Latest / The Flatpicking Podcast / He LOST at Rockygrass

Transcript

He LOST at Rockygrass · The Flatpicking Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, Hayes, you lost at Rocky Grass.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I lost at Rocky Grass, dude.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's funny you say uh lost at Rocky.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't, I I wasn't about to say that you lost at Rocky Grass.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right before we started recording, Hayes said we could talk about how I lost at Rocky Grass, which is so funny because I was going to suggest that we start by talking about how you almost won at Rocky Grass.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're glass half full versus half empty over here today.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's all, you know, it's all a matter of perspective.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you're almost a big winner.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh yeah, this is this is not related, but I did hear somebody say, you know, are you glass half empty, you glass half full?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody's answer was like, it's a beautiful glass.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's very deep.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's really something you know, dude.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that can be applied to this situation, you know?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I was gonna I have a lot of questions about uh about this because uh well, we've never talked about this, but the idea of a guitar competition or any kind of competition uh is is pretty horrifying to me personally, just like the experience of it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm so curious to hear all about your experience and everything.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: But do you find, I mean, I'll just start from the beginning.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find you're able to enjoy the whole experience regardless of the result?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I have gotten to the point where I I can do that now.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think um there have been times where so if we if we rewind a little bit, I start I jumped back into the contest scene like three years ago.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is my third year in a row of like doing contests again, ever since I was, I think I had taken like an 18-year break, you know, something like that.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the first year I had no expectations, and that's the year that I won second at Winfield, you know, and was like, whoa, this is pretty fun, you know, like that's that's awesome.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is the guitar, in fact.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, killer.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that was was just kind of like mind-blowing to me.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the next year I went back to Winfield and I had expectations and I did worse, you know, and and and I don't even mean that my expectations like made me play worse or that like you know, somehow that affected how I was judged.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think just my entire mindset for the year was was like the voice was a little too loud that was telling me that I needed to do something to win this thing.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas that first year, I was meditating every day.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was focusing on one note at a time in my arrangements, executing, you know, just just like playing good music.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so year three, that we're in year three right now.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten back, I think, a little bit to that like, let's just play the music and see what happens kind of thing.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Rocky Grass was infinitely more pleasurable as a result of me adopting that mentality this past year.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it was like a lower pressure in terms of the interpersonal thing or the just the the kind of structure of the contest and kind of like you know, like like we're talking about, like caring about winning and all that stuff.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: What does that even mean?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's so subjective how these things are judged, anyways, that like I don't think you can place too much uh on yourself in terms of like not being able to win one of these contests, because at the end of the day, really, there are a lot of uh good players that show up to these things, and it kind of could be any player's contest, depending on what the judges want to hear.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, and you know, I I beefed up one of my arrangements at Rocky Grass, so I can't complain about not winning, you know what I mean?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because it it I didn't perform as well as I could have, you know.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was all lighthearted, man, backstage.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of great players there.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a guy named Forrest Thurman won.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: He was Arizona State uh champion last year.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Great dude, great picker.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: We had a blast like getting to know each other and chatting backstage.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, I I feel like at Rocky Grass this year, as a result of that kind of three-year cycle that I just talked about, was kind of a way more pleasurable experience than it could have been, like Winfield for me last year.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like I, you know, I'm sure everyone's had that experience when you're just getting started with something, you you're kind of yeah, again, no expectations.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and maybe it's just fun to be involved.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there's kind of a magic to that, right?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh when people say like beginner's luck, I bet that's what that really means is not luck.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, you know, you're not in your own way yet.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I feel like uh yeah, I feel like there's tons of stuff like that that uh we're spending a lot of our time trying to get back to that kind of beginner's mindset, you know, not just to have skill, you know, doing the thing you're doing, but like your experience being present or enjoying it, certainly, you know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that uh I like that you kind of flip that into beginner's mindset because that reminds me of some of the like Josh Turknet kind of materials, you know, the brain joe thing.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that those two two things are like directly related, you know, beginner's mindset, having more curiosity about the situation, um, taking more pleasure in like the smaller things, you know.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I am so happy.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: You'll love this.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I was having kind of a a bit of an adrenal response in both rounds of the contest at Rocky Grass.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not to say that I didn't get nervous, you know.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was still having a good time, but like when you get in front of a crowd of people and they're like, you're being judged right now, you know, your body's like, oh, you know.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was having this adrenal response, I could feel some shakes coming in and stuff like that, but I stuck with every breath, I stuck with every note, you know what I mean?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was able to kind of um play through the arrangements, I was able to get all the notes out, at least in the first round.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I think there's something important about that beginner's mindset thing, you know.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny you mentioned too, you know, all the different uh you know, ways you can look at what it means to win something like that, you know.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and this is not the last time, certainly we're gonna be talking about contests.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh uh folks may be aware that there's a documentary being produced called Winfield, uh of which Hayes is one of the one of the uh main focuses as he prepares to uh compete again in the Winfield uh national guitar competition.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: So this is gonna be a recurring theme for for a little while, at least for us.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but when I found out you guys were doing that documentary, it got me curious because I haven't really I'm really outside the competition world.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've been aware of it, but like uh I don't know what the the rules are, I don't know who wins these things.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't generally, you know, it doesn't come across my desk per se.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I got curious and I started looking into it.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so fascinating.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you go look, especially go look at Winfield, the past winners, you'll see a lot of names that you recognize not usually as the winners.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I rec I saw way more people I recognized in second and third place than I did in first, which is not to say I don't know what it means.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it means I go check out so-and-so that won and say, Oh, it turns out there's this really great player I've never heard of.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, go look at it for the last 20 years or however many, whenever it was that Kenny Smith was regularly doing it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was hoping he would say how many times Kenny Smith did not win Winfield, and you kind of think about it, it's like, huh, that's interesting.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's um one of my favorite flat pickers of all time, kind of objectively one of the most like accomplished, skilled, you know, creative, unique players.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so like, what is this world in which that isn't enough, you know, or or whatever.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Who who knows?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows what the situation is?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you have some context for that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I do remember I remember even Noam Pakelli talking about this, that he would do banjo contests now and again when he was younger, and uh and didn't win them.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he again, to me, objectively, one of the most skilled, creative, and unique players.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody can do what he does, uh, but that's not enough.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or in the moment, whatever you need didn't happen.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: So somebody else was able to do the thing you needed to do.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: So um I find that really fascinating that uh it's not like we're talking about in the award show thing in the last episode, you know, it's like it doesn't really mean just it's not just a popularity contest necessarily, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just like, well, this person is the best in my mind, so they are the winner.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's what's happening right now.