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It Will Be Worth It with Ed Chen · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gamick
0:03
Speaker 1: person I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to
0:07
Speaker 1: helping those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank
0:10
Speaker 1: you to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting
0:14
Speaker 1: this show. Here we go, so five for three to one,
0:18
Speaker 1: our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
0:21
Speaker 1: have as my guest today, Ed Chen Ed.
0:23
Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you having me guy. Nice to see you awesome.
0:28
Speaker 1: So. Ed is a registered certified Clinical counselor and approved
0:32
Speaker 1: Clinical supervisor, also the lead trainer at the DBT Center
0:36
Speaker 1: of Greater Vancouver and a Senior clinician at the DBT
0:41
Speaker 1: Clinic of Greater Vancouver. Ed has extensive experience in delivering
0:46
Speaker 1: dialectical behavioral therapy to high risk adults, youths and families
0:51
Speaker 1: experiencing concerns such as suicidality, self harm, impulsivity, depression, anxiety, trauma,
0:57
Speaker 1: and addictions. It also as spitable background in DBT program
1:01
Speaker 1: development and government agencies, community services and schools. All right, Ed, obviously,
1:08
Speaker 1: just a little bit about you before we go and
1:10
Speaker 1: share with our listeners where you're from originally and where
1:13
Speaker 1: you are currently.
1:14
Speaker 2: By the way, I never thought my bio was that
1:16
Speaker 2: long until you read it out loud. Indication to shore
1:22
Speaker 2: it a little bit. But I'm originally I was born
1:27
Speaker 2: in Taipei, Taiwan. I moved to Canada when I was
1:32
Speaker 2: ten years old. Actually it's under the impression that I
1:35
Speaker 2: was going on vacation. This was my dad told us.
1:39
Speaker 2: And then uh oh, twenty years later when I'm thirty,
1:44
Speaker 2: I'm like, we do we pay taxes or vacation. This
1:48
Speaker 2: is how it works. I mean, there there's been a
1:52
Speaker 2: realization that, you know, perhaps this is my new home.
1:56
Speaker 2: So that that was a big piece of my life,
1:59
Speaker 2: moving from a whole different culture to a new culture.
2:03
Speaker 2: A lot of stressors in the home, lot of stressors individually,
2:08
Speaker 2: you know, collectively and also emotionally, psychologically and obviously culturally
2:14
Speaker 2: so but you know, also a huge learning experience for
2:17
Speaker 2: all of us.
2:20
Speaker 1: What age did you go on vacation?
2:23
Speaker 2: Ten years old?
2:25
Speaker 1: Ten?
2:25
Speaker 2: Okay?
2:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one can guess. But why did your
2:33
Speaker 1: parents not tell you you guys were going?
2:37
Speaker 2: I am I'm not sure. I think partially perhaps it's
2:41
Speaker 2: probably difficult to explain the concept of immigration to me
2:45
Speaker 2: and my younger brother. My younger brothers five at the time,
2:47
Speaker 2: so for him it's probably even more difficult to understand
2:50
Speaker 2: the whole concept, like, you know, this is you're not
2:53
Speaker 2: going to live here anymore, and your friends are no
2:56
Speaker 2: longer going to see you, and everything's going to be different.
3:00
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a lot of when we left,
3:05
Speaker 2: you know, we said goodbye to you know, I went
3:07
Speaker 2: to the school and then kind of told the school,
3:09
Speaker 2: and then we say goodbye to my friends. But I
3:11
Speaker 2: still didn't understand the whole concept until it really didn't
3:15
Speaker 2: kick until perhaps the early twenties and I realized, oh,
3:20
Speaker 2: this this is this is home now and that is
3:25
Speaker 2: still home back there, but it's this is where I
3:28
Speaker 2: am at this moment.
3:30
Speaker 1: So how do things evolve such set you get into
3:35
Speaker 1: this field.
3:38
Speaker 2: My family comes from a medical background, so my dad
3:42
Speaker 2: was a doctor. My younger brother is currently an is
3:46
Speaker 2: surgeon here in British Columbia. So a lot of medicine
3:51
Speaker 2: in my family. And you know, the typical Asian tradition
3:56
Speaker 2: wants children to pursue either medicine in or law. I
4:02
Speaker 2: did not. I was actually very inclined into the arts.
