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Loving a Broken Breed: Claire’s Story of Pugs, Care and Grief · Under The Fur

• speaker-0: Hello and welcome to this episode of Under the Fur. I've got Claire Ballo with me and we are super lucky to speak to her today because she's got a very interesting past with the pet industry. Dog training, dog grooming, pet shop owner, beekeeper and most importantly, pet owner. Pugs. Pugs. We're jumping straight with there. Let's pugs. Let's go with. So I first met you with your pug. speaker-1: Yes! with my Lulu. So Lulu came to me, think, what was she, when I got her, she must have been about eight or nine years old, I think. was older. Yeah, she was definitely an older pig and she was a heavy pig, wasn't she? speaker-0: with Lulu. She had some size to her. She did. speaker-1: meaty pig. So, pugs suffer from them, ⁓ It's a heavy pug thing. It's definitely a food thing, a heavy pug thing. unfortunately she came to me and I think I was a fifth or sixth home. And I found you because as everyone knows with the vet world, what's going on with the minute, the vets are all getting sold off, aren't they? So my vet practice got sold off. It didn't have the same vibe as before. speaker-0: She was a meaty pig! Wait! Sausage roll! Yes. speaker-1: I had had a break from having my previous two pugs, which had health problems, surprisingly, and I needed to be seen by somebody who knew what they were doing. So I'd taken along my pug, we'd had lots of tests, we were racking up some huge builds, and I just thought, I think there must be another way of doing this. I'm looking for somebody who's more into broken pugs and keeping me ticking over. And one of the last conversations I had with the vet that I was previously with was that he said to me, If it wasn't you taking her away, I wouldn't be letting you take her away today. speaker-0: as with he wanted to euthanize her. speaker-1: Yeah, because she had puggy health problems. So as we know with the puggy world, our puggies suffer from, I don't know how to pronounce it, is pugmolpathy where the back legs go? speaker-0: Yes, there's multiple things they can have. Yeah, there's a lot of things they can have going back, going on back there. ⁓ They can have problems with their hips. They can have problems with their spines. And of course, the one we know about is that they are brachycephalic. So short nosed can't cry. speaker-1: faces. ⁓ ⁓ as well, you've got that nice curly tail. So we've got lots of spinal deformities. ⁓ my first two Pugs, which I had, there were also rescues and they lasted till they were 16 years old. So that's quite good. I got them at three and a half. My girl, I noticed that she was walking with a strained gait where she was doing the ⁓ legs on one side and then both legs on the other side at the same time. can't remember what you call it. So where I'd previously had horses and I was used to a horsey gate, I started to notice when she got to about seven years old that she was walking like this. I didn't see my... So she was doing that. So off I popped and got referred to Stone Line with Wimbledon. And we did the trotting up and down and then they said, oh yeah, you've got Pugmar, see? And this would have been over 10, 15 years ago. Before we had everyone on the internet and everyone knew and was talking through all these things and communicating with each other. Should have been about seven or eight then when she was diagnosed. So it's a muscle wasting at the back, which involves then you thinking, do you do more exercise to strengthen our muscles or do you do less exercise? Is she with pain? No, she's not with pain. She's still barking and wanting to savage everyone. She's clappy. So we then went on to ⁓ Buggy. speaker-0: What was she then? speaker-1: A puggy and a buggy. And over 10 years ago, that was not the damn thing. speaker-0: Absolutely not. Now, this is everywhere. speaker-1: sausage buggies. Frenchy Yeah. ⁓ That's all gone ⁓ Yeah. So back the day I was really looked down on and people would be really rude to me about the whole pug with a buggy and you should put your dog down. ⁓ It's things of, I mean, is a good or a bad thing that things have changed that people are taking it more? Yeah. You've got a buggy and your dog's with it. doesn't really matter. Whereas back then it was like, It was really not good. People didn't like it at all. speaker-0: Yes. it's, I would say it's still a little bit that way. ⁓ Generally the disabled dogs that I work with, a lot of people are saying just euthanize. They don't understand there's still joy and quality of life with a disabled pet. speaker-1: until she was 16. But she, she wasn't, she wouldn't have been one for wheels. We didn't really have that sort of thing then. I mean, when they went off at Scotland, we did agility. I had two, I had her brother. I had two pugs. speaker-0: Is there footage? speaker-1: My friend Celia from the Dog and Handlers, who I went to agility with, so she was running it and she actually got a photographer with to take some pictures of us because I think she just thought no one's going to believe us. She had a professional photographer, poor man, lying with the mud. speaker-0: I want footage. ⁓ speaker-1: lying with the mud with flying pugs. ⁓ know, ⁓ friend Jeff, he shows ⁓ Mastiffs and Jack Russells. That's another mad stories. But he told me years ago that don't ⁓ buy another pug with the UK. ⁓ will get you a pug from somewhere with Europe because I've seen pugs running around with 30 degree heat. ⁓ is not the way you don't need to have ⁓ the problems that you're having. So when I had my first two, one of the first things that I had to do was I quickly realised I had to get rid of my car because I didn't have air conditioning. So I had an old three series that had to go. speaker-0: Yep. ⁓ And you think you'd be okay with the UK? Absolutely not. Did you choose Pax speaker-1: Nope. Nope. I think Pugs chose me. I used to... speaker-0: It wasn't a rescue the first time. speaker-1: Again. So I used to help out my friend, Nikki at Exxon K9 Rescue and I used to foster for her. So I've had loads of staffs, American Bulldogs. And then I decided to get a pet shop. And when you had staffs and American Bulldogs with the pet shop, what I found was, was I was losing customers. They just weren't people's cup of tea. They really weren't people's cup of tea. speaker-0: Right. mean, staff's a pretty decent dog. It's a shame they've gone out of fashion. They're absolutely bomb. speaker-1: so good. Hardy. Debonproof. I've known dogs, staffs get run over and they just... speaker-0: I was going to say, I usually say to people, a staff and a lorry meet, the lorry is written off, the staff will be okay. speaker-1: They're so good. And I could train a staff like that to do anything. They were fantastic. But it was customer perception. So then I got a phone call from a friend of Nicky's to say that she ran a boarding kennels with Bradford and she was a dog trainer. And she said, I've had these two dogs left with me. The owners unfortunately died. And the husband, he was a surgeon, very, very busy. Had a daughter as well, too busy. Could rehome the pugs. First of all, he wanted to leave the pugs with the kennel and visit them. But then she talks him out of it. So I drove up, funny enough on the cross day it was, drove up, picked them up and ended up the owner of two bugs. speaker-0: And did you know anything about pugs before then? No, just I'm not really sure anything can prepare you for it. speaker-1: Not really. It's a complete madness. Never. My friend thinks she's got PTSD from pug ownership. It's really stressful. My bank account got annihilated. So ⁓ I've got these two pugs and I've got a pet shop. my girl who was black used to sit on my counter because she was always a nice trim, but because the back legs