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's what's what's the uh I guess you know, what's what's today look like for this person?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really what it's judged on, right?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the that's the pressure.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I wonder, yeah, I wonder if you have any more context to to to what it means for all these, you know, heroes of ours to almost win, you know.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think it it's uh it's everything you talked about there.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I like the the fact that you brought up the kind of immediacy of it, because I think um whoever shows up that day and whatever is being played that day, it's it's so that's why I guess I I have this opinion that it's so subjective.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen enough of these things in my life that like I've seen Alan Shad lose contests.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're talking three-time national champion, you know, Alan Shad.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen him go to contests and not come out on top.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's I think it has a lot to do with your mindset that day, you know, your state of mind.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the weather matters.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know that sounds ridiculous, but like is it is it really hot outside?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: If so, are your hands sweating?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are you like, you know, sticking to your guitar?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: If so, like all of that's gonna affect it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there are all those kind of like environmental factors, but but I think another angle that I look at it too, um Eric Harden, the year that I uh took second at Winfield in 2024, Eric Hardin won.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he and I have been running into content running into each other at contests since we were kids, you know, like like teenagers.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um Eric, I I saw him what the one of the years that I went to Winfield early on was the year that Brian McDowell won guitar, mandolin, and fiddle all in the same year, right?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and his kind of like posse that year was um Brandon Davis and Eric Harden.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those two guys were that they were the top three in the contest that year.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So like Eric has been performing at a high level.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen him win Wayne Henderson's contest multiple times.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: He was, I don't know if he played second or third that year with Brian, but he was top three, you know.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I guess what I'm driving at is like you could be one of the best, most active players in the scene, and it could take you 15 years to win that contest just to get the right kind of alignment of all those variables that we talked about before.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of it has to do with just like coming back, keep keeping after it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think Kenny Smith didn't win first place ever at Winfield because in that time he became a famous bluegrass guitar player and had a career, you know what I mean?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So and and like David Greer is on that list, you know what I mean?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's like all these other names of, like you said, people that we see actively on the scene who are, I think most people would agree with us that they are known as professional musicians, not contest guitar players, right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think there's there's kind of some of that factor to it too.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: How much how many uh years is that person willing to commit to going to this thing and and trying to get the the the win, you know?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's really I I love that the um that the bigger picture could be uh that it's this community of people who decide we're gonna keep showing up and trying to do this really difficult thing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And part of the reason there's stakes is because we're competing and we're being judged.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not meaningless, you know.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's some attached meaning.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of right, and it can make you nervous, it can make you, you know, whatever it is.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it puts a challenge, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I love that that is the is could be the bigger picture because I think the most cynical version of my take on both awards and uh competition, just any type of competition, or you know, recognition, uh whatever it is.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: My most cynical take on that uh is often, well, you know, the awards don't necessarily mean anything.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: The competition isn't necessarily music, it's not the way that I like to play music with people.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: It it kind of could be a slippery slope to kind of this toxic view of, you know, there's a lot of you could go down that road for a long time and really be kind of entrenched in that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there have been times when I kind of have felt that way.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it it is feeling more now like a misunderstanding of of what what that community, the comp the you know, the contest community couldn't could be.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's plenty of that, you know, kind of negative stuff.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are people that treat it that way, you know, definitely.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I love the idea that uh I'm sure there's lots of people that and it sounds like what you're describing when you show up to these things, is you want to win because that's what you're there to to do, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to again, you can't remove the meaning, otherwise, why show up?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be a little bit of that meaning of I'm trying to do the best I can and win.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: But but that that's the uh that's the conceit.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you all show up.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then the what you get is you're surrounded by this community of people who've been working on things really hard, and you're all kind of sharing that with each other.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like among the people you're friends with, or among the people that are kind of big names in the contest world, are really supportive of each other.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's not um doesn't sound like too cutthroat a situation.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: The the big names that I know in that world are always commenting, so and so did a great job, or whatever thing it is, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, in every way that a sport is this made-up game that we're playing and attaching meaning to, you know, uh there's kind of this beautiful ideal, it sounds like, where it's um it's a it's a community kind of like, hey, here's what I've been working on, check this out.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what do you all think?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and uh I I can really appreciate that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that in that way, I can start to approach it um as as bigger than the worst version of it in my mind, right?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that I that I kind of have without the context.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I I'm actually really excited to learn more about that world because um it uh it's always scared me to to do something like that, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I wouldn't say of stage fright per se in a performance context, um, because I'm uh I'm able to remove the you know competition from my mind if I'm just on stage with a band.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't feel like a competing with someone necessarily, although sometimes I can I can get nervous like that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea of being specifically judged, I just know would be a minefield for me psychologically, you know.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh that puts us both in the same category, my friend.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're willing, you're willing to confront it, and I haven't yet.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So what's so funny is like I I wish I could like, you know, I wish I could put all of you guys in the like, you know, being John Malkovich version of of this and like just be inside my head while I'm doing this thing.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because five seconds before I walk up to hit the stage, I'm cool as a cucumber.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've just played my arrangements, everything's fine, everything feels good.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it's like as soon as my foot hits the stairs to walk up onto that thing, my body like they're like, my body's like, it's go time.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the the adrenaline starts pumping, and there's that kind of extra handicap that comes up, you know what I mean?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: This like tension or or whatever, you know, adrenal response, I just call it because it's everything associated with that, you know.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what's funny is it Rocky Grass, Forrest and I were joking backstage because we both felt that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like we were getting inside each other's heads or like messing with each other during the copy.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't need to do that because our bodies are good enough at doing that there on their own.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're just goofing the whole time, you know, backstage.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're like chatting about stuff and and like you said, building community.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Steve Kaufman and Alan Shad uh have been like two of my greatest supporters in all of this, you know, like just like you said, uh encouraging words, um, critical feedback when I need it, but not never in like a mean way, you know what I mean?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um Roy Curry came up to me in the bullpen at Winfield last year and was like, hey, is I you know, I've heard your stuff before, like I I love it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to say that, you know, like shake your hand and say, like, keep after it, man.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm like, holy crap, like Roy Curry, one of the guys that I've been watching crush this contest since I was a teenager, is just like a nice guy and wants, I think he he enjoys that community.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's seen what he's gotten out of it, and you know, he's trying to like bring people into the fold and stuff.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there is that other side to the contest, you know, that I think a lot of us um don't quite think about.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to think about the competition thing in music as a negative because music is an artistic expressive form, and is may is it maybe the best way to think about music all the time?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like competitions, no.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: But when you set up a competition, it does what you just said.