4:06
Speaker 2: I was very musical when I was younger, I really
4:10
Speaker 2: enjoy music. I want to pursue that, but didn't fit
4:16
Speaker 2: the mold of the family. So in high school, actually
4:21
Speaker 2: we had to do a project. You know, in Canada,
4:23
Speaker 2: this is this classical planning, so I'm not sure if
4:26
Speaker 2: the United States is something that they do in secondary schools,
4:30
Speaker 2: but you have to pick a career and kind of
4:32
Speaker 2: study it and present itself, you know, sort of a
4:34
Speaker 2: way for you to career plan at a young age.
4:37
Speaker 2: And I'm you know, they know that's probably not we're
4:41
Speaker 2: going to pursue, but it's a good start. So I
4:46
Speaker 2: sort of found something that is a synthesis between the
4:49
Speaker 2: arts and the you know, the medical field, which is
4:54
Speaker 2: psychology and you know, psychiatry, and I did a project
4:57
Speaker 2: on that, and that is sort of the start of
5:02
Speaker 2: my journey into becoming somebody who's you know, works some
5:06
Speaker 2: mental health. And I think partially I was drawn to
5:10
Speaker 2: that is also the amount of difficulty that experience in
5:15
Speaker 2: my teenage years and also the you know, the conflicts
5:19
Speaker 2: and the the emotional emotional turbulence I saw in my family.
5:23
Speaker 2: And I think I may have not known at the time,
5:26
Speaker 2: but I think you know, your your heart always goes
5:30
Speaker 2: to where the soul comes from.
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Speaker 1: So I think partially that's what it always goes to,
5:36
Speaker 1: where the soul comes from. Say more about that. That's interesting.
5:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I mean depends on what your
5:44
Speaker 2: belief is. You know what your definition the soul is.
5:47
Speaker 2: You know what I mean is that you know what
5:53
Speaker 2: you what your internal wisdom kind of tells you what
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Speaker 2: you need to do comes from a place where encapsulates
6:01
Speaker 2: this entire experience that you have and which is coming,
6:04
Speaker 2: encapsulates the past, present, and hopefully the future if you
6:08
Speaker 2: continue to live. So there is always a place where
6:15
Speaker 2: you know, you can buck against it. You know, we're
6:17
Speaker 2: willful from time to time and we try to not
6:19
Speaker 2: accept reality. But the reality itself that's yours is never
6:24
Speaker 2: going to go away. And that's what I mean is
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Speaker 2: your heart, you know what, if you choose to do
6:29
Speaker 2: what you need to do, is always going to go
6:31
Speaker 2: back to this place, this wisdom where it kind of
6:34
Speaker 2: capsulates everything that's in your reality. And you know, for
6:37
Speaker 2: a very long time, I reject that reality. My family
6:40
Speaker 2: that you know, we're you know, and there's a big
6:42
Speaker 2: piece of you know, the self hatreds I am not
6:45
Speaker 2: an immigrant. I am obviously, I'm the same as everybody
6:48
Speaker 2: else and trying to deny the you know, the traditions
6:51
Speaker 2: of my family and you know, seeing the difficulties of
6:54
Speaker 2: my parents going through, my brother's going through, it's like,
6:57
Speaker 2: if this is not happening, this is just something that is,
7:00
Speaker 2: you know, a temporary thing. Now it's it's not a thing,
7:05
Speaker 2: and the fact is it's there and eventually you go back, yeah,
7:12
Speaker 2: you have You will go back to that place and
7:14
Speaker 2: you have to face it in some way, shape or form.
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Speaker 1: So you talked about the tension in the house, what
7:24
Speaker 1: your parents were going through. Was it a are you
7:26
Speaker 1: speaking of the direct result of going into Canada? Yeah,
7:32
Speaker 1: I mean what processes.
7:34
Speaker 2: Coming from a different country is a huge change, right,
7:37
Speaker 2: So that transition elicits a tremendse amount of stress. And
7:40
Speaker 2: I didn't know this data point until later on my
7:42
Speaker 2: life and my training is apparently one of the number
7:45
Speaker 2: on CAUs mental health concerns is immigration because of the
7:49
Speaker 2: significant transitions that's required, you know, regardless of the content,
7:54
Speaker 2: you could be a refugee or a you know, voluntary immigrant,
7:59
Speaker 2: so on and so forth. So I saw that firsthand.
8:02
Speaker 2: I saw that, you know, I witnessed that firsthand. There's
8:05
Speaker 2: a lot of conflict with my parents because of the
8:09
Speaker 2: financial stress, the emotional stress, cultural stress. Obviously you know,
8:14
Speaker 2: they spoke some of the language, but again understanding of
8:17
Speaker 2: how things work is a dramatic change, and so a
8:21
Speaker 2: lot of times there's a lot of parentification on me,
8:24
Speaker 2: especially since I'm of the oldest in the family, where
8:26
Speaker 2: I was the most flu in the language because obviously
8:30
Speaker 2: i'm you know, in the in the system, learning the
8:32
Speaker 2: language and navigating, so I have to translate for them.