started to go, she was just balancing on a... speaker-0: Yes, a lot. speaker-1: pair of legs that were completely bloody useless. Right. So she used to sit on my counter and I got known as the pet shop with the pug on the counter. people used to come and go and used to talk to her. My customers used to come and give her a massage. It is. speaker-0: It's hard not to love a pug. speaker-1: Do know what I think it is? I worked it out quite quickly was, do you know those manga cartoons? Yes. The eyes. Yes. That's it. Yeah. When you get drawn into the eyes, don't you? Why do they draw those cartoons like that with the big eyes and the women with the doe eyes? They do. Whereas a lot of dogs like collies and things, you know, they're not looking at you. They're not darting around. Whereas a pug will look at you and you just go, ⁓ just have what you want, mate. Just have it, it. Have it, have it. Trash the shop. Do what you like. speaker-0: I do. They stare into your soul. Maybe that's why they've all got weight issues. They're hypnotizing you into giving them snacks. speaker-1: Yeah, if you look online, all the pugs that are online and actually a lot of them now coming of age, so I don't know how they're going to make money out of them anymore. But a lot of them that are on there, they do say they look at them and they're just feeding them and it's the eyes. So I soon worked out at the time, I'd started a nice lady called Karen England. She was doing puppy classes for Sarah Whitehead, another well-known dog trainer. And she asked me to be her assistant. So then I used to go on a Monday night out to Chobham and I used to train at the RSPCA under Sarah Whitehead to be Karen's assistant and then work with Karen with the week. So Karen and I did puppy training classes for donkey's years together around like Wimbledon, Kinks and Barnes. We went everywhere and Karen had pugs as well, which she said was my fault. I thought she wanted a pug and I was like, yeah, get a pug. She, is. Disease. So she got her. speaker-0: The dude it can take. speaker-1: Pug, one of her pugs before I got my pugs, but she got a pug that was a big pug. So he was more like, you know, where you have the silverbacks with the jungle. he was a bruiser of a pug, but he would literally, you could train him all day, buster. He just wanted to train all day. He had more nose than most pugs and he had a lot of go. speaker-0: was a big. speaker-1: ⁓ Karen and I used to go and do, you know, you go on these like weekends of dog training and stuff like that, don't you, to keep up your skills. And she went on some weekends with him and people used to look at her go, you know, what's she coming with that? Cause they'd have their German shepherds and their colleagues and they'd be like, what's she doing with that? And then at the end of the day, people come up to her and say, I can't believe you're buster, your pug's still going. Yeah. He was fantastic. But like all of them. speaker-0: Do know what? They're a nightmare with the vets though. You can't do anything to them. speaker-1: cut their claws. ⁓ Don't look with their mouths. done today. speaker-0: them to get near them and you can't sedate them because they're brachycephalic. It's an absolute nightmare. You just kill them. Yeah. You can't look at their teeth, feet. You certainly can't clip their claws. You can get a stethoscope on them. They'll allow that. Maybe if you give them a biscuit. speaker-1: The Mayor. You can't touch They don't know they wouldn't eat the biscuit because it wouldn't be the right biscuit. That's right. they don't, the temperature up the bum, that would be about it. That's all you can do. So what I use where we had puppy classes and we had our pugs and we used to take our pugs. So you'd be teaching people to touch their feet, look with their mouths. with the Brachycephalus, how you're trying to crank that open. So over the years we saw the booming French Bulldogs as well. And that's another breed. They don't want their claws cut. They're going to scream the place down. And as a dog groomer, hear half a sheen high street, you know, screaming, they think you're killing their Frenchie. So you're trying to open that door that there's just not enough given, not enough. speaker-0: go. It doesn't open the angle that you need to turn the head at means that they can't breathe. We really struggled to take bloods from brachycephalic dogs. ⁓ so the things people know about brachycephalic dogs. Well, actually some of them don't know they get them and they don't know the breathing difficulties, the intervertebral disc disease that we're seeing with Frenchies. They go off the back legs. They're paralyzed. IVDD. Yeah, that's it. ⁓ what? speaker-1: So they don't know. What is it we call that? it IVDD? speaker-0: Do they know about hip problems? Maybe they know about the hip problems, allergies, infections, eye ulcers, ⁓ lot of one-eyed pugs around, ⁓ hearts. ⁓ But then there's other things like we can't take bloods from these dogs. A couple of reasons. I mean, we can, but it's Too much skin here. So we can't see or feel anything. And with order to take blood from a pet, we'd go for the jugular because it's a big vein. ⁓ You have to lift the neck. speaker-1: another lock-in. speaker-0: Now if you lift the neck with a brachycephalic dog, they cannot breathe. speaker-1: Well, one, you're probably going to put the neck out, especially when you've got those Frenchies that have got just a neck, aren't they? So where are your shoulders and things? you're going to put that out. So I know from a dog groomer, you'd have a Frenchie with to groom and naturally for safety, you would put a strap, you put a neck and clip them up onto your table. So you have a table and you have a bar across the top and you clip them up for safety and you do the back. But because you've got such delicate structure, although they look like a bulldozer, a JCB, You've got such a delicate structure because you don't with any way want to jerk or hurt that back of that neck. you've also got, because everyone talks about the flat face, but I, as kid, I had a riding accident and my horse had to go, so my folks bought me a King Charles Cavalier. You'll love that one. Yeah, I knew you'd like that. They've got loads of problems, they? They've got loads of problems as well. So what they've got is a soft palate. So the soft palate is not the same as having the smashed face. So you could have one or the other. If you're lucky, you could have both. speaker-0: Yeah, because they elongated. speaker-1: Yeah. So the poor Frenchies, a lot of them have got a soft palate. Yep. speaker-0: They've got elongated soft palate. They've got tiny nerves. So it's like breathing through the nose like this. ⁓ And we can repair this surgically, but it doesn't make the nasal passage any bigger. So yeah, they'll bow us. ⁓ They've got the saccules, which avert, which is just, they sit just next to the airway there and they like to pop out. think that's a bit more common with pugs than Frenchies. Yeah. And then the last thing is the tiny, tiny trachea. So speaker-1: us. That's more of a pug thing. speaker-0: I do bow ass surgery, I do a lot of it, ⁓ but it's never going to be 100 % effective because the trachea is the size of a pencil. speaker-1: How long have you been doing bar surgery for? speaker-0: 15 years. speaker-1: So when did Boas surgery first come about? speaker-0: gotta be around 20 years or so. But it used to be pugs because we didn't have the Frenchie boom then. So we did pugs. The thing I say, the difference between pugs and Frenchies, pugs, they might have these problems, they don't die young. They die of old age. I don't know how they get there, but they die of old age. Frenchies, there's a guy Dan up with the, I think he's up with the RCVS, obviously, mean, did some research. speaker-1: Then treat them