Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / Wineville Chicken Coop Murders

Transcript

Wineville Chicken Coop Murders · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: In March nineteen twenty eight, nine year old Walter Collins
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: left his home in Los Angeles to go see a movie,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: but he never returned. His disappearance set off a massive
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: search and exposed deep failures inside the Los Angeles Police Department,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: and also pulled his mother into a public nightmare. She
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: never escaped. As investigators chased false leads and forced quick answers,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: a serial killer was quietly operating on a remote ranch
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: just outside the city. What followed became one of the
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: most disturbing true crime cases in California history. This is
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the story of the Wineville Chicken Coop murders.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and Grim.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: A true crime podcasting. Following material intended more mature audience.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: You gotta be leery of those people that live on ranches.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I think you do.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I I was just editing my heart out this weekend,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and so when i'm editing, I just usually watch something
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: because it's a bit boring and tedious. And I was
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: watching just a ton of true crime episodes, and the
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: amount of just shit that went down on ranches is
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: kind of alarming.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Actually, well, I think it's not that people who own
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: or live or operate on ranches are the lawless people.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: It's the land can become lawless because it doesn't really
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: have all the eyes on it, you know what I mean.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I guess and I'm not saying all people that own
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of land are terrible people, but I mean,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I guess that opportunity for them to be is there.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, technically speaking, we live on a ranch. Technically speaking, yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: we have a little tiny hobby farm. We don't like
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: we we're what renting a quarter acre half an acre
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: and we have our little chicken coop. We're on the
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: edge of a hay field. There's deer and coyotes that
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: run around outside our fence and stuff.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I would love to have a ranch one day.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: So what's that saying about me that says.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: You need to start saving your money because gosh darn,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: those are expensive pieces of land.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, land is not cheap. Nothing is cheap nowadays.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: No, it's not. It seems like everything's just so expensive.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: But hey, just do what you do, and yeah, keep
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: enjoying yourself. And if you really want to enjoy yourself,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: one way you can do. That is by signing up
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: over on Patreon and supporting our show, you get exclusive
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes stuff. You get an exclude episode that
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: comes out at the end of every month, which is
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: coming up in just a few days, a whole new
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: episode exclusive to Patrios.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Oh cool. And it literally is about like a cup
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: of coffee a month. It's not people. I know people
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: think it's super expensive to sign up on there, but
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it's not too too bad.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: It's not. You basically buy us a cup of coffee
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and you get the exclusive access, just like we have
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: with Casey Barnes and also with Sherry Harmison. They both
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• 3:29
  Speaker 2: The scenes that good good cough.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: That good good as I'd like to say that, yes,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: you're right.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Before we dive in this episode, I just wanted to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: touch on one thing. So we have Spotify comments that
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: come in, and someone did a Spotify comment that I
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: just thought was hilarious.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, I've actually got it in front of me here,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: so Abbie wrote. I work with offenders in rehabilitation and
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: one of the things we ask the guys when they
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: try and say they were drunk, blacked out drunk or
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: high or whatever is how how out of it do
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: you have to be to make out with your grandma?
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Like full tongue. Their responses really hit home the notion
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: that no matter how out of it you are, you
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: still have choices, and that is hilarious. They commented that
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: on the seventy two minutes of Hell the Air and
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: or Cut episode that we recently did, and that is genius.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Oh I was blacked out. I don't remember doing that. Okay,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: So if you don't remember murdering someone, say, or you know,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulting someone in that case, would you make sure
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: that you don't go and make out with your grandma? Well?
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Of course I would never. Well then why would you
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: do these things?
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I just felt like that. They because, yeah, right away,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I could never do something like that,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: like would I could be completely out of my mind
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: and I wouldn't do that. So then okay, then why
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: did you do this?
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: You knew, you know, you're able to still kind of
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: be in there and know a little bit what you're doing.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, So it just it collapses that notion entirely, and
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I love that, So thank you for that comment. That's hilarious.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I love that I did actually laugh out loud. That
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: was a good one.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: You actually laughed out loud when you told me about
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: that comment too, so chuckled.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was chuckling.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Chuckling a little bit of a raffle, I guess. But anyways,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: are you interested in what we have to talk about today?
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: A chicken coop murder?
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: I sure am?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: You sure are?
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Do you want me to get into our little prelude,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: our intro that we're doing, Hm, let's do it. Also,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what do you guys think of this intro
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that we've been trying out. We got the intro at
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: the very beginning, and then we've been doing this prelude
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: where I kind of build up the story a little
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: bit more for you guys, I'm curious as to what
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: you think of it. I'm still trying it out, making
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: sure that it works with the show, So if you
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: have thoughts on it, let us know. I know we've
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: had some comments of people saying, oh, you're giving away
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: a little too much in the beginning, so I'm trying
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: to dial that back a bit this time and not
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: give away too much, but give away just enough.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's see how it goes okay.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: In the late nineteen twenties, Los Angeles was growing faster
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: than almost any city in the country. Housing developments spread outwards,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: farmlands disappeared, and Hollywood was being born. Families arrived daily,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: drawn by the steady work and the promise of stability.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Newspapers described the region as modern, safe, and full of opportunity.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Behind that image, though the city was struggling to keep up.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: The Los Angeles Police Department was overstretched and understaffed. Detectives
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: carried very heavy caseloads. Internal corruption scandals had begun to
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: damage public trust, and city officials and newspaper editors demanded
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: fast results, especially in cases involving children. Unsolved crimes were
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: becoming political problems, not just police failures. Only months earlier,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: in fact, the kidnapping and murder of twelve year old
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Marian Parker had horrified the nation. Her case left parents
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: very fearful and angry. It also placed enormous pressure on
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: law enforcement. Every missing child that followed was treated as
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: a potential catastrophe, another high profile failure that was something
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: department it just could not afford, and beyond the city limits.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Conditions well they were very different. Rural communities remained isolated
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: and very lightly policed, chicken ranches and citrus grows with
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: dirt roads stretching out for miles. Neighbors lived very far apart.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Complaints were slow to be investigated, and outsiders came and
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: went without much notice. Now, these areas existed in a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: bit of a blind spot between city police and county authorities.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: It was the kind of environment where unusual behavior could
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: go unnoticed, and well it did. During nineteen twenty eight,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: disturbing reports began arriving from across southern California. Children disappeared,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: parents received strange letters. Witnesses described boys traveling with unfamiliar adults.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: A gas station attendant even reported seeing what looked like
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: a dead child wrapped in newspaper. Farmers complained about violent
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: behavior in a remote poultry ranch, but none of these
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: reports seemed connected to one another. Each was investigated briefly
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: and with not much evidence or much to go on,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: they were simply filed away individually. Meanwhile, inside the LAPD,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: frustration was building. Detectives were chasing hundreds of leads with
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: little success. Superiors demanded progress, and reports demanded answers. Families,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: of course, well, they demanded results, and in some cases,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: finding a solution to a case quickly became more important
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: than actually solving it correctly. Now. At that time, a
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: dangerous man was moving quietly through its fractured system. On
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: an isolated ranch east of la far from major patrol
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: routes and public scrutiny. A predator was operating almost unnoticed.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: He exploited the gaps between jurisdictions and relied on that distance.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: By the summer of nineteen twenty eight, several investigations were
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: beginning to unravel all at once. A mother was losing
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: faith in the police, and two families were receiving letters
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: that made no sense. A teenager was living in terror
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: on a rural farm, and investigators were left scratching their heads.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: None of them yet realized how closely their lives were
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: about to collide. Within months, these scattered cases would merge
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: into one of the most disturbing criminal investigations in California's history,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: exposing institutional failure, abuse of power, and crimes that had