8:36
Speaker 2: I became the representation for the family at a age
8:40
Speaker 2: where that's you know, developmentally not exactly appropriate, and but
8:46
Speaker 2: things need to be done. So and you know, a
8:49
Speaker 2: lot of the stress, you know, has led to a
8:51
Speaker 2: lot of high risk behaviors, you know, both with my
8:54
Speaker 2: mother and also myself. I'm you know, in some aspects
8:59
Speaker 2: my younger brother during the younger years.
9:03
Speaker 1: So you you're in high school, college, what do you
9:09
Speaker 1: what are you thinking at this point in terms of
9:12
Speaker 1: where you want to go? What do you what? What
9:14
Speaker 1: paths you want to pursue profession.
9:17
Speaker 2: This this is an interesting question. So I studied clinical
9:25
Speaker 2: psychology at University British Columbia. My undergraduate studies, I was
9:30
Speaker 2: an honors program, so again, high achieving student I had
9:34
Speaker 2: to be as part of the pressure from the family.
9:39
Speaker 2: So I was going into the research route into clinical psychology.
9:43
Speaker 2: I kind of want to study, you know, really one
9:49
Speaker 2: one of the things that we're looking at in my
9:51
Speaker 2: undergrad study was the the brain structure and specific brain
9:57
Speaker 2: waves when it comes to specific personal traits. Specifically in
10:04
Speaker 2: my honors thesis was the you know, antisocial psychopathy aspect.
10:13
Speaker 2: And I was doing it because it was something that
10:16
Speaker 2: was you know again it's it's an honorest thing in
10:20
Speaker 2: undergrad and I just remember fourth year I was in
10:24
Speaker 2: the history of psychology class. It was a fourth year course,
10:28
Speaker 2: and the professor walks in and he goes, imagine this
10:32
Speaker 2: Monday morning and you are forty years old, which is
10:36
Speaker 2: around my age right now, I'm forty one. You wake up?
10:39
Speaker 2: What are you doing? And I just remember I sat
10:42
Speaker 2: there and I looked at him in my head, when
10:46
Speaker 2: not fucking this? I have exact though, And that was
10:52
Speaker 2: the moment I realized, you know, perhaps I need to
10:56
Speaker 2: change direction. Maybe research it's not for me. And I
11:00
Speaker 2: kind of took a few years off to become a
11:02
Speaker 2: teacher in a high school for a few years, working
11:07
Speaker 2: as a resource teacher, working with students with learning disabilities
11:12
Speaker 2: or special needs, specifically auto and special disorder. And that's
11:16
Speaker 2: why I found, you know, perhaps counseling and clinical counseling
11:21
Speaker 2: is something I like to do, and I went back
11:22
Speaker 2: to graduate school to study that at simmer Fraser University.
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Speaker 1: During this time, ed, were you experiencing pressure from your parents, like,
11:30
Speaker 1: you know, what the hell are you doing? How can
11:32
Speaker 1: we not pursuing becoming a physician or engineer or whatever?
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Speaker 2: I mean, they never explicitly said it, but it's always
11:43
Speaker 2: very indirectly referenced, mentioning that, you know, being a physician
11:47
Speaker 2: is a lifelong skill, you'll never be unemployed. Being a
11:51
Speaker 2: physician is something that people will always respect you for,
11:57
Speaker 2: which really kind of took away from who I was,
12:03
Speaker 2: you know, and who I am still is that, you know,
12:08
Speaker 2: who I am was defined by this profession and this
12:12
Speaker 2: expertise rather than who I am as a person. So
12:15
Speaker 2: again that that was a very difficult thing to accept.
12:18
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm glad I'm able to come to
12:21
Speaker 2: acceptance of that, you know, at this age, but it
12:24
Speaker 2: took a while, took a lot of direction, change, took
12:27
Speaker 2: a lot of time, took a lot of skill use
12:30
Speaker 2: and effort.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that type of pressure, consistent
12:38
Speaker 1: maybe not overt pressure can often become kind of the foundation,
12:45
Speaker 1: like this paradigmatic foundation from which into which we grow,
12:52
Speaker 1: and it can oftentimes become insidious, and I don't know,
12:56
Speaker 1: I think oftentimes there can be like I'm not good enough,
13:00
Speaker 1: I'm not living up to my parents' expectations. But all right,
13:07
Speaker 1: so what was the interest in working with that specific
13:10
Speaker 1: population the would you say, intellectual developmental disabilities? I mean,
13:16
Speaker 1: that's pretty intense.
13:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it was. You know, my my
13:27
Speaker 2: clinical studies were very behaviorally based, a lot of intervention
13:32
Speaker 2: I learned and undergraduates, so naturally that was an intervention
13:37
Speaker 2: that was effective in the school system, and it was
13:40
Speaker 2: a good fit when it comes to working with these youths.
13:44
Speaker 2: So I think it's more of a fit of a
13:45
Speaker 2: skill rather than the fit of passion. I mean, I
13:49
Speaker 2: enjoy working with the youth and you know, the children,
13:51
Speaker 2: and you know, there was quite rewarding at that time.
13:56
Speaker 2: I don't think I had this intention so that's what
13:58
Speaker 2: I want to do I think it was more of
14:01
Speaker 2: I don't know what the hell I'm doing, so let's
14:03
Speaker 2: put my skills to use, let's get a paycheck, and
14:07
Speaker 2: then we'll go from there. It's sort of let's just
14:10
Speaker 2: get back in the gym and work out and see
14:14
Speaker 2: what we do with these muscles that we develop. And
14:17
Speaker 2: I'm glad we able to find something from that. But
14:21
Speaker 2: sometimes change is slow and just got to be patient,
14:23
Speaker 2: and that's one thing I definitely learned.
14:26
Speaker 1: So when did your introduction to DBT take place? How
14:30
Speaker 1: did that what did that look like?
14:32
Speaker 2: It's actually in post post graduate school, you know, at
14:37
Speaker 2: my internship site. So at that time doctor Marshall Lenehan's Institute,
14:45
Speaker 2: the Lenahan Institute or now it's called Behavioral Institute was
14:48
Speaker 2: doing trainings with the the internship site that was you know,
14:55
Speaker 2: enteraning at I was able to expose to a lot
14:58
Speaker 2: of the modality, the skills, the strategies, and the programming itself,
15:02
Speaker 2: and that really I really gom onto it because again
15:05
Speaker 2: DBT to self is a behavioral therapy more evans application
15:09
Speaker 2: of it. Of course, then that kind of lined up
15:12
Speaker 2: with my undergraduate studies and again with the skills I
15:16
Speaker 2: learn in graduate school. Also when it comes to clinical counseling,
15:20
Speaker 2: and it kind of just fit together. And then also
15:22
Speaker 2: I started to see that some of the things that
15:24
Speaker 2: addresses is really some of the things that my mother
15:26
Speaker 2: experiences throughout her entire life. You know, she's not formally diagnosed, however,
15:31
Speaker 2: you know, there is a lot of significant traits when
15:34
Speaker 2: it comes to borline personally disorder. So that also kind
15:38
Speaker 2: of gave me some answers as to, you know, how
15:41
Speaker 2: things came to be, why they're happening, and is not
15:45
Speaker 2: necessary anybody's fault or anybody's to blame, and it's just
15:48
Speaker 2: this perfect storm that we're in and there's a way out.
15:51
Speaker 2: So it's sort of you know, universe is an interesting
15:54
Speaker 2: way of you know, putting things in front of you
15:56
Speaker 2: as opportunities. And that was one of the moments where
15:58
Speaker 2: it's kind of like, I think, think there's some of
16:01
Speaker 2: the answers here, and I've been looking for that for
16:03
Speaker 2: a long time.
16:05
Speaker 1: So when you started working with kids or other clients
16:11
Speaker 1: and what was that like for you? I mean, what
16:15
Speaker 1: do you what enabled you to do that? Was there
16:19
Speaker 1: just this compassion did you see yourself as a younger kid?
16:22
Speaker 2: What was it I mean, when when it comes to
16:27
Speaker 2: working with yous, I had a very difficult a lescence
16:31
Speaker 2: because of you know, late childhood with the immigration and
16:34
Speaker 2: then the extent of a culturation that needs to occur
16:38
Speaker 2: in a very rapid rate. During early lsss of the
16:41
Speaker 2: AO lessons, I myself was suicidal in my teenage years.