like a baby. speaker-0: He's got a lovely paper out, not lovely, it's terribly harrowing. Average lifespan of a Frenchie around four years old. That's horrendous. And that we've done that we've bred that into them. They've got transitional vertebrae, hemi-vertebrae, whatever that leads to the disc problem. They become paralysed, which then people usually euthanize if they don't have the support care for them. speaker-1: That's frightening. Yeah. So with my Puggies, with my Puggy breed, had, with my first two, we had a lot of ⁓ anal gland problems, even with swapping food and things over. you're having to, and the more you have the anal glands done, seems to be more the end of having them done. And then we had the wobbly legs that my girl had, whereas my boy, which is a actual brother, he was walking on the day I had him put down, he was just over 16. He was still walking around trying to pee on everything, being mad. So he was fine. But she wasn't, I'd kept them as fit as a fiddle because we'd done agility and things. But they also, the one thing they did have as well is they had a ton of mast cell tumours between them. And we went mast cell tumour crazy. I was super, super lucky because the vet I was at at the time, I found them when they were small. I seemed to have an eye for it. And I watched this one of them growing during the, over the day. And she took it out with a certain amount of surround, it tested and then came back, you know, wasn't a nice thing to have. So then what we did was because you're looking at your finances every time you take these off and even back with the day, you're looking at, I think it was 180 or 200 pound ago, we were doing to have them off and have them tested. So what we would do is then we did a deal where I'd find them small. She would put a local anesthetic with, pug sitting on my lap. She'd take them off, take a certain amount of surround. And what we were aiming for was comfort. So I didn't want my pugs to be like 10, 12 years old with this big, huge lump hanging off the side. So it's impeding movement. speaker-0: only that they become ulcerated, become infected, bleeding, absolutely. speaker-1: Yep. Bleeding, weeping. Horrible. So we did a deal where she would just take them off with them sitting on my lap and we were good. And my girl had one on her face, like we were saying before, so that had to be under a general. And of course she lost her and then had to fight to get her back for me because they do not take an anesthetic well. They really don't. My boy, I always said that I was his, his, you know, breathing was bad. They both were really. But I never wanted the Boas surgery because I was brutal, it's brutal. And Lee at the time from Willett House with Hampton, the vet, he owned the practice at the time. And he said to me, he'd done Boas on his own dog. And I mean, you're talking over 15 years ago. It was so new, but nobody knew about it. And he had done his own dog. I think he had a dog de Bordeaux. And he said, I've done mine. Would you like me to do him? And I just, I was like, no, crack my pants, you're to kill him. No, I'm too scared. No. No, I'm too scared. speaker-0: Yeah. Which is a valid feeling. They are high risk for anesthesia. speaker-1: but what if he's with pain after the operation and he can't tell me and all his face is hurting and he's struggling? What do I do? Well, how do you make a decision? So with the night, I used to find that he's breathing, he'd stop and I would shake him and he'd jump up and he'd attack me or his sister. ⁓ it ⁓ up it up as I didn't have any choice. So we ended up, Wendy, the vet referred us to the RBC. ⁓ And it was the only place really to go at the time, unless I went to Lee. So went to the RBC and I walked into the RBC and the guy was fantastic. I think it was the first time I'd even seen an iPad. he said to me, said, I'm not doing that one. I'm at my girl. And I said, why? And he hadn't even scanned her. said, I can hear that hers is quite low down. He said, I'll kill that one if I do that one. And then he said, but I don't think she looks like a sporty racy pug. He said, so we won't bother. I said, yeah, you're right. She's not, he's not interested. She don't want to run around. She wants to be with a buggy. So then ⁓ he looks at my boy and he said, he's a good candidate. So he had him with and he did the surgery and he, like you said, he did the nose and the throat. And he said to me, it was well worth doing. And he got out a lot. So the best person to explain is what is it they do? I think I'll put my fingers with my ears at this point. is it they do? speaker-0: Yeah, so there's generally ⁓ three parts. So we go for the nose, we widen the nostril. So that's your first part. Your second part is the soft palate. So at the roof of the mouth is a hard bit and then a soft bit. And if that is too long, it's dingle dangling over the entrance of the trachea. literally you've got a hole for your trachea and it flaps over and it stops and they cannot get air with. So that's your second part so we just cut that short. speaker-1: bit would have been what was with my King Charles Cavalier as a kid. So when my King Charles Cavalier as a kid would go... ⁓ speaker-0: That's right. is that's it. Yep. Soft palate was dingle dangling over the entrance to the trachea and impeding breathing. ⁓ speaker-1: And then it's what did they used to call it? Reverse name. Death rolls. speaker-0: third is the saccules, which sit either side of the larynx here ⁓ and have inverted saccules instead of sitting there nicely and not getting with the way of the airway. They puff up and they cause an obstruction. So you can cut those out as well. speaker-1: It sounds the most fantastic design. How did we come up with this? speaker-0: squished. So what we did is we took a big long no ⁓ shepherd face ⁓ we squished it. And what we did when we were squishing is we didn't get rid of any of the tissues. We squished them as well so that they're all with the way and we just pushed them backwards. ⁓ It's horrendous. speaker-1: clever. I like the way that if you look at certain pugs as well from the side, the nose is actually inverted at the top. speaker-0: So this is another thing we have, dermatitis with those nasal folds. speaker-1: Tell me about that. Yes. The and the nine the ten. No one wants you cleaning it there. speaker-0: disgusting red and sore. reason I don't want you cleaning with this cause it's sore. So you can have a lot of cleaning wipes and just get with there with the folds and dry it out. But it's painful for them. They don't like it. speaker-1: same Frenchies as well that have had the... speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So that's another thing. I've nasal fold resection on dogs that have had such bad dermatitis that we can't keep on top of. We've actually cut that fold out horrendous surgery because you're operating on infected skin. Yeah. lot of wound breakdown afterwards infections. ⁓ then we've got the dogs that have this. I don't have enough skin yet. Maybe next year. speaker-1: Why buy your own? What's the problem with the Botox? You'd be able to do it. Yeah, so you can get the air with, get it dry out. And the smell, the manky smell that comes with there. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean that's yeast generally. we've got that. We've also got entropion, not so much with the Brackeys, they're more the face needs to come back up. some of the bulldog breeds. The entropion is the eyelids that roll inside. So if you imagine your eyelashes scratching your own cornea, that's an entropion. So I have to resect the eyelid to roll it back out. speaker-1: you remember years ago you used to see that with Golden Retrievers didn't ⁓ speaker-0: Yes. can also have the opposite where the eyelid is ectropion, where it's drooping down like the best with show at crafts, ironically has an eye condition. Anyway, droopy eyelid. Yep. So instead of sitting nicely along the eye, it's drooping down. It's not protecting the eye. So that's it. can actually operate to fix that as well, obviously. You'll resect the eyelid and pull it to go. speaker-1: Yeah. Can you imagine if your eyelashes are just scratching your eyes? speaker-0: It's horrendous. And this is one of the reasons. So that and the sticky out eyes that we've got so many one-eyed pugs. One-eyed Frenchies. ⁓ speaker-1: I ⁓ could, such a good idea so that you could. speaker-0: And you can go from corneal ulcer to eye loss within days. speaker-1: I've mastered eye ulcers. I've got really good eye speaker-0: I'm sure. How many eye ulcers did your pugs have? speaker-1: couldn't even count. I couldn't even count. also as a dog groomer, because I spent the last 10, 12 years dog grooming, I got really good because I'd had pugs spotting eye ulcers on other people's Frenchies and pugs. And you get a knack for seeing them. And you just see either the eyeball itself just has a little depression or there's just something that looks like it's with there, like a little cloudy. And you think that is going to blow up with your face. And they're so, so hard to treat. speaker-0: The other thing is the dogs don't like eye drops. So to then have to put eye drops with four, sometimes six or eight times a day, depending on the severity of the eye ulcer, that's an absolute nightmare. You've got a dog that can't breathe, dog that will not be restrained because they know they're all mine. speaker-1: trying to hold on to them to put the eye drops with and suffocate at the same time. ⁓ friend's Pukhatu Abis, had ⁓ I think is it a contact lens they use? ⁓ then they sew them shut. speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You can have, um, I've corneal grafts where I've taken a part of the cornea and stitched it to the, um, sorry, a part of the conjunctiva and stitched it to the cornea because the ulcer has been so deep that it wouldn't heal. It was at risk of rupturing. Um, I've there, I've also stitched it. It was, I think it was a cavalier ironically. Yeah. speaker-1: Frenchy. Those beautiful big eyes. speaker-0: Yeah. They've got quite big ones as well. Yeah. Um, I've done third eyelid flaps. So you pull the third eyelid and you stitch it closed over the eye. And what that does is protect the eyelid while the... And then the other thing you can do is actually put a contact lens onto the eye and that protects it while it hears as well. But it's, it's a lot. It is a lot. speaker-1: think that's what her pug looks It's a lot for the dog to go through and they can't tell you. Yeah, they can't tell you. mean, years and years ago, my mum's dog scratched the front of my eye and I can honestly tell you, I broke one or two teeth because I was grinding while I was sitting waiting at the hospital. It was so painful. Yeah. And then they had to flatten mine down and yeah. They glue it shut, don't they, for a couple of weeks. So I can tell you it hurts and they can't tell you it hurts. speaker-0: And it's painful. speaker-1: So what are we doing? How did we get, I don't understand how we got from when I had pugs like 15 years ago and there was me, the only lady wandering around like a nutter with a pug with a buggy with everyone thinking you're a fucking idiot. And then how did we get to this point here where we've got like 15, 18 years later where I'm looking at everyone's got some personage with a buggy. So how long did it take us to merely breathe this with? And why didn't we turn around all those years ago and think, do you know what, we need to breathe this out because the dogs are suffering, my bank balance is suffering. And like my friend said, I think I've got PTSD from owning a pug speaker-0: So I was going ask you, why are people owning them? Because we as vets, we think we're being loud about this. it's part of the reason I wanted you to come on and talk about it. We think we're being loud and we think we're saying no more Boas dogs, breed it out, stop breeding them, stop buying them. So we're not getting here. Why are people still having French Bulldogs? speaker-1: Very very feisty, knows her own mindy, well she leady. If I tell you not to do something. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I'll do it. speaker-1: Is that it? speaker-0: Do it at the detriment of an animal. speaker-1: Yeah, but then sometimes in life people say to you, don't smoke like my husband's smoking. Don't smoke. It's really bad for you or don't take drugs or don't drink or don't have like clear having all the bloody chocolate. And we, what is it in us? And when you look at pugs and you look at them online, you look at them on Facebook, Instagram and Tik Tok, and you see those eyes and those little puggy bodies and then people dress them up because also they're one of those very few breeds as well where you can put a They look bloody cute and they put up with it. I know but don't they look cute and don't they put up with it? speaker-0: I have a picture, my best friend, Jenny, she's an internal medicine specialist and ⁓ she, as vets do, we end up with the pets that get left, right? They get brought in for something and they get abandoned or signed over or somebody can't cope. we take them. So she had this one-eyed pug, obviously I had to have one eye as a vet stock called Penny. She was a legend Penny, but she had Penny around the time that had my first child. So what Jenny did was buy them both matching baby grows, which was great. And both of them says, drink till I pass. One said, I drink till I pass out. And the pug said, I eat till I pass out. Perfect. And the pug was great with the baby. It was a black one. Yeah. Yeah. They do love an outfit. The other thing we've, you'll always see vets piping up when we see advertising agencies using. speaker-1: That one's always more. Chase. speaker-0: Frenchies, pugs, bulldogs, all of the brachycephalic breeds. we, we then go on a rampage on Facebook. We all get in there with our spears and we say, take it down, it down, take it out, stop doing it. But they do tend to take them down. We've seen quite a few companies take down their adverts, but I think what I'm trying to say is if we could get them to stop doing it and people stop glamorizing the dogs. speaker-1: You're going to get it all back at you. speaker-0: then maybe people will stop wanting the dogs. It's like the year cropping in, in dobermans. We've seen, yeah, we've seen, you know, videos and films of people with their dogs with year cropping, ⁓ or influencers having them on their videos. And we come for them with our spears as well. And we say, get that down, get that down. That's illegal in the UK. You shouldn't have it. And most of the time they're like, but what's wrong with that? What's wrong with a bit of mutilation? They don't understand the problem with it. speaker-1: taping them up. speaker-0: But you can reach out to them, you can explain and you can ask them to stop glamorizing the situation. speaker-1: think with, I think with, Pugs is such a hard one. It's such a hard one because when I, it's like I told you about when I had the pet shop, you know, with the staffs and the American Bulldogs, everyone was like, ⁓ and people would come in and literally walk back out. They'd see one sitting there and they'd just walk back out. And they got such a bad rep, a bit like you're saying with the Dobermans and people, were they in a film, a horror film or something? And then people just saw them in a bad light and that sort of thing. Whereas the pugs, they draw you in with the eyes and the little bodies and stuff like that. But originally that is not even what they look like. speaker-0: No, I had an old time friend she brought into me a few years ago and it had a nose, it had longer fur. It