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: been allowed to go on for far too long. And
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: it all began with a nine year old boy walking
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: towards a movie theater and never coming home. Now, with
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: all that said and done, let's get into the heart
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of the story. By the late nineteen twenties, Southern California
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: was experiencing a very rapid growth. Agriculture remained a major industry,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: whi all the movie or should I say motion picture
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: based industry had turned Los Angeles into an international center
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: for film production. New housing developments expanded across the region,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: and thousands of people moved into the city each year
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: looking for work. Neighborhoods such as Lincoln Heights, Mount Washington,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: and surrounding districts became increasingly populated by working class families.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: With this growth, though, there came new challenges. Crime rates
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: increased alongside the new population density. The Los Angeles Police
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Department or LAPD, was facing internal problems, including allegations of
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: corruption and poor oversight. Several scandals had damaged public confidence
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: in the department, and senior officers were under pressure to
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: demonstrate effectiveness in high profile cases. Public concern for child
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: safety was already heightened in early nineteen twenty eight. In
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: December nineteen twenty seven, for example, the kidnapping and murder
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: of twelve one of year old Marian Parker had received
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: extensive national coverage, and the case left many families afraid
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: and very distrustful of strangers. Newspapers continued to reference this
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Parker case well into the following year, and disappearances involving
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: children were treated as major news. By March nineteen twenty eight.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: The LAPD was operating in a very difficult environment. Investigators
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: were expected to produce results, and produce them extremely quickly,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: especially in cases involving these children, and failures were widely
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: criticized in press and unresolved cases while they were seen
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: as evidence of incompetence. Police leadership, including Chief James Davis,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: faced increasing scrutiny from both the public and city officials.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: It was within this context of a growing city public
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: anxiety over violent crimes, and a police department under intense
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: pressure that the disappearance of nine year old Walter Collins
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: had occurred now. Walter Conrad Collins was born in September
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen, and he lived with his mother, Christine Collins,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: in the Lincoln Heights area of Los Angeles. Christine worked
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: as a telephone operator and supported the household on her own.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Because Walter's father, Walter Joseph Collins was serving a sentence
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: at Folsom State Prison for robbery at the time. Now,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Christine and her son had a close relationship. By nineteen
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: twenty eight, Walter was nine years old and had developed
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: a very regular routine. He attended school, spent time in
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the neighborhood, you know, frequently visiting nearby movie theaters, which
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: were popular gathering places for children and families at the time.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: On Saturday, March tenth, nineteen twenty eight, Christine gave Walter
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: some money and allowed him to go walk to a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: local theater to see a movie. Now, the theater was
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: located within a reasonable distance of their home, and it
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: was very common for kids in the area to walk
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: there alone. It was no big deal, but that afternoon.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: A neighbor later reported seeing Walter round five near the
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: corner of Pasadena Avenue in North Avenue twenty three. He
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: was wearing a lumberjacket, a brown corduroy trousers, black Oxford shoes,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: and a gray cap. But this will be the last
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: ever confirmed sighting of him, as Walter never returned home.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: That's really something you don't see so much anymore. Hey,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Like kids are not given any freedom and I'm not
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: saying that's a bad thing in any way, but yeah,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: you don't just send your kid with money to go
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: do something because the world, I guess knows what can happen.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: They've done what can happen. Also, technology is a little
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: bit different. Instead of handing him cash to go see
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a movie, you know, you're you're handing them a tablet,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: or you're handing them v bucks or roeblocks money for
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: their game, things like that. Yeah, now I understand that
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that necessarily in a negative way. There's
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: negative and positive connotations to both, of course, But it's
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: just such a different world and how things have changed,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: not only because you know technology, but like you say
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and point out, because of what we've learned from incidents
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: in the past, Like.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: It's almost alarming seeing a kid just wander or walking solo.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: You don't see it very much anymore.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I betcha if you ever see a kid walking solo
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: their heads down and they're looking at.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Their phone, which is probably also making them in danger
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: in a sense, they're not paying attention and they're surrounding right.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Definitely, That's exactly where I was leading because it's like, oh,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: you know what. Yeah, they might be connected and they
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: can call for help, but they're not looking at their surroundings.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So while we may be more safe in some ways,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: we are less safe in others.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is just really off. For one quick sec
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I was chatting with a teacher recently and they were
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: talking about phones nowadays in schools and stuff, right, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: saying like, the hallways often are just like silence in
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: schools because the kids are just on their phone.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Oh damn.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: And to me that was just like, are you kidding me?
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Because when I was in school, it was just like
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: loud and people were annoying and yelling and doing whatever.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Now they're just like on their phone, and so it's
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: not all that hustle and bustle. Really wow, And I
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: had never thought of that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Blows my mind. Yeah, yeah, all right, I mean it
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: makes sense. Again, I'm not judging. There's positive and negative
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to both there. We were going to school, Yeah, we're
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: like we're reminiscing and romanticizing it. I had got pelted
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: in the back with an orange once in the halls
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: at high school. Like, there's positives to it, there's definitely
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: negatives on both sides, but it is definitely a different
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: world today than it is or was.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Back then, very much so now.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: When evening came and Walter didn't come home, Christine assumed
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: he may have just stayed out late or than usual,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: you know where, maybe he had gone to a friend's
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: house something like that. But as the night passed with
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: a word from him, she began to get increasingly worried,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: and by the next morning he still wasn't home. Ultimately, though,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Christine had waited several days before contacting police, and on
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: March fifteenth, nineteen twenty eight, five days after Walter was
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: last seen, she formally reported her son missing to the LAPD.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: What the shit?
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Well, that delay was later questioned as well. But the
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: thing is like, at the time, it wasn't exactly unusual
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: for parents to just hope that their child had wandered
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: off or stayed with an acquaintance or something. So the
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: assumption he's just going to be home in a couple days, oh,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: was not exactly abnormal. Now, if your kid is missing
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: for an hour, you know what, You're like, something's wrong.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Then it was like a day or two, and it's like, Okay,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: maybe I should get worried different time.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Right, I guess, but that's mind blowing to me.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Well, different time, I guess. Yeah, it's mind blowing to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you that kids are on their cell phones in the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: hallway at school too, So right, it just shows that difference,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: that's all it does. Now, after Christine filed the missing
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: person's report with the LAPD, they began an extensive search
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: for Walter. Officers canvas the Lincoln Heights neighborhood, spoke with neighbors,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: and attempted to retrace his route to the theater that night.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Police searched the area where children were known to gather too,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: including part werks, vacant lots, nearby waterways, and one of
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: the earliest searches focused on Lincoln Park Lake, where officers
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and volunteers looked for any sign that Walter might have
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: fallen in or been pushed into the water, but no
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: evidence was found. Now, as news of the disappearance spread,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: tips began to pour in from across the city and
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the surrounding areas too. Some claimed to have seen a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: boy matching Walter's description riding streetcars. Others believe they spotted
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: him in shopping districts or near train stations, but most
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of these reports just couldn't be verified. One of the
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: most disturbing early leads, though, came from Glendale, when a
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: gas station attendant named Richard Strauthers reported that a couple
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: had stopped for directions with what appeared to be a
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: dead boy wrapped in newspaper in the back seat of
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: their car with only his head visible.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah now, Richard said the couple appeared foreign and acted
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: extremely nervous. Another man Cebee State, Stanley Laid, claimed that
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: he followed this same couple after they left the gas station,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: and according to him, the vehicle briefly stopped in front
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: of a police station before speeding away and disappearing from sight.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: When police showed Richard and Stanley a photograph of Walter,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: both men said they believed that that child was the
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: one they had seen in the back seat.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Holy just in the backseat, wrapped in newspaper. Dead Yes, okay.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Now, Despite the seriousness of this report, investigators were unable