16:46
Speaker 2: There's one instance why I attempt to drown myself in
16:48
Speaker 2: the bathtub. So when when it comes to these hardships
16:52
Speaker 2: and you know, misery that oftentimes youth experience, I remember
16:58
Speaker 2: what it was like. And I also I have a
17:01
Speaker 2: time machine in in essence is I am, you know,
17:05
Speaker 2: thirty years in the future or twenty five years in
17:08
Speaker 2: the future when it comes to some of these youths,
17:11
Speaker 2: And that's where working with them, you know, I can,
17:16
Speaker 2: I realize I can provide some of that you know,
17:21
Speaker 2: future aspect for them, not saying that's what things will
17:24
Speaker 2: turn out for them, but letting them know that I
17:27
Speaker 2: was in the very similar situations. You your life is unique,
17:31
Speaker 2: but I know what that pain is like. I felt
17:33
Speaker 2: that pain. I experienced those moments, and now I'm in
17:37
Speaker 2: the future and I'm not telling you will be better,
17:41
Speaker 2: but I'm telling you it'll be worth it. So are
17:45
Speaker 2: you willing at this moment to perhaps do what you
17:49
Speaker 2: can to do what you're willing to change some things?
17:52
Speaker 2: And that oftentimes resonates with you.
17:54
Speaker 1: It's quite a bit to the degree that you're comfortable
17:58
Speaker 1: talking about it. What it up to the attempt in
18:04
Speaker 1: the bathtub? And how did how does that work? How
18:08
Speaker 1: do you try to drown yourself?
18:11
Speaker 2: I mean it wasn't very sophisticated, obviously, because I was
18:15
Speaker 2: sixteen years old, so I didn't think it through. I
18:17
Speaker 2: thought that would be the easiest way, and it turns
18:22
Speaker 2: out to be very difficult because your body naturally struggles
18:24
Speaker 2: and gets yourself out of the water. So I was
18:28
Speaker 2: not successful, obviously, thankfully. And I think what led up
18:33
Speaker 2: to it is It's actually one thing I remind a
18:35
Speaker 2: lot of people I work with is the most invaliding
18:38
Speaker 2: thing you can do to a human being is to
18:42
Speaker 2: take their choice away. You know, it doesn't matter what
18:45
Speaker 2: choice you make. Ei there's a choice, choice to stay
18:48
Speaker 2: miserable or a choice to solve the problem. You have
18:51
Speaker 2: a choice, and it's in that choice that you have
18:55
Speaker 2: the essence of wisdom, and you know the the essence
19:01
Speaker 2: of being a human being. And I think during my
19:06
Speaker 2: AO lessons is there's been just moments after moments where
19:10
Speaker 2: I wasn't my choices weren't honored. You know, if I
19:14
Speaker 2: chose misery, it was ridiculed, saying you need to get
19:17
Speaker 2: over it. You know, you can't be like this in
19:21
Speaker 2: a country where you are different. You need to be tougher,
19:25
Speaker 2: you need to be stronger. And during moments where perhaps
19:31
Speaker 2: I was doing something I don't want to do, I
19:33
Speaker 2: was told that there's something you need to do. So
19:36
Speaker 2: there's this repeated chronic invalidation telling me that you know
19:41
Speaker 2: you are something you are wrong. And I think with
19:45
Speaker 2: enough of that, over time, what's going to happen is
19:49
Speaker 2: your own self is going to say, hey, since you
19:52
Speaker 2: were the problem, then let's solve the problem by SOLF disrupting.
19:56
Speaker 2: And I think that's where it came about. And I
19:59
Speaker 2: think that's that's also important to know, is that there's
20:03
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with you. Is it's just this perfect storm
20:06
Speaker 2: you're in and everybody's telling the wrong thing. You just
20:09
Speaker 2: need to find where you make sense in the world
20:13
Speaker 2: that you are in. You know, from one of my
20:15
Speaker 2: mentors tell me, it's kind of you are a rose
20:20
Speaker 2: in the tulip garden. It's time to find some roses.
20:24
Speaker 1: I love that, all right, So let's talk about what
20:27
Speaker 1: you're doing now. How did that come about? Lead trainer
20:33
Speaker 1: at the DPT Center of Greater Vancouver and your senior
20:36
Speaker 1: clinician at the DBT Clinic of Greater Vancouver. What do
20:39
Speaker 1: you do there? Specifically? Who are you working with?
20:43
Speaker 2: So? I lead both the adult and a lesson comprehensive
20:47
Speaker 2: DVT programming here at the clinic. So we offer the
20:50
Speaker 2: full comprehensive program comes to DVT individual therapy skills training
20:55
Speaker 2: after our phone coaching, parent coaching and family coaching for
20:59
Speaker 2: the AO lessons. I also, you know, lead a number
21:04
Speaker 2: of trainings with my colleagues here, you know, disseminating information
21:09
Speaker 2: that is, you know, research based and the latest as
21:13
Speaker 2: as latest as possible when it comes to the application
21:17
Speaker 2: of DBT, either standard DBT or the specialized protocols.