was beautiful actually. Although it did have a ruptured cruciate ligament. I guess I wanted to. But still some problems with there. speaker-1: Did it get the cruciate ligament for a heavy breaking chase with a squirrel? speaker-0: We didn't work it out. It disappeared off somewhere and come back with a limp. So potentially it was an acute rupture rather than a degeneration. speaker-1: I noticed as well, cause you've got those little heavy bodies. So when they run after something like a ball or a squirrel, then they're breaking on all of that heavy muscular body. You've got a break on those four little limbs. you're putting so much strain through it. Wasn't it Paul Gascoigne that that's what he did? How did we get here? The other thing I was thinking about as well, when we were talking, you know, you were saying about what is it, why haven't people getting it? Because I don't think speaker-0: it. speaker-1: I know that when I had my first pugs, that we didn't have all the social media like we had now. So there was no one posting all the things that I was getting up to. So when my girl's back legs went, there was, you know, she didn't know what the back end was doing. So we had to get into a routine as well as I had to learn how to express myself. And it wasn't a thing that the vets were up on and stuff like that. So you had to ask around a few people. speaker-0: To be clear, you are having to manually empty her bladder because she's not able to do it herself. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Both things. So you would have to wee and poo your own dog. So you would have to work out a routine because if you don't get yourself into a routine, you're getting urinary tract infections all the time. And your antibiotics are only going to last for so long before it's just a reoccurring problem. And the dog's uncomfortable, they're not well. And I suppose people would then say, well, why you keeping them alive? Because when they're at... when they're not unwell and you've got all this going on, they're loving life. My girl was still like going after other dogs while I was grooming and barking and shouting at Spencer and I and just, you know, living the dream and doing her own thing, but without a pair of working back legs. But no, I haven't come across videos where you're getting people with pugs like I would have to do with poor old Spencer going, ⁓ my God. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I'd have to during the day, you know, you'd pick her up if we were inside, I could put her with the bath and I would manually wee her myself or I'd take her out and have wee her out, wee her myself and you'd have to poo her. But you would have to literally buy the clock so that you were remembering how many times a day and you would time yourself. My whole life ended up revolving around having to toilet. You know, they're like having, I suppose, I don't have kids, small disabled children. You're having to do these things for them and they're barking at you because they want food and water. because you've got the back end, the two legs are not working. You've got a dog that's scraping along the ground. they're more prone to more infection. Yeah. So I was so lucky. I never got any of that, but I think I was only lucky because of my background, because of my background where I'd had the pugs and I was with them 24 seven. Cause I have my own shop. speaker-0: and cavity wounds. speaker-1: And then because I then went into dog grooming and I was with a van and then I was with a shop. So I was again with them 24 seven. So I was keeping them clean and tidy myself. But I mean, the washing machine is on all the time. You've got wee pads around the place. You're having to remember, you know, to manually do it yourself. And then with my last girl, you'd have to find another trick. Cause that trick that worked on my first pug didn't work on my next pug. course. So my next part, was a case of, you turn on the water with the sink and you put with the backend and you're doing a bit of this and then we go away. But then the second one wasn't very good at having number twos. So you have to learn the trick with an ice cube to get them to do number twos. And a lot of people will be absolutely horrified, but because you've done it and you've done it for so long, it becomes your new normal until it's not, and they're not there anymore. And you're with this cycle of looking after them and making sure. You know, if they stop breathing during the night, you're waking up like that and you're, oh my God, are they dead? What are they doing? speaker-0: Can you remember Lulu's last day? speaker-1: ⁓ no, it's awful. speaker-0: catch on it a little bit because people need to know what's going to happen. speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I thought I'd completely fucked it. That was what I thought I'd done because with my first two, my first girl, I remember her and I took her to Christabel and we decided that it was her time and she had such a strong heart and we had to wait for her to pass. And I discussed everything with Christabel. She went through everything with me. She knew what drugs she was going to use, the way things were going to work and she gave them a sedative beforehand and it was just... It was just perfect. You couldn't have asked more. And then when my boy's time came and he was still mobile and wandering around, but his mind had gone. And then a few days before he'd had a fit at work and you don't know how long a dog's tongue is until they've had a fit and collapsed on the floor and the whole tongue has unraveled on the floor with front of you with your partner, who's a Chelsea supporting tattooed nutcase, having a meltdown next to you and help, you know, we're both trying to panic and not panic together. ⁓ giving each other as much support and trying to get this pug back up and running and hoping he's not going to die. And so I made the decision then, and I said to my vet at the time, the lovely, lovely Adam, I wanted him put down on the Friday mornings. He had the fit, I think on the Tuesday and I booked him with to put him down on the Friday. Cause I said, if I go through a weekend and he's like this and I don't get to see you or Christopher or Wendy and I've got to go to an out of hours vet. that is not going to go with my wishes or is going to take him away from me and you know, anything like that. I am literally going to lose my fucking mind because I've spent all these years with these dogs 24 seven, I will kill someone. So I took him personally with me on the Friday and as he gave him the sedative. speaker-0: your fear for out of hours that they're not going to. speaker-1: Yeah, they just won't take into account. Because I don't know them. I'm going to lose my mind. So my boy, he even with the sedative, he'd already gone. He'd gone. He just ready for it. He was just gone. And I was so lucky because my first one, was all, you know, particularly planned and we use, always use Spence and I always use Dignity, the pet crematorium. And you know, Kevin, you can't beat him. You can't beat him. So I took my girl down there and she was all booked with and I'd get her ashes back the same day. You know, it's just her with the little burny thing that they do and stuff. And I get it back the same day. And my boy, I hadn't booked him with. just was driving down there with a state upset and phoned them. ⁓ my God. She said, I'm so sorry we're fully booked. I said, you can't be. I was on the motorway. she said, no, no, no, I'll go and speak to the technician and she'll run me back. We'll fit you with. She said, you were only here a couple of weeks ago. And I said, I did, you know. So, yeah. And again, I've got him back the same day because I just couldn't leave them. It was just the worst. And then when Lulu's time came, I thought about it that week