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to locate the couple or the vehicle, no physical evidence
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: supported the claim, and the lead eventually stalled. So that
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: is all we know of that incident.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: That's terrifying.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: So whether it's connected to this or not. That is
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: all we know, and that in itself is terrifying, honestly.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm just hoping it was a doll or a
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: mannequin or something.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, something that they just thought they saw, who knows,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: maybe even a pilot closed And there was like a
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: tan colored sweatshirt that, just as it was folded, looked
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: kind of like a boy's face with the shadows. Who knows.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it wasn't actually sweet, Yeah, we can hope. Now.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Other reports suggested that a boy was being transported around
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: California by a man and a woman and was pleading
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: with strangers for help. These stories were investigated but ultimately
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: led nowhere. Each new tip required time, manpower, and most
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: collapsed under any sort of scrutiny. Meanwhile, Walter's father, still
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: incarcerated at fulsome prison, developed his own theory. He believed
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: that former inmates may have abducted his son in some
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: sort of retaliation. You see, while in prison, he worked
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: in the cafeteria and was responsible for reporting rule violations
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: aka snitch. This role had earned him a lot of
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: resentment from other prisoners, and he feared that someone may
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: have targeted his family as revenge. Now, police looked into
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: this possibility, but found no direct evidence linking any former
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: inmates to Walter's disappe appearance. By late spring and early
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: summer of nineteen twenty eight, the investigation had grown large,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: but rather unfocused. Officers were chasing dozens of these unrelated leads,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: but no confirmed sightings had ever been made. No ransom
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: demands had been made either, and no evidence of any
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: sort had been recovered, and so the case simply remained open,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: active and increasingly frustrating. Public attention continued to grow too,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: and newspapers regularly criticized the police for failing to make
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: any progress in the case. For the LAPD every week
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: without answers, increased pressure from city officials and the public,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: and now, on May sixteenth, nineteen twenty eight, something else happened.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Two brothers from Panama, twelve year old Lewis Winslow and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: ten year old Nelson Winslow, also disappeared. The boys had
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: been attending a meeting at a local yacht club and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: were walking home when they vanished. Their parents reported the
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: missing and that was kind of that. Shortly after their disappearance,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the Winslow family began receiving unusual letters though the first
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: letters claimed that the boys were traveling to Mexico, and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: a second letter suggested that they were intending to remain
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: missing for as long as possible in order to try
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and become famous. The tone and content of the letters
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: raised a lot of concern, but investigators were unable to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: determine who had written them or where the boys were. Now.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Around that same period, authorities were dealing with another disturbing
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: case too. In February of nineteen twenty eight, several weeks
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: before Walter disappeared, police had discovered the headless body of
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: a Latino boy near La Puenta, California. The victim was
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: later believed to be Alvin Gothia. Now. In addition to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: these incidents, local authorities had received complaints about a poultry
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: farm in the rural community of Wineville, located in the
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Riverside County as well. Now neighbors reported that a man
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: on the property appeared to be mistreating young boy. These
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: complaints were recorded, but not really treated as urgent, and
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: they were largely overlooked. During this period, investigators did not
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: recognize a broader pattern Walter's disappearance, the Winslow brother's case,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and the Lapuenta homicide also mixed with the reports from
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: the Winesville They were all handled separately by different departments
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and agencies. Communications between jurisdictions was limited, and there was
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: no centralized system to connect any sort of similar cases.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: So as a result, opportunities to identify links between these
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: events were simply missed. Now by the summer of nineteen
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: twenty eight, nearly five months had passed since Walter Collins
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: had disappeared. Despite extensive efforts, the LAPD had no solid leads.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Public criticism continued to mount, of course, and the case
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: was increasingly viewed as another example of police failure. Then,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: in August of nineteen twenty eight, an unexpected development occurred
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: more than seven eighteen hundred miles away.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: This is really scary, it is, And I can kind
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: of understand the public, you know, being quite concerned because
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: it's kids, right, Like, holy shit, you got to get
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: your shit together when kids are involved. But I also
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: think it'd be very hard to be I can't even
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: fathom being like a police officer or an investigator at
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: that time, because I just I think your job would
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: be like a lot harder than it is today. But
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: then sometimes the more resources you have does make your
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: job harder too. I don't know, it's just how would
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: you even go about solving things back then?
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: You know, Well, that's part of the big problem. I mean, yeah,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you can investigate, Yeah, you can look at evidence. You know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: things are progressing, But when it comes to linking different
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: cases together, it became very difficult, especially when you're going
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: across jurisdictions or different precincts or anything like that. You know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: so we have one area handling this case, another area
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: handling this case. How do they communicate and draw the
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: lines between the two.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and you don't have like fingerprints and DNA
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: and all that jazz, right.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was definitely difficult, and at the same time,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I certainly understand the public's opinion of you got to
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: get things done, you got to try and solve this,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: look into it, get answers.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they're terrified for their kids exactly.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So it all makes sense on both sides now. It
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: was in August of nineteen twenty eight in Kabab, Illinois,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: where local police encountered a young boy who'd been drifting
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: through the area. At first, he identified himself as as
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Arthur Kent, and he said that his father had abandoned him. Now,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: because of his age and lack of stable housing, authorities
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: placed him with a temporary family while attempting to learn
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: more about his background. But over time, the boy began
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: to change his story. After continued questioning, he said his
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: real name was Walter Collins and that he'd run away
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: from la He said that he had avoided answering questions
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: earlier in order to try and protect his father. Now,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Illinois authorities were aware of the wily publicized missing child's
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: case from California, and when the boy made his claim,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: they contacted the LAPD and requested information. So photographs of
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the boy were taken and sent to California for comparison.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: When Christine Collins was shown the photographs, her reaction was immediate.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: This wasn't her son. His facial features, height, and overall
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: appearance seemed different. But still, despite her doubts, police officials
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: encouraged her to remain hopeful. Now the LAPD they viewed
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the discovery as a potential breakthrough, and after months without progress,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the possibility of locating Walter alive while it offered a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: way to resolve the case. So arrangements were made to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: bring this boy to Los Angeles by train, with Christine
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: agreeing to pay for the travel expenses. When the boy
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: arrived in California, police organized a public reunion. Reporters, photographers,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: and officers all gathered at the station, and the event
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: was widely covered in the news, which portrayed it as
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: a very successful conclusion to a long and difficult investigation. Now,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Christine met the boy in front of cameras and spectators.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Although she attempted to remain composed, she later stated that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: she immediately believed something was wrong. He did not speak,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: or look or behave like her son at all. She
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: was convinced this wasn't him. Still, under intense public and
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: police pressure, the reunion was presented as genuine. The LAPD
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: announced that Walter Collins had officially been found. Now, after
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: that very public reunion, Christine Collins privately told officers that
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: this wasn't her son. Once again, she pointed out several
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: differences immediately. The child was shorter than Walter, his facial
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: structure was different, his mannerisms didn't match. He did not
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: recognize familiar people or places. He addressed her as maw
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: rather than mother, which Walter always did. But Christine's concerns, well,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: they were just dismissed. The officer in charge of the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: case was Captain J. J. Jones, and he insisted that
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: the boy was, in fact Walter.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: That's so messed up. Just trying to convince this mom, no,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: this is your kid.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when she knows better, and otherwise she would know
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: exactly now. Jones, of course, was under intense pressure to
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: close the investigation and restore the department's reputation, so a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: successful recovery of a missing child would reflect positively on
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: of course, both himself and the LAPD. So Jones instructed
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Christine to just take the boy home and quote try
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: him out for a few weeks. He suggested that her
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: doubts were the result of stress and emotional exhaustion. Reluctancy
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: kind of took over, but Christine agreed, and so for
