image on the cloth like this uh it's anatomically correct there's no distortion in the figure uh whatever uh whatsoever and so yes absolutely it could be the moment of the of the resurrection caught right in a photograph right wow making its own photo it would then be a photograph and not an image right yeah uh so you mentioned uh Wednesday evenings during Lent there's uh you're giving tours is that right yes I give the tours on Wednesday evenings we're having pretty good crowds too come up I think we got hopefully we'll get some for more now as people but it's it's a spiritual experience right I mean if you want I mean sh I had was thinking about the way of the cross before you came that you can do the entire way of the cross right on this image.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is that it's unique in all the world the third is that everything all scientific studies the carbon 14 dating aside and and uh all the scientific studies point to this being the shroud that we're told in John's gospel was wrapped the dead body of Christ was wrapped in and placed in a tomb.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is that shroud and it's got a incredible incredible witness not only to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ or to Jesus himself his face and and all that sort of thing but uh to what we Christians hold most dear that God lays down his life that ours might go on.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know and there you have it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So and how can people uh should should they give you a call or or call the parish office call the parish office 8386838 awesome 973 good and at what time on Wednesdays?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: 7 p.m because our our exposition works best at night folks uh uh when we won't be able to show you because I don't think the podcast will be long enough uh but and but we're gonna close this bishop off for you and put on the black lights where everything really really comes alive and you can see the better you know bishop I want to pose a similar question to you um first have you ever seen the shroud of torin in in person what about the first time you heard of it it it's existence I remember hearing things about it as a kid and I think seeing documentaries and in the seminary and again without remembering the details something about this announcement of this carbon 14 dating and oh and I think for myself I said oh that's too bad I guess it wasn't what it seemed to be and kind of moved on but I was saying before we went on the started recording um Father Mark Mancini uh Pastor St.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: James in Toto I last uh last year during um Holy Week sent me a um a a podcast or a something I think on YouTube a presentation about an expert um and I've heard some things in the last year or two about a a renewed interest in the in in the shroud and as you stop and take some time to listen to the story and and some of the scientific evidence and some of the inexplainable uh how it's unrepeatable you start to realize wow this as Father Steve said right uh and and that it's it's still with us that it's it's had its history of traveling and fires and uh and and handling right right um and water damage it's it's still there so um the um different things can connect us even on the retreat with the young men this weekend I talked about um you know how the mass and and being part of the church today um can bring us back to the time of the Acts of the Apostles you know the the faith that is given to us in the sacraments and through the community of believers that as a parish or the the the mystical body of Christ as the church uh that Jesus came and he called his apostles and he taught and worked miracles and suffered died on on the cross and rose and then the Holy Spirit came and that church that was born on Pentecost is our one Holy Catholic apostolic church of which we are a part and I think something like this is just one more of many examples if we have the eyes to see and interest to and patience to give it some thought that there's there's something here more than meets the eye I'd say and and I think spending some time uh meditating on the history of the shroud and the beautiful images that we have here can help us to uh be there again at at at Calvary.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah absolutely I think that's a wonderful thing.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole thing is we put it back up for we took it down for Christmas time but we put it back up specifically to help people along the latent journey.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know and it is a a beautiful powerful spiritual moment.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: True if they come for the tour I go through a lot more detail.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't do any of the blood studies or in the fiber studies or can I ask you Father Stephen um without spoiling the tour can you perhaps share some of the uh interesting points anecdotes or or points that maybe even surprised you the first time you you learned about them?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I overheard you become a bit of an expert I guess do you want me to stand up and point them out or I don't want to move your camera.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: No some of the things that surprised me when I when I was began to study it seriously was uh the hair in a ponytail.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It seems and I personally this is my own personal opinion but it seems someone pulled the hair back and straightened it and flattened it out in the back and I can only imagine that's his blessed mother as the body lay in her arms taken down from the cross and fixing her son's hair.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wow you know and that uh you can see that in the image over there the the hair uh pulled back another was the blood flow studies were I found very interesting which are um uh typical of someone crucified and said something about the arms right the blood flow they do a whole study on it yeah the blood the blood splatter experts and all that do a whole study on it and it's actually you know anatomically correct that the blood would have flown this way uh this in the bo the wound in the side going down across the small of the back and all that sort of thing.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the marks on the crown the crown of thorns is fabulous.