and you weren't with, you were with, I think you were going to be with on the Friday and I think it was on a Wednesday and you weren't there. And I'd already booked to see you on the Friday and I thought I'm going to discuss it with you to do it on the Friday because it was just coming. then she wasn't well with the morning and I'd popped down to see your girls and she'd had another urine-tractive vaccine and I just thought this, this... Or am I doing this for me or it's just, that's it now. speaker-0: sure we were struggling with her lungs as well at that point. speaker-1: was ⁓ just weren't right and she didn't see myself and I got her to work and she was heavy breathing. So I rung them up and I went straight back. But by the time she'd got with the car and I just, ⁓ I think I got to your place with about four minutes over Hampton Court Bridge and it's like I'm quite good at driving. ⁓ And I ⁓ on the wrong side of the road and I was apologizing to her all the way there because that's not how she was meant to die. She wasn't supposed to fucking go struggling. ⁓ hell. speaker-0: Definitely a couple of red lights. speaker-1: Yeah. So we got there and your girl, you know, looked at her for me and I said to her, look, I need you to give her a sedative because she's struggling. And she said, oh, and she said to me, she said, oh yeah, but she said it, uh, it might impede or I think, do put it, the next drug that I'm going to get her. And I said, Oh, don't give a shit. Yeah. Because yeah. And I did this downstairs and Lulu was upset at the time. I said, I just telling you now, because I had so much faith with Chris the bell and Adam. that's what they'd already done. So yeah, so she gave her the sedative and that was all of the breathing and everything settled down. And I set by her and she was gone. what a fucking stupid mistake of mine. I just timed it wrong. speaker-0: Yeah, but can't know, you know that. You couldn't have known. speaker-1: It's so hard, but I think because you, cause you put so much into it because you're caring for them so much. it's, is nobody understands it's 24 seven. ⁓ It's, it's definitely a pug thing and they get under your skin and how you look after them and all of their bloody health problems. And that was the other thing as well. think why I came to you because you kept saying to me, why aren't you on my payment? I dunno, planning thing. speaker-0: Yeah, it's lot. speaker-1: I said three or four times a week. I said to my husband, she's fucking mad. I've been down there three or four times this week. And it was like, was it 25 or 28 quid a month? And I said, and I've just, I'm down there all the bloody time. he said, I said, if she gets any more pug customers or Frenchy customers. speaker-0: We probably have to close down. speaker-1: You're to have to go on OnlyFans. It's not sustainable. What you doing? I was like, this is not business. This is madness. But it was more like old school veterinary. when Christabel was just Christabel and you'd go running with there and you're just like, go on, panic. speaker-0: The is, I don't do that. People won't come and they'll come too late. So I need to make veterinary medicine accessible. speaker-1: that are panicking about their finances and their... speaker-0: You said to me, no more pugs. speaker-1: ⁓ do you know what? As soon as people knew that I didn't have a pug. speaker-0: They started offering you pugs. remember. And you said, I need a break. It was too much. It's been a lot. I'm traumatized. I need a break. speaker-1: I've a... PTSD, my friend said. Well, I ended up with ⁓ this, I think it's because you're running literally, I think you're running on stress where you're looking after them all the time. Cause you're constantly worried about them from, you know, people talk about the heat. It's not just the heat. So they overheat really quickly. So then you get a car with air conditioning. So you, you raid your bank account, you buy a car that's got bloody good air conditioning. It's a climate control you had to go for. But the trouble then is as you go to get with your car, You walk up the road from work and saying goodbye to the idiot you just worked with. You walk up the road and then you have to sit there for five or 10 minutes because even though you wrapped your car with silver, it's too hot for pugs to go with. So when I was grooming, I'd have to soak pugs with water, pugs with a buggy, trot up the road to where I'd parked my Honda, sit with the Honda, sit underneath a tree outside the church with the cool. speaker-0: Yeah, it's so hard. speaker-1: and wait for the car to cool down. So you're waiting for five to 10 minutes for the car to cool down. So then you're putting pugs with this car and you're thinking, is it cool enough? So then you're stuck with the traffic on the A316 with the sun coming through, with the sun coming through and then people next to you start going, ⁓ man, I'm so sorry. So then you're driving along, trying to hold the silver screen things that you usually wrap the whole car with, with front of pugs to keep pugs cool. because now pugs are getting cooked by the sun coming through the window. And you're like, oh my God. And you don't realize until afterwards, when you think about it two years later, think, oh my, was I just mad then? What just happened to me then? Did I get stuck with this mad thing I was doing? What was I doing? And then you think, I can't go with a long car, Jenny, because what if I break down and then I'm waiting for the AA and it's too hot with the weather and they're going to die. So you can't go anywhere. I'm not going on holiday because I can't. could you get someone to look after them? So my friend Karen and my lovely, lovely friend Lucy, they looked after them for me for like one or two nights at a time when I didn't have any choice and I had to leave them. And you're asking them to do what you would do, which is with the weeing and the pooing and the tablets and the cleaning the, the manky folds and the eye bogeys. how do you, so you can't go anywhere. Can you? So you find that your life starts to shrink smaller and smaller and smaller because you're constantly worried and then you're spending all your time looking after your little babies. And your finances are going as well because you, you're on special food cause they've got crystal. speaker-0: special food, urine tests, a of steroids now and again to help these problems. Just, ⁓ urine retention usually empty the weewees. speaker-1: Why do they get crystals? So you got kidney stones and urinary crystals. Everyone's getting too fat because now no one can walk because everyone's back legs are falling apart. So then the weight issue, which is not helping with the breathing, which is not helping with the poor little heart. you're like, how, but how did we from when I first, my pugs, I had them all those years ago and they lasted till 16 and you think I had them like 10, 15 years ago. speaker-0: diet related. That's right. speaker-1: Fuck, did no one breathe this shit out then. You have had. speaker-0: No, they've it with and speaker-1: Why did you not sort this out? were what was everybody doing with the interim? speaker-0: Claire, before we wrap up, anything else on your list you want to cover? Just see if there's something you want to bring up. speaker-1: Why does people... So I had a quick look on the Kennel Club. Pug registrations have dropped by 36%, but Google's telling me that there's been a surge with pug sales online. So it's got to be where people are not registering with the Kennel Club. So unfortunately they're still breeding them, they? So they're not breeding them regulated. ⁓ who's checking on what's going on with the health? That's handy then, isn't it? So we're making it all better. speaker-0: We're quick to ban breeds like XL bullies, but not ban breeds based on