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: the next three weeks the boy lived in her home. Now,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: during that time, Christine became even more convinced that this
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: was not her son. He struggled to recall personal details
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: from Walter's life. He behaved differently, he had different habits
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and preferences, his height again still inconsistent, and also with
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: medical records, friends, relatives, and neighbors who knew Walter. They
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: also expressed doubts. Christine even actually took steps to document
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her concerns. She contacted Walter's dentists and obtained dental records.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: These records show that Walter had undergone dental work that
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: did not match this boy's teeth. She also gathered signed
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: statements from people who knew Walter, all stating that the
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: child in her care was not him.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, good for her, because I'm almost feeling like that
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: was a bit cruel of them. It was they're almost
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: playing mind games with her. No, like this is your son,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: this is your son, And some people would be like,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: oh gosh, is it you know, because she's in a
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: state where her son is missing, so of course she
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: wants this to be her son exactly. So I just
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: feel like that was almost a bit cruel. So I'm
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: glad that she stepped back and was like no and
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: held her ground.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Well, if you think that's cruel, just wait to what
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: you hear happens next. Because when she returned to the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: police station with the evidence, like she was expecting a
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: serious review of the case, but instead Captain Jones, well
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: he reacted extremely angrily towards her when confronted with evidence
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: that this child was not Walter. Captain Jones accused Christine
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: of being ungrateful and irresponsible. He claimed that she was
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: trying to avoid her responsibilities as a mother, and he
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: suggested that she wanted the state to take care of
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: her child. He also accused her of attempting to embarrass
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: the department by challenging their conclusion in the case.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Wooh, that is fucked up. Yeah, I have never heard
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: anything like that before.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, you're trying to make the police look
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: foolish literally quote look foolish in front of the public.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you didn't do your job, buddy.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Right, so you are looking foolish and that's not her doing,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: that's your doing.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: But just doesn't want that to come out, I guess.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And so he's oh, okay, Yeah, this is not okay
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: what they're doing to this poor mom.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: It's not So rather than reopening the investigation, he's defending
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: the department's position, saying this is Walter. So at this point,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the relationship between Christine and the LAPD became very openly hostile,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and her persistence was no longer viewed as cooperation. Instead,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it was treated as defiance. So on September eighth, nineteen
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: twenty eight, less than a month after the boy had
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: arrived in Los Angeles, Captain Jones took formal action against
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Christine Collins without conducting a new investigation into her claims.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: He ordered that Christine be committed to the psychiatric ward
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: at Los Angeles County General Hospital. Now, the commitment was
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: carried out under a procedure known as Code twelve. This
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: designation allowed police to have individuals detained and evaluated if
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: they were considered disruptive, unstable, or difficult to manage.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I am shocked here.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So abusing this Code twelve, Christine was taken into
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: custody and placed in the hospital psychiatric unit against her will.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And while hospitalized, she was subjected to repeated interviews by
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: doctors and staff members who were closely connected with law enforcement,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: so they're extremely biased. Now. During these sessions, she was
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: questioned about her mental state, her behavior, and her attitude
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: towards police. According to later accounts, many of these interviews
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: were conducted in a way that framed her emotional distress
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: as evidence of instability. Because when she became frustrated or upset,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: it was simply recorded as irrational behavior. When she tried
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: to remain calm, it was interpreted as emotional detachment. No
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: matter how she responded, it was used to justify her
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: continued confinement.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: But really, she has every right to be freaking out exactly.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And also because them deeming that this is her son
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: means they're not freaking searching for her actual son.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. They want to close the case
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: because then the public's happy, Oh he was just found.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: They want to just cover it up and not have
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: to work on it and onto the next case and
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: falsify what their jobs are and what they're actually doing.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: This is disgusting.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically they want the participation ribbon and just to
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: look good.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Now. Outside the hospital, though, friends, coworkers, and community members,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: they began to protest her treatment. Several people who had
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: known Walter personally contacted the police to support Christine's claims.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Her dentists also reaffirmed that those dental records did not match,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: and neighbors and relatives insisted the boy was in fact
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: not Walter. However, despite the growing pressure the LAPD, they
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: maintained its position and they continued to assert that Walter
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: had been found and that Christine was suffering from an
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: emotional problem. Privately, however, doubts were finally beginning to surface
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: within the department itself, and investigators quietly began to re
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: examine the identity of the boy that they had brought
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: in from Illinois. The pressure in all of it was
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: finally getting to them. One of the first serious things
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: they looked at was a handwriting analysis. Samples of Walter's
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: writing from school records and earlier documents were compared to
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: writing produced by the boy. An expert concluded that the
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: handwriting didn't match, in particular the way the boy formed
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: his letter r it was consistent with writing styles commonly
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: taught in Illinois but not in California. Around the same time,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: officers began questioning the boy more closely, without Christine present.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: He was asked to explain inconsistencies in his story and
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: to provide specific details about Walter's life, and under this
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: renewed scrutiny, his account began to unravel, and eventually the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: boy admitted the truth. He confessed he was not Walter Collins.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: His real name was Arthur Hutchins, Junior, a twelve year
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: old runaway originally from Iowa. After his mother died in
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five, Arthur had been living with his father
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: and step mother, and he described his home life as
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: unhappy and restrictive. Arthur explained that he had been traveling
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: for several weeks when he reached Kebab, Illinois. While staying
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: at a roadside cafe, someone mentioned that he resembled the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: missing boy from la whose picture had appeared in newspapers.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Arthur then realized that claiming the boy's identity might allow
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: him to travel across the country. Now. His primary motive
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: in all doing this, he said, was to get to
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Hollywood so he could meet his favorite actor, Tom Mix.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Arthur also admitted to using other false names while traveling, too,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: and he showed little remorse for deceiving Christine and authorities
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: in the way he did it. He mind, you, he
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: is just a child.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's kind of sad and kind of you know,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: his reasoning behind it is so innocent too, right, Yeah.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: So you can't exactly blame him, but yeah, he didn't
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: exactly do the best either.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: No.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Now, in later interviews, he suggested that Christine must have
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: known that that he was not her son, and that
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the situation had simply become a bit of a game,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: which he's kind of right, except it's not really a
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: game to her since her real son is still missing.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: But in that mindset from such a young boy, I
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: can see it. Now. Arthur's confession was recorded, the LAPD
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: could no longer maintain its earlier position, and Christine was
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: released from the psychiatric hospital. Approximately ten days later, Arthur
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: was returned to Illinois, where his stepmother retrieved him and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: took him home. Now, while Christine was being discharged, the
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: real story of what was going on behind the several
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: missing children was quietly coming to the surface in the
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: rural countryside at a small chicken ranch owned by Gordon
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Stuart Northcotte. Now. Gordon had been born in November of
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: nineteen oh six in Saskatchewan, Canada and raised in British Columbia.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: His adulthood was unstable, filled with family conflict and later
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: allegations of abuse. Tooeteen twenty four, he moved with his
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: parents to Los Angeles, and within a short time he
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: began showing troubling behavior, including incidents involving young boys, that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: brought him to the attention of the authorities. In nineteen
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: twenty five, he was reprimanded by a judge for a
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: sexual offense involving a minor, and one year later, in
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty six, at nineteen years old, Gordon convinced his
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: father Cyrus, to buy him a three acre plot of
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: land in Wineville, a small farming community east of La Damn.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I wonder if I could do that right.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: So, with financial help from his father and labor from
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: his young nephew, Sanford Clark, he built a small house
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: and a chicken ranch. It looked like a nice, little,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: modest agricultural operation, but in reality, while this it became
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: the center of his crimes. Later in nineteen twenty six,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Gordon traveled back to Canada and visited his sister, Winnifred Clark.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: He persuaded her to let her thirty ten year old son, Sandford,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: who had already helped build on the farm, returned to