21:23
Speaker 1: How do you work with the understanding that everyone's different,
21:26
Speaker 1: every situation is different. Walk us through what it looks
21:30
Speaker 1: like working with someone who is experiencing suicidality sidalidation with DBT.
21:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, one of the things that we started a
21:44
Speaker 2: lot of people think DBT is very different. It's different
21:46
Speaker 2: in some ways, but in essence it is still it's
21:51
Speaker 2: still a therapy. It's it's still collaboration between two individuals
21:55
Speaker 2: and two equals. So the first thing we actually start with,
21:58
Speaker 2: which is all modality, starts with informed consent and we
22:01
Speaker 2: look at the foundation of this is a voluntary service.
22:05
Speaker 2: And a lot of clients would gloss over there like
22:06
Speaker 2: they heard there's a million times, right, they heard it
22:08
Speaker 2: from every therapists they talk to. I get it's voluntary.
22:11
Speaker 2: I'm hearing my only chord yet that is in itself,
22:15
Speaker 2: you know, back to what I was talking about is
22:18
Speaker 2: you're making a choice for yourself, which is the most
22:22
Speaker 2: validating thing you can do for you. And a lot
22:27
Speaker 2: of times then you know, as we move on in treatment,
22:30
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to suicidality, you know, they would
22:35
Speaker 2: there's wilfulness to it, right, they go, you know, why
22:38
Speaker 2: can't I do it? And what I oftentimes let clients know,
22:43
Speaker 2: remember this is voluntary. If you choose to die, that's
22:47
Speaker 2: your choice. The only thing is I can't participate that
22:52
Speaker 2: with you. It's not that I don't want to. It's
22:55
Speaker 2: not because misery is a choice. Because if it's true,
22:58
Speaker 2: only you can feel how you feel, then only you
23:01
Speaker 2: know what that's like. It's not that we don't want
23:04
Speaker 2: to participate with you, is that it's a solitary experience.
23:08
Speaker 2: And now, oftentimes people report is, how do I know
23:10
Speaker 2: I'm a misery? Is because you experience profound loneliness that
23:14
Speaker 2: no one in this world understands. What's it like for you?
23:17
Speaker 2: That is because you're a misery. That's because none of
23:20
Speaker 2: us know what that's like. That's unique to you. Pain. However,
23:23
Speaker 2: on the other side, I let people know that it's
23:27
Speaker 2: about something we all experience as human beings. I know
23:29
Speaker 2: what that pain is like. I can participate in that
23:32
Speaker 2: with you. I can share that with you. I can
23:34
Speaker 2: hopefully find ways to help you to not feel that pain.
23:39
Speaker 2: Yet I need your help to choose voluntarily not misery.
23:45
Speaker 2: And that's usually where we start, and we give the
23:48
Speaker 2: control back to the individuals. And that's often a very
23:50
Speaker 2: powerful first step, right.
23:53
Speaker 1: Right, which oftentimes can be what uncomfortable for people, like
24:00
Speaker 1: what what is this person doing? Is this person this
24:04
Speaker 1: person is trusting me. I don't know what to do
24:05
Speaker 1: with that. Oh my god, this person is giving me autonomy.
24:08
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with that, and they
24:10
Speaker 1: could also be very empowering, right, so from the get
24:13
Speaker 1: go you're kind of in a sense empowering the client
24:18
Speaker 1: in front of you.
24:20
Speaker 2: And I often have to remind the people I work
24:22
Speaker 2: with at discomfort and they bring that up oftentimes much
24:26
Speaker 2: like you say, guy, is doesn't mean something's wrong. This
24:29
Speaker 2: come for me, something is new and I kind of
24:33
Speaker 2: will review quickly as I imagine, just think about everything
24:35
Speaker 2: you've done for the first time, first date, first day
24:37
Speaker 2: at school, first dish, you taste it, how comfortable was it?
24:41
Speaker 2: None of it was comfortable? And I also refined remind
24:44
Speaker 2: them that on the other side of that discomfort is victory.
24:48
Speaker 2: On the other side of comfort is misery. So it's
24:52
Speaker 2: up to them as to what they want to do.
24:55
Speaker 1: So what might happen next? As you after you kind
25:00
Speaker 1: of lay the foundation here with this.