health problems. speaker-1: Why don't, why aren't my pugs now? I was so. speaker-0: Netherlands have banned breeds. They banned Charles Cavaliers. speaker-1: They have their band pugs. How King Charles Cavalier. My first breed. What's wrong with me? Why do I keep having these dogs? speaker-0: I remember which countries, just band sphinxes and Scottish fold cat. They choose on health issues. speaker-1: haven't just got brachycephalic smashed up faces and soft palates dogs. ⁓ Now we're so clever, we're putting with cats. I saw that. Why are we doing this? I just don't, I don't understand the logic. Is it because if you're told not to do something, you're just going to do it anyway? Cause you think speaker-0: and rabbits. Yeah. I just don't know if people believe like, ⁓ I've had people bring with Frenchies and they just either they didn't research the health conditions. just honestly, they just didn't know. They just brought the dog with and they say, well, we saw these dogs. They're beautiful. We liked them. We wanted one. And I have to tell them about all the health conditions. See it and they don't believe. speaker-1: Sometimes I just don't believe. the other one that we haven't touched. Yeah. Luckily I had the rescues. was my get out when people used to say to me when was with I'll rescue them. Cause you feel generally, you feel so bad and you being judged one for them having them with a buggy. And then later on with life for actually having them when other people become aware of how much they suffer. The one thing we haven't touched on is King Charles Cavaliers. What did we do to them? speaker-0: It's a rescue person. speaker-1: We made a brain too big for a skull. Yeah. I can't pronounce that. I know it as SM and what do you know it as? SM. So their brain is too big for the skull and it starts to knock on the skull, doesn't it? So you get symptoms, including the scratching, head. How, how did we do that? And one of my friends told me a couple of years ago that she believes with talking to people, cause that's her breed, is that that is now with all of them. speaker-0: syringe or myelia. Malformation. Yeah. speaker-1: that with the UK that you've got, it's so widespread that, mean, I don't think there's an actual physical test, a DNA test for it, is there? speaker-0: We MRI scan them. That's the gold standard for diagnosis. It's just you miss there. speaker-1: But if someone was going to breed, know, just assume. how, but that they've got such a history behind them. They've got such ancestry. These breeds have got such ancestry and such history. what have we done? I'm such a disservice. What have we done? I love pugs. I love King Charles Cavaliers. What the hell have we done? And now you've got this new innate, what's it they call it? Innate animal health assessment thing that's going to come up. I mean, if anyone wants to look into that Beverly Cudditt dogs today, she's just on top of it. ⁓ there's just them and the Green Party just want to ban us from having pets because they think that we just, all of us are just irresponsible and bred these dogs. know, when you, when you use this health assessment tool they're coming out with, you won't be having pugs and Frenchies, you know, and you wouldn't have sausage dogs because the backs and the legs and the dandy dimwants and really old breeds would be completely extinct as well. Some that I, you know, I was a health problems with a dandy, want you ever see them. They're amazing little dogs with some funky haircuts. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, and then skin condition on again speaker-1: Do you know with this health assessment tool they wouldn't pass? Westies and skin conditions. Do remember they always get wet eczema? What else do they get? I don't think there's... speaker-0: They do. Westies get cruciate ligament problems. I'm orthopedic surgeon either. get a lot of ear infections, allergies. speaker-1: Is that because they're quite chunky and... Yeah. They're very itchy. They're an itchy breed, aren't they? What have we done? We've taken all this time, haven't we, to breed it with. And I'm looking at the list. So I came across a note when I was looking and having a think about this and online it put down as Yorkshire Terriers were coming up as being flat-faced, brachycephalic. And I was like, I wouldn't class them as that. I would class them as soft palate, but not speaker-0: or list what else. No, Yorkshire Terriers are not brachycephalic. They have horrendous teeth, but they're not brachycephalic. Yeah, they definitely will. speaker-1: Yeah, but they've Yeah, they'll outlive their own tea. As a kid, there was a friend at school, my parents used to drop me off around her house and she had about 20, I think was 21 or 28 Yorkshire Terriers used to breed them and their whole house was just small barking, biting machines. And those things used to live for 20 odd years and they would just go on and on. And I was used to think, they're amazing. They're just going on forever. you know, and they didn't ever seem to have anything wrong with them. But I remember them having the same as the King Charles Cavaliers did. Whereas they had the soft palate with the... And I mean, when you think about it now, you think when we got the cavalier, the breeder was showing us how to stop that. But you don't even think to yourself, do you? When you're like, how old was I at the time? speaker-0: I think people just think this is part of the breed. This is what I do to stop it. that's just not, I shouldn't get this breed because it has this condition. It's just, this is the breed I want. has this condition and this is what I'm going to do. speaker-1: You just cracked As a horse person, logically as a horse person, a horse person would just think, no, shoot that, no. Would wouldn't you? You're not going to be able to ride and jump and do dressage and things you want to do and race. So you'll be like, What is that? And I remember them saying, oh yeah, what you've got to do is take the head and crush the head against the chest. So it elongates and then it'll stop them doing it. Or you pitch across the nose because then they take a gulp of air. And it like hits the reset button. Yeah, but I've, I've found now that I've been out with the park, walking with the park over the last couple of years, and I've come across some doodle mixes that have been walking along going, and I had to say to them is, excuse me. And do you know that that shouldn't be doing that? And they're like, ⁓ he always does it. speaker-0: Yeah. Right. Exactly. get this. Well, it always does this. That doesn't mean it's normal and it doesn't mean it's okay. speaker-1: damage are they doing by letting them carry on continuing to do that? speaker-0: I mean, the other alternative is surgery. So surgery is not to be taken lightly, but probably should be done more often. speaker-1: But so people are saying, ⁓ but doodle mixes, they're going to be much healthier. speaker-0: No, if you speak to behaviors, they're not really keen on the doodle mixes. A lot of behavioral issues. speaker-1: How do you know what you're getting? How does anyone know? I'll tell you what, I'm going to breed that and that, and I'm going to get this perfect. You could have, you could have like perfect adults and then you get some duff kid. How do they know to do it with dogs? What strain that they're going to get? How did, I don't understand how we've got here. What is it we're doing? ⁓ we've just gone mad. That's what it is. We've just gone. speaker-0: Gonna wrap it up soon, Clare. Pick your first questions. This is the... speaker-1: How else have we got on air? did I, I was saying to you, yeah, that's, I never told you before. So when you were talking about me, I've got my COPE diploma. So with a Centre of Applied Pet Ethology, my tutor was Peter Neville. And then I was lucky