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: California with him. He told him that Sandford would attend
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: school and help on the ranch, so, trusting her brother,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: she agreed, but almost immediately after sandford ride in Wineville,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: the abuse began. According to Sandford's later testimony, Gordon began
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: physically and sexually assaulting him repeatedly. He beat him, he
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: chained him in the chicken coop for extended periods, and
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: threatened him constantly. Sandford was isolated from the outside world
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and had no realistic way to escape. He was forced
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: to write letters home saying he's happy and safe, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: in these letters, of course, while they were all dictated
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: or very closely monitored by Gordon. Now over the next
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: two years, Gordon began bringing other boys to the ranch.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Two He would drive into la and nearby towns, approaching
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: boys in the street and offering them money your work.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Some were promise farm jobs and others were simply tricked
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: into getting his car. Either way. Once at the ranch,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: they were locked inside the chicken coop or inside the house.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Sandford testified that these boys were repeatedly raped and beaten,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: just like he was. He said that Gordon had forced
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: him to witness the abuse and in sometimes assist in
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: it too, and if Sandford refused, Gordon threatened to kill him.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: So he believed that his life was dependent on obedience.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: By early nineteen twenty eight, Gordon began killing his victims.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: In February nineteen twenty eight, he shot a teenage Mexican
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: boy near La Puente with a twenty two caliber rifle.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: He then cut off the boy's head and brought it
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: back to the ranch and he showed it to Sandford,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: claiming the boy quote knew too much, and then Gordon
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: ordered Sandford to burn the head and later smash the
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: skull with an axe because it didn't burn completely. The
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: headless body, meanwhile, while was dumped on the roadside.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Poo, this is just like a ranch of horors.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Really, it really is. Now. In March of nineteen twenty eight,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: nine year old Walter Collins was abducted and he too
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: was allegedly brought to the ranch. Sandford said Walter was
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: kept in the chicken coop for several days, repeatedly assaulted,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: and eventually he was murdered. According to later testimony, Gordon
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and his mother, Sarah Louise Northcott, were both present. Sandford
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: was forced to strike Walter with an axe before Gordon
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: and Sarah finished killing him. Walter's body was buried in
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: a shallow grave and covered in quicklime. Speed up d
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: comm yeah yeah. In May of nineteen twenty eight, brothers
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Lewis and Nelson Winslow were kidnapped in Panama and of course,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: were taken to Wineville. They were held there for over
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: a week. They too were beaten and raped and forced
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: to it to write letters home claiming that they had
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: gone to Mexico. Sandford was ordered to dig their graves
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: in advance, and when Gordon grew tired of them, he
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: forced Sandford to kill one of the boys while he
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: killed the other. The bodies were buried on the ranch,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: again with quicklime and covered with straw and chickens.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, Okay, this is just horrible.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: It is. And throughout this entire period, like Sandford's living
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: with his uncle who's forcing him to kill, and his
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: uncle is killing and he's just in constant terror.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah I can't.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: The fact that he's related to him, right and he's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: still like, you know, sexually assaulting him and stuff too,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: is really really gross.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Well, and he's getting death threats, like he's sleeping on
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: this place knowing he could be killed at any moment,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: oh yeah.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: And witnessing that this is happening, so he like his
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: uncle is not joking.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's witnessing boys like his age and younger
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: like who came on endured the same thing he did.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: The only differences He's alive and they're dying, which means
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: it could be him at any second. Like he believed
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: that if he told anyone, he'd be murdered and buried
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: right next to them himself.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I believe it too, Yeah, I so do.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: I Now back in Canada, his family began to worry
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: for him. Sandford's Sandford's letters they seemed wrong and off.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Though written in his handwriting, they sounded unnatural and unlike him.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Jesse Clark, Sandford's older sister, noticed that the tone of
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: vocabulary were unlike him, and that she also noticed the
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: spelling and punctuation, which was normally poor, had suddenly improved.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: So in August of nineteen twenty eight, Jesse saved up
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: enough money to travel to California and visit her brother.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: When she arrived at the ranch, she seemed to sense
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: that immediately something was off. Gordon behaved aggressively towards her
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: and tried to control her movements. I'm all strange and
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: the atmosphere at the property was It felt very threatening.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Then one night, while Gordon was asleep, Sandford whispered the
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: truth in his sister's ear. He told her all about
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: the rapes, the beatings, the murders, the graves, and the
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: death threats he had received, and he said he was
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: afraid he was going to be next. It was in
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: that moment that Jesse realized her brother was living inside
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: a complete nightmare. Soon she managed to return to Canada
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: and she told her family everything. Together, they contacted the
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: American consul and submitted a sworn complaint stating that Sandford
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: had been kidnapped and was being held illegally in California
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: by Gordon Northcott. The complaint reached the LAPD and because
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Sandford had crossed the border illegally, authorities initially focused on
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: immigration violations rather than homicide, and the case was passed
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to the United States Immigration Service. So on August thirty first,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, two federal Immigration inspectors Judson F. Shaw
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: and George W. Scolorn drove towards Gordon Northcott's chicken ranch
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: in Wineville, California. The ranch was located at the end
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of a long, isolated dirt road and from the main house,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: anyone on the property could easily see vehicles approaching from
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: a distance. And when Gordon noticed the inspector's car driving
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: towards the ranch, he immediately knew authorities had been alerted,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: so realizing he was about to be confronted, he panicked
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: and he decided to run before escaping, though Gordon threatened
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Sandford and ordered him to delay the inspectors for as
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: long as he possibly could. He warned the boy that
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: if he failed to cooperate, he would be shot from
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: the nearby trees. Gordon then grabbed a rifle and ran
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: into the surrounding fields and into the wooded area, leaving
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: behind his home, his belongings, his operation, and his nephew Sandford. Now.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: When Shaw and scholar and arrived, Sandford met them and
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: attempted to follow Gordon's instructions. He told them his uncle
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: wasn't home and claimed he didn't know when he'd return,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: so over the next two hours, Sandford did his best
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: to keep them occupied, answering questions cautiously and showing them
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: parts of the property, while constantly fearing that Gordon might
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: still be watching from nearby and pulling a trigger on
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: him at any wrong move. Eventually, though he began to
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: realize that Gordon had likely fled for good. He also
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: realized that this was his only chance to escape, so
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: once he believed the inspectors could actually protect him, he
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: broke down and told them the truth. He admitted that
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: his uncle had ran away and began describing the abuse
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: he had suffered over the past two years. He told
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: them Gordon had held him against his will, sexually assaulted him,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: threatened him repeatedly, brought other boys to the ranch who
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: had gone through the same and then were murdered and
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: buried on the property. And the inspector, of course, were
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: very unprepared for what they were hearing. This was supposed
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: to be a routine immigration inquiry, just an inquiry, but
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: now it had suddenly become a major criminal case. Shaw
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: and Scholarn immediately play Sandford in the protective custody and
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: contacted their supervisors. Within days, multiple law enforcement agencies were
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: involved in a full investigation was launched. Sandford was then
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: taken to a secure location and questioned by police and
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: federal authorities. At first, he was very hesitant, remember for
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: years he'd been conditioned to remain silent through violence and
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: intimidation by his uncle. But slowly he began providing a
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: detailed testimony, he described how boys had been abducted, abused,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: and murdered. He explained there were graves, He explained where
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: they were located, and how bodies had been disposed of,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: even using the quickline. He also told investigators that Gordon
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: and his mother had even dug up graves in early
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: August and removed remains from the property in an attempt
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: to destroy evidence.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Poof, Okay, the fact that his mother is involved as well.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: You had mentioned that earlier, and I was just like, okay,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: but that that would be this kid's grandma. Yes, So
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: that okay, So we have a mess.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: To Sanford's point of view, it's his uncle and grandmother who.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Are murdering assholes, yes.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: And forcing him to do the same, and also abused
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: and assaulted him.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: And keeping him there really against his will at this point.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. So, based on Sandford's information, authorities organized a