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: It helps people like, well, this is a contest.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I need to come out swinging with my best stuff.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna like sit down and like how can I take all of my best stuff and write a really cool arrangement of a tune?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Three passes, four passes through a tune, because that's typically what you have time for.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a challenge, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know this from a from a music perspective.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have to come up with three rounds through a common fiddle tune that take you on a journey, you know, and and show you that one, I'm really good at this instrument, and two, that I've got some like tricks that can keep you as the listener, like hooked in and and kind of listening the whole time.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a really cool, like fun attude in that way, you know.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then to see how how does my version of that stack up against Forrest Thurman or Eric Harden or Luke Lovejoy or any of these guys that are that are winning the contest.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, there's there I know that there's like kind of two sides of how people view this thing, but I'm squarely on the positive side.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten so much out of the the community and and just the act of doing these things that I was talking about inside of my arrangements that um yeah, I'm probably I'm probably gonna keep doing this for a while.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's great.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I love um you know, it's interesting.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: You we talk about competition as being um you know, in this world, like who's the best, who did the best today, whatever the thing is, right?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, on its face, sure, that's what it is, is who did the best job.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think uh I actually think it's interesting that it's kind of removed from the professional touring scene in a way.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's some overlap, obviously, but uh it doesn't they're not so connected that a that winning at Winfield is directly related to your commercial success as a recording artist or anything like that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um if it if it's connected at all.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Some people don't do anything professionally outside of competitions, right?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And in a way, that's actually really cool because one of the challenges I find with, you know, um like the IBM Awards sometimes is there's an implication that this is someone who is the best, or this is someone who is um whatever it means to win the award, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then there's the real life implications of uh commercial success from getting the award.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: You get the award and then you get opportunities from there.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So the competition is kind of this psychological thing, but it's also like literally competing for resources.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's people literally competing for I want to get a record deal, I want to get um booked, I want to get wherever this thing is, like you're literally competing for um the limited amount of resources in the genre.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that competition, I've seen that get a lot more negative in the uh professional world, either with the awards or just competitive with the people that you're, you know, touring parallel to, you know, these festivals and whatever it is, like trying to get a slot.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so in a way, removing it from that, removing it from, I mean, I know you you win money or guitars, and there are people that do so many competitions that they're kind of making a decent amount of money.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly that's a thing, but it's not it's not the same world of competing for like survival in the industry.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and it so in that way it actually like declaws the competition in a way that I find I find the competition in the real world sad, you know, because it's like, you know, we all want to do as well as we can.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's just hard that no, we can't all have the same gigs and the same opportunities.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it just it's more complicated.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: But it seems like in the contest world, uh, it's a little it's it's way easier for that to be good natured because it isn't, you know, if you don't win this contest, then you're not gonna, you know, you just always you can just sign up for another one.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can just keep signing up and you can keep showing up.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the whole experience.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: You're not barred from any part of the experience because of how it goes.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: One year, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: The next year is the new uh the chance for redemption.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which is maybe like part of the the cool thing about it and why I keep going back.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh man, I didn't get it last year.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, like, I I seriously, I love the the week after I get home from Winfield is one of the best weeks of the year because I can like really it's like that that transition period where it's like, okay, what did I do last week?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And like what are what how am I going to use that information to steer the next you know 365 days, you know what I mean?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um though, so I think uh yeah, it's uh it's much more positive in that way.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm in touch with all the contest guys throughout the year.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're talking to each other, we're goofing, we're sending each other messages and stuff.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't say that when I was active in like the IBM A scene as like a touring band, we weren't talking about the fallout of the IBM Awards and all that kind of stuff in the same way that I talked to people about Winfield.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you said, it's like a in in that way, it's like a um a competition for real world resources.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's a different, a much different thing that can get more negative, you know, if if you choose to engage with it that way.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas I still think that like I guess something that that you said is is like stirring some thoughts in my mind that like the you know, industry awards are actually like, you know, I'm carving out more space for myself in this world, and I'm I'm trying to occupy more space, I'm trying to take more resources, I'm trying to become more high profile and like you know, um make that impression upon the scene.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas like Winfield, you know, who won Winfield four years ago, Eli?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I could not possibly tell you.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like it's almost more like this like bragging rights kind of thing.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like like the winners, and this is almost, you know, we talk about this in the documentary, like when they're interviewing me and stuff, but like winning Winfield is more than just like me saying I'm better than all the other guitar players that showed up that day.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think anyone who knows me knows would know that that's like a sickening thought in my brain to even think, you know what I mean?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's that's not even true.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, winning Winfield is more about can I do all the stuff that I just said?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Can I show up?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can I be in a mindful state?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can I like use my meditative practice to guide me throughout the year to be calm enough and collected enough to show up at this thing, play the arrangements in a way that I feel happy about in a musical way, and then maybe get the number one title out of it, you know?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but all of those steps have to happen before you get the number one title, in my opinion.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to be mindful, you have to stick with every note, you have to like make the music happen.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're in my opinion, if you're not focused on the act of playing the music, if you're not focused on the the actual guitar side of things, then the number one thing will never happen.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and it just by the rules.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess actually now I'm curious about the rules are because I have a hunch about about something, but I actually don't know.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you said three or four passes around a tune, or there's, you know, like each round, I'm sure you play one tune or two tunes per round.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Two tunes.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: And is there a rule against improvisation, or is it um so you could improvise, I guess.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say from what I've watched, uh, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of improv improvisation going, and it also seems like it might not be super helpful.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you'd have to be improvising on a level truly to the point where it it appears to be a because because everything that I'm hearing when I watch these uh videos of people competing, it's like these are really fleshed out, well thought out, um, intricate, not always complex, I guess, but but not these are not just like wow, this person is really great playing over Salt Creek.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is a you're like you said before, you're you're there's kind of a narrative, you're telling a story, you're going somewhere with this.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't you can improvise, it sounds like, but it doesn't seem like that's super uh common.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think so, and I think largely because of what we were talking about with like the mind game, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, the the times where I'm improvising best are the times where I'm like uh in the flow state, you know what I mean?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like everything is out of the way.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm like, you know, like my mind is clear and I'm just completely plugged in to the music, you know.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the it and I'm sure you you've hit these spots.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like where where the musical material is being generated in your brain and comes out to your fingers immediately.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that sounds weird for people.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, well, isn't that what always happens?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, sometimes your brain is like, well, we could put our fingers over that pattern that we've played a million times that I saw, you know what I mean?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, which is not the same as like hearing uh a passage of music in your head and letting it come to the fingers.