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can really see it you know both sides in the and it pops in the 3D but what really I wanted to also um what what I found very interesting other than the face of Christ which I I told you that was one of the things I wanted to see desperately but where the hands took me by surprise.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: I pointed out to everyone in no very long fingers and um and you know you can't see the thumbs and that's because when you crucify someone the thumb pulls in when you do it through the wrist.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so when he died the the rigor had set in uh and he if you look at the shroud there are no thumbs on it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you also look at the shroud and you can see which is one of the interesting things they're trying to say there's a possible connection with the Byzantine cross being crooked it appears that one foot is shorter than the other and that's because if he was crucified one foot over the other the left was on top of the right the right was up against the cross and that left foot therefore was bent.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well the left would have been stretched out the leg.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes they've done a linear measurement it's a normal size normal length leg.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it had rigor it remained bent in the when it was put in the shroud the other thing was uh how it's mapped 3D and that is um the shroud is what they call a a ver point for point vertical so it's not an explosion of light that goes out like all this it's a point for point so this point touching the shroud goes to that point on the shroud this point goes to that point on the shroud that is you you couldn't paint it you'd have to be underneath going like here you wouldn't get it straight otherwise you'll get a distorted face a distorted body a wider than life image this is anatomically perfect so it's point for point and where the shroud touches and where it doesn't touch there's a difference in color and because it's anatomically correct and point they are allowed they can map it 3D.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's encoded with 3D imagery.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah something again that doesn't drive with the carbon 14 dating no one would have known even given the carbon 14 dating they would have known how to point paint point for point and of course there is it's not a painting and that uh to make lighter and darker and they can actually in a ratio that is proportionate they can um map it 3D and that's what we have here some of those uh 3D images blown up uh of the shroud they actually mapped it with a V8 um the believe it or not the United States Air Force was big on that yeah and they were the ones to get it mapped 3D.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it is indeed a very uh it is a 3D image so you'll notice on when when you look at the shroud on our exposition the cloth of the nuns that the nuns sowed the patches or anything else the blood that is there that is not 3D is actual matter uh doubles itself or shadows itself but the body of Christ doesn't you just get one yeah so you can look if you look behind you Jay I can show you on that image over there or over here I'm gonna get up for a minute.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look over here you're gonna see this patch and you're gonna see a shadow patch behind it.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's because the patch is not 3D.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the body doesn't get a shadow face or shadow hair or shadow anything like that.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's 3D.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: You get it?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah awesome come and see it for yourself right I think that's the only way to really do it yeah come come to Kinelon give Father Steve a call call the parish office here at Our Lady of the Magnetic come on a Wednesday evening.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or come on a Wednesday evening yep.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah awesome well thanks so much for again if I get the test for next week an ownership goes to the dynasty do you know why well well you I think you're needed because you're you you sound very expert when you talk about this and it's fascinating to learn that's history so thank you and thanks for sharing sharing your time with us.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for this I wonder if do you do you relate like um I don't know relics kind of in in the same um category as something like the shroud shroud or in a certain sense there there is relics there's the blood of Christ there.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh okay dried but there and that would make it in that sense real in the other sense no I don't think this is in the class of relics because it's the Lord it's the Lord as Bishop said we love the saints and we have they can help us get close to the Lord but there's only one Lord there's only one Him you know so and if it is if it is as Bishop says the the moment of the resurrection uh I don't know do you have a relic of the resurrection you know you have uh an image yeah you know and maybe that's why the body is dead bishop because uh the resurrected body right is it a lot of demand yeah right awesome okay well as we uh wind down the episode bishop what what else is happening what so uh you've been a little busy the last week or so uh just again with the podcast giving us the opportunity to talk about some things kind of as they're happening uh we've been in the news a little bit about uh uh some decisions in the city of Patterson and uh we're doing just uh couple of parishes uh St.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um Gerard's will be uh helping with uh our Lady of Pompeii parishes those kind of two parishes will be coming together as in a bit of a merger and uh St.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: Michael's Parish beautiful St.