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: very large scale search of the ranch, and on September fifteenth,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, officers, investigators, and forensic specialists arrived at
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: the property and began excavating the area Sandford had identified
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: under his guidance, then covered several shallow graves near the
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: chicken coop and surrounding buildings. Inside the graves, investigators did
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: not find complete bodies, but instead they discovered scattered fragments
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: of human remains. These included pieces of skulls, fingerbones, and
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: other skeletal parts. In total, fifty one separate bone fragments
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: were cataloged and laboratory testing later confirmed they remained to
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: young male victims. Other evidence was found throughout the property too.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Blood stains were discovered inside the chicken coop and nearby structures.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Several axes were even recovered, some of which contained dried
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: blood and strands of human hair still on them.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: I also just have to say, like being inside a
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: chicken coop is not in a good place. No, And
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: also chickens are assholes, so I'm you know, they could
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: be pecking at them and you know, and it would
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: be smelly and gross.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some chickens that are nice, but majority of
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: chickens they can kind of be some dicks sometimes, especially
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: if you're looking at roosters. I don't know what this.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't look into exactly what he was farming, whether
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: it was chicken for meat or eggs or what if
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: he had roosters. I don't know, but they can be
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: quite protective of their hens, and they will fight and
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: scratch and peck.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Well, and if you have any wounds, they're attracted to red.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: So if you're like bleeding in any way, these chickens
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: are going to be all up in your grill.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I also don't know if this chicken coop
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: per se had cage chickens for a range chickens. I
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: don't know if they're walking on him or if they're separate.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe he's in an entrance area. I don't know the
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: exact details of that, but the possibilities well, they can
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: certainly get dark now. Mattresses with bloodstains had also been
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: found as they were buried in ground in the grounds
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and burned. Scraps of paper with personal items were scattered
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: across the ranch too. They also recovered belongings like things
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: that linked to the missing boys, which included boy scout badges,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: a child's whistle, letters written to parents, and pages from
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: a library book belonging to one of the Winslow brothers.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Clothing similar to that of Lewis and Nelson Winslow what
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: they had been wearing. Well. They had also been found
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: all of These discoveries supported Sandford's account that the ranch
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: had been used repeatedly as a site of abuse and murder.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: What stood out most to investigators, though, was what they
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: did not find. Despite extensive searching, no intact bodies were recovered.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Sandford explained that this was because Well Gordon and his
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: mother had returned to the graves weeks earlier, and according
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: to him, they'd exhumed the bodies on the night of
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: August fourth, nineteen twenty eight, and then transported them to
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: a remote area and likely burned or reburied them somewhere else. Now,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: this actually matched with the timeline of Sandford's sister, Jesse
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Clark and her visit, and it suggested that they suspected
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: something could be happening and were trying to cover the
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: tracks just in case, eliminating any sort of physical evidence.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: As news of the findings spread, the case quickly became
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: national headlines. Reporters descended on Winesville, and the ranch became
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: widely known as the site of horrific crimes. Now the
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: phrase chicken coop murders began appearing in newspapers across the country,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and public outrage grew as details emerged about how long
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the abuse had gone undetected. Remember, Sandford had been on
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: that property for two years. That's a long time. And
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: at that same time authorities were forced to acknowledge their
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: earlier failures. The evidence in the ranch confirmed that Christine
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Collins had been correct. The boy that she had been
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: pressured to accept as her own was in fact not
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: her son, and Walter Collins was almost certainly one of
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott's victims here on the ranch. By early September
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, Gordon Northcott was one of the most
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: wanted men in California. The discovery of human remains and
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: physical evidence at his Wineville ranch, combined with Sandford's detailed testimony,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: while it made a very made it very clear to
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: investigators that they were dealing with a serial offender responsible
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: for multiple kidnappings, assaults, and murders. Law enforcement agencies in
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: California immediately issued alerts and began coordinating with authorities across
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: state lines. Investigators believed Gordon would attempt to flee either
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: towards Los Angeles or back to Canada, where much of
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: his family lived and given as Canadian citizenship and strong
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: family ties there, officials considered Canada was the most likely destination,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: so border crossings, railway stations, and major travel routes were monitored,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and descriptions of Gordon and his mother were circulated widely,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: which was very smart because Gordon had not fled alone.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: He was with his mother, and he had headed for Canada.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Shortly after escaping the ranch, he contacted his mother, Sarah
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Louise Northcott, who'd been visiting California at the time, and
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: together they arranged to leave the US and traveled north
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: through Washington State, where they successfully crossed into Canada. Attempting
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: to blend in and avoid attention. For several weeks, they
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: moved between relatives' homes and temporary accommodations. Gordon's goal was
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: to reach his sister's place, Winnifred Clark, who lived in
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: British Columbia. Now, ironically, this was the same family who
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: made that complaint originally, which triggered the whole investigation, so
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: clearly he had no idea that they were involved in
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: outing him. Meanwhile, American authorities worked with Canadian officials to
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: try and track him. Information from witnesses, family members, and
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: transportation records gradually narrowed down their possible locations, and by
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: mid September, investigators believed Gordon and his mother were in
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: fact in western Canada, and eventually, through action good police work,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: finally on September nineteenth, nineteen twenty eight, RCMP located and
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: arrested Gordon Northcott and Sarah Louise Northcott near Vernon, British Columbia.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: They were taken into custody without any fight or resistance.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: The arrest was immediately reported to the authorities in California
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: and the extradition process began. However, mistakes in the initial
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: paperwork delayed the return to the United States, so instead
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: of being transferred quickly, Gordon and his mother were held
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: in Canadian custody for several weeks while legal formalities were corrected.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Now During this period of detention, though both Gordon and
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: his mother, Sarah, made statements to the authorities. Sarah, initially
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: she confessed to participating in the murder of Walter Collins
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: and other crimes. Gordon also made admissions claiming responsibility for
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: multiple killings. Some reports even indicate that he confessed to
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: killing as many as five or more boys. These confessions, however,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: were inconsistent and often contradictory and unfortunately, were not properly
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: documented in the way that made them fully admissible in court,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and as the weeks passed, both Gordon and his mother
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: began retracting their statements. By the time extradition was finalized,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: they were once again denying any responsibility. On November thirtieth,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, after nearly two months of delays, well,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott and his mother were formally extradited to California.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: They were transported under heavy guard and placed into the
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: custody in Riverside County. By this point, public attention was
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: very intense. Newspapers followed every single development, and crowds gathered
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: whenever the suspects were moved. The idea that a young
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: man and his mother had operated a hidden murder site
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: on a chicken farm shocked the nation. The case was
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: no longer just about a missing child or children. It
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: became one of the most notorious criminal investigations in California's history,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: and shortly after the return, Gordon was taken back to
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Winesville Ranch under police supervision. Investigators hoped that revisiting the
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: crime scene might prompt him to reveal more information, or
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: maybe lead them to additional evidence and lucky for them.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: During his visit, he spoke about killing multiple boys, including
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the Winslow brothers, Walter Collins, and a Mexican boy later
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: identified as Alvin Gothia, the one who was decapitated. He
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: described using quick clime to destroy bodies and burying remains
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: around the property. However, when he was asked to put
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: these statements in writing, he became very cautious and he
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: signed only a very limited confession admitting responsible for Alvin
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Gothia's murder. Now At the same time, his mother, Sarah
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Louise Northcott, made her own statements. In December of nineteen
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: twenty eight, she formally confessed a part timeticipating in the
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: murder of Walter Collins. She told authorities that she had
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: been present when the boy was killed and claimed that
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: she had delivered the final blow. According to both her
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: account and Sanford's testimony, she had insisted that all three
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: of them take part in killing him so that no
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: one could betray the other without incriminating themselves. Sarah described
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: encouraging her son and her grandson to take part, and
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: she said she believed she was protecting Gordon by ensuring
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: they shared the guilt together.