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Winfield, because of the stress of it, it's so hard that if you were to rely on that mechanism, the mind like could get in the way of that very easily.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you show up that day and you're there's no gas in the tank from an improvisational standpoint, like there's your arrangement, you're dead, you know?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah um, but if you show up with like a rough sketch of you know three kind of versions of of Fork and Deer that you're gonna play through, then I think you stand a much better chance.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I framed it that way, like Luke Lovejoy, Eric Harden, those guys, uh those two specifically I know incorporate improvisational elements into their arrangements so they don't play them the same way every time.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that like Eric specifically, I know has like a pretty like a solid framework, you know, like 75 to 80 percent of that thing just like really dialed in, and then 20, you know, is variable.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Luke, I think, improvised like the year that he won.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think he improvised all of it, which is insane.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, okay, okay, yes.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Carl Minor last year improvised all of it, which is insane.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Carl, you're insane, man.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: What's up with that?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you look at a guy like Carl Minor, and I I'm like, to me, it's like he's been training for this day his whole life because he's a he's a great started as a great contest guitar player, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've known about Carl since I was first getting into this scene.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's really good at the contest thing, and I know he arranges stuff, you know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: He has in the past like really dialed in note-for-note arrangements, but these days, for the last 20 years, he's been a like an in-demand studio musician in Nashville.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like um he uh he's got this ability to kind of like show up to a gig, hear what the parameters are, and then just like crush it, come up with something.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I heard him backstage before the final round last year, like writing the tunes that he was gonna play, you know, in the next five minutes.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, oh man, you know, yeah, like this.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, talk about he's under pressure consistently at a level that I've you know never experienced.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Just in the studio, time is money, you gotta you gotta play something right away that is you know, whatever it is, it's like that, yeah, he's been practicing for for that exact scenario.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fascinating.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love that um I mean, so it sounds like yeah, it sounds like there there is an element of improvisation at a certain level or a certain type of player.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's interesting to think you know, when when you're talking about what it would mean to win is not, you know, is not about being the best or not feeling like you're the best or having these kind of bragging rights of you know, there's some amount of that, but not bragging rights like now I can tell all these people how much better I am, then obviously that's not that's not what we're after.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I like the idea that it's it's a kind of a measure, and partially this is something you can probably perceive in yourself as you're doing it, like you can tell how successful you've been, but it's a little bit a measure of your ability to to uh operate at the level that you think you're able to, which means everything has to be in place.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not just that you have the best arrangement necessarily.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um it sounds like it's as much, if not more, the preparation and then the day of can you kind of keep a cool head about it?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Can you stay mindful?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Can you, you know, all these things?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you were to win, it would really be a measure of like wow, that day I was able to rise to the occasion in a in a really, you know, um otherwise tense environment, right?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever, which which that's the challenge of it, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: If if it really were just like who's just the best all the time, then it wouldn't I I don't know, it feels like that wouldn't really mean a whole lot because like, well, yeah, they're the best all year long then.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: If it's just who's we look at everything and we just say who do we like the most, then that doesn't really mean a whole lot.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: But if it has to be that day, then they really could be anyone because so many different variables and factors, anybody could be kind of could rise to the occasion in that, in that way.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which which again, you know, it's like this is really tearing down my my preconceived uh thoughts on this on this sort of thing.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: It what it doesn't change is uh how I would feel doing it to start out.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I've what I'm realizing is this mountain of resistance that I have uh to to participating in something like that uh doesn't nest it, it doesn't really come from an ideological disagreement with the existence of competition, which you know, I have my feelings about competition, but how I would feel, how how hard that would be for me, is not related to that.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually just that I'd be really nervous.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, just the very simple fact of like, well, what if I mess up?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: And what if I don't like what I play?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what if that means that then the judges don't like me?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And what if everyone laughs at me?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like all the classic things.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I know that the stakes are actually, in reality, extremely low.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like worst case scenario, I trip on the stairs and hit my head, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the true worst case scenario is I something outside of the competition.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: The competition, yes, no part of that could be the worst case scenario, but the experience of it, I mean, now I'm kind of curious.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's it feels a little bit masochistic to say this, but like maybe I need to like jump into what is the equivalent of my nightmare uh and and and try it at some point.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um that might be a couple years down the road.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it is an interesting, interesting idea, certainly.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, buddy, there's a there's a car from Columbus, Ohio that's always headed out west every September.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if you ever want to link up, you know, just let me know.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Are how many people are are competing at a level that's like, well, they just want to participate?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's no chance that they're you know, are people on the on the more beginner end of the spectrum just as a it's a fun thing to participate in?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is there that level?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So um at Rocky Grass, I even saw this this past weekend.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was a guy that I had taught at Blue Ridge guitar camp.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh Wally was his name, and and he was like, Hey man, I saw that I like saw that there was an open spot in the competition.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've been working up just some tunes.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like he had been playing, I think he was pretty new to like fiddle tune playing, and you know, like uh had had worked on some tunes recently.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like, I'm just gonna get up there so I can play them in front of people.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna see what and I think he knew that in to some degree this thing was about like kind of uh riding the line with your adrenal kind of response in the moment and and like being able to play your tunes, and and I thought that was inspiring as heck, man.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would say the same thing happens at Winfield every year.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that there's like half of the field that shows up is in that category, you know, and they cap the the number of contestants at Winfield to 40, and usually it's like 30 to 35 people will show up.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like 15, 16, 17 people that are there, like I think purely to just get up on stage and play through what everything we've been talking about, you know.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, can I show up this day and play the tunes in my way, not get in my way with like my my kind of physiological response to the situation and stuff like that?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's like a test of your metal kind of thing, yeah, you know.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I would say, yeah, I would say at least half of the people are in that category.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um somebody asked me this question this past weekend too.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how many people at the Rocky Grass competition were like, were like, you know, there to win, or like the the like top players.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that there was by my count, there were five that I was like, these guys clearly have played contests before, they've got the right style of arrangements to impress the judges, all that kind of stuff.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like there it was like half of the field, because 12 is what they cap Rocky Grass at.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's much smaller contest.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I would say the ratio is a little lower that way at Winfield, you know, it's like out of those 35 guys, there's probably six, seven, eight, nine, maybe ten, you know, that are like like the it could be any any player's game out of that pool of guys, you know.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's so fascinating.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's interesting.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think um I like that that that uh for the people who are participating at a level that is for the experience or for what you're describing, right?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: To kind of put yourself through that that kind of trial.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I like that it sounds like in that way you're as much a part of that community as whoever's winning.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like there's uh again in the in the real professional touring world, if that's the real world of of kind of competition, right?