25:03
Speaker 2: Trust in a sense, Yeah, you know, if they choose
25:07
Speaker 2: not to stay miserable or make things worse, they choose
25:10
Speaker 2: to solve the problem or you know, change the way
25:12
Speaker 2: they feel about it or tolerately accept it. Then really
25:15
Speaker 2: the work comes in where we look at, you know,
25:18
Speaker 2: what is the function those behavior? Oftentimes when you look
25:21
Speaker 2: at suicidelity, there is there serves two very specifunction, either
25:26
Speaker 2: to avoid or to seek relief. And you know, this
25:30
Speaker 2: is where it's important to look at. The intention is
25:32
Speaker 2: do you did you really want to die or did
25:36
Speaker 2: you want to feel better? Or did you want some relief?
25:40
Speaker 2: And one way I usually post to people is, let's
25:42
Speaker 2: say you can take the pills that you took, knowing
25:47
Speaker 2: that they won't kill you, there's no harm, no nothing
25:50
Speaker 2: will happen to you, but you'll feel better one hundred percent.
25:53
Speaker 2: Would you take those pills? And oftimes they say, yeah,
25:58
Speaker 2: I would love it, that's great, Like did exist? And
26:01
Speaker 2: I said, well, I don't know, I'm not I'm not
26:04
Speaker 2: a physician, not to ask my family. And it's that
26:10
Speaker 2: kind of and I kind of explain to them, is
26:12
Speaker 2: then your intention? Actually, I mean there may be some,
26:14
Speaker 2: but it wasn't exactly folly to die, because if you
26:16
Speaker 2: really want to die, it doesn't matter how you feel,
26:19
Speaker 2: you just want to die. And there are people who
26:20
Speaker 2: choose to die that's their intention, that they're they're finished
26:24
Speaker 2: with their time here on this planet, that they wish
26:28
Speaker 2: to end it, and then how they feel of this
26:30
Speaker 2: relief or avoidance doesn't matter. So that's very important. You know,
26:35
Speaker 2: majority of the clients that come work with us is
26:38
Speaker 2: they don't really want to die. They just want their
26:40
Speaker 2: life to be to mean something and to be something
26:44
Speaker 2: that they can you know, feel hopeful for, and dying
26:48
Speaker 2: was just a way to hopefully avoid the pain. However,
26:52
Speaker 2: at the same time, you also lose the things that
26:54
Speaker 2: you're hoping for that would be worth it.
26:58
Speaker 1: So I could imagine the path forward if someone answers, no,
27:03
Speaker 1: of course I don't want to die. I want to
27:05
Speaker 1: feel better. But what of those people who say I
27:09
Speaker 1: want to die?
27:10
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. So if they truly want to die, at
27:14
Speaker 2: that point, you know, then it's we we should let
27:17
Speaker 2: them know. Is there's nothing I can do is at
27:19
Speaker 2: this point is my my professional, ethical and legal duty
27:23
Speaker 2: is to maintain safety for you. I have to maintain
27:26
Speaker 2: my professionality. So at this point as emergency services need
27:30
Speaker 2: to be involved. And that has this happened before, yes,
27:33
Speaker 2: you know many times. And it's then in those moments
27:38
Speaker 2: that when clients do come back, they realize, you know what,
27:41
Speaker 2: I would like to make a different choice now because
27:44
Speaker 2: they realize I can't participate in that with them. I
27:48
Speaker 2: would love to, but at this point it's on you,
27:51
Speaker 2: and oftentimes people don't want to do things by themselves.
27:55
Speaker 2: It's it's a very it's it's it's hell on earth
27:59
Speaker 2: to be part of that profound loneliness. We want to
28:01
Speaker 2: be active participants in the ongoings and the things in
28:04
Speaker 2: our lives. And then that's the moment they will make
28:07
Speaker 2: a different choice. But that won't happen until you give
28:10
Speaker 2: them the opportunity, allow them to make the choice to
28:14
Speaker 2: stay miserable or you know, to choose suicide. But at
28:18
Speaker 2: that point we have to intervene ethically as professionals to
28:22
Speaker 2: maintain safety. So they might go to the hospital for
28:25
Speaker 2: a few days and come back and so on and
28:26
Speaker 2: so forth.
28:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say, your your own experience,
28:33
Speaker 1: you know, sharing listening to you share your own experience,
28:39
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's intense what you went through. It
28:45
Speaker 1: felt to me like, you know, you had pressures coming
28:49
Speaker 1: at you from many different angles in your youth. And
28:55
Speaker 1: not to say that it's not there now, but it
28:58
Speaker 1: feels to me like you're able to draw on that
29:03
Speaker 1: in the work you're doing now. Obviously, you know, what
29:09
Speaker 1: do you feel allows you to do this work.
29:12
Speaker 2: Now, I think is the actually one of the biggest
29:21
Speaker 2: skill when it comes to DBT, And it's also a choice.
29:24
Speaker 2: The moment to moment choice is the ability to accept
29:28
Speaker 2: is being able to see what is truly in front
29:31
Speaker 2: of you and then navigate it. And I clinician, yeah,
29:35
Speaker 2: as a clinician, and there's also as a person, you know, right,
29:39
Speaker 2: which is one of the skills I'm trying to teach
29:41
Speaker 2: my clients as we work together. And you know, am
29:45
Speaker 2: I still practicing? Of course? You know there's moments where
29:48
Speaker 2: I just I can't accept, you know, oftentimes when I
29:49
Speaker 2: lose something and I'm like, how do I not? You know,
29:52
Speaker 2: remember when I put my keys. And it's through the
29:58
Speaker 2: acceptance that you you and you learn that a moment
30:02
Speaker 2: is just a moment, good or bad, right or wrong?
30:05
Speaker 2: You know, amazing terrible that that is secondary because this
30:10
Speaker 2: is what's in front of you. And then is in
30:13
Speaker 2: those moments that when you're able to see what's in
30:15
Speaker 2: front of you and navigant. And the analogy often use
30:17
Speaker 2: is the windshield on your car. The windshield doesn't solve
30:20
Speaker 2: anything that's in front of you. It doesn't change directions,
30:23
Speaker 2: but it shows you exactly what it is, so then
30:26
Speaker 2: you can make a choice as to how you want
30:28
Speaker 2: to navigate and move your steering wheel, turn up your music,
30:31
Speaker 2: whatever you want to do in those moments. And when
30:34
Speaker 2: you do that, I realized there's this essential sense of
30:39
Speaker 2: validity that it makes sense now that this is the
30:42
Speaker 2: world that I'm in, and there's an essential goodness, not
30:46
Speaker 2: like things are good, but like it's just it's I'm
30:49
Speaker 2: part of something, And then you can make a choice
30:54
Speaker 2: is what you want to do, and that's I think
30:56
Speaker 2: that's the difference now. For a very long time, I
30:59
Speaker 2: rejected it. You know, I didn't want to be who
31:01
Speaker 2: I was because I was often told don't be who
31:03
Speaker 2: I am, and even my history with the you know,
31:08
Speaker 2: the the emotional difficulties, the suicidali often rejected that. You know,
31:13
Speaker 2: even during moments my early practice, I was like, you know,
31:16
Speaker 2: just be a therapist. You're here to help people that
31:18
Speaker 2: don't matter. At this moment, I realized that's not actually
31:21
Speaker 2: who I am, and that that helps me to understand
31:25
Speaker 2: the human condition so that I can connect with other humans.
31:29
Speaker 1: MM. Love that all, right, Ed, how do people learn
31:33
Speaker 1: more about you and what you're doing. It's the best way.
31:37
Speaker 2: Well, you can visit our website while our training center
31:39
Speaker 2: is the DBT Center of Greater Vancouver is DBTGV dot com.
31:44
Speaker 2: If you like to learn about clinical services, is DBT
31:47
Speaker 2: Clinic GV dot com. We also have a podcast that
31:50
Speaker 2: talks about you know, DBT. So I kind of input it.
31:57
Speaker 2: I don't do the production of it. I just kind
31:58
Speaker 2: of input information to help them create information. It's called
32:02
Speaker 2: this is DBT. You can go to this DBT dot com.
32:04
Speaker 2: It kind of talks about a topic from DBT. You
32:07
Speaker 2: know what happens individual therapy, how the therapist, what of
32:12
Speaker 2: their values are, stuff like that, so you know, hopefully
32:15
Speaker 2: the public can make an informed choice regarding their care
32:18
Speaker 2: and if DBT is truly for them. Awesome.
32:21
Speaker 1: All right, we'll have each of those linked up here
32:24
Speaker 1: at the Trauma Therapists Podcast dot com. Ed appreciate you
32:27
Speaker 1: and really appreciate you just being willing to share your
32:30
Speaker 1: own story. Love it.
32:32
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for having me.
32:34
Speaker 1: All right, We'll be in touch.
32:35
Speaker 2: Take care, Thanks guys,