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, that doesn't make any logical sense, but okay, right,
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: it's also super weird how they how Gordon will admit
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: to everything he did and then almost and then basically
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: retract it. He does that consistently, So that doesn't make any.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Sense, I know, But basically, by Sarah's perspective, I guess
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: like she's saying, like a family that kills together stays
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: together is essentially what she's trying to say, which is ridiculous.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which doesn't sound fucked up at all.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Not at all, not in the slightest no. Now, Despite
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: her confession, Sarah's behavior remained extremely erratic. During interviews. She
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: frequently contradicted herself and made bizarre claims about her family.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: At various points, she insisted that Gordon was not her
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: biological son, she claimed that he was a product of incest,
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: and alleged widespread sexual abuse within the family, statements that
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: raise some serious questions about her mental state and credibility. Meanwhile,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: investigators continued to rely heavily on Sandford's testimony, and by
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: this point Sandford had been removed from Gordon's control and
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: was living under supervision with medical examinations and documented physical
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: injuries that were consisted with prolonged abuse. Psychologists and social
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: workers described him as traumatized but still cooperative. He continued
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: to provide any details he could, Accounts of how boys
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: were brought to the ranch, where they were capped, how
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: they were restrained, how they were killed, all of it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: By late December nineteen twenty eight, prosecutors had assembled enough
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: evidence to proceed, and they decided to focus their main
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: case on the murders that they could prove most clearly,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: and that were the deaths of Lewis and Nelson Winslow,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: along with Alvin Gothfea. Now, these cases were supported by
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: physical remains, documented disappearances, and strong witness testimony. Now, with
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Walter Collins's case, although widely believed to be connected, it
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: lacked a lot of comparable forensic evidence. Because Sarah had
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: already confessed and accepted responsibility, prosecutors chose not to charge
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Gordon with Walter's murder, and this decision would ultimately leave
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: his fate technically unresolved. Technically speaking, now, on December thirty first,
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, Sarah Northcott formally pled guilty to the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: murder of Walter Collins. She was sentenced to life imprisonment
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: without a trial. The judge spared her the death penalty,
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: citing her aid and gender of ruling, which was very controversial,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: especially given the seriousness of her confession. But with Sarah
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: sentenced and Gordon awaiting trial, attention then turned fully to
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: preparing the courtroom case. Lawyers reviewed hundreds of pages of
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: testimony and evidence. Witnesses were scheduled. The state prepared to
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: argue that Gordon Northcott had operated a hidden system of abduction, abuse,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: and murder, basically all under the cover of a rural
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: chicken ranch. And so Gordon and his trial opened in
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Riverside County in January nineteen twenty nine. By that point,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: the case had already attracted national attention in newspapers from
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: across the US sent reporters to cover the proceedings. Large
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: crowds gathered outside the courthouse each and every day, and
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: from the beginning the trial was unusual. Gordon repeatedly dismissed
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: defense attorneys who were assigned to represent him. He claimed
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: they were incompetent, then that he could defend himself better
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: than any professional lawyer, and eventually he insisted on acting
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: as his own attorney. Now, this decision immediately put him
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: at a disadvantage. He had no formal legal training and
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: struggled to follow any sort of courtroom procedures. Once testimony
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: finally began, a prosecution laid out a detailed account of
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Gordon's activities at the Wineville Ranch. Investigators described what they
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: had found on the property burial sites, bone fragments, bloodstains,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: personal belongings, and of course, the bloodied acts. Forensic specialists
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: examined how quicklime had been used to destroy human remains,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: and pathologists testified that the bones recovered belonged to young
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: males and were consistent with violent deaths. Former neighbors and
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: witnesses testified about strange activity around the ranch too, including
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: unfamiliar boys coming and going, and unusual nighttime behavior. Some
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: even recalled hearing screams or seeing frightened children on the property.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: But the most important part was the witness testimony of
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Sanford Clark. When he took the stay, the courtroom fell silent.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: He described in very careful detail how he had been
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: taken to the ranch, how he was isolated and abused,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: and of course threatened. He explained how Gordon controlled him
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: through fear and violence, and he told the jury about
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: the boys who were brought onto the property and never left.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Sandford recounted how the Winslow brothers were killed and buried.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: He described being forced to participate under the threat of death,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: and medical experts supported his testimony by presenting evidence of
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: long term physical trauma. Prosecutors portrayed Sandford as a victim
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: who had been trapped in an impossible situation. They emphasized
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: that he had cooperated fully once he was safe and
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: had led police directly to evidence.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Well, this is I just have to say, a survival
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: story in a sense for him, because it's you know,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: amazing that he didn't also have the same fate.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Really, you're right now. Gordon's defense, largely controlled by Gordon himself,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: on the other hand, was very chaotic and rather ineffective.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: He admitted in court that he had sexually abused young boys,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: claiming that he quote loved them and that these relationships
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: were misunderstood. Now, these statements horrified observers, just like you're,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: ugh horrified, really gross, disgusting, Yeah, and it undermined any
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: attempt to portray himself as innocent, honestly, he attempted to
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: shift blame onto others, including Sandford and his own mother.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: At different points, he suggested his mother had exaggerated her
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: role and that Sandford had acted independently, and that authorities
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: were framing him. Gordon also called his mother, Sarah Louise,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: as a witness. Her testimony was erratic and confusing. She
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: repeated claims that Gordon was not her biological son and
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: described alleged incest and abuse within the family. She stated
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: that she would do anything to protect him now, rather
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: than helping his defense. Her statements only seemed to reinforce
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: the impression of dysfunction and instability in Gordon's life, and
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: throughout the trial, Gordon frequently argued with prosecutors, he interrupted witnesses,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: and made emotional outbursts. The judge had to repeatedly remind
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: him to follow the courtroom rules and all this lack
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: of discipline and legal skill will it seriously weaken his
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: credibility in front of the jury. But eventually, though, they
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: did get through it, and after nearly four weeks of testimony,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: both sides delivered closing arguments in early February nineteen twenty nine.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors pushed the physical evidence, Sandford's detailed testimony, and Gordon's
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: own admissions, while the defense well Gordon offered little in
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: the way of any sort of coherent counter argument. On
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: February eighth, nineteen twenty nine, after deliberating, the jury returned
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: with its verdict. Gordon Northcott was found guilty on all
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder of Lewis and Nelson, Winslow
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: and Alvin Gothia. Five days later, Judge George R. Freeman
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: formally sentenced Gordon Northcott to death by hanging.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I think that even if he had a lawyer,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: that would have still been the same outcome.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: I think so. I think just representing himself they made
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: it a lot easier.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: I guess, well, yeah, I don't know what he was thinking, Like,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: he is not a smart man.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: He's not.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: He's he's got a screw or two loose, to say
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: the least. Now, the courtroom's reaction was very mixed, because
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: families are the victims. Well, they expressed relief, but also
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: they felt frustrated the bodies of their children had never
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: been fully recovered. Some questioned some questions that they had
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: it was just they were unanswered and open, and for
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Walter Collins's mother, specifically Christine, the verdict provided no closure
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: at all. Now, Gordon was transferred to San Quentin State
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Prison to await execution. He was twenty two years old
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: at the time. Now, at that time, death row inmates
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: did not typically remain in prison for decades as common today.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Right executions were usually carried out within a few years,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: and for Gordon, that period between sentencing and death would
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: last less than two. During this time, he wrote numerous
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: letters and statements. In some, he claimed full responsibility for
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: multiple murders. In others, he denied knowing certain victims even
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: at all. At times, he blamed his father, suggesting that
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Cyrus Northcott had actually kidnapped and killed Walter Collins. In
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: other letters, he insisted he never even met Walter at all. Now,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: these contradictory claims made it nearly impossible to determine what,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: if anything, Gordon was saying could be trusted. Psychologists and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: prison officials described him as highly deceptive and emotionally detached.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: He appeared to be more concerned with controlling how he
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: was perceived than actually showing any remorse. Meanwhile, Christine Collins
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: continued her search for the truth about her son. Despite
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: Sarah Northcotte's guilty plea and Sandford Clark's testimony, Christine struggled
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: to accept that her son was dead. The lack of
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: physical evidence tying Walter directly to the ranch, while it
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: left room for doubt, and Gordon's shifting stories, only reinforced
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: that uncertainty. Christine actually wrote letters to Gordon in prison,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: asking him directly what had happened to her son, and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: at times he responded vaguely. At other times he claimed ignorance.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: Occasionally he suggested that Walter had escaped been taken elsewhere.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Each reply, while it raised her hopes, then crushed them
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: all over again. But shortly before his scheduled execution in
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, Gordon sent Christine a telegram. In it he
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: stated that he had lied previously and was now ready
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: to tell the truth about her son. He promised that
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: if she came to see him in prison, he would
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: finally explain what had happened. She had spent more than
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: two years fighting police misconduct, public skepticism, and personal grief,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: and the possibility that she might finally receive a clear
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: answer outweighed any emotional risk, so she arranged a visit
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: to San Quentin and traveled to the prison shortly before
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: his execution date. When she arrived, however, Gordon refused to cooperate.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: Oh geez, not surprising, but what like at this point,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: just tell the truth, I know, right, because you're just
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: tormenting this poor mom.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: According to prison officials and contemporary newspaper reports, he suddenly
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: changed his mind. He told guards he didn't even want
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: to see Christine at all, and he claimed that he
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: was innocent and knew nothing about Walter's disappearance. And so
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: the meeting ended without them ever actually meeting and no
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: answers being told.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: Wow, that is really really rude, like terribly.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: Rude, I know now. As his execution approached, Gordon showed
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: signs of fear for the first time. He asked guards
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: whether hanging would be painful, and he requested to be
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: blindfolded when led to the gallows, saying he did not
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: want to see the rope. On October second, nineteen thirty,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Gordon Stuart Northcott was executed by hanging at San Quentin
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: State Prison. He was twenty three years old. He died
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: without ever providing a clear, consistent account of his crimes.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Following the execution, the immediate legal chapter of the Wineville
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Chicken Coop murder came to an official end. However, the social, emotional,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: and cultural impact of the case continued to affect many
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: people and communities for decades. For the town of Wineville,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: the association with the murders became overwhelming. Before the case,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Wineville had been a quiet agricultural community in Riverside County,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: known primarily for its farm in rural landscape, but after
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: the trial well its name became permanently linked in the
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: public mind with child abduction and murder. Newspapers across the
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: country continued to use the phrase Wineville Chickencoop murders, ensuring
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: that the town's reputation remained tied to the crimes. Residents
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: reported that outsiders avoided the area, property value suffered, businesses struggled,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: and many locals felt that their community had been unfairly
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: defined by a single man's actions. And in November of
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, shortly after Gordon's execution, the town leaders voted
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: to change the community's name to Mira Loma, meaning view
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: from the Hill in Spanish. The change was intended to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: create distance from the past and allow the town to
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: rebuild its identity. The families of the victims, they faced
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: a different kind of aftermath, though. For the parents of
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Lewis and Nelson Winslow, the trial body it brought a
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: degree of legal closure, but little emotional resolution. Their son's
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: bodies had never fully been recard and the absence of
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: a proper burial made grief a lot more difficult. The
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: family of Alvin Gothia, they faced even greater uncertainty. His
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: identity had taken years to finally establish, and much of
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: his life and death remained unclear, with only fragments recovered.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: His case became one of the many unresolved aspects of
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: the investigation. Sandford Clark's life after the trial, while it
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: followed a bit of a quieter path. After authorities concluded
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: that he had acted under extreme coercion, he was not
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: prosecuted for his involvement in the murders. Instead, prosecutors recommended
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: that he be sent to Whittier State School, a reformed
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: institution that focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Sandford remained
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: there for nearly two years, and records indicate that he cooperated, fully,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: worked diligently, and showed strong motivation to rebuild his life.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: After returning to Canada, Sandford largely avoided public attention. He
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: later so deserved in the Royal Canadian Army during World
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: War II and worked for the Canadian Postal Service for
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: many years. He also got married and adopted two sons.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Although he rarely spoke publicly about his childhood, those close
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: to him said he struggled with guilt and trauma all
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: throughout his life. He died in nineteen ninety one at
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: the age of seventy eight. Sarah Louise Northcott remained in
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: prison until nineteen forty, when she was paroled, and then
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: eventually she died four years later in nineteen forty four.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: How the hell did she get out of there?