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's not that it's not that by definition there's good bands and bad bands and they don't mix and and whatever, but like there's definitely a world where how many times have we played at festivals where it's a really it's a big festival, and that means that you go to your green room and you say and they say, This is your green room, and you see all the other bands, you say, Okay, this is where we are, and you realize that the headliner has their own green room, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you're not allowed to go to that green room, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or or um, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is, you know, there's that you can tell pretty quickly professionally, like, okay, I'm at a certain level, and this is this is what I'm worth, you know, financially to this festival, this gig or something.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's a very real thing, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we've I've I'm sure we've been on both sides of that of being um, you know, you don't get a green room, or you're the one you're in the band that is the headliner, whatever.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, we're in the same community as the band that plays at 10 a.m.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: as the one that plays the closing slot, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: They were in the same community, certainly, but there is more of a tendency that that is um uh there's it's not uh necessarily all access.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that you can just go up to anybody necessarily and say, hey, we're basically colleagues, because you may you may not be in a sense, you know.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't walk up to Baylor Fleck and just kind of talk about our professional lives uh on a one-to-one.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's not how that works.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um unless you happen to be personally really good friends with Bayla Fleck, right?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which I'm not.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um Bayla, college.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Baylor, what's the deal?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so but but it seems like in the competition world, like the uh membership in that community is the showing up in that way where it's like you may not have any plans to win.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but but there's kind of a it seems like there's a reciprocal respect for just participating in that way.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Just anyone who's willing to try that uh is on that that fundamental level of like, you know, whatever kind of courage that takes, you know, to make that choice.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've never thought about it so much in those terms, like you just said, but that's absolutely true.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I showed up to Winfield the first time, I think I was a sophomore in college, but that would have been 2007 or something like that.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at the time I had a professor at college who was friends with Alan Shad, and he was like, My buddy Alan's gonna be out there, he's one of the major players, but like don't be scared by that because he'll show you around, you know.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I got out there, I found, I like contacted Alan Shad.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: He like literally showed me around.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, This is where Steve Kaufman and all the folks camp, and like this is where the good jams are, and you know, all here, here's here's a group of guys, you might be able to find a rhythm player out of one of them, you know.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I uh uh oddly enough, Alan backed me up in the contest that year.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a picture of me playing my crappy version of old Joe Clark with Alan Shad in the rhythm player seat, which is like one of my favorite pictures of all time.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Alan, for doing that.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, it's it like I felt it.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Even even Alan, who's one of the top guys at that time, I think he was two-time winner.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: He hadn't won his third one yet, but immediately welcomed me in because it's like this kid's got the you know, the medal to like at least show up to this thing.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: He drove a thousand miles to you know to show up to this thing and and get up on stage like the rest of us.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I made some of my greatest friends in the scene doing that.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think everything you said is is totally true that way.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, thanks to to Alan Shad, Robert Schaefer, uh the Kessengers, uh, Matt Lindsay, all of those guys early on were the ones that like I had no idea who they were.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: They had no idea who I was, but I showed up and just started asking them questions and hanging around, and they like brought me in like it was family.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, uh everything you said, I think is totally true about that scene.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Cool, that's amazing.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so uh now this is this episode is just gonna be uh me interviewing you about about uh about Rocky Grass and uh and Windfield, I guess.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Unless we want to go somewhere else.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm curious, um, so what you were actually playing, uh are you for how many contests are you doing this year?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you did Rocky Grass, you're gonna do Windfield.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what else have you done or are doing?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, where we we sit in this this like place in time.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, those of you that are listening to this podcast 50 years from now, the landscape is much different.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: But um there are like four or five contests that are kind of like worth going to every season, and they're all spread out across the entire continental United States, so it's impossible unless you've just got infinite time and resources to kind of devote to it, it's impossible to get to all of them.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the ones that I know still exist.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um Robin Kessinger runs one for the West Virginia uh state competition, Texas still has their state competition, Arizona, um Kentucky still does a state competition, uh Rocky Grass.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um trying to think.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, is there one up in uh I think it's either Wisconsin or Ms.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Minnesota?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Minnesota, I think, actually has a state competition that's still going.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's like five or six kind of like smaller or regional ones that I that still kind of exist, and then Winfield, the the big show.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone still kind of sees it that way, you know.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um back in the day, it was kind of like there was like a triple crown, in my opinion.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: There was like um the road to Winfield, which was Merlefest, Rocky Grass, and then Winfield.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Merlefest doesn't have the competition anymore, which is a bit of a shame.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, so Rocky Grass, I think, is kind of like the the one that you do, you know, to to kind of prep for Winfield, either that or one of the state competitions.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: So did you play the same tunes?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like are you are these the arrangements and your your set?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're your this is basically in a way a rehearsal for the basics.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone that was at Rocky Grass saw what I'm gonna play at Winfield.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: They saw a crappier version, hopefully, of what I'm gonna play at Winfield.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you were kind of sandbagging.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: You were kind of like, you don't, you know, you don't want to you want to let anybody know what they're in for at Winfield.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I th I threw the ending on that that second round tune just to kind of you know leave it, leave it for Winfield.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's great.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, do you find uh practicing for this stuff?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I'm sure I'm sure you there's a a difference in how you practice it because in your you know professional life, if you're on a gig, you're more likely to be improvising a lot more, or you know, you're not playing a tune four times in a row as your performance necessarily, you're not yeah, that you don't have the Haze Solo show that often as far as not quite yet.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, um I'm sure there are a couple of kind of technical benefits to practicing stuff that that lends itself to other things that you do, but how do you how do you structure practice for for this sort of thing?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think um I I liken it to more of the techniques that I was taught to use from like my classical music curriculum in college, you know.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it because it is like a set piece of music, right?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: After I well, if I go straight.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the beginning, it's almost like you have to be a composer first.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: You have to come up with an arrangement.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, so like if we're talking about that's a totally different part of the process, but like that took me six months, one year just to come up with my four arrangements, you know, just like every day sitting down.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote them out in my uh notation software just to kind of like have the idea there.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would usually start with something that I heard recorded in a voice memo, and then like whenever I got back to my notation software, I would document it just to kind of have a thing, you know.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that was like the first part of the process was getting that stuff out, and that was like six months.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of like, like I said, a related but totally separate process from the practice of it.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then once the pieces are set, my practice usually uh ends up being like a I love to do this thing where I wake up in the morning, I drink my first cup of coffee, and then I come to the practice room and cold play my arrangements.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so like full speed, like the like this might be my that's really interesting.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Is that to kind of simulate the the feeling of all those things that come up in a performance space?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like my muscles feel crunchy right now, my brain is a little foggy because I just woke up, I've got a little bit of caffeine.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I just want to see like under the worst conditions, what can my body do with this arrangement?