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: Michael's Church in Patterson historic one of the first some said the first Italian parish or one of the first in in in New Jersey um or at least in the diocese of Patterson goes back to 1929 when it was built but even earlier for the parish community right right and just located a few blocks from the cathedral there's problems with the tower that uh towers that um were tried to repair work was done a little over ten years ago and um there's some other challenges with the facilities and um in working with the the pastor Father Enrique Corona and the cathedral Monsignor Gino and the staff at the cathedral we uh we feel for public safety we need to close the parish for a time do an evaluation uh the parishioners were asked to consider going to mass at the at the cathedral since it's so close by and there's other parishes as well so we did our best I think to communicate that uh it's one of the more difficult things I've had to do in my time as bishop because there is uh a wonderful community there's a great history there's a a more recent uh Hispanic community that's uh uh been so much a part of that uh community in recent years um so uh we're hoping that it's you know just a matter of time before we're gonna be able to uh we need to find the finances it that's a challenge to do some of the work uh that needs to be done on the towers and uh evaluate the other facilities and uh we look forward to the reopening at at some point but we're you know we're not sure when that is yet and uh again uh I think and I I thanks to you Jay and and and and Monsignor Gino at the cathedral and and Father Enrique uh um I think the the the press coverage that we've got has has been um you know objective and uh yes there's sadness uh but um it's something that we're working through and um and and we pray for one another and we pray uh understandably for the people of St.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: Michael's it's been a hard time but we look forward to to the reopening of the church.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well and I thought you wrote an excellent letter to the family the parish family there bishop that showed real um pastoral care and empathy for the situation and it yeah definitely a difficult situation and uh some people are working on uh with the city of Patterson with mayor andre um uh to look for a grant that might help with some of the it's a historic landmark the the church so uh maybe there's some funds available that can help in in in working towards that uh eventual uh repair uh and and please god reopening now you had mentioned St.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Gerard's and another pastor Our Lady of Pompeii uh and so so what exactly the the numbers in our in terms of people and sacraments at Our Lady of Pompeii has been going down in recent years.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's still I was there for confirmation a few weeks ago there's still a a a small vibrant community there but um that the need for a full-time pastor is um not necessarily uh the case the possibility of having a mass in Spanish as well as there's an Italian community there.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so Monsignor Hunt who just recently became the pastor of St.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Gerard's and a young priest uh Father Manuel Cuellar uh are serving at St.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Gerard's and they've been working with Father Frank Agresti has been the pastor in our Lady of Pompeii for I think 12 or 13 years and uh they've been working with the parish leaders in on both parishes to bring those two parish communities together so that as of July uh Monsignor Hunt and and uh Father Manuel will be caring for the pastoral and sacramental life of our Lady of Pompeii and and Father Frank will be moving on to another assignment but um uh you know it's a little bit easier because the church will will remain open and mass will still be celebrated there.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Again we look forward to that in the future at St.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Michael's but uh it's a tougher case because for a time that there there's we're not gonna the church won't be open.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: So our Lady of Pompeii and St.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: George's are remaining open okay well yeah it's um must not be easy for you Bishop I know we prayed for you today just in at Mass for for the leaders of the diocese so we continue to pray for you and thank you for your leadership.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: And let me just mention uh this coming uh Saturday is um the Morristown Morris County St.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: Patrick's Day parade uh so I'll be happy to celebrate the mass at Assumption Parish in Morristown at nine o'clock before the parade uh I'm not able to stay for the parade because uh my family uh is going and got me a ticket to the St.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: John's Georgetown game at Madison Square Garden.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so uh I'm looking forward to that and then uh Sunday evening we're having a young you young adult revival um night at St.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Mary's in Pompton Lakes and we'll be announcing the winners of our video contest uh for some uh free trips to the uh Eucharistic Congress we got seven I think entries from from teams of two to uh about their love for the Eucharist the meaning of the Eucharist in their lives so safe tune for more details on that but everyone's welcome to come to the evening of young adult evening of revival uh on Sunday evening at St.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Mary's in Pompton Lake 7 o'clock I believe and just because you don't win may not win the video uh contest you're still welcome to join us in this Congress yes okay all right well thank thanks again Father Steve for your pleasure I think come to our Lady of Magnificat see the shroud and be inspired uh and and uplifted in faith absolutely yeah absolutely thank you for spending time with us get to know us a little better by following Beyond the Beacon on Facebook or Instagram I hope you'll join us for our next episode don't forget to subscribe comment and leave us a positive rating if you're watching on Bishop Kevin Sweeney's YouTube channel be sure to like subscribe and ring the bell for notifications email questions and podcast topic ideas for the Bishop to beyond at pattersondiocese.org thank you for joining us thank you very much God bless you thank you everyone for listening