to train with Karen and then with Sarah Whitehead. But ⁓ my favourite doggy person is Angela Stockdale. So she's like ⁓ the doggy trainer's like secret passion. I think that's how I see her. And she's just the loveliest, loveliest, loveliest person. And she uses stooge dogs with her behavior work. So she'll read, she can read her own dogs. So she uses her own dogs to read other people's dogs. And I originally had staffs and didn't get on with other dogs and ended up down with her at Devon. And I used to stay with a field. with her caravan with a field and used to work my dogs with her. And she always had Malamutes and she likes it. She likes her dog. She's just got a new dog actually. She likes her dogs to be what I would call like basic. Yeah. A dog. Yeah. And she can read her dogs and she works all around the UK and Italy and stuff like that. And she used to do a lot of work at Battersea and with the RSPCA. And I used to take my staffs along. as a stooge. I knew my dog, she knew her dogs and I knew my dogs didn't get along with other dogs. So what I could do is I could do watch me with my dogs and I could walk with and out of other dogs. And when we said enough, my dog would then turn around, see the other dogs. And yeah, but as long as we were connected with the training and the one-to-one going on, I was fine. But you had to be switched on all the time. And when I wasn't switched on, muzzle would go on and... speaker-0: sounds like me when I walk my Ikea. speaker-1: Yeah, you have to be on, but you don't realize how much effort and time it's taken and you have to be constantly with the zone. And that's the same with pugs with the health and everything else. You're constantly with that moment. And when you come out of it, you need, I've had like a two year break now from my last bug. You don't realize how emotionally exhausting it is because you're looking after this poorly person. And you're constantly managing, you know, ⁓ no, if I was here now and wandering around, I'd be thinking, ⁓ don't bang your eyes on that table or don't bang into that. You're going to hurt yourself. You're constantly, yeah. You're constantly worrying about your eyes and things or having accidents on the carpet. So everyone's got pants and things on. It's just a full, full time, full time job. it will definitely still have bugs, but can you fix it? speaker-0: Don't try and jump up on my left. Cheers. speaker-1: ⁓ that was the other thing with pet insurance, pet insurance for pugs. mean, Christabel told me years ago, just get a bank account, throw all your money with the bank account. Work it out as we go along. So I did have pet insurance when I had my per se Boas surgery all those years ago, it cost me 1200 quid and I went to the RBC with some cash and my credit card and crying and it was 1200 quid. How much is it now from Boas surgery? Or anywhere? What's it now? speaker-0: the RVC. I reckon you're looking at around 2000 as a good deal. speaker-1: Some people have told me they've paid five, maybe six. speaker-0: Yes. If you go into referral, you're probably talking, I'd say a minimum of 4,000 up to 8,000 pounds for that. speaker-1: Do you think insurance companies, because I've been out of this game for two years, are insurance companies going to cover that or are they going to get to a point where they say, do you know what, you lot, you're just making it more difficult for yourself. speaker-0: Moment they're still covering. speaker-1: When do you think that they still won't? speaker-0: I, well, insurance itself has become an unaffordable for some people, particularly for dogs, which are bred with health problems. that's another thing people don't look at before they get the dog is a quote on the insurance. So if you have a pug or a Frenchie or maybe even a Dax and or, know, these kinds of dogs that we know that have health issues, your insurance premium will be higher. speaker-1: Shades companies are not daft. speaker-0: Yeah. Crossbreed or yeah, absolutely. Boxers. Pricy. speaker-1: It's about risk, isn't it? So for them. I used to love boxes, but the amount of boxes, I don't think I've seen one with a long time. speaker-0: I have a few beautiful boxes that come to the vet station. speaker-1: to groom one with barns. He was amazing. He jumping the bath with my van. He was beautiful. I haven't seen one with years, but all the ones that I did see got cancer, died early. speaker-0: problem you got to watch it, got to be on your toes looking for lumps and bumps and act on them quickly. speaker-1: How did they end up with genetics again? we do this? Okay. We probably did, didn't we? Let's put it as that then. What else do have? We've done tumor, something pacing. That was what it's called when they do that with the legs, isn't it? Pacing, done soft pallets. speaker-0: Yeah. I probably did. speaker-1: What else was there? Honestly, cause otherwise, cause I've got brain like a sieve, because HRT going through all this and then I tell you what, I've got a heart complaint. So I got a heart complaint and had to heart surgery during lockdown. I, my father who's hiding over there with the corner, he's had, he had wolf parkinson white, which you might know what that is. And he had heart surgery, donkey's years ago. think they tried it out on him all those years ago. And then, then I had to have similar thing, but I honestly, honestly think it was the stress of going through, like when my first two, because I was full on, I loved them so much. When they pass away, I said to my husband, I literally, I think my heart's just broken. I swam. I promise you. I'm okay. That's what finished me off the first time. So then I had to have heart surgery during lockdown and they They don't seem to know why they just, my heart races and gets stuck and jumps about and pisses around. speaker-0: Well on that note... speaker-1: collars and harnesses. speaker-0: Yeah, it depends on the condition. speaker-1: So if you've got a pug, you can be really lucky because you can't put a collar on because you've got a soft palate and you've probably got a massive neck and a tiny slip out. But then if you put harness on because you've got this little body and then if they've got a heart problem, I found that they would then rub and then they didn't like it on their poor little hearts. A fuggie buggy. Oh, cold weather. People say it's hot weather. I nearly forgot cold weather. Cold weather. speaker-0: of it. That's why they need a buggy. Yeah. speaker-1: It's as much of a killer for pugs, I think, as hot weather. I'm lucky I've, well, my pugs were, I've got Reynolds. So Reynolds is when I go out with the cold and it affects my circulation. I think that's what it is. And my heart, and it's really painful and it slows me down. So I can't go out with the cold. So when I had pugs, the pugs and I would, oh, it's a bit cold. We'll have to go out later. So I'd have to put hot water bottles with their buggy and blankets and tuck them with like a madwoman. And that would be just even to get them from the car to the shop or wherever I was going because the cold is just as bad for brachy breeds as hot weather, isn't it? But nobody tells you that, do they? When has anyone said to you, ⁓ yeah, the cold is gonna kill all these Frenchies and pugs off? speaker-0: They were just like a lukewarm climate. They don't like the rain either. speaker-1: But yeah, oh, there's so many, isn't there? What else have we got? What else did I want to ask you? Look, I had about 11 or 13 pages. Just to check. That's it, look. We've done everything. We're so good. Women with HRT have to have this. Honestly, or more HRT. speaker-0: Yeah. Claire, you have a lot of stories, amazing as all my- speaker-1: It's rubbish. If you wait till Clayton and I get chatting. Coming. Love you. Really appreciate it. speaker-0: Thank you for. It's you. speaker-1: Done. Done.