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then if I notice that there was something like glaringly wrong with what I did after one of those, you know, I'll usually play through all four as if I'm on stage, you know, I'll treat it like I'm uh, you know, like no stopping, all that kind of stuff.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I'll um maybe in for a half hour, just run sections after that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what were the difficult sections here or transitions between sections, and how can I maybe clean those up?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this is, you know, that process is is 80% about just being able to like technically execute the things that I've come up with for myself, but then 20% that's an opportunity for me, and I've done this multiple times over the last four years, to just tweak a section.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know what?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I keep hitting this one wrong.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's actually something a little easier technically that I could do here to fill that space and give myself a better chance of executing that to actually make it to the real flashy thing that I want to highlight later, you know?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: The thing that, yeah, the the thing you're gonna do successfully is gonna sound better than the whatever might be the better idea, I guess.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you're not gonna hit it, it'd be better if you played what if exactly.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm not gonna hit it, it's a terrible idea, right?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Jake Workman might be able to grab that idea, you know, but like just because I wrote it on the paper doesn't mean that I should be able to execute it, right?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that word should is kind of a I I hate that word in general.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think like, what is should?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: What should we be doing?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're all like different, you know what I mean?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, so like I try to not be too married to anything that I compose that way.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um because in the practice room is where that organic uh kind of like um ability will will start to show up.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what can I actually do?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Even though I heard this in my head and saw this on the paper, what can my hands actually accomplish on this guitar?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'll do a half hour to an hour of that every day.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'll play the arrangements and then it's like half hour to 45 minutes or whatever of just kind of nitpicking on them.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, my triplets were a little rough on that one section.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: So just you know, can I get that section like really, really nice or something like that?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then at the end of that, I play them all again.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just kind of like after I've workshopped them, after I'm warmed up now and I feel a little more comfortable, how do they sound?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's actually what's probably going to happen on the day of the contest.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I will have gotten up, I will have done everything that I just did.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'll play the arrangements, I'll nitpick a little bit, and then I'll play them again.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll be nice and warmed up.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's almost like I'm trying to replicate the process of what I'm going to do that day at the contest, that morning.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know if this is the right approach or not.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're a psychologist or something out there, tell me if I'm on the right track.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: But but I just feel like the more that I can replicate a routine that I am likely to uh do at the contest itself, like if I can do that every day in some kind of like contained fashion, then that puts me in a more comfortable mindset the day of the competition.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fascinating.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: When you are thinking about a warm-up, you know, you're doing what you just described.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then how much are you you know, like what's your headspace like?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or or or I guess physically, what are you doing like in the 10 minutes before you walk up?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Are you actually playing at that point, or are you specifically not playing?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: What, you know, because I feel like my experience has only been on stage in this sort of situation, you know, where like the varying levels of pressure.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I've gone through periods where I had a long warm-up routine, or this is what I need to do to get ready to be able to play whatever the set list is on stage.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be this long list of things, you know, including what I'm eating, meditation, uh uh warm-up of my instrument, all this stuff.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I have also gone through phases where I would do absolutely nothing.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: I would not put any thought into, you know, if you've played the same set over and over again, I said, what happens if I just completely wing it?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: I first time I take the instrument out of the case is for sound check, then it goes back in the case and then walk on stage and you just play.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a there was a mindset that was uh yeah, whatever.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna throw it out there.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it would be the best version of the experience, just saying, This is what I got, and and I'm not gonna overthink it, right?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that that middle ground between really prepared and no preparation was where I think I always got stuck was do a little bit of warm-up, but it really just enough to get myself nervous, right?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just warm up enough to realize how not warmed up I am, and then go and stay nervous.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes I try to figure out okay, I want to be physically uh ready, which involves stretching and warming up, right?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Technically, but it's always that last like 20, 30 minutes or 10 or 20 minutes, whatever it is, where okay, am I letting my hands get cold?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I'm playing, am I just kind of overthinking it?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: So so what does that look like for you, like right before going on?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: How much of that is is playing?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right before going on.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: If we're talking about 30 to 45 minutes before going on stage, I am not playing.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am trying not to play.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because if if we go back to like that practice routine that I've got every day, I've gotten up every day.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And no joke, man, at this point, when I wake up, I can usually play through my arrangements in a way that I'm happy with cold.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Great, cool.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, like to me, that says, like logically in the back of my mind, that like if I let my hands get a little cold in that hour before the contest, it's not gonna be the end of the world.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: And really the thing I need to be focusing on during that last half hour, 45 minutes is breathing because I know the thing that the that's gonna get me.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is like, you know, just like data I've collected from playing these contests the last three years.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: If there is one thing that's gonna get me for the contest, it's gonna be my ability to control the adrenaline right before I go on stage.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I commit the last 45 minutes to a half hour to almost just like a full-on meditation.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I usually try to like get away from where the contest is or like go off to the side somewhere and just kind of be alone.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: And usually when you're a guy sitting there with his eyes closed and in kind of a you know, prostrate kind of position or whatever, people aren't that inclined to come up and mess with you unless they're just jerks.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if and even in that instance, I I love the opportunity to uh practice meditation while dealing with like some sort of external factor like that.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, 45 minutes, half hour leading up to the contest, I am not playing, I am exclusively breathing, I'm just trying to center in on that whole thing.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I will do though, about 20 minutes before, you know, half hour to 20 minutes before I go on stage, is in my mind, and you'll love this, visualize every arrangement note for note, from the beginning to the end.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, can I start that arrangement in my mind and follow it completely through in my mind?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, can I hear, you know, my blackberry rag note for note, you know, all the way to the end?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that's been a bigger that practice, and I do that during my meditations at home sometimes too, but that practice has been invaluable, man.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's uh um just the ability to kind of cultivate awareness and cultivate your ability to choose to stay with something or choose to place your mind somewhere, as opposed to your mind being taken somewhere by an external factor, right?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, to me, that was the whole game of meditation when I started getting into it, anyways.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Once I realized that it was a a practice to um regain control of your mind, um that's become the most powerful thing that I use before the contest in that in that kind of dead time, you know.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I know that was a long-winded answer, but but the that's great, yeah.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: The hour leading up to the contest is about visualization, centering myself, getting out of the um, you know, the the kind of like you were saying, that jittery practice mode where it's like I'm gonna warm up enough just to freak myself out to be like, oh, if my hands aren't aren't good, you know, what am I gonna do?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and cultivate the a good mind set.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fascinating.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I um I've been noticing uh just thinking back of my experience, like you know, college auditions or performances that were they were big enough that it it would it I got nervous, or at a certain whatever, at a certain point when I was nervous for all performances, or um even now when I record these practice logs, I try to start each one playing something, and I'm trying not to over-prepare for them.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I just try to do some improvising, right?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I can still sense when I'm a little bit tense or I'm a little bit nervous.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, ah, is this am I gonna get to the end of this tune?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have to do this all over again?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and I've been trying to parse like what's the best way to prepare for that that feels um not like doing an hour's worth of takes just just so I can get to the start of this video, right?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and in you describing that, being first of all, practicing uh the same way every time, warming up at the same time, the same way every time, so that you have that same experience that day, getting yourself physically prepared, and and then it's almost as if you do all that warming up and then you still have the benefit of again, it doesn't sound like you're winging it.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is very, you're mentally um you're you're you're putting a lot of effort into um you know putting your mind where you want it to be for this experience, but you kind of still get the ex the get the benefit of uh of going in cold, which which sounds counterintuitive, but it actually in some ways, like in like when I was describing doing that on stage, I think the benefit of that was the only thing I could have on my mind is just, well, this is what I'm supposed to play right now.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I'm you know, it's not um how do my hands feel?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Am I ready to do this?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, it's not the questions, it's just the thing, right?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it seems like actually you're you're doing a little bit of both in a in a cool way.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: You're getting the the best of both worlds because you are physically prepared.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that was, you know, my misstep was you know, roll out of bed in the hotel and go to the gig.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, okay, mindset, great.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: In a way, you know, there was a very single-pointed thing.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Physically, you know, it's like, okay, let's not play something too fast to start with, because actually I'm not warmed up.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, but I but I like that combination of things.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: I I wonder too, sometimes, um, you know, that trying things totally cold first.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how many it's the same thing in the studio?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: That first take on a record uh is kind of magical.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: So in a way, you don't want to overthink that.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: You just want to say, let's just do it, right?