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: I know? Her role in the crimes remained controversial. Some
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: saw her as a manipulative accomplice, while others viewed her
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: as mentally unstable and dominated by her son. Her conflicting statements,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: though they ensured that her true motivations were never fully understood.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: As for Christine Collins, she continued to search long after
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: the courts had finished their work. She pursued legal action
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: against the LAPD and Captain J. J. Jones, winning a
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: judgment of ten eight hundred dollars, but despite repeat attempts,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: she was never able to collect the money, though Captain
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Jones retired without making sure that award was paid. Of course,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: she never stopped believing that her son might still be alive.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: She followed up on reported sightings, corresponded with officials, and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: investigated any possible lead, no matter how unlikely. Even after
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Gordon's death, she held on to the idea that Walter
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: could have escaped or been taken somewhere else. Her persistence
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: turned her into an advocate for victim's rights and police accountability.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: She worked with activists such as Reverend Gustav Briegleb and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: exposed corruption to mistreatment within the LAPD. Over time, her
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: case became a symbol of institutional failure and the dangers
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: of unchecked authority. Christine Collins eventually passed away in December
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty four, less than a week before her
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: seventy sixth birthday, and she was laid to rest with
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: a photograph of Walter placed beside her oh boy. In
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: the end, the Wineville Chicken Coop murders left behind no
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: simple conclusion. They exposed weakness in law enforcement. They demonstrated
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: how easily vulnerable children could be exploited, and showed how
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: truth could be buried under pride, fear, and bureaucracy. Nearly
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: a century later, the disappearance of Walter Collins remains unresolved,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: his fate still technically unknown, and his story continues to
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: raise questions like how is Gordon Northcott able to abduct, abuse,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: and kill young boys while operating in plain sight for
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: more than two years? He hid behind the appearance of
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: a small business owner running a chicken ranch in a
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: quiet rural town. There were warning signs though neighbors noticed
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: strained behaviors, a complaint was made about mistreatment on the property,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: yet none of these signals were taken seriously until a
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: family member forced authorities to act. The investigation at Wineville
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: finally brought Gordon's crimes into the open, but even then
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: the full truth remained out of reach. Bodies were destroyed,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: evidence was incomplete, and confessions were withdrawn over and over again,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: and important details while they were lost forever. But yet
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: still we do not know the ultimate fate of Walter Collins.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: Although Sandford Clark identified him, and Sarah Northcott confessed to
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: his murder. The lack of physical evidence, well, it meant
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: that his death was never legally proven, and Gordon shifting
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: stories only deepened the mystery. By refusing to give a
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: clear final account, he ensured that Walter's mother would never
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: receive definitive closure. Christine Collins's life became defined by that uncertainty.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: She fought a police department, won her case, and exposed misconduct,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: yet she never recovered what had mattered most, what she
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: was fighting for. She spent decades following rumors, tracking possible sighting,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: and hoping that her son might still be alive somewhere.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: Her refusal to give up became both her strength and
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: her burden. And that's the story of the Wineville Chicken
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: Coop murders.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: Well, Gordon was just a complete asshole to the very end. Eh,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: he was a lost younger than I expected him to be.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean we talked about his age right at
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: the beginning, like he was like, what nineteen or something
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: when we first got the ranch.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: That is so young, And I do kind of like
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: that the mom didn't lose hope, you know, in a way.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But also, it's sad.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: It kind of seems like you would it kind of
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: seems like he wouldn't be alive, right.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we have someone who can literally confess to
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: his murder and is incarcerated for it. We have someone
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: else there who is testifying that he was there and
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: he was murdered, so we have a witness to it
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: as well. The thing is, it's the words of people.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: That's all we have to account for his death. There's
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: zero evidence to follow it, so technically speaking, circumstantial.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: So I imagine none of these bodies have ever been found.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: Then not fully No, there's only some remnants that were
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: found on the property. And I can't remember how many
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: bones fragments it was, I said earlier on.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: But like when they went and dug the bodies up
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: and put them somewhere else, wherever they put them, they
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: were never found.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: No fifty one separate bone fragments were cataloged.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Oh that's so terrible. This is an awfully sad story.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have whether it was the bodies were moved,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: or whether it was the lie had destroyed it, a combination,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: that's all that remained. But there was enough within those
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: bone fragments to confirm some of them, just unfortunately not Walter.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: Which leaves the mom you know, to want to wonder, right.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, chasing answers that unfortunately she'll never get because A
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: the guy's dead, not her son, the guy who is
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: responsible for it. And B he's just manipulating and lying
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: and playing with the whole storyline. Whether he's got a
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: screw loose and he's doing it, you know, because he's
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: unaware and he's just that wildly out of it, or
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: B he's just a straight up psychotic asshole. We don't know.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: I guess probably both, probably a mix of both. Yeah,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: either way, he's a douche canoe. I know that.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm good for her for just fighting too right
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: to the end and how holding people accountable and stuff
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: for their actions.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: So I agree, yeah for her. Yeah, And you are right.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: There is a bit of a survival story within this
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: with Sanford. He survived more than two years out on
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: a ranch of hell, and not only that, he fought
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: through a lot of it and made sure that he
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: was there to testify tell the stories. He led our
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: investigators to gravesites. He is one hundred percent the badass
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: of the day, so I want to give that to him.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: I also kind of want to give it to Christine
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: as well for her fighting for her son. So we
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: have two badasses of the day as that. We have
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: Christine and Sanford both badasses of the day here officially.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree with that for sure.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well with that, I just want to say thank
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: you for being here. We appreciate you. We are an
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: independent podcast research host. All of it is on our
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: little lonesome. There's no big corporation pull in our strings.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: It's just us. Not just us, though, it's also you.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: We appreciate you. We couldn't be doing it without you,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: so thank you so much for your support. Yeah that's
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: all I'm really going to say today. Thank you very
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: much and until next
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: Time, stay wicked.