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes you get the that take, and then each successive take is worse, you know, for a little while.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: The diminishing returns, like we've all been there.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: It happens all the time, and and it sounds like there's that potential.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: So again, it's like, yeah, you kind of have to, you have to have had all those experiences, and then you have to seem like you have to take that and say, okay, what can I line all of this stuff up so that when I go to hit the ball, everything's kind of taken care of.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fascinating.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: It it was all and it was all data driven, like you just kind of said too, right?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I had I think I had to do some contests.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had to go to Winfield and and do this before I even knew what to do most effectively for myself after, you know?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it it took some took some doing.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm interested in doing a contest, you know, it's like just get your arrangements out and and go go try it.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do do the quick and dirty version of it.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just get the arrangements out and go have fun and and try the experience out and then try to figure out how to do it best for yourself.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's it's like you know, that video that David just released recently, you know, about like like you just gotta rip the band-aid off, you gotta go to the jam session, you'll never be ready uh if you're waiting to be ready, you know what I mean?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would I would highly suggest that for anyone that's you know watching and or listening to this who's interested in a contest, like how do I get my foot in the door, write some fiddle tune arrangements, that's step one, and then just go do it, you know?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can pedantically pull your process apart like I have, and then you can have an hour-long podcast episode with your friend talking about it.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: Which I hope that doesn't, you know, doesn't add any kind of psychological turmoil to your already, you know, already I'm sure you're already spending a lot of time kind of seriously, bro.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: This out of all of it, you know.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: I learned stuff about my process just having this conversation with you over the last hour.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, and that's how the Winfield documentary thing has been too, because those guys they've been very respectful.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm in the space of the contest, they're just kind of there'll be cameras 20 feet away, you know, and they're taking shots and doing stuff, but they're not like asking me questions or getting up in my business too much during the contest.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then after we had some pretty reflective conversations, and I I learned something every time about myself, just because a smart person like you is on the other end asking a question and kind of curious about it, you know.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, thanks for being curious about this, dude, because I think I I actually learned some stuff about my process here today.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's awesome.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it would have reminds me, yeah, of course, um this is the same advice that we give people about going to a jam or um you know, taking lessons or anything that you kind of feel like you need a certain level of preparation before you do it, you know, um, where you really don't know what you need until you go and find out.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and I've heard the described as being a glutton for punishment.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there's I don't want to sugarcoat it, but there is the reality that getting out of your comfort zone and trying something new while it is the best thing for you, by definition involves some some pain, right?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like you can and can't there's some expectation that you have, and then you don't meet that, or it doesn't go the way you thought it did, or you know, whatever.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's there can be awkward moments when you meet people the first time.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's all this stuff, and and that is that is the main ingredient of these experiences.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um you kind of have to, you really have to look inside and and think when this hurts, right?
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: When it hurts that I messed up my arrangement, or I go to a jam and I don't know the right songs, or whatever thing happens that you think disqualifies you from participating because it sucks, you know, it just like feels awful.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have to try to then be honest with yourself.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, does that is that painful because it's life-threatening?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, obviously not.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is it painful because I had a certain idea of what I thought, who I thought I was?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: And this is challenging that.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe my identity isn't quite what I thought it was, which in which case that's kind of great, you know, uh, if you're willing to look in inside and say, like, I had this big idea that I was so great at this thing that I do, and then it turns out I'm not able to do it in this circumstance, or you know, whatever it is.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're faced with the reality of this is what it is, right?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I thought I knew a bunch of tunes and I went to a jam and I didn't know any of the tunes.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why have been why have I been doing all this?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: You you kind of it becomes so dramatic so quickly.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've had all these experiences and it sounds like a man who's uh speaking from the experience of the yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and so you kind of really have to look at it as um, is this yeah, is the is this really serious um from a from a health and safety perspective, which which uh basically never is.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: It almost never is a real problem in that way, in a way that anyone should be concerned.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: It is just confronting your ego, um, and and then confronting why am I doing this in the first place?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because what we described in the beginning of this podcast or early on in this podcast, um, the real benefit of these experiences of playing music with other people or going to these competitions, your favorite parts of these that you're describing is the community, the people that you've met, and kind of the shared experience of doing this difficult thing.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: And at no point did you in this whole process talk about how badly you want to win, which is not to say that you don't, you're not that's not a part of this process, but it's not it's not the long-lasting, meaningful, you know, experience.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: The same thing goes for going to a jam.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're not really there to impress people, obviously.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so when when these things happen and your ego is kind of bruised by your negative experience, to me, what happens is I realize, oh, I thought I was doing this one thing.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I was going to have fun with my friends.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, I thought I was going to share music with this audience.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when my ego is bruised, I realize, oh, I was showing off.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was trying to impress people.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was trying to tell people via my musicality and saying, look, we should be friends because I'm able to do this, and so I'm on your level.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or I was trying to impress, you know, my favorite banjo player who's in the audience at the festival.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, so and so will think this is cool.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then you crash and burn.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't realize that's what I was trying to do until you have until you're hurt.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then you say, Ah, I wasn't doing what I thought I was.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't in this for what I thought I was.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be such a powerful transformative moment.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you are a glutton for punishment and you're willing to look at that and say, what a what a blessing to be shown the the truth of how I feel about this, so I can reflect and kind of recalibrate.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can I can prepare differently to do these things.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: Man, the trip to Winfield last year for me was worth every dollar that I spent because of what you just said.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I learned so that first year, I thought I learned, oh wow, I'm not as bad as I thought I was.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: I actually made the finals, I placed second.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is crazy.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my mind the next year was like, I should be able to win this thing.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's that nasty word again.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I was prepping for the wrong thing.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: I got to Winfield, I made the finals, which was awesome.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of crashed out a little bit.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't play as well as I could have.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: Carl Minor also happened to show up that day, which will throw a wrench at anyone's plane.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and guess what?
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: We got backstage, and and I remember the moment plain as day.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll remember this for the rest of my life.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the woman that was passing out the awards, they kind of do this dramatic thing when they collect all the finalists backstage, you know, where they put you in a circle and they go around and they're kind of like, and you know, fifth place goes to Hayes Griffin, you know, and then they'll just like you know, be scanning around.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, like when she said my name first, you know, and and that's the way that I took it was that my points scored the lowest out of the finalists in the judges last year.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: She said that.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: So my heart sank.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my God, I was the worst out of out of all five of these guys standing right here.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: How embarrassing, you know what I mean?
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like, like I get back to the hotel room and I was kind of I was like peeved off, you know what I mean?
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I was not in a good mental state the rest of the day.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what I realized is that I was being a big baby.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: I like the the whole idea of it was what you just said.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was given a blessing that day because it's like, guess what?
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because of who showed up that day and because of how my stuff sounded against theirs, the people that just happened to be sitting in that trailer next to the stage thought that that my stuff was in last.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Place.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not like a total value judgment of who I am or what I am.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a um, it's just how the cards shook out that day.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: How they how they landed that day.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think the greatest lesson that I took from that was that, oh my God, I lost my way.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I should have been focused on the music the whole time.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: If I was focused on remaining with my breath, like feeling how my body was interacting with this stuff in the moment, you know, putting the music forward, like taking that joy that I have for being a part of this community and just kind of like focusing on those things, that's actually more of a winning formula than it is to like really get down on yourself because, oh God, I didn't do the, I didn't win.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't do the thing, you know.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I think shame and embarrassment, and that's just like my own personal journey had a lot to do with that.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like my dad was a coach, my brother is a high-level athlete, all these kind of things.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, it's it's something to be uh like losing is not a good thing, right?
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but actually in that moment it was a total blessing because I I realized at that point in time like where my mindset had gone wrong in the process and got back to myself afterward.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's really that's really amazing.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what a uh kind of what a great tool for um realizing something that I think any of us can can apply to any part of our life, but there's not too many situations where it you're kind of summoning that experience.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the thing, by showing up, you're inviting that experience because no matter no matter what, you're gonna have some experience of um, you know, your identity being challenged in some way or or whatever it is, you know.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I think at any time any of us could have that same realization about any aspect of our life.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but but again, kind of it sounds like you're a glutton for punishment, you know, that you're I'm a glutton for punishment.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: Even when, even when seemingly it sounds like you weren't always, you know, or or at different parts of the experience, that's the wave that you ride, which is such a that makes it so tricky, is that like at various parts of this experience you you do have that mindset, and then you can be taken out of it.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like it's really, you know, at no point is the point of the meditate meditation and the practice to ensure that at all times you will be perfect.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's like, can I write the shift?
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: Can I can I pivot?
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: Can I turn around?
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: Can I, you know, and I find that to be the most challenging thing is it's the the you know, kind of the lost cause of like, well, I did all this work and now I'm I'm pissed at myself.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, if I give all that up now and I start being nice to myself, what uh what was the point of that whole thing then?
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you know, like you don't want to let go of it, you don't want to let go of it, you don't want to, and it really is the only way forward is just like, wait a minute, all right, let me just take a moment, you know, how hard is that to do?
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: Really hard, but but that's to me, that's like the the highest skill that I could achieve in any in any capacity, is that.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think uh it's really cool to to hear your experience of of having that happen and and having that like really help you in your in your journey to continue doing this, but also just in your life.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's cool to hear experiences where um it's not just a suggestion, it's uh, hey, this happened and it was great.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: This was awesome that this happened this way.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't tell you uh enough about how this experience has improved my life in general, just like my outlook and giving people grace and giving myself grace.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I have more trouble with that than I do other people, honestly, is like forgiving yourself more, you know.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and like uh and and this will be my closing thought, you know.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was sitting on stage in the second round at Rocky Grass this past weekend, and I get to the very last B part of Southern Flavor, my first arrangement, and I short circuited.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: My hand didn't go where it was supposed to go, and I stopped for about two quarter notes.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, I smiled because I knew what had happened.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't r summon the rest of the arrangement at that point in time, but I knew what had happened.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I smiled and I improvised my way to the end, got out of it, and then like because I knew what had happened, it was like I my mind lost the thread for a minute, but it's okay, you know?
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I got to my second arrangement and crushed it, note for note.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what I mean?
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like that's to me, that's the power of what we just described.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I hadn't been meditating and if I hadn't been been thinking about it and framing it the way we just said over the last year, um, that hiccup could have completely derailed the train for the rest of the round.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it could have meant like the spiral into self-judgment and like I failed, I just screwed up in front of a thousand people on the main stage at Rocky Grass, you know, like that, you know, how embarrassing, right?
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not how I take it at all.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I hope anyone listening to this or anyone that saw that um can know it for what it was.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was me um actually summoning something that I've really worked hard on.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was proud of myself in that moment for just being able to like smile, you know what I mean, and and like keep going.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because what else what else are you supposed to do in life, you know?
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: At what point is the best suggestion to give up, you know?
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's really great.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, folks, I hope you enjoyed uh in this as much as I did.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is uh this to me is the best use of the podcast, is just uh, you know, weekly lessons uh and advice and uh guidance from Hayes, you know, which I am receiving at no charge.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you're interested in uh in more of this great information from Hayes, you can find him uh as he will describe various places online.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can find me at haze griffin.club.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's my guitar club.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to hop on some Zoom calls with me every every week and ask me of why I screwed up that arrangement at Rocky Grass in the second round, you can sign up for the guitar club.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can also check out my YouTube channel, uh youtube.com forward slash haze griffin.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's H-A-Y-E-S-G-R-I-F-F-I-N.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, we've got all sorts of cool collaborations coming out there.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Videos with Eli, videos with David Benedict, videos with Marcel, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: So um Eli, where can the folks find you?
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can find me, Eli Gilbert Guitar, on YouTube, uh, among other places, though.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you're at the Flat Picking Podcast, I suppose you're interested in the guitar playing.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, and as we get a little closer, uh for full transparency, we're recording this before any of the episodes have been released.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so we are we are uh within a couple days of this recording, releasing the first episode of the podcast.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so there are a couple things we need to get in line, but there will be places where you can leave comments, ask questions, feel free to do so, and and in theory, in future, we will be responding to and uh giving answers to those questions.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we'll see.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, check out the description or the uh show notes for any of the platforms that you're checking this out on, and uh you'll get any of the relevant information of any of the stuff we've mentioned.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_02: But otherwise, folks, that's gonna do it for now.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_02: This has been another exciting episode of the flat picking podcast.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, folks.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_02: We'll uh we'll see you next time.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Catch you down the line.